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Severlin
06-09-2014, 02:16 PM
UPDATE: There is a new thread that has more recent information on this topic.

Check it out here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446136-Armor-Up-Developer-Diary-1

(Edited based on player feedback.)

Greetings.

I wanted to jump in and talk about some upcoming changes we are working on.

We have been looking at player feedback and we wanted to make changes to the game to open up more templates and character types. We are currently fairly happy with the high end potential of casters and characters who wear no armor or light armor and use Evasion. These characters can kite and use magic to do fairly well in our content.

The characters that seem to be falling behind are the heavily armored characters. Part of the problem is that they can’t use Evasion, and part of the problem is that armor doesn’t really offer that much more armor class than robes or light armor. We have been discussing this a lot lately.

We don’t want to hurt Evasion builds. We would rather bring the mitigation of armor and shields to those levels. Our only caveat is we don’t want Evasion builds to be able to reach the highest levels of physical mitigation on top of their existing defenses.

Here are some of the changes we are considering.

Physical Resist Rating
The first change is to prepare Physical Resist Rating for use in the armor changes. The formula for the rating will change to the following formula, with the resulting multiplier applied to all physical damage.

150 / (150 + PRR)

This progression follows the current formula very closely out to 300 and then this formula is more generous at those higher end values.

As examples, a PRR of 50 would offer a damage multiplier of 0.75, a PRR of 100 would offer a damage multiplier of 0.6, and a PRR of 200 would offer a damage multiplier of 0.4285.

Magical Resist Rating
In addition, we are adding a new value called Magical Resist Rating. The formula for the rating will be the same as for PRR, with the resulting multiplier applied to all magical damage.

150 / (150 + PRR)

This new rating will apply to most non-physical damage sources including spells, elemental damage, poisons, lingering damage, and similar effects.

It is our intention that existing magical items that provide PRR would also provide MRR.



Armor and Ratings
Armor now has a base level of mitigation through these ratings. Unenchanted armor has Physical Resist Rating as part of its mitigation, and once armor has an enchantment of at least +1 value it also gains Magical Resist Rating.

The value armor depends on the class of the armor.

Robes or Outfits: No PRR, no MRR
Light Armor: 15 PRR, 15 MRR if armor has enchantments.
Medium Armor: 30 PRR, 30 MRR if armor has enchantments.
Heavy Armor: 45 PRR, 45 MRR if armor has enchantments.

Shields will give additional PRR and, if enchanted, MRR.

Buckler: None
Light Shield: 5 PRR, 5 MRR if shield has enchantments.
Heavy Shield: 10 PRR, 10 MRR if shield has enchantments.
Tower Shield: 15 PRR, 15 MRR if shield has enchantments.

In addition, characters who are proficient with shields can also use the larger shields for defense against magical attacks that would normally require a Reflex saving throw. Instead of (or in addition to) using your Reflex saving throw to mitigate the damage you can deflect the damage off your shield. This is represented by increasing your Physical and Magical Resist Ratings against those types of attacks when using a shield. Note that you gain this additional mitigation whether you make your Reflex saving throw or not.

Physical and Magical Resist Rating multiplier against magical attacks that normally allow a Reflex saving throw.

Buckler: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Light Shield: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Heavy Shield: 2.0
Tower Shield: 2.0

This means that characters with heavier armor and/or heavy or tower shields have an alternate mitigation against large area of effect attacks to help them compete in high level content with characters who use Evasion.

As an example, let’s take the case of a character built today to use heavy armor and tower shield and maximize PRR. Assuming a character had a PPR rating of 200 previously they would have a damage multiplier of ~ .4370 to physical damage.

While this mitigation is decent, characters built this way tend to die quickly once effects like Fireballs and dragon’s breath are flying around the battlefield.

Under the new system they would have a PRR and MRR of 260 which would translate to a damage multiplier of .4285 for both physical and magical damage. Against area of effect attacks (magic requiring a Reflex saving throw) this would be increased to 520, which translates to .2238.

In this example, when the heavily armored and shielded character is hit by dragon’s breath for 500 damage it would be reduced by his/her enchanted armor and shield down to 112. Meanwhile characters in light or no armor could use Evasion to attempt to negate the damage entirely.

Resist Rating Caps and Evasion
In addition, there are new or changed caps on certain scores based on the armor you are wearing.

Note that Medium and Heavy armor will continue to negate the Evasion feat.

In addition, some shields will negate the Evasion feat.

Buckler: None
Light Shield: None
Heavy Shield: No Evasion feat
Tower Shield: No Evasion feat

PRR and MRR Cap for armor (tentative, work in progress)

Robes or Outfit: -/100
Light Armor: -/200
Medium Armor: No cap
Heavy Armor: No cap

Note that we have designed this so characters cannot gain both Evasion and the shield bonus coupled with high levels of resistance rating. This is intentional. If you see a hole in our design that allows for this please warn us!

But DPS is terrible when using a shield!
We intend to give characters who use weapon and shield additional options.

~ The Stalwart Defender and the Sacred Defender will offer enhancement options as alternates to the shield based enhancements. The enhancements that current require shields will be changed into a multi-selector, with an additional option that requires medium or heavy armor.

~ The Paladin class has fallen behind beyond the second level so we plan to look at some more compelling reasons to advance in that class.

~ We plan to introduce two new trees for shield use. The Vanguard tree will be focused on DPS while using a weapon and shield. This DPS will come from a combination of weapon damage and shield bashes. The Shieldbearer tree will be a mitigation tree that will focus on heavy armor and shield. This will also offer ways to counter enemies with active mitigation such as stuns, knock downs, and the like. These trees would be available to Fighter, Paladin and perhaps even a new class that supported heavy armor and martial abilities.

What other changes do you plan?

~ The to hit values of creatures in Epic Elite content would be rebalanced so high Armor Class builds will have some mitigation.

Sev~

Retired_Old_Gamer
06-09-2014, 02:24 PM
~ We plan to introduce two new trees for shield use. The Vanguard tree will be focused on DPS while using a weapon and shield. This DPS will come from a combination of weapon damage and shield bashes. The Shieldbearer tree will be a mitigation tree that will focus on heavy armor and shield. This will also offer ways to counter enemies with active mitigation such as stuns, knock downs, and the like. These trees would be available to Fighter, Paladin and perhaps even a new class that supported heavy armor and martial abilities.

What other changes do you plan?

~ The to hit values of creatures in Epic Elite content would be re-balanced so high Armor Class builds will have some mitigation.

Sev~

OUTSTANDING

Introducing vanguard is a cavalier approach, Will you be using the dex factors as well?

*in red* that alone will solve many conflicts.

Thanks for letting us know we are being heard.

Battlehawke
06-09-2014, 02:26 PM
Definitely some good ideas and a step in the right direction.

However,

Why can't a light Armored Evasion build be given the MRR ability with a Shield? They are clearly taking some hit in DPS to hold a shield. Maybe give it a very small chance. I think this will swing the balance entirely too far .

Traps should be given more impact now. For more balance....

Livmo
06-09-2014, 02:36 PM
Just wanted to give a a shout out that clerics wear heavy armor too, i.e. my Sun Elf Morninglord. Got full plate with the starter gear. I will Embrace the Spider Queen (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Embrace_of_the_Spider_Queen) soon :D

Raiderone
06-09-2014, 02:42 PM
Very nice news indeed. I like the idea of changing the defender trees to Medium/Heavy based and not based on shields. May cause some grief, but we've all replaced armor before.
a way to break down armor would be nice for partial return or majority return would be nice.

an automatic roll to block effects would work too. and attack rating automatically calculated for sword n board...to lesser extent of twf...

onny
06-09-2014, 02:42 PM
[QUOTE=Battlehawke;5351227]Definitely some good ideas and a step in the right direction.

However,

Why can't a light Armored Evasion build be given the MRR ability with a Shield? [QUOTE]

In his setup they can. MRR/PRR will be limited by armor choice. Shields (buckler and light) will impose no limits. Heavy and tower prevent evasion. so a rogue could equip a light shield and light armor and get 200 PRR/MRR with evasion.

That means they will take less then 50% of the damage they would take from a failed improved evasion save. That sounds pretty fair. considering even with 550 from a tower shield your taking 22% (vs about 24% from improved evasion plus max MRR with light armor). Looks good to me...

Tanks should take consistent damage so they can be consistently healed.

Erdrique
06-09-2014, 02:45 PM
This definitely a step in the right direction. It definitely gives more of focus to actually use the heavier armors and shields (which is the type of character I like to play). I'm just hoping that the values are high enough to allow the a traditional tank to stand toe-to-toe in epic elite content. We'll see.

Lauf
06-09-2014, 02:45 PM
One thing I suggest you consider is broadening the gap between the defense medium / heavy armors provide from that of the light ones, and by the same token increase the gap between the tower shield and the large shield.

as it stands today, there's no shortage of people going for evasion S&B builds, getting both evasion and a fairly high PRR/AC
increasing the gap would serve to help those that do use medium armor (barbs bards & fvs) instead of making them fools if they don't go for light + evasion.
and the same goes for those using tower shields, severely capping their dex. these limitations do not exist on large shields, making the large shield a better defensive option than the tower in some (most?) cases

Bridge_Dweller
06-09-2014, 02:50 PM
~ The to hit values of creatures in Epic Elite content would be rebalanced so high Armor Class builds will have some mitigation.

Sev~

Place take a look at some of the ACs monks are hitting without even trying.

Ovrad
06-09-2014, 02:51 PM
Under the new system they would have a PRR and MRR of 260 which would translate to a damage multiplier of .4285 for both physical and magical damage. Against area of effect attacks (magic requiring a Reflex saving throw) this would be increased to 520, which translates to .2238.

This sounds insanely powerful. Now only does it reduces the damage of all spells that have no saves (which there is LOT of), but it completely negates Peak damage. Peak damage is something dodge/evasion will have to bear through, even if they can negate completely a few hits, if you get unlucky and fail your rolls you can take crazy amounts of damage rapidly, and it's completely unpredictable. Having the heavier guys have a flat damage reduction to both physical AND magical damage makes them incredibly more survivable and easier to heal.

I'm not a fan of how one style is 100% reliable and the other one is a constant gamble. While running EE, the choice will be obvious: go heavy or go home.

Battlehawke
06-09-2014, 02:52 PM
[QUOTE=Battlehawke;5351227]Definitely some good ideas and a step in the right direction.

However,

Why can't a light Armored Evasion build be given the MRR ability with a Shield? QUOTE]

In his setup they can. MRR/PRR will be limited by armor choice. Shields (buckler and light) will impose no limits. Heavy and tower prevent evasion. so a rogue could equip a light shield and light armor and get 100 PRR/MRR


True, but they should not have to lose Evasion with a Heavy or Tower. It has been this way for 6 years....and reduces their defense tremendously when tanking. Rogue splash tanks, that is..

Krell
06-09-2014, 02:53 PM
Nice to see the direction of these changes. I look forward to dusting off a character and trying them out.

Battlehawke
06-09-2014, 02:57 PM
This sounds insanely powerful. Now only does it reduces the damage of all spells that have no saves (which there is LOT of), but it completely negates Peak damage. Peak damage is something dodge/evasion will have to bear through, even if they can negate completely a few hits, if you get unlucky and fail your rolls you can take crazy amounts of damage rapidly, and it's completely unpredictable. Having the heavier guys have a flat damage reduction to both physical AND magical damage makes them incredibly more survivable and easier to heal.

I'm not a fan of how one style is 100% reliable and the other one is a constant gamble. While running EE, the choice will be obvious: go heavy or go home.

....this makes a lot of sense...

kmoustakas
06-09-2014, 03:08 PM
I for one am glad to see that steps are being taken to enhance our gaming experience

Retired_Old_Gamer
06-09-2014, 03:09 PM
What if any changes are planned for Mithril, especially named mithril.

maddong
06-09-2014, 03:16 PM
Awesome! And all my chars currently wear robes.

CeltEireson
06-09-2014, 03:17 PM
This sounds insanely powerful. Now only does it reduces the damage of all spells that have no saves (which there is LOT of), but it completely negates Peak damage. Peak damage is something dodge/evasion will have to bear through, even if they can negate completely a few hits, if you get unlucky and fail your rolls you can take crazy amounts of damage rapidly, and it's completely unpredictable. Having the heavier guys have a flat damage reduction to both physical AND magical damage makes them incredibly more survivable and easier to heal.

I'm not a fan of how one style is 100% reliable and the other one is a constant gamble. While running EE, the choice will be obvious: go heavy or go home.

There are options for those with evasion to not fail on a 1 - epic feat and its an option in a couple of the epic destinies from memory.

As for the MRR - maybe needs toned down a bit but lets face it there aren't that many in epic elites that don't use an evasion build of some sort with the possibly exception of casters. Don't think current enhancements that boost PRR should automatically boost MRR as well, might be an idea to keep them separate or a choice of one or other in the trees.

I assume that any resists etc will apply before MRR is applied, otherwise you could end up with situations where shield tanks are taking no damage whatsoever from spells, probably not in epic elite but in epic hard/normal possibly.

Also in terms of future balance - you have evasion builds that can be designed to avoid most magic completely except on failed saves, you have armour wearers who can dramatically reduce damage by MRR, soooo what about mages? If you start building quests with the assumption most builds have some sort of damage mitigation, then pure casters may find it awkward to stay alive unless youre expecting everyone to go for tin cans for casters ;)

The main sticking point is non-reflex save magic damage, although admittedly most spells cast at players that do a lot of damage do tend to be AOEs. For spells with some element of no save damage, or will/fortitude save for reduced damage, evasion obviously doesn't help but from the looks of it this will still be reduced by MRR? If so evasion characters are going to be at a disadvantage compared to heavy armour users.

dunklezhan
06-09-2014, 03:19 PM
The MRR is too **** high!

Suggest halving it, and not letting shields double it. Fine with the PRR and relevant multiplier. Armour stops physical damage very well. That works for me.

But giving all that 'vs magic' "DR" automatically just for it being a +1 breastplate and +2 tower shield? Surely not.

How about:

For every + on the armour or shield, it gets 10% the PRR as MRR? (values add together, calculation then done on total). So:

+5 armour is MRR equal to 50% of the armour's PRR (in line with my initial suggestion),
+5 armour and +5 shield gets you 50% the PRR of the armour plus 50% the PRR of the shield - which is of course not doubling your overall MRR, but certainly adding to the main value upon which the calculation is then made.
+6 and up gear, being epic, can then go higher than that until a theoretical +10 armour and shield tops it out at 'equal to PRR' on both?


This would seem a more balanced way to do this. I like the MRR concept, but I don't think magical defenses should quite be "all in" just for having any old piece of magic armour.


Edit: actually question re shields doubling the figures. Did you mean only during shield block? If so I retract my comment about doubling the protection. If it happens only during shield block I am 100% in favour of that particular mechanic, but still not at all on board with with the initial MRR = PRR 'just because its got a +1 on it'.

TeacherSyn
06-09-2014, 03:19 PM
Place take a look at some of the ACs monks are hitting without even trying.

AC is the simplest way to mitigate damage, but this change doesn't talk of AC, only PRR and MRR.

Monks in the know can gain high AC because of the benefits of the Monk's Earth Stance (up to a general 20% to all AC) that stacks with Combat Expertise (10%) for a stacking 30% to all AC. WIS and DEX also contribute, both important stats. But again, AC is an oranges and apples comparison here; many melees have very high AC to many Monks yet still have serious problems, thus this change.

The Shintao Monk gains some PRR training as a light tanker but also has Improved Evasion and the best saves of any class except Paladin. They are also prolific self-healers. They will not gain the better PRR mitigation effects as described here since there are limits to what can be added by items, as robes and outfits have no PRR.

A Monk's saving throws and miss-chance effects (http://ddowiki.com/page/Miss_chance) are their "armor," which is why the PRR change is coming to give Fighters more magic defense to go with a more beneficial PRR benefit and, still, AC. Likewise, Monks have high spell resistance that (with Evasion) also allows them to look at Fireballs and laugh while also resisting non-damaging spells such as holds. Fighters would like a little love, too, against magic. Otherwise they'll continue to be a "Superman" that goes owned by the first mind-controller that shows up with a Fascinate spell. ('Tis a comic book reference.)

I like the change as it should really help the armored people be protected and not just look like they're protected, especially against magic, while not changing the Evasion balance that unarmored or lightly-armored people enjoy and use. AC, PRR and MRR should compare to AC, Miss chance and Spell Resistance.

The only people that might be annoyed are those who like to mix and max the soon-exclusive worlds of high Evasion, shielding and armor. The Rangers and Rogues and Druids should be fine and aren't penalized here, which is good.

Satyriasys
06-09-2014, 03:34 PM
Greetings.


This looks really great. I knew you guys would come around eventually. ;)

I would even reduce the PRR and MRR Cap on light and cloth armor a bit more than the 100 and 200 you posted.

Dragon.Star
06-09-2014, 03:40 PM
Very nice changes and looks to bring some balance back to the game that has been sorely missed for a while.

Severlin
06-09-2014, 03:46 PM
Ovrad talks about Peak damage, which we also call damage spikes. The design here is some builds will have higher total mitigation and have to deal with more damage spikes (Evasion builds with high Armor Class and Dodge) and some builds will take more overall damage but have a more predictable damage curve (Heavy Armor builds.)

~ The characters these changes benefit already have lower Reflex saves and thus are taking a lot of extra damage out of the gate.

~ The Evasion builds with high Dodge will have more severe damage spikes, but overall damage will still be lower thus conserving healing spell points *if* the healer can keep them alive during the spikes.

~ If we significantly reduced the MRR of this proposal heavy armor would simply not be as valuable as Evasion + high Reflex. We love our Evasion builds, but we do want other options that can compete in tough content.

Sev~

Qhualor
06-09-2014, 03:47 PM
I notice you didn't talk about DR, namely barbarian. Any possible changes coming for them too? I have lots of ideas on that.

bbqzor
06-09-2014, 03:50 PM
I wanted to jump in and talk about some upcoming changes we are working on.
Does that mean they are subject to extensive change? Or is this more of a "here it is, we might alter it slightly, but GL" notice?


We have been looking at player feedback and we wanted to make changes to the game to open up more templates and character types.
Apologies for caps but: DO NOT CONFUSE CHARACTER TYPES WITH EFFORT INTO CHARACTER. There are plenty of heavy armor guys which can clear 250+ ac and 200 prr now, and they do just fine when properly kitted out with absorbs etc. This change isnt targeting new character types... its targeting characters without as much work put into them. It is lowering the bar for those builds to survive harder content. You are not reinventing the wheel, you are making the road smoother. Is this your intent?


The characters that seem to be falling behind are the heavily armored characters
"which dont have a lot of effort (past lives, gear, smart builds, etc)" is how that sentence should have ended. People who think slapping on heavy armor and a shield and getting 120 ac should mean they can run around invincible in EE are operating under a faulty set of beliefs. I'm rather tired of people comparing their non-optimal few past life "tank" to 10+ past lives evasion guys thinking it should be fair. Be EXTREMELY CLEAR with what exactly you are targeting here.


Part of the problem is that they can’t use Evasion, and part of the problem is that armor doesn’t really offer that much more armor class than robes or light armor.
Yes, but remember that heavy armor is NOT a replacement for evasion. Evasion is a feature it takes multiple levels to achieve, and then has a lot of restrictions to apply. And it only works on some attacks, some of the time. By contrast heavy armor is available for a single level, or even a feat for those who dont wish to spend a level. It is very accessible and works 100% of the time. And with these changes, it now works on 100% of attacks. The bar to get heavy armor is very low. The bar to apply heavy armor is now very low. This is too much "easy mode" too readily available.


We don’t want to hurt Evasion builds. We would rather bring the mitigation of armor and shields to those levels.
Why the heck should heavy armor/shields mitigate AE damage exactly as well as evasion? I mean I can understand improving it, but this is a flawed design goal.


Our only caveat is we don’t want Evasion builds to be able to reach the highest levels of physical mitigation on top of their existing defenses.
Again, what the heck. So the goal is to have heavy armor be brought up equal to evasion, and then lock evasion out of the highest defense? How is that sane.


Here are some of the changes we are considering.
Again, I hope this means "subject to extensive change" because man are you guys off the mark.



Physical Resist Rating
The first change is to prepare Physical Resist Rating for use in the armor changes. The formula for the rating will change to the following formula, with the resulting multiplier applied to all physical damage.
150 / (150 + PRR)
This progression follows the current formula very closely out to 300 and then this formula is more generous at those higher end values.
The new formula is probably okay from my examination and comparison of the numbers. However, focusing to reward such extreme values seems of little benefit. It encourages mudflation while leaving most of your player base where they are now. This can only mean a heralding of increasing sources of PRR, or values of existing PRR. Both of which are a mistake. It will create more imbalance for the majority of players who are not focused on "maxing out" PRR.


Magical Resist Rating
In addition, we are adding a new value called Magical Resist Rating. The formula for the rating will be the same as for PRR, with the resulting multiplier applied to all magical damage.
150 / (150 + PRR)
This new rating will apply to most non-physical damage sources including spells, elemental damage, poisons, lingering damage, and similar effects.
It is our intention that existing magical items that provide PRR would also provide MRR.
What the heck. All you are doing is inflating the mobs numbers, and then deflating it on the players end. How about you just lower the mob damage on EE? This is overly complicated and unwanted. I guess just imagine that in 100pt font or something... its cumbersome and not wanted. At all.


Armor and Ratings
Armor now has a base level of mitigation through these ratings. Unenchanted armor has Physical Resist Rating as part of its mitigation, and once armor has an enchantment of at least +1 value it also gains Magical Resist Rating.
The value armor depends on the class of the armor.
Robes or Outfits: No PRR, no MRR
Light Armor: 15 PRR, 15 MRR if armor has enchantments.
Medium Armor: 30 PRR, 30 MRR if armor has enchantments.
Heavy Armor: 45 PRR, 45 MRR if armor has enchantments.
Does this replace the current BAB/PRR portion that armor contributes to the formula? That is critical when commenting here. But suffice it to say that something like this is what you SHOULD be doing, not all the other insane rewriting of game mechanics (yet again). Armor should be a large portion of PRR. Right now, its not. With this change, its still not (but its better than it is). I might suggest more here, depending upon your response on the BAB front.


Shields will give additional PRR and, if enchanted, MRR.
Buckler: None
Light Shield: 5 PRR, 5 MRR if shield has enchantments.
Heavy Shield: 10 PRR, 10 MRR if shield has enchantments.
Tower Shield: 15 PRR, 15 MRR if shield has enchantments.
Okay, but giving bucklers nothing is a mistake. They should count as light shields here, as they do for most of the shield feats. You dont want people taking feats in one area and missing out in another. Feats are an expensive investment, there is no reason mechanics following their inclusion should not reflect that.


In addition, characters who are proficient with shields can also use the larger shields for defense against magical attacks that would normally require a Reflex saving throw. Instead of (or in addition to) using your Reflex saving throw to mitigate the damage you can deflect the damage off your shield. This is represented by increasing your Physical and Magical Resist Ratings against those types of attacks when using a shield. Note that you gain this additional mitigation whether you make your Reflex saving throw or not.
Physical and Magical Resist Rating multiplier against magical attacks that normally allow a Reflex saving throw.
Buckler: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Light Shield: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Heavy Shield: 2.0
Tower Shield: 2.0
This means that characters with heavier armor and/or heavy or tower shields have an alternate mitigation against large area of effect attacks to help them compete in high level content with characters who use Evasion.
What the heck? I feel like a broken record. You do realize that all these changes are going to make fighters (or clerics or whatever) effectively no-fail evasion characters? I mean have you played DDO? Im sorry if that sounds insulting but I am seriously questioning the amount of game time you have logged if you think this is going to work in reality the way its presented here.


As an example, let’s take the case of a character built today to use heavy armor and tower shield and maximize PRR. Assuming a character had a PPR rating of 200 previously they would have a damage multiplier of ~ .4370 to physical damage.
While this mitigation is decent, characters built this way tend to die quickly once effects like Fireballs and dragon’s breath are flying around the battlefield.
Of course they would... your "example" has a character who invested in defense in one area, and then is facing a different kind of attack. Duh. How about an example where "a rogue with evasion has a reflex save of 100, but tends to die quickly once effects like a giant with a club are swarming around the battlefield". Does that mean evasion should apply a chance to evade club swings? No, of course not. This is just not even remotely a fair baseline case. Terrible.


