PDA

View Full Version : how to get max sneak attack damage



skaught78
07-11-2014, 08:59 PM
So after playing only 1 toon for the last three years, I decided to finally create an alt. Gonna do a rogue. Already built it and got to level 11,but am not happy with it so decided to use my free heart and try to get max speced for sneak attack damage.

What stat decides how successful your sneak attacks are, and what stat decides how powerful they are? I can't figure out from the wiki if it's STR, DEX, or INT.

what are some important feats to take?

Character is an Elf, I'd prefer not to delete it as I used all my excess tomes on it.
I'll probably not be doing epics on this toon, but will likely bring it to 20 and use it to farm heroic level stuff.

Ty for any help.

Talon_Moonshadow
07-11-2014, 09:22 PM
SA damage does not depend on any stat.

It depends on hitting your target and not having agro at the time (or having the target under an effect that grants SAs even though you have agro...like being blinded.


Disclaimer: even though the new enhancement system has been around awhile, I do not know all the ins and out of it, so their may be some stat that is important with certain enhancments..... or gear possibly.


But.... IMO, the most important thing for a Rogue is to hit your target... and hit it as many times as possible as quickly as possible.

Personally, I like high Dex and Wep Finesse.
(because a high Ref save is very important.)

But technically a Str build does more damage.. (assuming they both hit the target an equal number of times.)
But that extra damage is not SA damage.

An Int build is possible too.

I have been very happy with my Drow Rogue that started with 16s in Dex, Int and Cha, and put level ups into Dex.

I am strongly considering an Elf Rogue.

skaught78
07-12-2014, 06:03 AM
Thanks! ;)

So in looking at the assassin enhancement tree:

Knife in the Darkness: You gain proficiency with Kukris. You can also use your Dexterity modifier to hit with Daggers and Kukris.

Dagger in the Back: You can now use your Dexterity for damage with Daggers and Kukris. If you possess the Weapon Finesse feat, this also applies to melee weapons with which you can use your Dexterity modifier to hit. This enhancement does not work with handwraps or unarmed attacks.

Could I take these two and dump STR altogether?

Also, I thought I heard that sneak attacks have to be done with a piercing weapon. Is this true? Or can it be anything?

Tscheuss
07-12-2014, 06:36 AM
One stat that can help sneak attacks is Charisma, because it relates to your Bluff DC. enhancement trees may have extra SA dice, too. Deception on a weapon and on an item helps SA happen more often. :)

blerkington
07-12-2014, 06:44 AM
Hi,

Although you probably already know this, sneak attack damage is not the same as the assassination instakill ability. You can build a very dangerous rogue sneak attacker without making the sacrifices necessary to also be a good assassin. SA is not tied to any particular stat; it is more about your feat choices, enhancements, gear and playstyle.

It sounds like you are already considering a TWF build, which is a good choice for getting the most sneak attack damage. That is because you will have a high attack speed compared to most single weapon users, and each one of your strikes can do a lot of additional SA damage.

You could include the TWF feat line to increase your number of off hand attacks, precision to bypass fortification, and improved sneak attack if you plan to play at epic levels. Enhancements which reduce threat will also be useful to you. Some sneak attack builds also include a way of making your victims helpless to further increase SA damage, such as a monk splash to get stunning fist; others make use of enhancements which boost your attack speed even further, like the fighter's haste boost.

The second thing is your playstyle. You generally want to avoid being the target of monster aggro so that you can always get your sneak attack damage as well as normal weapon damage. At first this means not being the first in your group to be seen or to attack. Attack monsters which are already busy with someone else, and kill them before they realise you are the main threat and turn on you. You do not need to be sneaking to make best use of your sneak attack.

Then there is your gear. If you have equipment which causes blindness or gives deception procs, you will be able to get sneak attack damage even if you are the subject of monster aggro. Blindness equipment can be a little annoying because it makes monsters run around randomly, whereas deception doesn't. If you have a pair of weapons which can cause both blindness or deception, and paralysis, things will be very easy for you in most content. Gear that reduces your threat will also be useful to keep boss monsters with large HP totals from turning on you as your damage builds up over time. You can get SA damage using ranged weapons too.

Lastly, there are some monsters which are resistant or immune to sneak attack. For this reason, you will want to have a good selection of weapons specifically for these enemies. It may also be a good idea to make sure your first damage numbers are not too anaemic, by investing in STR or DEX for decent base damage, so you aren't completely reliant on your sneak attack to kill things.

I hope that this helps.

