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CThruTheEgo
06-06-2014, 02:08 PM
Updated for U24. See post #462 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443235-The-Count-of-Monte-Cristo-dps-CC-survivability-focused-pure-swashbuckler?p=5661014&viewfull=1#post5661014) for a U27 gear set as well as other possible build changes. See post #479 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443235-The-Count-of-Monte-Cristo-dps-CC-survivability-focused-pure-swashbuckler?p=5744003&viewfull=1#post5744003) for a discussion on U29 changes.

The Count of Monte Cristo
Human bard 20
True neutral
36 point build
In-game name: I am not currently playing this build

This is a charisma based human swashbuckler bard 20 that uses a buckler in the offhand. It has excellent melee dps, very well rounded defenses, excellent CC, and good self-healing. Due to this build's ability to adapt and control a multitude of situations, I decided to name it after that most resilient character from one of the greatest stories ever written. Breakdowns on everything can be found below. I'd appreciate any feedback about the build. Thanks in advance.

Build Features:
Excellent offense:
~38% doublestrike, 68% with doublestrike action boost
~Zeal of the righteous
~20% human damage boost
~97+d20 DC coup de grace
~Charisma to damage with a 68 charisma
~335 sonic spell power for resonant arms (6d6 sonic damage on critical hits)
~Swashbuckling stance increased crit range and multiplier on finesse weapons
~Increased crit range from celestial champion and exploit weakness
~Vorpal on 19-20 with reign and thunderstruck effects
~Overwhelming crit
~BAB of 28 with GSWF for max base attack speed
Excellent defense:
~69.4% damage avoidance from 32% dodge, 50% concealment through displacement, and 10% incorporeal from equipment
~44.75% physical damage mitigation from 81 PRR
~31.03% magic damage mitigation from 45 MRR
~Evasion with a 67 reflex save
~Slippery mind with a 53 will save
~887 base HP
~20% increased movement speed
~guardbreaking
Good self healing:
~Quickened cure critical wounds and cure serious wounds with 304 positive spell power and 100 heal amp
~Sacred ground - 113 hp every 3 seconds to all in the area with 0 heal amp, 226 with 100 heal amp
~2056 SP
Excellent CC:
~61 DC Otto's sphere, 79 with debuffs
~97+d20 DC fascinate with music of the sewers, music of the dead, and music of the makers to fascinate oozes (woot?), undead, and constructs
~97+d20 DC low blow shield knockdown

For a layout of the build using EllisDee's planner and without the extra skill points from an int tome, see post #403 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443235-The-Count-of-Monte-Cristo-dps-CC-survivability-focused-pure-swashbuckler?p=5565616&viewfull=1#post5565616).

Stats:
str: 10
dex: 15
con: 16
int: 8
wis: 8
cha: 18

All level points in charisma.
No tomes are required for this build, but they certainly help.
For 34 point builds, lower str to 8.
For 32 point builds, lower str to 8 and con to 15.

Feats:
1 swf
1h shield mastery (see note below)
3 precision
6 spell focus enchantment (took extend initially and swapped in spell focus at 20)
9 iswf
12 imp crit pierce
15 gswf
18 quicken
21 improved shield mastery
24 overwhelming critical
26 perfect twf
27 inspire excellence
28 perfect swf
Note: You can take force of personality instead of shield mastery and swap to shield mastery later (level 20 at the latest). Dashing scoundrel's 10% doublestrike, which requires nothing in the offhand, is more useful for lower levels. It is worth noting, however, that you can get near max dodge very early. I think at level 9 or 10 I had 24% dodge with a buckler equipped. So choose whichever option you prefer – moar dps or moar defense. I switched to buckler at level 9 because I had the Crystal Cove buckler with guardbreaking, which is useful and fun.

Skills: max balance, haggle, heal, intimidate, perform, UMD, 9 jump, 8 bluff, 4 diplo, 1 tumble

Spell List:
1st: focusing chant, feather fall, hypnotism, grease, merfolk's blessing
2nd: blur, invisibility, rage, hypnotic pattern, CMW
3rd: displacement, haste, CSW, good hope, dispel magic
4th: FoM, CCW, dimension door, Otto's sphere of dancing, break enchantment
5th: greater heroism, mind fog, shadow walk, mass CLW, gr dispel magic
6th: Otto's irresistable dance, mass charm monster, mass CMW, heroes feast

Enhancements:
Swashbuckler: 43 total
Core: 6 total
Confidence 1 (1 dodge, reflex, and max dex bonus per core)
Swashbuckling 1 (1 doublestrike, 1 enhancement bonus to weapon, swashbuckling stance)
Uncanny dodge 1 (gain uncanny dodge feat, 1 doublestrike, 1 attack, 1 damage)
Panache 1 (1 doublestrike, 1 attack, 1 damage, 1 enhancement bonus to weapon)
Roll with the punches 1 (5 dodge cap, slippery mind, 1 doublestrike, 1 attack, 1 damage)
Evasive maneuvers 1 (2 dex, 2 cha, evasion, 1 doublestrike, 1 attack, 1 damage, 1 enhancement bonus to weapon)
Tier 1: 4 total
On your toes 3 (3 dodge)
Tavern shanties 1 (1 song)
Tier 2: 8 total
Fast movement 2 (30% movement speed)
Doublestrike action boost 6 (30% doublestrike)
Tier 3: 11 total
Swashbuckling style - skirmisher 1 (10% dodge, swashbuckle with buckler in offhand)
Resonant arms 6 (6d6 sonic on critical)
Different tack - smooth flourishes 2 (cha to damage)
Charisma 2
Tier 4: 3 total
Swashbuckling style II - low blow 1 (shield bash knockdown with perform dc)
Charisma 2
Tier 5: 11 total
Thread the Needle 2 (5 damage with precision)
Second skin 6 (6 reflex, 6 max dex bonus)
Exploit weakness 2 (stacking +1 crit range on non-crit hits until crit hit)
Coup de grace 1 (perform + d20 instakill under certain conditions)

Spellsinger: 23 total
Core: 4 total
Spellsinger 1 (1 spellpower per point spent, each core after this one grants 1 diplo/perform/listen/UMD, 2% sonic/positive spell crit, and 1 enchant/evocation/illusion DC)
Music of the sewers 1 (fascinate oozes)
Music of the dead 1 (fascinate undead)
Music of the makers 1 (fascinate constructs)
Tier 1: 6 total
Magical studies 3 (100 spell points, magical training - echoes of power and 5% spell crit)
Lingering songs 3 (60% song duration)
Tier 2: 7 total
Willful 3 (3 will save)
Wand and scroll mastery 2 (+50% effectiveness of scrolls)
Yellow marigold crown 2 (1 enchantment dc)
Tier 3: 4 total
Spell song trance 2 (1 morale DC, -10% spell cost)
Charisma 2
Tier 4: 2
Charisma 2

Harper: 10 total
Core: 3 total
Agent of good 1 (1 to hit vs evil, 1 universal spell power)
Cha 2
Tier 1: 4 total
Harper enchantment 2 (1 weapon enhancement, 20 spell points)
Traveler's toughness 2 (10 HP)
Tier 2: 3 total
Versatile adept 3 (3 melee/ranged/spell power)

Human: 3 total
Core: 3 total
Damage boost 1 (20% damage)
Human adaptability charisma 2

Warchanter: 1 total
Core: 1 total
Skaldic constitution 1 (1 con)

Epic destiny:
Divine crusader
Tier 1: 5 total
Bane of undeath 2 (2 to hit and 2d6 damage vs undead)
Purge the wicked 1 (2 seeker, purification on crits)
Charisma 2
Tier 2: 5 total
Consecration 3 (28d6 damage to enemies when on consecrated ground)
Charisma 2
Tier 3: 4 total
Sacred ground 2 (heal 101 hp every 3 seconds when on consecrated ground)
Charisma 2
Tier 4: 4 total
Crusade 2 (10% damage when on consecrated ground)
Charisma 2
Tier 5: 4 total
Celestial champion 2 (+1 crit range, celestial fervor - 1% doublestrike on crit, stacks 10 times, lasts 6 seconds)
Charisma 2
Tier 6: 2 total
Charisma 2
Alternatively, you could drop 1-3 charisma and pick up any or all of castigation, heavenly presence, and strike down.
Note: Fatesinger is also a good option that allows you to maintain the CC potential of the build. Fury of the wild and legendary dreadnaught could work as well, but you'd lose 3 DCs in either destiny.