Under the new system they would have a PRR and MRR of 260 which would translate to a damage multiplier of .4285 for both physical and magical damage. Against area of effect attacks (magic requiring a Reflex saving throw) this would be increased to 520, which translates to .2238.

In this example, when the heavily armored and shielded character is hit by dragon’s breath for 500 damage it would be reduced by his/her enchanted armor and shield down to 112. Meanwhile characters in light or no armor could use Evasion to attempt to negate the damage entirely.
And if you think being auto hit for 112 is somehow comparable to being able to evade that 500 point hit, even if the evasion is almost guaranteed, you simply dont know much about MMOs. This is way overpowered.


Resist Rating Caps, Dodge Caps, and Evasion
In addition, there are new or changed caps on certain scores based on the armor you are wearing.
Dodge Cap for armor and shields
Robes or Outfit: 25%
Light Armor: 20%
Medium Armor: 10% and no Evasion feat
Heavy Armor: 5% and no Evasion feat
These cap values can be increased with abilities or enhancements as they can today.
Okay, this is actually not a bad change... but it does somewhat affect contemporary itemization. Might I suggest adding Dodge Augments in the future (or at least a named dodge augment, with like 4% heroic and 8% epic version). That will help adjustment here, as players can better access combinations which support this new direction.


Buckler: None
Light Shield: None
Heavy Shield: No Evasion feat
Tower Shield: No Evasion feat
Lol you trollin'? Seriously? After forcing everyone to use heavy shields to defensive stance, you are now screwing them for using heavy shields. Totally unnecessary. Just allow evasion with heavy shields like it has been for, oh I dont know, THE WHOLE EXISTENCE OF DDO. Lol.


PRR and MRR Cap for armor
Robes or Outfit: 100
Light Armor: 200
Medium Armor: No cap
Heavy Armor: No cap
Uh.. ouch. You need to adjust the caps here. Robes/Outfits needs to be at least 150, to accommodate current characters without nerf. The rest of the table is okay, but punishing robe/outfit guys like that is pretty underhanded after instituting the old system and the epic past life system. Its not necessary.


Note that we have designed this so characters cannot gain both Evasion and the shield bonus coupled with high levels of resistance rating. This is intentional. If you see a hole in our design that allows for this please warn us!
Consider most of my (admittedly caustic) commentary as a warning for adjustment. The concept (at least, what I think was the motive behind the concept) isn't wrong per se... but you definitely appear to suffer from a "noobs eyes" insofar as how this is going to play out once it hits live, especially in regards to people actually investing into the current paradigm. You can adjust it without screwing over players actually playing your game.


But DPS is terrible when using a shield!
We intend to give characters who use weapon and shield additional options.

~ The Stalwart Defender and the Sacred Defender will no longer be shield based trees. Instead, the enhancements that current require shields will be changed to require medium or heavy armor.

~ The Paladin class has fallen behind beyond the second level so we plan to look at some more compelling reasons to advance in that class.

~ We plan to introduce two new trees for shield use. The Vanguard tree will be focused on DPS while using a weapon and shield. This DPS will come from a combination of weapon damage and shield bashes. The Shieldbearer tree will be a mitigation tree that will focus on heavy armor and shield. This will also offer ways to counter enemies with active mitigation such as stuns, knock downs, and the like. These trees would be available to Fighter, Paladin and perhaps even a new class that supported heavy armor and martial abilities.

I dont wholly agree with these, but will reserve feedback for when such things actually show up for feedback.


What other changes do you plan?
~ The to hit values of creatures in Epic Elite content would be rebalanced so high Armor Class builds will have some mitigation.
If you think the problem with epic is the mobs "to hit" and not its "damage" (both physical and spell/trap), you are doing it wrong.

Not sure what else to say... I feel like I just got my lunch money taken. Maybe you can post a new version of this which isnt as disgusting soon. Thanks.

BOgre
06-09-2014, 03:50 PM
This feels like yet another pendulum swing. Yesterday must have Evasion, tomorrow must have Armor. Add to that the Dodge Cap nerf and you're seriously nerfing all the "middle" classes between pyjamas and fullpates. Light/Medium Armor builds will suffer.

Leave Dodge Cap as is and reduce the power of MRR and you may have something.

TPICKRELL
06-09-2014, 03:52 PM
Greetings.
...
~ The to hit values of creatures in Epic Elite content would be rebalanced so high Armor Class builds will have some mitigation.

Sev~

I support the ideas behind these changes for heavy armor.

But we need more information on the to-hit changes in EE. What do you consider high Armor Class builds and how much mitigation are we talking about.

The changes you suggested are a good change for EE heavy armor mob and I'm all for them. MRR coupled with the multipliers in the example look to strong to me. Automatically turning 1000 pt damage spells into 200 pts or less of actual damage pretty well trivializes EE damage spells (and makes most EH mob spells irrelevant).

However these changes still leave a large hole for Robe/Light armor up close and personal melee (i.e. not ranged, not caster). While Evasion is a very powerful feat, it does absolutely nothing to mitigate the 200 points a swing that many EE mobs inflict. Unless AC at an achievable level brings meaningful mitigation this still leaves a large problem for up close melee who are in light armor or robes.

If EE mob to-hit AND DC's are rebalanced sufficiently in conjunction with these changes (and the proposed changes in the separate pally thread) then I'm all behind this. If not, its just inverting the power curve so that Heavy armor is far ahead of light armor and robes.

Scraap
06-09-2014, 03:58 PM
Heavy Shield: No Evasion feat
Tower Shield: No Evasion feat
~ The Stalwart Defender and the Sacred Defender will no longer be shield based trees. Instead, the enhancements that current require shields will be changed to require medium or heavy armor.
~ The Paladin class has fallen behind beyond the second level so we plan to look at some more compelling reasons to advance in that class.
~ We plan to introduce two new trees for shield use. The Vanguard tree will be focused on DPS while using a weapon and shield. This DPS will come from a combination of weapon damage and shield bashes. The Shieldbearer tree will be a mitigation tree that will focus on heavy armor and shield. This will also offer ways to counter enemies with active mitigation such as stuns, knock downs, and the like. These trees would be available to Fighter, Paladin and perhaps even a new class that supported heavy armor and martial abilities.
Sev~

Well, that pretty much blows up my S&B Evasion tank completely. Goes from Sub-optional damage output traded for decent all around mitigation to nonfunctional entirely due to loosing the PRE. Glad I didn't shell out for PDK for that. ohwait.

Krelar
06-09-2014, 04:00 PM
In addition, characters who are proficient with shields can also use the larger shields for defense against magical attacks that would normally require a Reflex saving throw. Instead of (or in addition to) using your Reflex saving throw to mitigate the damage you can deflect the damage off your shield. This is represented by increasing your Physical and Magical Resist Ratings against those types of attacks when using a shield. Note that you gain this additional mitigation whether you make your Reflex saving throw or not.


Is this going to be an "always on" ability as long as you are holding a shield or a "while actively blocking" ability? (HINT: If it's only while blocking it's time to start over)

Monkey_Archer
06-09-2014, 04:00 PM
This looks really great. I knew you guys would come around eventually. ;)

I would even reduce the PRR and MRR Cap on light and cloth armor a bit more than the 100 and 200 you posted.

I agree with this. It seems very generous towards unarmored, and the 200 cap doesn't really make much sense considering even getting to 100 PRR is somewhat difficult in light armor. Either that or add some extra incentive to wear light armor.

Severlin
06-09-2014, 04:03 PM
Is this going to be an "always on" ability as long as you are holding a shield or a "while actively blocking" ability? (HINT: If it's only while blocking it's time to start over)

Always on.

Sev~

Severlin
06-09-2014, 04:04 PM
Well, that pretty much blows up my S&B Evasion tank completely. Goes from Sub-optional damage output traded for decent all around mitigation to nonfunctional entirely due to loosing the PRE. Glad I didn't shell out for PDK for that. ohwait.

I'd love a PM about the details, and how much you'd sacrifice by swapping to a Medium shield.

Sev~

Bridge_Dweller
06-09-2014, 04:05 PM
If not, its just inverting the power curve so that Heavy armor is far ahead of light armor and robes.

Heavy armor SHOULD be better.

Thar
06-09-2014, 04:14 PM
Greetings.

I wanted to jump in and talk about some upcoming changes we are working on.

We have been looking at player feedback and we wanted to make changes to the game to open up more templates and character types. We are currently fairly happy with the high end potential of casters and characters who wear no armor or light armor and use Evasion. These characters can kite and use magic to do fairly well in our content.

The characters that seem to be falling behind are the heavily armored characters. Part of the problem is that they can’t use Evasion, and part of the problem is that armor doesn’t really offer that much more armor class than robes or light armor. We have been discussing this a lot lately.

We don’t want to hurt Evasion builds. We would rather bring the mitigation of armor and shields to those levels. Our only caveat is we don’t want Evasion builds to be able to reach the highest levels of physical mitigation on top of their existing defenses.

Here are some of the changes we are considering.

Physical Resist Rating
The first change is to prepare Physical Resist Rating for use in the armor changes. The formula for the rating will change to the following formula, with the resulting multiplier applied to all physical damage.

150 / (150 + PRR)

This progression follows the current formula very closely out to 300 and then this formula is more generous at those higher end values.

As examples, a PRR of 50 would offer a damage multiplier of 0.75, a PRR of 100 would offer a damage multiplier of 0.6, and a PRR of 200 would offer a damage multiplier of 0.4285.

Magical Resist Rating
In addition, we are adding a new value called Magical Resist Rating. The formula for the rating will be the same as for PRR, with the resulting multiplier applied to all magical damage.

150 / (150 + PRR)

This new rating will apply to most non-physical damage sources including spells, elemental damage, poisons, lingering damage, and similar effects.

It is our intention that existing magical items that provide PRR would also provide MRR.



Armor and Ratings
Armor now has a base level of mitigation through these ratings. Unenchanted armor has Physical Resist Rating as part of its mitigation, and once armor has an enchantment of at least +1 value it also gains Magical Resist Rating.

The value armor depends on the class of the armor.

Robes or Outfits: No PRR, no MRR
Light Armor: 15 PRR, 15 MRR if armor has enchantments.
Medium Armor: 30 PRR, 30 MRR if armor has enchantments.
Heavy Armor: 45 PRR, 45 MRR if armor has enchantments.

Shields will give additional PRR and, if enchanted, MRR.

Buckler: None
Light Shield: 5 PRR, 5 MRR if shield has enchantments.
Heavy Shield: 10 PRR, 10 MRR if shield has enchantments.
Tower Shield: 15 PRR, 15 MRR if shield has enchantments.

In addition, characters who are proficient with shields can also use the larger shields for defense against magical attacks that would normally require a Reflex saving throw. Instead of (or in addition to) using your Reflex saving throw to mitigate the damage you can deflect the damage off your shield. This is represented by increasing your Physical and Magical Resist Ratings against those types of attacks when using a shield. Note that you gain this additional mitigation whether you make your Reflex saving throw or not.

Physical and Magical Resist Rating multiplier against magical attacks that normally allow a Reflex saving throw.

Buckler: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Light Shield: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Heavy Shield: 2.0
Tower Shield: 2.0

This means that characters with heavier armor and/or heavy or tower shields have an alternate mitigation against large area of effect attacks to help them compete in high level content with characters who use Evasion.

As an example, let’s take the case of a character built today to use heavy armor and tower shield and maximize PRR. Assuming a character had a PPR rating of 200 previously they would have a damage multiplier of ~ .4370 to physical damage.

While this mitigation is decent, characters built this way tend to die quickly once effects like Fireballs and dragon’s breath are flying around the battlefield.

Under the new system they would have a PRR and MRR of 260 which would translate to a damage multiplier of .4285 for both physical and magical damage. Against area of effect attacks (magic requiring a Reflex saving throw) this would be increased to 520, which translates to .2238.

In this example, when the heavily armored and shielded character is hit by dragon’s breath for 500 damage it would be reduced by his/her enchanted armor and shield down to 112. Meanwhile characters in light or no armor could use Evasion to attempt to negate the damage entirely.

Resist Rating Caps, Dodge Caps, and Evasion
In addition, there are new or changed caps on certain scores based on the armor you are wearing.

Dodge Cap for armor and shields

Robes or Outfit: 25%
Light Armor: 20%
Medium Armor: 10% and no Evasion feat
Heavy Armor: 5% and no Evasion feat

These cap values can be increased with abilities or enhancements as they can today.

Buckler: None
Light Shield: None
Heavy Shield: No Evasion feat
Tower Shield: No Evasion feat

PRR and MRR Cap for armor

Robes or Outfit: 100
Light Armor: 200
Medium Armor: No cap
Heavy Armor: No cap

Note that we have designed this so characters cannot gain both Evasion and the shield bonus coupled with high levels of resistance rating. This is intentional. If you see a hole in our design that allows for this please warn us!

But DPS is terrible when using a shield!
We intend to give characters who use weapon and shield additional options.

~ The Stalwart Defender and the Sacred Defender will no longer be shield based trees. Instead, the enhancements that current require shields will be changed to require medium or heavy armor.

~ The Paladin class has fallen behind beyond the second level so we plan to look at some more compelling reasons to advance in that class.

~ We plan to introduce two new trees for shield use. The Vanguard tree will be focused on DPS while using a weapon and shield. This DPS will come from a combination of weapon damage and shield bashes. The Shieldbearer tree will be a mitigation tree that will focus on heavy armor and shield. This will also offer ways to counter enemies with active mitigation such as stuns, knock downs, and the like. These trees would be available to Fighter, Paladin and perhaps even a new class that supported heavy armor and martial abilities.

What other changes do you plan?

~ The to hit values of creatures in Epic Elite content would be rebalanced so high Armor Class builds will have some mitigation.

Sev~

PRR changes to up it for heavy and more specifically medium armor - great change

spell aborption? not needed as other items mitigate this damage.

All the rest...STOP changing stuff!!! My Evasion pally has worked months to get the stupid shield that works today with evasion. Why should i have to downgrade to a light shield which does not exist in any good version (ie raid content) today!? There is no reason to limit dodge and evasion from what people have today!!!!

and why the @#$@ do i want to have to move my character to heavy or medium armor to tank? I've been doing this for 5-6 years in light armor to give up ac to gain evasion.

STOP THE CHANGES!!!!!

Rautis
06-09-2014, 04:15 PM
Changes to PRR and AC are welcome. MRR seems like it could be an interesting mechanic. To me it seems like it could be too strong. It for sure will be a huge change to the way the game will be played. Some points that I could think of


MRR interaction with traps can be somewhat counterintuitive to players and even further decreases lethality of traps.


Like earlier posters said the spell damage might really lose too much of its peaky nature.


Again CeitEireson has a good point about robe using characters without evasion. They'll be in trouble in content designed with MRR in mind.


What about Barbarians, Artificers and Favored souls? Will they be doomed to take more magical damage because their armor of choice is medium armor? Couldn't Medium and Heavy armor have same protection against spells since neither of them allows evasion? for physical damage Medium armor allows more dodge atleast.


Add me to the list of players who would like PRR and MRR be more separate stats so you would have to make build and gear choices with each of them in mind as separate character properties.


Changing shields that have always allowed evasion to no longer allow it seems rather strange. Maybe lower the shield multipliers to MRR into something you can agree having evasion with?

BOgre
06-09-2014, 04:15 PM
Heavy armor SHOULD be better.

Well, yes and no. Or have you forgotten that there exist Light/Medium armor wearing DPS classes like Barbs and Rangers? Is it your intention to completely exclude these from EE content now? It was bad for melees before, but this feels like it will be even MORE exclusionary.

bbqzor
06-09-2014, 04:21 PM
I'd love a PM about the details, and how much you'd sacrifice by swapping to a Medium shield.
Its not a PM but let me guess:
1) there is no medium shield, so you must mean light/small shield
2) there are two named small shields in game, chitin shield and weathered targe
3) they are lolz
4) he will have to craft or recraft a new shield, which now offers less prr/doublestrike/deflection etc relative to his current large shield
5) he will lose access to all the other benefits of large shield items, such as wall of wood, dethek runestone, and many others.
6) he will still evade things, meaning no gain on that front
7) he will now in theory take less physical damage assuming the other new mods fit, at the cost of redoing his itemization and losing dps via doublestike, bash, etc

Am I close? Cant believe that even has to be said. Face palm.

BurnerD
06-09-2014, 04:22 PM
From a practical standpoint his new system makes sense.

Example An evasion toon zigs instead of zags (figuratively) and fails to "evade" a fireball.... the damage should be significant since he/she has little to no physical protection...

A heavily armored character is not relying on the incoming spell missing him, but rather on his armor mitigating it. The end result is less affected by his actions, therefore a lower, but more consistent amount of damage makes sense.

I play both kinds of toons so I really don't have a bias. This just seems logical to me. Sounds like a good direction....




Ovrad talks about Peak damage, which we also call damage spikes. The design here is some builds will have higher total mitigation and have to deal with more damage spikes (Evasion builds with high Armor Class and Dodge) and some builds will take more overall damage but have a more predictable damage curve (Heavy Armor builds.)

~ The characters these changes benefit already have lower Reflex saves and thus are taking a lot of extra damage out of the gate.

~ The Evasion builds with high Dodge will have more severe damage spikes, but overall damage will still be lower thus conserving healing spell points *if* the healer can keep them alive during the spikes.

~ If we significantly reduced the MRR of this proposal heavy armor would simply not be as valuable as Evasion + high Reflex. We love our Evasion builds, but we do want other options that can compete in tough content.

Sev~

B0ltdrag0n
06-09-2014, 04:22 PM
These look like great changes. Thanks!

Severlin
06-09-2014, 04:22 PM
This feels like yet another pendulum swing. Yesterday must have Evasion, tomorrow must have Armor. Add to that the Dodge Cap nerf and you're seriously nerfing all the "middle" classes between pyjamas and fullpates. Light/Medium Armor builds will suffer.

Leave Dodge Cap as is and reduce the power of MRR and you may have something.

The Dodge cap went up. I think I am missing which nerf you are talking about?

Sev~

alancarp
06-09-2014, 04:23 PM
I'm seeing a lot of resistance in the comments thus far to the idea of eliminating Evasion for the heavily armored toons. Frankly, I don't care how it's been done that way for 'THE WHOLE EXISTENCE OF DDO': it just doesn't make any logical sense that anybody wearing 50 lbs. of armor and carrying a large shield would be able to evade anything. You shouldn't be able to have the best of both worlds, IMHO. A 5% dodge cap (i.e., 5% evasion chance) for the full tin cans makes reasonable sense.

In fact, while I applaud the ideas presented in post 1, I do have only a minor question or two:

1. Did you really intend no difference in the PRR/MRR rating multipliers in going from buckler->light shield->hvy shield->tower? I guess I would have expected a slight bonus at each tier, perhaps 1.0 for the buckler, 1.3 for the light shield, 2.0 for hvy, and 2.5 for the tower.... something like that. This would also provide a reward for taking the proficiency feat for the Towers.

2. I'm not clear on whether Armor Class would continue as status quo, or be replaced by this system.

But otherwise, in thinking about defense: it's a "layered" thing. If I have some dodge ability, then you might miss me that way. A whiff is not very likely, but I may have a shield. If you get past my shield, then you have to deal with my armor. Beyond my armor, I might have other magic to resist your damage attempts. These changes seem consistent with those 'real world' ( :] ) physics involved.

Scraap
06-09-2014, 04:25 PM
Its not a PM but let me guess:
1) there is no medium shield, so you must mean light/small shield
2) there are two named small shields in game, chitin shield and weathered targe
3) they are lolz
4) he will have to craft or recraft a new shield, which now offers less prr/doublestrike/deflection etc relative to his current large shield
5) he will lose access to all the other benefits of large shield items, such as wall of wood, dethek runestone, and many others.
6) he will still evade things, meaning no gain on that front
7) he will now in theory take less physical damage assuming the other new mods fit, at the cost of redoing his itemization and losing dps via doublestike, bash, etc

Am I close? Cant believe that even has to be said. Face palm.

You forgot the complete stat point spread retool from loosing the hipoint amp you can use for giving yourself some breathing room in that regard if you're not trying to play a 2 stat wonder.

Bridge_Dweller
06-09-2014, 04:25 PM
Well, yes and no. Or have you forgotten that there exist Light/Medium armor wearing DPS classes like Barbs and Rangers? Is it your intention to completely exclude these from EE content now? It was bad for melees before, but this feels like it will be even MORE exclusionary.

I'm not sure how it would work like that.

B0ltdrag0n
06-09-2014, 04:25 PM
The Dodge cap went up. I think I am missing which nerf you are talking about?

Sev~


There isn't one. He is wrong.

Thar
06-09-2014, 04:26 PM
Ovrad talks about Peak damage, which we also call damage spikes. The design here is some builds will have higher total mitigation and have to deal with more damage spikes (Evasion builds with high Armor Class and Dodge) and some builds will take more overall damage but have a more predictable damage curve (Heavy Armor builds.)

~ The characters these changes benefit already have lower Reflex saves and thus are taking a lot of extra damage out of the gate.

~ The Evasion builds with high Dodge will have more severe damage spikes, but overall damage will still be lower thus conserving healing spell points *if* the healer can keep them alive during the spikes.

~ If we significantly reduced the MRR of this proposal heavy armor would simply not be as valuable as Evasion + high Reflex. We love our Evasion builds, but we do want other options that can compete in tough content.

Sev~

Evastion tanks won't get the AC needed from Light armor and light shields with no enhancement line AC boosts. you will kill that mode of play.

alancarp
06-09-2014, 04:27 PM
From a practical standpoint his new system makes sense.

Example An evasion toon zigs instead of zags (figuratively) and fails to "evade" a fireball.... the damage should be significant since he/she has little to no physical protection...

A heavily armored character is not relying on the incoming spell missing him, but rather on his armor mitigating it. The end result is less affected by his actions, therefore a lower, but more consistent amount of damage makes sense. [snip]

Yes - agree.... better said than mine.

JOTMON
06-09-2014, 04:27 PM
While this does look promising...it is still lacking....

PRR still needs to mitigate more damage than it does. a boss that spams hits for 500 a swing will still destroy a S/B tank with 50% damage mitigation.. this needs to be able to get much higher.
Bigger increases from tiers of armor/shields.. a well invested Stalwart type tank with heavy armor and towershield with 200+ PRR should be able to mitigate 80% damage or more.

Perhaps add some Torc type effects to heavy armor when shield blocking. (converts damage to SP/HP), .. they certainly are not doing much damage when shild blocking...
and/or % defletion damage.. Deflection bonus only applies to armor/shields... this way they can have a chance of deflecting damage back to opponent, while taking little or no damage.

Apply stacking DR calculated as 10% of PRR to all players with or without armor.

Something for barbarians.. they are still utlimately screwed.... they should have something like +5 PRR/level that does not stack with armor or armor type bonusses

A heavy tank Shielding up for an attack should mean something other than get a rez clickie ready....

Raiderone
06-09-2014, 04:30 PM
Well, that pretty much blows up my S&B Evasion tank completely. Goes from Sub-optional damage output traded for decent all around mitigation to nonfunctional entirely due to loosing the PRE. Glad I didn't shell out for PDK for that. ohwait.

Heavy Shield: No Evasion feat
Tower Shield: No Evasion feat
~ The Stalwart Defender and the Sacred Defender will no longer be shield based trees. Instead, the enhancements that current require shields will be changed to require medium or heavy armor.
~ The Paladin class has fallen behind beyond the second level so we plan to look at some more compelling reasons to advance in that class.
~ We plan to introduce two new trees for shield use. The Vanguard tree will be focused on DPS while using a weapon and shield. This DPS will come from a combination of weapon damage and shield bashes. The Shieldbearer tree will be a mitigation tree that will focus on heavy armor and shield. This will also offer ways to counter enemies with active mitigation such as stuns, knock downs, and the like. These trees would be available to Fighter, Paladin and perhaps even a new class that supported heavy armor and martial abilities.
Sev~

I would suggest Stalwart Defender stays the same for light armor, but not require a shield for medium or heavy armor. A guildy of mine has similar S&B Evasion toon.
Heavy Shield: Evasion.
Tower Shield: No Evasion.

dunklezhan
06-09-2014, 04:32 PM
~ If we significantly reduced the MRR of this proposal heavy armor would simply not be as valuable as Evasion + high Reflex. We love our Evasion builds, but we do want other options that can compete in tough content.

