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View Full Version : Anyone see Keavaa's blog post on Improved Deception?



shawnvw
07-14-2014, 01:08 AM
I've seen links on several websites to Keavaa's blog about using Improved Deception with ranged weapons. Unfortunately, that particular blog seems to be inactive now. Can anyone tell me (or give me their assumptions) about what it said (other than "I.D. really rocks!")?

Also, I understand that you can get Deception and Improved Deception on non-weapon items, which stack with the Deception on a weapon. What non-weapons have it?

Thanks.

Scrabbler
07-14-2014, 01:11 AM
Ring of Lies and Golden Guile.

BOgre
07-14-2014, 02:01 AM
Backstabber's Gloves

blerkington
07-14-2014, 02:20 AM
Hi,

Apart from what's already mentioned above, the Dragon Masque has deception and the Seal of House Avithoul has improved deception.

The wiki is useful for finding out which items have a certain property, although it is not always 100% complete.

Thanks.

cru121
07-14-2014, 02:39 AM
Hmm, someone broke the categorization for Deception items on the wiki. Let's see if I can fix it, or at least escalate it.

Saekee
07-14-2014, 07:49 AM
in the past, for throwers, a deception weapon in the offhand procced on the mainhand. That was not working recently

Aganthor
07-14-2014, 07:51 AM
I have a Golden guile (http://ddowiki.com/page/Golden_Guile) on my thrower and it does work. It slows them down a bit when their trying to reach you.

Saekee
07-14-2014, 08:16 AM
I have a Golden guile (http://ddowiki.com/page/Golden_Guile) on my thrower and it does work. It slows them down a bit when their trying to reach you.

yes, the non-weapon sources of deception are correctly working for throwers--just not in the offhand

Nodoze
07-30-2014, 05:07 AM
Hmm, someone broke the categorization for Deception items on the wiki. Let's see if I can fix it, or at least escalate it.Any progress with this?

From the above list I found the following have deception:
- Backstabber's Gloves (http://ddowiki.com/page/Backstabber%27s_Gloves) (ML:12-14);
- Ring of Lies (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Ring_of_Lies) (ML:13);
- Dragon Masque (http://ddowiki.com/page/Dragon_Masque) (ML:28);

From the above list I found the following have Improved Deception:
- Golden Guile (http://ddowiki.com/page/Golden_Guile) (ML:17);
- Epic Golden Guile (http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Golden_Guile) (ML:20);
- Seal of House Avithoul (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Seal_of_House_Avithoul) (ML:21);
- Backstabber's Gloves (http://ddowiki.com/page/Backstabber%27s_Gloves) (ML:23-25);

In theory you could have various levels of deception on both weapons and also be wearing up to 5 deception items in various slots (Head, Neck, Gloves, Ring1, Ring2).

My vague memory is that I have read various things in multiple thread indicating something like the following:
- Deception on weapon procs when that weapon is used;
- For throwers Deception on off-hand weapons used to work for thrown weapon but doesn't currently;
- 1st Deception on items stacks though additional items with Deception on them do not stack;
- 1st Improved Deception on items stacks though additional items with Improved Deception on them do not stack;

Does anyone know what the stacking rules for Deception are?

cru121
07-31-2014, 02:40 AM
Any progress
You can track the issue here: http://ddowiki.com/page/Template_talk:Dmg

Nodoze
07-31-2014, 07:08 AM
You can track the issue here: http://ddowiki.com/page/Template_talk:DmgThanks. When the template is fixed I will help add back categories when I come across things that are missing/incorrect though my wiki skills still have a long ways to go...

cru121
08-01-2014, 11:55 PM
One of the ideas behind using templates and stuff is that you don't have to add categories manually, but they automatically appear. Anyway, in this case, the magic is done, and the category http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Deception_items is populated.

Nodoze
08-02-2014, 12:20 AM
One of the ideas behind using templates and stuff is that you don't have to add categories manually, but they automatically appear. Anyway, in this case, the magic is done, and the category http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Deception_items is populated.Very cool. That turned out really nice.

Nodoze
08-02-2014, 12:23 AM
Are the following stacking rules for Deception correct? :

My vague memory is that I have read various things in multiple thread indicating something like the following:


- Deception on weapon procs when that weapon is used;
- For throwers Deception on off-hand weapons used to work for thrown weapon but doesn't currently;
- 1st Deception on items stacks though additional items with Deception on them do not stack;
- 1st Improved Deception on items stacks though additional items with Improved Deception on them do not stack;

blerkington
08-02-2014, 06:09 AM
Hi,

The Ring of Deceit from FoT also has improved deception.

