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Zoda
06-27-2014, 06:59 AM
So the idea is to create a self sufficient zerger using SB and stalwart defender stances, that can tank ee raids. Race choice is dwarf, so I can get constitution to damage, and the best beard around, weapon of choice is thunderforged handaxe. The build name comes from... well, imagine how this toon will look like :D

What to expect (on cap, geared out with endgame supplies):
- huge HP pool, really, really huge (1500-1900 in LD, 2000-2600 in sentinel)
- working saves without pally splash (and epic reflex)
- working instakill
- great melee dps: 18-20/x3 crit profile on a TF crafted handaxe before feat + headman's chop + OC + 40-50% doublestrike + SWF feat line with 70+ CON
- prr around 100 (or more with past lives)
- selfcasts Displacement and FOM, DDoor for some utility
- 27% dodge even without Blitz
- amazing running speed
- quickened/empowered Coccoon and cures and heal scrolls for selflhealing
- option to use SF pots without completely crippling you (movespeed still bearable if you drink the big one, doesn't reduce CON - so keeps dps high)
- trap skills (I wouldn't go for them without completionist and tripple arti past lives, but certainly workable without them)

Dwarf 12 bard 6 fighter 2 rogue

starting stats:
STR 17 (+6 tome required for OC)
DEX 10
CON 20
WIS 8
INT 11 (if you want trap skills)
CHA 8

Feats in random order: (7 regular + 4 fighter + 3 epic)
PA (when +3 tome hits)
IC
3 SWF
2 cleave
quicken
2 shield mastery
empower heal
overwhelming crit (at lvl 24 with +6 tome)
epic reflexes
epic thoughness - with feat swap after you get thoughness at 28 with destiny feats (drop this if you have completionist)

Destiny feats:
PTWF and Thoughness (or PSWF if you want to twist Reign)

enhancement:
18 AP dwarf - all cores, all axe stuff, throw your weight around, +2 saves vs spells
26 AP stalwart - +6 con stance, +20% hp stance, swift defense, +2 con
35 AP swashbuckler - coup, exploit weakness, 1 rank of Second Skin
1 AP warchanter - 1st core +1 con

Main Destiny: Legendary Dreadnaught (taking Anvil of Thunder - great tool) - switch to sentinel for tanking and twist 10% hamp from EA
Twists: Legendary Shield Mastery + Coccoon + Primal Scream /or/ hail of blows (+ Purity of Essence with epic completionist)

Here is a gameplay video in e/e Break in the Ice: (also shows enhancement and destiny trees for those who are interested)

youtube.com/watch?v=saPZwy6aoDo&feature=youtu.be - this was made after I capped the build first on my main

Here is an e/e Breaking the Ranks video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJofSemHSmo
You can find a couple more videos of the build on my youtube channel if interested, won't link them all individually.

Selfbuffed stats in Legendary Dreadnaught and usual zerging setup:
http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p548/Zoda27/ScreenShot00139_zpsa0ce2f78.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Zoda27/media/ScreenShot00139_zpsa0ce2f78.jpg.html)

serthcore
06-28-2014, 02:46 PM
Heh, looks like an awesome dps tank.
Having tried swashbuckler myself, the dps is great, and you bring very good defenses here.

About the extra feat i would play with empower heal or epic reflexes, going for epic reflexes if your selfhealing is good enough (which i think it should be).
Now bring it to ee deathwyrm!

Zoda
06-29-2014, 07:20 AM
Heh, looks like an awesome dps tank.
Having tried swashbuckler myself, the dps is great, and you bring very good defenses here.

About the extra feat i would play with empower heal or epic reflexes, going for epic reflexes if your selfhealing is good enough (which i think it should be).
Now bring it to ee deathwyrm!

That'd be the plan, I just need to cap it :)

I'm thinking of taking precision (and epic reflexes) for better dps against the shadow dragon, but will see how I'll manage to keep myself topped without emp heal. Wish I had pally past lives on Zodinn...

Maxxcore
06-29-2014, 09:15 AM
What order did you level your guy? And is he a 36 pt build? And what skills did you take every level?

Zoda
06-29-2014, 11:50 AM
What order did you level your guy? And is he a 36 pt build? And what skills did you take every level?

Leveling order only matters if you want to get maxed intimidate, otherwise doesn't matter much. I did 1 bard 6 fighter 2 rog 11 bard. Probably taking rog first would have been more skill points but couldn't be bothered to check and I have a tendency of failing when it comes to picking alignment of split builds :D

Yes, it is 36 pb.

I leveled up Balance, Perform, UMD and Heal.

Update:
I'm level 20 now and got 1000+ hit points and 58 reflex with only ship buffs and nothing uber for gear, mostly ES commendation turn in stuff.

Nayus
06-30-2014, 08:06 PM
Your CON will be about just as high if you go STR/DEX/CHA-based, there isn't much reason to try CON, in the end it'll be some meager HP difference to annoy whoever's helping healing you.

Then you'll learn 33% Heal Amp is 330% better than any amount of HP you can get by going dwarf. In Epics you'll take so much damage, HAMP players an incredible role for any build that can fit it.

Bulwark of Defense is a feat for +2 saves because you will not get any amount of AC with a leather and a buckler, also drop any AC enhancements you were going to take in Dwarf or Stalwart.

Zoda
06-30-2014, 08:30 PM
Your CON will be about just as high if you go STR/DEX/CHA-based, there isn't much reason to try CON, in the end it'll be some meager HP difference to annoy whoever's helping healing you.

Then you'll learn 33% Heal Amp is 330% better than any amount of HP you can get by going dwarf. In Epics you'll take so much damage, HAMP players an incredible role for any build that can fit it.

Bulwark of Defense is a feat for +2 saves because you will not get any amount of AC with a leather and a buckler, also drop any AC enhancements you were going to take in Dwarf or Stalwart.


I don't have anyone healing me, I heal myself. I have hamp too, it is slotted on gear. I'd love some pally past lives, but I left them on my main.

Now that we made this clear, let me ask you how many times you tanked elite deathwyrm? I did it a bunch of times and I always wanted more hp. Except when I kited on my archer instead of tanking, but where is the challange in that... Keeping the dragon locked in position can make that raid a lot faster on elite.

On Bulwark: who gives a dayum about AC?

Nayus
06-30-2014, 09:08 PM
Elite Deathwyrm I haven't, but I did tank the male dragon in Elite Peaks twice in guild runs, without cheese hiding behind rocks/trees, because my guild leader would rather fail the whole thing than doing that.

I had around 1400 HP that life, sustainable, just standing up in the harbor checking my mails, I know people who reached much higher and I wasn't focusing on that. But even with 1k4 I noticed my life bar was going up and down, back and forth, so much that white things almost came out of me. 'dat was crazy for sure....

Now say someone had 2000 HP. At 50% health something that heals for 500 with 30% amp (I assume that's your amount?) will get him to 2000*0,5+500*1,3= 1650 HP. He just took a 1000 blast.

My 1k4 HP, at half hp + 128,4% Healing Amp without past lives = 700 + 500*2,284 = 1842. I just took a 700 blast though, let's say I took a 1k blast as well.

400 + 500*2,23 = 1542.

It's 108 points lower if I take a 1k blast and if you have two thousand life points, for a total of +600 HP than I had. A higher HP would allow higher survivability if you were always able to stay at 100% health, anything less than that and you're getting healed for more, thus recovering more HP per second.

Monster DPS - Your HPS = Damage

Of course I could get insta-killed with 1k4 damage where you would have survived with 2k, but if I were a single hit point away from death when the boss used his biggest attack I would still recover better. Getting instakilled is a problem though but if you're losing 1k4 HP before you can throw a single heal then 2k HP is not the answer, that's for sure.
-------

You have 7 level-ups + 2 from Dwarf. 8 con makes 4 mod for 4*28 = 112 HP
I assume you took 3 Dwarf HP cores for +30 HP.

(112 + 30) * 1.2 modifier from Stalwart = 170 HP.

Doesn't look like you're getting +600 HP. Even if you break 2k HP it proves I could also get that value with the same effort and you know, the more HP, the better Healing Amp becomes.

Zoda
06-30-2014, 10:39 PM
I have both 20 and 30 hamp on gear atm.

Dwarf gets +3 con comparerd to human not +2, not like it matters a whole lot (20 start + 2 enhancement vs 18+1). Also if you go str route, you can't start with both STR and CON maxed without gimping your other stats, so CON would probably drop to 16 and DEX wouldn't be too high either.

I was trying to create a str build, but couldn't justify going for the defender stance on str based, but I really wanted it's defensive benefits, and also it would have made me chose between divine might and evasion.

Human/helf str based is not bad, but I don't feel like I need the healamp, while I know that I will want the extra hp for elite wyrm (I hate thuder peaks beyond telling, so can't say much about that, always slacking away from channel runs, only got 2 elite runs for favor). I solod my way up to 26 (aside from an ee von5) doing only elites, and I was very pleased with the hp, often I only have to heal after the fight is over, which make coccoon a lot stronger as it gets all its ticks.

At this point getting reliable selfheal for high end ee is very easy so I guess it only comes down to playstyle if you prefer hamp or hp. For STR based I'd probably go with a different split anyway to be able to get that warchanter 1st core working, and also on STR based I would want divine might.

EDIT: 1884 selfbuffed hp wihtout yugo pot at lvl 26, I'll hit more than 2k.

Wipey
06-30-2014, 11:06 PM
Can I ask you how high "character sheet" devo ( buffed ) this thing has ?
Looks cool.

Zoda
07-01-2014, 10:41 PM
Can I ask you how high "character sheet" devo ( buffed ) this thing has ?
Looks cool.

Okay, so just capped and put whatever gear I had at hand on it, it is not the optimal setup. Toon has +5 CON and DEX tomes, +4 in the rest, 2 PDK, 1 doublestrike, 3 cleric, 2 rog, 1 fighter past lives (just saying so you know how those stat turned out to be like that). I have +10 con item equipped +8 dex slotted.

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p548/Zoda27/ScreenShot00099_zpsd17ea78b.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Zoda27/media/ScreenShot00099_zpsd17ea78b.jpg.html)

So far the build has been amazing, on the way to cap I solod all e/e Gianthold quests without a single death as a lvl 26, good stuff.

And I can finally play a dwarf.

Takllin
07-01-2014, 11:08 PM
So far the build has been amazing, on the way to cap I solod all e/e Gianthold quests without a single death as a lvl 26, good stuff.

By solo he means that he left my come pike his runs on my gimp druid life and use the rest of his cakes XD

Seriously though, its an uber build, watching him blaze through quests while he was at 26 without top end gear was really cool.

Ancient
07-01-2014, 11:50 PM
Great build, I'm really liking the 12/6/2 split. Still trying to work through the details to find what I like, but dwarf was not one I had considered... looks like it turned out very well. Thanks for posting.

Zoda
07-02-2014, 01:02 AM
By solo he means that he left my come pike his runs on my gimp druid life and use the rest of his cakes XD

Seriously though, its an uber build, watching him blaze through quests while he was at 26 without top end gear was really cool.

I did that in the hopes that you'll cast jump on me in maze... well, next time I'll know better, scalebringer!


Great build, I'm really liking the 12/6/2 split. Still trying to work through the details to find what I like, but dwarf was not one I had considered... looks like it turned out very well. Thanks for posting.

Thanks!

I really prefer dwarf to other races on this build, because it has the coolest beard. On a more serious note, that's a lot of easy hp there, and I have no hamp problems whatsoever (just pulled Takllin's gimp kensai druid through an eeWGU and he fell asleep halfway it was still EZ) you get +5 saves vs spells, and did I mention the cool beard? Fully geared without completionist it has a CON score of 70, don't think str based can get there with the same split.

Planning to bang out the remaining 5 lives on my main to get completionist, then I'll do this build on him and put this toon back to it's old banker role.

Nightmanis
07-02-2014, 10:27 AM
I did that in the hopes that you'll cast jump on me in maze... well, next time I'll know better, scalebringer!



Thanks!

I really prefer dwarf to other races on this build, because it has the coolest beard. On a more serious note, that's a lot of easy hp there, and I have no hamp problems whatsoever (just pulled Takllin's gimp kensai druid through an eeWGU and he fell asleep halfway it was still EZ) you get +5 saves vs spells, and did I mention the cool beard? Fully geared without completionist it has a CON score of 70, don't think str based can get there with the same split.

Planning to bang out the remaining 5 lives on my main to get completionist, then I'll do this build on him and put this toon back to it's old banker role.

Screw you Zoda you're not helping the fact that night is so gimpy...

Be interesting to see this build work as a con/cha build of a different race. Do something akin to a divine crusader swash and board. Wouldn't end up with nearly as much HP though.

Vanhooger
07-02-2014, 11:44 AM
What about perform? How high will be?
Could you please post an image with ench?

Thanks

Zoda
07-02-2014, 12:47 PM
Just completed a flwaless e/e WGU with this build, here are the details:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/444769-E-E-WGU-flawless-solo-dwarven-swasbuckler?p=5371685#post5371685

Looks like I have no healing amp problems after all.... right?


What about perform? How high will be?
Could you please post an image with ench?

Thanks

Perform sitting on 76 atm, works fine, can be raised easily to 90ish value, but I don't see the point, was hitting everything with Coup in WGU, although some orc priests saved against Fascinate.

I won't post a ss of my enhancements, the breakdown I gave should be more than enough to figure them out.

Ancient
07-02-2014, 03:01 PM
Why hand-axe over light picks? It seems that en pointe and exploit weakness would both bring bigger gains to the light pick than the hand axe.

*EDIT* Nevermind, headsman chop. I found the answer.

Cetus
07-02-2014, 06:46 PM
Time for an EE devils assult solo zodanub!

Chop chop

Zoda
07-02-2014, 07:54 PM
Time for an EE devils assult solo zodanub!

Chop chop

I got my greater shard from shroud the other day, so I'll skip that. Also log on coz I wanna raid.

Vanhooger
07-03-2014, 04:22 AM
Just completed a flwaless e/e WGU with this build, here are the details:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/444769-E-E-WGU-flawless-solo-dwarven-swasbuckler?p=5371685#post5371685

Looks like I have no healing amp problems after all.... right?



Perform sitting on 76 atm, works fine, can be raised easily to 90ish value, but I don't see the point, was hitting everything with Coup in WGU, although some orc priests saved against Fascinate.

I won't post a ss of my enhancements, the breakdown I gave should be more than enough to figure them out.

Asked for ench just because I cant play around with it in the planner,but i will figure it out...

maddmatt70
07-06-2014, 08:39 PM
You can always tr this character when they change how armor, prr, etc. works. I am reluctant to change my shield tank to a single weapon fighting buckler variant because it seems likely to be a short time frame before they change the way this works.

Zoda
07-06-2014, 08:58 PM
You can always tr this character when they change how armor, prr, etc. works. I am reluctant to change my shield tank to a single weapon fighting buckler variant because it seems likely to be a short time frame before they change the way this works.

It has dps.

maddmatt70
07-06-2014, 09:20 PM
It has dps.

So you think it has a high enough dps that when it becomes more of a back up tank or non tank character it will still be pretty solid? Very nice then. It is a good build in the here and now regardless.

Rull
07-07-2014, 09:17 AM
Cool, I have made a dwarf swashbuckling defender (on paper) who is very similar to this.

I was doing the math recently and found some interesting surprises. Even despite headman's chop, the light pick has the better crits in LD.

axe crits on (exploited)15-18/x3, 19-20/x5
with exploit weakness this comes down to 59.1% x1 + 30.9% x3 + 10% x5 = 202% dmg

pick crits on (exploited)17-18/x4, 19-20/x5
with exploit weakness this comes down to
66.2% x1 + 23.8% x4 + 10% x5 = 212% dmg

Is the 1d6 versus the 1d4 really worth that difference?

Also saves you 2 AP in LD and seems much better in any other destiny.

Ancient
07-07-2014, 09:26 AM
Cool, I have made a dwarf swashbuckling defender (on paper) who is very similar to this.

I was doing the math recently and found some interesting surprises. Even despite headman's chop, the light pick has the better crits in LD.

**** GOOD MATH SNIPPED ****


I really like the balanced saves on my PDK 12/6/2 as well as the fact that it only has two primary stats to worry about.... but so does the dwarf build, and the dps math keeps looking more and more in favor of the dwarf con build.

Ancient
07-07-2014, 09:36 AM
I am liking this build enough I may start a second 12/6/2 bard just to try out the dwarf version. One decision I'm still trying to work through is switching points from dex to str and adding overwhelming critical instead of weapon finesse.

While I like precision, the build is tight on both feats and enhancement points (to get the bonus precision damage) and if I don't have precision, there is no feat requirement for dex and your reflex save is high enough it could handle a few point drop.

Zoda
07-07-2014, 10:48 AM
I am liking this build enough I may start a second 12/6/2 bard just to try out the dwarf version. One decision I'm still trying to work through is switching points from dex to str and adding overwhelming critical instead of weapon finesse.

While I like precision, the build is tight on both feats and enhancement points (to get the bonus precision damage) and if I don't have precision, there is no feat requirement for dex and your reflex save is high enough it could handle a few point drop.

I guess that's a good point, if I get around to do this on my main I might go that rout (+6 str tome vs +4 makes a difference).

Jhaeran
07-07-2014, 10:54 AM
Looks fun.
I apologize, unable to watch the videos yet.

Any issues with the lower 'bard' CHA? I'm assuming you're not really using a lot of cha based DC.

Any recommendations for non-headsman chop running off destiny or for first lifers in general?

PA/Momentum Swing vs Precision - my 12/6/2 really seems to miss the AOE damage, but the # of crits is nice even against undead/constructs. You seem to have gone against precision, is it more of a 50/50 playstyle decision or doesn't make sense to go precision?

Nightmanis
07-07-2014, 04:01 PM
I am liking this build enough I may start a second 12/6/2 bard just to try out the dwarf version. One decision I'm still trying to work through is switching points from dex to str and adding overwhelming critical instead of weapon finesse.

While I like precision, the build is tight on both feats and enhancement points (to get the bonus precision damage) and if I don't have precision, there is no feat requirement for dex and your reflex save is high enough it could handle a few point drop.

Drop dex from 16 to 10, raise Str to 16, put 1 level up into str and the rest into con.

The odd con can be handled with gear, drop epic toughness for overwhelming crit. Suffer -3 to reflex saves and -78hp......-94hp.

There you go. Bit of mathematicalness to help the later peoples.

Zoda
07-08-2014, 06:47 AM
So just found this in the lama release notes:

Madstone Rage now provides its proper 20% Melee Haste bonus.

Now, I'm pretty sure that you can use coccoon and clickies under madstone rage (since u19 I think, not sure, but I remember playing around with it), and it gives +4 con as well, so I might go and try to get some more pairs of that boots. Coccoon and dispacement clickies are really all you need for most quests on this build, so it'd be a significant dps increase that's technically free (click it, wait guard to proc, switch back to normal boots). Not a 100% on that you can use your stuff, but I'm fairly sure they worked the last time I checked.

Nightmanis
07-08-2014, 07:29 AM
So just found this in the lama release notes:

Madstone Rage now provides its proper 20% Melee Haste bonus.

Now, I'm pretty sure that you can use coccoon and clickies under madstone rage (since u19 I think, not sure, but I remember playing around with it), and it gives +4 con as well, so I might go and try to get some more pairs of that boots. Coccoon and dispacement clickies are really all you need for most quests on this build, so it'd be a significant dps increase that's technically free (click it, wait guard to proc, switch back to normal boots). Not a 100% on that you can use your stuff, but I'm fairly sure they worked the last time I checked.

The problem is, if it's still considered a rage effect, is you would have to drop defender stance while waiting for it to proc. If the proc rate is something ridiculous then it's not a bad idea, but then you also need to make sure defender won't dispel it.

Zoda
07-08-2014, 07:32 AM
The problem is, if it's still considered a rage effect, is you would have to drop defender stance while waiting for it to proc. If the proc rate is something ridiculous then it's not a bad idea, but then you also need to make sure defender won't dispel it.

Yea... realized as well. I wonder why aren't BF kensais and stuff using, we talked about it with Cetus but I still haven't seen him actually using it (guess he prefers tenser...). Guess now that the speed bonus is fixed he will.

Proc rate is around 20% iirc.

Nightmanis
07-08-2014, 08:12 AM
Yea... realized as well. I wonder why aren't BF kensais and stuff using, we talked about it with Cetus but I still haven't seen him actually using it (guess he prefers tenser...). Guess now that the speed bonus is fixed he will.