Sev~

I disagree that this is vital enough to just dish out a high level of general magical damage reduction on the basis that your armour has a "+" effect on it - but at least you have a good reason for your decision. I'm not against armour builds getting magical damage reduction/absorption in general with a goal to bring things on average in line with evasion/avoidance builds mind you, I just don't think it should be as easy as it feels like you're making it.

How about a lootgen armour effect that improves the benefit of the (lower base) MRR that the armour might have in comparison to its PRR. Giving up presumably another beneficial effect in order to seek your magical mitigation. Hard choices are good, I thought?

Full disclosure: I used to have a heavy tank S&B. I loved him. I respecced him to a PM (wraith)/EK/Kensai because it was more survivable a while back. I'd love to TR him as a S&B again, I've still got all his gear. My other successful melee characters are ALL evasion based (and my best is only a pure monk with only average gear - about 50% named which would basically be 2 pieces of Greensteel and the Eveningstar set all the way up at level 27) he's hardly an edge case). So I have the most to gain and nothing to lose (since you aren't nerfing avoidance/evasion) from the changes you propose. And I still think the current changes make high MRR too easy. But I don't claim to speak for the edge cases and I know that's really where you want a lot of the balance.

Bridge_Dweller
06-09-2014, 04:33 PM
if you guys think evasion is needed with these changes . . . run some numbers.

Severlin
06-09-2014, 04:34 PM
We will definitely need to address the lack of good small shields in future content. I know we plan to have small shields and bucklers in the loot for the epic version of Orchard which would be released at the same time as these changes.

Sev~

Arlathen
06-09-2014, 04:37 PM
We will definitely need to address the lack of good small shields in future content. I know we plan to have small shields and bucklers in the loot for the epic version of Orchard which would be released at the same time as these changes.Sev~Holy Cat out of the Bag, Batman!

dunklezhan
06-09-2014, 04:38 PM
We will definitely need to address the lack of good small shields in future content. I know we plan to have small shields and bucklers in the loot for the epic version of Orchard which would be released at the same time as these changes.

Sev~

I guess some people will be very excited by this. I loathe undead quests. But I love pirate quests. So I'll just say: awesome! Another epic explorer area (not sarcasm, I love explorer areas)!

BOgre
06-09-2014, 04:40 PM
There isn't one. He is wrong.

Wouldn't be the 1st time :) But then could you re-teach me how it DOES work then? I was under the impression that we currently have a 25% dodge cap and the new system imposes 20/15/10/5 caps on the heavier armors. I tried re-reading what I thought was the relevant info on wiki, but I'm not seeing it.

CeltEireson
06-09-2014, 04:42 PM
Evastion tanks won't get the AC needed from Light armor and light shields with no enhancement line AC boosts. you will kill that mode of play.

But don't evasion tanks generally rely on dodge/concealment etc for damage mitigation in epic elite because getting AC to a relevant level currently is almost a waste of time for most.

Though I agree they should really leave large shields alone and allow them to still be used with evasion.

Chaimberland
06-09-2014, 04:43 PM
We will definitely need to address the lack of good small shields in future content. I know we plan to have small shields and bucklers in the loot for the epic version of Orchard which would be released at the same time as these changes.

Sev~

Epic version of Orchard!? I'm not much of a fortune teller but I think you just derailed this thread. That is soooo cool.

HatsuharuZ
06-09-2014, 04:44 PM
We will definitely need to address the lack of good small shields in future content. I know we plan to have small shields and bucklers in the loot for the epic version of Orchard which would be released at the same time as these changes.

Sev~

*Head explodes*


Question: Is there really a need for light shields? It might be a good idea to combine light shields and bucklers. Basically, make all light shields into bucklers, and increase the stats of bucklers to what used to be light shields.

Thar
06-09-2014, 04:45 PM
We will definitely need to address the lack of good small shields in future content. I know we plan to have small shields and bucklers in the loot for the epic version of Orchard which would be released at the same time as these changes.

Sev~

or leave the large shield changes alone...

B0ltdrag0n
06-09-2014, 04:46 PM
Wouldn't be the 1st time :) But then could you re-teach me how it DOES work then? I was under the impression that we currently have a 25% dodge cap and the new system imposes 20/15/10/5 caps on the heavier armors. I tried re-reading what I thought was the relevant info on wiki, but I'm not seeing it.


This check is done independent of the miss chance resulting from Armor Class and other measures of not getting hit, such as Concealment or Incorporeality. The dodge chance is capped by the Maximum dexterity bonus of the armor worn, and cannot exceed 25%.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Dodge_bonus

Bridge_Dweller
06-09-2014, 04:49 PM
We will definitely need to address the lack of good small shields in future content. I know we plan to have small shields and bucklers in the loot for the epic version of Orchard which would be released at the same time as these changes.

Sev~

I still think evasion shluld be able to work with a large shield, not towers.

And while you're at it, I think Max dodge equaling your MDB should stay in the game.

Bridge_Dweller
06-09-2014, 04:50 PM
epic version of Orchard
Sev~

Do you realize this leak is bigger news than anything else you posted? :)

ForgettableNPC
06-09-2014, 04:51 PM
Not sure if making Dodge Cap for Light Armor at 20 might be a good idea, with the Swashbucklers coming out and all.

Since Swashbucklers rely on dodging blows while fighting instead of enduring the damage, a lower Dodge Cap would mean less dodging, meaning getting hit more frequently and that much closer to dying.

Maybe we could have certain classes or Enhancement Trees have a greater Dodge Cap than others as they level up, like Rogues, or Rangers, or Swashbucklers.

That's just my two cents on that matter.

On another note, regarding MRR, where would Orbs fit into that equation? I think they should give more MRR than PRR (if any) considering they're magic-oriented rather than physical.

bbqzor
06-09-2014, 04:53 PM
I'm seeing a lot of resistance in the comments thus far to the idea of eliminating Evasion for the heavily armored toons.
There is no evasion in heavy armor. There hasnt been for many years, though there was at the very start of DDO (which was different than pnp, no evasion in heavy armor there either).


Frankly, I don't care how it's been done that way for 'THE WHOLE EXISTENCE OF DDO': it just doesn't make any logical sense that anybody wearing 50 lbs. of armor and carrying a large shield would be able to evade anything. You shouldn't be able to have the best of both worlds, IMHO.
They dont have the best of both worlds. They can evade in light armor, with a heavy shield. Heavy shields weigh 15 lbs. The situation you describe has not existed for years. Light shields weigh 6 lbs for reference. I really doubt 9 lbs is a meaningful difference for "real world" considerations...


A 5% dodge cap (i.e., 5% evasion chance) for the full tin cans makes reasonable sense.
This part is fine, and wholly unrelated to the use of evasion or not. Evasion does not mean what you think it means, if youre using it to describe the "dodge" mechanic. "Evasion" is a specific ability with a specific game use, and it is limited by armor and shield type. Adding shield types to the limiting list is what everyone is discussing, and its a nerf. A foolish one.

Usually I try not to quote other players much, but as you referenced my post with something which seems to confuse game terminology, I felt it would be helpful. Both to point out that specific terms are being used here rather than generic words, and those terms have game applications. And to point out that even people who may seem to be agreeing with the changes, are potentially saying the same thing as those who dont.

......


You forgot the complete stat point spread retool from loosing the hipoint amp you can use for giving yourself some breathing room in that regard if you're not trying to play a 2 stat wonder.

Ah yes my mistake. Pulling the stance benefits off light armor will indeed screw evasion tanks far more than a change to light shields. That is just brutal. This will kill evasion takes completely then, at least the kind made from paladin/fighter bases using light armor and shields.

With no itemization support, lessened feat support, and zero enhancement support, theyre done. Thats foolish as well. Subtle but important catch. Sigh.

.....



Wouldn't be the 1st time :) But then could you re-teach me how it DOES work then? I was under the impression that we currently have a 25% dodge cap and the new system imposes 20/15/10/5 caps on the heavier armors. I tried re-reading what I thought was the relevant info on wiki, but I'm not seeing it.

Right now its 25%, *or the max dex bonus of your armor*. So for most heavy armors, thats 1% cap. I read this as raising it to 5%, from the context.

But he didnt state if it actually replaces the max dex bonus, or just caps how much you can improve it. So either it starts at 5% instead of 1%, and you can raise it. Or it starts at 1%, and can be raised but no further than 5%. Hoping its the former. Clarification would be good.

..........


We will definitely need to address the lack of good small shields in future content. I know we plan to have small shields and bucklers in the loot for the epic version of Orchard which would be released at the same time as these changes.
LOL man this dev... yes, the lack of good small shields has been a pillar of community discussion, with demand for good small shields reaching an all time high.... after the potential to be forced into using them by a backwards change aimed at eliminating s/b evasion tanks. Im done. You have not once commented on the potential overbalance this brings, comments made not just by me but by many long time posters who play upper end. Just "oh we want heavy armor to be good" ok well, mission accomplished. To the detriment of the entire rest of the game.

That you would seriously spend time trying to backwards itemize small shields to support an unnecessary and overly complicated change no one asked for is beyond me. My fullplate shouldnt auto block fireball. And certainly not to the extent it marginalizes evasion almost completely. And if you think thats even remotely a good way to spend your time, I mourn for the game.

onny
06-09-2014, 04:54 PM
I think people see the top end 550 MRR/PRR providing 78% damage reduction and saying wow that's gonna kill everyone elses builds. But how easy will it be to hit 275 PRR. most classes that focus it now don't get much above 120 or so unless they have massive investments in past lives and gear min maxing and epic twists of fate. your average tank will have 180 PRR/MRR most likely and be able to survive taking 30-40% damage from caster attacks and melee. Which is about right. Right now evasion classes can do a lot of content with 0 risk by maxing damage avoidance and having self healing. As evidenced by who is playing EE right now. I think the changes are good. Those with massive investments will get really good at not dying (just like evasion classes). And more people will be able to play in end content since they don't die instantly to nukes. As for casters in robes without any PRR MRR or evasion. they have displacement and the same access to dodge as any evasion class. so should be decent at avoiding hits. as far as spells go they don't really have a way to avoid. but they also put out the best dps in the game via instant kills and massive spell damage. that's their tradeoff. Be in the back line protected by your tanks and evasion types instead of soloing everything. Tanks are supposed to be tanks, not bbq broilers. The most iconic image in D&D is the knight with shield raised deflecting a dragons breath!

Krelar
06-09-2014, 04:54 PM
I know we plan to have small shields and bucklers in the loot for the epic version of Orchard which would be released at the same time as these changes.

Sev~

Can you tell of if this is (tentatively) planned for the end of this year or sometime next year?

B0ltdrag0n
06-09-2014, 04:57 PM
Not sure if making Dodge Cap for Light Armor at 20 might be a good idea, with the Swashbucklers coming out and all.

Since Swashbucklers rely on dodging blows while fighting instead of enduring the damage, a lower Dodge Cap would mean less dodging, meaning getting hit more frequently and that much closer to dying.
.


Celestial Gives 18 Cap NOW

20 > 18.

Thar
06-09-2014, 05:06 PM
The Dodge cap went up. I think I am missing which nerf you are talking about?

Sev~

The dodge cap went up but most light armor evasion characters probably had enhancements or twists to reach the end cap of 25. We lose access to defender which subtracts another 3 to the armor, we lose 50% shield and Armor AC, +3 ac, saves, +6 con, +20% ac, 25 prr, etc etc. What enhancement line do you expect evasion tanks to use? We lose access to heavy shields reducing ac and effects (increasing grind for some replacement that is suitable not to mention fustrating for those that grind for current shields in raids or crafting).

What do we gain for losing all this? a little dodge and a new bank toon.

Seriously you can't be putting restrictions on items this late in the game. ADD to what exists, don't take away. Not only for this but for any change.

Tilomere
06-09-2014, 05:07 PM
My experience over 4 epic lives as a non-evasive druid is telling me the MRR absorbtion needs to double. Fire shield which is better was not enough, I needed shield deflection active and block energy past lives on a character with massive self healing.

I won't need the block energy past lives after this change on my druid, which will be a large buff. Other shield wearers that lose evasion due to this are going to get literally hosed by fire since they don't have as good of interactions with shield deflection/block energy or massive self healing.

alancarp
06-09-2014, 05:07 PM
There is no evasion in heavy armor. There hasnt been for many years, ... They dont have the best of both worlds. They can evade in light armor, with a heavy shield. Heavy shields weigh 15 lbs. The situation you describe has not existed for years. Light shields weigh 6 lbs for reference. I really doubt 9 lbs is a meaningful difference for "real world" considerations...


Well, that's good: I was summarizing what seemed to be multiple complaints from earlier in the thread that seemed to imply the opposite. If I misread or misunderstood those comments, then that's fine - it's a situation that I didn't believe should prevail. And yes, I recognize evasion/dodge as separate mechanics - I'll plead guilty to glibness in equating them for purposes of trying to simplify the post.

Personally, I would expect heavy shield use to disqualify evasion, but that's an opinion based on a notion that bigger shields would necessary physical mobility... but that's hardly a show-stopper for me either direction.

Raiderone
06-09-2014, 05:08 PM
Well, yes and no. Or have you forgotten that there exist Light/Medium armor wearing DPS classes like Barbs and Rangers? Is it your intention to completely exclude these from EE content now? It was bad for melees before, but this feels like it will be even MORE exclusionary.

Whatever changes are made, they shouldn't be made to decrease(nerf) another play style or destroying builds. as some have pointed out nothing should be just given.
It's great that they want to change PRR and add MRR. But don't make it just based on a type of armor worn ie I wear Heavy Armor, now I'm great.
It needs to be earned thru accomplishment and sometimes sacrifice. Every build makes a sacrifice, example less strength maybe more dex and wisdom (like Min Maxing or Balanced).

Look at evasion, evasion isnt good without great reflex saves. I'd make PRR influenced by strength and constitution.

Severlin
06-09-2014, 05:09 PM
/swings watch back and forth

You did not read anything about any future content. Sev did not spoil any future plans.

/snaps finger

Sev~

CeltEireson
06-09-2014, 05:11 PM
Right now its 25%, *or the max dex bonus of your armor*. So for most heavy armors, thats 1% cap. I read this as raising it to 5%, from the context.

But he didnt state if it actually replaces the max dex bonus, or just caps how much you can improve it. So either it starts at 5% instead of 1%, and you can raise it. Or it starts at 1%, and can be raised but no further than 5%. Hoping its the former. Clarification would be good.



Im taking it to mean the 'max dex bonus of your armour' bit is now gone and its a straight 25/20/10/5 but those can be increase with appropriate feats/enhancements etc as they are now. Don't think there are too many light armours (if any) where the base max dex bonus is 20 (think the highest is about 18 or 19). So assuming that's the case youll maybe gain a few points of max dodge if you're a light armour user.

If this is the case there's another somewhat odd thing form this in that for each armour type there are currently two levels - one with slightly lower ac but higher max dex bonus, and the other with higher ac but lower max dex bonus. If theyre making all armours of a certain type (heavy etc) have the same max dex bonus then theyre effectively penalising one set of armour and boosting the other. So for medium armours for example celestial scalemail has max dex bonus of 12 but equivalent breastplate has only 7 - under new system they'd both have 10, for planeforged half plate its 6 MDB and equivalent full plate its 1 MDB but under new system would be 5 for both.

Seems somewhat odd, and yes needs clarification.

Severlin
06-09-2014, 05:19 PM
In response to Dodge cap: our plan is that the system will use the higher value if your armor happens to be one of the few with a higher current Dodge cap.

Sev~

LordTigerDawn
06-09-2014, 05:21 PM
Dodge Cap for armor and shields

Heavy Armor: 5% and no Evasion feat

This does kill my dex elf in full plate build. I worked hard to get the dodge to 15% on the TWF build, but now it is loosing 10% dodge and gaining 15 PRR and some MRR.

MRR will be helpful, but loosing 10% dodge vs 15 PRR is terrible.

It will be nice to use the greater paladin stances with just heavy plate so that will be nice. Too bad you can use the stance to get bonus to dex, with all the dex enabled attack options today.

Loss of dodge really does hurt.

Thar
06-09-2014, 05:24 PM
Do you realize this leak is bigger news than anything else you posted? :)

oh i don't even want to think about epic inferno... or epic abbott.. hate those quests...

OverlordOfRats
06-09-2014, 05:25 PM
Im taking it to mean the 'max dex bonus of your armour' bit is now gone and its a straight 25/20/10/5 but those can be increase with appropriate feats/enhancements etc as they are now. Don't think there are too many light armours (if any) where the base max dex bonus is 20 (think the highest is about 18 or 19). So assuming that's the case youll maybe gain a few points of max dodge if you're a light armour user.

If this is the case there's another somewhat odd thing form this in that for each armour type there are currently two levels - one with slightly lower ac but higher max dex bonus, and the other with higher ac but lower max dex bonus. If theyre making all armours of a certain type (heavy etc) have the same max dex bonus then theyre effectively penalising one set of armour and boosting the other. So for medium armours for example celestial scalemail has max dex bonus of 12 but equivalent breastplate has only 7 - under new system they'd both have 10, for planeforged half plate its 6 MDB and equivalent full plate its 1 MDB but under new system would be 5 for both.

Seems somewhat odd, and yes needs clarification.

That's a question I have also.

Will leather and chain be the same, just with different looks. Will they keep the AC, MAX DEX, Armor Check penalty, and spell failure different, but both have the same dodge cap of 20?

alancarp
06-09-2014, 05:26 PM
/swings watch back and forth ... You did not read anything about any future content. Sev did not spoil any future plans. ... /snaps finger Sev~

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16554982/graphics/WhatHazBeenSeen.jpg

Tilomere
06-09-2014, 05:26 PM
Evastion tanks won't get the AC needed from Light armor and light shields with no enhancement line AC boosts. you will kill that mode of play.

I think this is the intent. Not to have evasion tanks that can deal with all forms of damage the game can throw out by simply ignoring it. Ignore reflex by evasion, or physical damage by PRR and tank stats. Not ignore both.

L2Marshall
06-09-2014, 05:26 PM
Please tell me why I just spent a few months epic TRing through my divine destinies and Iconic TRing through PDK for the monk I was ultimately building for? I could have gotten to 100 PRR (your proposed max under this new system) without a single past life in unyielding sentinel. Add in the fact that I grinded through 20 Deathwyrm completions for the bracers (literally the only thing I really wanted from the raid). Now I can only achieve the same max PRR that any brand new monk toon could get with 0 past lives at all? I am a little displeased (to put it mildly). Sure I can reinvest a lot of character/item options away from PRR and have a DIFFERENT build, but is that why I spent all that time, no, no it is not. I spent all that time to have a HIGHER PRR THAN SOMEONE WHO DIDN'T DO THEIR EPIC TRs. If you are really going to cap PRR like this, or ac, or anything else you get from investing time into TRing then the benefits from TRing need to be able to break any existing cap. I knew Shadar-ki past lives would not go beyond the dodge cap before I did them, so I am ok with that, because I knew it before the fact. But with the build I was making, I knew that I would not reach the dodge cap already in existence. Was there any forewarning of an impending PRR cap? NO! You NEED to do something about this, I doubt I am the only person who went though all of that trouble to increase my PRR just to have it nerfed out from under me. I already could not get PRR from robes, now they place a hard cap on my possible PRR too? Are you going to change enhancement lines to allow us to extend the cap in the way we can with dodge? I don't mind rebalancing heavily armored characters, let them have their fun too, but there is no need to nerf robed PRR, if we put in the effort to achieve meaningful PRR then let us have it!

Enoach
06-09-2014, 05:26 PM
As someone that enjoys the S&B style on my paladin I applaud the "rebalance of To-Hit" on Epic Mobs, mainly because I truly feel that is one of the biggest contributing factors of why AC does not scale to the Epic Elite levels.

Now I like the PRR changes especially with the idea that heavier armor provides more physical damage reduction.

However, the MRR I'm really not sure about. Why should my shield/armor provide me with resistance to spell damage? Would it not be better to leave Evasion for being superior vs Reflex save damage and let Heavy Armor be superior to Physical damage.

I'm fine with adding to the Shield mastery feats a percent mitigation from splash type damage effects, with a bonus if actively blocking (Thus removing Shield Deflection)

However, I can't help but think that maybe the system could be fixed using the d20 Touch AC, and implementing the loss of Dexterity bonus/Dodge bonus based on situations that would prevent them such as holds. The other aspect would be making SR meaningful for the non-damage spells by not translating a CR54 as 54 Levels of Caster but as 20 Caster with a bonus based on so many CR's above what is considered a Level 20 caster.

As for Shield use in game, I would like to see more flexibility in using shields offensively such as implementing "Charge type" abilities as well as stun chances. I would also like to see Tower Shields actually display as Tower Shields (Practically full body length) as well as add an area of protection behind them that extends beyond the Shield holder.

EllisDee37
06-09-2014, 05:27 PM
I'd rather see the MRR implemented as magical absorption, only because the concept of MRR feels clunky to me. Most lootgen armors and shields are polluted with the essentially worthless energy absorption now; how about just remove those and make it a simple magical absorption? Leave specific energy absorption to greensteel, fire shield and draconic twists.



I'm concerned about the PRR cap being way too high for robe wearers. I'd like to see a "maxed" evasion+robe character's dodge + PRR net effect be equivalent to a "maxed" heavy armor character's dodge + PRR. On first reading, it seems to me that the 100 PRR + 25% dodge is way better than uncapped PRR + 5% dodge the heavy armor can attain. Of course factor in the ability of the heavy armor wearer to increase his dodge cap. Still, a PRR cap of 50 for robes, 75 for light armor, 150 for medium and uncapped for heavy sounds better to me.

ForgettableNPC
06-09-2014, 05:28 PM
Celestial Gives 18 Cap NOW

20 > 18.

Well, an Epic Duelist's Leathers upgraded I think gives over 20 cap, I think.

LeoLionxxx
06-09-2014, 05:29 PM
/swings watch back and forth

You did not read anything about any future content. Sev did not spoil any future plans.

/snaps finger

Sev~

Good luck explaining to the boss :P



It seems like the MRR amounts would be too great like this. As well, it doesn't make too much sense that armour would be as effective at absorbing a sword as it is a fireball (in fact you should be cooking in there, but hey, magic).
Perhaps have the PRR flat rates tied to the type of Armour, and MRR tied to the enhancement value - or better yet a function of the 2.

(where n = enhancement value)
Light Armor: 15 PRR, 2n MRR
Medium Armor: 30 PRR, 2n MRR
Heavy Armor: 45 PRR, 3n MRR


Though perhaps for shields it could stay really low.

Light Shield: 5 PRR, 1n MRR
Heavy Shield: 10 PRR, 1n MRR
Tower Shield: 15 PRR, 2n MRR

This makes sense because the magic is what gives it the resistance to other magic, so the stronger the spells, the stronger the defense.

As well, items/enhancements that give PRR should not alwase give MRR as well - doesn't quite make sense. Instead, it could happily be another enchantment altogether.

Severlin
06-09-2014, 05:29 PM
Dodge Cap for armor and shields

Heavy Armor: 5% and no Evasion feat

This does kill my dex elf in full plate build. I worked hard to get the dodge to 15% on the TWF build, but now it is loosing 10% dodge and gaining 15 PRR and some MRR.

MRR will be helpful, but loosing 10% dodge vs 15 PRR is terrible.

It will be nice to use the greater paladin stances with just heavy plate so that will be nice. Too bad you can use the stance to get bonus to dex, with all the dex enabled attack options today.

Loss of dodge really does hurt.

Dodge in Heavy Armor is currently limited to the maximum dexterity bonus of your armor. This isn't meant to be a nerf, if you happen to have a special heavy armor with higher than a 5% max dodge the new system will use the higher value.