Twists:
1) Reign (fatesinger tier 3, 11d20 sonic and electric on vorpal)
2) Legendary shield mastery (unyielding sentinel tier 2, 15 PRR, 7% doublestrike)
3) Magister enchantment specialist (magister tier 2, +3 enchantment DCs)
Alternatives: energy sheath electric, sense weakness, soundburst SLA, extra action boost, hail of blows, critical damage, grim precision

Gear Set: See post #462 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443235-The-Count-of-Monte-Cristo-dps-CC-survivability-focused-pure-swashbuckler?p=5661014&viewfull=1#post5661014) for a U27 gear set as well as other possible build changes.
Weapons: Thunder-Forged Rapier (1st degree burns/dragon's edge/mortal fear/red slotted devotion138/colorless slotted)
vs fire immune mobs: Thunder-Forged Rapier (touch of shadows/dragon's edge/mortal fear/orange slotted devotion138/colorless slotted)
ranged: Thunder-Forged Throwing Dagger (touch of flames/dragon's edge/mortal fear/orange slotted devotion138/colorless slotted)
Shield: Kobold Admiral's Tiller (dodge10/DR14 vs slash and blunt/guardbreaking/colorless slotted dex2/hidden green slotted proof against poison10)
Armor: Shadowscale light armor (shadow phase x3/deathblock/ghostly/fort130/profane spell DC1/blue slotted HP40/green slotted fear immunity)
Goggles: EN Intricate Field Optics (cha3/spot17/TS/yellow slotted greater enchantment focus2/colorless slotted heal15)
Helm: Mythic Minos Legens (fort150/vitality45/fort save10/sheltering30/insightful con3/unbreakable adamancy/yellow slotted wiz10/green slotted Globe of True Imperial Blood)
Neck: Shroud of Ardent (sheltering30/blur/fear immunity/heal amp60/blue slotted golem's heart/green slotted crushing wave guard)
Trinket: Epic Litany of the Dead (turn the page/profane abilities2/attack4/damage4/light of dawn/blue OR yellow slotted wis8/green slotted wis2)
Cloak: Sage's Mantle (enchantment focus5/illusion focus4)
Belt: Epic Chord of Reprisals (cha11/resonance144/perform20/soundproof/roar/sheltering24/yellow slotted blindness immunity/green slotted sonic resistance40)
Ring swap: EE Consuming Darkness (seeker12/combat mastery5/green slotted proof against disease10)
Gloves: Sanctified Gages (UMD5/2d6 light damage/deadly11/greater dispelling guard/blue OR yellow slotted str8/green slotted str2)
Boots: Epic Boots of the Innocent (resistance11/speed15/GH/vertigo12/stunning12/shatter12/yellow slotted water breathing/green slotted protection8)
Ring: Skirmisher's Ring (con8/thunderstruck/yellow slotted anthem)
Bracers: Epic Ethereal Bracers (dex11/riposte9/insight AC5/insight saves4/ghostly/deadly10/speed14/feather falling/yellow slotted draconic soul gem/green slotted natural armor8)
Quiver: Epic Quiver of Alacrity (concentration -50/speed15/ranged and spell threat -15%/insightful sneak4/doublshot8)

Gear Notes: Here is a list compiled by EllisDee37 of named swashbuckler weapons with an improved crit profile (http://ddowiki.com/page/List_of_Swashbuckler_weapons_with_improved_crit_pr ofile).
See post #73 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443235-The-Count-of-Monte-Cristo-dps-CC-survivability-focused-pure-swashbuckler?p=5368470&viewfull=1#post5368470) and post #75 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443235-The-Count-of-Monte-Cristo-dps-CC-survivability-focused-pure-swashbuckler?p=5368482&viewfull=1#post5368482) for other heroic weapon suggestions.
See post #343 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443235-The-Count-of-Monte-Cristo-dps-CC-survivability-focused-pure-swashbuckler?p=5504359&viewfull=1#post5504359) for a gear setup from level 15 and up by UurlockYgmeov.
See post #366 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443235-The-Count-of-Monte-Cristo-dps-CC-survivability-focused-pure-swashbuckler?p=5509026&viewfull=1#post5509026) for a level 20 gear set composed primarily of Eveningstar commendation turn in rewards and Wheloon/Stormhorns end rewards.

Final Stats:
str34: 10base, 5tome, 8item, 2insight, 1exceptional, 2rage, 2competence, 2profane, 2ship
dex42: 15base, 5tome, 2capstone, 11item, 2insight, 1exceptional, 2competence, 2profane, 2ship
con44: 16base, 5tome, 11item, 2insight, 1exceptional, 1warchanter, 2rage, 2competence, 2profane, 2ship
int20: 8base, 5tome, 1exceptional, 2competence, 2profane, 2ship
wis30: 8base, 5tome, 8item, 2insight, 1exceptional, 2competence, 2profane, 2ship
cha68: 18base, 6tome, 7levels, 11item, 3insight, 1exceptional, 1human, 2swashbuckler, 2spellsinger, 2capstone, 1harper, 6divine crusader, 2competence, 2profane, 2ship, 2yugo
Note: No tomes are actually required for this build.

HP:
120 base
80 epic levels
25 heroic durability
20 improved heroic durability
10 draconic vitality
11 epic primal past life
50 divine crusader cores
10 harper traveler's toughness
476 con44
40 false life slotted
45 vitality
20 hag's apothecary ship buff
887 TOTAL
48 yugo
935 self buffed

SP:
525 base
250 slotted
100 magical training
1036 cha66 at level 28
125 divine crusader
20 harper enchantment
25 arcane sanctum ship buff
2056 TOTAL

Fort/Reflex/Will Saves:
6/12/12 base
4/4/4 epic
11/11/11 item
4/4/4 insight
2/2/2 good luck
1/1/1 alchemical
4/4/4 greater heroism
1/0/0 competence (inspire greatness)
0/6/0 swashbuckler cores
0/6/0 swashbuckler second skin
0/0/3 willful (spellsinger tier 2)
3/0/0 game hunter ship buff
0/2/0 chronoscope ship buff
0/0/2 grandmaster's dojo ship buff
0/15/0 dex40
15/0/0 con40
0/0/10 wis30
51/67/53 TOTAL

Dodge:
6 swashbuckler cores
3 on your toes
10 skirmisher
10 Kobold Admiral's Tiller
4 inspire heroics
1 haste
34 TOTAL 32 is max dodge bonus
Max dex bonus on Shadow Dragonhide Armor is 33 with swashbuckler cores, second skin, and fencing master ship buff but max dodge is 32 with fencing master ship buff and roll with the punches.

PRR:
16 light armor with BAB 28
15 light armor
20 legendary shield mastery
30 Mythic Minos Legens
81 TOTAL (44.75% damage reduction)

MRR:
15 light armor
30 Mythic Minos Legens
45 TOTAL (31.03% magic damage reduction)

Heal Amp:
20 divine crusader
60 item
20 ship buff
100 TOTAL

Otto's Sphere DC:
10 base
4 levels
29 cha68
1 spell focus enchantment
3 magister enchantment specialist
1 yellow marigold crown
3 spellsinger cores
5 Sage's Mantle
2 slotted
1 profane on shadowscale armor
1 archwizard ship buff
1 spell song trance
61 TOTAL
3 hypnotic pattern
5 crushing despair
10 mind fog
79 TOTAL DEBUFFED

Perform:
23 ranks
8 epic
4 tome
3 spellsinger cores
29 cha68
20 item
2 good luck
1 elite spider cult mask
2 Otto's irresistable dance hall ship buff
4 GH
1 focusing chant
97 TOTAL

Positive Spell Power:
11 ranks
8 epic
3 tome
10 wis30
23 spellsinger
1 harper agent of good
1 harper versatile adept
10 divine crusader
33 implement
138 red augment
15 slotted
2 good luck
1 elite spider cult mask
3 forbidden library ship buff
15 crusader's chapel
4 GH
1 focusing chant
25 superior ardor pot
304 TOTAL

Sonic Spell Power:
95 perform
23 spellsinger
1 harper agent of good
1 harper versatile adept
36 implement
144 item
15 stormreaver memorial monument ship buff
20 greater cacophony pot
335 TOTAL

Doublestrike:
3 martial past life
5 swashbuckler cores
15 legendary shield mastery
5 perfect twf
10 celestial fervor (gain 1 doublestrike on crit, stacks 10 times but does not stack with items, this is easy to maintain on this build so it's worth including)
38% TOTAL
30 action boost
68% TOTAL

To-Hit:
28 BAB divine crusader's just cause (1st core)
3 enhancement from swashbuckler cores
4 from swashbuckler cores
12 str34
4 profane
4 morale (inspire courage)
2 competence (inspire greatness)
13 enhancement
2 tactical training room ship buff
72 TOTAL
Add to this the 20% base percent chance that all characters get as well as the 5% percent bonus from precision.

junta64
06-06-2014, 02:33 PM
One quick tweak. You can't take the single weapon fighting feat at first level as of right now. It needs balance first.

CThruTheEgo
06-06-2014, 02:42 PM
One quick tweak. You can't take the single weapon fighting feat at first level as of right now. It needs balance first.

I figured it would accept the skill points that you spend at first level since (if I remember correctly) you spend skill points before feats. Does it not work this way on Lam?

junta64
06-06-2014, 02:53 PM
I figured it would accept the skill points that you spend at first level since (if I remember correctly) you spend skill points before feats. Does it not work this way on Lam?

Not currently working. Not sure if they're going to change it before it goes live. You need to be level 3 to swashbuckle anyway.

legendkilleroll
06-06-2014, 02:53 PM
I figured it would accept the skill points that you spend at first level since (if I remember correctly) you spend skill points before feats. Does it not work this way on Lam?

