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maddmatt70
06-13-2014, 08:31 AM
I am not sure quite how it plays out, but I like the stats anyway for this build. Strength based legendary dreadnaught epic destiny. The character has no past lives epic or otherwise and decent gear so fully geared and past lived could have a lot more.

Human
Strength 68
Peform skill 84
Reflex Save 70 (will and fortitude are not very good)
Physical Resistance Rating 65
Dodge 20%
Incorpeality 10%
Hit Points 850-900.
Bard Songs: 25.
Positive Spell Power: 300ish.
Spell Points: 1300 (also epic spell storing ring and bauble).
Doublestrike: (? probably could be better).

Feats:
SWF (x3)
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Quicken
Empower Healing
Icrit Pierce
Overwhelming Critical
Inspire Excellence
Perfect Twf
Epic Skill Focus Perform

I think that strength based is the way to go because someone can without too much trouble get a 70+ reflex save and have a perform of 85ish for coupe.

CThruTheEgo
06-13-2014, 09:07 AM
Looks good. I'd consider dropping epic skill focus perform for perfect swf. I don't know what you've got included in your perform score already, but you might look into others to boost it if you want it higher than 81.


I think that strength based is the way to go because someone can without too much trouble get a 70+ reflex save and have a perform of 85ish for coupe.

I prefer charisma based with force of personality for a solid will save. The build in my sig ends up with a 60 cha so it isn't too far below what a str based build will get, and gets several other bard based benefits from high cha.

maddmatt70
06-13-2014, 09:15 AM
Looks good. I'd consider dropping epic skill focus perform for perfect swf. I don't know what you've got included in your perform score already, but you might look into others to boost it if you want it higher than 81.



I prefer charisma based with force of personality for a solid will save. The build in my sig ends up with a 60 cha so it isn't too far below what a str based build will get, and gets several other bard based benefits from high cha.

Hmm think that if I had better gear, past lives, etc. and the like that I could get a strength closer to 80 - its the divine might coupled with the skaldic rage and morale strength/ etc. Divine might is really the problem as long as divine might is how it is I would go strength based really it far outweighs any advantages for charisma. When the cap goes up to 30 I can fit in force of personaility which would give the build a 60+ will save as well.

CThruTheEgo
06-13-2014, 09:30 AM
Hmm think that if I had better gear, past lives, etc. and the like that I could get a strength closer to 80 - its the divine might coupled with the skaldic rage and morale strength/ etc. Divine might is really the problem as long as divine might is how it is I would go strength based really it far outweighs any advantages for charisma. When the cap goes up to 30 I can fit in force of personaility which would give the build a 60+ will save as well.

No doubt that a str based swashbuckler with divine might will reach a higher stat than a cha based build, but cha based does have some advantages. Whether those advantages are worth it or not depends on your priorities with the build. I wanted decent spell DCs on my build, for example.

The biggest advantage imo with a str based swashbuckler is that it's much more likely to fit in cleave/great cleave, which have excellent synergy with SWF as well as divine might str. You could certainly take them on a non-str build, but those builds will likely have other priorities and are less likely to fit them in.

maddmatt70
06-13-2014, 09:35 AM
No doubt that a str based swashbuckler with divine might will reach a higher stat than a cha based build, but cha based does have some advantages. Whether those advantages are worth it or not depends on your priorities with the build. I wanted decent spell DCs on my build, for example.

The biggest advantage imo with a str based swashbuckler is that it's much more likely to fit in cleave/great cleave, which have excellent synergy with SWF as well as divine might str. You could certainly take them on a non-str build, but those builds will likely have other priorities and are less likely to fit them in.

Right cleave/great cleave/ & overwhelming critical as well. I do not think that a bard can really get good enough spell dcs and still be a very melee focused build as well. A build could get high enough spell dcs and perhaps fit in the SWF feats, but I think that is really about it.

CThruTheEgo
06-13-2014, 10:02 AM
I do not think that a bard can really get good enough spell dcs and still be a very melee focused build as well. A build could get high enough spell dcs and perhaps fit in the SWF feats, but I think that is really about it.

