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Mav145
06-25-2014, 09:55 AM
Do the tactical feats work on a dex-based acrobat or do you have to go strength? Like the warforged tactical feats? Also, what kind of trip do we need to be aiming for to be effective on the different levels of epic content? Thanks for any help that you can give.

Miahoo
06-25-2014, 10:07 AM
Do the tactical feats work on a dex-based acrobat or do you have to go strength? Like the warforged tactical feats? Also, what kind of trip do we need to be aiming for to be effective on the different levels of epic content? Thanks for any help that you can give.

The feats are str based. I'm pretty sure acro doesn't make them dex based.

Sweeping Strike is dex based thou'.

As for DC, I'd say mid 50 for caster mobs for ee gh, but not sure.

Mav145
06-25-2014, 10:10 AM
Thank you for your help. I am wanting to TR into the Zeus build but I could not find if he was STR based or DEX based.

Miahoo
06-25-2014, 10:13 AM
Thank you for your help. I am wanting to TR into the Zeus build but I could not find if he was STR based or DEX based.

As I said on other posts, dex build is a trap. Think through if u really want it.

Take into consideration your toon wont be optimal no matter what (not that it's a bad thing...).

unbongwah
06-25-2014, 10:20 AM
Sweeping Strike is dex based thou'.
So is Executioner's Strike (Shadowdancer). There really ought to be more DEX-based tactical options, though. :(

Mav145
06-25-2014, 10:23 AM
As I said on other posts, dex build is a trap. Think through if u really want it.

Take into consideration your toon wont be optimal no matter what (not that it's a bad thing...).

Would you care to explain that last part? I am a level 28 assassin right now and I will just stay there rather than TR into something that is not optimal. Can you point me to some rogue-ish builds that feature a q-staff?

Miahoo
06-25-2014, 10:24 AM
So is Executioner's Strike (Shadowdancer). There really ought to be more DEX-based tactical options, though. :(

As an acro I don't think you want the shadowdancer tree. You'll gimp yourself so bad.

Miahoo
06-25-2014, 10:38 AM
Would you care to explain that last part? I am a level 28 assassin right now and I will just stay there rather than TR into something that is not optimal. Can you point me to some rogue-ish builds that feature a q-staff?

Sure.

STR vs DEX is a long term debate. Primal Scream shut this debate off, as you'll always lose 5 points even if you'll be able to "even your dex with the potential str" (which you wont).

While assassins can get away with int based insta kill assassination, acros are based on DPS alone - which you'll lose 5 points from Primal and Overwhelming Critical in exchange of... what? some reflex save you don't need anyway?

With the new nifty stuff we got, nowdays melee DPS = Crit. People nowdays can get sustain x5 crits (with the stick) - (ps, thats why the weapons from the new raid are so bad imo).
Add seeker to the equation and you'll get sick crit numbers - adding blitz will blow your mind.

Ayseifn
06-25-2014, 11:08 AM
Dex based is pretty fun if you go with a defensive roll build, there is some gimping involved though.

First you'll want 100 reflex for no fail on your def roll, which means paladin levels. You wont be using divine might though so all that cha mod goes into saves only.

Secondly things get pretty tight when pushing for that 100, you'll be giving up twist slots, enhancements, item slots, probably a feat or 3 amongst other things to get there.

Third, less DPS than str based. No Overwhelming crit, no divine might, no rage/primal scream, and most likely no cleaves. There are no named +11 str items nor any with +4 exceptional though, so there's that at least.

I really enjoyed my dex based acro life and will probably do it again when there's more ways to buff ref saves, they're incredibly sturdy and the DPS is serviceable, not stellar but way ahead of SnB tanks.

thegreatneil
06-25-2014, 11:18 AM
Sure.

STR vs DEX is a long term debate. Primal Scream shut this debate off, as you'll always lose 5 points even if you'll be able to "even your dex with the potential str" (which you wont).

.

Are you sure about this? I don't think you are.

Miahoo
06-25-2014, 11:56 AM
Are you sure about this? I don't think you are.

Are you sure I'm not sure? I don't think you are. :rolleyes:

Miahoo
06-25-2014, 11:58 AM
Dex based is pretty fun if you go with a defensive roll build, there is some gimping involved though.

I was talking DPS aspects. If those reflex points are important to you, go ahead.



I really enjoyed my dex based acro life

It all comes to this eventually :)

PsychoBlonde
06-25-2014, 12:10 PM
As for DC, I'd say mid 50 for caster mobs for ee gh, but not sure.