Proc rate is around 20% iirc.

If I can still cast reconstruct, then I'll need to farm a set out too. Thanks for the heads up on that one.

Ancient
07-08-2014, 07:48 PM
The build has dps. I copied my wizard to the test server and TR'd into a version of this build (minus the tomes, the gear, guild buffs, and several other important details) and then proceeded to solo epic devils assault without using blitz or a mortal fear weapon.

The challenge rules are here:

Here is my challenge. No mortal fear, no blitz, strictly melee. Can you post a video soloing (EDIT: Epic Elite):
***snip***
4. DA

Video is processing, but it will be Here (http://youtu.be/qRdQZx785co).

Zoda
07-08-2014, 11:50 PM
The build has dps. I copied my wizard to the test server and TR'd into a version of this build (minus the tomes, the gear, guild buffs, and several other important details) and then proceeded to solo epic devils assault without using blitz or a mortal fear weapon.

The challenge rules are here:


Video is processing, but it will be Here (http://youtu.be/qRdQZx785co).

Impressive!

I was trying to come up with other swashbuckler builds more focused on dps, like 13 rog 6 bard 1 fvs and the likes, but I nevert felt like I gained nearly enough on offense to compensate for the loss I suffered on the defense, not to mention the beard! I want to keep the beard!

Also, after reading the Lama release notes, I finally decided to reroll my warpriest and do this on my main, starting stats were 17/10/20/8/8/11, that way I hit 23 str for OC without losing con, reflex will be the same thanks to tripple brace past lives, and I'll be able to drop weapon finesse, just as you suggested.

flipstre
07-09-2014, 09:56 AM
Hi,

Can I please get the HP breakdown please, For some reason I could only get up to 1260 hp on Legendary Dreadnought. But I only went 18 start con instead of 20 Like you did.

Maxxcore
07-09-2014, 10:46 AM
Do you have any trap skills from rogue? And what is your leveling order? Any past lives that are "necessary" for a successful build? Any other tips?

Ancient
07-09-2014, 10:57 AM
I was trying to come up with other swashbuckler builds more focused on dps, like 13 rog 6 bard 1 fvs and the likes, but I nevert felt like I gained nearly enough on offense to compensate for the loss I suffered on the defense, not to mention the beard! I want to keep the beard!
Lol, the power of the beard!

Since I had never managed to solo EE DA on my main, I went back again and tried it. Still no luck, the archers seem to have true seeing and under 800 hp isn't enough (for my playing ability) to handle the rough patches. I always make it through the first 3 waves, but wave 4 and 5 are something I can't make it through.

The avoidance defense is less on the dwarf bard, and the healing isn't as good... but >1500 HP buys a LOT of forgiveness on mistakes. And the really scary thing is that I had pretty crummy gear. I believe that this qualifies as a melee build that could do EEs with a minimal set of gear, and just keeps getting better as your gear improves.

*EDIT* and as a "you were right". On my test server build, I forced precision in anyways. I didn't have enough enhancement points to really make it work, the stats were stretched way too thin on a 36 point build with only +4 tomes and the missing feat was pretty tough. In short, the dwarf version is probably better without precision.

Zoda
07-09-2014, 09:14 PM
Hi,

Can I please get the HP breakdown please, For some reason I could only get up to 1260 hp on Legendary Dreadnought. But I only went 18 start con instead of 20 Like you did.

Um... no


Do you have any trap skills from rogue? And what is your leveling order? Any past lives that are "necessary" for a successful build? Any other tips?

Skills are tight, so no (and I don't care about traps in general). You need perform, umd, heal, some balance, and I also maxed intimidate on my main, and you need to do all that from 8 starting int. Obviously if someone cares about traps you can adjust the build to it, I won't.


Lol, the power of the beard!

Since I had never managed to solo EE DA on my main, I went back again and tried it. Still no luck, the archers seem to have true seeing and under 800 hp isn't enough (for my playing ability) to handle the rough patches. I always make it through the first 3 waves, but wave 4 and 5 are something I can't make it through.

The avoidance defense is less on the dwarf bard, and the healing isn't as good... but >1500 HP buys a LOT of forgiveness on mistakes. And the really scary thing is that I had pretty crummy gear. I believe that this qualifies as a melee build that could do EEs with a minimal set of gear, and just keeps getting better as your gear improves.

*EDIT* and as a "you were right". On my test server build, I forced precision in anyways. I didn't have enough enhancement points to really make it work, the stats were stretched way too thin on a 36 point build with only +4 tomes and the missing feat was pretty tough. In short, the dwarf version is probably better without precision.

I don't think precision is even necessary to be hones, 35% bypass on TF 2nd tier + improved destruction from the tree is more than enough for general questing, and for ee raids, the party probably has regular destruction in the form of archers, and someone with a weaken undead item. Precision would be a nice little improvement, but AP is just too tight to take it.

In 4 more lives I get completionist (currently doing a bard life with this build, and gonna bang out some epic lives with the 1st completion bonuses), and when that happens I'll just have the necessary feats without room for extras (2 meta, 3 swf, pa, 2 cleave, 2 shield mastery, ic, completionist, oc, epic reflex). So in the finalized thing I won't even have feat slot for precision.

Also thinking about twisting Reign (Fatesinger tier 3) and picking up perfect SWF, it'd average around 23 damage per hit. I'm not sure though, these 19-20 roll abilities look nice on paper, but a blitzer with a roll of 19-20 can easily one shot ee mobs (x6 multiplier on those).

Chimeran1
07-10-2014, 12:14 AM
So you think it has a high enough dps that when it becomes more of a back up tank or non tank character it will still be pretty solid? Very nice then. It is a good build in the here and now regardless.

I like the idea of this build, it is different, original and quite exciting ( female dwarf swashbuckler yes please )
I currently run a 7 bard, 12 fighter, 1 FvS strength build. ( level 23 - using Protector of Kings rapier )
I have come across 3 of these Dwarven OP builds so far and talked extensively with the players who run them.
I am not sure how con weapon damage Vs strength damage compares.
My crit range is 13-20, non LD stance is 600-800 damage crits on EH, EE approx 400-500 damage.
In LD stance I get 1000-1400 damage crits.
I am currently leveling up Devine crusader.

The biggest issue I have with this build, is that it utilises one of the worst weapons available and requires the use of feats that other races do not require. I really hope DDO adds some decent named hand axes for lower level grinding.

Great to bring back dwarves :)
I did seem to be scroll rezzing them a lot , so not sure why the build was dying so much, probably player fault/skill level.
I have found on EE ( non raids ) evasion is not required if your knowledge of quests is good enough.
As soon as a decent hand axe comes into play, I will roll one of these up.

Ancient
07-10-2014, 01:03 AM
The biggest issue I have with this build, is that it utilises one of the worst weapons available and requires the use of feats that other races do not require. I really hope DDO adds some decent named hand axes for lower level grinding.

You can use light picks. I went that route rather than hand axes.

Zoda
07-10-2014, 02:09 AM
The biggest issue I have with this build, is that it utilises one of the worst weapons available and requires the use of feats that other races do not require. I really hope DDO adds some decent named hand axes for lower level grinding.
.

There are plenty of good hand axes, ppl just usually don't know them, because they are hand axes. Weapon type with SB is almost irrelevant. Legendary Dreadnaught puts axes ahead of other weapon types for SB. TF crafted weapons are the best endgame weapons. Those facts combined pretty much make handaxe not one of the worst, but the best weapon type. Alternatively you can go with picks as Ancient suggested, I prefer the axe though.

If you often had to rez ppl playing this build you should look for better players to play with.

stoerm
07-10-2014, 03:56 AM
Thanks for sharing your build!


Now, I'm pretty sure that you can use coccoon and clickies under madstone rage

I used the boots on/off on while doing a barbarian life recently and I'm pretty sure I couldn't use cocoon. The proc rate is very good though.

Chimeran1
07-10-2014, 04:24 AM
There are plenty of good hand axes, ppl just usually don't know them, because they are hand axes. Weapon type with SB is almost irrelevant. Legendary Dreadnaught puts axes ahead of other weapon types for SB. TF crafted weapons are the best endgame weapons. Those facts combined pretty much make handaxe not one of the worst, but the best weapon type. Alternatively you can go with picks as Ancient suggested, I prefer the axe though.

If you often had to rez ppl playing this build you should look for better players to play with.

Auction house level 1-28 only 4 hand axes ( maybe lots playing this build .... Seemed slim pickings)
Probably better I try loot some low level versions.
My problem was the game offers very little in the way of named hand axes.
To get a decent forged hand axe requires some serious grindage.

So my question..

What would you recommend in the way of a leveling weapon for this build, from 1-20
Should I craft a green steel?

For those who do not have access to green steel what are the options?

I have a toon lined up for the build now, just need to sort some kit.

Ancient
07-10-2014, 07:55 AM
What would you recommend in the way of a leveling weapon for this build, from 1-20
Should I craft a green steel?

For those who do not have access to green steel what are the options?

I have a toon lined up for the build now, just need to sort some kit.

Zoda is likely to have a different opinion, but I've been testing 12/6/2 combos quite a bit lately... so I'll offer mine too. Greensteel would be optimal, but here are some other options:

If you are going fighter early to get PA/Cleave/Great cleave, then I would suggest 2 handed axes at the lowest levels. Some top options include carnifex, crafted scream/bleed (this can be ml 1 if you don't give it a +1 enhancement), or icy burst lacerated weapon (if you happen to have one of those). To be honest though, with power attack/cleave/great cleave and decent strength... you can swing whatever you pick up and do just fine in the early levels.

If you are going bard early, then I would grab a tiefling (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Tiefling_Assassin's_Blade) blade from 3bc. Yes, it is a short sword... your dwarven brothers will forgive you and it is very strong at low levels. Another named that is very powerful for swashbucklers is Skullsmasher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Skullsmasher_(Level_12)). This build is tight on AP, and the swashbuckler tree has lots of awesome goodness... and if you don't have HP items then the stalwart tree is important for survival... meaning you might end up close to 20 before you are throwing your weight around.

A final option is to craft a bodyfeeding of lesser vampirism weapon. This could be pretty much any weapon type you want since you just get something from the AH and deconstruct it. My PDK is using a +1 bodyfeeder/lesser vamp with a devotion ruby in it. These are pretty low level crafting shards and be crafted as unbound (so someone else can help you make it). This sounds gimpy, but it actually works very well in practice. Here are some videos of me running my alt accounts through some heroic elite GH quests.


Foundation of discord (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l6UGNfs_S4)
Trial by fire (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJTmFy1_L6E)
Cabal for one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eNRVa2IvsU)
Feast or famine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vg5c2q9JnI)

If you go the bodyfeed/vamp, then be sure to max resonate weapons (6d6 sonic on a crit) as soon as possible. I recommend that no matter what.

Zoda
07-10-2014, 12:04 PM
Auction house level 1-28 only 4 hand axes ( maybe lots playing this build .... Seemed slim pickings)
Probably better I try loot some low level versions.
My problem was the game offers very little in the way of named hand axes.
To get a decent forged hand axe requires some serious grindage.

So my question..

What would you recommend in the way of a leveling weapon for this build, from 1-20
Should I craft a green steel?

For those who do not have access to green steel what are the options?

I have a toon lined up for the build now, just need to sort some kit.

Pretty much what Ancient said, just cleave with a greataxe till you get a greensteel (without GSWF it's probably faster anyway). When you get GSWF, switch to a handaxe, optimally greensteel (I suggest rad2), or a very good alternative is the named handaxe dropping in litany, but that's probably not so easy to get (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Axe_of_the_Unseen_Blow - that'd be the best). But really, if you have no access to either, you'll do just fine with some decent random gen, your enhacements will turn it into a sword of shadow anyway...

gwonbush
07-10-2014, 06:18 PM
After a bit of testing on Lamannia, the Axe of the Unseen Blow is probably the worst handaxe in the game for a Swashbuckler. This is because for some reason or another (maybe the unusual coding it has for offhand use?) it doesn't seem to count as a Handaxe for the purposes of Swashbuckling.

Zoda
07-10-2014, 06:32 PM
After a bit of testing on Lamannia, the Axe of the Unseen Blow is probably the worst handaxe in the game for a Swashbuckler. This is because for some reason or another (maybe the unusual coding it has for offhand use?) it doesn't seem to count as a Handaxe for the purposes of Swashbuckling.

Ha! Thanks for letting us know, guess I'm not searching for one anymore then. (I like them twink gearz)

Zoda
07-10-2014, 06:48 PM
First post updated with the most recent version of the build, the screenshot is still the one from my test toon with the old version.

Here is a screenshot of an e/e Tracker completion at level 26 (not posting this because I consider it any kind of achievement or whatnot, just to give a perspective on the build's dps - 17 minutes completion, no invis used):

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p548/Zoda27/ScreenShot00108_zpsf4c0a1fb.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Zoda27/media/ScreenShot00108_zpsf4c0a1fb.jpg.html)

Now this could be vastly improved by lvl 28 gear and PSWF + Reign combo (also only available once I hit 28).

Chimeran1
07-10-2014, 09:00 PM
First post updated with the most recent version of the build, the screenshot is still the one from my test toon with the old version.

Here is a screenshot of an e/e Tracker completion at level 26 (not posting this because I consider it any kind of achievement or whatnot, just to give a perspective on the build's dps - 17 minutes completion, no invis used):

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p548/Zoda27/ScreenShot00108_zpsf4c0a1fb.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Zoda27/media/ScreenShot00108_zpsf4c0a1fb.jpg.html)

Now this could be vastly improved by lvl 28 gear and PSWF + Reign combo (also only available once I hit 28).

Nice.

So my question for swashbuckler...
50 constitution stat as damage Vs
50 strength stat as damage...

Will it give the same damage output?

Ancient
07-10-2014, 09:16 PM
I prefer the axe though.
I'm curious why.

Anvil of thunder works with both.
I was under the impression that the DPS numbers favored the pick, even after headsman's chop.
As critical weakness expands the crit range, the pick's advantage over axe gets bigger and bigger.
Blow by blow, en pointe, momentum swing all increase crit threat range which favors the higher multiplier.
Lay waste does favor the axe, but that is the least used attack of the bunch due to refresh.

What am I missing? Or is it a just like the way axes look thing?

Ancient
07-10-2014, 09:17 PM
Nice.

So my question for swashbuckler...
50 constitution stat as damage Vs
50 strength stat as damage...

Will it give the same damage output?
On a dwarf with throw your weight around using a qualifying weapon... yes, the same.

Zoda
07-10-2014, 10:04 PM
I'm curious why.

Anvil of thunder works with both.
I was under the impression that the DPS numbers favored the pick, even after headsman's chop.
As critical weakness expands the crit range, the pick's advantage over axe gets bigger and bigger.
Blow by blow, en pointe, momentum swing all increase crit threat range which favors the higher multiplier.
Lay waste does favor the axe, but that is the least used attack of the bunch due to refresh.

What am I missing? Or is it a just like the way axes look thing?

4.5 more base damage on TF axe and better chance to land Anvil fo Thunder (and yeah pick looks horrid). Dps difference is probably minimal.
Also I'm not using En pointe and Blow by blow. Actually I think En pointe is pretty bad because of the slowish animation, guess it's better with pick than with axe. Blow by blow is not bad, but I it's not that great either imo, +threat range attacks are worse on SB because they often just remove Exploit Weakness stacks, I just free myself from an extra button that I have to tap (and with my enhancement setup it'd cost me 2 reflex to get it to rank 3). Also not using Lay Waste, without the knockdown part being relevant I don't think it worths the AP, I rather take more seeker damage, and cleaving in geneeral with SWF is only situationally good imo (if you hit multiple targets), as they slow down your normal attack patern (I'm trying to do 2 hits + break attack chain sequences).

Chimeran1
07-10-2014, 11:48 PM
On a dwarf with throw your weight around using a qualifying weapon... yes, the same.

Thank you.
Just sold the build even more.
I have been farming Crafting mats all day.
Can't wait to TR into a dwarf, will be a laugh.
Will run all the same enhance lines and feats, but stay with my 7 bard, 12 fighter, 1 FvS build as it is quite OP.

Zoda
07-11-2014, 04:16 AM
Doing another eTR atm and experimenting with Improved Shield Bashing. It's been interesting so far, special attacks like Anvil proc out of bashes and SA damage also gets added to it. Also I can fit in the 15% extra bash chance. Will see how it goes.

Eth
07-11-2014, 04:40 AM
Nice build.
The only thing I would question is that heavy starting point distribution in Str. Since Str does nothing for you, do you think it's really worth it just for OC?
I think those points would be better spend in dex for reflex and to-hit and pick up another feat. Plenty to chose from.

Lonnbeimnech
07-11-2014, 04:43 AM
Doing another eTR atm and experimenting with Improved Shield Bashing. It's been interesting so far, special attacks like Anvil proc out of bashes and SA damage also gets added to it. Also I can fit in the 15% extra bash chance. Will see how it goes.
Dunno if you've seen this, but

Shield Bash isn't hitting an animation cap per se, rather there is a deliberate 1.0 second internal cooldown on Shield Bash attacks. When we remove the 1.0 cooldown the animations are choppy and look really bad at higher speeds.

The new Vanguard tree is being balanced with that 1.0 second cooldown taken into account. Yes, that means secondary Shield Bash attacks have to hit hard to compensate for the internal cooldown.

Sev~

If it can't proc more than once per second, and with the high attack rate of a swf, I don't think you need to invest to heavily into increased shield bash chance for it to still proc at it's cap of once per second.

Vanhooger
07-11-2014, 04:45 AM
Using this build dex to hit, con on dmg thunderforged handaxe t2, with paralyzing fear, that help use coup and get fast stack of blitz. So far the best melee build I ever played.

Also at 27, I really love PSWF with reign + skirmisher ring lol. 11d20 sonic + 11d20 electric + 35-60 sonic + 35-60 electric on 19-20 that happen quite often at that attack speed rate.

Using cleave attack, sometime happen to paralyze multiple mob and/or add negative lvl to all of them with endless night (19-20) augment slotted.

Soloed most of the chain on EE while etr with no problem.

Zoda
07-11-2014, 02:30 PM
Nice build.
The only thing I would question is that heavy starting point distribution in Str. Since Str does nothing for you, do you think it's really worth it just for OC?
I think those points would be better spend in dex for reflex and to-hit and pick up another feat. Plenty to chose from.

The original version I did on my test toon started 16 dex 10 str and no OC. On the screenshot of the opening post you can see that I had 79 reflex on that one, which I think is more than enough. I went for OC on the build of my main because I had +6 str tome avaialbe and also tripple brace past lives, meaning that my reflex will be the same (actually probably better, my test toon didn't have the best gear available, only +9 saves item and no +6 tomes), also don't forget the +5 to all saves vs spells for being a dwarf, I don't think I'll ever have reflex/fort problem, and if I fail a will save, there is always unstoppable and harper pin, worked perfect so far in all content. Another thing is that I doubt I can spend another epic feat for real value, I mean I can do stuff like +1 con or epic thoughness (which I will drop from the current setup when I hit completionist), but my hp already gonna be around 1700 on my main with max dps setup.

I was able to fit in every skill, including maxed intimidate with 8 starting INT, so no point doing that. CHA would only give some spell points and like +1 to perform, which is already no fail. WIS is not even real alternative, only +1/2 will...

I'm convinced that the current starting stat allocation is optimal.

Zoda
07-12-2014, 03:14 AM
Just capped my main with the updated build, here are the stats:

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p548/Zoda27/ScreenShot00110_zpsed817430.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Zoda27/media/ScreenShot00110_zpsed817430.jpg.html)

+6 tomes on STR, CHA, DEX, +5 on CON, +4 INT and WIS
Past lives showing on the character sheet are: 1 PDK, 3 Divine/brace, 3 bladeforged, 2 barb, 1 primal (no completionist yet)

Acrive buffs: Tenser's, Lasting Elixir, Haste, GH

Probably gonna change gear for more dps, it is not the finalized version, needs a bit of work here and there, but should give you a good idea on how stats look like in endgame.

Feithlin
07-12-2014, 03:36 AM
Why weapon finesse, since your strength is higher than your dex (or not far behind in the original version)?

Zoda
07-12-2014, 04:20 AM
Why weapon finesse, since your strength is higher than your dex (or not far behind in the original version)?

Ah, that's an editing mistake, thanks for pointing that out.

The initial version I made had no Overwhelming Crit, and started 16 dex for higher reflex, then I realized that my reflex is no fail anyway, and I have no to hit problems either, so I dropped it and picked up OC in its place. I just forgot to delete that line when I updated the post.