Thanks.

Nodoze
08-02-2014, 07:57 AM
Hi,

The Ring of Deceit from FoT also has improved deception.

Thanks.Thanks. Now that the categorization is working again it is listed on the wiki page under the Improved Deception section:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Deception_items

blerkington
08-02-2014, 08:01 AM
Thanks. Now that the categorization is working again it is listed on the wiki page under the Improved Deception section:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Deception_items

Hi,

Nice work, thank you. It is a very useful resource.

Take care.

Nodoze
08-03-2014, 05:28 AM
Hi,

Nice work, thank you. It is a very useful resource.

Take care.Thanks but the credit really goes to Zav & Cru121 on DDOWiki (same Cru121 on the DDO forums).

jakeelala
08-12-2014, 10:01 AM
Rebellion is Weapon based Improved Deception
Backstabber Gloves have Imp. Deception on Epic and Heroic have regular Deception

Nodoze
08-12-2014, 10:41 AM
Rebellion is Weapon based Improved Deception
Backstabber Gloves have Imp. Deception on Epic and Heroic have regular DeceptionThanks. I double checked the wiki and it looks like it already properly reflects all 3 of those scenarios as of today (8/12/2014):

http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Deception_items

Category:Deception items
Jump to: navigation (http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Deception_items#mw-head), search (http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Deception_items#p-search)


Backstabber's Gloves (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Backstabber%27s_Gloves)
Backstabber's Gloves (Level 12) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Backstabber%27s_Gloves_%28Level_12%29)
Backstabber's Gloves (Level 13) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Backstabber%27s_Gloves_%28Level_13%29)
Backstabber's Gloves (Level 14) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Backstabber%27s_Gloves_%28Level_14%29)
Bow of the Jade Elf (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bow_of_the_Jade_Elf)
Dragon Masque (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Dragon_Masque)
Dream Edge (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Dream_Edge)
Epic Mirage (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Mirage)
Filthy Kukri (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Filthy_Kukri)
Miasma's Fang (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Miasma%27s_Fang)
Midnight Greetings (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Midnight_Greetings)
Mirage (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mirage)
Phiarlan Spy Dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Phiarlan_Spy_Dagger)
Polycurse Dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Polycurse_Dagger)
Rahl's Might (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Rahl%27s_Might)
Ring of Lies (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Ring_of_Lies)
Shadow Star (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Shadow_Star)
Tenebrous Stiletto (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Tenebrous_Stiletto)
Terror (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Terror)
Treason (weapon) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Treason_%28weapon%29)

[edit (http://ddowiki.com/edit/Category:Deception_items?section=1)] Deception V items



Magistrate's Scepter (Level 17) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Magistrate%27s_Scepter_%28Level_17%29)
Magistrate's Scepter (Level 18) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Magistrate%27s_Scepter_%28Level_18%29)
Magistrate's Scepter (Level 19) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Magistrate%27s_Scepter_%28Level_19%29)

[edit (http://ddowiki.com/edit/Category:Deception_items?section=2)] Deception VI items



Fell Shiv (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Fell_Shiv)
Fell Shiv (Level 25) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Fell_Shiv_%28Level_25%29)
Fell Shiv (Level 26) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Fell_Shiv_%28Level_26%29)
Fell Shiv (Level 27) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Fell_Shiv_%28Level_27%29)

[edit (http://ddowiki.com/edit/Category:Deception_items?section=3)] Deception VIII items



Magistrate's Scepter (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Magistrate%27s_Scepter)
Magistrate's Scepter (Level 26) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Magistrate%27s_Scepter_%28Level_26%29)
Magistrate's Scepter (Level 27) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Magistrate%27s_Scepter_%28Level_27%29)
Magistrate's Scepter (Level 28) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Magistrate%27s_Scepter_%28Level_28%29)

[edit (http://ddowiki.com/edit/Category:Deception_items?section=4)] Improved Deception items



Agony, the Knife in the Dark (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Agony,_the_Knife_in_the_Dark)
Backstabber's Gloves (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Backstabber%27s_Gloves)
Backstabber's Gloves (Level 23) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Backstabber%27s_Gloves_%28Level_23%29)
Backstabber's Gloves (Level 24) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Backstabber%27s_Gloves_%28Level_24%29)
Backstabber's Gloves (Level 25) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Backstabber%27s_Gloves_%28Level_25%29)
Epic Golden Guile (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Golden_Guile)
Epic Midnight Greetings (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Midnight_Greetings)
Epic Phiarlan Spy Dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Phiarlan_Spy_Dagger)
Golden Guile (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Golden_Guile)
Rebellion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Rebellion)
Ring of Deceit (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Ring_of_Deceit)
Ring of Lies (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Ring_of_Lies)
Seal of House Avithoul (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Seal_of_House_Avithoul)

Nodoze
08-12-2014, 10:50 AM
While the wiki site listing which items/weapons have which versions of Deception is looking really good, the rules regarding what layers of Deception stack is still murky...