Previous lam rounds it wouldn't let you take swf at lv1 but most recent lam build allowed me to do so, so should no longer be an issue ????

junta64
06-06-2014, 02:57 PM
Been using the same build the whole time. Guess its time to try a new one.

unbongwah
06-06-2014, 03:10 PM
Precision requires BAB 1 so you can't take it at lvl 1. Not a big deal, though, just swap Precision with Shield Mastery.

I've been debating whether Shield Mastery line is worth it on a pure Swashbuckler. Pros: PRR & 15% doublestrike (5% higher than SB w/no offhand) and threat amp if you're going that route; con: two more feats on an already feat-starved build. In particular it seems unfortunate not to have Emp Heal & Heighten.

CThruTheEgo
06-06-2014, 03:35 PM
Previous lam rounds it wouldn't let you take swf at lv1 but most recent lam build allowed me to do so, so should no longer be an issue ????

Thanks for the info.


Precision requires BAB 1 so you can't take it at lvl 1. Not a big deal, though, just swap Precision with Shield Mastery.

Good catch. Thanks for the heads up.


I've been debating whether Shield Mastery line is worth it on a pure Swashbuckler. Pros: PRR & 15% doublestrike (5% higher than SB w/no offhand) and threat amp if you're going that route; con: two more feats on an already feat-starved build. In particular it seems unfortunate not to have Emp Heal & Heighten.

Heighten is only 2 DCs on Otto's sphere. I don't have any experience with enchantment DCs, but I've been told that 60 is the magic number, which I can easily reach with debuffs, so I don't think heighten is worth it.

I do wish I could fit something to boost cure spells. I'd go with maximize if I could spare the feat, just for the extra oomph. But with the well rounded defenses on this build and the healing I'll get from sacred ground, I think I'll be fine without maximize.

But I figure 2 feats and a twist for 20 PRR, 10% dodge, and 15% doublestrike (or 5% if you want to compare it to nothing in the offhand) is a good deal. I think the healing and CC will be good enough, the shield line really brings a lot of defense, and you can never have too much dps.

Maelodic
06-06-2014, 04:01 PM
Thanks for the writeup! I was also really tempted to roll in divine crusader and may end up doing it though the gross amount of songs Fatesinger adds is pretty fricken awesome. Turn the Tide is such a trashstomper too.

If you haven't tried this on lama yet and you haven't tried twisting in haste boost- it's absolutely wonderful.
You may also consider using Strike Down- if you're not fascinate-soloing it's actually a really fantastic way to whittle down the masses (Dirge does okay too but not as oomphy)



But I figure 2 feats and a twist for 20 PRR, 10% dodge, and 15% doublestrike (or 5% if you want to compare it to nothing in the offhand) is a good deal. I think the healing and CC will be good enough, the shield line really brings a lot of defense, and you can never have too much dps.

The 10% dodge bonus will come whether or not you have any Shield mastery- but the 15% doublestrike I find worth it- as a CC bard- you really don't need AoE options as much because you can control the masses quite easily. If I wasn't using that, I'd probably go the PA/Cleave/Great Cleave route though- with your ability bonus being doubled combined with exploit weakness- they tend to hit like a truck.
I like the 20 PRR.

I hope my write up helped a bit with this :)

giftie
06-06-2014, 04:11 PM
which I can easily reach with debuffs, so I don't think heighten is worth it.

It's not quite that easy, in my experience. Mind Fog is excellent, and I usually couple it with Otto's, but you need to break will DC in order to apply the debuff to begin with. Assuming an automatic -10 will is a mistake, especially if one's on the lower end of the DC scale already. Hypnotic Pattern is excellent, but in practice only used when soloing due to the graphic effect. Hypnotism and Crushing Despair are both solid debuffs, but are difficult to actually use effectively.

Other than that, very solid build.

jakeelala
06-06-2014, 04:17 PM
since I play a human in real life, I sort of enjoy playing other classes in game.

Halfling/Drow/Elf variants would just drop SF:Enchant I guess. Is that a prereq for anything important? 1 DC isn't going to make much difference I dont think.

giftie
06-06-2014, 04:19 PM
since I play a human in real life, I sort of enjoy playing other classes in game.

Halfling/Drow/Elf variants would just drop SF:Enchant I guess. Is that a prereq for anything important? 1 DC isn't going to make much difference I dont think.

It's a pre-req for Enchantment Specialization, a Magister twist, which is another +3 DC.

CThruTheEgo
06-06-2014, 04:44 PM
Thanks for the writeup! I was also really tempted to roll in divine crusader and may end up doing it though the gross amount of songs Fatesinger adds is pretty fricken awesome. Turn the Tide is such a trashstomper too.

I'm sure that I'll give fatesinger a try and see how I like it compared to divine crusader. I'm really looking forward to having a build that will actually make good use of fatesinger instead of just trying to level through it. :)


If you haven't tried this on lama yet and you haven't tried twisting in haste boost- it's absolutely wonderful.
You may also consider using Strike Down- if you're not fascinate-soloing it's actually a really fantastic way to whittle down the masses (Dirge does okay too but not as oomphy)

The character I will TR into this build is currently leveling through divine crusader, so I'm still learning it. I may very well change some of what I have planned here by the time I get back to epic levels with this build. Strike down does look like a solid ability.


The 10% dodge bonus will come whether or not you have any Shield mastery- but the 15% doublestrike I find worth it- as a CC bard- you really don't need AoE options as much because you can control the masses quite easily. If I wasn't using that, I'd probably go the PA/Cleave/Great Cleave route though- with your ability bonus being doubled combined with exploit weakness- they tend to hit like a truck.
I like the 20 PRR.

I figure if I wasn't going with the shield feats, then I'd probably go for nothing in the offhand for the extra doublestrike anyway, so I just consider the 10% dodge as part of the whole package.


I hope my write up helped a bit with this :)

I was actually waiting to see if you took my suggestion about including spell focus enchant and building for DCs. Since you didn't I figured this build is different enough to warrant its own thread, but if you had I wasn't going to bother posting this since there wouldn't be much difference between them.


It's not quite that easy, in my experience. Mind Fog is excellent, and I usually couple it with Otto's, but you need to break will DC in order to apply the debuff to begin with. Assuming an automatic -10 will is a mistake, especially if one's on the lower end of the DC scale already. Hypnotic Pattern is excellent, but in practice only used when soloing due to the graphic effect. Hypnotism and Crushing Despair are both solid debuffs, but are difficult to actually use effectively.

Other than that, very solid build.

As I said, I don't have any experience with enchantment spells or DCs. I am expecting that it will take some getting use to. You've given me some ideas for adjusting playstyle, so thank you. I'm thinking drop Otto's sphere, mind fog just before it, hypnotic pattern just before that, and try to hit em with crushing despair as they go through hypnotic pattern. So they should have -8 by the time they hit the mind fog, giving it an effective DC of 62. I understand that some players don't like hypnotic pattern, but if it means solid CC and no damage in an EE run, I figure they won't mind that much. :) Alternatively, I could just use hypnotism and crushing despair as they approach the mind fog/Otto's sphere combo.

I may make some adjustments once I actually try this out in high level EEs. But I like the prospect of solid CC so I'm willing to give it a try.


since I play a human in real life, I sort of enjoy playing other classes in game.

Halfling/Drow/Elf variants would just drop SF:Enchant I guess. Is that a prereq for anything important? 1 DC isn't going to make much difference I dont think.

Yeah as giftie pointed out, this one feat gets me a total of 4 DCs, which I think will make a difference.

jakeelala
06-06-2014, 04:57 PM
It's a pre-req for Enchantment Specialization, a Magister twist, which is another +3 DC.

hmmm, I doubt I'd twist that on this build. Then again, maybe. Wiki states no prereqs for the School specialties in Magister. I know DI DC requires a feat, not sure Magister does.

What about the Magister twist that gives -10 Will Saves 15% of the time on Enchantment school spells? Wouldn't that be more useful?

CThruTheEgo
06-06-2014, 05:27 PM
hmmm, I doubt I'd twist that on this build. Then again, maybe. Wiki states no prereqs for the School specialties in Magister. I know DI DC requires a feat, not sure Magister does.

What about the Magister twist that gives -10 Will Saves 15% of the time on Enchantment school spells? Wouldn't that be more useful?

Spell school specialist does require the first spell focus feat as a pre-req, wiki is just wrong as it occasionally is.

As far as twisting spell school augmentation instead (that's the one that has a 15% chance to debuff for -10), I don't intend to be constantly spamming enchantment spells, which is what you need to do for that to really be effective.

Maelodic
06-07-2014, 12:48 AM
Just kind of a whoopsie, and not something I'd expect you to know but Skirmisher (buckler style) now adds 10% dodge.

So just with Balizarde and the enhancements, you'll hit dodge cap- I'm not sure if that would free up your boots selection but there it is.

CThruTheEgo
06-07-2014, 07:16 AM
Just kind of a whoopsie, and not something I'd expect you to know but Skirmisher (buckler style) now adds 10% dodge.

So just with Balizarde and the enhancements, you'll hit dodge cap- I'm not sure if that would free up your boots selection but there it is.