EDIT: just put the dps/survivability to a test here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/445258-E-E-Breaking-the-Ranks-solo-dwarven-swashbuckler?p=5378085#post5378085

Zoda
07-13-2014, 04:55 AM
Made a short gameplay video to give a better feel of the build's dps, survivability, selfheal etc... Tried to show how Fascinate can work on an endgame melee (although it is completely unnecessary in this quest, in harder fights it can save a lot of trouble), the use of doublestrike boost + anvil of thunder against high priority targets, for maximized chance of landing the helpless effect (orange named ice ele here). You can also see the amazing free cc you get from cleaving with a Guardbreaking buckler backed up by paralyzing TF weapon.


youtube.com/watch?v=saPZwy6aoDo&feature=youtu.be

Ancient
07-13-2014, 08:36 AM
The videos are great, thank you! You obviously don't have any issues with your CC DC. It also was very interesting to see the choices you made that were different from mine.

I do have a question, how do you get your cocoon so high? What do you do for devotion/healing amp items? On my test server build, I took the extreme choice of 150 positive spell power on tier 1 and I still was just barely breaking 100.

Zoda
07-13-2014, 09:20 AM
The videos are great, thank you! You obviously don't have any issues with your CC DC. It also was very interesting to see the choices you made that were different from mine.

I do have a question, how do you get your cocoon so high? What do you do for devotion/healing amp items? On my test server build, I took the extreme choice of 150 positive spell power on tier 1 and I still was just barely breaking 100.

For spellpower I have +15 heal and 138 devotion slotted, and empower healing. For healamp I have tripple pally past life, 30% on Iron Mitts, and 20% on random gen.

If you want to use a different bracer, like Dumathion (or my dream Health +11 Bracer of Seeker +10 ^^), then I highly sugges putting it on a TOD ring, I consider it essential.

Jhaeran
07-13-2014, 02:01 PM
For those who are intrigued by the build, but have less of an investment could you layout what may be possible with a 32 or 34 point build with minimal past lives?

I'm going to try it with a 34 pt build with a 2nd lifer - any major considerations? Since I won't have access to heavy tomes, I'll probably forego OC and keep Str down. Maybe 12 Str, 12 Dex, 20 Con, 8 Int, 8 Wis, 14 Cha? Can get PA at 3 when +1 tome kicks in.

Any other main considerations?

Zoda
07-13-2014, 04:58 PM
For those who are intrigued by the build, but have less of an investment could you layout what may be possible with a 32 or 34 point build with minimal past lives?

I'm going to try it with a 34 pt build with a 2nd lifer - any major considerations? Since I won't have access to heavy tomes, I'll probably forego OC and keep Str down. Maybe 12 Str, 12 Dex, 20 Con, 8 Int, 8 Wis, 14 Cha? Can get PA at 3 when +1 tome kicks in.

Any other main considerations?

It's definitely doable without pastlives, my test toon didn't really have any relevant pls and was still able to solo any e/e. Your layout looks about right, I wouldn't (and didn't) stretch for OC without the +6 tome.

Xezno
07-14-2014, 07:33 AM
Finally decided to take the great leap and TR out of my monk build (was getting a bit stale) into this build, and im liking it a lot. Currently at lvl 15.

With lamania up i experimentet a bit and im currently undecided if im going with your build, or if i am going with light picks in divine crusader (Still sentinel for tanking mode).

I would then take precision, toughness, epic toughness (and some other epic feat) instead of PA, Cleave, GCleave and OC.

Instead of Cleaves i would then use En Pointe (good with a x4 weapon) and Strike Down. I would loose out on 19 - 20 x3 but would have x4 instead of x3 on 15 - 20 making it break even. Exploit weaknesses would also favour the pick over the hand axe.

Blitz is great for soloing, but would you say a Crusader version could work just as good in groups?

Ancient
07-14-2014, 07:54 AM
Finally decided to take the great leap and TR out of my monk build (was getting a bit stale) into this build, and im liking it a lot. Currently at lvl 15.

With lamania up i experimentet a bit and im currently undecided if im going with your build, or if i am going with light picks in divine crusader (Still sentinel for tanking mode).

I would then take precision, toughness, epic toughness (and some other epic feat) instead of PA, Cleave, GCleave and OC.

Instead of Cleaves i would then use En Pointe (good with a x4 weapon) and Strike Down. I would loose out on 19 - 20 x3 but would have x4 instead of x3 on 15 - 20 making it break even. Exploit weaknesses would also favour the pick over the hand axe.

Blitz is great for soloing, but would you say a Crusader version could work just as good in groups?
Guard breaking is amazing with cleaves, en pointe is a much smaller cleave. I like en pointe, but wouldn't recommend dropping cleave/great cleave

Jhaeran
07-14-2014, 08:25 AM
Thoughts Pre-enhancement?

Seems like it should work, will flesh it out tonight. Hate how planner isn't updated yet :)

Unsure on lvl 18, 21, 24 feats and 2nd epic destiny feat


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Dwarf_Parody 12_6_2_Brd_Ftr_Rog
Level 28 True Neutral Dwarf Male
(6 Fighter \ 2 Rogue \ 12 Bard \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 574
Spell Points: 641
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 19
Reflex: 16
Will: 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(34 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28)
Strength 12 16
Dexterity 12 16
Constitution 20 31
Intelligence 8 12
Wisdom 8 12
Charisma 14 18

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 28)
Balance 5 33
Bluff 2 12
Concentration 5 41
Diplomacy 2 12
Disable Device 3 13
Haggle 2 12
Heal 1 11
Hide 1 11
Intimidate 6 16
Jump 1 16
Listen -1 11
Move Silently 1 11
Open Lock 5 19
Perform n/a 35
Repair -1 9
Search -1 11
Spellcraft -1 9
Spot 2 14
Swim 1 11
Tumble 2 14
Use Magic Device 6 35




1: SWF
3: Empower Heal
4: FTR Power Attack
5: FTR Cleave
6: Shield Mastery
8: FTR Improved SWF
9: Great Cleave
10: FTR Improved Crit Pierce
12: Improved Shield Mastery
15: Greater SWF
18: Toughness (or Quicken)
21: Bulwark of Defense
24: Quicken (Or something else?)
26: Perfect TWF
27: Epic Reflexes (at what reflex is it worth it?)
28E: Elusive Target (or something else)

Leveling order
1 Rogue, 2-3 Bard, 4-5 Ftr, 6 Bard, 7-10 Ftr, 11-15 Bard, 16 Rogue, 17-20 Bard

Ancient
07-14-2014, 08:56 AM
Thoughts Pre-enhancement?

My thoughts are that (for me) a build posted as a single run on sentence in one paragraph might be more readable than ron's build forum output.

You don't seem to have the skills in there, so why not just list the feats/stats and maybe level order if relevant. The blank lines and other spam do nothing but take up space for low value information that can be presented in a much more concise format.

legendkilleroll
07-14-2014, 09:13 AM
This looks very nice!

Ive been playing a human swashbuckler and having alot of fun

one thing tho, you in LD with only lithe twisted, i know swash boosts reflex but 83 is alot

Chimeran1
07-14-2014, 09:19 AM
Just capped my main with the updated build, here are the stats:

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p548/Zoda27/ScreenShot00110_zpsed817430.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Zoda27/media/ScreenShot00110_zpsed817430.jpg.html)

+6 tomes on STR, CHA, DEX, +5 on CON, +4 INT and WIS
Past lives showing on the character sheet are: 1 PDK, 3 Divine/brace, 3 bladeforged, 2 barb, 1 primal (no completionist yet)

Acrive buffs: Tenser's, Lasting Elixir, Haste, GH

Probably gonna change gear for more dps, it is not the finalized version, needs a bit of work here and there, but should give you a good idea on how stats look like in endgame.

Is it buffs that get the saves this high, or 12 levels in bard?
I can only seem to get my saves in the low 50's on my 7/12/1 currently level 27, 1 more level till TR :)

Zoda
07-14-2014, 10:59 AM
I listed every effect affecting any stat I had when I made the screenshot. I take +8 reflex from swashbuckler, +3 all saves comes from defender stance. A lot of ppl don't know that the +3 saves bonus from Elemental Mastery greensteel stacks with every other bonus in the game, that's another few that you might miss. I have 74 standing with shipbuffs only.

Also getting +5 to all saves vs spells from racial feat + enhancements.

I twist Lithe at this point more for capping my armor's MD so I can cap my dodge rather than for the reflex bonus it provides.

Ancient
07-14-2014, 11:09 AM
A lot of ppl don't know that the +3 saves bonus from Elemental Mastery greensteel stacks with every other bonus in the game

Not only did I not know this, I can't find the saves listed in the planners ( I tried both perfectweb and cubicleninja ).

Ancient
07-14-2014, 11:16 AM
Is that what the +3 resistances means under the tier 1 balance of land and sky? (I tried to edit, got this post instead).

Zoda
07-14-2014, 01:01 PM
Is that what the +3 resistances means under the tier 1 balance of land and sky? (I tried to edit, got this post instead).

Here it is:

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p548/Zoda27/ScreenShot00122_zps4de1fe95.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Zoda27/media/ScreenShot00122_zps4de1fe95.jpg.html)

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
07-14-2014, 05:16 PM
Great build there Zoda! Traditionally, I always recommended against splashing bard this much. However this is one of those rare occasions I'm open to 12 bard. Actually Turbine's current work on bards is going to encourage and spawn all kinds of class and race splits previously considered gimpsauce.

Chimeran1
07-15-2014, 12:34 AM
I listed every effect affecting any stat I had when I made the screenshot. I take +8 reflex from swashbuckler, +3 all saves comes from defender stance. A lot of ppl don't know that the +3 saves bonus from Elemental Mastery greensteel stacks with every other bonus in the game, that's another few that you might miss. I have 74 standing with shipbuffs only.

Also getting +5 to all saves vs spells from racial feat + enhancements.

I twist Lithe at this point more for capping my armor's MD so I can cap my dodge rather than for the reflex bonus it provides.

Still can't figure out the high saves on your toon.
Swashbuckler is +6 to reflex ( tier 5 3/3 )
With a +5 dexterity tome and a + 8 item ( I can only get 60 reflex in stalwart defence stance with divine crusader)
My base dex was 12

So I need to find 14 more reflex from somewhere? I made the green steel cloak you have.

Will saves are only 52 with a 32 Charisma, still way short.

Am I doing something wrong?

Zoda
07-15-2014, 01:01 AM
Still can't figure out the high saves on your toon.
Swashbuckler is +6 to reflex ( tier 5 3/3 )
With a +5 dexterity tome and a + 8 item ( I can only get 60 reflex in stalwart defence stance with divine crusader)
My base dex was 12

So I need to find 14 more reflex from somewhere? I made the green steel cloak you have.

Will saves are only 52 with a 32 Charisma, still way short.

Am I doing something wrong?

I take only 2 ranks fo 2nd skin, which is 4 reflex, but Swashbuckler still gives me a total of 8 because I take 4 cores.

I have +8 dex item, +4 insightful dex, +1 profane, +1 exceptional, also +6 tome, that's 7 dex difference already.

For saves I have +10 resistance bonus, +4 insight, +3 land and sky, +2 good luck, +1 alchemical, +1 profane.

Also getting +3 to all saves for tripple Brace past life.

On the screenshot, I had GH, Tenser's Transformation, Haste, and Lasting Elixir of Supreme Ability active for a total +8 reflex.

Will saved is not based on CHA (unless if you take force of personality, but I highly advice against that on this build).

Belief
07-15-2014, 01:36 AM
I take only 2 ranks fo 2nd skin, which is 4 reflex, but Swashbuckler still gives me a total of 8 because I take 4 cores.

I have +8 dex item, +4 insightful dex, +1 profane, +1 exceptional, also +6 tome, that's 7 dex difference already.

For saves I have +10 resistance bonus, +4 insight, +3 land and sky, +2 good luck, +1 alchemical, +1 profane.

Also getting +3 to all saves for tripple Brace past life.

On the screenshot, I had GH, Tenser's Transformation, Haste, and Lasting Elixir of Supreme Ability active for a total +8 reflex.

Will saved is not based on CHA (unless if you take force of personality, but I highly advice against that on this build).


Does the +3 from Land and Sky stack w/ a +6 resistance item? I read that it does which seemed weird, and I was "just" about to make one after seeing your video, but my friend doubts it stacks despite what I've read. He's suggesting I go Displace Clicky + 20% perma Blur on my HP Cloak instead of yours.

Thoughts?

Chimeran1
07-15-2014, 01:46 AM
I take only 2 ranks fo 2nd skin, which is 4 reflex, but Swashbuckler still gives me a total of 8 because I take 4 cores.

I have +8 dex item, +4 insightful dex, +1 profane, +1 exceptional, also +6 tome, that's 7 dex difference already.

For saves I have +10 resistance bonus, +4 insight, +3 land and sky, +2 good luck, +1 alchemical, +1 profane.

Also getting +3 to all saves for tripple Brace past life.

On the screenshot, I had GH, Tenser's Transformation, Haste, and Lasting Elixir of Supreme Ability active for a total +8 reflex.

Will saved is not based on CHA (unless if you take force of personality, but I highly advice against that on this build).

Thanks for the breakdown, yes my gear is letting me down. I will need to sort that out.
Currently just zerging to TR into this build :)
I hope the females get beards as well :) ....

Zoda
07-15-2014, 01:51 AM
Thoughts?

Potato.

Belief
07-15-2014, 02:02 AM
Potato.

:(

CThruTheEgo
07-15-2014, 08:39 AM
Awesome build Zoda. I considered a lot of different options when developing Monte Cristo, but I never thought of dwarf with throw your weight around for the 12/6/2 split because I'm just not a fan of dwarfs. That's great synergy though. I'd like to try this just to have a bard with 2k+ hp lol.

Takllin
07-15-2014, 09:49 AM
:(

He stated on Page 4 that it does in fact stack with everything.

He has me to thank for that bit of knowledge :D

Seikojin
07-15-2014, 10:44 AM
Most GS stuff has weird stacking rules because how that system was built.

CiaoBoy
07-15-2014, 11:19 AM
What if you were a PDK instead of a dwarf, maxing out charisma instead of constitution? With Cormyrean Training, you could get 100% dam bonus based on cha modifier and another 100% dam bonus based on Different Tack (cha), and your cha would be even higher since you could make str a dump stat (or keep it as is if you really want overwhelming critical). Right now you are missing some dam bonus because there is no Different Tack (con). As a side benefit, your DCs with perform after cha modifiers are applied would be higher as well.

With high cha, you could get Force of Personality and actually get great will saves, instead of one based off of a dumped wis stat. It's even more of a benefit because that gets magnified by the Slippery Mind feat from the swashbuckler tree.

Do you find any issues with not being about to fascinate other types of mobs, which you would be able to do if you had invested in the spellsinger tree?

Do you find any issues with mobs that are immune to crits?

And as a PDK, you could invest in healing amp which should make you a more efficient tank as someone already mentioned, even though your starting bucket of HP is not as high. As long as you have enough HP to prevent being one-shot, it's more efficient SP-wise if you can refill the constantly emptying HP bucket in a more efficient manner.

-CiaoBoy

Xezno
07-15-2014, 11:43 AM
What if you were a PDK instead of a dwarf, maxing out charisma instead of constitution? With Cormyrean Training, you could get 100% dam bonus based on cha modifier and another 100% dam bonus based on Different Tack (cha), and your cha would be even higher since you could make str a dump stat (or keep it as is if you really want overwhelming critical). Right now you are missing some dam bonus because there is no Different Tack (con). As a side benefit, your DCs with perform after cha modifiers are applied would be higher as well.

With high cha, you could get Force of Personality and actually get great will saves, instead of one based off of a dumped wis stat. It's even more of a benefit because that gets magnified by the Slippery Mind feat from the swashbuckler tree.

Do you find any issues with not being about to fascinate other types of mobs, which you would be able to do if you had invested in the spellsinger tree?

Do you find any issues with mobs that are immune to crits?

And as a PDK, you could invest in healing amp which should make you a more efficient tank as someone already mentioned, even though your starting bucket of HP is not as high. As long as you have enough HP to prevent being one-shot, it's more efficient SP-wise if you can refill the constantly emptying HP bucket in a more efficient manner.

-CiaoBoy

Cormyrian training and diffirent tack do not stack. Both the dps and Hp would be substantially less on such a build. Dwarf gives +5 dmg with axes or hammers and your CON can get a lot higher than charisma.

What makes this split so good is the defender stance. It totally negates the fact that you can not take the +6 str from t5 defender since its no use to this build. Not being able to use any rage buffs i a major disadvantage to other builds.

A PDK is a totally diffirent build.

CiaoBoy
07-15-2014, 11:59 AM
Cormyrean Training and Different Tack don't stack? Damn.

I was testing a drow bard with dumped str on Lamannia and GSWF's 100% dam bonus seemed to stack with Different Tack. I used a crappy two-handed weapon was doing about 20 dam per melee attack. And when I wielded a crappy dagger and turned on swashbuckling, I was doing about 70 dam (cha modifier was +22). Looks to me like the +22 cha modifier is getting 200% applied to it.

-CiaoBoy



Cormyrian training and diffirent tack do not stack. Both the dps and Hp would be substantially less on such a build. Dwarf gives +5 dmg with axes or hammers and your CON can get a lot higher than charisma.

What makes this split so good is the defender stance. It totally negates the fact that you can not take the +6 str from t5 defender since its no use to this build. Not being able to use any rage buffs i a major disadvantage to other builds.

A PDK is a totally diffirent build.

CThruTheEgo
07-15-2014, 12:11 PM
Cormyrean Training and Different Tack don't stack? Damn.

I was testing a drow bard with dumped str on Lamannia and GSWF's 100% dam bonus seemed to stack with Different Tack. I used a crappy two-handed weapon was doing about 20 dam per melee attack. And when I wielded a crappy dagger and turned on swashbuckling, I was doing about 70 dam (cha modifier was +22). Looks to me like the +22 cha modifier is getting 200% applied to it.

-CiaoBoy

Greater single weapon fighting applies 200% of your damage stat modifier to your damage, regardless of which stat is being used for damage. Different tack simply allows you to use your dex/int/cha (whichever one you choose) modifier for damage instead of str. Cormyrean training also allows you to use your cha for damage. But you don't get your cha modifier applied twice if you have both Cormyrean training and different tack (charisma).

CiaoBoy
07-15-2014, 12:36 PM
Ahh, I see. Thanks for the clarification!

-CiaoBoy



Greater single weapon fighting applies 200% of your damage stat modifier to your damage, regardless of which stat is being used for damage. Different tack simply allows you to use your dex/int/cha (whichever one you choose) modifier for damage instead of str. Cormyrean training also allows you to use your cha for damage. But you don't get your cha modifier applied twice if you have both Cormyrean training and different tack (charisma).

Ancient
07-15-2014, 01:25 PM
What if you were a PDK instead of a dwarf, maxing out charisma instead of constitution? With Cormyrean Training, you could get 100% dam bonus based on cha modifier and another 100% dam bonus based on Different Tack (cha), and your cha would be even higher since you could make str a dump stat (or keep it as is if you really want overwhelming critical). Right now you are missing some dam bonus because there is no Different Tack (con). As a side benefit, your DCs with perform after cha modifiers are applied would be higher as well.

With high cha, you could get Force of Personality and actually get great will saves, instead of one based off of a dumped wis stat. It's even more of a benefit because that gets magnified by the Slippery Mind feat from the swashbuckler tree.

Do you find any issues with not being about to fascinate other types of mobs, which you would be able to do if you had invested in the spellsinger tree?

Do you find any issues with mobs that are immune to crits?

And as a PDK, you could invest in healing amp which should make you a more efficient tank as someone already mentioned, even though your starting bucket of HP is not as high. As long as you have enough HP to prevent being one-shot, it's more efficient SP-wise if you can refill the constantly emptying HP bucket in a more efficient manner.

-CiaoBoy

I chased the PDK build very hard. My character on live is actually a PDK. The videos I did on doing elites (both heroic and epic) were with a PDK. There are advantages for the PDK (many easy to get short swords, heal amp, extra feat/skill point). As far as investing skill points in other places... after you spend 24 on stalwart defender and 33-40+ on swashbuckler and at least 2 in PDK race (probably more if you want healing amp)... you aren't going to be going deep in very many other trees. You also need at least 13 str for power attack, so you cannot completely dump str.

