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View Full Version : Why do enchantment anymore when you can just do necro?



redoubt
07-22-2014, 11:34 AM
Some background on my caster playing to help frame my question:
Back near launch I played an enchant spec'd drow sorc (when they first came out.) I played this as one of a couple main characters all the way up through the introduction of Gianthold (not the epic one), through the Vale, through the Vale, through the Vale (it was cap for a long time), through the initial epics when you would use mass hold and crit fish firewalls.

Back in the day I would also charm masses of monsters and have them follow me through the dungeon. This was "fixed".
Back in the day I would throw mass hold monster and everyone would get autocrits on the held monsters. This was "fixed".
Even per the wiki charmed monsters only last a fraction of the time due to the epic ward.
From game play, it appears to me that holds are saved against much quicker in epic than heroic as well.

So when I add all this up, it does not appear the crowd control is a good first function on a wizard anymore. The only thing I have found to boost enchant DC to possibly put it higher than a necro DC is a bard past life for +1 enchant. (Or, you could be conjuration spec'd and do 3 cleric past lives for +3 conjuration; but then you are stuck with just web and I don' t know how effective that is.)

On the necro side a dead mob is dead. No one has to go beat it down while it is dancing or held.

I am currently playing a PM (had not done one yet, so I thought I'd check it out.) I did a necro spec with enchant as secondary. At level 22 I pretty much just kill stuff and through a mass hold if FOD, circle and wail are all on cooldown; I run past the held mobs and let the non casters deal with the held mobs while I run ahead. I really see no reason to do it otherwise. I know that I do have some tendency to zerg, but I'm not hardcore about it and I still do optionals in most quests, but I don't twiddle my thumbs either.

I think that CC is more fun for the rest of the team, but I don't see the current game as making that a good choice. Back when held mobs were autocrit'd even my healer cleric had the fancy heavy picks from the lordsmarch chain and everyone got in the on the held mob craze. I just don't see the advantage in CC as a primary spec anymore.

Now I realize that there are combinations of things that I only find when someone on the forums leads me to them. This is me asking for that lead. What makes CC a good primary spec in todays EE game? (Even as a secondary spec I can hold stuff on EH when I want to.)

Thrudh
07-22-2014, 12:10 PM
Most monsters have lower will saves than fort...

Wail and Circle of Death only kill a few monsters at a time... Mass CC in quests where you are attacked by 20-40 mobs at once is extremely useful.

50% more damage for that blitzer next to you or that guy using Furyshot is huge...

And CC is a lot of fun in a group.

My wizard's Necro and Enchant DC are about the same (maybe 1-2 difference)... I like being able to use both styles depending on the quest and the group.

Enoach
07-22-2014, 01:11 PM
Yes, charm type spells don't last as long (personally I think that has less to do with DCs as it does something done to saves in general)

Enchantments like Mass Hold's are great way of getting an Extra 50% damage as well as preventing incoming damage. When you can prevent attacks it means less resources restoring your own HP as well as party members restoring theirs.

At epic levels with enchantment you have the following options

1. Stop Mobs - Let Party beat them down
2. Stop Mobs - Use AoE damage effect like Draconic Blast
3. Stop Mobs - Use Necro Spells to kill large groups and pick off what is left standing
4. Stop Mobs - Use Sharadi type effects keeping the crowd together to maximize spells like Chain Missile

Again this is a great equalizer based on Mob Count vs. Party count and while it may appear more spells are being cast, it is usually on the healing end where the resource savings occur.

unbongwah
07-22-2014, 02:32 PM
Not every mob can be instakilled; many have (epic) death ward. Enchantment spells rely on Will saves while Necro relies on Fort; and as stated, many mobs have weaker Will than Fort saves. Wail of the Banshee has a 60-sec. CD and PWK is 210 secs.; Disco Ball is 11 secs. and Mass Hold is only 5 or 6 secs, so you can spam them a lot more often. Helplessness is an automatic +50% dmg taken from all sources, more if you have Sense Weakness or No Mercy.

But if you're a Pale Master, you're already 9/10 of the way to being a good Enchanter as well, since you invested in Spell Pen; then it's just a question of whether you invest in Enchantment Archmage and how many SF:Enchant feats you pick up (if any). So do both! :)

Bridge_Dweller
07-22-2014, 02:43 PM
Because wail has a timer?

Mass-hold + energy burst = piles of dead mobs.