Talon_Moonshadow
07-12-2014, 12:07 PM
Thanks! ;)

So in looking at the assassin enhancement tree:

Knife in the Darkness: You gain proficiency with Kukris. You can also use your Dexterity modifier to hit with Daggers and Kukris.

Dagger in the Back: You can now use your Dexterity for damage with Daggers and Kukris. If you possess the Weapon Finesse feat, this also applies to melee weapons with which you can use your Dexterity modifier to hit. This enhancement does not work with handwraps or unarmed attacks.

Could I take these two and dump STR altogether?

Also, I thought I heard that sneak attacks have to be done with a piercing weapon. Is this true? Or can it be anything?


You could, but remember Str also determines carrying weight/encumbrance.

I think I dumped Str on my Art, and even with Str items I get rendered helpless on occasion by certain spells.


Also, SAs can be done with any weapon.
(just remember what I said about hitting your target as much as possible as quickly as possible)

IMO actual weapon base damage is so much less than SA damage, that which weapon you use is a much lesser concern than simply hitting your target fast and furious.

But of course you do more damage with better weapons....and every little bit of damage counts. ;)

Xiadais
07-12-2014, 01:00 PM
I know you said you are playing an elf, but the Halfling enhancement tree has 3d6 for sneak attack. Half-elf rogue dilletante gives a net 2d6 (1 from the feat, one from enhancements) as well.

AbyssalMage
07-13-2014, 06:22 AM
So after playing only 1 toon for the last three years, I decided to finally create an alt. Gonna do a rogue. Already built it and got to level 11,but am not happy with it so decided to use my free heart and try to get max speced for sneak attack damage.

What stat decides how successful your sneak attacks are, and what stat decides how powerful they are? I can't figure out from the wiki if it's STR, DEX, or INT.

what are some important feats to take?

Character is an Elf, I'd prefer not to delete it as I used all my excess tomes on it.
I'll probably not be doing epics on this toon, but will likely bring it to 20 and use it to farm heroic level stuff.

Ty for any help.
Max SA:
Improved Deception Item*
Deception Item*
Deception on weapons*
Items that causes "Blindness"
Precision
Enhancements/ED's that bypass Fortification
Halfling/Half-Elf (with correct Dilly)

* - All three should stack, or at least in theory they should. Most use 1 of 3. I've done 2 of 3 (Improved and weapon) just for giggles.

There was a guy on Agnossen(?) who made a Rogue/Monk/FvS Halfling (for the Rogue PL. Want to say it was 11/6/3) and his whole focus was SA damage. Not sure if there is a build for it or if he just randomly threw it together for the PL. He had some very impressive SA numbers against purple named thanks to being able to bypass so much fortification. There is a Monk build floating around Erickson 3.0 (?, Something like that) where he has built to bypass fortification in Raid level NPC's. I am sure many of those same principles can be applied to your concept.

Shamguard
07-14-2014, 09:00 AM
Maximum sneak attack damage? Requires Agro control, as long as someone or something else has the agro you get sneak attack. Also if the target is either, blind, deceived, or held you get sneak attacks.The actual amount of sneak attack damage depends upon your Rogue levels and what feats and enhancements you take. You get 1D6 sneak attack as a 1st level Rogue and an additional d6 for every two levels of Rogue after that. There are enhancements that will add additional sneak attack dice also.The Assassin tree has most of these, with increases in attack and damage enhancements also which are well worth taking; as you can't damage what you don't hit.Bluff and Diplomacy are also good skills that help with agro control. Bluff works when you are running solo and Diplo is good for when you are in a party. Just try not to Diplo the Agro off onto the healer, they get a little annoyed about this.You can sneak attack with missile weapons, but you must be within 30ft of your target. To find sneak attack range just takes practice. I find attacking from behind a tank works best. :pAs far as what stats are important, if you want to you the Dexterity weapon feats and enhancements then obviously you want a good Dexterity, for Bluff and Diplo you'll want some Charisma, Intelligence is needed for many of the Rogue skills (search, disable device) if you want to be that kind of Rogue also. If you go with the finesse/dexterity based build Strength is not as important, but I try to have a starting Strength of at least 12, then with tomes, buffs, items, and other enhancements you should be ok. Constitution is important for all characters as this is what your hit points are based off of. Wisdom is not as important to a Rogue, though Spot is a Wisdom skill, so I would try to keep it at least a 10 so as not to have the negative to spot and will save.For my Rogues I try to have all stats at least a 10, actually I do this for all my character classes, just to avoid the negatives.Play style will have more effect on your sneak attack than you build will though, try to let someone else grab agro first then attack. Sneak mode will also help you not to be noticed by mobs, though once you attack this is gone, unless someone else has already grabbed agro.Weapons and items will help whit sneak attack as others have said deception and blinding items are useful in making the mobs susceptible to sneak attack.These are just the basics, I think you learn more as you play with sneak attack.Have Fun.