Sev~

FestusHood
06-09-2014, 05:30 PM
Its not a PM but let me guess:
1) there is no medium shield, so you must mean light/small shield
2) there are two named small shields in game, chitin shield and weathered targe
3) they are lolz
4) he will have to craft or recraft a new shield, which now offers less prr/doublestrike/deflection etc relative to his current large shield
5) he will lose access to all the other benefits of large shield items, such as wall of wood, dethek runestone, and many others.
6) he will still evade things, meaning no gain on that front
7) he will now in theory take less physical damage assuming the other new mods fit, at the cost of redoing his itemization and losing dps via doublestike, bash, etc

Am I close? Cant believe that even has to be said. Face palm.

No, you're not close. The original statement was as reference to the defender pre's excluding evasion because of the armor required. It actually had nothing to do with the shield.

Fionivar
06-09-2014, 05:30 PM
Epic Dualist Leathers ( http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Duelist%27s_Leathers ) Would have a base cap of 20 (18 +2 Mobility), In Swashbucker you would have 26 (1 per core ability) and up to another 6 from Second Skin for a total of 32 (could also swap in Shadow Dancer twist for the same) .

32 was an perfect number as you were expected to have a cap of 25 + 5 Dodge cap from Roll with the Punches and another 2 from the Guild ship buff for a cap of 32. The expected dodge percent on a Swashbuckler (using a buckler) was around 33% give or take some enhacements. So from what I see, you will lose 5% dodge from the new system, but gain some MRR (but you have evasion so eh?)

With the new options, you could only reach these caps in pajamas. Ahh well, I'll try to get my SwashBuckler time in before these changes.

Severlin
06-09-2014, 05:31 PM
As well, items/enhancements that give PRR should not alwase give MRR as well - doesn't quite make sense. Instead, it could happily be another enchantment altogether.


These are separate enchantments. Current items will give PRR and MRR in equal amounts, but future items need not do so. There is design space for future loot to offer more of one or another.

Sev~

bbqzor
06-09-2014, 05:32 PM
Personally, I would expect heavy shield use to disqualify evasion, but that's an opinion based on a notion that bigger shields would necessary physical mobility... but that's hardly a show-stopper for me either direction.
Thats the logic which stops tower shields (which weigh 50 lbs) from allowing evasion, and always has (I think from game start, but certainly for many years if not).

Adding large shields to that list is very hard because of the other game structures which have built up over the years... from enhancements, to feats, to itemization, pulling them from the list creates a ripple effect of holes. Its less about heavy shield being flavorful, and more like heavy shield is the I-beam holding up a lot of other things. Yanking it now brings the house down, rather than just making sense on its own merits.

Without any intensive reworking of all those other existing structures, this reams a good number of light evasion tank builds completely. It guts them. Thats (one of) the issue(s) with this change package. Glad it makes more sense now, and is one reason I think more people than it seems would be opposed to this, if they had more information on all the variables involved. Devs included. I seriously hope this is heavily revised before it even gets to lama.

OverlordOfRats
06-09-2014, 05:32 PM
Dodge Cap for armor and shields

Heavy Armor: 5% and no Evasion feat

This does kill my dex elf in full plate build. I worked hard to get the dodge to 15% on the TWF build, but now it is loosing 10% dodge and gaining 15 PRR and some MRR.

MRR will be helpful, but loosing 10% dodge vs 15 PRR is terrible.

It will be nice to use the greater paladin stances with just heavy plate so that will be nice. Too bad you can use the stance to get bonus to dex, with all the dex enabled attack options today.

Loss of dodge really does hurt.

IF I am understanding it correctly, right now your full plate armor has a capped dodge of 1% that you have raised by 11 points. Under the proposal, your full plate would have a capped dodge of 5% that you could raise by 11 to get to 19%.

Theolin
06-09-2014, 05:32 PM
Please tell me why I just spent a few months epic TRing through my divine destinies and Iconic TRing through PDK for the monk I was ultimately building for? I could have gotten to 100 PRR (your proposed max under this new system) without a single past life in unyielding sentinel. Add in the fact that I grinded through 20 Deathwyrm completions for the bracers (literally the only thing I really wanted from the raid). Now I can only achieve the same max PRR that any brand new monk toon could get with 0 past lives at all? I am a little displeased (to put it mildly). Sure I can reinvest a lot of character/item options away from PRR and have a DIFFERENT build, but is that why I spent all that time, no, no it is not. I spent all that time to have a HIGHER PRR THAN SOMEONE WHO DIDN'T DO THEIR EPIC TRs. If you are really going to cap PRR like this, or ac, or anything else you get from investing time into TRing then the benefits from TRing need to be able to break any existing cap. I knew Shadar-ki past lives would not go beyond the dodge cap before I did them, so I am ok with that, because I knew it before the fact. But with the build I was making, I knew that I would not reach the dodge cap already in existence. Was there any forewarning of an impending PRR cap? NO! You NEED to do something about this, I doubt I am the only person who went though all of that trouble to increase my PRR just to have it nerfed out from under me. I already could not get PRR from robes, now they place a hard cap on my possible PRR too? Are you going to change enhancement lines to allow us to extend the cap in the way we can with dodge? I don't mind rebalancing heavily armored characters, let them have their fun too, but there is no need to nerf robed PRR, if we put in the effort to achieve meaningful PRR then let us have it!


That's ok .... I'm about 1/2 way through my laundry list of things to do to hit 200-210 PRR in robes .... thought I would have something no one else would have .... now its total **** compared to just any old toon

bbqzor
06-09-2014, 05:33 PM
No, you're not close. The original statement was as reference to the defender pre's excluding evasion because of the armor required. It actually had nothing to do with the shield.
The DEVS post was referencing a shield. It was even quoted in my post, showing so. Additionally, I already followed up on the stance issue in another post previously. Nice try though.

Thar
06-09-2014, 05:34 PM
Will MRR stack with absorption items, twists, etc? if so then it's probably too high since you can stack various items now for 50%+33%+28%+24%+22% absorb

maybe the better idea would be to dial back the damage...

B0ltdrag0n
06-09-2014, 05:35 PM
Well, an Epic Duelist's Leathers upgraded I think gives over 20 cap, I think.

Again. Do you not know how Dodge Caps currently work? ....

Severlin
06-09-2014, 05:35 PM
Epic Dualist Leathers ( http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Duelist%27s_Leathers ) Would have a base cap of 20 (18 +2 Mobility), In Swashbucker you would have 26 (1 per core ability) and up to another 6 from Second Skin for a total of 32 (could also swap in Shadow Dancer twist for the same) .

32 was an perfect number as you were expected to have a cap of 25 + 5 Dodge cap from Roll with the Punches and another 2 from the Guild ship buff for a cap of 32.

With the new options, you could only reach these caps in pajamas. Ahh well, I'll try to get my SwashBuckler time in before these changes.

The intention is that the listed dodge caps are for base armor, before any feats or enhancements that increase the cap are applied.

Sev~

jakeelala
06-09-2014, 05:38 PM
I'd rather see the MRR implemented as magical absorption, only because the concept of MRR feels clunky to me. Most lootgen armors and shields are polluted with the essentially worthless energy absorption now; how about just remove those and make it a simple magical absorption? Leave specific energy absorption to greensteel, fire shield and draconic twists.



I'm concerned about the PRR cap being way too high for robe wearers. I'd like to see a "maxed" evasion+robe character's dodge + PRR net effect be equivalent to a "maxed" heavy armor character's dodge + PRR. On first reading, it seems to me that the 100 PRR + 25% dodge is way better than uncapped PRR + 5% dodge the heavy armor can attain. Of course factor in the ability of the heavy armor wearer to increase his dodge cap. Still, a PRR cap of 50 for robes, 75 for light armor, 150 for medium and uncapped for heavy sounds better to me.

Agreed.

Remember Devs: PRR from Armor and Items is supposed to represent resistance to physical damage. So Heavy armor should massively excel at that. It should excel at that AS MUCH as Evasion excels at dodging things that can be evaded. But you should have to pick one or the other. Don't just allow Evaders to block physical damage with PRR, and don't just allow Heavy Tanks to ignore Evadable damage. Either make Evaders put on heavy armor for heavy physical damage fights, and/or make Heavy Tanks take that armor off when there's lots of magic flying around.

Thar
06-09-2014, 05:40 PM
I think this is the intent. Not to have evasion tanks that can deal with all forms of damage the game can throw out by simply ignoring it. Ignore reflex by evasion, or physical damage by PRR and tank stats. Not ignore both.

Evastion tanks today sacrfice large amounts of PRR and a bit of AC to gain evasion (not to mention two levels in another class), capstone, etc. They don't ignore physical damage at all, just better at reflex save spell damage.

ForgettableNPC
06-09-2014, 05:43 PM
Again. Do you not know how Dodge Caps currently work? ....

Isn't it based on the Armor's Max Dex Bonus?

Scraap
06-09-2014, 05:46 PM
Isn't it based on the Armor's Max Dex Bonus?

Armor and shields combined MDB (whichever is lower) + feats +PRE +ED + itemization.

onny
06-09-2014, 05:47 PM
The intention is that the listed dodge caps are for base armor, before any feats or enhancements that increase the cap are applied.

Sev~

I think what sev is saying is now your fullplate with a max dex of 1 will have a max dodge bonus of 5.

Your halfplate with a max dex of 2 will have a max dodge bonus of 5.

Your uber fullplate of excelling mobility with a max dex of 7 with have a max dodge bonus of 7.

Same with the other teirs. All armor will have a base amount of dodge bonus. instead of dodge bonus based off max dex. BUT if the max dex is higher then the base dodge bonus it will increase it accordingly.

And anything that would currently push the dodge bonus above the base max dodge bonus for the armor type will also push your max dodge bonus up.

So its all win. those with lower dex bonuses can benefit from more dodge. and those with higher can still go as high as the sky they like.

Aerinsma
06-09-2014, 05:48 PM
I am a bit concerned about non-evasion light and no armor builds, but I personally always build for evasion. I do want to point out that a first level character can get +1 plate mail, but a ranger won't have evasion until ninth level. Evasion characters also have to invest a lot of points and items to get their evasion high enough to be effective. Again characters wearing heavy armor and carrying shields would get these advantages automatically.

Fionivar
06-09-2014, 05:50 PM
The intention is that the listed dodge caps are for base armor, before any feats or enhancements that increase the cap are applied.

Sev~

I guess there is where I'm a bit confused. In the current system, you have a Dodge Cap of 25% or Max Dex, whichever is lower. From what I read it seemed like your Dodge Cap would be 20% if you were wearing light armor and in essence lose 5% dodge over the current system if you had the Max Dex enhancements that took your armor to 25+ Max Dex and the exact same Dodge Cap increasing feats (there are none that I know of) and Enhancements (very few of those).

Severlin
06-09-2014, 05:53 PM
I am a bit concerned about non-evasion light and no armor builds, but I personally always build for evasion. I do want to point out that a first level character can get +1 plate mail, but a ranger won't have evasion until ninth level. Evasion characters also have to invest a lot of points and items to get their evasion high enough to be effective. Again characters wearing heavy armor and carrying shields would get these advantages automatically.

Evasion builds have to stack Reflex saving throw bonuses, while heavy armor builds will want to stack PRR (and thus MRR) to reach similar levels of mitigation. Both should make sacrifices to gear towards mitigation.

Sev~

ForgettableNPC
06-09-2014, 05:58 PM
Armor and shields combined MDB (whichever is lower) + feats +PRE +ED + itemization.

Right, so the Epic Duelist's Leathers I'm wearing now currently has a Max Dex Bonus of 28, and the Dodge Cap is at 25%, so if the Dodge Cap for light armor was capped at 20%, it would decrease if I were to use it again should this change occur.


Again. Do you not know how Dodge Caps currently work? ....

So based on that, I think I have a pretty decent concept of how Dodge Caps currently work, good sir.

Severlin
06-09-2014, 05:59 PM
I guess there is where I'm a bit confused. In the current system, you have a Dodge Cap of 25% or Max Dex, whichever is lower. From what I read it seemed like your Dodge Cap would be 20% if you were wearing light armor and in essence lose 5% dodge over the current system if you had the Max Dex enhancements that took your armor to 25+ Max Dex and the exact same Dodge Cap increasing feats (there are none that I know of) and Enhancements (very few of those).

This dodge cap is meant to be a bonus, not a nerf. It will replace the base max dex of the armor, but only if it increases that value. We wanted to increase the dodge cap for some of the heavy and medium armors.

Feats and enhancements that increased dodge cap will increase this new dodge cap. If armor has a higher dodge cap than the numbers listed we will use the higher value.

Since this has generated a lot of questions let me bring this up with the team to make sure we have a clear way to explain this. There might be a simpler way to accomplish this by working with the Max Dex of the armor instead of having an alternate straight value.

Thanks for the feedback!

Sev~

Seikojin
06-09-2014, 06:01 PM
Thanks for bringing this in. And Hello new name I haven't seen before :)

Desonde
06-09-2014, 06:01 PM
I like these changes, but it's going to require the other half of the equation to take part.

The Druids Curse chain is a prime example where this isn't as ideal since CR 28 (EH) mobs spawn in groups of 8 all spamming evadable spells. Each spell does 150-200 unmitigated damage. So when solo with the numbers you've outlined (260 -> 520) and (150-45[resist])*.2238=23.499 damage from each caster, which is fine except that it's multiplied by 8 (to 187.992) for every couple of seconds. Then you factor in the dungeon scaling (which for damage is it capped at 70% like hp or is it 140% for damage?) it changes it to 46.998 per hit (if 70%, 70.497 if 140%) which means the heavily armored toon in mid epic content must be healed after every magical attack cycle.

And those are the numbers that heavily favor the new system. Against physical attacks the prr is only 260 and the attacks from an unscaled CR 28 mob are still ~70 which is (70-5)*.3658 = 23.777, which if coupled with the new AC system allows for decent total mitigation is perfect (with 140% scaling it's 59.6254, which should be where top end peaking (where a CR 70 mob has a base damage of 150-250 per attack)).

Even with these proposed changes, without a change to the damage output, mob hp and the scaling of the two, having a character melee focus in high end content will generally be very draining on a party.

onny
06-09-2014, 06:04 PM
Right, so the Epic Duelist's Leathers I'm wearing now currently has a Max Dex Bonus of 28, and the Dodge Cap is at 25%, so if the Dodge Cap for light armor was capped at 20%, it would decrease if I were to use it again should this change occur.



So based on that, I think I have a pretty decent concept of how Dodge Caps currently work, good sir.

Talking about 2 different dodge caps. theres the max dodge cap (25 currently) and the dodge cap imposed by armor. hes talking about changing the max cap imposed by armor. Not the max cap. the max cap will still be 25 unless you have a pre or epic enhancement that increases your max dodge cap.

To answer another persons comment a 1st lvl fighter could put on heavy plate and a heavy shield (most lvl 1s don't use tower shields) and get 55 PRR. a ranger could put on light armor and a heavy shield and get 25 PRR. Different classes have different strengths like sev said. That's the way the game works.

Thar
06-09-2014, 06:08 PM
Evasion builds have to stack Reflex saving throw bonuses, while heavy armor builds will want to stack PRR (and thus MRR) to reach similar levels of mitigation. Both should make sacrifices to gear towards mitigation.

Sev~

Should evasion builds make prestige class sacrifices along with shield sacrifices? I'm totally ok with PRR (and mrr sacrifices) for evasion. The rest of the changes are too much.

Zzevel
06-09-2014, 06:09 PM
These changes will make or break a LOT of builds, can we put in now for another LR +20?

ForgettableNPC
06-09-2014, 06:11 PM
Talking about 2 different dodge caps. theres the max dodge cap (25 currently) and the dodge cap imposed by armor. hes talking about changing the max cap imposed by armor. Not the max cap. the max cap will still be 25 unless you have a pre or epic enhancement that increases your max dodge cap.

To answer another persons comment a 1st lvl fighter could put on heavy plate and a heavy shield (most lvl 1s don't use tower shields) and get 55 PRR. a ranger could put on light armor and a heavy shield and get 25 PRR. Different classes have different strengths like sev said. That's the way the game works.

That's what I'm saying, the Duelist's Leathers I'm wearing has a 28 Max Dex Bonus, so it doesn't interfere at all with the max Dodge Cap I am able to have. The Duelist's Leathers is a Light Armor, so if the max Dodge Cap for Light Armor becomes reduced to 20, then I will no longer have a 25% Dodge Cap while wearing Light Armor anymore for the Duelist's Leathers if this change goes through.

Fionivar
06-09-2014, 06:11 PM
This dodge cap is meant to be a bonus, not a nerf. It will replace the base max dex of the armor, but only if it increases that value. We wanted to increase the dodge cap for some of the heavy and medium armors.

Feats and enhancements that increased dodge cap will increase this new dodge cap. If armor has a higher dodge cap than the numbers listed we will use the higher value.

Since this has generated a lot of questions let me bring this up with the team to make sure we have a clear way to explain this. There might be a simpler way to accomplish this by working with the Max Dex of the armor instead of having an alternate straight value.

Thanks for the feedback!

Sev~

Ahh, I get it. The issue to me seams when you listed the armors and their dodge caps, you were actually referring to their base max DEX bonuses.


Resist Rating Caps, Dodge Caps, and Evasion
In addition, there are new or changed caps on certain scores based on the armor you are wearing.
Dodge Cap for armor and shields
Robes or Outfit: 25%
Light Armor: 20%
Medium Armor: 10% and no Evasion feat
Heavy Armor: 5% and no Evasion feat
These cap values can be increased with abilities or enhancements as they can today.

Dodge CAP would stay where it currently is at 25% (barring feats/enhancements). You keep saying "Dodge Cap" when I think you mean "Max Dex Bonus", or maybe some new "Max Dodge Bonus".

onny
06-09-2014, 06:11 PM
Would be interesting if they introduced a shield sizer into the game. npc that will size a shield for you. let it go one step in either direction.

Thar
06-09-2014, 06:15 PM
This dodge cap is meant to be a bonus, not a nerf. It will replace the base max dex of the armor, but only if it increases that value. We wanted to increase the dodge cap for some of the heavy and medium armors.

Feats and enhancements that increased dodge cap will increase this new dodge cap. If armor has a higher dodge cap than the numbers listed we will use the higher value.

Since this has generated a lot of questions let me bring this up with the team to make sure we have a clear way to explain this. There might be a simpler way to accomplish this by working with the Max Dex of the armor instead of having an alternate straight value.

Thanks for the feedback!

Sev~

A higher cap number is great, but unless there are +15% items, how will you reach it with no enhancements in the tree that give dodge and nothing but twists to stack with it? My characters who are at max cap get a lot of benefits from enhancements.

ForgettableNPC
06-09-2014, 06:15 PM
Would be interesting if they introduced a shield sizer into the game. npc that will size a shield for you. let it go one step in either direction.

Depends, how will the job pay?

ForgettableNPC
06-09-2014, 06:19 PM
This dodge cap is meant to be a bonus, not a nerf. It will replace the base max dex of the armor, but only if it increases that value. We wanted to increase the dodge cap for some of the heavy and medium armors.

Feats and enhancements that increased dodge cap will increase this new dodge cap. If armor has a higher dodge cap than the numbers listed we will use the higher value.

Since this has generated a lot of questions let me bring this up with the team to make sure we have a clear way to explain this. There might be a simpler way to accomplish this by working with the Max Dex of the armor instead of having an alternate straight value.

Thanks for the feedback!

Sev~

Oh, okay, then I have no problems, then.

FestusHood
06-09-2014, 06:19 PM
The DEVS post was referencing a shield. It was even quoted in my post, showing so. Additionally, I already followed up on the stance issue in another post previously. Nice try though.

Yes, you and the dev missed the point of his post. You asked if you were close. I answered. Granted, i hadn't yet read to the point where you acknowledged that.

bbqzor
06-09-2014, 06:23 PM
This dodge cap is meant to be a bonus, not a nerf. It will replace the base max dex of the armor, but only if it increases that value. We wanted to increase the dodge cap for some of the heavy and medium armors.

Feats and enhancements that increased dodge cap will increase this new dodge cap. If armor has a higher dodge cap than the numbers listed we will use the higher value.

Since this has generated a lot of questions let me bring this up with the team to make sure we have a clear way to explain this. There might be a simpler way to accomplish this by working with the Max Dex of the armor instead of having an alternate straight value.

Thanks for the feedback!

Sev~

Its very imperative that tower shields also be included in this pass. If you are encouraging/forcing people towards tower shields, and they still limit the dodge as low as they do, there will be problems. Especially with the enhancements setup the way they are. Eg, requiring armor dex increase to buy tower shield dex increase... if armor starts at 5, and is raised to 8 via that enhancement, but that enhancement only takes a 2 pt tower shield to 5, theres a disconnect (and that it costs 9-12 enhancement points to get that 3 more dodge is also out of balance). Please keep this in mind, especially if you have more shield trees coming up.

Raoull
06-09-2014, 06:25 PM
This dodge cap is meant to be a bonus, not a nerf. It will replace the base max dex of the armor, but only if it increases that value. We wanted to increase the dodge cap for some of the heavy and medium armors.

Feats and enhancements that increased dodge cap will increase this new dodge cap. If armor has a higher dodge cap than the numbers listed we will use the higher value.

Since this has generated a lot of questions let me bring this up with the team to make sure we have a clear way to explain this. There might be a simpler way to accomplish this by working with the Max Dex of the armor instead of having an alternate straight value.

Thanks for the feedback!

Sev~

Any chance you guys will use this occasion to fix Mithral?

Right now mithral armor is worse than normal armor. It gives PRR like the lighter armor, yet tends to have dodge caps like the heavier one.

Can you reverse that? Mithral plate, such as the Cove armor, should be giving PRR of heavy armor yet the dodge cap of medium armor.... Currently it is horrifically bad, along with all other mithral suits.

If you don't really want to support mithral going forward, can you just remove it from all of the named armors that currently have it and replace it with Superior Nimbleness or the like?

HatsuharuZ
06-09-2014, 06:30 PM
Say... I've never seen you around here before today. Could you please tell us your job title and/or what you have worked on in the past in DDO?

LordTigerDawn
06-09-2014, 06:35 PM
Dodge in Heavy Armor is currently limited to the maximum dexterity bonus of your armor. This isn't meant to be a nerf, if you happen to have a special heavy armor with higher than a 5% max dodge the new system will use the higher value.

Sev~

I am even more confused now:

Are we talking Max Dex Bonus of Armour is base 5, or character dodge cap is 5. they are two different things. Character dodge cap is not increased by many enhancements (sacred armour mastery for instance), and if the dodge cap is 25% you just have to increase the max dex bonus of your armour to use it.

If it is Character dodge cap is 5, then the number of enhancements like sacred armour mastery are now really useless and they are all over the place.

If we are talking max dex bonus is 5, then really this is not change to how the current game works.

If you take the "maximum" of the max dex bonus and the char dodge cap to be the actual dodge cap then this is still how it works today, but looking at it from a bottom down and not a top down view (like it is current).

If you are just going to retro/or not retro but make the new full plate armours that come out to be base 5 max dex bonus instead of the current 1/2 that is standard, it really is a waste of time to discuss or even implement. Just do it.

J-mann
06-09-2014, 06:36 PM
Evasion builds have to stack Reflex saving throw bonuses, while heavy armor builds will want to stack PRR (and thus MRR) to reach similar levels of mitigation. Both should make sacrifices to gear towards mitigation.

Sev~

Except that prr and mrr work vs physical damage and non-evadable magic damage *polar ray to the face*. The two are not even remotely close to the same benefit to investment and under the proposed system Heavy armor and prr are vastly superior to evasion. Raising the cap on dodge for armor makes the benefit vs cost ratio even further bumped towards heavy armor. Remember heavy armor can still put on incorperal and displacement items so the only difference we can talk about is prr and mrr and ac vs evasion and dodge.

CeltEireson
06-09-2014, 06:36 PM
Right, so the Epic Duelist's Leathers I'm wearing now currently has a Max Dex Bonus of 28, and the Dodge Cap is at 25%, so if the Dodge Cap for light armor was capped at 20%, it would decrease if I were to use it again should this change occur.

So based on that, I think I have a pretty decent concept of how Dodge Caps currently work, good sir.

Your epic duelist leathers don't have a current max dex bonus of 28 - from memory the base cap on them is 20 - I assume the other 8 comes from enhancements or epic destinys. So under this new system your max dodge bonus would be exactly the same.