Trip DC's actually are substantially lower than what you need on stun. I've tripped stuff regularly in all sorts of EE content with under a 40 dc. It's kind of all over the place, though.

PsychoBlonde
06-25-2014, 12:14 PM
Are you sure about this? I don't think you are.

5 strength is, at best, +3. It's not that big of a deal, in fact, I don't really notice whether I have it on or not. I prefer a strength build for a staff rogue simply because that way you can get Overwhelming Crit. If you're using anything but Sirieth you're doing it wrong, anyway, and one of the nice things about Sirieth is the crit profile.

thegreatneil
06-25-2014, 12:21 PM
5 strength is, at best, +3. It's not that big of a deal, in fact, I don't really notice whether I have it on or not. I prefer a strength build for a staff rogue simply because that way you can get Overwhelming Crit. If you're using anything but Sirieth you're doing it wrong, anyway, and one of the nice things about Sirieth is the crit profile.

The only thing a dex build would lose is OC. That's it.
Great for the 19-20, not so much on the rest.

Miahoo
06-25-2014, 12:37 PM
The only thing a dex build would lose is OC. That's it.
Great for the 19-20, not so much on the rest.

and ITHF, unless u can get 17 str.

OC alone is +10% base dmg to your DPS.

unbongwah
06-25-2014, 01:29 PM
STR vs DEX usually boils down to DPS vs survivability (i.e., AC & Reflex saves). Reflex saves are pretty important, but there are other ways of boosting them than going DEX-based; and under the current to-hit system, things like Dodge, concealment, and Incorporeality are more important than AC to your defenses.

STR-based builds have three big advantages: there are more STR-only (or STR&CON-only) buffs in DDO than there are for DEX (e.g., Ram's Might, Divine Might, Rage, Primal Scream, etc.); access to more DPS feats, particularly if going THF (Power Atk: base STR 13; THF: STR 15; ITHF & GTHF: STR 17; Overwhelming Crit: STR 23); and most tactics DCs are based on STR rather than DEX (monk DCs are based on WIS).

I still enjoy the occasional DEX build myself, but it's usually the gimp / flavor choice. I would say my least gimp DEX build is an elf rog 13 / rgr 6 / ftr 1 with elven Grace (DEX to dmg w/rapiers & longbows, my primary weapons), full TWF & archery, and Imp Sneak Atk & Combat Archery as epic feats (ISA req's rog lvl 12+ and both req DEX 21). But "least gimp" != "not gimp," much less "optimal." :cool:

unbongwah
06-25-2014, 02:02 PM
OC alone is +10% base dmg to your DPS.
No, it's not: OC applies to 10% of all attacks, where it provides at best +50% crit dmg (x2->x3); which means best-case scenario is +5% to overall DPS. If you use weapons with higher than x2 crit multiplier, the overall DPS increase is lower: e.g. x3->x4 is 3.3% increase. It's a bit more complicated than that once you factor in Seeker bonuses etc., but you get the idea.

It's still a nice feat to have and DEX builds don't get anything comparable, but its importance tends to be overstated, IMHO.

grandeibra
06-25-2014, 03:11 PM
Primal Scream shut this debate offErrm for me an acrobat should be in LD to max dps. There are better twists than Primal Scream for dps. So no I disagree that it settled any debate. Also saying reflex saves is all you get from dex is simply silly.

I personally prefer str but I wouldn't say it's a sure thing which is better. I enjoy both.

Miahoo
06-25-2014, 08:52 PM
STR vs DEX usually boils down to DPS vs survivability (i.e., AC & Reflex saves). Reflex saves are pretty important, but there are other ways of boosting them than going DEX-based; and under the current to-hit system, things like Dodge, concealment, and Incorporeality are more important than AC to your defenses.

STR-based builds have three big advantages: there are more STR-only (or STR&CON-only) buffs in DDO than there are for DEX (e.g., Ram's Might, Divine Might, Rage, Primal Scream, etc.); access to more DPS feats, particularly if going THF (Power Atk: base STR 13; THF: STR 15; ITHF & GTHF: STR 17; Overwhelming Crit: STR 23); and most tactics DCs are based on STR rather than DEX (monk DCs are based on WIS).