That said, I prefer the dwarf build. The DPS is higher, the extra hit points are nice and the perform DC is fine. Why is the DPS higher? Several reasons, it is easier to boost con (+6 from stalwart, primal scream, tensors). Legendary dreadnaught has better synergy with axes/picks, and light picks have a better multiplier. If you are really worried about the will save, you can take forced escape instead of epic reflexes since most will save failures simply put you in a helpless state.

Zoda
07-15-2014, 02:04 PM
Will save is 54 and you get +5 against magic on it (can't even think of any will save that's not against magic) for an effective 59, which is just fine, wasting a feat on something like +3/+4 will save is bad idea imo.

Forced Escape is a destiny feat, so you can't switch Epic Reflex for it, but the build already has access to Unstoppable from LD and Greater Harper Pin, I literally can't think of a single occasion on which I was being CC'd with something other than knockdown.

On the DPS department dwarf is missing racial damage boost, which is actually big, but I think it's a good exchange for what we get.

Ancient
07-15-2014, 02:26 PM
Forced Escape is a destiny feat, so you can't switch Epic Reflex for it.

You would have to switch epic reflexes->toughness and then switch the destiny toughness -> forced escape... This might involve moving perfect single weapon fighting down to the level 26 destiny feat as well. However, you make a great point that it really isn't needed in the first place.

Amideus
07-16-2014, 08:22 AM
I understand you said you were not fully geared out where you wanted to be, but I was wondering if you could give a gear breakdown, or at least a prioritization of gear that you'd like to get. I'm currently leveling this build as my third life on Khyber and would like to know what items to keep an eye out for since 90% of my cache is full of monk handwraps and outfits (last three lives were monks before they broke QP). I trie search through the thread to see if it was maybe addressed in another post but didn't see anything.

Zoda
07-16-2014, 08:50 AM
Here is another gameplay video, probably presents the build better than the first one I posted

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BkpYGQrYsg&feature=youtu.be
It was a bit of an unusual run, as something funky was going in the 2nd instance. I took it slow so I can show more of how to use certain tactics, could be done way faster with the build.

(still processing, will be available shortly)


I understand you said you were not fully geared out where you wanted to be, but I was wondering if you could give a gear breakdown, or at least a prioritization of gear that you'd like to get. I'm currently leveling this build as my third life on Khyber and would like to know what items to keep an eye out for since 90% of my cache is full of monk handwraps and outfits (last three lives were monks before they broke QP). I trie search through the thread to see if it was maybe addressed in another post but didn't see anything.

Sure, here is my current layout:

Helm: Dragon Masque
Armor: Shadow Dragonhide Armor (shadow killer upgrade)
Neck: Necklace of Mystic Eidolons
Boots: e/e Goarskin Boots (+8 dex)
Bracers: Convalescent Bracer of Superior Parrying
Belt: Health +10 Belt of Seeker +10
Trinket: Litany of the Dead
Ring1: Seal of House Avithoul
Ring2: Ring of Deceit
Cloak: GS hp (elemenal mastery aka. land and sky2)
Goggles: Charismatic +9 Goggles of Resistance +10 (placeholder, probably gonna replace GS on this slot and use Cloak of the Wolf in my current GS's place, Shadowsight is not a bad alternative)

Shield: Epic Swashbuckler
Weapon: TF crafted handaxe (I suggest going for 1st degree burns/dragon's edge/mortal fear on the first one you craft)

I have 2 empty blue and 2 empty cololrless slots with this after everything necessary is slotted, so I'm not gonna bother to list which item I slotted with whatever augment, I have all the goodstuff slotted, shouldn't be hard to get the same result.

Now, a lot depends on what random gens you get, at the moment I'd murder for a +11 CON bracer of seeker +10, it'd let me create a pretty badass layout. A better resistance +10 item would be also great, but I'm fairly satisfied with the current layout. You have space to use a spellpoint GS item if you wish, if you make it with CHA skills +6, then you can drop Ring of Deceit and slot a perform +15 diamond somewhere. Skirmisher's Ring is a nice option if you are using PSWF. I'll eventually try to get and fit in the Battlarager's Harness.

Eth
07-16-2014, 09:12 AM
Here is another gameplay video, probably presents the build better than the first one I posted

The video is flagged as private ;)

Zoda
07-16-2014, 09:53 AM
The video is flagged as private ;)

Well, it's still processing anyway... what's 34 GB in a 45-50 minutes video lol

Miow
07-16-2014, 09:53 AM
I'm thinking about doing this build for my bard life, i will probably be doing another tr after reaching 20 how is the leveling progression for this build performance wise? What exactly would be the class order for leveling in that context?

Lvl 1 Rogue, etc...

Or on second thought am i better off going human if i'm only going to lvl 20? I like dorfs....

Chimeran1
07-16-2014, 08:48 PM
Why hand-axe over light picks? It seems that en pointe and exploit weakness would both bring bigger gains to the light pick than the hand axe.

*EDIT* Nevermind, headsman chop. I found the answer.

I tested both thunder forged rapier and light pick, light pick was crit scoring +100-120 damage higher than my rapier, so will be interested to see if TF hand axe can keep up.

Chimeran1
07-16-2014, 08:52 PM
I made a mortal fear Thunder forged weapon but actually prefer the AOE and level drain on crits.
As a swashbuckler with high crit rates ( 12 in 3 seconds ) the level drain is very effective and I like the animations and sounds for it :)

1st degree burns
Wrath of flames
Crippling flames

Zoda
07-16-2014, 09:44 PM
I'm thinking about doing this build for my bard life, i will probably be doing another tr after reaching 20 how is the leveling progression for this build performance wise? What exactly would be the class order for leveling in that context?

Lvl 1 Rogue, etc...

Or on second thought am i better off going human if i'm only going to lvl 20? I like dorfs....

The build is super easy to level, but yes, if you just want a past life, human is probably better with a modified build.

Xezno
07-16-2014, 11:04 PM
I have bin thinking of how i best can implement Precision into this build. Since its crit basen, having Precision would be a major advantage against crit immune Mobs. I have two options as i see it:

1. Take it instead of OC : AS i see it OC does not add a lot of DPS percentage wise. 10% Chance at a x1 crit adds up to about 2% increase in total.

2. Drop two levels of Bard for fighter.

Chimeran1
07-17-2014, 12:03 AM
I have bin thinking of how i best can implement Precision into this build. Since its crit basen, having Precision would be a major advantage against crit immune Mobs. I have two options as i see it:

1. Take it instead of OC : AS i see it OC does not add a lot of DPS percentage wise. 10% Chance at a x1 crit adds up to about 2% increase in total.

2. Drop two levels of Bard for fighter.

If you are not taking power attack, then yes Precision is an obvious choice if going swashbuckler.
This build really just shows how dwarf can use constitution to damage, the build is very open to customisation.
I like the OP's feedback on his leveling process, videos etc.
The 12/6/2 works well, but you can go as low as 7 bard and still fascinate EE mobs, you just lose out on few spells and less spell duration.

You can easily take all the feats you require as I have done in other swashbuckler builds.
For my play style, I will use all the original posters dwarf race enhancements and feats but go 8/10/2, or 7/10/3
As soon as I transfer all the 100's of reincarnation cache items.... Sheesh what a pita.

Xezno
07-17-2014, 04:57 AM
If you are not taking power attack, then yes Precision is an obvious choice if going swashbuckler.
This build really just shows how dwarf can use constitution to damage, the build is very open to customisation.
I like the OP's feedback on his leveling process, videos etc.
The 12/6/2 works well, but you can go as low as 7 bard and still fascinate EE mobs, you just lose out on few spells and less spell duration.

You can easily take all the feats you require as I have done in other swashbuckler builds.
For my play style, I will use all the original posters dwarf race enhancements and feats but go 8/10/2, or 7/10/3
As soon as I transfer all the 100's of reincarnation cache items.... Sheesh what a pita.

Was actually thinking about taking both PA and Precision since PA is required for Cleaves. I would atleast go 10 levels of Bard so i dont loose out on cure critical. Lvl 12 gives you another Swashbuckler core though for some more dps.

I am really thinking about going for Divine Crusader as i really dont like the blitz mechanic. I am very unsure if i could drop the cleave feats and PA then though - i do get a 12 sec cleave from crusader after all.

Steel_Kosta
07-17-2014, 05:43 AM
Was actually thinking about taking both PA and Precision since PA is required for Cleaves. I would atleast go 10 levels of Bard so i dont loose out on cure critical. Lvl 12 gives you another Swashbuckler core though for some more dps.

I am really thinking about going for Divine Crusader as i really dont like the blitz mechanic. I am very unsure if i could drop the cleave feats and PA then though - i do get a 12 sec cleave from crusader after all.

I'm TRing into this build one of my secondary toon after thinkin a lot on it (was undecided on 20 human pure bard) .
I'm pretty sure I'll do 10bard/8ftr/2rog , since I feel I'd need extend for displacement in endgame and it will be useful levelin too .

So , my heroic feats should be :
pow, clv , gr clv
shmas , Ishmas
swf , Iswf , Gswf
emp heal , quicken , extend
Icrit
Toughness
13 feats , but only 12 available before lvl 21
at 21 and 24 i'd take OvCrit and EpicTou :
which one you think is better to move at lvl 27 ?

Ty for advice

Amideus
07-17-2014, 05:46 PM
I'm thinking about doing this build for my bard life, i will probably be doing another tr after reaching 20 how is the leveling progression for this build performance wise? What exactly would be the class order for leveling in that context?

Lvl 1 Rogue, etc...

Or on second thought am i better off going human if i'm only going to lvl 20? I like dorfs....

I'm currently running this build as my current life, got tired of trying to make fun monk builds only to have their primary aspect changed or nerfed by the time I had it finished at endgame. It's super super easy, and I'm finding it hard pressed to choose a bad leveling path. First level rogue is a given, but I went this direction for skills, early swashbuckling stance, and high survival in quests.
1 R
2 F
3-5 B
6 R
7-11 F
12-20 B

Currently at level 11 and loving it. With the right gear I can self heal decently in solo quests, I have a ton of health, I can pretty much annihilate anything that can be crit, my saves are average, but I can't do of level traps yet. Up until around level 9 I could trap anything on elite with pots and gear, but I'm finding that I'm about 3-4 search away from getting the traps. Most likely because I was only getting 2 skillpoints for all those fighter levels. I'd say if you wanted to you could try holding off on Rogue until 7 for an extra skill point, but not a breaking point. It also is most likely because I am using less than desirable trapping equipment, I would kill for a +10 search item just can't find of craft them.

Chimeran1
07-17-2014, 11:57 PM
I'm currently running this build as my current life, got tired of trying to make fun monk builds only to have their primary aspect changed or nerfed by the time I had it finished at endgame. It's super super easy, and I'm finding it hard pressed to choose a bad leveling path. First level rogue is a given, but I went this direction for skills, early swashbuckling stance, and high survival in quests.
1 R
2 F
3-5 B
6 R
7-11 F
12-20 B

Currently at level 11 and loving it. With the right gear I can self heal decently in solo quests, I have a ton of health, I can pretty much annihilate anything that can be crit, my saves are average, but I can't do of level traps yet. Up until around level 9 I could trap anything on elite with pots and gear, but I'm finding that I'm about 3-4 search away from getting the traps. Most likely because I was only getting 2 skillpoints for all those fighter levels. I'd say if you wanted to you could try holding off on Rogue until 7 for an extra skill point, but not a breaking point. It also is most likely because I am using less than desirable trapping equipment, I would kill for a +10 search item just can't find of craft them.

Hard way to level waiting so long before you have 3 bard levels = no swashbuckler stance, can't use buckler while SWF.
It would suck hard core unless you have a +20LR sitting around or you can pike through 12 levels.

Ancient
07-18-2014, 12:32 AM
Hard way to level waiting so long before you have 3 bard levels = no swashbuckler stance, can't use buckler while SWF.
It would suck hard core unless you have a +20LR sitting around or you can pike through 12 levels.
How do you figure? Here is the plan I laid out:

1 - Rogue for skills
2-5 Fighter to get great cleave as soon as possible
6-8 Bard to get stance
9-10 Fighter to get ISWF and iCrit
11-12 Bard to get tier 5 swashbuckler at 12
13 Rogue for evasion
14-20 Bard

For levels 1-8, fight with a 2 handed axe. It works great with cleave/great cleave. No piking needed anywhere along that path.

Chimeran1
07-18-2014, 03:25 AM
How do you figure? Here is the plan I laid out:

1 - Rogue for skills
2-5 Fighter to get great cleave as soon as possible
6-8 Bard to get stance
9-10 Fighter to get ISWF and iCrit
11-12 Bard to get tier 5 swashbuckler at 12
13 Rogue for evasion
14-20 Bard

For levels 1-8, fight with a 2 handed axe. It works great with cleave/great cleave. No piking needed anywhere along that path.

I was going to bypass it at the start, but ended up with a mother load of unspent enhance points and slowly swinging a 2 hander, when I knew the toon could be so much more :)
It was a slow and painful process.
Did the 1st rogue, 2nd fighter, 3,4 and 5 bard to get the whole swashbuckler feel right from the start, maxed fascinate via perform and good UMD, can easily play catch up when I get the levels later on.
Each to their own, I just felt as an under par axe swinger pretty dull.

Chimeran1
07-18-2014, 04:09 AM
Was actually thinking about taking both PA and Precision since PA is required for Cleaves. I would atleast go 10 levels of Bard so i dont loose out on cure critical. Lvl 12 gives you another Swashbuckler core though for some more dps.

I am really thinking about going for Divine Crusader as i really dont like the blitz mechanic. I am very unsure if i could drop the cleave feats and PA then though - i do get a 12 sec cleave from crusader after all.


2 extra levels in fighter is an extra feat ....
If you are going for the melee build swash, then cleave and greater cleave is where it's at. The cool downs are fast and with divine crusader you have almost a continuous cleave attack line.

The 12/6/2 swash is a very user friendly build and a great entry level build to teach the ropes for exploring the potentials of the different play styles of swash buckler.
It is very easy to run a swash with a lot less bard levels with more feats and much higher dps.
I loved the 12/6/2, but really loved it with more fighter levels. Very devastating toon once you get into the low 20's.

Xezno
07-18-2014, 05:40 AM
2 extra levels in fighter is an extra feat ....
If you are going for the melee build swash, then cleave and greater cleave is where it's at. The cool downs are fast and with divine crusader you have almost a continuous cleave attack line.

The 12/6/2 swash is a very user friendly build and a great entry level build to teach the ropes for exploring the potentials of the different play styles of swash buckler.
It is very easy to run a swash with a lot less bard levels with more feats and much higher dps.
I loved the 12/6/2, but really loved it with more fighter levels. Very devastating toon once you get into the low 20's.

Ill go 12 bard levels for now and skip out on OC - since i didnt take enough str on this TR. Ill take Precision instead. Ill use this toon to experiment a lot and then LR later.

Yes this toon is incredibly strong. Even now at lvl 18 i have about 200 hp more than anyone else (700) and i have like 2 or 3 times the kill count of other people in my group - and thats using a +5 holy handaxe lol.

Zoda
07-18-2014, 05:51 AM
Precision looks better on paper than in practice. You can't use Momentum Swing without active power attack, AP is already stretched, Thread the Needle will stretch it further. The build already has 35% armor piercing and improved destruction, which is more than enough for regular questing, and in ee raids the party will debuff boss fort even lower (weaken undead/construct item, regular destruction etc). I don't think it worths taking.

I also see no point of dropping bard levels for fighter. The build can take every feat required already and can fit in completionist easily if you have it. Dropping bard levels only results in weaker cures because of the caster level loss and loss of some mildly valueable spell slots, and the loss of lvl 12 swashbuckler core, which is not great, but still better to get some extra than gimping yourself for no real reason.

My 2 cents.

Other:
I'll try my best to get an e/e Wyrm and/or FOT going on the weekend (it is hard on Argo lately) and record some tanking action. I tanked the TO for a pug elite FOT few days ago in LD and it was hell of a fun standing toe to toe with it and bash his face :)

Xezno
07-18-2014, 06:38 AM
Precision looks better on paper than in practice. You can't use Momentum Swing without active power attack, AP is already stretched, Thread the Needle will stretch it further. The build already has 35% armor piercing and improved destruction, which is more than enough for regular questing, and in ee raids the party will debuff boss fort even lower (weaken undead/construct item, regular destruction etc). I don't think it worths taking.

I also see no point of dropping bard levels for fighter. The build can take every feat required already and can fit in completionist easily if you have it. Dropping bard levels only results in weaker cures because of the caster level loss and loss of some mildly valueable spell slots, and the loss of lvl 12 swashbuckler core, which is not great, but still better to get some extra than gimping yourself for no real reason.

My 2 cents.

Other:
I'll try my best to get an e/e Wyrm and/or FOT going on the weekend (it is hard on Argo lately) and record some tanking action. I tanked the TO for a pug elite FOT few days ago in LD and it was hell of a fun standing toe to toe with it and bash his face :)

Ill just try out this build with both Dreadnought and Crusader to see what fits me the most. Im in no doubt that blitzing is king for soloing, but i dont solo a lot. Also i hate the blitzing mechanic and find Zeal much more to my liking. If i end up with crusader precision ends up being a lot better.

Since i did not take enough str i might as well take Precision instead of OC to try it out.

Lifespawn
07-18-2014, 03:13 PM
Ill just try out this build with both Dreadnought and Crusader to see what fits me the most. Im in no doubt that blitzing is king for soloing, but i dont solo a lot. Also i hate the blitzing mechanic and find Zeal much more to my liking. If i end up with crusader precision ends up being a lot better.

Since i did not take enough str i might as well take Precision instead of OC to try it out.


This is basically what I did 12b 6 ftr 2 barb took precision and pa but not using pa and going to be in crusader with the crit rate of the build I shouldn't have to wear a double strike item at all with the 10% available from DC I just wish it stacked with items.

45% attack speed with 35% possibly 45% constant double strike a class clicky for 30 more and a destiny clicky for 50% more over 100% double strike should make for 20 of a boatload of damage.

Jhaeran
07-19-2014, 01:50 PM
Skills and leveling order

Was trying to plan out my TR (keep talking about it but never actually doing it)

Any insight into leveling order and skills?

Thought about increasing INT to 11 (+1 tome) for the cost of 1 con - but even then couldn't really fit in rogue skills.


23 - Max Perform (ideally on bard lvls)
23 - Max UMD (ideally on bard/rogue lvls)
7 - Balance at least 7 ranks - max it?
1 in tumble


Increase Concentration and drop quicken or at least have the possibility of dropping? If you use quicken, can you reliably skip concentration fully?
Open lock seems easy - throw the initial 4 pts and maybe 5 or 6 points at your next rogue level

Lack of Jump is annoying - few pts at least?
Increase heal for better healing? All cross class, max 11
Disable, search and spot all seem out of reach - possibly increase spot/search for secret doors

Zoda
07-19-2014, 02:52 PM
Increase Concentration and drop quicken or at least have the possibility of dropping? If you use quicken, can you reliably skip concentration fully?


That's an incredibly bad idea. On a scale of 1 to 10, it is potato.

Chimeran1
07-19-2014, 04:15 PM
Ill go 12 bard levels for now and skip out on OC - since i didnt take enough str on this TR. Ill take Precision instead. Ill use this toon to experiment a lot and then LR later.

Yes this toon is incredibly strong. Even now at lvl 18 i have about 200 hp more than anyone else (700) and i have like 2 or 3 times the kill count of other people in my group - and thats using a +5 holy handaxe lol.

Yes I often skip OC even when I can take it, don't believe the hype :)

I am currently level 10 and have almost 300hp.
Level 9 gear allows +5 stat items, so as long as you have those and there are even +20hp master crafted etc for anyone not over 250hp yet.

I have also found the named item " Rock splitter " heavy pick from Eye of Stone quest allows the use of single weapon fighting while a buckler is equipped , not sure if this is WAI or not ( you lose the swash stance but keep the SWF ) but the damage is very high with the Dwarven pick racial bonuses and it's a lot faster attack speed than a great axe or 2 hander.

Rock splitter standard is level 10 item available from AH or quest chest
Rock splitter upgraded is level 12 - add maiming for bigger dps crits.

Though I don't see any difference in dps from my previous strength build, the extra HP is nice.

Chimeran1
07-19-2014, 04:34 PM
Skills and leveling order

Was trying to plan out my TR (keep talking about it but never actually doing it)

Any insight into leveling order and skills?

Thought about increasing INT to 11 (+1 tome) for the cost of 1 con - but even then couldn't really fit in rogue skills.