The cap of 20% on light armour is before any enhancements/destinies are applied.

ForgettableNPC
06-09-2014, 06:38 PM
I am even more confused now:

Are we talking Max Dex Bonus of Armour is base 5, or character dodge cap is 5. they are two different things. Character dodge cap is not increased by many enhancements (sacred armour mastery for instance), and if the dodge cap is 25% you just have to increase the max dex bonus of your armour to use it.

If it is Character dodge cap is 5, then the number of enhancements like sacred armour mastery are now really useless and they are all over the place.

If we are talking max dex bonus is 5, then really this is not change to how the current game works.

If you take the "maximum" of the max dex bonus and the char dodge cap to be the actual dodge cap then this is still how it works today, but looking at it from a bottom down and not a top down view (like it is current).

If you are just going to retro/or not retro but make the new full plate armours that come out to be base 5 max dex bonus instead of the current 1/2 that is standard, it really is a waste of time to discuss or even implement. Just do it.

I think he's saying, that, in case of Heavy Armor, if your Max Dex Bonus is 3, then the Dodge Cap will be increased to 5, but won't have any effect on the Max Dex Bonus.

But if you have any Heavy Armor that has, say, Max Dex Bonus of 6, then the Dodge Cap will stay at 6 instead of being limited to 5.

EllisDee37
06-09-2014, 06:38 PM
Except that prr and mrr work vs physical damage and non-evadable magic damage *polar ray to the face*. The two are not even remotely close to the same benefit to investment and under the proposed system Heavy armor and prr are vastly superior to evasion. Raising the cap on dodge for armor makes the benefit vs cost ratio even further bumped towards heavy armor. Remember heavy armor can still put on incorperal and displacement items so the only difference we can talk about is prr and mrr and ac vs evasion and dodge.The bolded part is only true if the evasion character has no PRR/MRR or AC at all. They will certainly have PRR. (Most likely 100 PRR -- the cap -- under the proposed change, and if it's a monk, triple-digit AC.)

EllisDee37
06-09-2014, 06:40 PM
Yeah, maybe the best way to avoid confusion is to change all existing/future armor MDB to match the new dodge caps if the new caps are higher, and then you just have to say that the MDB is going up and most people would understand what that means.

redoubt
06-09-2014, 06:41 PM
This dodge cap is meant to be a bonus, not a nerf. It will replace the base max dex of the armor, but only if it increases that value. We wanted to increase the dodge cap for some of the heavy and medium armors.

Feats and enhancements that increased dodge cap will increase this new dodge cap. If armor has a higher dodge cap than the numbers listed we will use the higher value.

Since this has generated a lot of questions let me bring this up with the team to make sure we have a clear way to explain this. There might be a simpler way to accomplish this by working with the Max Dex of the armor instead of having an alternate straight value.

Thanks for the feedback!

Sev~

Good plan.

Some examples would be to talk about stuff like

Flawless black dragonhide. It currently has a max dodge of 19.
-does this become 20 since it is light armor?
-would an effect like "lithe" make it 26% under the new system?
-then the tempest improved dodge take it up to 29%

Will there be any new restrictions on stacking things that increase max dodge bonus or dodge bonus?

CeltEireson
06-09-2014, 06:46 PM
Except that prr and mrr work vs physical damage and non-evadable magic damage *polar ray to the face*. The two are not even remotely close to the same benefit to investment and under the proposed system Heavy armor and prr are vastly superior to evasion. Raising the cap on dodge for armor makes the benefit vs cost ratio even further bumped towards heavy armor. Remember heavy armor can still put on incorperal and displacement items so the only difference we can talk about is prr and mrr and ac vs evasion and dodge.

Although some of the classes with evasion do tend to have enhancements/epic destiny that increase dodge and/or add additional options for concealment.

But I'd agree - if the idea is to have some counterbalance to evasion then armour should only be providing damage mitigation for effects that are evadable in the first place.

To be honest if theyre going down this route they should really just do away with AC altogether to make it easier to balance things. You can then have a sliding scale from a high dodge character with little reduction on damage to low dodge character with high reduction in damage. You could then increase the dodge cap / PRR significantly to compensate for no AC.

The main problem with MRR is save. Even if you don't build for it heavy armour will always provide a certain amount of protection against magic regardless of the level of content, evasion on the other hand requires a certain level of reflex save to be useful which varies depending on difficulty level - in normal you may be evading pretty much everything but failing most of the time in elite. Its very difficult to balance the two because of this.

LordTigerDawn
06-09-2014, 06:54 PM
I think he's saying, that, in case of Heavy Armor, if your Max Dex Bonus is 3, then the Dodge Cap will be increased to 5, but won't have any effect on the Max Dex Bonus.

But if you have any Heavy Armor that has, say, Max Dex Bonus of 6, then the Dodge Cap will stay at 6 instead of being limited to 5.

Trying to not get into semantics, would that not be saying the min Character dodge cap is now 5 in full plate and max being "max dex bonus".

If that were true with all the light armour max dex bonus increasing abilities out there, the max Character Dodge cap would be in the 40's if not the 50's. Evasion + 50% dodge is a lot more of a buff to robes/light armour than they are buffing heavy/medium with.

nokowi
06-09-2014, 06:54 PM
Stat inflation ruined a D20 based system. DnD characters do not get stats in the 60's by level 28. PC's do not get abilities with DC's in the 60-100 range in DnD (by level 28). In PnP, If you run into Asmodeus, you will most likely fail the DC 50 will save, and willingly serve him. With DDO stats, a rogue (DC 70 Reflex) can auto-succeed while another toon (DC 35 Reflex) can auto-fail. This doesn't happen often in PnP because the Rogue might have a DC 30 Reflex and the other toon might have a DC 18 Reflex. DDO can not operate well on the D20 system because of broken mechanics from stat-inflation.

Having ruined the D20 system (auto-succeed or auto-fail happens on a regular basis), dev's implemented a curve based system for AC. PRR was added as a way to allow tanks (heavy armor) to be useful. These changes seemed to work fairly well, but revealed a flaw in that light or no-armor toons with evasion (using dodge) could tank as well as heavy armor users.

The best answer would be to fix stat creep. Lowering stats to reasonable levels would not be popular, and is probably not a realistic solution that players would accept. I see 2 solutions.
1. Go to a D30 or D40 (instead of D20) system to reduce the auto-fail, auto succeed issue.
2. Stat bonuses could be cut in half for saves. (58 Reflex gives you +12 to saves instead of +24 to saves).

I like #2 better because it sticks with the D20 system. Mob DC"s would need to be dropped by 10-15. Both will help fix most of the problems with DC based builds (necro, monk QP, assassin). Either solution would also allow dev's to reduce evasion-based damage (most classes will fail some of the time now, making evasion useful but not required). This will fix most of the heavy armor issues (taking too much elemental damage) while remaining true to DnD.

Please stop making increasingly complex mechanics and fix the core problem. Complex mechanics cause problems when players find all of the "holes" in your new system designed to fix the last set of mistakes.

Blackheartox
06-09-2014, 06:55 PM
Have a question dear sir, as i read this thread i see the analogy appear that, what is giving prr will give equal amount of mrr.


So for example ring from horns will also give 24 mrr and new bracers will give 30 mrr.
Im assuming augments will also give mrr? Or not? Or seperate mrr augments?

Real question is, will this change apply to past lifes as well?
Purple dragon knight past life and past life from divine sphere each give 3 prr per stack.
Would this change also add mrr to that 3 ?

Just wondering

thegreatneil
06-09-2014, 07:01 PM
Real question is, will this change apply to past lifes as well?
Purple dragon knight past life and past life from divine sphere each give 3 prr per stack.
Would this change also add mrr to that 3 ?



Good question. I would love an answer to this.

Tilomere
06-09-2014, 07:01 PM
Note that we have designed this so characters cannot gain both Evasion and the shield bonus coupled with high levels of resistance rating. This is intentional. If you see a hole in our design that allows for this please warn us!



I'm going to warn you that you are going to succeed, which is going to destroy the already weak tank archtype, and leave no melee character other than a Druid capable of withstanding both sustained physical and magical damage. Which is fine, since I play a druid a ton, but not so fine, as in everyone else is going to need to switch to a monkcher or shuriken thrower. Melee is already considered the weakest form of combat. Tanks are the weakest melee. You are nerfing the weakest of the weakest play styles. Which is somewhat humorous.

I think it would be better to cap ranged mitigation. Aka mitigation without a melee weapon in your main hand. That being said, the hole in your design is that I can replace PRR > 100 on a cloth/docent wearer with more healing capacity, defensive roll, HP, displacement, CC on hit, range, or other non-prr damage mitigation.

thegreatneil
06-09-2014, 07:13 PM
I'm going to warn you that you are going to succeed, which is going to destroy the already weak tank archtype, and leave no melee character other than a Druid capable of withstanding both sustained physical and magical damage. Which is fine, since I play a druid a ton, but not so fine, as in everyone else is going to need to switch to a monkcher or shuriken thrower. Melee is already considered weak. Melee that can't stand up to both physical and magical damage is worthless.

As someone who plays melee I can state this is so wrong, not even funny.
Everything I have seen here will increase survivability.
More dodge and less damage.

J-mann
06-09-2014, 07:13 PM
The bolded part is only true if the evasion character has no PRR/MRR or AC at all. They will certainly have PRR. (Most likely 100 PRR -- the cap -- under the proposed change, and if it's a monk, triple-digit AC.)

Actually looking at the numbers, ASSUMING that a robe wearer has 100 prr and ASSUMING that a heavy wearer hits 250 prr the numbers look okish, depending on how hard it is to hit 250. 100 prr would be 40% reduction and 250 prr would be 57.8% reduction. Assuming a dodge of 25 vs 5 assuming 100 damage a swing over 100 swings we would have 4500 damage, vs 4009 damage on the heavy armor. The problem arises on the magic side. It is fairly difficult to get a no fail reflex and evasion ONLY effects reflex save spells. This is where things get questionable, and I think in the long run as stat inflation continues that heavy armor will prove to be the best option.

The other problem, we have to look at the whole package of investment. Under the proposed system all heavy armor needs is a prr investment and it gets GREAT differences. Where as an evade build will need to invest in prr, dodge, get evasion, AND build a workable reflex save. The costs and benefits for the system and the additional perks of heavy armor are WAY out of wack.

Firewall
06-09-2014, 07:14 PM
Nice Changes! Especially making investment in AC worth some more in EE content is already a big deal!

Madja
06-09-2014, 07:26 PM
I'm kinda sad to see the 100 PRR cap for robe wearers. My current plan is/was to grind out the 9 divine epic past-lives, but now I don't see the point as it would put me way over the PRR cap :(
I think it's great to see armor get some love though!

Thar
06-09-2014, 07:27 PM
These changes will make or break a LOT of builds, can we put in now for another LR +20?

2nd this.

Thar
06-09-2014, 07:28 PM
These changes will make or break a LOT of builds, can we put in now for another LR +20?

2nd this along with a box of shields where we can pick a raid worthy light endgame shield to use...

Thumbed_Servant
06-09-2014, 07:28 PM
...

On another note, regarding MRR, where would Orbs fit into that equation? I think they should give more MRR than PRR (if any) considering they're magic-oriented rather than physical.

Good catch on the orbs.

How will orbs work in this system?

ScoobieDoo
06-09-2014, 07:30 PM
Greetings.

I wanted to jump in and talk about some upcoming changes we are working on.

<cut>


Everything about this post is win. Very well thought out. Me like. :)

B0ltdrag0n
06-09-2014, 07:31 PM
Right, so the Epic Duelist's Leathers I'm wearing now currently has a Max Dex Bonus of 28, and the Dodge Cap is at 25%, so if the Dodge Cap for light armor was capped at 20%, it would decrease if I were to use it again should this change occur.



So based on that, I think I have a pretty decent concept of how Dodge Caps currently work, good sir.


You would be absolutely wrong. I think it has been explained extensively in this thread.

btolson
06-09-2014, 07:48 PM
While you are working on this, can you please work in proper support for armor material types (mithral, adamantine, etc). Some new bonuses are needed (e.g. adamantine dr is useless), and typing needs to be fixed (e.g. mithral full plate should gain PRR/MRR as if it were heavy armor, not medium). This is still very important to do, along with adding these material types to random loot-gen items, as druids still cannot wear any random loot-gen medium armor (it's all metal).

Please, please. It's been at least two years since material types were busted.

Dimack
06-09-2014, 07:59 PM
Anyone else notice that Teh_Troll vanishes and suddenly we have a new dev who isn't a monk fanboi... hmm

LuKaSu
06-09-2014, 08:02 PM
This looks like it has a lot of potential! Thanks for making Heavy Armord types valid again. It oens up tons of possibilities. Again, Thank You Very Much!


What if any changes are planned for Mithril, especially named mithril.

Also this. I know Mithral is supposed to be give the AC of one level, with the weight of the next one down (like Mithral Chain Shirt giving the AC of medium, but being light) Is there a chance that this might be taken into effect with the PRR/MRR system as well? Like, give the PRR of medium, while being light? Not giving all the benefits, like the Stalwart stuff, but just the PRR/MRR. I'd love to give my Favored Soul (initially only proficient in Medium) some damage resistance, since he also isn't an evasion character.

I know I saw a lot of hate from people with super maxxed evasion tanks, but I think these changes will be great for the vast majority of players. Yes, with anything, you'll have your griefers, but I think this will help a lot more people than it will break.

It just seems to me that heavy duty warriors shouldn't have to run around in robes to have good defences. This really has potential to help that.

Once change that I would recommend, however, is making buckers function the same as light shields. We've just set up this whole idea of Swashbuckling, with a one handed weapon and a buckler. I think it would be nice to have some synergy there.

Thanks again, I'm really looking forward to this!

Nightmanis
06-09-2014, 08:10 PM
That's what I'm saying, the Duelist's Leathers I'm wearing has a 28 Max Dex Bonus, so it doesn't interfere at all with the max Dodge Cap I am able to have. The Duelist's Leathers is a Light Armor, so if the max Dodge Cap for Light Armor becomes reduced to 20, then I will no longer have a 25% Dodge Cap while wearing Light Armor anymore for the Duelist's Leathers if this change goes through.

I'm not sure if it's just plainly obvious to me or not, but he's said multiple times that it will use whatever is higher.

One poster did point out that he's using max dodge cap where most of us think of max dex bonus.

So your armour that gives 28 MDB will also allow for a 25% dodge cap. Because that number is higher than the 20 that is being laid out to overwrite any armour that doesn't have that much.

Thar
06-09-2014, 08:12 PM
Greetings.

Physical Resist Rating
The first change is to prepare Physical Resist Rating for use in the armor changes. The formula for the rating will change to the following formula, with the resulting multiplier applied to all physical damage.

150 / (150 + PRR)

This progression follows the current formula very closely out to 300 and then this formula is more generous at those higher end values.

As examples, a PRR of 50 would offer a damage multiplier of 0.75, a PRR of 100 would offer a damage multiplier of 0.6, and a PRR of 200 would offer a damage multiplier of 0.4285.

Magical Resist Rating
In addition, we are adding a new value called Magical Resist Rating. The formula for the rating will be the same as for PRR, with the resulting multiplier applied to all magical damage.

150 / (150 + PRR)

This new rating will apply to most non-physical damage sources including spells, elemental damage, poisons, lingering damage, and similar effects.

It is our intention that existing magical items that provide PRR would also provide MRR.



In addition, characters who are proficient with shields can also use the larger shields for defense against magical attacks that would normally require a Reflex saving throw. Instead of (or in addition to) using your Reflex saving throw to mitigate the damage you can deflect the damage off your shield. This is represented by increasing your Physical and Magical Resist Ratings against those types of attacks when using a shield. Note that you gain this additional mitigation whether you make your Reflex saving throw or not.

Physical and Magical Resist Rating multiplier against magical attacks that normally allow a Reflex saving throw.

Buckler: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Light Shield: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Heavy Shield: 2.0
Tower Shield: 2.0

This means that characters with heavier armor and/or heavy or tower shields have an alternate mitigation against large area of effect attacks to help them compete in high level content with characters who use Evasion.

As an example, let’s take the case of a character built today to use heavy armor and tower shield and maximize PRR. Assuming a character had a PPR rating of 200 previously they would have a damage multiplier of ~ .4370 to physical damage.

While this mitigation is decent, characters built this way tend to die quickly once effects like Fireballs and dragon’s breath are flying around the battlefield.

Under the new system they would have a PRR and MRR of 260 which would translate to a damage multiplier of .4285 for both physical and magical damage. Against area of effect attacks (magic requiring a Reflex saving throw) this would be increased to 520, which translates to .2238.

In this example, when the heavily armored and shielded character is hit by dragon’s breath for 500 damage it would be reduced by his/her enchanted armor and shield down to 112. Meanwhile characters in light or no armor could use Evasion to attempt to negate the damage entirely.



Sev~

So what your saying is that you can have a light armor, light shield tank with good dodge with no prestige class benefits ie pally/defender, or have a heavy armor, much higher ac, and magic damage dr with prr.

so

light armor tank will come up against 1000 hp attack melee or magic. *who gave up dps, capstone, 2 classes in non class

vs melee 1000 hp vs 90 ish prr = 600 hp damage but hit more often than option 2 since way lower ac
vs 1000hp magic = save so % of the time for zero. so full damage 10% of time with normal evasion? so 1000 damage one time out of - resist= 950 x 50% sheath = 475 - 33% = 313.5ish 10% of time?

vs.

vs melee heavy tank 1000 hp vs 200 prr = 400 hp damage and hit less since way higher ac.
vs magic 1000 hp vs 200 mrr = 400 hp damage - resist = 350 x 50% sheath = 175 -33% absorb item = 115 damage

so any non monk evasion tank is not viable after changes.

Xaxx
06-09-2014, 08:20 PM
Greetings.

~ The Stalwart Defender and the Sacred Defender will no longer be shield based trees. Instead, the enhancements that current require shields will be changed to require medium or heavy armor.


Sev~

Why not simply give the option of any of the three shield or medium or heavy armor required for use, so as not to bone any current builds already in use. I like alot of the changes, but if this is ment to make heavy armor wearers and tanks more effective again, people who chose to be an evasion tank (light armor stalwart) rather than moving to this would get hurt in this. Im all for making other things viable but not to make a current build much less useful. Hence make it shield or medium/heavy... or both for those inclined. Just my 2 cents.

ForgettableNPC
06-09-2014, 08:23 PM
I'm not sure if it's just plainly obvious to me or not, but he's said multiple times that it will use whatever is higher.

One poster did point out that he's using max dodge cap where most of us think of max dex bonus.

So your armour that gives 28 MDB will also allow for a 25% dodge cap. Because that number is higher than the 20 that is being laid out to overwrite any armour that doesn't have that much.

Yeah, I caught onto that after going through a few pages.

But thanks for trying to help.

Severlin
06-09-2014, 08:25 PM
Why not simply give the option of any of the three shield or medium or heavy armor required for use, so as not to bone any current builds already in use. I like alot of the changes, but if this is ment to make heavy armor wearers and tanks more effective again, people who chose to be an evasion tank (light armor stalwart) rather than moving to this would get hurt in this. Im all for making other things viable but not to make a current build much less useful. Hence make it shield or medium/heavy... or both for those inclined. Just my 2 cents.

This is a good suggestion; make the shield based enhancements into multi-selectors. I will bring this up to the team.

Sev~

Hawkwier
06-09-2014, 08:30 PM
I like the premise, but this also has a knock on effect in nerfing THF by comparison.

Unless THF is boosted by increasing associated DPS it is in danger of becoming obsolete by the power-creep in alternative styles.

Also I think the dodge cap limits are too restrictive. Consider doubling them if not using a shield.

Is any improvement to fix AC out the window now? Seems so.

Finally can you please also take an opportunity to overhaul Barb DR. Like my concerns over THF, this has been stealth nerfed by power-creep to be almost inconsequential at epic levels. Seems like this might be an opportune time to redress that?

Yaga_Nub
06-09-2014, 08:33 PM
Instead of adding in ridiculous new formulas and code that will just break at some point and have to be recoded why not do the real reasonable thing which is to reduce the damage these FRACKIN' mob do. It doesn't matter if it's physical or magical, they do to much GD damage. We have to do insane amounts of damage that you keep bumping up with more and more augments and new types of weapons which in turns makes you bump up the HP of mobs even more. It's like an arms race that you're running against yourself to win. Yes we like big numbers and different types of damage but we don't like swinging for 5 min per mob (in EE of course. it's not quite as bad in EH but it's still not fun). The inverse goes for us. We can't keep absorbing multi-hit 500+ damage from mobs that bypass our fort as well and have true seeing to get past our blurs and displacements. We can't live through 12K hp breath weapon attacks from a mob. We already have several ways to reduce the damage from elemental damage. Give us a way to protect against force and light damage and we don't need your MRR. Reduce the damage that mobs are doing by 50% and we don't need a need PRR formula or MRR at all. Change Magic Resistance to work like it is supposed to and you've got your frickin' MRR. People will want to be drow and paladins a bit more. Remove PRR from anyone wearing robes or outfits. They shouldn't have it in the first place even if they have a blue augment, planar focus or any other item that gives PRR. Or set it to 1 for robes and outfits, 50% for light armor, 75% for medium and 100% for heavy armor.

However, back to my original plea - stop trying to be clever with this stuff because you're not and you're just screwing things up.

thegreatneil
06-09-2014, 08:33 PM
Why not simply give the option of any of the three shield or medium or heavy armor required for use, so as not to bone any current builds already in use. I like alot of the changes, but if this is ment to make heavy armor wearers and tanks more effective again, people who chose to be an evasion tank (light armor stalwart) rather than moving to this would get hurt in this. Im all for making other things viable but not to make a current build much less useful. Hence make it shield or medium/heavy... or both for those inclined. Just my 2 cents.

This is a good idea. take what we have now and makes it better.
Buff not nerf!

Severlin
06-09-2014, 08:43 PM
why not do the real reasonable thing which is to reduce the damage these FRACKIN' mob do.


We have been looking at the epic elite melee damage.

That said, the reason we don't only do this is because there are a number of well designed builds currently in play that already thrive in the epic elite content. Lowering the damage and capabilities of the creatures would do nothing to convince the players to move to less powerful builds, nor would it provide a compelling reason to examine the benefits of lots of builds, classes and items that are being largely ignored at the end game. Our goal is not to make the game easier, but rather to provide a wider variety of compelling and fun character builds.

When we examined the current builds being used and read through the player feedback in the balance thread one thing was clear; armored characters were not well represented in the end game. Not only does this shut down a lot of classes, but the heavily armored character is an iconic figure in D&D lore and art. We wanted to give players a reason to develop those types of characters.

Sev~

Mryal
06-09-2014, 08:50 PM
Ok so..first things first:

If i have to do an epic abbot version that is exactly like the heroic one to get new loot, i am quitting.Or shooting myself.wichever comes first in a 1d2 roll.


So armor changes! its long overdue.Looks cool.Paladins viable.Few points :

1- What will be the balance between fighter and paladin? Seems paladin will be an unkilable god.(pure).Compared to figther wich will have horrible saves.

2 - so different mechanics and bonuses for armor types.OK.Makes sense.What are the bonuses?

robe - enables evasion,lets you be centered,and caps your PRR to 100. Capping PRR is pointless when armor is alredy giving way more than robe.
light - enables evasion, and caps PRR to 200.Again, cap to PRR is not needed
medium - adds more PRR/mrr.
Heavy - adds more PRR/MRR than anything else.
Ok so its clear that people using medium armor will be the worst.But.how much of a problem is that? Heavy armor proeficency is a feat.It can be fixed.Like some others pointed, using heavy armor only takes one feat wich is autogrante by some classes at 1.

Ok so, heavy armor = gives more magic resist.What is magic resist? it means you take less damage versus magic, duh.Seems obvious.This is a dnd game, nothing is that simple.What it really means is:
Reduces damage versus : reflex,fort,will, and no save spells.