I still enjoy the occasional DEX build myself, but it's usually the gimp / flavor choice. I would say my least gimp DEX build is an elf rog 13 / rgr 6 / ftr 1 with elven Grace (DEX to dmg w/rapiers & longbows, my primary weapons), full TWF & archery, and Imp Sneak Atk & Combat Archery as epic feats (ISA req's rog lvl 12+ and both req DEX 21). But "least gimp" != "not gimp," much less "optimal." :cool:
The question is how many AC/reflex vs how many DPS - if you think it worth it - go for it.


snip

10% base attack DPS, not 10% DPS.
If you do 50 base dmg u get 5 more dmg (another 50 dmg on 19-20) - stop argue on every sentence!

Nightmanis
06-25-2014, 11:26 PM
I've had a couple dex builds. Hell, one of them didn't even have dex to damage (doesn't work for unarmed) and would you look at that, I never once felt like I wasn't contributing. The difference in damage output, especially if we're talking 5 points of damage, is so minor in epic levels that you will almost never notice it. In heroics it's only a problem until you get the actual enhancement, then there aren't enough bonuses available to worry about it.

I mean really. Only fighters and barbarians seem to be able to reliably hit 80 str. Most people hit 60 and cash it a day. Dex builds hitting 50 dex? 5 points of damage and slightly less sexy numbers on crits. With an acrobat you want more crits and more sneak attacks, not necessarily larger ones.

thegreatneil
06-26-2014, 01:26 AM
I mean really. Only fighters and barbarians seem to be able to reliably hit 80 str. Most people hit 60 and cash it a day. Dex builds hitting 50 dex?


Dex - halfling

20 start
7 level ups
6 tome
2 racial
2 thief
2 assassin
6 shadow dodge (unsure if wai)
2 capstone
2 ship
2 yugo
11 item
4 insiteful
1 ex
1 liteny

68 pure rogue

72 tensors

2 completionist

74

2 monk (lose 2 on cap but 4 in GM wind)

76

6 ED (like shadowdancer, but i would stay in LD personally)

82

Don't read this, dex to damage is a trap.

Miahoo
06-26-2014, 04:11 AM
snipadoo
most of the things you write here are total **** and so outdated.

run whatever build you want, but don't drag newcommers to your bs.

grandeibra
06-26-2014, 08:36 AM
@MiahooJunk

I agree on your list of benefits of going str but seriously:
STR vs DEX usually boils down to DPS vs survivability (i.e., AC & Reflex saves). If you believe those are the sole benefits of dex builds I can see why you prefer str builds.

For TWF - not needing any str at all so being able to spend ability points only on dex/con vs needing str/con/some dex.
Getting close to 100% chance of only taking half damage when below 50% hp plus ignoring all more serious special effects
To me those two are vastly more important the small AC boost. And there are some other benefits as well but none are for me that substantial :)

Miahoo
06-26-2014, 09:58 AM
@MiahooJunk

I agree on your list of benefits of going str but seriously: If you believe those are the sole benefits of dex builds I can see why you prefer str builds.

For TWF - not needing any str at all so being able to spend ability points only on dex/con vs needing str/con/some dex.
Getting close to 100% chance of only taking half damage when below 50% hp plus ignoring all more serious special effects
To me those two are vastly more important the small AC boost. And there are some other benefits as well but none are for me that substantial :)

I do agree TWF is a different debate (and tbh, I kinda like the INT builds for assassination).

I do have respect for other builds, all I was saying is you need to take under consideration what you're losing by going the other route.
For THF, I'm sorry, but DEX build (imho) doesn't worth it.
As THF STR build I get OC, THF line and have enough CON for I.Toughness - and I can sustain 70-80 reflex when I need it (monk ed in ee fot, for example).

And again, if you like it, go for it!
I usually run under the pally ed on my rog (instead of dreadnought) just because I like it.

Nightmanis
06-26-2014, 08:16 PM
Dex - halfling

20 start I'm a toaster forged, so 16
7 level ups I spent this on wisdom, build choice
6 tome 5 tome for me
2 racial Don't get
2 thief
2 assassin Not sure if I can fit this in. 2 between the 2 prestiges though
6 shadow dodge (unsure if wai) No idea, didn't take it
2 capstone Won't have, dealt with down below
2 ship
2 yugo
11 item
4 insightful
1 ex
1 litany Not even going to attempt to farm for

68 pure rogue

72 tensors

2 completionist HA

74

2 monk (lose 2 on cap but 4 in GM wind)

76

6 ED (like shadowdancer, but i would stay in LD personally) I run LD because of Combat Brute, and also so I can have a blitz handy

82

Don't read this, dex to damage is a trap.

