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Justicesar
06-22-2014, 08:41 AM
My search fu is weak.. I can't seem to find a build that is strong in rogue skills and SWF. I will be TRing a rogue or Arti with the top tier gear and a lot of destinies capped. I will figure it out on my own, but appreciate any help.

cru121
06-22-2014, 09:24 AM
Well, you can always go Int-based. Among other things, it has the benefit of nice reflex save thanks to Insightful Reflexes, and, well, lot of skills. You get Int to damage from Swashbuckler's Different Tack.

I am eyeing the split Eth used on Lama, 12 / 6 ftr / 2 rogue (though he was using dex to damage). I've actually rolled a PDK test build, but I haven't done much with it yet. Important skills can be maxed even starting as a fighter.

Feats: 3xSWF, Precision, 2x Shield Mastery, ICrit, 3x bard meta (empower healing, extend, quicken).

AP: Stalwart for Stance and +20% HP; Swash for T5 stuff; rest as needed.

N-0cturn
06-22-2014, 03:45 PM
Well, you can always go Int-based. Among other things, it has the benefit of nice reflex save thanks to Insightful Reflexes, and, well, lot of skills. You get Int to damage from Swashbuckler's Different Tack.

I am eyeing the split Eth used on Lama, 12 / 6 ftr / 2 rogue (though he was using dex to damage). I've actually rolled a PDK test build, but I haven't done much with it yet. Important skills can be maxed even starting as a fighter.

Feats: 3xSWF, Precision, 2x Shield Mastery, ICrit, 3x bard meta (empower healing, extend, quicken).

AP: Stalwart for Stance and +20% HP; Swash for T5 stuff; rest as needed.

After testing it I advise against this split. Since Rage does not work with the defense stance you loose 6 Str from the Spell and Skaldic Rage. You can get 6 from the stance but that means that you will have to invest at least 23 AP in Stalwart Defender, which means you will have very few AP for WC and SS after the SB tree. Sure you could go Dex or Int to Damage but since you can always get a higher Str I Don't the reason. Maybe Dex if you want to have a 90+ reflex save.

In the end for me the gain from Stalwart was to little and the saves were really lacking. Going Dex based would help with the Reflex save, but the Will save would still be very low. If you want a SWF bard with Rogues skills I recommend 16 bard 2 rogue 2 FvS. Favored Soul gives you strong base saves, +3 saves vs spells for 4 AP and cheap access to divine might.

Best Race would be Human because you will need the bonus Feat and the extra Skillpoint. The only drawback is that it needs all stats except Wisdom, which means it is best done in a TR with access to at least +2 tomes. But since you mentioned you are TRing that should not be a problem.

I levelled this THF before U22 and had a blast although DPS in Epics was lacking when I was not in Divine Crusader or Legendary Dreadnought. However with Swashbuckler that problem disappeared. SWF + Divine Might = a lot of fun :) .

I only did a lesser TR into 12 / 6 ftr / 2 rogue because I wanted to level the Martial Destiny and had swapped out the Cleave Feats before. I also wanted to test it. Well it was a huge disappointment.

Chimeran1
06-22-2014, 11:28 PM
Well, you can always go Int-based. Among other things, it has the benefit of nice reflex save thanks to Insightful Reflexes, and, well, lot of skills. You get Int to damage from Swashbuckler's Different Tack.

I am eyeing the split Eth used on Lama, 12 / 6 ftr / 2 rogue (though he was using dex to damage). I've actually rolled a PDK test build, but I haven't done much with it yet. Important skills can be maxed even starting as a fighter.

Feats: 3xSWF, Precision, 2x Shield Mastery, ICrit, 3x bard meta (empower healing, extend, quicken).

AP: Stalwart for Stance and +20% HP; Swash for T5 stuff; rest as needed.

It works ok , but with the buckler you do lose a bit of dps. +1 per 5 character levels, though the hp and bonuses to player from buckler ( I used new epic 3 barrel cove one) work well for a " low blow" coupe de grace style.
Coupe de grace is awesome, so many powerful EE mobs die to it. Those demons in " between the rift" can crit hit you for over 500 dps, group members are more than happy to see a bard kite, fascinate and one shot those bastards back to hell :)
I am very happy with the 12/6/2 build maxed Charisma.
I did drop IC pierce , as I am using the level 23 raiders box " protector of kings "

Rull
06-23-2014, 01:53 AM
Assuming 16/2f/2r (7base 1human 3epic 2 fighter = 13 feats)

STR based (18/9/17/10/8/12)
SWF, iSWF, gSWF, iCrit
Maximize, EmpowerHeal, Quicken, Extend
PA, cleave, gCleave, OC
Excellence

OR

STR based (18/9/17/10/8/12)
SWF, iSWF, gSWF, iCrit
Maximize, EmpowerHeal, Quicken, Extend
Precision, ShieldMastery, iShieldMastery
Excellence, +????