The following is the best I have come across thus far:

Are the following stacking rules for Deception correct? :

My vague memory is that I have read various things in multiple thread indicating something like the following:


- Deception on weapon procs when that weapon is used;
- For throwers Deception on off-hand weapons used to work for thrown weapon but doesn't currently;
- 1st Deception on items stacks though additional items with Deception on them do not stack;
- 1st Improved Deception on items stacks though additional items with Improved Deception on them do not stack;

Currently I am running in Heriocs with HE Backstabber gloves & Golden Guile and in the Epic levels I am still using my HE Backstabber gloves & Golden Guile (and trying to farm the mats for an Epic Golden Guile). I can really notice a difference and the mobs turn around a lot while chasing me...

If I was able to confirm that multiple items with the same ability stack I would want to try to get them on as many slots as possible as it is crazy how much they seem to proc as it is with the high rate of fire on a properly build Shuriken thrower.

Can anyone confirm if the above is a good summary of what combinations of Deception items stack and what doesn't ?

Seikojin
08-12-2014, 12:05 PM
I think you have to look at it like old dodge: different sources with different values stack. So any item of deception and any item with improved deception will stack. All other cases are bugs until they ghostbane deception. Or more accurately, fix the improper stacking.

Saekee
08-12-2014, 03:29 PM
Thanks. I double checked the wiki and it looks like it already properly reflects all 3 of those scenarios as of today (8/12/2014):

http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Deception_items

Category:Deception items
Jump to: navigation (http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Deception_items#mw-head), search (http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Deception_items#p-search)


Backstabber's Gloves (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Backstabber%27s_Gloves)
Backstabber's Gloves (Level 12) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Backstabber%27s_Gloves_%28Level_12%29)
Backstabber's Gloves (Level 13) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Backstabber%27s_Gloves_%28Level_13%29)
Backstabber's Gloves (Level 14) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Backstabber%27s_Gloves_%28Level_14%29)
Bow of the Jade Elf (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bow_of_the_Jade_Elf)
Dragon Masque (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Dragon_Masque)
Dream Edge (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Dream_Edge)
Epic Mirage (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Mirage)
Filthy Kukri (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Filthy_Kukri)
Miasma's Fang (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Miasma%27s_Fang)
Midnight Greetings (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Midnight_Greetings)
Mirage (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mirage)
Phiarlan Spy Dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Phiarlan_Spy_Dagger)
Polycurse Dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Polycurse_Dagger)
Rahl's Might (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Rahl%27s_Might)
Ring of Lies (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Ring_of_Lies)
Shadow Star (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Shadow_Star)
Tenebrous Stiletto (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Tenebrous_Stiletto)
Terror (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Terror)
Treason (weapon) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Treason_%28weapon%29)

[edit (http://ddowiki.com/edit/Category:Deception_items?section=1)] Deception V items



Magistrate's Scepter (Level 17) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Magistrate%27s_Scepter_%28Level_17%29)
Magistrate's Scepter (Level 18) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Magistrate%27s_Scepter_%28Level_18%29)
Magistrate's Scepter (Level 19) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Magistrate%27s_Scepter_%28Level_19%29)

[edit (http://ddowiki.com/edit/Category:Deception_items?section=2)] Deception VI items



Fell Shiv (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Fell_Shiv)
Fell Shiv (Level 25) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Fell_Shiv_%28Level_25%29)
Fell Shiv (Level 26) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Fell_Shiv_%28Level_26%29)
Fell Shiv (Level 27) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Fell_Shiv_%28Level_27%29)

[edit (http://ddowiki.com/edit/Category:Deception_items?section=3)] Deception VIII items



Magistrate's Scepter (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Magistrate%27s_Scepter)
Magistrate's Scepter (Level 26) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Magistrate%27s_Scepter_%28Level_26%29)
Magistrate's Scepter (Level 27) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Magistrate%27s_Scepter_%28Level_27%29)
Magistrate's Scepter (Level 28) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Magistrate%27s_Scepter_%28Level_28%29)