23 - Max Perform (ideally on bard lvls)
23 - Max UMD (ideally on bard/rogue lvls)
7 - Balance at least 7 ranks - max it?
1 in tumble

Increase Concentration and drop quicken or at least have the possibility of dropping? If you use quicken, can you reliably skip concentration fully?
Open lock seems easy - throw the initial 4 pts and maybe 5 or 6 points at your next rogue level

Lack of Jump is annoying - few pts at least?
Increase heal for better healing? All cross class, max 11
Disable, search and spot all seem out of reach - possibly increase spot/search for secret doors

Take a rogue level first for the extra skill points.
Then a few bard levels for blur, rest fighter for feats, another rogue for evasion.
Save a few bard levels for last so you can catch up on the skills UMD and perform. ( save 4 or so bard levels )

I went max constitution, after all it is for your hit points and damage so is paramount over any other stat, also it is cheaper for a dwarf to max out.... Intelligence bah.. Roll an elf :)
Trying to go bard with rogue skills is far too skill point heavy, trying to do it all just spells dead gimp and the amount of gear you need to carry for swap outs is a pita.

You can however max out open locks as it works off your dex score, and a locked chest you can't open because your level 3 wand of knock sucks is just torture when soloing.
( again totally up to your play style as it removes skill points from something else )

Get your reflex up, you have evasion, improved dodge, greater heroism, swashbuckler reflex bonuses, stalwart defender save bonuses... Is there a trap you even need to worry about, even on elite?... I don't think so.
You can always resurrect pure build trap fodder, well what's left of them after you scrape your boots. ( pure builds..... " but I love my old pen and paper build " )
:/ saving throw vs traps failed :)

I think with just 2 rogue levels even allows for the feat improved evasion in Epic feats?
Go test it out on Elite Lord of Dust or grab a rogue hireling.
Then after level 20, test again on epic levels. For me, LoD sets the standard.
If you come out as mince meat, improve your gear.

Maxed UMD and perform are the main 2 skills, heal skill yeah if you want, concentrate i never ever bothered, never took quicken, never had a problem.
Balance is also important, I tend to get that as high as possible.
Jump, don't bother, use pots or gear clickies.
You adapt your play style to suit and when in doubt , click improved dodge, jump around like a muppet on crack while recasting your displace or D door... Problem solved
The crack monkey has left the stage via D door to safety.

Gnarkh
07-19-2014, 06:31 PM
For starters, thanks for this build. It's awesome and fun. Also easy to customize. :)

Probably the most fun melee toon I ever had.


Trying to go bard with rogue skills is far too skill point heavy, trying to do it all just spells dead gimp and the amount of gear you need to carry for swap outs is a pita.

Well, I went that route. Indeed with a sacrifice. I started with 18 Con instead of 20 and up'ed Intelligence to 14.

What can I say, I like skill points and trap skills, as I play in groups and PUGs very often with questionable trap dodge skills. :)

In the big scheme of things...it's far from "gimp". It's a couple HP less and -1 Base Damage / To Hit. With better tomes (only got a +2 Int on that toon...), you might even get away with a little less dex or charisma instead. (losing 1-2 point of fascinate DC maybe. or 1-2 point of reflex save...)

It's still a narrow fit with 14 Int. Heal skill did suffer for me. (imho the least crucial skill of the original setup). You also need to be a bit more conscious about level ups (max. Intim on fighter levels, etc...), but it's entirely possible.

And I'd probably min-max that a bit better on my next life...

Regarding Quicken.

Imho, a quickened, empowered Cocoon and Cure spell combo is quite essential. Great feat investment. (also, I believe the OP feat selection is pretty much ideal, so you're not missing out on anything essential really). Depends a bit maybe if you actually tank and selfheal, which makes spell interrupts a concern indeed.

Fully agree on concentration, it's a very minor concern on this build. In theory it helps with scrolling midfight, but well...:)

Rull
07-20-2014, 04:10 PM
I'd go crazy without both 60% song duration from spellsinger and lasting inspiration...

Lifespawn
07-20-2014, 06:59 PM
I'd go crazy without both 60% song duration from spellsinger and lasting inspiration...

people build for 1 min buffs 4 min is plenty

gwonbush
07-20-2014, 11:22 PM
I'd go crazy without both 60% song duration from spellsinger and lasting inspiration...

In this build, Inspire Courage doesn't matter as much as it might (only provides 2 damage and to hit) and you don't have Inspire Excellence either.

Zoda
07-21-2014, 04:35 AM
I'd go crazy without both 60% song duration from spellsinger and lasting inspiration...

The only song worths singing with this build is fascinate and the duration is just enough for me to kill everything before it ends. Stay spellsinger.

Chimeran1
07-21-2014, 05:35 AM
In this build, Inspire Courage doesn't matter as much as it might (only provides 2 damage and to hit) and you don't have Inspire Excellence either.

That's why I like the dwarf, with the racial bonus to damage, it nullifies the need for points into Kensai.
With gear it is quite easy to be crit hitting constantly for over 300 damage at level 12 with a Rocksplitter or Greensteel light pick.

Level 12 my toon has over 500hp and crits for 300damage. Can solo any elite.
Can't go wrong, got the saves, the hit points and damage. No brainer Zerg fest.

Jhaeran
07-21-2014, 07:11 AM
For starters, thanks for this build. It's awesome and fun. Also easy to customize. :)
It's still a narrow fit with 14 Int. Heal skill did suffer for me. (imho the least crucial skill of the original setup). You also need to be a bit more conscious about level ups (max. Intim on fighter levels, etc...), but it's entirely possible.


Went this route since we group a lot. Will be 'sub-optimal' but possibly slightly more versatile. Took the 14 int and should be able to
Max:
Perform
UMD
Intimidate
Balance

Get 22 ranks in Disable
Get 19 ranks in Search
Get 10 ranks in Open Lock

Spot is terrible and might switch search/disable since I might rather have a better search - unsure though.

Via going 1 Rog, 2-3 Brd, 4-5 Ftr, 6 Brd, 7-8 Ftr, 9 Rog, 10-14 Brd, 15 Ftr, 16 Brd, 17 Ftr, 18-20 Brd.

3 cross class intim pts, bunch of cross class rogue skills (32 for 22 disable ranks, 14 for 9 Open lock, 31 for 19 search).

Probably a better leveling order available and might re-do as I grow. Only lvl 6 right now and banking 7 - carnifex was doing fine, now going to switch to SB.

cru121
07-21-2014, 08:44 AM
I went with 16 INT, +4 tome. Insightful Reflexes.

Zoda
07-21-2014, 09:32 AM
Now only if there was a single trap in the game which I'd rather disable than running through it...

Jhaeran
07-21-2014, 09:43 AM
Now only if there was a single trap in the game which I'd rather disable than running through it...

Some builds aren't quite as awesome. It reduces resource usage and can add to XP.

Zoda
07-21-2014, 11:11 AM
Some builds aren't quite as awesome. It reduces resource usage and can add to XP.

That's why I carry rez scrolls.

Ancient
07-21-2014, 12:19 PM
That's why I carry rez scrolls.

Other people need to post some good stuff so I can rep comments like this again.

Purkilius
07-21-2014, 12:49 PM
Some builds aren't quite as awesome. It reduces resource usage and can add to XP.

player>build

Nightmanis
07-21-2014, 12:59 PM
player>build

With as much hp as he's got and for how cheap cocoon is, I don't think there's very many traps he won't either save on or just outright power through.

Chimeran1
07-21-2014, 05:06 PM
Went this route since we group a lot. Will be 'sub-optimal' but possibly slightly more versatile. Took the 14 int and should be able to
Max:
Perform
UMD
Intimidate
Balance

Get 22 ranks in Disable
Get 19 ranks in Search
Get 10 ranks in Open Lock

Spot is terrible and might switch search/disable since I might rather have a better search - unsure though.

Via going 1 Rog, 2-3 Brd, 4-5 Ftr, 6 Brd, 7-8 Ftr, 9 Rog, 10-14 Brd, 15 Ftr, 16 Brd, 17 Ftr, 18-20 Brd.

3 cross class intim pts, bunch of cross class rogue skills (32 for 22 disable ranks, 14 for 9 Open lock, 31 for 19 search).

Probably a better leveling order available and might re-do as I grow. Only lvl 6 right now and banking 7 - carnifex was doing fine, now going to switch to SB.

Why not just roll a wizard/rogue?
Won't you need like +40 skill gear?- good luck with that.

Ancient
07-21-2014, 06:02 PM
Why not just roll a wizard/rogue?
Won't you need like +40 skill gear?- good luck with that.

20 skill gear, 5 exceptional. 6 int skills, 4 exceptional int skills, 10 int. 40 from gear is quite possible.

Wizza
07-22-2014, 06:57 AM
That's why I carry rez scrolls.

You don't.

You carry cakes now.

Zoda
07-22-2014, 08:08 AM
You don't.

You carry cakes now.

If I did, you'd not be able to find it out because I don't die and you DO carry them.

Forul
07-28-2014, 09:16 AM
Rolled this build on a neglected alt. It works well without the tomes and past lives. I may post some videos of it.

Zoda
07-29-2014, 06:16 AM
Finally took the time to finish the few missing lives for both heroic and epic completionist, and rolled back to this build right after. Here are my selfbuffed stats:

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p548/Zoda27/ScreenShot00131_zps22d9aedf.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Zoda27/media/ScreenShot00131_zps22d9aedf.jpg.html)

Active buffs: Tenser's, Lasting Elixir, GH, Haste
Gear still needs some work but I'm almost there. If I manage to get my hands on the right +11 CON item and they put +6 tomes back in store I'll hit 74 CON, and that's getting pretty close to DM build's STR score :)


Rolled this build on a neglected alt. It works well without the tomes and past lives. I may post some videos of it.

Yes, the build is doing very well without past lives, even on my test character it was easy to solo just about anything e/e. On the other hand it does benefit a lot from past lives.

Purkilius
07-29-2014, 06:41 AM
Finally took the time to finish the few missing lives for both heroic and epic completionist, and rolled back to this build right after. Here are my selfbuffed stats:

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p548/Zoda27/ScreenShot00131_zps22d9aedf.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Zoda27/media/ScreenShot00131_zps22d9aedf.jpg.html)

Active buffs: Tenser's, Lasting Elixir, GH, Haste
Gear still needs some work but I'm almost there. If I manage to get my hands on the right +11 CON item and they put +6 tomes back in store I'll hit 74 CON, and that's getting pretty close to DM build's STR score :)



Yes, the build is doing very well without past lives, even on my test character it was easy to solo just about anything e/e. On the other hand it does benefit a lot from past lives.

Looks cool :)

What gear are you missing?

Zoda
07-29-2014, 06:58 AM
Looks cool :)

What gear are you missing?

Same that I had last time I posted it, should be on the previous page I think. Planning to change ring to cha 10 of saves 10 and goggles to ee shadowsigh till I get my uber con 11 item, then rerolling gear again heh.

EDIT: oops, thought u asked what I'm wearing. I'm missing a CON 11 ring of saves 10. I'd murder, lie, steal or rape to get one. Or a combination of those.

Zoda
07-29-2014, 07:13 AM
Oh, and to ppl trying to go for trap skills: I tried one epic tr with maxed search, 11 starting INT. With tripple arti past life + completionist + maxed search + 20 gear +6 exceptional skill, +3 good luck and 30 buffed int I had 66 search (GH and focusing chant on too) and wasn't able to even find the boxes in high end e/e content, so I'll just keep carrying my rez scrolls.

Amideus
08-01-2014, 12:00 PM
Oh, and to ppl trying to go for trap skills: I tried one epic tr with maxed search, 11 starting INT. With tripple arti past life + completionist + maxed search + 20 gear +6 exceptional skill, +3 good luck and 30 buffed int I had 66 search (GH and focusing chant on too) and wasn't able to even find the boxes in high end e/e content, so I'll just keep carrying my rez scrolls.

This is what bothers me currently. I understand that EE content is meant to be difficult and challenging but that is A LOT of planning and effort for trap/search skills and you can just be completely screwed out of a quest simply because you don't have a fully dedicated rogue/Arti for traps. I'm all for requiring balanced parties, I'm not for completely crapping on the idea of splash builds and versatility in creation. I tried keeping up trap skills when doing this as my current life and could not find anything after about level 12 with items, though that was mainly because I made some poor skill choices. With population starting to wane on some servers, I think it would be more beneficial to the health of the game to make splashing class levels lightly for the purpose of roles like trapping or healing, as opposed to being the end all be all solo class, which doesn't need to happen even for a power gamer.

Zoda
08-01-2014, 04:47 PM
This is what bothers me currently. I understand that EE content is meant to be difficult and challenging but that is A LOT of planning and effort for trap/search skills and you can just be completely screwed out of a quest simply because you don't have a fully dedicated rogue/Arti for traps. I'm all for requiring balanced parties, I'm not for completely crapping on the idea of splash builds and versatility in creation. I tried keeping up trap skills when doing this as my current life and could not find anything after about level 12 with items, though that was mainly because I made some poor skill choices. With population starting to wane on some servers, I think it would be more beneficial to the health of the game to make splashing class levels lightly for the purpose of roles like trapping or healing, as opposed to being the end all be all solo class, which doesn't need to happen even for a power gamer.

Well, upside is that I still can zerg through any trap :)

Lifespawn
08-01-2014, 07:05 PM
Oh, and to ppl trying to go for trap skills: I tried one epic tr with maxed search, 11 starting INT. With tripple arti past life + completionist + maxed search + 20 gear +6 exceptional skill, +3 good luck and 30 buffed int I had 66 search (GH and focusing chant on too) and wasn't able to even find the boxes in high end e/e content, so I'll just keep carrying my rez scrolls.


guildy of mine has a variant of this started with a bit more int and 2 less con but he hits an 88 search

Zoda
08-01-2014, 07:51 PM
guildy of mine has a variant of this started with a bit more int and 2 less con but he hits an 88 search

I posted my breakdown, feel free to post yours.

EDIT: actually looking back something stinks there. I had Manual with +8 int slotted for traps and my buffed search was 66, should have been more, I'll look into it why...

LOL Manaul doesn't buff search, guess that explains why I was exactly 20 points short.

Zoda
08-02-2014, 11:26 AM
Gave another shot to e/e Breaking the ranks now that I acquired completionist/ecompletionist. Made some mistakes, but still was a minute faster than my previous run. Should be able to get it under 15.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJofSemHSmo

prometheus303
08-04-2014, 10:33 PM
I posted my breakdown, feel free to post yours.

EDIT: actually looking back something stinks there. I had Manual with +8 int slotted for traps and my buffed search was 66, should have been more, I'll look into it why...

LOL Manaul doesn't buff search, guess that explains why I was exactly 20 points short.

First, gotta say, I love this build. I originally rolled this guy to help a friend level this build from 1 without stones. Decided to play around with the rogue skills for bonuses while leveling. Without any real effort I was able to get Search and DD up to what I think are respectable levels. I did start with a 15 INT and dropped my CON to 18. I don't have Arti past lives, or any for that matter.

At 28 I can reach:

Search: 82 (GH, Focusing Chant and Ship Buffs)
DD: 91 (GH, Focusing Chant, Ship Buffs, +5 Tools)
OL: 69 (Same buffs, but only 8 ranks during leveling)

I did use +4 Skill Tomes for both and have used a +5 INT Tome. I also have the Upgraded Manual of Stealthy Pilfering, Ventilated Bracers, +10 INT Item and +20 Search Item.

If you're willing to sacrifice a little DPS, you can easily get this build to do EE traps. I definitely don't proclaim to know which traps are the hardest, but I do not have an issue in EE What Goes Up, VON5, or any other quest I've run (although I always skip the traps in Cabal).

Just thought I'd throw this out since some where asking if it could be done. Again...can't begin to say just how awesome this build is!

I, too, have been able to solo EE What Goes Up (although I run in Crusader...F*#& Flesh to Stone!) running this variation without any problems. So, its still a viable alternative.

Zoda
08-05-2014, 03:48 AM
First, gotta say, I love this build. I originally rolled this guy to help a friend level this build from 1 without stones. Decided to play around with the rogue skills for bonuses while leveling. Without any real effort I was able to get Search and DD up to what I think are respectable levels. I did start with a 15 INT and dropped my CON to 18. I don't have Arti past lives, or any for that matter.

At 28 I can reach:

Search: 82 (GH, Focusing Chant and Ship Buffs)
DD: 91 (GH, Focusing Chant, Ship Buffs, +5 Tools)
OL: 69 (Same buffs, but only 8 ranks during leveling)

I did use +4 Skill Tomes for both and have used a +5 INT Tome. I also have the Upgraded Manual of Stealthy Pilfering, Ventilated Bracers, +10 INT Item and +20 Search Item.

If you're willing to sacrifice a little DPS, you can easily get this build to do EE traps. I definitely don't proclaim to know which traps are the hardest, but I do not have an issue in EE What Goes Up, VON5, or any other quest I've run (although I always skip the traps in Cabal).

Just thought I'd throw this out since some where asking if it could be done. Again...can't begin to say just how awesome this build is!

I, too, have been able to solo EE What Goes Up (although I run in Crusader...F*#& Flesh to Stone!) running this variation without any problems. So, its still a viable alternative.

I never cared about traps, not even when I had rog icons lol (and I've played various acrobat builds in endgame 4 times heh). Then friend told me to "just get manual for traps" and I never actually checked if it has search (until I checked lol). Now that I know that it does not and I equipped a serach item, I have no problem doing any trap in the game either. I still consider it an absolutely useless thing that my toon can do now :D

Running Crusader just to counter flesh to stone is a bit weird to me. Save should only fail on 1 and LD has Unstoppable, and there is also Harper Pin (if you watch my WGU video you can see me getting rid of flesh to stone every time I roll a 1). I honestly never been CC'd by anything but knockdowns on this build.

Wizza
08-06-2014, 03:14 AM
Running Crusader just to counter flesh to stone is a bit weird to me. Save should only fail on 1 and LD has Unstoppable, and there is also Harper Pin (if you watch my WGU video you can see me getting rid of flesh to stone every time I roll a 1). I honestly never been CC'd by anything but knockdowns on this build.

Splash 18 Sorcerer to get KD Immunity.

Nightmanis
08-06-2014, 06:11 AM
Splash 18 Sorcerer to get KD Immunity.

12 rogue. Much more fun. Then you at least get improved evasion.

Amideus
08-06-2014, 01:51 PM
So it seems this build is about to get nerfed. They are planning to remove the ability to benefit from shield mastery feats while swashbuckling with Skirmisher because it is "a bug". Funny how they still haven't fixed the massive druid benefiting from every weapon feat bug. No one else uses shield mastery feats anymore. This is the one build that you could actually play as a good endgame tank while not being dedicated to nothing but tanking, and they want to take away the benefits of using a shield. What a crock.

Zoda
08-06-2014, 02:09 PM
So it seems this build is about to get nerfed. They are planning to remove the ability to benefit from shield mastery feats while swashbuckling with Skirmisher because it is "a bug". Funny how they still haven't fixed the massive druid benefiting from every weapon feat bug. No one else uses shield mastery feats anymore. This is the one build that you could actually play as a good endgame tank while not being dedicated to nothing but tanking, and they want to take away the benefits of using a shield. What a crock.

Yea... I don't know if my posts had anything to do with this nerf (or with the Magic Backlash change), but I'll think twice before I post my build stuff in the future. And angry archers still do 928374 damge with one shot, and magic missile is still a better spell than meteor swarm :). Devs gotta have priorities too I guess.

I'm just sad that I probably won't find a working dwarf build again for who knows how long.

Amideus
08-06-2014, 02:57 PM
Yea... I don't know if my posts had anything to do with this nerf (or with the Magic Backlash change), but I'll think twice before I post my build stuff in the future. And angry archers still do 928374 damge with one shot, and magic missile is still a better spell than meteor swarm :). Devs gotta have priorities too I guess.

I'm just sad that I probably won't find a working dwarf build again for who knows how long.

I'm fighting tooth and nail in the forums for them to NOT go through with this change. And I would suggest to anyone that loves melee builds and swashbuckling as much as me to do the same. If the giant masses of whining ranged players that run EE can win out against melee by getting Blitz to benefit ranged when it clearly says MELEE in the freaking description, we can get shield bonuses for swashbuckling dammit!

Nightmanis
08-06-2014, 03:21 PM
Yea... I don't know if my posts had anything to do with this nerf (or with the Magic Backlash change), but I'll think twice before I post my build stuff in the future. And angry archers still do 928374 damge with one shot, and magic missile is still a better spell than meteor swarm :). Devs gotta have priorities too I guess.