I did know that skirmisher was changed from 7 to 10 but forgot to change it here. I also forgot that Balizarde has dodge on it. That does help my gearing options considerably but I'll likely end up using thunderforged, though not for quite a while, so I'll need to fit dodge in somewhere else eventually. By then I might have a whole new gear set though, so dodge on Balizarde is good enough for now. Thanks for pointing these out.

EDIT: That actually lets me put con10 of perform20 in the boots slot and use the Battlerager's Harness for even more dps. And I get an extra slot to fit in feather falling... uhm, woot?

unbongwah
06-07-2014, 11:57 AM
I do wish I could fit something to boost cure spells. I'd go with maximize if I could spare the feat, just for the extra oomph. But with the well rounded defenses on this build and the healing I'll get from sacred ground, I think I'll be fine without maximize.
I went with Emp Heal on my TWF pure bard; I'm a Spellsinger, so I've got Heal, Rejuv Cocoon, CCW, and MCMW. I think I would drop FoP: between FoM (Hold immunity) and UMDing Prot. from Evil (Command immunity), that covers most Will spells.

CThruTheEgo
06-07-2014, 02:57 PM
I went with Emp Heal on my TWF pure bard; I'm a Spellsinger, so I've got Heal, Rejuv Cocoon, CCW, and MCMW. I think I would drop FoP: between FoM (Hold immunity) and UMDing Prot. from Evil (Command immunity), that covers most Will spells.

AFAIK neither FoM or protection from evil negates dancing balls, which seems to be the will save spell that gets me the most. You can avoid them when they're already there, but not when they get dropped right on top of you.

I've stopped using protection from evil wands on my UMD characters because it doesn't seem to do anything in epics. I noticed myself getting commanded with it and then saw someone on the forums report that it isn't working in epics, and that seems to match my experience with it. The description on wiki also states that it may not be working in epics.

I agree that will saves used to be pretty much useless since the appropriate buffs would negate the need for them altogether. Without those buffs I think will save has become more important, not as much as reflex but still something I'd like to have if it doesn't require too much investment.

Sacred ground provides excellent healing. Between that and CCW/CSW, I'm not worried about not having anything to boost the spells. If the spells were going to be my only source of healing, then I could see a stronger argument for empower heal or maximize.

So overall I think force of personality rounds out this builds defenses well and has little cost for the benefit.

CThruTheEgo
06-09-2014, 08:49 AM
I verified in game yesterday that the wiki entry was wrong for sacred ground, it costs two points instead of one. So I dropped one charisma from divine crusader and one from spellsinger. I end up with one point left to spend in divine crusader, but there isn't really anything good to spend it on.

I took the two points from spellsinger charisma and picked up music of the sewers and music of the dead. With all of the undead in endgame content I wanted to fit in music of the dead anyway. This also allowed me to drop the one point spent on charlatan to spend it on human damage boost.

So overall, I lost one DC but gained more versatile CC and better burst dps.

Purkilius
06-11-2014, 08:46 AM
Like the build :)

Only thing I see is that I would use litany for trinket when you use the TF weapon!

CThruTheEgo
06-11-2014, 09:49 AM
Like the build :)

Only thing I see is that I would use litany for trinket when you use the TF weapon!

I'll need to readjust the whole gear set when I switch to Thunderforged since I'm currently relying on Balizarde for both dodge and good luck. But I won't be switching to Thunderforged until I get it to tier 3, which won't be for a while since I'm working on weapons for other characters first. I'll keep Litany in mind though. Thanks for the suggestion.

gwonbush
06-11-2014, 10:24 AM
There's an error in your dodge calculation: Uncanny Dodge in Swashbuckler does not give any dodge whatsoever. It just gives you the ability to pump up your dodge by an extra 25% (not effected by cap) and gain +4 to reflex for 20 seconds every 3 minutes.

However, this is compensated by the fact that Inspire Heroics gives 4% dodge and Haste gives 1%, still leaving you at 32% dodge with ship buffs.

Bolo_Grubb
06-11-2014, 10:30 AM
interesting build, I might have to LR my Spellsinger into this.

Purkilius
06-11-2014, 10:33 AM
I'll need to readjust the whole gear set when I switch to Thunderforged since I'm currently relying on Balizarde for both dodge and good luck. But I won't be switching to Thunderforged until I get it to tier 3, which won't be for a while since I'm working on weapons for other characters first. I'll keep Litany in mind though. Thanks for the suggestion.

Know the feeling was using the Balizarde on my sorc for prr and saves still use it though when I need the extra defence.

CThruTheEgo
06-11-2014, 10:48 AM
There's an error in your dodge calculation: Uncanny Dodge in Swashbuckler does not give any dodge whatsoever. It just gives you the ability to pump up your dodge by an extra 25% (not effected by cap) and gain +4 to reflex for 20 seconds every 3 minutes.

However, this is compensated by the fact that Inspire Heroics gives 4% dodge and Haste gives 1%, still leaving you at 32% dodge with ship buffs.

Thanks for the heads up. I'm not on Lamannia so I've got somewhat of a disadvantage when it comes to accurate info.

Jhaeran
06-11-2014, 11:05 AM
Looks very interesting:
34 pt build thought?
Any advice for 20+ bridge gear?

CThruTheEgo
06-11-2014, 11:46 AM
Looks very interesting:
34 pt build thought?

I'd start str at 10. The only stat requirements are 13 dex for precision and 13 cha for force of personality. Dex is important for the reflex save, con is important for hp, and cha is important for spell DCs, instakill DCs, and damage. Str is only used for to-hit and having it anywhere in the 30s will allow you to hit reliably even in EE.


Any advice for 20+ bridge gear?

I haven't figured that out myself yet. I'll probably use a Star of Day (eveningstar cleric com turn in) at 20. I grabbed the Sage's ring from heroic What Goes Up end reward which gives 8 cha at level 19. The Guardian's Ring from there is also a good option for PRR. I have a set of dragontouched light armor with heal amp 10/heal amp20/devotion84 that I'll use until I switch to black dragonscale. The PDK gloves are a good early level substitute for the Iron Mitts. That's about as far as I've gotten. I'll probably use some other Wheloon/Stormhorns end reward items and eveningstar com turn in items, but I don't know what yet.

Hope that helps.

Nayus
06-11-2014, 01:59 PM
This build looks completely awesome but what makes it even more awesome is that everything seems incredibly easy to acquire, anyone could easily play this in a first lifer.
I'm trying to make an intelligent comment for 20 minutes now but everytime I write something I notice I was wrong and delete it.

I will be netdecking it, thanks for posting =D

Nerf Bards.

CThruTheEgo
06-13-2014, 08:55 AM
This build looks completely awesome but what makes it even more awesome is that everything seems incredibly easy to acquire, anyone could easily play this in a first lifer.
I'm trying to make an intelligent comment for 20 minutes now but everytime I write something I notice I was wrong and delete it.

I will be netdecking it, thanks for posting =D

Nerf Bards.

Thank you. The accessibility of this build stood out to me as well. Past lives, tomes, etc. always help, but are certainly not needed.

Bolo_Grubb
06-13-2014, 06:12 PM
why shield mastery? I thought you could not use a shield only orb or rune arm?

edit: never mind, reading comprehension failure :-)

CThruTheEgo
06-13-2014, 07:29 PM
why shield mastery? I thought you could not use a shield only orb or rune arm?

edit: never mind, reading comprehension failure :-)

Not your fault. It is very confusing. SWF only works with nothing, orb, or rune arm in the offhand. The enhancement swashbuckling style - skirmisher, enables SWF with a buckler in the offhand. Swashbuckler only works with nothing or a buckler in the offhand. The enhancements swashbuckling style - arcane marauder and cannoneer, enable swashbuckling with an orb or rune arm in the offhand. It's not simple by any means and I'm not sure why Turbine went through the trouble of making it so complicated lol. It will be some time before these distinctions become common knowledge and even then we will still have people confused over this.

Maelodic
06-13-2014, 11:55 PM
Not your fault. It is very confusing. SWF only works with nothing, orb, or rune arm in the offhand. The enhancement swashbuckling style - skirmisher, enables SWF with a buckler in the offhand. Swashbuckler only works with nothing or a buckler in the offhand. The enhancements swashbuckling style - arcane marauder and cannoneer, enable swashbuckling with an orb or rune arm in the offhand. It's not simple by any means and I'm not sure why Turbine went through the trouble of making it so complicated lol. It will be some time before these distinctions become common knowledge and even then we will still have people confused over this.

This is especially true since the Shield Mastery feats apply the bonuses when wearing an orb.

CThruTheEgo
06-15-2014, 02:34 AM
This is especially true since the Shield Mastery feats apply the bonuses when wearing an orb.

Yeah there's also that, which I still don't fully understand. I think you get the doublestrike but not the PRR, but I don't know for sure.