OR

DEX based (12/18/16/10/8/12)
SWF, iSWF, gSWF, iCrit
Maximize, EmpowerHeal, Quicken, Extend
Precision, ShieldMastery, iShieldMastery
Excellence, epicReflex

then there are 3 more builds worth pointing out, with fvs instead of fighter for Divine Might instead of 2 feats:

16bard/1fvs/3rogue
STR based (18/8/16/10/8/16)
SWF, iSWF, gSWF, iCrit
Maximize, EmpowerHeal, Quicken
Precision, ShieldMastery, iShieldMastery
Excellence

OR

16bard/1fvs/3rogue
STR based (18/8/16/10/8/16)
SWF, iSWF, gSWF, iCrit
Maximize, EmpowerHeal, Quicken, Extend
Precision,
Excellence, +????

OR

16bard/1fvs/3rogue
STR based (18/8/16/10/8/16)
SWF, iSWF, gSWF, iCrit
EmpowerHeal, Quicken
PA, cleave, gCleave, OC
Excellence

and then there are fvs+fighter builds with no rogue, which I'll leave out since you asked for trap skills

cru121
06-23-2014, 03:26 AM
After testing it I advise against this split. Since Rage does not work with the defense stance you loose 6 Str from the Spell and Skaldic Rage. You can get 6 from the stance but that means that you will have to invest at least 23 AP in Stalwart Defender, which means you will have very few AP for WC and SS after the SB tree. Sure you could go Dex or Int to Damage but since you can always get a higher Str I Don't the reason. Maybe Dex if you want to have a 90+ reflex save.

In the end for me the gain from Stalwart was to little and the saves were really lacking. Going Dex based would help with the Reflex save, but the Will save would still be very low. If you want a SWF bard with Rogues skills I recommend 16 bard 2 rogue 2 FvS. Favored Soul gives you strong base saves, +3 saves vs spells for 4 AP and cheap access to divine might.

Best Race would be Human because you will need the bonus Feat and the extra Skillpoint. The only drawback is that it needs all stats except Wisdom, which means it is best done in a TR with access to at least +2 tomes. But since you mentioned you are TRing that should not be a problem.

I levelled this THF before U22 and had a blast although DPS in Epics was lacking when I was not in Divine Crusader or Legendary Dreadnought. However with Swashbuckler that problem disappeared. SWF + Divine Might = a lot of fun :) .

I only did a lesser TR into 12 / 6 ftr / 2 rogue because I wanted to level the Martial Destiny and had swapped out the Cleave Feats before. I also wanted to test it. Well it was a huge disappointment.
I don't know, the split worked for Eth, so it cannot be that abysmal. He was using Dex to damage, switching that to Int gives all the skills OP wanted and a very nice reflex save. Personally I love the benefits of the stalwart stance on my test build (25 PRR, 3 saves, +20% HP) for 14 AP; plus you get enough feats for the nice stuff.

Perhaps going Int based would be a better option for a new character, as it only requires 2 ability scores, INT and CON. (Well and 13 dex for precision and potentially some str for hitting, but with Precision it's not that important.)

N-0cturn
06-23-2014, 04:03 AM
I don't know, the split worked for Eth, so it cannot be that abysmal. He was using Dex to damage, switching that to Int gives all the skills OP wanted and a very nice reflex save. Personally I love the benefits of the stalwart stance on my test build (25 PRR, 3 saves, +20% HP) for 14 AP; plus you get enough feats for the nice stuff.

Perhaps going Int based would be a better option for a new character, as it only requires 2 ability scores, INT and CON. (Well and 13 dex for precision and potentially some str for hitting, but with Precision it's not that important.)