I'm just sad that I probably won't find a working dwarf build again for who knows how long.

Yes I understand that it's doublestrike and PRR, but on the bright side of things now you gain back 2 feats. It won't break the build, but it won't be an outright powerhouse.

What needs to be done is instead of making it so you can't take SWF with the Shield feats is actually look at what was being complained about.

Cetus posted that the shield feats are working with SWF when wielding an orb.

Fix that, remove the problem.

No need to nerf bards.

Now to the Dev diaries to fight to make sure this is explicitly known and repeated.

Zoda
08-06-2014, 03:55 PM
Yes I understand that it's doublestrike and PRR, but on the bright side of things now you gain back 2 feats. It won't break the build, but it won't be an outright powerhouse.

What needs to be done is instead of making it so you can't take SWF with the Shield feats is actually look at what was being complained about.

Cetus posted that the shield feats are working with SWF when wielding an orb.

Fix that, remove the problem.

No need to nerf bards.

Now to the Dev diaries to fight to make sure this is explicitly known and repeated.

I play powerhouse stuff, so it's gonna be another reroll for me heh, but it's cool, can never play a build for more than few months without getting bored with it. Just hoping that they make melee power changes to racial trees so I won't be forced into BF/human/PDK/helf for the damage boost again now that they nerf my dworf.

I'll leave complaining to devs to you guys, hope you get through with it lol

nivarch
08-06-2014, 04:48 PM
I play powerhouse stuff, so it's gonna be another reroll for me heh, but it's cool, can never play a build for more than few months without getting bored with it. Just hoping that they make melee power changes to racial trees so I won't be forced into BF/human/PDK/helf for the damage boost again now that they nerf my dworf.

I'll leave complaining to devs to you guys, hope you get through with it lol

I don't understand how losing 2 shield mastery feats impact you so much?
You are losing 5 PRR and 8% doublestrike.

5 PRR on that build is not huge.
So it's basically a loss of 8% doublestrike, so about 5-6% DPS drop. It's not minor, but it's not going to break the build either.

You will also get 2 feats open. The options will not cover the loss but maybe able to compensate somehow, with either more survivability or more DPS.
By taking toughness earlier, you can take epic toughness without needing to sacrifice an ED feat slot.

The ED feat slot can then be used to take something such as elusive target, PSWF or Holy Strike.
The second feat slot could for example be for quick draw to reduce the wasted time using boosts (and this is a pretty big DPS increase on boss fights; and a nice quality of life feat).

Amideus
08-06-2014, 05:30 PM
I don't understand how losing 2 shield mastery feats impact you so much?
You are losing 5 PRR and 8% doublestrike.

5 PRR on that build is not huge.
So it's basically a loss of 8% doublestrike, so about 5-6% DPS drop. It's not minor, but it's not going to break the build either.

You will also get 2 feats open. The options will not cover the loss but maybe able to compensate somehow, with either more survivability or more DPS.
By taking toughness earlier, you can take epic toughness without needing to sacrifice an ED feat slot.

The ED feat slot can then be used to take something such as elusive target, PSWF or Holy Strike.
The second feat slot could for example be for quick draw to reduce the wasted time using boosts (and this is a pretty big DPS increase on boss fights; and a nice quality of life feat).

It's not a loss of only 5 PRR and 8% Doublestrike, it's 20 PRR and 15% doublestrike because you lose the ability to twist in Legendary Shield Mastery. That ED ability requires you have have both shield mastery feats to take ranks in it.

Zoda
08-06-2014, 05:48 PM
It's not a loss of only 5 PRR and 8% Doublestrike, it's 20 PRR and 15% doublestrike because you lose the ability to twist in Legendary Shield Mastery. That ED ability requires you have have both shield mastery feats to take ranks in it.

That.

Also I don't have eThoughness anymore, I dropped it for completionist after I got it.

I have a pretty cool build layout after this nerf hits, but I need the ED/pally changes to go live before I can do it, so I'll miss the first round of necro 4 stuff it seems :/

Klixen
08-07-2014, 01:41 AM
It's not a loss of only 5 PRR and 8% Doublestrike, it's 20 PRR and 15% doublestrike because you lose the ability to twist in Legendary Shield Mastery. That ED ability requires you have have both shield mastery feats to take ranks in it.

Are you certain? I have twisted in ESM whilst not having the SM feats. It is possible as long as you have the feats on the life you bought the ranks in ESM. Haven't tested if the benefits actually apply though.

Zoda
08-07-2014, 07:12 AM
Are you certain? I have twisted in ESM whilst not having the SM feats. It is possible as long as you have the feats on the life you bought the ranks in ESM. Haven't tested if the benefits actually apply though.

That might work based on how piercing spellcraft and precise spellcasting works, not sure if it'll give the bonuses. Still 8% doublestrike loss is pretty big, and I don't really care about the 2 feats I'll get... What can I pick there? Like extend or some other nonsense.

Chimeran1
08-07-2014, 03:37 PM
I play powerhouse stuff, so it's gonna be another reroll for me heh, but it's cool, can never play a build for more than few months without getting bored with it. Just hoping that they make melee power changes to racial trees so I won't be forced into BF/human/PDK/helf for the damage boost again now that they nerf my dworf.

I'll leave complaining to devs to you guys, hope you get through with it lol

Problem was your build was too good.
I'd be on 1800hp at level 20, crit spamming for 300-400 in no destiny path.
Top kills
Never die
Rez, d door .... Hey I don't need you in my group but I like to chat on the mike kinda deal.
Don't know how many times I completed quests with a bunch of soul stones in my bag....
Others copied the build
People that had **** builds or epic SOS that no longer had top kill scores complained.
Nerf....
Destroyed a great build and the only time I ever played a dwarf.
Sadly I TR'ed into a Bladeforge exploiter.

Thanks for the build, it was a lot of fun.

Takllin
08-07-2014, 03:41 PM
Problem was your build was too good.
I'd be on 1800hp at level 20, crit spamming for 300-400 in no destiny path.
Top kills
Never die
Rez, d door .... Hey I don't need you in my group but I like to chat on the mike kinda deal.
Don't know how many times I completed quests with a bunch of soul stones in my bag....
Others copied the build
People that had **** builds or epic SOS that no longer had top kill scores complained.
Nerf....
Destroyed a great build and the only time I ever played a dwarf.
Sadly I TR'ed into a Bladeforge exploiter.

Thanks for the build, it was a lot of fun.

This build is far from destroyed, and no one complained/whined about it either.

Still a great build, 13% DS and 20 PRR doesn't make or break a build, if it did, then that build isn't a good one.

Zoda
08-07-2014, 04:18 PM
Hey I don't need you in my group but I like to chat on the mike kinda deal.


:)


This build is far from destroyed, and no one complained/whined about it either.

Still a great build, 13% DS and 20 PRR doesn't make or break a build, if it did, then that build isn't a good one.

Yeah build will be good still.

But you know me, I already played this build longer than I usually keep a build :D

Rull
08-07-2014, 05:29 PM
This build is far from destroyed, and no one complained/whined about it either.

Still a great build, 13% DS and 20 PRR doesn't make or break a build, if it did, then that build isn't a good one.

I'm dropping 4 fighter levels, the two shield mastery feats and 26 points in the stalwart line for 4 more bard levels, 3 points in spellsinger and 23 (24 total) in warchanter.

Basically a pretty regular 16/2/2 with evasion + fighter feats for cleave, but still a dwarf with con for damage since you don't have divine might anyway.
Still prefer that over 16/3/1 fvs based builds since they are so squishy.

Khalesh
08-08-2014, 05:50 AM
Just seen some of your vids, great work, great build!

Quick question - How do you get your timers on actions boosts etc to display the number of seconds left before you can reuse the boost or action?

Is this a mod or a UI setting that can easily be changed?

Thanks

Nightmanis
08-08-2014, 03:24 PM
Just seen some of your vids, great work, great build!

Quick question - How do you get your timers on actions boosts etc to display the number of seconds left before you can reuse the boost or action?

Is this a mod or a UI setting that can easily be changed?

Thanks

UI settings, 4th or 5th option down from the top.

Chimeran1
08-09-2014, 06:46 PM
:)



Yeah build will be good still.

But you know me, I already played this build longer than I usually keep a build :D

Appreciated.
I will keep watching this space. :)

Zoda
08-22-2014, 09:35 PM
Copied this build over to lama and it works just fine. You can still use the shield mastery feats with swf feats, the only nerf is the -50% ability mod to damage on SWF, which hits every swf user. On the bright side, you can get your CON score up to 80 now, and there are obviously major gear upgrades. That said with the glancing blow changes, I will want to go for either thf or SWF with dwarven waraxe, waiting for the Vanguard tree before I can say something certain, but paladin definitely looks appealing (handwraps using pally 15/monk 5 or 14/6 is one of the things I'm eyeing other than something with glancing blows).

Amideus
08-25-2014, 10:35 AM
Copied this build over to lama and it works just fine. You can still use the shield mastery feats with swf feats, the only nerf is the -50% ability mod to damage on SWF, which hits every swf user. On the bright side, you can get your CON score up to 80 now, and there are obviously major gear upgrades. That said with the glancing blow changes, I will want to go for either thf or SWF with dwarven waraxe, waiting for the Vanguard tree before I can say something certain, but paladin definitely looks appealing (handwraps using pally 15/monk 5 or 14/6 is one of the things I'm eyeing other than something with glancing blows).

It's also worth noting that you gain 20 melee power for that 50% stat loss. That's essentially 20% more damage. This hurts the earlier levels but benefits the later points when you will be hitting harder with 20% more damage flat than 50% more ability score(potentially, still have to do the math).

ArcaneArcher52689
08-25-2014, 12:48 PM
Copied this build over to lama and it works just fine. You can still use the shield mastery feats with swf feats, the only nerf is the -50% ability mod to damage on SWF, which hits every swf user. On the bright side, you can get your CON score up to 80 now, and there are obviously major gear upgrades. That said with the glancing blow changes, I will want to go for either thf or SWF with dwarven waraxe, waiting for the Vanguard tree before I can say something certain, but paladin definitely looks appealing (handwraps using pally 15/monk 5 or 14/6 is one of the things I'm eyeing other than something with glancing blows).

Just as a heads up, Holy sword wasn't working on handwraps when i tested it. You got the +2 enh bonus and the +1[W], but not the 1 Crit range/multiplier

Zoda
08-25-2014, 10:18 PM
Just as a heads up, Holy sword wasn't working on handwraps when i tested it. You got the +2 enh bonus and the +1[W], but not the 1 Crit range/multiplier

Haha, I really should have expected that shouldn't I? :D
Good old handwraps.

Jhaeran
08-26-2014, 12:30 AM
Comparative NON blitz damage?

How hard is everyone else hitting with their toon? Fleshy vs non, crit vs non crit? What is your Con at?

I'm demolishing stuff on an under-optimized character - lvl 28, usually off destiny/new destiny, normal hits 100-140 with crits from 300-400 that almost seem to happen more often than non-crits. In LD everything is higher and in Blitz its obviously much higher still. 2nd life, I only have low-mid 50's for CON and only using a Tier 1 Thunder-forged hand-axe. I sacrificed a bit to get my skills up, but don't have the gear/setup for 70+ CON.

What is an expected 'Average' or a 'good' range? It's pretty powerful as is - what are other people seeing on their 'normal' builds?

Chimeran1
09-01-2014, 01:23 AM
Comparative NON blitz damage?

How hard is everyone else hitting with their toon? Fleshy vs non, crit vs non crit? What is your Con at?

I'm demolishing stuff on an under-optimized character - lvl 28, usually off destiny/new destiny, normal hits 100-140 with crits from 300-400 that almost seem to happen more often than non-crits. In LD everything is higher and in Blitz its obviously much higher still. 2nd life, I only have low-mid 50's for CON and only using a Tier 1 Thunder-forged hand-axe. I sacrificed a bit to get my skills up, but don't have the gear/setup for 70+ CON.

What is an expected 'Average' or a 'good' range? It's pretty powerful as is - what are other people seeing on their 'normal' builds?

Currently as a level 24 Bladeforged 6bard/12fighter/2rogue in no epic destiny and maxed Charisma and just ship buffs my normal crit in EE is 500-600 and helpless mobs 700-1200.
I do have +20% racial damage, +2 racial seeker and only a x3 multiplier weapon ATM

To me your damage sounds about right, a lot of my damage is gear based.
You could easily get 600-700 standard crits with some gear.

* The great thing with swashbuckler is the rate of attack ( animations are fast ) and the rate of crits and double strike are off the charts. ( fighter haste boosted.. Holy $hit ) :)
Even a lower base crit still creates a wrecking ball of mob destruction

I hope at your level you are using TF light pick with dragons edge, mortal fear and a meteoric ruby :)
Farm out an adamantine cloak of the wolf or twisting shade bracers.

Bottom line, get as much con stat, seeker, exceptional seeker, deadly ring of ***, sort that out and your dps will spike hard.

Also, build for dps if that's what you want, less bard, more fighter = more feats
Improved shield bash gives you auto bash attacks off your buckler.

cru121
09-01-2014, 02:34 AM
Comparative NON blitz damage?

How hard is everyone else hitting with their toon? Fleshy vs non, crit vs non crit? What is your Con at?

I'm demolishing stuff on an under-optimized character - lvl 28, usually off destiny/new destiny, normal hits 100-140 with crits from 300-400 that almost seem to happen more often than non-crits. In LD everything is higher and in Blitz its obviously much higher still. 2nd life, I only have low-mid 50's for CON and only using a Tier 1 Thunder-forged hand-axe. I sacrificed a bit to get my skills up, but don't have the gear/setup for 70+ CON.

What is an expected 'Average' or a 'good' range? It's pretty powerful as is - what are other people seeing on their 'normal' builds?

I have a lvl 25 dude using T1 light pick, hitting for ~90 (4d4+80 in the inventory > details), critting for ~400. Casual player, con in the 50s, no overwhelming crit, seeker 8, deadly 8, lot of heroic gear still on.


It's also worth noting that you gain 20 melee power for that 50% stat loss. That's essentially 20% more damage. This hurts the earlier levels but benefits the later points when you will be hitting harder with 20% more damage flat than 50% more ability score(potentially, still have to do the math).
Second round of U23 Lama now nerfs SWF even more to +50% ability, +10 melee power. Sounds like a DPS loss in my case.
Live: avg damage 90, 44 coming from 54 con.
Lam: ( 90 minus 11 from con ) x 1.1 mp = 86.9 => 3.4% dps loss


Improved shield bash gives you auto bash attacks off your buckler.
Shield bash is somewhat less useful for this build because TYWA does not apply to shields. In particular, if you're using the first version of the build without +6 tomes which dumped strength.

BoBoDaClown
09-02-2014, 12:58 AM
I'm not keeping track of things - have SWF feats and shield mastery feats been changed on lammania?

cru121
09-02-2014, 01:20 AM
I'm not keeping track of things - have SWF feats and shield mastery feats been changed on lammania?

Greater Single Weapon Fighting: Your Single-Weapon Fighting bonus is increased to a +30% Combat Style bonus to attack speed and an additional +4 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power, for a total of +10 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power. You now apply 50% more of your appropriate ability score to your damage.

Improved Shield Mastery: You are exceptionally skilled with the use of a shield, and your physical resistance is increased by 5 when using a buckler or small shield, 10 when using a large shield, or 15 when using a tower shield. Your doublestrike chance while using a shield is increased by 8%. Your Combat Style bonus to Melee Power is increased by +5 to +10.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-%28Last-Updated-8-28-14%29

BoBoDaClown
09-02-2014, 04:42 AM
Thanks Cru.

So you'll still be able to take the SWF and the Shield Mastery feats - I thought people were talking about some kind of lock out?

Cheers

ZirePhoenix
09-10-2014, 01:43 PM
In case anyone is curious, this build is strong enough that even as a 28 pt build first life I'm not having any problems going through quests at all. Currently at level 14 and managed to solo some of the at level Elite content.

17 str, 20 con to start.

I don't have access to any tomes nor past lives, but this build works just fine. I do have access to a crafter with 100+ crafting though, but the only "essential" item is just a Bodyfeeder weapon. That alone with swashbuckling gives so much self sustain it just works really well.

unbongwah
09-10-2014, 02:17 PM
With U23 dropping the STR pre-req on Overwhelming Critical, non-STR builds like this become a lot easier to pull off if you're resource-challenged. I definitely look forward to spamming way more DEX builds from now on! :cool:

Zoda
09-11-2014, 07:08 AM
U23 is the TR-to-paladin update, this build won't compete with those. If you want a CON build, just do it as pure CON/INT dwarf and use know the angles instead of DM.

Zoda
09-14-2014, 01:10 AM
Here are the finalized stats for my build: (ship buffs, haste, tenser, scream, elixir, gh on only, nothing else)

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p548/Zoda27/ScreenShot00139_zpsa0ce2f78.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Zoda27/media/ScreenShot00139_zpsa0ce2f78.jpg.html)

I think this is as good as it can get. Gonna be bitter when pure paladins outdo this build (even more so that I'll be one of them). Maybe it'll be time to take another extended break from the game until they make barbs OP with u24, would be fun to play my originial class again :)

Nightmanis
09-14-2014, 11:48 AM
Here are the finalized stats for my build: (ship buffs, haste, tenser, scream, elixir, gh on only, nothing else)

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p548/Zoda27/ScreenShot00139_zpsa0ce2f78.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Zoda27/media/ScreenShot00139_zpsa0ce2f78.jpg.html)

I think this is as good as it can get. Gonna be bitter when pure paladins outdo this build (even more so that I'll be one of them). Maybe it'll be time to take another extended break from the game until they make barbs OP with u24, would be fun to play my originial class again :)

S&B Full con Paladin Vanguard.

That would be interesting.

Zoda
09-14-2014, 01:37 PM
S&B Full con Paladin Vanguard.

That would be interesting.

Interesting is not the word I'd use to describe melees after the update goes live.

Nightmanis
09-14-2014, 03:05 PM
Interesting is not the word I'd use to describe melees after the update goes live.

Hopelessly overpowered in some aspects while negating the potential for any other build to succeed?

Zoda
09-15-2014, 07:49 PM
S&B Full con Paladin Vanguard.

That would be interesting.

You can't get CON to damage with shields, and that'd be a huge dps loss. Also even as human I'd have to drop completionist and one crucial dps feat (probably still going vanguard though).

If you want max CON you can just use an greataxe and go INT second for know the angles.


Hopelessly overpowered in some aspects while negating the potential for any other build to succeed?

Cakewalking stupid proof pure paladins.

Retrodark
09-17-2014, 05:48 PM
Is *your* gear...






Sure, here is my current layout:

Helm: Dragon Masque
Armor: Shadow Dragonhide Armor (shadow killer upgrade)
Neck: Necklace of Mystic Eidolons
Boots: e/e Goarskin Boots (+8 dex)
Bracers: Convalescent Bracer of Superior Parrying
Belt: Health +10 Belt of Seeker +10
Trinket: Litany of the Dead
Ring1: Seal of House Avithoul
Ring2: Ring of Deceit
Cloak: GS hp (elemenal mastery aka. land and sky2)
Goggles: Charismatic +9 Goggles of Resistance +10 (placeholder, probably gonna replace GS on this slot and use Cloak of the Wolf in my current GS's place, Shadowsight is not a bad alternative)

Shield: Epic Swashbuckler
.

First of all, thank you for introducing this nice build. I am currently having fun with it on my main.

I am curious about the convalescent bracers with Sup. parry. Are those are 20% and are you using the mitts (note...I do not see gloves slot in this list although you mentioned them in another post). Also the superior parrying part of the bracers is redundant with epic swashbuckler.

I am using the following on mine (mostly the same, with a few exceptions).
Helm: Dragon Masque
Armor: Shadow Dragonhide Armor
Neck: Necklace of Mystic Eidolons
Boots: T2 Halycon boots
Bracers: Dumathoin's Bracers
Belt: Health +10 Belt of Seeker +10
Gloves: Iron Mitts
Trinket: Manual of Stealthy Pilfering (I will never get the old litany-maybe the new one?)
Ring1: Wisdom +10 / Resist +10
Ring2: Ring of Deceit
Cloak: Adam. of the Wolf
Goggles: GS hp/land and sky

Main hand: TF handaxe w/ meteoric augment
Shield: Epic Swashbuckler

Zoda
09-18-2014, 03:35 AM
Is *your* gear...



First of all, thank you for introducing this nice build. I am currently having fun with it on my main.