———————————

Currently level 5 with the build and having a blast. I moved some feats around. The dps benefits of using a buckler don't really come until you get legendary shield mastery, and the defensive benefits aren't really needed in heroics. I also noticed I was getting held in a few quests. So I moved force of personality to level 1 and precision to level 3. It's more survivable this way. I moved the shield mastery feats to levels 21 and 24, so I'll be going with nothing in the offhand until level 21 when I'll start using the Epic Swashbuckler. Spell focus enchant and quicken will be taken at levels 6 and 18, respectively.

I'll continue to update with any other changes I make along the way.

CThruTheEgo
06-16-2014, 08:41 AM
So I realized last night that inspire recklessness has a bunch of useless pre-reqs so I'd have to free up 9 points in warchanter to take it, which I could do, but that basically means that 6 doublestrike is costing me 12 AP and that seems a bit expensive. It is a party buff though, so it's 6 doublestrike for any melee in the group, but the benefit of that is heavily dependent on group composition.

I could also just drop most stuff from warchanter. There's still some good stuff in swashbuckler I wouldn't mind having, as well as a few things from human. I'd certainly be able to pick up 1 more DC from more cha.

Anyone have any thought or suggestions?

Bolo_Grubb
06-16-2014, 08:57 AM
well I did an LR of my level 25 pure bard into a swashbuckler. I used all the feats and enhancements you posted in the original post. My gear is not the same though. I am currently using the Admiral's tiller and a Balizarde most of the time.

I am having a blast. Much more melee ability then before the LR. Songs are less important, but still nice. I am considering some tweaks to enhancements to suit my play style better. Still need to play it a bit more first though.

hi_sa1nt
06-16-2014, 02:22 PM
Yeah there's also that, which I still don't fully understand. I think you get the doublestrike but not the PRR, but I don't know for sure.

———————————

Currently level 5 with the build and having a blast. I moved some feats around. The dps benefits of using a buckler don't really come until you get legendary shield mastery, and the defensive benefits aren't really needed in heroics. I also noticed I was getting held in a few quests. So I moved force of personality to level 1 and precision to level 3. It's more survivable this way. I moved the shield mastery feats to levels 21 and 24, so I'll be going with nothing in the offhand until level 21 when I'll start using the Epic Swashbuckler. Spell focus enchant and quicken will be taken at levels 6 and 18, respectively.

I'll continue to update with any other changes I make along the way.

Just to clarify, the biggest benefit for going pure is gaining Evasion with capstone?

giftie
06-16-2014, 05:45 PM
Just to clarify, the biggest benefit for going pure is gaining Evasion with capstone?

If the biggest benefit of going pure was evasion, then everyone would splash 2 Rogue instead.

Maelodic does a pretty thorough breakdown (vs splashing 2 Rogue):

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443015-U22-Maelodic-Merrily-Murdering-the-Masses-(20-Bard)?p=5355598&viewfull=1#post5355598

I'd lack to add that splash loses 2 caster levels (ie +2 spell penetration) and 2 songs.

Anoregon
06-16-2014, 08:20 PM
This is a cool looking build. I have a 22 Arti I haven't played in months that I think I'll TR to human bard to do a 34 (10 str) version. Should be fun!

Maelodic
06-16-2014, 11:17 PM
So I realized last night that inspire recklessness has a bunch of useless pre-reqs so I'd have to free up 9 points in warchanter to take it, which I could do, but that basically means that 6 doublestrike is costing me 12 AP and that seems a bit expensive. It is a party buff though, so it's 6 doublestrike for any melee in the group, but the benefit of that is heavily dependent on group composition.

I could also just drop most stuff from warchanter. There's still some good stuff in swashbuckler I wouldn't mind having, as well as a few things from human. I'd certainly be able to pick up 1 more DC from more cha.

Anyone have any thought or suggestions?

Nobody's really addressed this yet-

I honestly don't think it's worth it. The song only lasts three minutes- so every three minutes you'll need to sing it and it's not effected by anything that increases your song duration. It's kind of an obnoxious buff to keep up especially since it's not instant. It can and will run out in horrible times and you'll find yourself not rebuffing it because it's such a DPS drop.
There are so many other goodies that bards can get for the same amount of AP that I dropped it, some of the racial trees can do the same things too- honestly most of the stuff in Warchanter is pretty lack luster. Frozen Fury would be good if it also scaled on Bard level- but even with 60 CHA you're only getting a DC of 39.



On a side note- when they update spell singer, I may do what you're doing only with Evocation. Soundbursts galore and other goodies may be nice.

Something I hadn't recommended (and too late to do so now) is Drow- you can get +1 more CHA and +1 more DC for trading out an extra feat, probably FoP.

giftie
06-17-2014, 05:18 AM
Something I hadn't recommended (and too late to do so now) is Drow- you can get +1 more CHA and +1 more DC for trading out an extra feat, probably FoP.

+3 CHA. Drow can start at base 20.

CThruTheEgo
06-18-2014, 06:11 AM
I honestly don't think it's worth it. The song only lasts three minutes- so every three minutes you'll need to sing it and it's not effected by anything that increases your song duration. It's kind of an obnoxious buff to keep up especially since it's not instant. It can and will run out in horrible times and you'll find yourself not rebuffing it because it's such a DPS drop.
There are so many other goodies that bards can get for the same amount of AP that I dropped it, some of the racial trees can do the same things too- honestly most of the stuff in Warchanter is pretty lack luster. Frozen Fury would be good if it also scaled on Bard level- but even with 60 CHA you're only getting a DC of 39.

Thanks for the feedback Maelodic. I remember you saying that you dropped inspire recklessness, and now I understand why. When I thought I could take iced edges and northwind (an average of 6.2 damage per hit) or words of encouragement and obstinance (24 positive spell power) I didn't mind spending the points since I was gaining something from them, even if it wasn't amazing. But the pre-reqs are absolutely useless. Knowing that it's not affected by song duration makes a difference as well.

I'll miss the 6% doublestrike, but I'll be glad to take more from the swashbuckler and human trees. I'm tempted to drop the 6 PRR from warchanter since that doesn't amount to much and just not spend anything in there, but I'll definitely miss sprint boost if I do. It's addicting.

Jhaeran
06-18-2014, 07:37 AM
Really appreciate all the detail.

Would you mind updating your original post with the change in mindset regarding enhancements. Have a couple guildies trying out your build and they really like it.

CThruTheEgo
06-18-2014, 08:32 AM
Really appreciate all the detail.

Would you mind updating your original post with the change in mindset regarding enhancements. Have a couple guildies trying out your build and they really like it.

Thank you. I'm still trying to work out the enhancement changes. Hopefully I'll have them done and posted within a few hours.

unbongwah
06-18-2014, 08:55 AM
I'm tempted to drop the 6 PRR from warchanter since that doesn't amount to much and just not spend anything in there, but I'll definitely miss sprint boost if I do. It's addicting.
My view is it's usually worth spending at least 11 APs in WC for Song of Heroism; I take extra songs, Gathering Cold + Iced Edges, couple of filler APs.

CThruTheEgo
06-18-2014, 11:00 AM
My view is it's usually worth spending at least 11 APs in WC for Song of Heroism; I take extra songs, Gathering Cold + Iced Edges, couple of filler APs.

Yeah there are some decent enhancements in warchanter, which is why I didn't mind spending 20 points to access inspire recklessness. I agree that song of heroism is nice, but at the same time, enough players are able to provide their own GH that passing it out to those who don't have it shouldn't be a big deal most of the time. I can always scroll it if I really need to conserve sp. Iced edges would work nice on this build since it procs on crit and lasts for 3 seconds. With all the crits this build will do, I think it's safe to assume that it will be up all the time. But then it's only an extra 3.5 average damage per hit so it's certainly not game changing. So overall, I'm not sure these outweigh what's available from swashbuckler and human, although none of them seem to be build defining anyway.

CThruTheEgo
06-18-2014, 11:07 AM
I updated the enhancements with a few changes. I have 15 points left to spend among the following:

Swashbuckler:
Tier 1:
Blow by blow 3 (+3 threat and 3d6 sonic attack, cooldown ?)
Tier 2:
Deflect arrows 2
Sword dance 6 (d20 sonic damage when missed, scales with sonic spell power)
Tier 3:
Elegant footwork 2 (20% chance of knockdown when missed, cooldown 12 seconds)

Human:
Tier 1:
Negotiator 3 (3 perform)
Action surge charisma 2 (2 charisma with action boost)
Tier 2:
Self-sufficient 1 (1 heal)
Tier 3:
Improved recovery 2 (10% heal amp)
Skill master 2 (1 to all skills)
Tier 4:
Improved recovery 2 (10% heal amp)

Warchanter:
Core:
Skaldic rage 1
Fighting spirit 1 (10 HP, 1 damage with inspire courage)
Song of heroism 1 (greater heroism song to all allies)
Tier 1:
Rough and ready 3 (6 PRR, 6 AC)
Enchant weapon 2
Tier 2:
Sprint boost 1 (35% run speed)
Gathering cold 1 (some lame stuff)
Iced edges 2 (d6 cold on hit for 3 seconds after crit hit)
Tier 3:
Northwind 6 (6d8 cold on vorpal)
Cha 2

I've already mentioned my thoughts on the warchanter options in the post above. Rough and ready grants an additional 1.7% damage reduction, so not a big deal to lose. I know the cooldown for rank 1 of blow by blow is 12 seconds. If that doesn't change with higher ranks, then I don't see this as worth the investment. Deflect arrows can't be improved beyond the 6 seconds and that seems fairly weak. Elegant footwork has a cooldown of 12 seconds, which makes it a less attractive option imo. Sword dance seems like a decent option.