ChemE
07-22-2014, 04:08 PM
Try doing EE Belly of the Beast without CC and get back to me. It's still a very useful part of the game in quests with large mobs. Plus, a held mob, sense weakness and one of the Draconic spells is win.

bsquishwizzy
07-25-2014, 01:18 PM
Some background on my caster playing to help frame my question:
Back near launch I played an enchant spec'd drow sorc (when they first came out.) I played this as one of a couple main characters all the way up through the introduction of Gianthold (not the epic one), through the Vale, through the Vale, through the Vale (it was cap for a long time), through the initial epics when you would use mass hold and crit fish firewalls.

Back in the day I would also charm masses of monsters and have them follow me through the dungeon. This was "fixed".
Back in the day I would throw mass hold monster and everyone would get autocrits on the held monsters. This was "fixed".
Even per the wiki charmed monsters only last a fraction of the time due to the epic ward.
From game play, it appears to me that holds are saved against much quicker in epic than heroic as well.

So when I add all this up, it does not appear the crowd control is a good first function on a wizard anymore. The only thing I have found to boost enchant DC to possibly put it higher than a necro DC is a bard past life for +1 enchant. (Or, you could be conjuration spec'd and do 3 cleric past lives for +3 conjuration; but then you are stuck with just web and I don' t know how effective that is.)

On the necro side a dead mob is dead. No one has to go beat it down while it is dancing or held.

I am currently playing a PM (had not done one yet, so I thought I'd check it out.) I did a necro spec with enchant as secondary. At level 22 I pretty much just kill stuff and through a mass hold if FOD, circle and wail are all on cooldown; I run past the held mobs and let the non casters deal with the held mobs while I run ahead. I really see no reason to do it otherwise. I know that I do have some tendency to zerg, but I'm not hardcore about it and I still do optionals in most quests, but I don't twiddle my thumbs either.

I think that CC is more fun for the rest of the team, but I don't see the current game as making that a good choice. Back when held mobs were autocrit'd even my healer cleric had the fancy heavy picks from the lordsmarch chain and everyone got in the on the held mob craze. I just don't see the advantage in CC as a primary spec anymore.

Now I realize that there are combinations of things that I only find when someone on the forums leads me to them. This is me asking for that lead. What makes CC a good primary spec in todays EE game? (Even as a secondary spec I can hold stuff on EH when I want to.)


All things being equal, in EE Necro and Enchantment are essentially useless unless you have an astronomically high DC. Both are subjected to unbelievably high saves, and spell resistance. You have to push the envelope in the same areas, and use debuffs liberally, to make both effective.

What gimps Necro even worse, however, is the prolific use of Deathward and Epic Ward. You can say goodbye to all of your instakills at that point. They are difficult to dispel (one cannot be dispelled at all, I believe), and render many of the advantages you cited for Necro totally useless. However, this does NOT defend them from disco balls…

But, let’s skip EE, and look at heroic.

Instakills are nice, but they have definite disadvantages. Wail is a great AoE, but has some distinct disadvantages. First, the mobs need to come within striking range for it to take effect, and it doesn’t work right away. So they’re going to get a couple of licks in before they die.

Circle of Death is not as powerful as Wail and FoD, and it is highly situational to use. Mobs have to be standing still while it is cast and takes effect – not really all that easy to come by in most situations.

Your top-drawer Instakill – Power Word: Kill – has a M-A-S-S-I-V-E-L-Y long cool-down. Works great. But don’t gamble your life on it being there when you need it. In some ways it’s like a duel between a guy with a semi-automatic pistol, and a musket.

So, all things considered, your instakills are only going to be about 50% effective in stopping mobs in their tracks before they get close enough to start playing kickball with your skull.

Enchantment, on the other hand, has a number of ranged spells with long durations. That gives you more than enough time to drop a couple of AoEs on the incapacitated mobs…from a nice, safe distance. Plus, you can use pinch-points in terrain to maximize the effectiveness of your CC. You really can’t do that with Necro all that much.

And remember, both spell schools are in the same basic boat. Both are subject to spell resistance, both have distinct saving throws, both have mobs are are immune to their effects. The only advantage necro really has, in this instance, is being able to hold or charm undead. The only CC spell I can think of in Necro that controls the living is Ghoul Touch, and you gotta be within striking distance to use it.

And while Necro is highly desired for neg-leveling opponents as a means of “debuffing,” I’ve found that Cloudkill is WAY better in this regard. CON damage in the cloud is a great way to disable mobs, and it is a little more cost effective overall. Coupled with something like a disco ball and/or Ice Storm, it does a number on mass groups of monsters converging on your position.

In the end, however, its knowing the limitations of the tools you use that make you an effective caster. I almost ALWAYS have Enchantment as either my first or second spell line for many of the reasons I described above. I personally don’t think one is more powerful than the other. That can be brutal when used together.