[edit (http://ddowiki.com/edit/Category:Deception_items?section=4)] Improved Deception items



Agony, the Knife in the Dark (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Agony,_the_Knife_in_the_Dark)
Backstabber's Gloves (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Backstabber%27s_Gloves)
Backstabber's Gloves (Level 23) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Backstabber%27s_Gloves_%28Level_23%29)
Backstabber's Gloves (Level 24) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Backstabber%27s_Gloves_%28Level_24%29)
Backstabber's Gloves (Level 25) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Backstabber%27s_Gloves_%28Level_25%29)
Epic Golden Guile (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Golden_Guile)
Epic Midnight Greetings (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Midnight_Greetings)
Epic Phiarlan Spy Dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Phiarlan_Spy_Dagger)
Golden Guile (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Golden_Guile)
Rebellion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Rebellion)
Ring of Deceit (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Ring_of_Deceit)
Ring of Lies (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Ring_of_Lies)
Seal of House Avithoul (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Seal_of_House_Avithoul)


Thx for doing this! Very handy!

Nodoze
08-12-2014, 11:17 PM
Thx for doing this! Very handy!I agree it is very useful and the credit really goes to Zav & Cru121 on DDOWiki (same Cru121 on the DDO forums).
I think you have to look at it like old dodge: different sources with different values stack. So any item of deception and any item with improved deception will stack. All other cases are bugs until they ghostbane deception. Or more accurately, fix the improper stacking.Interesting.

We just did Epic Von 3 and between the two of us shuriken throwers (each with both a Deception item and an Imporved Deception item) the Marut never even had a chance to lay a hand on us while we kited. Granted he is pretty slow to begin with but with him turning around so often to check his back/flank it made things very controlled. Considering how well 4 deception items were working (2 on each player) I would love to add it on as many slots as would stack.

I am focused on using Shuriken right now but I am curious if all of these are typed as different sources:

Deception items
Deception V items
Deception VI items
Deception VIII items
Improved Deception items

BOgre
08-13-2014, 01:03 AM
This is one of the major problems I have with the D&D rules. D&D thought it'd be all cerebral or something by going with this bizarre 'unlike sources stack' system. All it's managed to accomplish is to create a universe of exceptions, bugs, errors, and confusion. It seems to me that life would be so much simpler if you could expect things that say "+1" to add +1, and things that add +50 will say "+50". Just start off with the assumption that everything with a "+" stacks, and balance your items from there. Done. It's this nostalgic clinging to an outdated and unwieldy d20 system as the basis for a video game that's doing it. Step into the 21st century, DDO. We didn't invent the floating point unit to handle the number "20".

Saekee
08-13-2014, 09:24 AM
I agree it is very useful and the credit really goes to Zav & Cru121 on DDOWiki (same Cru121 on the DDO forums).Interesting.

We just did Epic Von 3 and between the two of us shuriken throwers (each with both a Deception item and an Imporved Deception item) the Marut never even had a chance to lay a hand on us while we kited. Granted he is pretty slow to begin with but with him turning around so often to check his back/flank it made things very controlled. Considering how well 4 deception items were working (2 on each player) I would love to add it on as many slots as would stack.

I am focused on using Shuriken right now but I am curious if all of these are typed as different sources:

Deception items
Deception V items
Deception VI items
Deception VIII items
Improved Deception items

Why not run some teste on a training dummy?
I tested the new deception items for offhand throwers in epics and they did not affect the main hand. I did not test older legacy named deception weapons in the offhand like midnight greetings
I found that an Erosive lootgen did allow for Stone Prison procs. The low DC does not land well though

Nodoze
08-13-2014, 10:33 AM
Why not run some teste on a training dummy?
I tested the new deception items for offhand throwers in epics and they did not affect the main hand. I did not test older legacy named deception weapons in the offhand like midnight greetings
I found that an Erosive lootgen did allow for Stone Prison procs. The low DC does not land well thoughThat is a good idea though as far as I know our guild ship doesn't have training dummies anymore since the update (or at least I haven't found one yet though I haven't explored every room on every floor). That being said not everything seems to test well on the training dummy as well as some things don't work in 'public spaces'. Sobrian is harder to test with as there are many things going on and there is no approved log analysis methods. Good to know you tested the new off-hand deception weapons while throwing so that is one thing to not have to test.