I did not say it's abysmal. But I did not feel like the gain from Fighter was worth it. I lost 14 Str (-12 Divine Might, -2 Inspire Excellence, -4 Scaldic Rage, -2 Rage Spell, +6 Stance), which means -14 damage for SWF. On a Dex or Int split this would not be an issue though. However it also did not feel much like playing a bard anymore, mostly because I had so little AP left for SS and WC. If I had not picked up Tier 4 in Stalwart I would have lost 20 Str.

Most of this would not be an issue on a dex/int build but on the other hand your dex/int will still be about 20 lower that on a 16/2/2 Str build with FvS. +3 to saves is nice, but the base save was already -3 for will/ref (+1 fort) and FvS gives +3 saves vs spells for 4 AP.

It still works but for me it felt like a step in the wrong direction.

Feithlin
06-23-2014, 11:18 AM
16bard/2fvs/2rogue
STR based (18/8/16/10/8/16)
SWF, iSWF, gSWF, iCrit
Maximize, EmpowerHeal, Quicken, Extend
Precision, ShieldMastery
Excellence


I would drop extend and get iSM on this one.

CThruTheEgo
06-23-2014, 11:21 AM
with the buckler you do lose a bit of dps. +1 per 5 character levels

This is incorrect. Buckler is the stronger choice for both dps and defense. For 2 feats and a twist buckler gets 15% doublestrike as well as 20 PRR and 10% dodge. Nothing in the offhand gets you only 10% doublestrike and +5 damage with the current level cap (will be +6 when the level cap is raised to 30). 5% doublestrike is much more dps than +5-6 damage per hit.

CThruTheEgo
06-23-2014, 11:22 AM
I would drop extend and get iSM on this one.

Agreed.

Rull
06-23-2014, 11:38 AM
This is incorrect. Buckler is the stronger choice for both dps and defense. For 2 feats and a twist buckler gets 15% doublestrike as well as 20 PRR and 10% dodge. Nothing in the offhand gets you only 10% doublestrike and +5 damage with the current level cap (will be +6 when the level cap is raised to 30). 5% doublestrike is much more dps than +5-6 damage per hit.

Even without feats it is close.

nothing:
5 damage and 10% doublestrike (from enhancements)
buckler:
10% dodge (from enhancements) + 10 seeker + 6% doublestike + some AC + 136 positive spellpower (from alchemical buckler). Especially the devotion is a huge bonus. Otherwise you would need to slot devotion in your weapon, losing out on 1d10 acid or a better ruby (or 120 devotion in your trinket, losing out on a trinket slot which is equally bad)

On the builds I listed without shield mastery, I advice on using a shield anyway (although this depends on gear choices)
So the fact that you can add feats to the second option is just nice.

CThruTheEgo
06-23-2014, 11:45 AM
Even without feats it is close.

nothing:
5 damage and 10% doublestrike (from enhancements)
buckler:
10% dodge (from enhancements) + 10 seeker + 6% doublestike + some AC + 136 positive spellpower (from alchemical buckler). Especially the devotion is a huge bonus. Otherwise you would need to slot devotion in your weapon, losing out on 1d10 acid or a better ruby (or 120 devotion in your trinket, losing out on a trinket slot which is equally bad)

On the builds I listed without shield mastery, I advice on using a shield anyway (although this depends on gear choices)
So the fact that you can add feats to the second option is just nice.

Sadly, unless the wiki is wrong, alchemical shields do not come as a buckler. As of now, we have 3 options for decent bucklers: Epic Swashbuckler from Crystal Cove, Kobold Admiral's Tiller, and Barnacled Buckler. That's it.

Rull
06-23-2014, 11:45 AM
I would drop extend and get iSM on this one.

That was the single hardest feat choice to make. I was considering posting another build option with just that.
Especially extended displacements are nice, and in practice recasting it often costs you a swing in combat.
Both feats are pretty good. I guess I'll change it.

Rull
06-23-2014, 11:52 AM
Sadly, unless the wiki is wrong, alchemical shields do not come as a buckler. As of now, we have 3 options for decent bucklers: Epic Swashbuckler from Crystal Cove, Kobold Admiral's Tiller, and Barnacled Buckler. That's it.

Wow, I think you're right. I ran LOB a couple times last week for nothing then. (I'd go with the barnacled for said redslot, but I'm happy with none of them)

That tips the scales in favor of empty-offhand in case you don't have the feats.
When you do have the two feats it is still a lot better to go with a buckler.