Now, quick comparison!

evasion - lets you take no damage versus a REFLEX based spell.If you fail the save, you take full damage.Rolling a 1 auto fails.All you invested can be wasted in a 5% chance.You can take one feat to solve that.
Improved evasion - lets you take no damage versus a REFLEX based spell.If you fail the save, you take half.
The line of thought its clear here.Heavy armor is the best 'armor' for defense, and imp evasion is the best evasion for defense.Lets not even count the fact that armor blocks non reflex spells aswell.Lets only look at this :

What are the requirements for evasion? 2 rogue, 2 monk.For improved evasion? 5 ranger TWF, 9 monk or 10 rogue.
What are the requirements for using Heavy armor? 1 fighter/paladin to get it for free.Or one feat that can be taken by ANYONE.

What have we concluded? Evasion limits your build.But we alredy knew that.Splashes can be ok.But improved evasion? Fitting improved evasion is hard.Its much, much easier to get a heavy armor instead.
So how about we let Improved Evasion be taken as a feat.With Evasion as requirement.

Last but not least :




~ The Stalwart Defender and the Sacred Defender will no longer be shield based trees. Instead, the enhancements that current require shields will be changed to require medium or heavy armor.

Sev~

This kills builds.Anything that kills builds is not nice.You killed my monk build by changing this stance before.Again, those changes are nice.But theres a lot of overkill here.Theres gonna be so much bonuses for using armor, we alredy established a few lines ago that going heavy armor is the easy route.Theres also more buffs to shields, wich i am not mentioning here.How about you change those stances back to how they were.With NO requirements.Everyone will be happy.
By the way nice to meet you Severlin! looks like youre the barbarian/fighter designer!
So, who is the bard designer? Who am i giving my gratitude for a job well done?

Hendrik
06-09-2014, 09:27 PM
Instead of adding in ridiculous new formulas and code that will just break at some point and have to be recoded why not do the real reasonable thing which is to reduce the damage these FRACKIN' mob do. It doesn't matter if it's physical or magical, they do to much GD damage. We have to do insane amounts of damage that you keep bumping up with more and more augments and new types of weapons which in turns makes you bump up the HP of mobs even more. It's like an arms race that you're running against yourself to win. Yes we like big numbers and different types of damage but we don't like swinging for 5 min per mob (in EE of course. it's not quite as bad in EH but it's still not fun). The inverse goes for us. We can't keep absorbing multi-hit 500+ damage from mobs that bypass our fort as well and have true seeing to get past our blurs and displacements. We can't live through 12K hp breath weapon attacks from a mob. We already have several ways to reduce the damage from elemental damage. Give us a way to protect against force and light damage and we don't need your MRR. Reduce the damage that mobs are doing by 50% and we don't need a need PRR formula or MRR at all. Change Magic Resistance to work like it is supposed to and you've got your frickin' MRR. People will want to be drow and paladins a bit more. Remove PRR from anyone wearing robes or outfits. They shouldn't have it in the first place even if they have a blue augment, planar focus or any other item that gives PRR. Or set it to 1 for robes and outfits, 50% for light armor, 75% for medium and 100% for heavy armor.

However, back to my original plea - stop trying to be clever with this stuff because you're not and you're just screwing things up.

Die Yaga, die!

:)

Thumbed_Servant
06-09-2014, 09:32 PM
These changes will make or break a LOT of builds, can we put in now for another LR +20?

....greedy, but maybe appropriate :)

count_spicoli
06-09-2014, 09:36 PM
We have been looking at the epic elite melee damage.

That said, the reason we don't only do this is because there are a number of well designed builds currently in play that already thrive in the epic elite content. Lowering the damage and capabilities of the creatures would do nothing to convince the players to move to less powerful builds, nor would it provide a compelling reason to examine the benefits of lots of builds, classes and items that are being largely ignored at the end game. Our goal is not to make the game easier, but rather to provide a wider variety of compelling and fun character builds.

When we examined the current builds being used and read through the player feedback in the balance thread one thing was clear; armored characters were not well represented in the end game. Not only does this shut down a lot of classes, but the heavily armored character is an iconic figure in D&D lore and art. We wanted to give players a reason to develop those types of characters.

Sev~


Well said. Me and many of my friends zerg blast alot EE Con tent. IN NO WAY DO I WANT TO SEE IT NERFED. I PLAY AN EXTREMELY VI ABLE MEL EE IN EPIC. So it is good to see the devs taking this approach.

LuKaSu
06-09-2014, 09:37 PM
I had interpreted it as multiclassing between fighter, barbarian, and designer. Instead of being the designer for fighters and barbarians.

Thumbed_Servant
06-09-2014, 09:37 PM
Any chance you guys will use this occasion to fix Mithral?

Right now mithral armor is worse than normal armor. It gives PRR like the lighter armor, yet tends to have dodge caps like the heavier one.

Can you reverse that? Mithral plate, such as the Cove armor, should be giving PRR of heavy armor yet the dodge cap of medium armor....

Yes, PLEASE fix Mithral, ty :)

Thumbed_Servant
06-09-2014, 09:44 PM
Stat inflation ruined a D20 based system. DnD characters do not get stats in the 60's by level 28. PC's do not get abilities with DC's in the 60-100 range in DnD (by level 28). In PnP, If you run into Asmodeus, you will most likely fail the DC 50 will save, and willingly serve him. With DDO stats, a rogue (DC 70 Reflex) can auto-succeed while another toon (DC 35 Reflex) can auto-fail. This doesn't happen often in PnP because the Rogue might have a DC 30 Reflex and the other toon might have a DC 18 Reflex. DDO can not operate well on the D20 system because of broken mechanics from stat-inflation.

Having ruined the D20 system (auto-succeed or auto-fail happens on a regular basis), dev's implemented a curve based system for AC. PRR was added as a way to allow tanks (heavy armor) to be useful. These changes seemed to work fairly well, but revealed a flaw in that light or no-armor toons with evasion (using dodge) could tank as well as heavy armor users.

The best answer would be to fix stat creep. Lowering stats to reasonable levels would not be popular, and is probably not a realistic solution that players would accept. I see 2 solutions.
1. Go to a D30 or D40 (instead of D20) system to reduce the auto-fail, auto succeed issue.
2. Stat bonuses could be cut in half for saves. (58 Reflex gives you +12 to saves instead of +24 to saves).

I like #2 better because it sticks with the D20 system. Mob DC"s would need to be dropped by 10-15. Both will help fix most of the problems with DC based builds (necro, monk QP, assassin). Either solution would also allow dev's to reduce evasion-based damage (most classes will fail some of the time now, making evasion useful but not required). This will fix most of the heavy armor issues (taking too much elemental damage) while remaining true to DnD.

Please stop making increasingly complex mechanics and fix the core problem. Complex mechanics cause problems when players find all of the "holes" in your new system designed to fix the last set of mistakes.


Astute observation with some interesting ideas.

Yes, DDO has gone outside of the DnD d20 system as far as scale, and this inflation in my opinion too has made the core mechanic less viable.

Thar
06-09-2014, 09:48 PM
This is a good suggestion; make the shield based enhancements into multi-selectors. I will bring this up to the team.

Sev~

same with the heavy shield restriction on evasion please, otherwise all the current good shields (ie named) are uselss to light armor stawarts.

Thumbed_Servant
06-09-2014, 09:50 PM
I'm kinda sad to see the 100 PRR cap for robe wearers. My current plan is/was to grind out the 9 divine epic past-lives, but now I don't see the point as it would put me way over the PRR cap :(
I think it's great to see armor get some love though!


I THINK that is only a base *cap* based on armor type, but still it will be modifiable via past life feats, other feats, and enhancements. So, if I'm correct, your planned past life feats would RAISE that cap for you.

Cheers

Thumbed_Servant
06-09-2014, 09:54 PM
We have been looking at the epic elite melee damage.

That said, the reason we don't only do this is because there are a number of well designed builds currently in play that already thrive in the epic elite content. Lowering the damage and capabilities of the creatures would do nothing to convince the players to move to less powerful builds, nor would it provide a compelling reason to examine the benefits of lots of builds, classes and items that are being largely ignored at the end game. Our goal is not to make the game easier, but rather to provide a wider variety of compelling and fun character builds.

When we examined the current builds being used and read through the player feedback in the balance thread one thing was clear; armored characters were not well represented in the end game. Not only does this shut down a lot of classes, but the heavily armored character is an iconic figure in D&D lore and art. We wanted to give players a reason to develop those types of characters.

Sev~

Well thought out and well stated. To me it DOES seem silly to even have armor in the game if the most viable builds are viable by NOT wearing armor. These proposed changes go a long way to making armor useful again in the game at the high end; otherwise, just remove armor from the game and then we can all wear fashionable clothing everywhere.

PS....MITHRAL armor....can has fix to this please? :)

L2Marshall
06-09-2014, 09:54 PM
I brought this up once already, but would really like a dev response so I will do so again, and again and again until I get a response. One of the benefits of epic TRing through the divine sphere is increased PRR, but you are applying hard caps to builds based on armor type worn now. For many robed builds these epic past life feats are going to become useless, and lets face it, we didn't TR through 9 divines for power over life and death or block energy stances or even the three PDK for the action boost. I and many others did these past lives to INCREASE our PRR, not to make it easier to get to a then nonexistent cap. I think this issue should be addressed. The fact that 9 of the epic past lives and 3 of the iconic passive past life feats are all bonuses to PRR makes the decision to hard cap PRR unfair to people who have already put in that effort and are now looking at a slap in the face for playing through the content you made for us. If you are dead set on hard capping PRR then the past life feats need to be able to break that cap or be retroactively changed. At the very least you can tell us you know you made us waste our time doing the past lives and that you just dont care.

thegreatneil
06-09-2014, 09:59 PM
I brought this up once already, but would really like a dev response so I will do so again, and again and again until I get a response. One of the benefits of epic TRing through the divine sphere is increased PRR, but you are applying hard caps to builds based on armor type worn now. For many robed builds these epic past life feats are going to become useless, and lets face it, we didn't TR through 9 divines for power over life and death or block energy stances or even the three PDK for the action boost. I and many others did these past lives to INCREASE our PRR, not to make it easier to get to a then nonexistent cap. I think this issue should be addressed. The fact that 9 of the epic past lives and 3 of the iconic passive past life feats are all bonuses to PRR makes the decision to hard cap PRR unfair to people who have already put in that effort and are now looking at a slap in the face for playing through the content you made for us. If you are dead set on hard capping PRR then the past life feats need to be able to break that cap or be retroactively changed. At the very least you can tell us you know you made us waste our time doing the past lives and that you just dont care.

So how does a caster get over 100 prr (without monk levels)
If this is a big issue you could get Light Armor Proficiency From EK raising it to 200.

PsychoBlonde
06-09-2014, 10:18 PM
Magical Resist Rating
In addition, we are adding a new value called Magical Resist Rating. The formula for the rating will be the same as for PRR, with the resulting multiplier applied to all magical damage.

Didn't I suggest this a while back in one of the suggestion threads? Neato. I like this idea.

I also suggest that you make it so that items/enhancements that grant PRR ONLY grant MRR if you are WEARING ARMOR (even light armor). Wearing pajamas or robes should leave you vulnerable to damage from spells.


PRR and MRR Cap for armor

Robes or Outfit: 100
Light Armor: 200
Medium Armor: No cap
Heavy Armor: No cap

I'm not sure if this is necessary but it makes sense . . . it's rude that there's a dodge cap for heavy armor but in pajamas you can have all the PRR you can get your grubby hands on. So there should be reciprocity.



~ The Stalwart Defender and the Sacred Defender will no longer be shield based trees. Instead, the enhancements that current require shields will be changed to require medium or heavy armor.

Outstanding.


~ The Paladin class has fallen behind beyond the second level so we plan to look at some more compelling reasons to advance in that class.

In large part this is due to the fact that a Paladin is basically just a fighter . . . without the feats. (Same for barbarian). A few quickly-used-up LoHs and Smites do not make up for this. Couple this with the fact that the paladin DPS tree is BAD and, yeah, paladin isn't worth taking past the level where you get the only really good thing the class has going for it, namely, saving throws.


These trees would be available to Fighter, Paladin and perhaps even a new class that supported heavy armor and martial abilities.

Please don't add any new classes until you've got the existing ones solidified. Barbarian in particular still needs work. Artificer, Fighter, (sort of) Sorcerer and Favored Soul all still need a 3rd tree, and I'd like to see the racial trees implemented, too. How about making Vanguard the Dwarf-accessible tree? Mechanic would make a cool halfling-accessible tree (more versatile than Assassin, IMO). Frenzied Berserker for Half-orc, perhaps? Tempest for drow? Not sure if human really needs one, it could just be "one of the above".

But, overall I really like this proposal.

Thumbed_Servant
06-09-2014, 10:18 PM
As a few others have already said: Welcome to the forums Severlin

maddmatt70
06-09-2014, 10:19 PM
So there is no reason for a heavy armor wearer to concern himself/herself with reflex saves? I am not sure I like that - I think Will, Fortitude and Relfex is very nicely done in D&D in terms of balance, builds and ability scores. MRR does not require much investment that I can see unlike evasion requires saves and dexterity - I think that this is an insufficient proposal and ironically an odd nerf to paladins. I would like a comparable investment to reflex save for this new concept.

By the way D&D has officially left the building.

Theolin
06-09-2014, 10:19 PM
I THINK that is only a base *cap* based on armor type, but still it will be modifiable via past life feats, other feats, and enhancements. So, if I'm correct, your planned past life feats would RAISE that cap for you.

Cheers

but I hit 150 already without all the past lives for extra ........ would of been 200+ with everything

L2Marshall
06-09-2014, 10:21 PM
So how does a caster get over 100 prr (without monk levels)
If this is a big issue you could get Light Armor Proficiency From EK raising it to 200.

If you read my initial post you will see that I was refering to my originally planned monk build, which could get past 100 without the past life feats. And like you stated casters can now equip heavier armor via EK, and divines have no spell failure anyway so can wear heavy armor with no problems. The point is people put in time to get these past lives specifically to INCREASE their PRR. Now the devs are saying, oops forgot to tell you way back when we put out that release, don't bother if you plan or wearing an outfit/robe. I understand that the past life feats will open up other character/gear options if there is a cap at 100, but that is not what we did all the work for, we wanted to INCREASE what we could already achieve. And BTW casters have ALWAYS had options to wear shields if they wanted a little defense, it is very east to get around the spell failure on Skyvault and Light and Darkness. SO with one of them equipped and the bracers from Deathwyrm and the past lives, yes there is a good chance they can push 100 PRR if they so choose. Monks however don't have any option to break that 100 cap and stay centered (as far as we know at this point). If they want to nerf monks I am fine with that, go ahead do whatever, but if I just spent 3 months TRing to gain a benefit I am now being told I will no longer be able to use, I will be loosing some serious trust in turbine, and I can not really validate continuing to spend the time or resources I have spent in the past. I have paid my VIP dues since 7/27/2006 and this is the first time I have actually come to the forums to complain about some crappy thing turbine is about to do. I am not whining about my build getting nerfed, I am angry at the months I spent to gain a specific benefit I am now being told will not be available. I just want turbine to take into account that they released a game feature that people poured time into and they should not now retract that game feature's benefits.

Theolin
06-09-2014, 10:23 PM
So how does a caster get over 100 prr (without monk levels)
If this is a big issue you could get Light Armor Proficiency From EK raising it to 200.

who says caster ... how about a clonkish with about 200 you cannot use stances in armor ..... unless that is the point of course which if so they should just say, yes we are ruining your build to bad :(

Thumbed_Servant
06-09-2014, 10:39 PM
Hello.

As we are talking about armor and changes to armor, I would like you all to consider a change: Raise the Maximum Dexterity Bonus of armors as their minimum levels rise.

DDO's numerical values, as has been stated previously in this thread, has gone outside of the scale of the DnD game that it is based on. As the game progresses and challenges arise for the game much due to this increasing larger numbers scale the developers change things to keep many things/classes/builds viable. One thing, one number, that has not changed for all armors with this growing scale is Maximum Dexterity Bonus for armors.

Level 1 a toon may acquire Plate Armor, a heavy armor with a Maximum Dexterity Bonus of +1: http://ddowiki.com/page/Full_plate

Level 22 a toon may acquire a NAMED heavy armor ALSO with a Maximum Dexterity Bonus of +1: http://ddowiki.com/page/Embrace_of_the_Spider_Queen

Some heavy armors have different Maximum Dexterity Bonuses, but the above example begs that the Maximum Allowed Dexterity be re-examined and re-evaluated across the board with due diligence. It just does not make sense to me that a named heavy armor of lvl 22 would not allow more dexterity to be used than a level 1 non magical set. Not in a game with stats going into the 60's

Desonde
06-09-2014, 11:03 PM
When we examined the current builds being used and read through the player feedback in the balance thread one thing was clear; armored characters were not well represented in the end game. Not only does this shut down a lot of classes, but the heavily armored character is an iconic figure in D&D lore and art. We wanted to give players a reason to develop those types of characters.


Which these suggestions help address but;



That said, the reason we don't only do this is because there are a number of well designed builds currently in play that already thrive in the epic elite content. Lowering the damage and capabilities of the creatures would do nothing to convince the players to move to less powerful builds, nor would it provide a compelling reason to examine the benefits of lots of builds, classes and items that are being largely ignored at the end game. Our goal is not to make the game easier, but rather to provide a wider variety of compelling and fun character builds.


Here lies the problem, those certain builds are utilizing the top end of the system to actually thrive in epic elite content (Procing Double Rainbow as fast as possible as much as possible for as little sp as possible, maintaining master's blitz with a stack of displacement and incorp. to drop your chance of being hit to ~25% and tearing down their swarms of hp, waiting for the perfect situation to clear an entire room with absurd spike damage).

All other builds have to figure out a way to not get hit (since in a party you can only get hit 3 times before death) and kill the enemies.

No one change is going to change anything, other than alter the heroic content which is already fairly well balanced, everything needs to be looked at together and addressed as closely as possible (Monster HP/Damage/DCs, Top end of player DPS [look at the exponential curve, there shouldn't be a need for the top 1% to deal 1000x more than the mean], Player defenses).

Let's look at Paladin for example. Capping the saves bonus doesn't stop us from taking paladin levels, the +8 to saves is still going to be needed to actually save against things in EE content, unless it's capped too low it's not going to change anything [if it's capped too low than only Paladins will be able to save against spells in top content and you'll see more paladin levels added into splashes just so their builds can survive]. However, if you lower the amount of saves needed and add a cap to divine grace you'll see paladin splashes removed from many builds to bring in more build variety.

This is because the paladin levels are taken for one reason, and if you attack the solution rather than the problem, you won't invoke any positive change.

Qhualor
06-09-2014, 11:34 PM
I'm still trying to understand MRR. With all the gear, past lives, enhancements, etc make certain builds OP that already grant additional saves or boost existing character saves? Seems redundant for evasion builds, especially monks, or builds with good magical saves.

I feel like this is a band aid fix for melees to be able to stand in a fight longer if they don't have evasion or 2 Pally levels.

Krell
06-09-2014, 11:43 PM
Say... I've never seen you around here before today. Could you please tell us your job title and/or what you have worked on in the past in DDO?

Those of us that also play Asheron's Call or Asheron's Call 2 are familiar with Sev. I believe he can get credit for resurrecting Asheron's Call 2 not too long ago.

PsychoBlonde
06-09-2014, 11:47 PM
It is important to remember in doing these MRR calculations that, UNLIKE PRR, spell damage is further reduced by absorption and resistance items. There are no 30% physical damage absorption items and the only really high DR item is . . . heavy armor.

Is MRR going to stack additively or multiplicatively with absorb items/spells? I'd assume multiplicatively, since that's how other types of absorb currently seem to stack.

Don't think you need to make MMR AS GOOD as PRR, though. SOME mitigation, good. ALL TEH MITIGATIONZ not so good.

I know I'd very seriously consider taking my divine casters out of monk, though. They don't have quite enough reflex save to get the full evasion benefit and that way they'd get some melee damage mitigation from armor PRR. So that would be neat.

Stoner81
06-09-2014, 11:59 PM
We will definitely need to address the lack of good small shields in future content. I know we plan to have small shields and bucklers in the loot for the epic version of Orchard which would be released at the same time as these changes.

Sev~

Was talking about making other packs epic with a guildy a few weeks ago and I said then that they should do Orchard and all of Necro at least that would have another epic level raid for people to run. The downside though is yet more undead which I am sick and tired of seeing now to be honest but still would be cool to do a Orchard run with epic level toons!

Anyway back on topic since this is being looked at would it help by changing how PRR is calculated? By this I mean instead of 82 PRR giving x% why not make it like Dodge so that every point represents a 1% chance of course this would mean re-working a lot of stuff but would it solve issues in the long run? Oh and would you change Sheltering to stack with other sources off PRR (like augments) please.

Stoner81.

PsychoBlonde
06-10-2014, 12:05 AM
I brought this up once already, but would really like a dev response so I will do so again, and again and again until I get a response. One of the benefits of epic TRing through the divine sphere is increased PRR, but you are applying hard caps to builds based on armor type worn now. For many robed builds these epic past life feats are going to become useless, and lets face it, we didn't TR through 9 divines for power over life and death or block energy stances or even the three PDK for the action boost. I and many others did these past lives to INCREASE our PRR, not to make it easier to get to a then nonexistent cap. I think this issue should be addressed. The fact that 9 of the epic past lives and 3 of the iconic passive past life feats are all bonuses to PRR makes the decision to hard cap PRR unfair to people who have already put in that effort and are now looking at a slap in the face for playing through the content you made for us. If you are dead set on hard capping PRR then the past life feats need to be able to break that cap or be retroactively changed. At the very least you can tell us you know you made us waste our time doing the past lives and that you just dont care.

Considering that you can only get 27 PRR from past life feats, you know what you SHOULD do with a hard PRR cap? Take some of the feats/enhancements/gear you're using to get PRR and put it in something else. You're not FORCED to wear gear and take feats etc. that will increase your PRR above the new cap and make your "hard work" "useless". Swap out some of your gear/feats/enhancements/etc. Those are optional.

If you actually had 150 PRR *purely* from grinding epic past lives, that might be something. But you don't. You have 27, if that. The rest all comes from somewhere that you're now free to get rid of and take something else. You might (OMG) even be able to use a stance that's NOT EARTH STANCE!!!

The difference between 100 PRR and 150 PRR is 7% damage. SEVEN. PERCENT. If a mob hits you for 250, you take an extra SIXTEEN DAMAGE. OOOOOOOOOOO. End of the frickin' world there. Unlike heavy armor wearers who have a dodge cap around 5%, so compared to YOU they're taking (on average) an extra TWENTY percent damage. Oh, wait, more than that, because you probably have ninja spy incorporeality to boot. And you have evasion, so you're ignoring most spell damage while heavy armor folks are eating it full in the face.

Yeah, you're totally the one getting the dirty end of the stick.

gelgoog
06-10-2014, 12:26 AM
Just a quick note on MRR and such.

If more numerical information is added to our characters in game via MRR/PRR etc., then you have to update our character sheet pages eventually. The current user interface does not show enough breakdowns or actual effects (blur, ghostly, displacement, etc.) that our characters currently have active.

The user interface for our character sheets is in need of an overdue update.
Also certain feats like trip and stun need to show proper numbers when you hover over the feat.

Please take into consideration as you update the game in the future that the character sheet needs to update with game.

Delacroix21
06-10-2014, 12:38 AM
Greetings.



PRR and MRR Cap for armor

Robes or Outfit: 100
Light Armor: 200


Sev~

Ummmm... ***?


So why do monks get 1/2 the physical damage mitigation? Are we able to "evade" damage now? This is ridiculous. Not to mention Robe wearers need insane saves for EE, yet now plate can totally ignore saves and have good mitigation.


Im all for plate getting a boost, and they did get one, but capping robe PRR is a NERF.

Delacroix21
06-10-2014, 01:02 AM
Also it should be considered getting an EE worthy reflex save requires a lot of sacrifice, and now plate gets spells reduced with no effort.

Ayseifn
06-10-2014, 01:06 AM
How will things that give a shield bonus to AC that aren't shields work, will they give any PRR/MRR? I'm mean stuff like the shield spell and Shield of Whirling Steel Tempest abiliy.

thegreatneil
06-10-2014, 01:08 AM
Stuff.+1

Ummmm... ***?


Are we able to "evade" damage now?

Like dodge it?

Delacroix21
06-10-2014, 01:21 AM
We have been looking at the epic elite melee damage.