That was exactly my goal with The Count of Monte Cristo in my sig. Have a look if you're interested. If by "very melee focused" you mean all out best of the best melee dps against both single and multiple targets, then you are right. My build doesn't have cleaves so it's lacking AoE dps, but it has other ways to deal with multiple targets.

Against single targets, though, the only feat I'm missing is overwhelming crit. But with the addition of legendary shield mastery I'll have 5% more doublestrike over a build that uses nothing in the offhand, and 15% more over a build that uses an orb. So I think this evens out.

Regarding will save spell DCs, admittedly I don't have the experience to know what is effective. But I've talked to several people about it and have consistently heard that 60 is the magic number. I can reach 60 with the right debuffs, which will simply require some smart playing.

So I think it's quite possible to have both solid melee and DCs on a bard. If it's not, I'll be updating my build when I find out for myself.

Nightmanis
06-13-2014, 10:22 AM
Depending on your setup and original stat spread you could viably fit the cleave feats on a max cha build. Start with 10 strength, and after level 11 you could use a +3 tome to qualify. Yes you miss out on overwhelming, and it does make your feat choices harder, but it could work out.

CThruTheEgo
06-13-2014, 10:31 AM
Depending on your setup and original stat spread you could viably fit the cleave feats on a max cha build. Start with 10 strength, and after level 11 you could use a +3 tome to qualify. Yes you miss out on overwhelming, and it does make your feat choices harder, but it could work out.

As I said, you can definitely fit them in. But a cha based build is likely to have other priorities and feats will be much tighter as a result. Without those other priorities, though, I would question the value of going cha based in the first place.

maddmatt70
06-13-2014, 12:33 PM
That was exactly my goal with The Count of Monte Cristo in my sig. Have a look if you're interested. If by "very melee focused" you mean all out best of the best melee dps against both single and multiple targets, then you are right. My build doesn't have cleaves so it's lacking AoE dps, but it has other ways to deal with multiple targets.

Against single targets, though, the only feat I'm missing is overwhelming crit. But with the addition of legendary shield mastery I'll have 5% more doublestrike over a build that uses nothing in the offhand, and 15% more over a build that uses an orb. So I think this evens out.

Regarding will save spell DCs, admittedly I don't have the experience to know what is effective. But I've talked to several people about it and have consistently heard that 60 is the magic number. I can reach 60 with the right debuffs, which will simply require some smart playing.

So I think it's quite possible to have both solid melee and DCs on a bard. If it's not, I'll be updating my build when I find out for myself.

60 is too low for EE endgame and you require debuffs to even reach that. You also have to wear gear for your spell dc which would be dps, etc. Your spell penetration is suspect as well. The reality is bard cc dc is more of an all or none proposition otherwise not worth the investment for souburst and discoball which will not land. When they update spellsinger that is when I would look to make a cc/nuking bard.

CThruTheEgo
06-13-2014, 12:47 PM
60 is too low for EE endgame and you require debuffs to even reach that. You also have to wear gear for your spell dc which would be dps, etc. Your spell penetration is suspect as well. The reality is bard cc dc is more of an all or none proposition otherwise not worth the investment for souburst and discoball which will not land. When they update spellsinger that is when I would look to make a cc/nuking bard.

You're the first to say that 60 is too low. The only gear required is the Sage's Mantle, cloak slot. I'll lose the Wolf Cloak, so 5 seeker, not a big deal. Spell pen is dumped but drow are the only ones where that's really an issue anyway, and for them there are other ways to CC.

As I said, I'll find out for myself once I get back to epics.

Rull
06-14-2014, 04:36 PM
I had it worked out with 2 fighter instead of 2 rogue, giving up on evasion after I heard the swashbucker didn't get the +12 reflex on tier5 after all.
Maximize and (improved) Precision are feats I really really like having.

But I'm still undecided. 2fighter 2fvs, 2rogue 2fvs and even 2rogue 2fighter are all options I'm considering.

maddmatt70
06-14-2014, 06:06 PM
I had it worked out with 2 fighter instead of 2 rogue, giving up on evasion after I heard the swashbucker didn't get the +12 reflex on tier5 after all.
Maximize and (improved) Precision are feats I really really like having.

But I'm still undecided. 2fighter 2fvs, 2rogue 2fvs and even 2rogue 2fighter are all options I'm considering.