I could get an additional total of 37% with tier 4 human heal amp. But the points to get there are somewhat wasted. More perform really isn't needed, but why not I guess. Action surge charisma isn't bad.

Overall, none of the options are that significant, but I'm leaning towards heal amp just for better survivability. Thoughts anyone?

CThruTheEgo
06-18-2014, 11:26 AM
Just to clarify, the biggest benefit for going pure is gaining Evasion with capstone?

Maelodic's post that giftie linked sums it up well. And I think comparing it to 2 rogue is exactly how you should think about it. With all the reflex bonuses that swashbuckler gets, even on a non-dex based build having evasion seems like a no-brainer imo. You'd have to have some very good reasons NOT to get evasion. So if you're not staying pure, then 2 rogue is pretty much a given.

The main reasons to splash are: trap skills, need more feats (fighter), stalwart defender (6 fighter), divine might (cleric or FvS). The benfit of any of those needs to be weighed against what you get from staying pure and what your goals are with the build.

Maelodic
06-18-2014, 12:29 PM
I updated the enhancements with a few changes. I have 15 points left to spend. Thoughts anyone?

Swords Dance in Heroics is great, but it's pretty meh at endgame.
I'd consider using Song of Heroism/Sprint Boost- both are just super useful. 10% healing amplification is pretty great too- but I'd only switch to that if you find you have a hard time surviving.

Maelodic
06-18-2014, 12:44 PM
Maelodic's post that giftie linked sums it up well. And I think comparing it to 2 rogue is exactly how you should think about it. With all the reflex bonuses that swashbuckler gets, even on a non-dex based build having evasion seems like a no-brainer imo. You'd have to have some very good reasons NOT to get evasion. So if you're not staying pure, then 2 rogue is pretty much a given.

The main reasons to splash are: trap skills, need more feats (fighter), stalwart defender (6 fighter), divine might (cleric or FvS). The benfit of any of those needs to be weighed against what you get from staying pure and what your goals are with the build.

Stalwart Defender/Divine Might/Swashbuckler is actually a pretty high damage and fairly tanky combo- missing out on evasion stings but the damages man, the damages.
With the new changes coming to armor (prr/mrr) using medium armor on such a build would be possible and viable- specifically with Elf- and you'd get some pretty neat defenses-:
25 PR
+3 Saves
20% more HP
6 STR (Negated by lack of skaldic and rage- can also do 6 CON, but you'd actually be down on STR)

Obviously the +20% HP is probably the biggest thing there.

If I were to multiclass the Bard, I'd probably do:
16 Bard/2 Rogue/2 FvS
STR Based, as a Drow, using Swort Swords. This can get you:
Divine Might
Articles of Faith
15 HP
10 PRR
+2 Enhancement Bonus

Even in this build- Divine Might puts your strength above your charisma. On a STR/CHA build you could easily shoot it much higher. Having your shortsword be an implement is great, especially with the large amount of enhancement bonuses you get.

Holybird
06-18-2014, 02:17 PM
Stalwart Defender/Divine Might/Swashbuckler is actually a pretty high damage and fairly tanky combo- missing out on evasion stings but the damages man, the damages.
With the new changes coming to armor (prr/mrr) using medium armor on such a build would be possible and viable- specifically with Elf- and you'd get some pretty neat defenses-:


Doesn't Swashbuckling need to be using light or no armor to work?

CThruTheEgo
06-18-2014, 02:47 PM
Swords Dance in Heroics is great, but it's pretty meh at endgame.
I'd consider using Song of Heroism/Sprint Boost- both are just super useful. 10% healing amplification is pretty great too- but I'd only switch to that if you find you have a hard time surviving.

Yeah I think I'll start with some of the warchanter stuff for the convenience of it, and if I find I need better survivability, then I'll go for more heal amp.

Jhaeran
06-18-2014, 03:50 PM
I like passives - I'd only spend 2 on sword dance for 1d10, so 9 in SB then the other 6 in warchanter - trying to get sprint 1.

With that said, I think people that are actually playing SB's would be a more valuable resource. Still loving the breakdown, just waiting a bit to TR or LR into it.

Maelodic
06-18-2014, 04:07 PM
Doesn't Swashbuckling need to be using light or no armor to work?

You are right- didn't catch that.

CThruTheEgo
06-18-2014, 07:57 PM
For enhancements, I opted to get the first charisma from both warchanter and spellsinger, as well as from human and all six from divine crusader. This essentially maxes charisma at 64 and gives the build a 56 DC Otto's, 65 DC soundburst (which I decided to twist in over reign), and 93 perform. This also allowed me to get some fun stuff from warchanter (rough and ready, song of heroism, and sprint boost). Overall, I think this setup strikes a good balance. Thanks to everyone who offered their perspective.

Nayus
06-20-2014, 10:21 AM
Hi, something I noticed playing this character, you might be exceeding your maximum Dodge cap, the build list Shadow Dragonhide but that armor is only available from 26 to 28 which means it's out of reach in 60% of your Epic progression, all other Light Armors will have a MDB 6 or 7 points lower, only enough to hit 25% cap.

Swashbuckler enhancements only increase your Armor MDB so if we switch to Robes the cap stays at 25%.
It's probably best to give up the buckler, you're currently wasting 7% of your Dodge from 20 to 25.


But this would also make the build slightly less optimized at cap but you could reset your enhancements to get Skirmisher every EPL.. you're only giving up 5% doublestrike and 5 PRR, 5 PRR is meaningless and I don't think 5% Doublestrike at cap is worth reducing your overall potential all the way to 26.

This frees up 2 feats :D

gwonbush
06-20-2014, 11:00 AM
There are other light armors that reach 32% dodge with ship buffs (Fencing Master gives both Max Dodge AND Max Dex bonus, so it helps anybody who can fit in extra dodge): Epic Duelists Leathers, Epic Rakshasa hide, any Celestial Leather armor, Black/White/Blue Flawless Dragonscale. So if you have either the Epic Duelist's Leather or the Epic Rakshasa Hide, you can get max dodge at level 20, otherwise you have to wait until 22 when lootgen catches up.

Something else to mention is that the buckler isn't only for the dodge bonus. The Guardbreaking effect on the Epic Swashbuckler and the Kobold Admiral's Tiller is amazingly powerful against a single mob, making them barely fight back if they aren't a red named. Not to mention, with Legendary Shield Mastery twisted in and those two feats, that Buckler is giving 15% doublestrike and 20 PRR, which is quite noticeable.

CThruTheEgo
06-20-2014, 12:08 PM
Hi, something I noticed playing this character, you might be exceeding your maximum Dodge cap, the build list Shadow Dragonhide but that armor is only available from 26 to 28 which means it's out of reach in 60% of your Epic progression, all other Light Armors will have a MDB 6 or 7 points lower, only enough to hit 25% cap.

Swashbuckler enhancements only increase your Armor MDB so if we switch to Robes the cap stays at 25%.
It's probably best to give up the buckler, you're currently wasting 7% of your Dodge from 20 to 25.


But this would also make the build slightly less optimized at cap but you could reset your enhancements to get Skirmisher every EPL.. you're only giving up 5% doublestrike and 5 PRR, 5 PRR is meaningless and I don't think 5% Doublestrike at cap is worth reducing your overall potential all the way to 26.

This frees up 2 feats :D

Flawless black dragonhide armor is available at level 25 and has the same MDB as the shadowscale light armor. But you are right, options are limited. Each core of swashbuckler raises MDB by 1 for a total of 6 with all the cores, second skin raises it by 6, and a new ship buff raises it by 2 or you can slot the blue augment that raises it by 2. So on either the blackscale or shadowscale, MDB is 19 base + 6 cores + 6 second skin + 2 ship buff or augment for a total of 33.

Dodge cap on a pure swashbuckler is 32 with the new ship buffs. 25 base + 5 from roll with the punches core five + 2 from a new ship buff (don't remember what it's called but it's the same one that raises the MDB).

Due to the xp progression, you will also spend more time in the later epic levels than the earlier ones, so I'd say you'll use these armors for well over 40% of your time in epics.

To get the most out of the dodge bonuses, I think it's worth it to use robes until blackscale at level 25, and that's probably what I'll do. The extra dodge is worth more than the PRR (12-14 depending on level and with full BAB from divine crusader) from light armor imo.

A swashbuckler with nothing in the offhand gets 10% doublestrike. A swashbuckler with both shield mastery feats and legendary shield mastery twisted gets 15% doublestrike, 20 PRR, and 10% dodge. So if your goal is to max both offense and defense, then buckler is the way to go.

I'm also not building for epic TRing. I build for cap. If your goal is to ETR, then your suggestions might suit you better, especially if you find you need the feats for something else.

EDIT: gwonbush listed some decent light armor options to reach 32 dodge that I'd forgotten about, so wearing armor is still very much an option.