That said, the reason we don't only do this is because there are a number of well designed builds currently in play that already thrive in the epic elite content. Lowering the damage and capabilities of the creatures would do nothing to convince the players to move to less powerful builds, nor would it provide a compelling reason to examine the benefits of lots of builds, classes and items that are being largely ignored at the end game. Our goal is not to make the game easier, but rather to provide a wider variety of compelling and fun character builds.

When we examined the current builds being used and read through the player feedback in the balance thread one thing was clear; armored characters were not well represented in the end game. Not only does this shut down a lot of classes, but the heavily armored character is an iconic figure in D&D lore and art. We wanted to give players a reason to develop those types of characters.

Sev~

You are the barbarian Dev?


So how do barbs really benefit from this compared to heavy armor fighters etc. Their DR benefit is useless in the current system.

Delacroix21
06-10-2014, 01:28 AM
Like dodge it?

And when they dont dodge they get annihilated?


Basically I see= Heavy armor gets no-save spell and meele mitigation.

Robes= Get a higher "chance" to dodge meele, get hit MUCH harder by both meele and spells, and unless their saves are super high get destroyed by spells. EE reflex saves are NOT easy for evasion builds, and usually require paladin splash. If your "evasion" build cant hit 70s+ reflex, your evasion doesnt mean carp.

Thumbed_Servant
06-10-2014, 01:52 AM
And when they dont dodge they get annihilated?


Basically I see= Heavy armor gets no-save spell and meele mitigation.

Robes= Get a higher "chance" to dodge meele, get hit MUCH harder by both meele and spells, and unless their saves are super high get destroyed by spells. EE reflex saves are NOT easy for evasion builds, and usually require paladin splash. If your "evasion" build cant hit 70s+ reflex, your evasion doesnt mean carp.

Nothing has changed for the Robes....everything has changed for the armor wearers. Before, armor wearers got destroyed by spells and got hit hard by melee/missle damage while monks had super high ac so as not to be hit, dodge on the off chance they were, and evasion to avoid magic damage. Monks still have that, no armor wearers have defenses too. It's not a minus for monks it's a plus for armor wearers. I don't think a plus for everyone else is a minus for robe wearers/monks.

I don't see where monks/robe wearer's are getting hit harder either.

It's time that armor meant something in the game again.

Seikojin
06-10-2014, 01:58 AM
I think the base idea is awesome, changing the PRR system to mitigate better in heavier armors. Adding the MRR system makes sense considering the idea of mitigating the evadable damage types.

My biggest concern was brought up as a high AC in a different thread. A fighter pali was able to combo enhancements to get up to 340+ AC. Great, however, a pure classed Pally nor could a pure classed fighter get close to that. I think a combo class shoud have benefits, but they only way to get ac to the high 5% hit chance; that is a big problem. Especially when declaring that pures should be viable too. Because 250 ac is nowhere near the miss chance as 350 ac.

In this new system, mitigation is stronger, however the above would still hold true. Ultimately, I would have to see it on lam, because there are too many variables that can make or break the use.

Also, Defender and Stalwart: Give the stance a bypass for Single Weapon Fighting for shields. This alone would put them back in the group.

HatsuharuZ
06-10-2014, 02:05 AM
MRR... I think that if this is implemented, it should not be done as stated in the OP. With the number of absorption sources available to all players at lvl 20+, this may be a bit overpowered. I would suggest making the MRR rating much harder to obtain.

Suggestions:

~ Make MRR either equal to half the player's PRR.

~ Make MRR only available if using a shield.

~ Make MRR a function of Shield and/or Armor AC.

Delacroix21
06-10-2014, 02:26 AM
Any toon using a shield (not JUST heavy and tower) should get the double bonus to MRR, as the dps hit with a buckler/small shield is the SAME as a heavy/tower (except for swash bucklers, but that is ok). Heavy shields allow evasion too so you can't use that argument.


I don't get what you are trying to achieve here. So why would anyone use anything but a heavy shield evasion or not? Why does the small shield even exist as it can't even be used with swashbuckling making it the most worthless item ever?


Shields should ALL provide a bonus to MRR, buckler to heavy should provide the same, and tower (the only no evasion shield) should provide a bonus.


So:
Buckler 1.5 MRR
Small shield 1.5 MRR
Heavy shield 1.5 MRR
Tower shield 2 MRR


You don't need to give increasing buffs to small and heavy over the buckler, its ac does that allready.

droid327
06-10-2014, 02:26 AM
If no one's already brought it up....

How will DR and/or Elemental Resists play with PRR and MRR? Like it currently does?

Right now, AFAIK, flat-value DRs are taken off the top, and then PRR mitigations are calculated. If you're running a magical mitigation of 22%, that means that having Elemental Resist 40 only ends up taking about 9 actual damage off the attack, because your flat-value mitigation is effectively reduced by your percentile mitigation. DR and Resists are, thus, made obsolete by having higher PRR/MRR values. By increasing the potential of PRR and MRR, you're driving the knife even deeper into another neglected mitigation system.

Doing the math on the above for an example: 500 damage Fireball, 22% mitigation, no resists: 500 * 0.22 = 110
With 40 resists - resists off the top: (500-40) * 0.22 = 101.2 damage. Only 9 less than no-resists.
With 40 resists - resists off the bottom: (500 * 0.22) - 40 = 70 damage, a noticeable effect
Incidentally, with the above scenario, any magical damage under 182 is totally negated...not automatically God-mode in Epic Elite, but definitely enough to make a party (especially a healer) find an armor-tank, especially for non-boss content.

I hope you'll consider changing the formula so that flat-value reductions are taken off the bottom, not the top - ie, after percentile mitigation is calculated...that would really open up another layer for mitigation, especially for Barbs and FvSs that are built for it, and WF that universally ignore their DR options right now. It also makes Hammer/Axe/Spear-block into much more useful affixes, and Stoneskin becomes a much more interesting spell. It also will prevent the new Resist ship buffs you've worked on from being made pointless.

L2Marshall
06-10-2014, 02:47 AM
Considering that you can only get 27 PRR from past life feats, you know what you SHOULD do with a hard PRR cap? Take some of the feats/enhancements/gear you're using to get PRR and put it in something else. You're not FORCED to wear gear and take feats etc. that will increase your PRR above the new cap and make your "hard work" "useless". Swap out some of your gear/feats/enhancements/etc. Those are optional.

If you actually had 150 PRR *purely* from grinding epic past lives, that might be something. But you don't. You have 27, if that. The rest all comes from somewhere that you're now free to get rid of and take something else. You might (OMG) even be able to use a stance that's NOT EARTH STANCE!!!

The difference between 100 PRR and 150 PRR is 7% damage. SEVEN. PERCENT. If a mob hits you for 250, you take an extra SIXTEEN DAMAGE. OOOOOOOOOOO. End of the frickin' world there. Unlike heavy armor wearers who have a dodge cap around 5%, so compared to YOU they're taking (on average) an extra TWENTY percent damage. Oh, wait, more than that, because you probably have ninja spy incorporeality to boot. And you have evasion, so you're ignoring most spell damage while heavy armor folks are eating it full in the face.

Yeah, you're totally the one getting the dirty end of the stick.

Ohhhh where to start? First off there are 3 divine spheres and PDK that is 9*3=36, so incorrect on that point. What I should or should not do with my character is none of your concern but the fact is, I spent a very considerable amount of time building it the way I wanted it, and part of that was epic and iconic TRing. If I had known ahead of time that there would be a hard cap much lower than what is achievable now I would not have done the TRing, the fact is, right now an unarmored toon can get to around 150 without the past lives, as other have also stated in this thread.

If I was concerned with other things my toon could use instead then I would have made those changes on my own, but i guess items like Dumathoin's Bracers (Bracers): Natural Armor +10, Elemental Resistance +45, Sheltering +30, Blue Augment Slot, Dexterity +11 really are useless without the PRR so I will just dump that. I will dump earth stance too, because I dont really care about the extra multiplier on my crits, that is in no way a part of why I choose earth at all and the extra hit points from meditation of war in earth stance are basically useless to. I guess that non stacking bonus to attack speed from air stance is starting to look really tempting though!

Next up, if 7% is not much, then what does it matter if I have it or not? Oh It does matter? Then your point is moot. But just for the record the target range was 180-200 not 150, that is roughly 15%, exactly the difference between me having Shadow Viel over another toon having an incorp item, which you went on to make a big deal about. Anyone can get 10% incorp on an item, and heavily armored wraith form wizards don't have any incorp at all right? Because that is an actual thing. As far as the dodge argument, well in this very thread Sev has stated that heavy armored toons will be getting a boost to dodge, no to mention the fact that right now on live servers heavy toons can get around 250+ PRR so no, they are not taking 20% more damage. In fact the best S&B Pallys can stand and take it from EE DQ (among other raid bosses) and SELF HEAL through it with no problems, something a monk is not going to do, why, they can't shield block and absorb extra damage!

If this update went live today Heavy armor toons will not only get more PRR, not only get more dodge, not only will they always take 1/2 or less damage from spells (without even having to THINK about working on their saves), ANNNND they can reach much higher AC totals, but unarmored toons also have to take a nerf to their PRR as well. I never stated once that the boost that heavy armored toon are getting is bad, I never addressed a single point other than the hard cap on PRR. In my first post in this thread I stated that Heavy armor should get boosted, that is great, everyone should be able to have fun and play the game in a way that is meaningful to them.

ALL of that is completely beside the point though. I and others, went through those past lives with a specific purpose, and given these changes, that purpose is being rendered pointless, and some of us would have decided to spend our time in other ways. All I want is some acknowledgement from the devs that a) they are taking this into consideration or b) they just don't care. I can live with either, but what I can't do is spend more time doing things in this game that are supposed to be permanent improvements to my character but end up being a useless waste of my free time, which could be spent doing something else.

Derana
06-10-2014, 03:02 AM
Well, yes and no. Or have you forgotten that there exist Light/Medium armor wearing DPS classes like Barbs and Rangers? Is it your intention to completely exclude these from EE content now? It was bad for melees before, but this feels like it will be even MORE exclusionary.

Barbs are pretty much excluded from EE content already for a while because they cannot self heal and divine classes that actually heal are rare thanks to the healing abilities in destinies and enhancements...

Alternative
06-10-2014, 03:07 AM
sorry don't have time to read the whole 10 pages, but anyone raised the issue of bladeforged/warforged? what of casters, say a pure drow sorc with no evasion should be looking for a heavy armor and -arcane failure items now?

Hilltrot
06-10-2014, 03:23 AM
Not only does this shut down a lot of classes, but the heavily armored character is an iconic figure in D&D lore and art. We wanted to give players a reason to develop those types of characters.

Sev~

Full plate and packing steel. 99.9% of Miniature Giant Space Hamsters agree.

The absurdity of cloth wearing fighters with 2 levels of Monk all over the place is well known to everyone except many who have dominated this forum for nearly a decade.

I'm glad some actual thought is being placed into this with changes in about a year, I guess.

Monkey_Archer
06-10-2014, 03:36 AM
My biggest concern was brought up as a high AC in a different thread. A fighter pali was able to combo enhancements to get up to 340+ AC. Great, however, a pure classed Pally nor could a pure classed fighter get close to that. I think a combo class shoud have benefits, but they only way to get ac to the high 5% hit chance; that is a big problem. Especially when declaring that pures should be viable too. Because 250 ac is nowhere near the miss chance as 350 ac.
This is my biggest concern with AC changes as well. A typical pure class fighter/pali struggles to get over 200 AC whereas an optimal mutliclass build can get over 300. Our unfortunate light/medium armored rogues/rangers/barbs struggle to get over 100 AC, meanwhile monks can get well over 100 without even trying. With such a wide range of possible AC values I don't see how making AC viable in EE is even possible without limiting the range of optimal builds even further.

If the new target AC for EE was set to around 200 (a reasonable point for pure fighter/pali tanks) the result of this would actually be a much larger buff to monks (who definitely don't need the help) and an indirect nerf to all light/medium armor users (who arguably need the most help in this regard). While I would definitely like to see typical heavy armor builds see meaningful results from investing in AC, I can't really agree with any changes that would further marginalize light/medium armor more then it already is.

legendkilleroll
06-10-2014, 04:26 AM
I once had a heavy armored tank and i like ideas here, how it all works out tho will have to wait and see

Nice to see enhancements to improve shield wielders, i recently TR'ed mine as compared to other chars his dps
was almost non existent lol

Regarding Melee builds and EE, you need to look at Blitz, ive been avoiding it to see how my builds really fare, alot seem to think they have EE builds because they cleave at entrance and blast through a quest blitzing

GeoffWatson
06-10-2014, 04:41 AM
One problem with comparing MRR with Evasion, is that Evasion only works on Reflex saves (and only if you make the save).

There are enough Fort, Will and "no save" magic damage sources, plus plenty of "You've got to be kidding" Reflex DCs(mainly traps).

MRR looks like it will be vastly superior to Evasion.

Geoff.

Dalsheel
06-10-2014, 04:43 AM
PRR and MRR Cap for armor

Robes or Outfit: 100
Light Armor: 200
Medium Armor: No cap
Heavy Armor: No cap

Note that we have designed this so characters cannot gain both Evasion and the shield bonus coupled with high levels of resistance rating. This is intentional. If you see a hole in our design that allows for this please warn us!



Seriously? You're putting a cap on the PRR we can have based on the armor we use?

Let me just point out, some of us (or more accurately a LOT of us) have worked very hard to obtain those PDK and Divine Sphere past lives so we can have PRR > 100 while using a robe/outfit. Please reconsider this. It is very rude to invalidate our efforts to improve our characters so bluntly.

pesch1991
06-10-2014, 04:52 AM
One problem with comparing MRR with Evasion, is that Evasion only works on Reflex saves (and only if you make the save).

There are enough Fort, Will and "no save" magic damage sources, plus plenty of "You've got to be kidding" Reflex DCs(mainly traps).

MRR looks like it will be vastly superior to Evasion.

Geoff.

No sir it Wont without evasion they will destroy you doesnt matter what they hit you for 800 or 700 dmg it Wont make a difference do you Even play this game ?

Schwarzie
06-10-2014, 04:58 AM
epic version of OrchardEpic Sciver? Epic Deathnip? Please tell us more.

Epic Elite Inferno... I hope the portals don't get the EE HP increase ;)

thegreatneil
06-10-2014, 04:58 AM
No sir it Wont without evasion they will destroy you doesnt matter what they hit you for 800 or 700 dmg it Wont make a difference do you Even play this game ?

Spells hit for 1600 damage? huh.

haulindonkey
06-10-2014, 05:01 AM
Why not simply give the option of any of the three shield or medium or heavy armor required for use, so as not to bone any current builds already in use. I like alot of the changes, but if this is ment to make heavy armor wearers and tanks more effective again, people who chose to be an evasion tank (light armor stalwart) rather than moving to this would get hurt in this. Im all for making other things viable but not to make a current build much less useful. Hence make it shield or medium/heavy... or both for those inclined. Just my 2 cents.

I second the motion and throw in as many cents (and as much sense) as I can ---> Translation: please don't screw over stalwart light armor builds that currently benefit from taking up through tier 5 in the tree with a shield and still maintain evasion

Monkey_Archer
06-10-2014, 05:11 AM
Seriously? You're putting a cap on the PRR we can have based on the armor we use?

Let me just point out, some of us (or more accurately a LOT of us) have worked very hard to obtain those PDK and Divine Sphere past lives so we can have PRR > 100 while using a robe/outfit. Please reconsider this. It is very rude to invalidate our efforts to improve our characters so bluntly.
When I first saw this I actually thought the cap for unarmored should be even lower, but after thinking about it more I think you are right. Artificially capping PRR does unfairly penalize those that put the effort to get past these limits. Since the spirit of these changes is to buff rather then nerf, why not remove the cap and instead give armor a PRR multiplier? Something like light/medium/heavy armor increases your total PRR by 10/20/30%

Ayseifn
06-10-2014, 05:22 AM
When I first saw this I actually thought the cap for unarmored should be even lower, but after thinking about it more I think you are right. Artificially capping PRR does unfairly penalize those that put the effort to get past these limits. Since the spirit of these changes is to buff rather then nerf, why not remove the cap and instead give armor a PRR multiplier? Something like light/medium/heavy armor increases your total PRR by 10/20/30%

If I got the math right then a heavy armour wearer with heavy shield and 225 PRR(450 MMR) would take the same damage as a robe wearer with Imp Evasion and 100 PRR if they both failed their save.

Monkey_Archer
06-10-2014, 05:43 AM
If I got the math right then a heavy armour wearer with heavy shield and 225 PRR(450 MMR) would take the same damage as a robe wearer with Imp Evasion and 100 PRR if they both failed their save.
As I understand it, 450 MRR would be 150/600 = 0.25 multiplier, whereas 100 MRR and improved evasion would be 150/250 * 0.5 = 0.3 mutliplier. The armor/shield user would only need a base 175 PRR (350 MRR) to get the same benefit on a failed save.

brzytki
06-10-2014, 06:10 AM
As I understand it, 450 MRR would be 150/600 = 0.25 multiplier, whereas 100 MRR and improved evasion would be 150/250 * 0.5 = 0.3 mutliplier. The armor/shield user would only need a base 175 PRR (350 MRR) to get the same benefit on a failed save.

Not to mention Evasion working only on those spells that require a reflex save, whereas MRR works on ALL magical damage. This includes ray spells (Disintegration, Polar Ray, Necrotic Ray, Frost Lance, Scorching Ray, Melf, Searing Light), shout-like spells (Shout, Soundburst), Horrid Wilting, FoD, Acid Fog, DoTs (Niac's, Burning Blood, DP), MM, Inflict Wounds, Slay Living and so on.

That means the MRR multiplier has to go down a little.

Edit: Nvm this, I've read it again and noticed that the doubled MRR is only against reflex save AOE spell damage.

sirgog
06-10-2014, 06:41 AM
Serious balance work. Finally.

I'm too far out of the loop to predict if these are excellent balance changes, good changes or flawed but slightly positive changes, but the fact that serious work is going into balance for the first time since MoTU has inspired me to reinstall the DDO client.

It has been a while.


Edit: For simplicity, change the constant from 150 to 100, and reduce all sources of PRR and the new MRR stat by one-third (rounded however seems appropriate on a case-by-case basis). Same overall effect, much more 'grokkable'. PRR 277 would then mean "To lose 100 hp, you need to suffer 100+277 hp of damage".

DrakeFury
06-10-2014, 08:44 AM
Best news in some time.

Really looking forward to these changes.

Atremus
06-10-2014, 08:44 AM
I like the proposed changes. But please please do not put a cap on robes that is less than achievable in game.

my Bard is looking forward to MPP

Silverleafeon
06-10-2014, 09:38 AM
Serious balance work. Finally.

I'm too far out of the loop to predict if these are excellent balance changes, good changes or flawed but slightly positive changes, but the fact that serious work is going into balance for the first time since MoTU has inspired me to reinstall the DDO client.

It has been a while.


Edit: For simplicity, change the constant from 150 to 100, and reduce all sources of PRR and the new MRR stat by one-third (rounded however seems appropriate on a case-by-case basis). Same overall effect, much more 'grokkable'. PRR 277 would then mean "To lose 100 hp, you need to suffer 100+277 hp of damage".

I am excited about the future.

Nascoe
06-10-2014, 10:17 AM
This looks like it has a lot of potential! Thanks for making Heavy Armord types valid again. It oens up tons of possibilities. Again, Thank You Very Much!

Also this. I know Mithral is supposed to be give the AC of one level, with the weight of the next one down (like Mithral Chain Shirt giving the AC of medium, but being light) Is there a chance that this might be taken into effect with the PRR/MRR system as well? Like, give the PRR of medium, while being light? Not giving all the benefits, like the Stalwart stuff, but just the PRR/MRR. I'd love to give my Favored Soul (initially only proficient in Medium) some damage resistance, since he also isn't an evasion character.

I agree on giving a bit of attention to the material types again while working on this "armor & shield pass". Give Adamantine a good real reason to exsist (maybe give it a bit more MRR, etc) and Mithral could help mitigate the limitations on light armor wearers who still want to go for defender PREs (by giving them a medium armor to qualify for it that also allows to do evasion). It would actually make it a bit of a theme again to hunt for the materials armors are made of and help not to lock barbarians, bards (fighter defender tree) and FvS (both defender trees) provided they look for the right equipment.

I do think Bucklers should give at least some PRR/MRR boost, especially as the light medium/heavy armor restriction for defenders under this proposal works to lock out swashbucklers of using defender stance while swashbuckling anyway.

Another issue is what was mentioned about different types of light medium and heavy armors giving different benefits. If we want Full plate and Half plate, Scaled and Breastplate, and chainmail and leather armor to all be viable, there needs to an advantage as well as a disadvantage to each of the choices per armor type, otherwise one becomes just worthless (i.e. if half plate does NOT offer a MDB and Dodge advantage over Full plate, why use it, and the other way around full should give more AC but maybe a bit more PRR/MRR too?).

What does this do with docents and the WF body types?

ChicagoChris
06-10-2014, 10:29 AM
Greetings.

...

Robes or Outfits: No PRR, no MRR
Light Armor: 15 PRR, 15 MRR if armor has enchantments.
Medium Armor: 30 PRR, 30 MRR if armor has enchantments.
Heavy Armor: 45 PRR, 45 MRR if armor has enchantments.

Shields will give additional PRR and, if enchanted, MRR.

Buckler: None
Light Shield: 5 PRR, 5 MRR if shield has enchantments.
Heavy Shield: 10 PRR, 10 MRR if shield has enchantments.
Tower Shield: 15 PRR, 15 MRR if shield has enchantments.

...

Sev~

Please please for the love of all things DDO, have mithral count one level *higher* for PRR and MRR. Epic Cavalry Plate should have some of the most PRR/MRR in the game. Having built up the Cavalry Plate and having it become *worse* when made epic (shift from steel to mithral) was just a slap in the face.

Taking the metals into account, you could have Mithral increase MRR and Adamantine increases PRR - so that an Mithral heavy plate (shows as medium) would have: 45 PRR, 60 MRR if armor has enchantments, and Adamantine would have 60 PRR, 45 MRR.

Theolin
06-10-2014, 10:55 AM
Ohhhh where to start? First off there are 3 divine spheres and PDK that is 9*3=36, so incorrect on that point. What I should or should not do with my character is none of your concern but the fact is, I spent a very considerable amount of time building it the way I wanted it, and part of that was epic and iconic TRing. If I had known ahead of time that there would be a hard cap much lower than what is achievable now I would not have done the TRing, the fact is, right now an unarmored toon can get to around 150 without the past lives, as other have also stated in this thread.

If I was concerned with other things my toon could use instead then I would have made those changes on my own, but i guess items like Dumathoin's Bracers (Bracers): Natural Armor +10, Elemental Resistance +45, Sheltering +30, Blue Augment Slot, Dexterity +11 really are useless without the PRR so I will just dump that. I will dump earth stance too, because I dont really care about the extra multiplier on my crits, that is in no way a part of why I choose earth at all and the extra hit points from meditation of war in earth stance are basically useless to. I guess that non stacking bonus to attack speed from air stance is starting to look really tempting though!

Next up, if 7% is not much, then what does it matter if I have it or not? Oh It does matter? Then your point is moot. But just for the record the target range was 180-200 not 150, that is roughly 15%, exactly the difference between me having Shadow Viel over another toon having an incorp item, which you went on to make a big deal about. Anyone can get 10% incorp on an item, and heavily armored wraith form wizards don't have any incorp at all right? Because that is an actual thing. As far as the dodge argument, well in this very thread Sev has stated that heavy armored toons will be getting a boost to dodge, no to mention the fact that right now on live servers heavy toons can get around 250+ PRR so no, they are not taking 20% more damage. In fact the best S&B Pallys can stand and take it from EE DQ (among other raid bosses) and SELF HEAL through it with no problems, something a monk is not going to do, why, they can't shield block and absorb extra damage!

If this update went live today Heavy armor toons will not only get more PRR, not only get more dodge, not only will they always take 1/2 or less damage from spells (without even having to THINK about working on their saves), ANNNND they can reach much higher AC totals, but unarmored toons also have to take a nerf to their PRR as well. I never stated once that the boost that heavy armored toon are getting is bad, I never addressed a single point other than the hard cap on PRR. In my first post in this thread I stated that Heavy armor should get boosted, that is great, everyone should be able to have fun and play the game in a way that is meaningful to them.