Well I have a 70+ reflex save so I think it is worth it although it would be nice fitting in both shield mastery feats and legendary shield master twist which would be possible with two fighter. I am thinking if the cap goes up to 30 and they do not have a new nice feat picking up at shield mastery. I think a bigger concern then will saves is fort saves actually symbol of stunning/soundburst/etc. have to go with more spell absorption items.

Rull
06-16-2014, 07:34 AM
Well I have a 70+ reflex save so I think it is worth it although it would be nice fitting in both shield mastery feats and legendary shield master twist which would be possible with two fighter. I am thinking if the cap goes up to 30 and they do not have a new nice feat picking up at shield mastery. I think a bigger concern then will saves is fort saves actually symbol of stunning/soundburst/etc. have to go with more spell absorption items.

I probably agree. Would you mind breaking down that 70?

I'd definitly go for the survivability that Maximize offers before looking at the shield masteries. Sure my main healing comes from cocoon, but the ~450 cure crits certainly help out (especially keeping others alive on EE when my cocoon is on cooldown on myself)

And as for Precision; 25% fort bypass is pretty huge in my book. At least now that you get to 'keep' power attack since you get the same +5 damage on precision with Swash (I was having great results already with taking both PA and Precision on a fighter and switching to precision for undead; the bypass far outweighs the -5 dmg to them).
As a bonus, you not only get rid of the -5 Attack, but you get +5% attack instead. OK, that doesn't matter much, you attack will be fine*, but keep in mind that now that we hit for ~200ish, missing even once in every 100 swings starts to be significant.
*I have done but liimited testing on this, but in my experience i always miss on a 1, but also miss most of the time on a 2 and sometimes even on a 3. I cannot tell how much a +8 to hit extra would matter on that though.

but, I'm starting to fall back in love with evasion again so I might -reluctantly- give these up.

maddmatt70
06-16-2014, 09:04 PM
I probably agree. Would you mind breaking down that 70?

I'd definitly go for the survivability that Maximize offers before looking at the shield masteries. Sure my main healing comes from cocoon, but the ~450 cure crits certainly help out (especially keeping others alive on EE when my cocoon is on cooldown on myself)

And as for Precision; 25% fort bypass is pretty huge in my book. At least now that you get to 'keep' power attack since you get the same +5 damage on precision with Swash (I was having great results already with taking both PA and Precision on a fighter and switching to precision for undead; the bypass far outweighs the -5 dmg to them).
As a bonus, you not only get rid of the -5 Attack, but you get +5% attack instead. OK, that doesn't matter much, you attack will be fine*, but keep in mind that now that we hit for ~200ish, missing even once in every 100 swings starts to be significant.
*I have done but liimited testing on this, but in my experience i always miss on a 1, but also miss most of the time on a 2 and sometimes even on a 3. I cannot tell how much a +8 to hit extra would matter on that though.

but, I'm starting to fall back in love with evasion again so I might -reluctantly- give these up.

You can not do cleave, great cleave, momentum swing, and lay waste without power attack being on thus precision is not an option, but even so power attack and improved power attack from legendary dreadnaught destiny enhancement make up for precision really. If I am fighting undead I switch sense weakness with grim precision for twists. I think empower healing is plenty sufficient for healing in my opinion. My breakdown is base 10, +14 save heroic levels, +4 save epic levels, dexterity 10 (+2 base), +3 dex tome, +11 dexterity enhancement item, +2 dexterity ship buff, +1 reflex save from ship,+10 resistance item save,+4 parry item save, + 2 good luck item save, +8 reflex save from swashbuckler enhancement+6 reflex twist from magister, +4 greater heroism.

Rull
06-17-2014, 03:14 AM
You can not do cleave, great cleave, momentum swing, and lay waste without power attack being on thus precision is not an option, but even so power attack and improved power attack from legendary dreadnaught destiny enhancement make up for precision really. If I am fighting undead I switch sense weakness with grim precision for twists. I think empower healing is plenty sufficient for healing in my opinion. My breakdown is base 10, +14 save heroic levels, +4 save epic levels, dexterity 10 (+2 base), +3 dex tome, +11 dexterity enhancement item, +2 dexterity ship buff, +1 reflex save from ship,+10 resistance item save,+4 parry item save, + 2 good luck item save, +8 reflex save from swashbuckler enhancement+6 reflex twist from magister, +4 greater heroism.