I am curious about the convalescent bracers with Sup. parry. Are those are 20% and are you using the mitts (note...I do not see gloves slot in this list although you mentioned them in another post). Also the superior parrying part of the bracers is redundant with epic swashbuckler.

I am using the following on mine (mostly the same, with a few exceptions).
Helm: Dragon Masque
Armor: Shadow Dragonhide Armor
Neck: Necklace of Mystic Eidolons
Boots: T2 Halycon boots
Bracers: Dumathoin's Bracers
Belt: Health +10 Belt of Seeker +10
Gloves: Iron Mitts
Trinket: Manual of Stealthy Pilfering (I will never get the old litany-maybe the new one?)
Ring1: Wisdom +10 / Resist +10
Ring2: Ring of Deceit
Cloak: Adam. of the Wolf
Goggles: GS hp/land and sky

Main hand: TF handaxe w/ meteoric augment
Shield: Epic Swashbuckler

I changed ring of deceit to healamp slotted TOD ring and bracer to Dumathion and slotted +15 perform augment, rest is the same. Could replace the goggles with Shadowsight and slot CHA and Resistance, but I don't really play lately, I think the only thing I did last month in DDO is that screenshot (to hit would be nice, would drop 2 reflex and 2 fort, but I'm not lacking on that department).

EliahuTheMighty
09-19-2014, 11:50 AM
Thanks for the build, when I first tried it, it was the most powerful melee I'd ever played (then tried the druid/ranger wolf). Used it as the basis for all three of my PDK lives. Even with differed stats and gimping it a few times, it still worked out really well to use the concepts you laid down.
I Don't run at 28 yet since I'm working EPLs still, so keep that in mind for below. Some thoughts/questions:

I also will be slotting HAmp in a ToD ring (As soon as I get another t2 shard. Been using Levik's Bracers for 20 amp for over 2 years lol). Does the hamp become your only value in that slot, or does your setup have a stat missing somewhere which you fill with whatever TOD ring?

For anyone who has a TOD ring they can slot hamp on and wants that parrying bonus, you can get it in bracers slot with ES turn in, druid I think. I've been using Tiller which gives me the 10 dodge (I'm always over-dodged with a 27 cap), but didn't notice that swashbuckler has parrying AND 6% dblstrike. Gonna make one next time cove's around. And they're adding max lvl 24 for cove gear next, so it should look even better.

Have you noticed that Primal Scream requires you to be out of defender stance when it applies? Or am I wrong about noticing that?

In Sentinel, what was your point allotment? I ran EE DD last night as tank on fatty, and my layout was T3 LSM, t2 Brace (think it brought my saves up to 59 fort, and maybe 56 reflex? Don't think I thought to look when fully buffed), 20% hp, t3 ward against evil for extra dps aggroing, and Undying vanguard, and +3 con. Would you recommend dropping brace for +2 con? and possibly Vanguard? Ward also might be drop-able, to pick up resurrect for utility, though only useful in raids and shouldn't need to do that job.

EDIT: Stalwart points shown in Breaking Ice vid.

I tried out the pure pally layout on lama. Even with 70-100 MRR I ended up dying in EE Outbreak with no evasion. Granted, I have a tendency to jump into a mass of mobs and start swinging, and I think my blitz didn't proc to build the one or two times I tried in there. But It didn't seem as nice as this sort of layout.

For anyone looking at how to drop the cocoon route: If going dwarf, I think it's gotta stay if you're going to EE tank. Even with 3x Pally, 20% gear, 30% gear, twisted 10% from EA, and 10% new shipbuff, 10% legacy shipbuff (if it stacks. Didn't check), I relied on cocooning consistently. And that was in addition to gold seal Sov elixirs. (Don't think I had a tank-healer-only on me though).
Zoda, Any idea of gear or a way to slot 10%hamp on gear somewhere? Or not until/if they put hamp back on lootgen and maybe cannith crafting?

EDIT: oops, missed that you stated destiny feats in OP.

Thanks!

tibi6893
09-28-2014, 12:25 PM
Some1 can help me, please?
I would like to start the game, and roll a character like this but confused, played like 2 or 3 year ago.
I have acess to 32pt only - no TP for TR my melees, and no tomes, max +2 but better count without tomes right now.
Is it viable now?
If yes, can some1 breakdown this build for me, with skills,feats and all important stuff in order, and when to take class levels, etc etc?

Thanks!

krauron
09-28-2014, 05:37 PM
hi, what ability score yuo raise while leveling (str, cost, dex,or int)

drowrogue
09-28-2014, 07:24 PM
hi, what ability score yuo raise while leveling (str, cost, dex,or int)

con

cru121
09-29-2014, 02:06 AM
Any idea of gear or a way to slot 10%hamp on gear somewhere?

I'm using Dragontouched Armor for 10% / 20% heal amp / radiance guard. Unfortunately, I've gone for the light armor option and the low max dex nerfs my dodge quite hard (~22ish iirc).

unbongwah
09-29-2014, 09:08 AM
Have you noticed that Primal Scream requires you to be out of defender stance when it applies? Or am I wrong about noticing that?
Rage-type effects don't apply while in defensive stance; this includes the Rage spell and Primal Scream. You used to be able to trick the game by activating Rage / PS while out of stance, then switching on stance; but I think enabling stance now disables those effects, IIRC.

I have acess to 32pt only - no TP for TR my melees, and no tomes, max +2 but better count without tomes right now.
Is it viable now?
FYI, U23 is going live today; the official release notes haven't been posted yet, but you can still read the Lama notes (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-%28Last-Updated-8-21-14%29). There are some fairly major changes afoot: new Vanguard PrE (S&B tree for ftrs & pallies); major changes to pallies to make them more powerful (and a little less feat-starved); and the addition of MRR which will offer scaling protection to magical / elemental dmg, similar to how PRR protects against physical dmg (which is also being revised).

I haven't grokked all the changes yet: I think they're an overall improvement for S&B ftr / Swashbucklers; but they're an even bigger improvement to conventional S&B builds.

tibi6893
09-29-2014, 10:27 AM
FYI, U23 is going live today; the official release notes haven't been posted yet, but you can still read the Lama notes (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-%28Last-Updated-8-21-14%29). There are some fairly major changes afoot: new Vanguard PrE (S&B tree for ftrs & pallies); major changes to pallies to make them more powerful (and a little less feat-starved); and the addition of MRR which will offer scaling protection to magical / elemental dmg, similar to how PRR protects against physical dmg (which is also being revised).

I haven't grokked all the changes yet: I think they're an overall improvement for S&B ftr / Swashbucklers; but they're an even bigger improvement to conventional S&B builds.
just rolled 1 gimp with a friend for fun, i think its gonna work - got a lessert heart if i have to change stuffs around.
My other melee toons not really tanky characters and i cant gear them up right now - thats why i wanted a new character, and re-learn the game while leveling :)

Takllin
09-29-2014, 10:49 AM
Rage-type effects don't apply while in defensive stance; this includes the Rage spell and Primal Scream. You used to be able to trick the game by activating Rage / PS while out of stance, then switching on stance; but I think enabling stance now disables those effects, IIRC.


You can still do this, unless it was stealth fixed today. Been doing it for a while.

Zoda
09-29-2014, 11:54 AM
Rage-type effects don't apply while in defensive stance; this includes the Rage spell and Primal Scream. You used to be able to trick the game by activating Rage / PS while out of stance, then switching on stance; but I think enabling stance now disables those effects, IIRC.


It never worked with anything other than PS, and with PS it still worked before today's update. Not sure if it still works, but my guess is yes, otherwise we would see a proud line in the release notes saying that we fixed a bug that was only in game for like 2 years.

EliahuTheMighty
10-02-2014, 07:52 PM
Yes, PS before stance still works.

Had to level this past life in Primal, which doesn't mesh with defender stance so well. Adrenaline has no effect while stanced. And I'm pretty sure that stopping the attack sequence to activate adrenalines and epic moment totaled less DPS that if I had just kept swinging.

This setup is still super powerful. I've been the saving grace in Vol raids most times, took Resurrection in US + Intercession ward goggles has been only reason we could recover from wipes a couple of times. 2.1-2.3k hp in full tank setup has been great. But 18 AP in racial tree means that it's hard to spend the AP in Vanguard to get shield stun while keeping high DC for EEs.

Eventually I'll TR into some pally setup to try that out. But this setup works better for me farming ePLs.

BoBoDaClown
10-03-2014, 05:59 AM
A weapon question:

What do people use from 20-24, before Thunderforged, while keep 'Throw your weight around'?

Greensteel still,
A named item?

Idea please.

Cheers

cru121
10-03-2014, 06:03 AM
I was using +5 Holy Light Pick of Deception, Red slot: Devotion, ML16. Can be also recrafted as Holy Burst, ML20 (2W), but I was so far too lazy. Perhaps if I do another ETR...

Kwyjibo
10-03-2014, 07:59 AM
A weapon question:

What do people use from 20-24, before Thunderforged, while keep 'Throw your weight around'?

Greensteel still,
A named item?

Idea please.

Cheers
On the one build I that I left as a parody build, I used GS until 26 and then switched to TF (there were several TR lives involved here). My current TR project uses a parody as my TR base, 10 Current TR Class/8Bard/2Rog and am using GS all the way thru 28.

If you have the ingredients from the ES challenges, I managed a life stealing weapon that I use as well.

Steel_Kosta
10-03-2014, 09:01 AM
A weapon question:

What do people use from 20-24, before Thunderforged, while keep 'Throw your weight around'?

Greensteel still,
A named item?

Idea please.

Cheers

I used a lot a 2(1d6) alchemical cold iron hand axe minlevel 13 and a 2(1d6) alchemical adamantine light mace I got in previous life at house cannith ,
also I crafted a silver hand axe with holy burst for meridia which worked really nice even on epics with werewolves and vampires in e-orchard
very useful and easy to craft il an h-axe +1 for magic attack , ghost touch , of Greater incorporeal bane , a blast with undead in low lvls .
At the moment in epics I still use crafted axes since Tforged is in progress .
All my crafted weapons are slotted for devotion or sonic power , and as long as you can craft em to get the 2(1d6) damage , the output is very nice .
At low lvls I used often the melee alacrity suffix for more attack speed .
Since u get a btc +2 stat tome with favor , the best use of it is to Exchange it for purified eberron dshards in crafting hall and use em to build powerful axes , like a +5 holy burst of maiming for big crits .

Have fun

K.

Chimeran1
10-03-2014, 02:45 PM
A weapon question:

What do people use from 20-24, before Thunderforged, while keep 'Throw your weight around'?

Greensteel still,
A named item?

Idea please.

Cheers

Balizarde lvl23 Rapier. Upgraded to tier 4 and using the raid gem for the damage bonus.
I've tested many weapons, and this one with its crit range, red meteoric ruby nothing is as good for a swashbuckler.
This weapon is a serious contender for highest dps when your build is done right. I noticed very little improvement in damage when switching to Thunderforged.

Also using this rapier saves a feat as it is already keened.
Now that LD has been utterly nerfed , this rapier is the way to go.
Match it with the new gear from Epic orchard, a level in FvS for the divine might. ( 5-6 bard, 12 fighter, 2FvS) and I have become a killing machine. ( Also, swash out dps Paladin, ...... I am going back to my Swash build next life )

Chimeran1
10-03-2014, 03:02 PM
U23 is the TR-to-paladin update, this build won't compete with those. If you want a CON build, just do it as pure CON/INT dwarf and use know the angles instead of DM.

Maybe, but i still feel strength/divine might Swashbuckler dps is bigger than Paladin.
Example.

I TR'ed from my Bladeforged swashbuckler 6/12fighter/2 rogue into Paladin 15/5fighter
I will say this, now that LD is borked, Swashbuckler dps if built right will out dps Paladin. ( As dps Paladin I went SWF + orb to get the shield feat stacking buffs and legendary shield twist)
The numbers rolling off were the same as Swashbuckler except swashbucklers crits were way more often.
I seriously noticed the lack of crits and this was even with using Balizarde for testing.

I will take my spam 12 crit in a row swash over my 3 crit Paladin any day.
Nothing beats Swashbuckler tier 5 feats for dps, kensai = meh waste of time, LD = meh waste of time unless you are ranged. ( think the highest stack I ever got was 6 as melee, that's just laughable.
Holy sword = don't believe the hype! It's great for raising Paladin dps cause the old builds were junk but compared to Swashbucklers stacking crit range and precision / empty offhand +10 damage ( = 20 strength worth remember ), still can't beat Swash.

Yes Paladin for heavy armor, nice saves.... But all the talk about being the kings of dps, I don't think so.
I want to try the non evasion Swashbuckler bard/fighter/FvS , max strength 16 starting Charisma and all level ups into charisma , using divine might. Precision stance, and tons of feats.

Paladin is fun, but I found underwhelming and the lack of feats...OMG gtfo :)

BoBoDaClown
10-03-2014, 03:51 PM
I was using +5 Holy Light Pick of Deception, Red slot: Devotion, ML16. Can be also recrafted as Holy Burst, ML20 (2W), but I was so far too lazy. Perhaps if I do another ETR...

Thanks, but I assume (perhaps incorrectly) a Lit2 will do more damage than a cannith crafted?


On the one build I that I left as a parody build, I used GS until 26 and then switched to TF (there were several TR lives involved here). My current TR project uses a parody as my TR base, 10 Current TR Class/8Bard/2Rog and am using GS all the way thru 28.

If you have the ingredients from the ES challenges, I managed a life stealing weapon that I use as well.

ES challenegs are a great idea-I didn't think of that. I don't think I can be bothered, but it sounds ideal. Are they still random? Is there some kind of reroll/deconstruct system now? I think I'll prob be using GS until TF.


I used a lot a 2(1d6) alchemical cold iron hand axe minlevel 13 and a 2(1d6) alchemical adamantine light mace I got in previous life at house cannith ,
also I crafted a silver hand axe with holy burst for meridia which worked really nice even on epics with werewolves and vampires in e-orchard
very useful and easy to craft il an h-axe +1 for magic attack , ghost touch , of Greater incorporeal bane , a blast with undead in low lvls .
At the moment in epics I still use crafted axes since Tforged is in progress .
All my crafted weapons are slotted for devotion or sonic power , and as long as you can craft em to get the 2(1d6) damage , the output is very nice .
At low lvls I used often the melee alacrity suffix for more attack speed .
Since u get a btc +2 stat tome with favor , the best use of it is to Exchange it for purified eberron dshards in crafting hall and use em to build powerful axes , like a +5 holy burst of maiming for big crits .

Have fun

K.

Yeah I don't have enough alchemicl ingredients; thanks for the idea though. I can cannith craft whatever I want, but I don't think the dps compares to a lit2, except on spcific mobs (i.e. a holy burst, GEOB vs devils)?


Balizarde lvl23 Rapier. Upgraded to tier 4 and using the raid gem for the damage bonus.
I've tested many weapons, and this one with its crit range, red meteoric ruby nothing is as good for a swashbuckler.
This weapon is a serious contender for highest dps when your build is done right. I noticed very little improvement in damage when switching to Thunderforged.

Also using this rapier saves a feat as it is already keened.
Now that LD has been utterly nerfed , this rapier is the way to go.
Match it with the new gear from Epic orchard, a level in FvS for the divine might. ( 5-6 bard, 12 fighter, 2FvS) and I have become a killing machine. ( Also, swash out dps Paladin, ...... I am going back to my Swash build next life )

I would use a balizarde, except I'm using Throw Your Weight Around.


Thank you for the feedback guys.

Unless I have enough spares for an ES Challenge weapon, it looks like I will use a Lit2 until TF.

Zoda
10-04-2014, 05:41 AM
@BoBoDaClown: at 22 blank TF is already decent. Radiance GS is very solid up until that point, way better than lit2 imo.

---

U23 changed this build's relative power a lot. I tred to a pure pdk pally and the power gap is pretty big imo. A CON based dwarf version might just be better for the current metagame though, could use the extra 500 or so HP in e/e Mark of Death for sure (big dps drop though, and extremely thigh on AP).

Sebastrd
10-04-2014, 06:10 AM
U23 changed this build's relative power a lot. I tred to a pure pdk pally and the power gap is pretty big imo. A CON based dwarf version might just be better for the current metagame though, could use the extra 500 or so HP in e/e Mark of Death for sure (big dps drop though, and extremely thigh on AP).

How so? The only thing I've noticed is that my bard seems to be far more survivable than the paladins in the new content; but I haven't played a pally yet, so it's hard to compare.

Takllin
10-04-2014, 09:10 AM
How so? The only thing I've noticed is that my bard seems to be far more survivable than the paladins in the new content; but I haven't played a pally yet, so it's hard to compare.

Well you are comparing yourself against players who might have inferior skill sets/gear/EDs/etc.

The boost to PRR/MRR and DPS is amazing. I'd say test it yourself to see.

cru121
10-04-2014, 10:07 AM
Thanks, but I assume (perhaps incorrectly) a Lit2 will do more damage than a cannith crafted?
Yes. Though I never felt like my swash was lacking DPS. Whereas red slot for devotion is nice. You also get some 18+ implement bonus to your spell power, what should also help a bit with sonic proc on crit. You could also add some DPS suffix (bleed) instead of deception. For me it was simply a slot consolidation (devotion, deception, basic DR breaking). (And also I don't have mats for GS :)

Zoda
10-04-2014, 10:58 PM
How so? The only thing I've noticed is that my bard seems to be far more survivable than the paladins in the new content; but I haven't played a pally yet, so it's hard to compare.

Glancing blow changes put swashbucklers in an awkward spot. THF with good twitching skills is just way more powerful than swf imo.

Chimeran1
10-05-2014, 02:07 AM
Glancing blow changes put swashbucklers in an awkward spot. THF with good twitching skills is just way more powerful than swf imo.

I found the glancing blows still did not beat the critical hits that a Swash puts out.
In the time my Paladin pulled off 3 crits, my swash had done 12.

I think if you really wanted a pure DPS Swash ( maybe strength using divine might )
You would see that Swash output of critical hits beats all other melee contenders.

It was like the test with TF vs the Balizarde rapier.
Sure the TF looked better on paper, but Balizarde was throwing out ridiculous numbers of spamming crit hits in the test, the TF never got a look in.

I am sure a number cruncher could work out the optimum output for a dps Swashbuckler.
To me, it is all about critical hit chance and a < x3 crit multiplier.

( also, a build for twitch players would require twitch play knowledge ) I am not a big fan of it, seems like an exploit though I understand it is WIA

Divine Swashbuckler FTW

Chimeran1
10-05-2014, 02:26 AM
Well you are comparing yourself against players who might have inferior skill sets/gear/EDs/etc.

The boost to PRR/MRR and DPS is amazing. I'd say test it yourself to see.

Agreed, it is quite amazing.

Zoda
10-05-2014, 04:24 AM
I found the glancing blows still did not beat the critical hits that a Swash puts out.
In the time my Paladin pulled off 3 crits, my swash had done 12.

I think if you really wanted a pure DPS Swash ( maybe strength using divine might )
You would see that Swash output of critical hits beats all other melee contenders.

It was like the test with TF vs the Balizarde rapier.
Sure the TF looked better on paper, but Balizarde was throwing out ridiculous numbers of spamming crit hits in the test, the TF never got a look in.

I am sure a number cruncher could work out the optimum output for a dps Swashbuckler.
To me, it is all about critical hit chance and a < x3 crit multiplier.

( also, a build for twitch players would require twitch play knowledge ) I am not a big fan of it, seems like an exploit though I understand it is WIA

Divine Swashbuckler FTW

Theorycrafting is pretty much pointless at this point. I'll record some e/e Breaking the ranks runs when I finalize my gear, do the same with your swash and we'll see. (this is not a challange, I'm honestly interested)

Also with high enough dmg mod, Balizard probably gets beaten by Forester's Brush Hook, the only question is what that dmg mod is and if it's reachable, my guess is that it is.

I hope you are not comparing u22 blitzing swash to u23 pally btw, that's not a fair comparison (old blitz OP), but yes in u22 my dworf went up to 8k crits on helplesss and my pally won't, although if they fix exalted smite animation I might actually start using it as part of my attack chain instead of a short duration boost I'm hitting while running up to the enemy, and that'll help a lot. I wonder how and why they broke Exalted Smite animation...

About twitching: even on swash your dps improves if you do it, just not by that big margine.

EliahuTheMighty
10-05-2014, 10:20 AM
I loved this build in U22, and I'm still loving it in U23, even with the blitz dps decreased. In fact, all the changes just mean that I'm pumping out more dps at all times except when I'm blitzing.