ALL of that is completely beside the point though. I and others, went through those past lives with a specific purpose, and given these changes, that purpose is being rendered pointless, and some of us would have decided to spend our time in other ways. All I want is some acknowledgement from the devs that a) they are taking this into consideration or b) they just don't care. I can live with either, but what I can't do is spend more time doing things in this game that are supposed to be permanent improvements to my character but end up being a useless waste of my free time, which could be spent doing something else.

agree ......

Seikojin
06-10-2014, 11:14 AM
same with the heavy shield restriction on evasion please, otherwise all the current good shields (ie named) are uselss to light armor stawarts.

Evasion with shields is not a realistic tactic in the slightest. The negation option is the same thing ultimately, so that should be good.

Severlin
06-10-2014, 11:21 AM
Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are dropping the changes to Dodge cap and keeping the current system.

~ The enhancements that require a shield in Stalwart and Sacred Defender will be a multi-selector offering a new medium/heavy armor option.

I will be updating the OP.

Other things we will be discussing.

~ We will be looking into Mithril and other armor materials and how they interact with this system. We don't want these to make an armor worse by changing the PRR and MRR bonuses.

~ We are discussing an alternate system where robes and light armor have capped or reduced MRR so people who want to build for PRR can do so. Our working model is to only cap MRR and not PRR. We will need a little more time to iron out the details.

Sev~

B0ltdrag0n
06-10-2014, 11:27 AM
Congrats everyone. The inability to read has destroyed a dodge cap buff.

EazyWeazy
06-10-2014, 11:30 AM
Congrats everyone. The inability to read has destroyed a dodge cap buff.

No ****. Gotta love user feedback.

RedOrm
06-10-2014, 11:31 AM
Congrats everyone. The inability to read has destroyed a dodge cap buff.

Yea I'm pretty disappointed at this result too.

Greetz,
Red Orm

Mryal
06-10-2014, 11:42 AM
Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are dropping the changes to Dodge cap and keeping the current system.
Sev~

This fits a lot with my signature.


Some changes based on player feedback:

~ The enhancements that require a shield in Stalwart and Sacred Defender will be a multi-selector offering a new medium/heavy armor option.

How about no requirement?


Some changes based on player feedback:
~ We are discussing an alternate system where robes and light armor have capped or reduced MRR so people who want to build for PRR can do so. Our working model is to only cap MRR and not PRR. We will need a little more time to iron out the details.

Sev~

This makes sense.

Impaqt
06-10-2014, 11:50 AM
Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are dropping the changes to Dodge cap and keeping the current system.

o.O really? You are not going to buff dodge because a handful of people dont understand the benefit of the change? Your joking right?


I dont understand how a couple folks can change something like this. There are far more people in favor of the buff than whiners about some fringe build or people who ust plain dont understand the change.

B0ltdrag0n
06-10-2014, 11:54 AM
If only there was this collective of people, a GROUP of them FOCUSED on the changes who could give meaningful impact and thoughts on the subject. Alas we now live in a LAND where we can do naught but MOURN anymore.

levesque2004
06-10-2014, 11:55 AM
o.O really? You are not going to buff dodge because a handful of people dont understand the benefit of the change? Your joking right?


I dont understand how a couple folks can change something like this. There are far more people in favor of the buff than whiners about some fringe build or people who ust plain dont understand the change.

two quotes:

"stupid is as stupid does" - Forrest Gump

"the squeaky wheel gets the grease" - Josh Billings (maybe)

DagazUlf
06-10-2014, 11:56 AM
If only there was this collective of people, a GROUP of them FOCUSED on the changes who could give meaningful impact and thoughts on the subject. Alas we now live in a LAND where we can do naught but MOURN anymore.

Pours out some for the lost homies.

levesque2004
06-10-2014, 11:57 AM
If only there was this collective of people, a GROUP of them FOCUSED on the changes who could give meaningful impact and thoughts on the subject. Alas we now live in a LAND where we can do naught but MOURN anymore.

Wait, I thought that's what the player's council was for.... oh, yeah, never mind.

nikos1313
06-10-2014, 12:00 PM
even though i can be positive with any changes, im glad these didnt pass. the raise to dodge cap , AC and PRR etc will just make this game so much easier, will only encourage solo play and kill the groups even more. at least thats my opinion. might be wrong though..

B0ltdrag0n
06-10-2014, 12:03 PM
even though i can be positive with any changes, im glad these didnt pass. the raise to dodge cap , AC and PRR etc will just make this game so much easier, will only encourage solo play and kill the groups even more. at least thats my opinion. might be wrong though..


No might be, about it.

L2Marshall
06-10-2014, 12:07 PM
Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are discussing an alternate system where robes and light armor have capped or reduced MRR so people who want to build for PRR can do so. Our working model is to only cap MRR and not PRR. We will need a little more time to iron out the details.

Sev~


Thank you very much for taking another look at this!

ArcaneArcher52689
06-10-2014, 12:08 PM
Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are dropping the changes to Dodge cap and keeping the current system.

~ The enhancements that require a shield in Stalwart and Sacred Defender will be a multi-selector offering a new medium/heavy armor option.

I will be updating the OP.

Other things we will be discussing.

~ We will be looking into Mithril and other armor materials and how they interact with this system. We don't want these to make an armor worse by changing the PRR and MRR bonuses.

~ We are discussing an alternate system where robes and light armor have capped or reduced MRR so people who want to build for PRR can do so. Our working model is to only cap MRR and not PRR. We will need a little more time to iron out the details.

Sev~

I like everything but the dodge cap un-buff. Is it a technical issue or is really just players complaining? because if it's the latter, please ignore them.

UurlockYgmeov
06-10-2014, 12:13 PM
Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are dropping the changes to Dodge cap and keeping the current system.

~ The enhancements that require a shield in Stalwart and Sacred Defender will be a multi-selector offering a new medium/heavy armor option.

I will be updating the OP.

Other things we will be discussing.

~ We will be looking into Mithril and other armor materials and how they interact with this system. We don't want these to make an armor worse by changing the PRR and MRR bonuses.

~ We are discussing an alternate system where robes and light armor have capped or reduced MRR so people who want to build for PRR can do so. Our working model is to only cap MRR and not PRR. We will need a little more time to iron out the details.

Sev~


+1 impressed with speed of reply and of action.

should have kept the dodge cap.

How about inherent DR based upon armor weight and magical bonus?




base





cloth/robe
0





light (docent)
1





med (mithral plating docent)
2





heavy (adamantine plating docent)
3






Formula:
base * magical enhancement value = DR (straight DR - cannot be bypassed)

So wearing nothing gives DR 0

Mithral plating with +5 docent gives DR 10 (stacking)

Heavy Full Plate +10 gives DR 30 (stacking)

**********************************

Adamantine give a bonus of +3 to base (except docent) (which makes sense because adamantine plating with docent would equal the same)

so wearing adamantine heavy full plate +10 would give DR 60 (stacking)


something along this line. simple to code and efficient use.

Delacroix21
06-10-2014, 12:16 PM
Some changes based on player feedback:


~ We are discussing an alternate system where robes and light armor have capped or reduced MRR so people who want to build for PRR can do so. Our working model is to only cap MRR and not PRR. We will need a little more time to iron out the details.

Sev~

Don't put any caps in! You are allready giving the heavier armors a bonus to PRR and mrr so why isn't that enough? You do realize that wizards, sorcs, and bards wear robes/light armor with no evasion?


And you seem to be forgetting Dev, that evasion is no guarantee of damage avoidance. If your reflex save isn't above a certain threshold (which is stupidly high for EE, requiring a paladin splash) it won't do a dang thing.


Also you have not addressed shields. You only give the bonus to MRR to heavy and tower, yet as I have said buckler sand small shields cut dps by the same amount (except for swashes) and so should provide the same bonus. Heavy shields allow evasion too, so that's not the issue. It's just like the elemental blocking feat. You Devs seem to think you need to make each shield category provide a different bonus, when they allready do through the AC they provide. As I have said, there is NO PROs in using a small shield vs a heavy in the current system and made worse in your system.


Stated again so you actually read it:
There is NO scenario where a small shield benefits any build over a heavy shield in your system.

Talon_Moonshadow
06-10-2014, 12:17 PM
I think I like this....

but the math is difficult.....lol



I also think you just nerfed my build (again). :(


But looks like it fixes a major problem in the game. (if the math works out anyway)

EllisDee37
06-10-2014, 12:23 PM
Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are dropping the changes to Dodge cap and keeping the current system.

~ The enhancements that require a shield in Stalwart and Sacred Defender will be a multi-selector offering a new medium/heavy armor option.

I will be updating the OP.

Other things we will be discussing.

~ We will be looking into Mithril and other armor materials and how they interact with this system. We don't want these to make an armor worse by changing the PRR and MRR bonuses.

~ We are discussing an alternate system where robes and light armor have capped or reduced MRR so people who want to build for PRR can do so. Our working model is to only cap MRR and not PRR. We will need a little more time to iron out the details.

Sev~Booooooooo.

I hate everything in this post just as much as I loved everything in the original OP. These are terrible concessions to make to the vocal minority who don't care a whit about game balance, but rather only care that their personal builds don't get changed.

If there's no PRR cap, you should remove the dodge cap as well. If there's going to be a dodge cap, there should be a PRR cap. Stick to your original vision.

Cleanincubus
06-10-2014, 12:28 PM
Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are discussing an alternate system where robes and light armor have capped or reduced MRR so people who want to build for PRR can do so. Our working model is to only cap MRR and not PRR. We will need a little more time to iron out the details.

Sev~

I strongly disagree with this. The Devs need to stop paying attention only to the most popular builds, and start looking at the broader picture. Not everyone who wears robes or outfits has Evasion. Quote above is certainly a change from what I've see posted previously in this thread, that was basically wearing robes/outfits were going to get you nothing, because it was assumed you had Evasion if you wore them. But what's quoted above doesn't sit well with me either. My Pale Master Drow, who has natural Spell Resistance, is going to have the MRR capped or reduced, all because Monks or Rogues may benefit too much? Wouldn't a magic using Class be more knowledgeable about how a spell is going to come at them, than say a fighter who's lifelong training has consisted of swinging a weapon around? Yet the magic using Class' "armor" is going to have a Magic Resist Rating capped, while the warrior Class' heavy armor isn't going to? This makes no sense. I can understand the PRR being capped to a certain point, specifically because of the physical composition difference between a magical robe/outfit and a magical full plate of armor, but not MRR.

As for PRR, with robes/outfits, something needs to be done. If every other Classes are going to benefit by these proposed changes, then all Classes should. There needs to be a way to differentiate between the benefits a magic using Class receives from a robe/outfit, and what a Class that has Evasion & wears robes/outfits receives. Some kind of code that detects whether a character has the Evasion Feat, should be put in place. Please don't just shove this new system out before doing something about this.

Aviya
06-10-2014, 12:28 PM
But DPS is terrible when using a shield!
We intend to give characters who use weapon and shield additional options.

~ The Stalwart Defender and the Sacred Defender will offer enhancement options as alternates to the shield based enhancements. The enhancements that current require shields will be changed into a multi-selector, with an additional option that requires medium or heavy armor.

~ The Paladin class has fallen behind beyond the second level so we plan to look at some more compelling reasons to advance in that class.
Sev~

I like the idea of buffing heavy armored characters to be able to take less damage overall because it's good for the game.
I don't like the idea of buffing the dps of those character on top of that.
If someone wants to create a heavy armor character with focus on enough prr and mrr for epic elite contente he needs to use a shield equipped. That means that they have to have lower dps than a thf or twf build that will have less defense in comparison.
You have to balance:
shield and heavy armor builds --> high defense, low dps
light armor builds no shields --> low defense, high dps

arkonas
06-10-2014, 12:29 PM
Booooooooo.

I hate everything in this post just as much as I loved everything in the original OP. These are terrible concessions to make to the vocal minority who don't care a whit about game balance, but rather only care that their personal builds don't get changed.

If there's no PRR cap, you should remove the dodge cap as well. If there's going to be a dodge cap, there should be a PRR cap. Stick to your original vision.

even i understand it and i didnt get all of the math at the time. i knew it was a base cap and it could increase not a hard cap. i wished people would stop whining and just read more often. so im saying even i got it and im a little meeh. ignore evasion people because they want the same things as the heavy armored who don't have it so well. they want the best of both worlds. i don't think they should have it. im ok with light shields or none. you're not suppose to be wearing a big hulking shield for movement. look at history of a lot of units from ancient times. any light based unit had small shields not hulking type.

arkonas
06-10-2014, 12:30 PM
I like the idea of buffing heavy armored characters to be able to take less damage overall because it's good for the game.
I don't like the idea of buffing the dps of those character on top of that.
If someone wants to create a heavy armor character with focus on enough prr and mrr for epic elite contente he needs to use a shield equipped. That means that they have to have lower dps than a thf or twf build that will have less defense in comparison.
You have to balance:
shield and heavy armor builds --> high defense, low dps
light armor builds no shields --> low defense, high dps

yeah but your dps shouldn't be that pitiful. they already sacrifice so much to get what they have. my paladin had awful dps but im not making a fighter or barb to make up for it. i made a paladin for a reason. im expecting moderate dps not low or high.

Aviya
06-10-2014, 12:36 PM
My Pale Master Drow, who has natural Spell Resistance, is going to have the MRR capped or reduced, all because Monks or Rogues may benefit too much? Wouldn't a magic using Class be more knowledgeable about how a spell is going to come at them, than say a fighter who's lifelong training has consisted of swinging a weapon around? Yet the magic using Class' "armor" is going to have a Magic Resist Rating capped, while the warrior Class' heavy armor isn't going to? This makes no sense. I can understand the PRR being capped to a certain point, specifically because of the physical composition difference between a magical robe/outfit and a magical full plate of armor, but not MRR. .

Casters with robe without evasion? Why would you do it? answer--> because you want an higher dc. From great power comes less defence.
Want to dodge incoming spell damage? splash 2 lvl of monk or rogue for evasion.
Want to stay pure (with higher dc) and reduce some spell damage coming your way? Invest in arcane spell failure stuff and wear medium armors and get insightful reflexes.
you gotta help yourself

viktorserak
06-10-2014, 12:37 PM
Dear Severlin,


when I first spotted this topic, I was like: what the heck are they going to break now.

Yet, I was totally wrong!

These are good and solid changes.

You have a plan, it makes sense, it seems really well.

I will actually reinstall DDO for this - and I will TR out of my -ofc- robed stick build before you start this.

Heck - my Heavy plated TRed dwarven Cleric will prolly advance past level 8 because of this!

Just two wishes please:

1. Some ppl are unhappy about the -at least partial- demise of evasion tanks. Dont let them break you. Whatever you do for evasion tanks, you will aslo do for evasion builds. Dont make evasion builds stronger then they are now. They are very strong. I know, I leveled and TRed several to the capp and I run EE content on them.

2. So.... Epic Abbot?

Bargol
06-10-2014, 12:38 PM
--snip--
In addition, there are new or changed caps on certain scores based on the armor you are wearing.

Note that Medium and Heavy armor will continue to negate the Evasion feat.

In addition, some shields will negate the Evasion feat.

Buckler: None
Light Shield: None
Heavy Shield: No Evasion feat
Tower Shield: No Evasion feat

PRR and MRR Cap for armor (tentative, work in progress)

Robes or Outfit: -/100
Light Armor: -/200
Medium Armor: No cap
Heavy Armor: No cap

Note that we have designed this so characters cannot gain both Evasion and the shield bonus coupled with high levels of resistance rating. This is intentional. If you see a hole in our design that allows for this please warn us!

--snip--

On an evasion fighter in light armor (older style evasion tanks) using a shield currently grants AC and PRR plus bonuses from stances. By removing shields from being possible for evasion you kill this type of build (is currently on its last leg). The extra boost to AC and PRR are needed sometimes for tanking. How about instead of loosing evasion they just don't get the magical resistance? They would keep evasion and get the ac and PRR making this type of build still viable.

More options > less options.

-Zephyr-
06-10-2014, 12:39 PM
Thank you for not capping PRR on robes/outfits.

Aviya
06-10-2014, 12:42 PM
yeah but your dps shouldn't be that pitiful. they already sacrifice so much to get what they have. my paladin had awful dps but im not making a fighter or barb to make up for it. i made a paladin for a reason. im expecting moderate dps not low or high.

I think it should be very different dps and noticeable.
I like a game where each character is different one from the other. The more difference there is, more people will want to play the game using different builds because it would bring a different experience.
I wouldn't want to try a barbarian life after my paladin tank life if the dps was almost the same or the difference was moderate, I want a huge dps difference if I have to grind 3.8 millior heroic xp and 6.6 million of epic xp

patang01
06-10-2014, 12:43 PM
Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are dropping the changes to Dodge cap and keeping the current system.

~ The enhancements that require a shield in Stalwart and Sacred Defender will be a multi-selector offering a new medium/heavy armor option.

I will be updating the OP.

Other things we will be discussing.

~ We will be looking into Mithril and other armor materials and how they interact with this system. We don't want these to make an armor worse by changing the PRR and MRR bonuses.

~ We are discussing an alternate system where robes and light armor have capped or reduced MRR so people who want to build for PRR can do so. Our working model is to only cap MRR and not PRR. We will need a little more time to iron out the details.

Sev~

As I see it the different materials should add more PRR then MRR and vice versa. Say you have Mithril. Why not add a quarter less PRR for it but a quarter more MRR (or something like that) and for adamantine the reverse - so more PRR but less MRR? That would make the type of material special - plus with Mithril you generally get a better dodge cap anyways.

Aviya
06-10-2014, 12:45 PM
As I see it the different materials should add more PRR then MRR and vice versa. Say you have Mithril. Why not add a quarter less PRR for it but a quarter more MRR (or something like that) and for adamantine the reverse - so more PRR but less MRR? That would make the type of material special - plus with Mithril you generally get a better dodge cap anyways.

signed

Seikojin
06-10-2014, 12:45 PM
Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are dropping the changes to Dodge cap and keeping the current system.

~ The enhancements that require a shield in Stalwart and Sacred Defender will be a multi-selector offering a new medium/heavy armor option.

I will be updating the OP.

Other things we will be discussing.

~ We will be looking into Mithril and other armor materials and how they interact with this system. We don't want these to make an armor worse by changing the PRR and MRR bonuses.

~ We are discussing an alternate system where robes and light armor have capped or reduced MRR so people who want to build for PRR can do so. Our working model is to only cap MRR and not PRR. We will need a little more time to iron out the details.

Sev~

For dodge cap, couldn't more cap raisers be added to existing dodge increasing enhancements? So existing +1's can increase the cap as well? This would benefit everyone. By this I mean I think every tree that has dodge increasers should inherently raise the cap as well. Or at the third tier raise the cap by some (1 or 2). This way filler splashes on that enhancement fill its roll, and going all the way at least adds its benefit even if you were taking it as filler, making the second tier a non-buy until you have the points to get that +2 dodge.

I think light and under capping mrr may be a good way to go.

I also like the mithril being more mrr and adamantine more prr. Makes logical sense.

Purkilius
06-10-2014, 12:47 PM
I am excited about the future.

me to.

EazyWeazy
06-10-2014, 12:48 PM
Booooooooo.

I hate everything in this post just as much as I loved everything in the original OP. These are terrible concessions to make to the vocal minority who don't care a whit about game balance, but rather only care that their personal builds don't get changed.

If there's no PRR cap, you should remove the dodge cap as well. If there's going to be a dodge cap, there should be a PRR cap. Stick to your original vision.

Much wisdom here.

CaptainSpacePony
06-10-2014, 12:48 PM
Please please for the love of all things DDO, have mithral count one level *higher* for PRR and MRR. Epic Cavalry Plate should have some of the most PRR/MRR in the game. Having built up the Cavalry Plate and having it become *worse* when made epic (shift from steel to mithral) was just a slap in the face.

Taking the metals into account, you could have Mithral increase MRR and Adamantine increases PRR - so that an Mithral heavy plate (shows as medium) would have: 45 PRR, 60 MRR if armor has enchantments, and Adamantine would have 60 PRR, 45 MRR.

When PRR was introduced, mithral took a hit. That being said, Medium Cav plate and the like have been that way for quite a while. The quoted piece is reasonable but I think this overhaul is an opportunity for something more interesting.

Instead of treating mithral as medium armor with heavy PRR or whatever, how about leaving it as is with the following simple modification:

Mithral:
Armor is treated as one category type lighter then normal
-10% Arcane spell failure (to a minimum of 0)
3 reduction to Armor check penalty for armor (to a minimum of 0)
+2 increase of the maximum dexterity bonus to AC
1/2 standard weight
+ X stacking MRR

Adamantine:
Provides damage reduction (DR) based on the type of armor that is made from it: Light: 1/- damage reduction Medium: 2/- damage reduction Heavy: 3/- damage reduction
Hardness rating 10 points higher then equivalent steel armor
+X stacking PRR

The value of XP is worth debating. It could be a constant value like 10 or 20. It could scale based on the armor's enhancement value. Or it could be a combination of the two. Shields could also grant more on top of armor.

Intuitively, I personally think X should be about 20.

DagazUlf
06-10-2014, 12:57 PM
Booooooooo.

I hate everything in this post just as much as I loved everything in the original OP. These are terrible concessions to make to the vocal minority who don't care a whit about game balance, but rather only care that their personal builds don't get changed.

If there's no PRR cap, you should remove the dodge cap as well. If there's going to be a dodge cap, there should be a PRR cap. Stick to your original vision.


This ^^^^^^^^^^^. Go with your original plan. I bet you have a gut-feeling that it was the right move.

Lanadazia
06-10-2014, 12:59 PM
IMO the actual problem and the powerlevel split between evasion builds and heavy armor users is not the PRR
but the dodge cap
i'm using light armors and robes on whatever build, even a cleric, to have a higher dodge! i use to have at least 20% dodge on each character
there is no heavy armor out there, that is able to get a dex bonus that high, even some light armors arent able to get there (not even without armored agility stuff)

fact is: right now - PRR < Dodge

you have to put ALOT into getting a high PRR, more effort to get this, dodge is kinda easier to get

i like the introduction of MRR, since dodge wont work on magical effects, but i still think evasion + dodge > prr+mrr


the prr maybe makes you ignore 40% of the damage, but you're getting hit anyways, the dodge will ignore 25% of the hits completely
for example if a mob does 100 damage, and hits you 100 times, the dodge build will dodge on 25%, so you get 75x 100 dmg =7500 damage
whilst the PRR actually reduces damage more frequently: like 60 dmg x100 times = 6000 damage

point is: a 25% dodge is easy to get, i can get up to 29 dodge without gimping myself right now (the dodgecap doesnt allowes me to though)
but the PRR to ignore 50% of the damage is WAY more costly, gimping down alot of dps if you'd play a barb in medium/heavy armor
and since you dont have evasion in heavy/medium armor there is just no point in wearing medium/heavy armor at any time!


also: please fix mithral in matter of PRR!
like the epic cavalery plate is considered medium due to mithral, but lost PRR on the same turn
mithral should be the way to go for high end content armors since its the best material for an armor

Talon_Moonshadow
06-10-2014, 01:12 PM
I'd love a PM about the details, and how much you'd sacrifice by swapping to a Medium shield.

Sev~

I think shields still need to be looked at a little.

.. and DR. WF, Brb, and shield DR. (active and passive).

Differences between bucklers, light, heavy and tower shields....
loot tables for drop rates of them....

stuff like that.

But over all, I like what you are doing.

Still not sure about numbers, and seems to me we are nerfing evasion, at least a little.

Seems like a possible big nerf to Monks. (which is not necessarily a bad thing.)(but I would like high lvl monks, like Mnk20, to still be very durable.)

in this case nerf may not be the right word, but I think the result is the same. (but then, we did all ask for this.....lol)

Madja
06-10-2014, 01:23 PM
Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are discussing an alternate system where robes and light armor have capped or reduced MRR so people who want to build for PRR can do so. Our working model is to only cap MRR and not PRR. We will need a little more time to iron out the details.

Sev~

This makes me very happy :)