Either I'm severly mistaking, or there is no base 10 for saves so that list adds up to 61. Or 55 plus whatever you want to add witb twists.

I was thinking twisting sense weakness, cocoon and reign. I'm not sure a sacrifice of 11,5dps of reign (~231 on a 20) can be justified with 6 reflex.
Now that I think about it, it's actually 23 damage per swing if you have perfect single weapon fighting.... certainly not giving that up.

Edit: excuse me, I realize the ability to twist 4/3/1 comes from EPL, so yeah magister is a fine twist without.

Rull
06-17-2014, 06:49 AM
I see you list Improved Critical as piercing, is there any specific reason for that? I was thinking handaxes were the clear favorite due to headman's chop.

N-0cturn
06-17-2014, 09:44 AM
I ran a 16 bard 2 FvS 2 Rogue - Staff wielding build before and changed it to SWF after U 22.

However I decided to drop PA, Cleave, Great Cleave and OC to make room for the SWF feats. Earlier today I did another Feat swap to add Shield Mastery and improved Shield Mastery. I am not 100% sure if it is worth it yet.

The reason is that even before I preferred Divine Crusader over Legendary Dreadnought because it fit's my own play-style. Blitz is great when you are racing the quest and there are some cases where I miss it, but overall Divine Crusader get's the job done without restricting my play-style. Strike Down and Consecration do enough AOE damage that I do not miss Cleave.

Aside from the difference in Feats/Destiny the numbers look correct. Reflex is about 70, fortitude and will about 40 for me, which can be problematic. I think it's definitely possible to push these to 50+ with a bit investment. Angelic Resistance from AoV helps as well.

Anyway I can guarantee you that the split is survivable and fun. I am not convinced that LD is worth it, but that more a personal opinion. The DPS in LD WILL be great.

Just one thing: I would drop Epic Skill Focus Perform for Perfect SWF or Lasting Inspiration. I am not sure why you think you need these +5 DC.

maddmatt70
06-17-2014, 03:24 PM
I see you list Improved Critical as piercing, is there any specific reason for that? I was thinking handaxes were the clear favorite due to headman's chop.

Well a couple of things on this. First the Balizarde is actually an expanded crit profile so from a critical standpoint the forged hand axes from update 21 are the same with headman's chop as the balizarde. Now those axes do have mortal fear which is a really nice ability for sure and an extra W or so. The thing is that I really like the defensive aspects of the balizarde: parry, good luck and dodge +8%. On this character I like the balizarde a little better.

maddmatt70
06-17-2014, 03:35 PM
Either I'm severly mistaking, or there is no base 10 for saves so that list adds up to 61. Or 55 plus whatever you want to add witb twists.

I was thinking twisting sense weakness, cocoon and reign. I'm not sure a sacrifice of 11,5dps of reign (~231 on a 20) can be justified with 6 reflex.
Now that I think about it, it's actually 23 damage per swing if you have perfect single weapon fighting.... certainly not giving that up.

Edit: excuse me, I realize the ability to twist 4/3/1 comes from EPL, so yeah magister is a fine twist without.

I have a 69-72 reflex depending on situation on live. That is a fact. I also get dodge from the magister twist as well. I like having quite a bit of surviveability in EE myself. Like I said earlier I wish I had a better fortitude and will save, but what have you.

N-0cturn
06-17-2014, 06:39 PM
Well a couple of things on this. First the Balizarde is actually an expanded crit profile so from a critical standpoint the forged hand axes from update 21 are the same with headman's chop as the balizarde. Now those axes do have mortal fear which is a really nice ability for sure and an extra W or so. The thing is that I really like the defensive aspects of the balizarde: parry, good luck and dodge +8%. On this character I like the balizarde a little better.

Balizarde is keen however, so you can always use it without improved critical piercing.

Regarding Ref Save: 70 is realistic with Unearthly Reactions and this not only gives +6 reflex but also 3% Dodge and tumbling through enemies, which has saved me a couple of times.