That being said, I want to try out the Pally changes, and I'm trying to figure out the optimal DPS/Defense layout to make up for losing infinite displace and evasion.

Thoughts on best layout:

BF nice bc already pally, and self heal for big numbers. Otherwise, something that gets glancing blows may work nicely, otherwise human or PDK if they get CHA with bastard swords.

3 THF Line (glancing blow dmg)+
2 Shield feats +
10%/20% combat speed from Vanguard (depending on build, see what AP layout works best)
Use S&B.

Could use light armor and whatever shields allow evasion if I want to keep it, otherwise, heavy armor and tower shields.

Or something with SWF + orb. Or is it still broken to not give defender stance bonuses without shield equipped (hp and buffs specifically)?

Thoughts?

Zoda
10-05-2014, 03:23 PM
I loved this build in U22, and I'm still loving it in U23, even with the blitz dps decreased. In fact, all the changes just mean that I'm pumping out more dps at all times except when I'm blitzing.

That being said, I want to try out the Pally changes, and I'm trying to figure out the optimal DPS/Defense layout to make up for losing infinite displace and evasion.

Thoughts on best layout:

BF nice bc already pally, and self heal for big numbers. Otherwise, something that gets glancing blows may work nicely, otherwise human or PDK if they get CHA with bastard swords.

3 THF Line (glancing blow dmg)+
2 Shield feats +
10%/20% combat speed from Vanguard (depending on build, see what AP layout works best)
Use S&B.

Could use light armor and whatever shields allow evasion if I want to keep it, otherwise, heavy armor and tower shields.

Or something with SWF + orb. Or is it still broken to not give defender stance bonuses without shield equipped (hp and buffs specifically)?

Thoughts?

Imo fleshie is way better choice than BF, especially for vanguard. BF is an AP nightmare, and if you can't heal yourself on a pure pala without BF reconstrust... well, then you deserve to die anyway, like miserably. The extra feat is handy, and fleshie has a major advantage in the new raid as well (quell doesn't stop you from using coccoon and SF pots/healing elixirs hit you for way more).

Orb is not meant to give defender stance bonuses, I'd say it's broken because it provides the doublestrike from shield stuff.

Pure is best choice for both KOTC and Vanguard imo, those capstones are too good to give up, evasion is absolutely not needed. For vanguard set up your sentinel (legendary shield mastery) before you tr to save feats, otherwise it's tough fit stuff.

EliahuTheMighty
10-05-2014, 11:54 PM
Imo fleshie is way better choice than BF, especially for vanguard. BF is an AP nightmare, and if you can't heal yourself on a pure pala without BF reconstrust... well, then you deserve to die anyway, like miserably. The extra feat is handy, and fleshie has a major advantage in the new raid as well (quell doesn't stop you from using coccoon and SF pots/healing elixirs hit you for way more).

Orb is not meant to give defender stance bonuses, I'd say it's broken because it provides the doublestrike from shield stuff.

Pure is best choice for both KOTC and Vanguard imo, those capstones are too good to give up, evasion is absolutely not needed. For vanguard set up your sentinel (legendary shield mastery) before you tr to save feats, otherwise it's tough fit stuff.

Interesting. Yea, I was looking at the numbers, and BF isn't much better off AP-wise than Dwarf. Though it can be pulled off with less.

Def agree on the healing. I personally only need elixirs and cocoon, but ya know, saw a lot of people dying when we were learning MoD at first on live.

Can you explain what you meant about exalted cleave being broken? Need to know where [not] to spend my points.

Orb isn't what should give the stance bonus, it's that you're wearing heavy armor. Stance states Heavy armor OR shield. I'm told it is fixed on live.

So THF line for glancing if going S&B, otherwise SWF line for speed and use orb?
I guess for KOTC vs Vanguard, SWF works better with KOTC for more DPS, Vanguard for more defense (and WINGS).

Zoda
10-06-2014, 03:06 AM
Here is a breaking the ranks run I just recorded as a pally:
<br>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf2Kmm-mffI&amp;feature=youtu.be

I played far from perfect there, gear is a bit messy for now, yet still almost a minute faster than the swash run I recorded. And that one was with the old blitz, which is waaaaaay more powerful than new one (or new crusader for that matter, which I'm using now), the melee power loss compared to update22 is absolutely HUGE, yet the pally was still faster. I will probably go under 13 minutes when everything is set and I get used to playing pally.

Edit: I just noticed that my purification aura was turned off from making the run to the harper camp lol, that's a fairly huge loss of dps output in a quest with so many mobs heh. What a noob...



Can you explain what you meant about exalted cleave being broken? Need to know where [not] to spend my points.

So THF line for glancing if going S&B, otherwise SWF line for speed and use orb?
I guess for KOTC vs Vanguard, SWF works better with KOTC for more DPS, Vanguard for more defense (and WINGS).

I was talking about Exalted Smite, not cleave. It used to have regular attack animation, but after the update hit, it got the awkward animation of the regular Smite Evil feat, which is very very slow, and I think actually spamming smites and Holy Retribution (which is also a bit slow for what it does for my taste) actually results in a dps loss not gain (although I haven't done any serious testing, still... they are so slow).

I'm not sure if it worths going SWF, release notes say that you only get the glancing blows while moving if you have THF feat. If you get GBs on bastard sword/dwarven axe while moving without the feat, then they might be stronger than thf, but even then I'm not sure, falchion crit profile is very nice. I'll stay with my falchion for aesthetic reasons anyway, unless if I go vanguard - which I'm planning to try, but destroyed my Madstone Aegis a few lives ago to create bank space for tring... duh. I could just get every necessary feat + completionist if I set up my sentinel tree before reincarnation.

As for race choice, I think human and PDK are best imo.

EliahuTheMighty
10-06-2014, 11:40 AM
*Breaking ranks play*


Can't watch atm, but good to know, thanks.



I was talking about Exalted Smite, not cleave. It used to have regular attack animation, but after the update hit, it got the awkward animation of the regular Smite Evil feat, which is very very slow, and I think actually spamming smites and Holy Retribution (which is also a bit slow for what it does for my taste) actually results in a dps loss not gain (although I haven't done any serious testing, still... they are so slow).


Interesting. From what I looked at, Holy Retribution doesn't require Exalted Smite, so may check it out if going that route. The description looked great.



I'm not sure if it worths going SWF, release notes say that you only get the glancing blows while moving if you have THF feat. If you get GBs on bastard sword/dwarven axe while moving without the feat, then they might be stronger than thf, but even then I'm not sure, falchion crit profile is very nice. I'll stay with my falchion for aesthetic reasons anyway, unless if I go vanguard - which I'm planning to try, but destroyed my Madstone Aegis a few lives ago to create bank space for tring... duh. I could just get every necessary feat + completionist if I set up my sentinel tree before reincarnation.


Hmm. Can't check wiki right now, but are Shield Master and THF feats mutually exclusive? If not, I was thinking of taking them both.

If So, I would think THF is superior even with S&B fighting. The boosts to MP and continual glancing blows with BS/DA should total more DPS than 8% dblstrike, and the 15 PRR/MRR shouldn't be a dealbreaker.

For Vanguard, I have guildy who was saying they shield bash about every 2 seconds for 100 normally, crit for 500 while we were talking. And they're not pure. I think it was with PDK shield, which seems like best choice bc extra smashes, and vorpal smash, +other bonuses.



As for race choice, I think human and PDK are best imo.

I agree. Determining factor is if you want to go pure or not. I'm looking at pure pally for vanguard capstone (unless you can splash fighter and still get capstone because they both get class). Otherwise, would go PDK if fighter level is ok. And feats are no problem then.

On a side note, my guildy was telling me they went 15pally/5fighter to take T5 Block and Cut from Stalwart. Averaging 75-85% dblstrike when wielding the 15% sword.

Nodoze
10-06-2014, 01:00 PM
...
For Vanguard, I have guildy who was saying they shield bash about every 2 seconds for 100 normally, crit for 500 while we were talking. And they're not pure. I think it was with PDK shield, which seems like best choice bc extra smashes, and vorpal smash, +other bonuses.

I agree. Determining factor is if you want to go pure or not. I'm looking at pure pally for vanguard capstone (unless you can splash fighter and still get capstone because they both get class). Otherwise, would go PDK if fighter level is ok. And feats are no problem then.

On a side note, my guildy was telling me they went 15pally/5fighter to take T5 Block and Cut from Stalwart. Averaging 75-85% dblstrike when wielding the 15% sword.I would be surprised if you can splash Fighter and still get capstone like a Pure Paladin even though they share a tree... Then again this is Turbine so anything is possible...

Would be interesting to see a comparison of the 15Paladin/5Fighter vs a Pure Paladin.

thouston
11-04-2014, 06:01 AM
wow, i watched the first video and i want to do this.

did U23 change this build?

does anyone have it in the ron's character planner format or something similar.

i need to see it all written out so i dont screw it up.

Retrodark
11-05-2014, 11:38 AM
wow, i watched the first video and i want to do this.

did U23 change this build?

does anyone have it in the ron's character planner format or something similar.

i need to see it all written out so i dont screw it up.

Yes U23 made changes to all melee builds. In particular, blitz was nerfed to only be about 70% more damage when you have 10 stacks. It is also harder to get 10 stacks and easier to fail to get any stacks.

In addition, SWF attack speeds were reduced.

That being said, this build is still powerful and fun. It can still be run in LD and works well in Divine Crusader too

The layout supplied by the OP should be more than enough to follow without messing up this build. Biggest thing of note is that you can easily start with a 12 or 13 str (to get PA at lvl 1 or 3) and still get Overwhelming Crit. That gives you 8-9 ability points to distribute elsewhere. So a few more into DEX, WIS, CHAR, INT maybe for saves and rogue skills.

Something like this with a 36 point build compared to OP layout.

STR - 12 (+1 tome kicks in at lvl 3...grab PA)
DEX - 12 (+1 reflex saves)
CON - 20
INT - 14 (more points to spend on skills and added bonus to rogue skills)
WIS - 12 (+2 will saves)
CHA - 8

Start with rogue for level 1. bard lvl 2, fighter lvl 3, save a couple of the fighter levels for the upper levels to get GSWF and ISM, otherwise fill in the rest where ever you wish. Ex. RBFB BBBB BBRF BBBF FFBF

unbongwah
11-05-2014, 11:55 AM
In addition, SWF attack speeds were reduced.
The atk speed is the same (+30% w/GSWF); it's the dmg bonus that got nerfed (+150% w/GSWF, so it's the same as 2H weapons).

Retrodark
11-06-2014, 12:17 PM
The atk speed is the same (+30% w/GSWF); it's the dmg bonus that got nerfed (+150% w/GSWF, so it's the same as 2H weapons).

Yeah that!

xberto
11-20-2014, 10:50 AM
I've started this build with my dwarf. I'm still confused though wondering why the Stalwart stances that require medium or heavy armor yet still utilizing evasion. Can someone enlighten me plz? Thick, my dwarven skull is...

ddorimble
11-20-2014, 10:56 AM
I've started this build with my dwarf. I'm still confused though wondering why the Stalwart stances that require medium or heavy armor yet still utilizing evasion. Can someone enlighten me plz? Thick, my dwarven skull is...

Stalwart Stance requires Medium/Heavy Armor OR a Shield.

xberto
11-20-2014, 11:41 AM
AH! very good thx

SealedInSong
11-23-2014, 12:56 AM
After a bit of testing on Lamannia, the Axe of the Unseen Blow is probably the worst handaxe in the game for a Swashbuckler. This is because for some reason or another (maybe the unusual coding it has for offhand use?) it doesn't seem to count as a Handaxe for the purposes of Swashbuckling.

If this is true, can you provide some proof and bug report it?

Seems pretty terrible. Its item description lists it as a hand (axe), so this doesn't seem like an intentionally exceptional case like Sun Blades being short swords that look like bastard swords.

unbongwah
11-28-2014, 11:00 AM
If this is true, can you provide some proof and bug report it?
According to Scrabbler (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/449503-u23-Axe-of-Unseen-Blow-Swashbuckler), AotUS got fixed in U23. I don't have one, though, so I couldn't test it myself.

BigGoettge
12-10-2014, 06:32 AM
Has the build been broken that bad with the altering of LD that i shouldnt try it out?

Or is it still playable and fun?

Kwyjibo
12-10-2014, 07:33 AM
Has the build been broken that bad with the altering of LD that i shouldnt try it out?

Or is it still playable and fun?
I don't play in LD, I run around in DC and have no problems running content. If you have any niggling to try this build, do it. It's a very solid and fun to play melee build.

unbongwah
12-10-2014, 08:54 AM
Has the build been broken that bad with the altering of LD that i shouldnt try it out?
Looking at the OP, a few changes in U23 have, if anything, made this build better & easier to pull off:

Overwhelming Crit no longer requires base STR 23 nor Great Cleave; so you can drop STR and the Cleaves if you want. Consider trading Power Atk for Precision and taking Thread the Needle.
Defensive stance got moved from lvl 6 down to lvl 3. This opens up different lvl splits; e.g., bard 15/ftr 3/rog 2 gives up two feats and higher-tier ftr enhs for lvl 4 & 5 spells and Inspire Heroics, which also makes Inspire Excellence an option.
Vanguard PrE has some nice DPS perks and tactical abilities like Stunning Shield.
If you have Harper, you can boost your DPS by investing in INT and Know the Angles.


The only downside is TYWA chews up at 18 APs, limiting your options. So a conventional STR-based build may be better now, simply to free up some APs for the new PrEs.

cru121
12-10-2014, 10:11 AM
...Inspire Excellence...

Just want to note that Inspire Excellence does not stack with stalwart stance.

unbongwah
12-10-2014, 10:19 AM
Just want to note that Inspire Excellence does not stack with stalwart stance.
The STR/CON bonuses don't stack if you've got them from SD; but the other stat bonuses should apply. I don't have an epic bard/ftr I can test that on at the moment, though.

cru121
12-10-2014, 11:34 PM
The STR/CON bonuses don't stack if you've got them from SD; but the other stat bonuses should apply. I don't have an epic bard/ftr I can test that on at the moment, though.

yeah, other scores stack, just the ones you want to pump up most don't.

Thoden
12-11-2014, 02:47 AM
The only downside is TYWA chews up at 18 APs, limiting your options. So a conventional STR-based build may be better now, simply to free up some APs for the new PrEs.

Doesn't this essentially mean that dwarf is pretty much just flavor? Is there any reason not to go human/PDK?

unbongwah
12-11-2014, 06:38 AM
Doesn't this essentially mean that dwarf is pretty much just flavor?
Yes. But TYWA builds have always been flavor builds, IMHO. And this build predates Vanguard; nowadays I'd rather spend APs there than on TYWA.

Is there any reason not to go human/PDK?
Umm, because dwarves rawk? :cool:

Zoda
12-15-2014, 03:14 AM
Actually before getting into defender stance was so ridiculously easy, one might have wanted TYWA simply to get a big HP pool, I used to have 1900 hp in LD at the end, and that was very useful for stuff like face tanking EE deathwyrm and such (although kiting was infinitely easier, but tanking was fun^^). I'm actually working on a new swash build, and I'm really tempted to go TWYA again, especially since that one won't have defender stance.

Another note for those who want to use this build now: if you play in DC, light pick is strictly better than handaxe.

BigGoettge
12-27-2014, 06:07 PM
How big is the diff between rapier (balizarde) and proper handaxe use?

Still better of with the handaxe on this build?

unbongwah
12-28-2014, 08:20 AM
How big is the diff between rapier (balizarde) and proper handaxe use?
The whole point to this build is to use Throw Your Weight Around (TYWA) to get CON to dmg instead of STR; on a SWF Swashie, that only works with handaxes, light picks, or light hammers.

Zoriath
01-02-2015, 03:26 PM
What about toughness? no need for it?

thouston
01-04-2015, 05:34 PM
... I'm actually working on a new swash build, and I'm really tempted to go TWYA again, especially since that one won't have defender stance...

was thinking about tring,
do you have an eta on new build?

Zoda
01-04-2015, 09:12 PM
was thinking about tring,
do you have an eta on new build?

I actually turned into pure barb :)

The build I was considering would have been one of 15 barb 3 bard 2 rog/16 barb 3 bard 1 fvs/15 barb 3 bard 2 fighter (divine might vs. KTA + evasion vs. KTA + 2 feats + cheap haste boost). The idea was to get the swash stance + buckler and go t5 ravager because Blood Strength is amazing, but in the end I decided to go nostalgic with good old fashioned pure human barb (like my first life haha).

BigGoettge
01-05-2015, 07:23 AM
Will i loose a big time deal if i go 2/4/14?

Do i still have the required feats?

cru121
01-05-2015, 08:19 AM
No. You'll probably have to give up epic toughness. So what, you'll have enough hp.

BigGoettge
01-05-2015, 09:13 AM
I am not much informed bout this, so please excuse all my questions :)

What kind of bnefit would the extra 2 bard lvls give me?

unbongwah
01-05-2015, 09:27 AM
What kind of bnefit would the extra 2 bard lvls give me?
Bard 12: Song of Freedom, core enhs
Bard 13: two lvl 5 spells
Bard 14: +1 Inspire Courage, +1 lvl 5 spell
Bard 15: Inspire Heroics (pre-req for Inspire Excellence)
Bard 16: two lvl 6 spells
Bard 17: +1 lvl 6 spell
Bard 18: Mass Suggestion song, core enhs
Bard 19: +1 lvl 6 spell
Bard 20: +1 Inspire Courage, +1 lvl 5 spell, capstone

If you're not going with the 12/6/2 split, I prefer the 15/3/2 split to get lvl 5 spells, the extra bump to Inspire Courage, and Inspire Heroics+Excellence; downside is losing two feats and access to higher-tier ftr enhs.

BigGoettge
01-05-2015, 09:37 AM
Looks like i need lvl 4 ftr to get the enhances i need

2/4/14 would not be a good choice?

I like your ideas and informations :)

----

Ohhhh, as far as i can see the build needs the mentioned feats, so dont think i have any choice actually

AbyssalMage
01-19-2015, 09:07 PM
<snip>

I prefer the 15/3/2 split to get lvl 5 spells, the extra bump to Inspire Courage, and Inspire Heroics+Excellence; downside is losing two feats and access to higher-tier ftr enhs.
I am about to TR and debating what style build I should go for...
It's between this build, the pure 20 Bard "Count" build, or "Icebreaker". Some things have changed sense since he built this one (namely the requirements for OC and changes to Fighter) and because he TR'd into a Barbarian, I am trying to decide what direction I should go in.

My thoughts:
15/3/2 *Strength Based*

Defensive stance - I lose out on Rage but gain PRR/MRR which seems to be very desirable where the pendulum currently sits.
Gain evasion earlier.
2 more feats than a pure Bard
Going Human for +feat and +skill point/level (easier to trap). Is this a mistake over Dwarf and Constitution based?


The Count of Monte Cristo (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443235-The-Count-of-Monte-Cristo-dps-CC-survivability-focused-pure-swashbuckler)
Pure

CC - Have both Disco and Fascinate
WC makes a strong synergy with Swash Buckling if I choose not to Disco
Very detailed gear set-up (but I will probably incorporate into what ever I choose lol)


The Icebreaker (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446859-The-Icebreaker-A-Freezing-Warchanter-Bard)
15/3/2 PDK. I know the original is a 12/6/2 but will drop it down to 15/3/2 for the stance mostly.

I haven't read a lot about this build but I like the CC aspect through Melee. It is a mindless CC build :)
Uses PDK so not thrilled about that (I think it looks worse than half-elf imho) but not a game changer.
I can't ETR and then immediately TR with an Iconic :( Does this bother you/friends?


Here is what I am really needing to know...

I need a toon that will be very versatile in both Heroic and Epic content with minimal gear/effort. This is why I am not going with the Barbarian or Paladin. Tempest Trapmonkey's are fun, but Bard's blow Rangers out of the water in both versatility and DPS with low gear currently.
The build needs to be able to handle EH solo and EE group. My current build, the one I am TR'ing out of, can't do this. Bards at least have Fascinate with EE so I am not a complete piker.
I would like to do Tor Dragons EH solo, gear permitting. If any of these 3 builds can not do that, its an auto disqualification. Please let me know. Doesn't sound like it from what I have read so far.
Leveling order. I want to make sure I maximize my skill points. The three fighter and 2nd rogue level(s) should be taken when (with the exception of the iconic which will be Fighter at level 1 regardless, no heart)?
Should I just drop trapping skills (Search/Disarm) and keep Open Locks with the 2 Rogue splash?