Nayus
06-20-2014, 02:17 PM
Sorry, it seems I was looking at the Scale Armors, Light Armors are "Hide".
Epic Fail of my part xD

Nordenfeldt
06-23-2014, 11:56 AM
+3 CHA. Drow can start at base 20.

I would love to see a Drow version of this build, perhaps with a few points left over for Drow racial enhancements?

Would someone be willing?

Also, a general question. SB allows you to use charisma for damage eventually, but what about to-hit?

CThruTheEgo
06-23-2014, 01:38 PM
I would love to see a Drow version of this build, perhaps with a few points left over for Drow racial enhancements?

Would someone be willing?

You could easily drop all or most of the warchanter enhancements. Along with the 6 from human, that gives you up to 20 AP to spend in drow. You could get another 2 DCs easily. You'd lose one feat though, which would probably be force of personality. This might be made up for by drow's inherent spell resistance, but I honestly don't know if it would be high enough to be effective at endgame, although I highly doubt it.

Human gets better burst dps and will save, drow gets 2 more DCs.


Also, a general question. SB allows you to use charisma for damage eventually, but what about to-hit?

Str is used for to-hit. With the changes to to-hit, it's difficult to create a build that has trouble hitting. As long as your to-hit stat (str, dex, etc.) is in the 30s, you shouldn't have any trouble hitting even in higher end EEs. Bards also get bonuses to to-hit from songs and this build has precision, so it won't be a problem at all.

CThruTheEgo
06-23-2014, 03:09 PM
This might be made up for by drow's inherent spell resistance, but I honestly don't know if it would be high enough to be effective at endgame, although I highly doubt it.

Drow get up to 44 SR with enhancements. If this stacks with items, ED abilities, or other enhancements, then it might be able to reach useful numbers. If not, then it won't make up for the lack of force of personality.

Maelodic
06-23-2014, 11:32 PM
Drow get up to 44 SR with enhancements. If this stacks with items, ED abilities, or other enhancements, then it might be able to reach useful numbers. If not, then it won't make up for the lack of force of personality.

I can confirm this doesn't stack with anything. It's useful in heroics but not great for epics.

CThruTheEgo
06-24-2014, 06:15 AM
I can confirm this doesn't stack with anything. It's useful in heroics but not great for epics.

Thanks for the confirmation. So a drow would lose an effective defense against will save spells (along with a few other minor things), but gain 2 DCs. Some might consider that worth it but I'll be sticking with human.

Nordenfeldt
06-24-2014, 07:59 AM
Thanks for the confirmation. So a drow would lose an effective defense against will save spells (along with a few other minor things), but gain 2 DCs. Some might consider that worth it but I'll be sticking with human.

You are assuming they lose force of personality. Personally I would keep that feat (and with drow that means your will save is even higher due to higher Cha), and lose quicken spell, a feat I have always found to be in the 'sortof nice' range for any caster.

So drow gets higher saves, higer DC, more damage (if using rapier or short sword) and decent heroic SR.

CThruTheEgo
06-24-2014, 08:14 AM
You are assuming they lose force of personality. Personally I would keep that feat (and with drow that means your will save is even higher due to higher Cha), and lose quicken spell, a feat I have always found to be in the 'sortof nice' range for any caster.

Quicken is the feat for self healing imo. Needing a heal immediately and having it fail can be the difference between life and death. Quicken will do much more for survivability than force of personality.


So drow gets higher saves, higer DC, more damage (if using rapier or short sword) and decent heroic SR.

Human will actually do more damage. Human will have better burst dps with human damage boost coupled with swashbuckler's doubelstrike boost. Drow need to drop most of the warchanter tree to invest more in the racial tree. That means losing enchant weapons and iced edges (which will be easy enough to maintain on a build that crits as often as this one does) for a total of 4.5 damage. Drow racial weapons only offer 4 damage. If an arti is buffing you with deadly weapons then you won't get the advantage of enchant weapons and drow pulls ahead, but I don't count on having buffs that I can't provide myself. Not to mention there are changes planned for both warchanter and spellsinger, so I'd be reluctant to count on investing in the racial tree since soon (tm) it might be advantageous to invest more heavily in the class trees.

The only real advantage that drow has is 2 more DCs, which may or may not be needed, I'm still not back to epic levels to know this for sure.

N-0cturn
06-24-2014, 01:06 PM
Probably Human will still be the better choice but I think there are some good reasons for drow:

1. The damage you get from the enhancements is multiplied by critical hits, so it will be more that the damage from iced edges. If you have enough AP for the racial enhancements that is. And human damage boost will still pull out ahead for burst dps.

2. Drow get Shuriken Expertise for free, which will give you quite a decent ranged option. Pirate Ninjas!

3. Since you have Slippery Mind I think you can get a way with a bit lower will save. Bard past lives will help as well. Also IF the SR was working then it would help against some other saves as well. I think there is a SR check for soundburst for example (which is weird because it does damage).

Overall I think Drow is a decent choice.

CThruTheEgo
06-24-2014, 01:57 PM
Probably Human will still be the better choice but I think there are some good reasons for drow:

1. The damage you get from the enhancements is multiplied by critical hits, so it will be more that the damage from iced edges. If you have enough AP for the racial enhancements that is. And human damage boost will still pull out ahead for burst dps.

2. Drow get Shuriken Expertise for free, which will give you quite a decent ranged option. Pirate Ninjas!

3. Since you have Slippery Mind I think you can get a way with a bit lower will save. Bard past lives will help as well. Also IF the SR was working then it would help against some other saves as well. I think there is a SR check for soundburst for example (which is weird because it does damage).

Overall I think Drow is a decent choice.

All good points, although losing force of personality results in a drop of 23 will save, leaving it at 41 which won't cut it in EE. Slippery mind doesn't affect the save in any way, it just gives you a chance to roll twice. Which means if you're going to fail regardless, then you just fail twice. That's why I never bothered taking it on my rogues. If you don't get your will save to high enough levels anyway, then it doesn't matter if you get a second chance.

And I certainly think drow is a decent option. Human just fits my priorities better.

Detton
06-27-2014, 08:00 AM
Hello!

Great build; i'm having a lot of fun with a first-lifer that has no tomes (I managed to snag a +2 charisma tome though, at least, from the AH.)

I was wondering: With the Crystal Cove now up and running, is there anything else you would recommend getting besides the Swashbuckler? Any mods on the hat you would lean towards as being particular worth getting? The short sword seems more rogue-focused.

I'm trying to plan out my equipment as I go and making sure I get all the big things covered; i'm not really planning for the end-game - yet.

CThruTheEgo
06-27-2014, 08:34 AM
Hello!

Great build; i'm having a lot of fun with a first-lifer that has no tomes (I managed to snag a +2 charisma tome though, at least, from the AH.)

I was wondering: With the Crystal Cove now up and running, is there anything else you would recommend getting besides the Swashbuckler? Any mods on the hat you would lean towards as being particular worth getting? The short sword seems more rogue-focused.

I'm trying to plan out my equipment as I go and making sure I get all the big things covered; i'm not really planning for the end-game - yet.

Thanks. I'm glad you're enjoying the build.

For me personally, I'm getting a tier 1 level 8 swashbuckler, a tier 3 level 12 swashbuckler, and a tier 3 level 16 swashbuckler. I have other gear covered already so that's all I really need.

The level 12+ shortsword is actually pretty good because of its inherent expanded crit range. It is naturally 18-20x2. You'll have imp crit by the time you can use it so along with swashbuckling stance the shortsword has a 13-20x3 crit profile. That's pretty nice and I might craft one myself, but I hate to give up my greensteel for it. On a first life though, I don't know of anything better than this. Keep in mind you'll get doublestrike from the shield already, so I'd probably only take the shortsword to tier 2 for level 12 and 16 versions, but take the level 20 version to tier 3 for the red slot if you get it (the Star of Day from Eveningstar com turn-ins is another good option at 20).

The leather armor is an OK choice. It's far more important to keep your dodge maxed rather than get a little bit of PRR, so it might be better to stick with robes. You'll have to see what your dodge will be at various levels and compare it to the dodge cap on the armor to see if it is worth it or not. I'm only level 9 and have 24% dodge so I'm sticking with robes.

The bold trinket is a nice option. The exceptional seeker goes well with the crit profile you'll have and the shocking blow procs often due to a faster attack speed.

For the hats, I would only get what isn't available elsewhere, which probably just means superior false life or heavy fort. I don't know how easy 100% fort is to find at those levels with random loot, but that might not be necessary. I'm pretty sure you can't find superior false life at level 9 though. Ability stats and seeker are easily found on random loot. Spell points aren't really needed. And with the way I play, at least, I wouldn't get any use out of sneak attack.

Hope that helps.

Caprice
06-27-2014, 08:41 AM
I was wondering: With the Crystal Cove now up and running, is there anything else you would recommend getting besides the Swashbuckler? Any mods on the hat you would lean towards as being particular worth getting? The short sword seems more rogue-focused.
I would suggest taking a good look at the Duelist's Leathers (http://ddowiki.com/page/Duelist%27s_Leathers) armor too. Starting at level 8 those have quite high MDB so you can push your Dodge% higher than usual, and has a decent amount of Dodge% included between the Dodge effect and the Mobility Feat effect.