With what I posted in red, I would be able to hit 51 dex. That's actually not that bad, to be perfectly honest. That hits the nail on the head of what I was saying too about a dex build vs a str build.

unbongwah
06-27-2014, 09:12 AM
The difference in damage output, especially if we're talking 5 points of damage, is so minor in epic levels that you will almost never notice it.
Except it's not just about the difference in base stats. It's also about all the ways of boosting STR with no counterpart for DEX (or any other stat). E.g., Cetus (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/433254-Cetus-The-Supreme-Bladeforged-Fighter) gains +15 STR from Div Might and +8 STR from Power Surge; if he Twists in Primal Scream (or runs with someone else who has it), that's another +5 STR. That's up to +28(!!) STR, which depending on your combat style is anywhere between +7 dmg (offhand TWF) to +28 dmg (SWF) per hit; there's simply no way for a DEX build to make up that difference.

[Right now I suspect the highest possible STR would come from ftr 12 / barb 6 / FvS or cleric 2: Power Surge + Rage + Div Might + whatever else you can take. But that has serious survivability issues compared to monk 6 / pal 2 builds.]

Now obviously, if you've made a build which doesn't have access to all of those STR bonuses - like, say, a pure rogue? ;) - the DPS gap narrows considerably, but it's still there. As far as temp STR bonuses go, anyone can acquire Madstone Boots + Titan's Grip; anyone can TR a barb to take barb PL for Rage; anyone can Twist Primal Scream. And that's ignoring the extra DPS which comes from THF chain and/or OC; as well as the extra DPS from Stunning Blow + Sense Weakness.

Miahoo
06-27-2014, 09:34 AM
as well as the extra DPS from Stunning Blow + Sense Weakness.

What does SW has to do with str vs dex builds?

I agree with the rest of the post.

unbongwah
06-27-2014, 10:57 AM
What does SW has to do with str vs dex builds?
Sense Weakness is +30% dmg to helpless targets; Stunning Blow renders targets helpless for 6 secs. and its DC is based off STR. It's another DPS perk which a STR build can take that a DEX build can't. Or rather, you can take Sense Weakness, but there's no DEX-based ability for rendering targets helpless. :(

Again, the bottom line is if you are making a melee build which is not STR-based, it's because you're emphasizing something other than "raw" DPS, whether that's different DC-based abilities (e.g., INT for Assassinate on rogues, WIS on monk builds, your caster stat on gishes for higher spell DCs, etc.), higher AC & Reflex saves from DEX, or whatever.

Nightmanis
06-29-2014, 09:45 PM
Except it's not just about the difference in base stats. It's also about all the ways of boosting STR with no counterpart for DEX (or any other stat). E.g., Cetus (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/433254-Cetus-The-Supreme-Bladeforged-Fighter) gains +15 STR from Div Might and +8 STR from Power Surge; if he Twists in Primal Scream (or runs with someone else who has it), that's another +5 STR. That's up to +28(!!) STR, which depending on your combat style is anywhere between +7 dmg (offhand TWF) to +28 dmg (SWF) per hit; there's simply no way for a DEX build to make up that difference.

[Right now I suspect the highest possible STR would come from ftr 12 / barb 6 / FvS or cleric 2: Power Surge + Rage + Div Might + whatever else you can take. But that has serious survivability issues compared to monk 6 / pal 2 builds.]

Now obviously, if you've made a build which doesn't have access to all of those STR bonuses - like, say, a pure rogue? ;) - the DPS gap narrows considerably, but it's still there. As far as temp STR bonuses go, anyone can acquire Madstone Boots + Titan's Grip; anyone can TR a barb to take barb PL for Rage; anyone can Twist Primal Scream. And that's ignoring the extra DPS which comes from THF chain and/or OC; as well as the extra DPS from Stunning Blow + Sense Weakness.

The actual reasoning behind my post was if you can hit 60 str reliably on a build, but could also hit 50 dex just as easily, that's a difference of 5pts of damage. Obviously some builds will hit so much higher than either of those numbers (with varying levels of work, obviously)

Miahoo
06-29-2014, 10:41 PM
The actual reasoning behind my post was if you can hit 60 str reliably on a build, but could also hit 50 dex just as easily, that's a difference of 5pts of damage. Obviously some builds will hit so much higher than either of those numbers (with varying levels of work, obviously)

10% OC, ~30%THF line, not to mention the stuff unbon mention - stun is pretty much an instakill (not that insta, but u get the point).