Saekee
07-14-2014, 09:19 AM
adding to what has been said:
certain gear adds sneak attack damage. The older legacy deception items do NOT do this, but the new stuff does. Only the highest counts, e.g. the heroic elite backstabber's gloves will add 6 damage. Some items add 'insightful' which adds to regular, e.g. Ring of Stalker (it says 'exceptional but is typed as insightful). Worn clothing-type gear with deception stacks with weapons with deception. In TWF the deception attribute of one weapon affects the other. It all adds up to makr one's target whirl in darkness.
Lootgen weapons with deception now also add damage but note that only the highest applies.
It is speculated at deception and improved deception stack.

The Seal of House Avithoul is a very rare pull. The gianthd rings are raid items. OTOH Golden guile drops commonly and the Ring of the Stalker can be easily earned in the challenges. The backstabber gloves sometimes appear on the AH.

Rogues typically go IC piercing due to the proliferation of great daggers. Get the Blade of the High Priestess if u can (even on AH). If you feel like beating yourself up, try grinding an Epic Midnight Greetings.

the_one_dwarfforged
07-15-2014, 06:29 PM
Personally, I like high Dex and Wep Finesse.
(because a high Ref save is very important.)

But technically a Str build does more damage.. (assuming they both hit the target an equal number of times.)

assuming pure rogue using daggers

wouldnt need weapon finesse as you gain the ability to use dex to hit/dmg with certain weapons from the assassin tree, as well as giving daggers the crit profile of a khopesh. rapiers are out, daggers are in, kukris are a joke unless you have epic midnight. still kind of a joke though imo.

as for str vs dex

i havent run the numbers and im not gonna because id get confused trying to do it, but on a pure rogue i definitely dont think a str rogue is going to do more dps. i dont think power attack is exclusive to benefiting str, neither are cleaves, and you can invest just enough into str on a dex build to still get overwhelming crit if you feel you can fit the feats. additionally even if the str rogue is a horc, there are still more ways to increase base stat and dps as a dex based rogue. for example halflings gain up to 3 sneak attack dice from racial tree, as well as 2 dex, up to 3 bluff and up to +3 to all saves. those non dps bonuses are significant because while you stated "assuming equal number of hits" that is never going to happen. dex has more defensive benefits which results in more time spent actually dealing dps.

i suppose it might be closer if we compared a human/halfling/elf str rogue with khopeshes to a human/halfling/elf dex rogue with daggers as khopeshes do have better base damage, but i still think str would lose to dex in that comparison.

additionally i am willing to say that a well played str build will end up having the same % of total hits as sneak attacks as a well played dex build as a decent rogue will control their dps so that non sneak attacks are minimal, despite any dps difference between the builds.

jalont
07-15-2014, 06:35 PM
As for str vs dex, as a first lifer with limited tomes, I'd go like this. If you're maxing int for assassinate, then you have to go dex-based. You need to start with 18 or 20 int, need 15 or 17 dex for twf line. That doesn't leave much for str.

If you aren't pumping up your int, then go str-based. Strength is easier to raise.

skaught78
07-17-2014, 05:16 PM
Hmm... lots to think about here. So now that I' planning out this character with the planner, I've noticed that rogues are a bit short on the feats.
At any rate, I can't decide, or rather, figure out, which would be better to go with. Two handed fighting or taking the new single handed fighting feats.
Any thoughts?

Stoner81
07-17-2014, 05:45 PM
Go Halfling and take all the enhancements in the racial tree to add to Sneak Attack and stay pure Rogue too. Also the other enhancement trees will add to your SA damage (mostly Assassin I think) so get as many of them as you can and you will get the maximum amount of Sneak Attack dice. As for making it land make sure you don't have agro let the burly fighter types wade in first to grab agro then you can start swinging :)

Stoner81.

jalont
07-17-2014, 06:37 PM
Hmm... lots to think about here. So now that I' planning out this character with the planner, I've noticed that rogues are a bit short on the feats.
At any rate, I can't decide, or rather, figure out, which would be better to go with. Two handed fighting or taking the new single handed fighting feats.
Any thoughts?

Two handed fighting should only be done with a stick build, and to be an optimal stick build, you want some split of monk and rogue. I would stick with twf for now. Maybe going single weapon fighting would be nice, but I haven't tried it yet, and I'm not sure how the speed differences effect sneak damage procs.