The shortsword is a bit more Rogue-ish because of the skill bonuses but it has some merits. Starting at level 12 it has an expanded crit range (15% rather than 10%); with SB and IC:P the crit profile becomes 13-20 x3. I would not recommend it but it isn't the worst option available.

CThruTheEgo
06-27-2014, 09:13 AM
I would suggest taking a good look at the Duelist's Leathers (http://ddowiki.com/page/Duelist%27s_Leathers) armor too. Starting at level 8 those have quite high MDB so you can push your Dodge% higher than usual, and has a decent amount of Dodge% included between the Dodge effect and the Mobility Feat effect.

The level 12 version has base MDB of 12. With 4 swashbuckler cores and the ship buff that raises MDB by 2, it becomes 18. The level 16 version has base MDB of 15. With 4 swashbuckler cores and the ship buff that raises MDB by 2, it becomes 21. At level 9 I've already got 24% dodge. Personally, I'd rather have another 3-6 dodge than a few points of PRR. Dodge is easily found on random loot now. If you're going with nothing in the offhand, then I'd say the armor is worth it. But if you've got the 10% dodge from skirmisher, then I'd lean towards robes. Not to mention the Duelist's Leathers look like S&M gear. :D


The shortsword is a bit more Rogue-ish because of the skill bonuses but it has some merits. Starting at level 12 it has an expanded crit range (15% rather than 10%); with SB and IC:P the crit profile becomes 13-20 x3. I would not recommend it but it isn't the worst option available.

That will do some solid dps with a crit profile like that. Although I will say exploit weakness reduces the value of a weapon's inherent crit range to some degree. I guess compared to other swashbuckler weapons, it's really only 10% more crits. What else would you recommend for a first lifer that competes with the cutthroat's smallblade? I've already got greentsteel on this guy so I haven't considered heroic named weapons too much.

unbongwah
06-27-2014, 09:30 AM
Any Finesseable weapon with a higher-than-normal crit range and/or multiplier is worth considering, IMHO; although as you say, Exploit Weakness makes the crit range a little less important, but you can't take it until lvl 12. Some possibilities: Sickle of Sypheros (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sickle_of_Sypheros), Widowblight (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Widowblight), and Tharkuul's Bane (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Tharkuul%27s_Bane) (Swashbuckling makes them 17-20 x3); Threnal dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Threnalian_War_Dagger); the dagger & dart from RoaSP (http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:A_Relic_of_a_Sovereign_Past_reward_items) ; any of the light weapons from Co6 (http://ddowiki.com/page/Cult_of_the_Six) (particularly Sheridan's Wrack & Ruin); GotL (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Guardian_of_the_Liturgy); Razorend (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Razorend) (w/SB 13-20 x3 crits + Hemorrhaging, plus it lets you delay IC:Pierce).

EDIT: there don't appear to be any named light picks, so I guess you're stuck with crafted or lootgen ones if you go that route. Too bad there's no mini-Deathnip! :(

CThruTheEgo
06-27-2014, 09:48 AM
Any Finesseable weapon with a higher-than-normal crit range and/or multiplier is worth considering, IMHO; although as you say, Exploit Weakness makes the crit range a little less important, but you can't take it until lvl 12. Some possibilities: Sickle of Sypheros (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sickle_of_Sypheros), Widowblight (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Widowblight), and Tharkuul's Bane (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Tharkuul%27s_Bane) (Swashbuckling makes them 17-20 x3); Threnal dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Threnalian_War_Dagger); the dagger & dart from RoaSP (http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:A_Relic_of_a_Sovereign_Past_reward_items) ; any of the light weapons from Co6 (http://ddowiki.com/page/Cult_of_the_Six) (particularly Sheridan's Wrack & Ruin); GotL (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Guardian_of_the_Liturgy); Razorend (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Razorend) (w/SB 13-20 x3 crits + Hemorrhaging, plus it lets you delay IC:Pierce).

EDIT: there don't appear to be any named light picks, so I guess you're stuck with crafted or lootgen ones if you go that route. Too bad there's no mini-Deathnip! :(

Thanks for the list unbongwah. I was referring specifically to the cutthroat's smallblade when I made my comment about exploit weakness since its expanded crit range doesn't appear until level 12 version. It's true for all weapons after level 12 but I totally agree that before that anything with an expanded crit profile is ideal. I was lucky enough to get a Tiefling Assassin's Blade cheap on the auction house after farming for it didn't work. 15-20x3 crit profile at level 4 is awesome. I'm planning on using that until I get my greensteel triple positive rapier.

Caprice
06-27-2014, 09:49 AM
I agree on the robes. I had not considered that. However sometimes I am stubborn and like to play in something other than robes because I think it is bad game design that almost every class does better in robes than armor right now.

I'm not saying that the short sword is terrible - it isn't - but I think that there are a lot better alternatives. The big thing is that Exploit Weakness and Swashbuckling (and to a lesser degree Blow By Blow and En Pointe) really skew heavily towards effects that happen on critical hit because you get a lot of them, but nothing on the Cove short sword scales with crits. I suspect that any random weapon with some combination of burst effects and one of the three big on crit effects (e.g. Heartseeker (http://ddowiki.com/page/Heartseeker), Ribcracker (http://ddowiki.com/page/Ribcracker), and Bloodletter (http://ddowiki.com/page/Bloodletter)) will outdo the cove short sword over time, but I have not tried to run numbers to verify that.

My top suggestion would be a Guardian of the Liturgy (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Guardian_of_the_Liturgy) dagger. It is a [1d10] dagger w/ 15% x2 critical profile (which becomes 40% x3 w/SB & IC:P), Bleed, Heartseeker 4, and a Red augment slot. It drops in a P2P quest (Desecrated Temple of Vol, Necropolis 4) but it is BtCoE and you can find them in the AH sometimes. The prices can be ridiculous at times, but I have found affordable ones too and even ones that were discarded on pawn brokers.

Some other options that are quite nice are:
Skullsmasher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Skullsmasher) from The Crucible (Light Mace, BtCoE, ML12-14, [1.75-2](1d6) 5% x3 -> 30% x4 w/SB & IC:B, Ribcracker 3-4 [another massive on crit damage effect], Red augment)
(Removed: Axe of the Unseen Blow)
Turbulent Epee (http://ddowiki.com/page/Turbulent_Epee) from Missing (BtA, Rapier, ML14, standard dmg & crit, random Energy Burst, Metalline, Aligned)
Envenomed Blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Envenomed_Blade) from Lords of Dust (F2P) (ML16, BtA but F2P, short sword, standard dmg & crit, Poison Burst, Paralyzing)

Update: It was later discovered that the Axe of the Unseen Blow (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Axe_of_the_Unseen_Blow) from Litany of the Dead does not work with Swashbuckling. Everyone has my apologies for passing on incorrect information about it.

gwonbush
06-27-2014, 09:50 AM
Personally, I'd say that the Duelists Leathers are worth it by Level 16, getting a base max dodge of 17 (the 15 listed plus another 2 for built-in mobility feat), which raises to 27 with 4 Swashbuckler cores and rank 3 Second Skin, 29% with ship buffs. Epic Duelist Leathers is definitely worth it, since it has a higher max dex than any item in the game.

CThruTheEgo
06-27-2014, 10:02 AM
I'm not saying that the short sword is terrible - it isn't - but I think that there are a lot better alternatives. The big thing is that Exploit Weakness and Swashbuckling (and to a lesser degree Blow By Blow and En Pointe) really skew heavily towards effects that happen on critical hit because you get a lot of them, but nothing on the Cove short sword scales with crits. I suspect that any random weapon with some combination of burst effects and one of the three big on crit effects (e.g. Heartseeker (http://ddowiki.com/page/Heartseeker), Ribcracker (http://ddowiki.com/page/Ribcracker), and Bloodletter (http://ddowiki.com/page/Bloodletter)) will outdo the cove short sword over time, but I have not tried to run numbers to verify that.

That's a good point. Those effects do add some significant damge so you're probably right. And thanks for the named weapon suggestions.


Personally, I'd say that the Duelists Leathers are worth it by Level 16, getting a base max dodge of 17 (the 15 listed plus another 2 for built-in mobility feat), which raises to 27 with 4 Swashbuckler cores and rank 3 Second Skin, 29% with ship buffs. Epic Duelist Leathers is definitely worth it, since it has a higher max dex than any item in the game.

I forgot that second skin is available by then, so you're right, the duelist's leathers are well worth it. That means I need at least a level 12 version. I've got dragontouched heal amp/heal amp/devotion84 that I'll be using at 16, so I don't think I'll bother with that version. That also means I need to buy a cosmetic armor kit while they're on sale since I don't want to look like the gimp from Pulp Fiction. :D

Detton
06-27-2014, 10:10 AM
Awesome responses everyone - Thank you very much! That's a lot to work on for me; I do not have a whole lot of time to grind with. After the swashbuckler, would you consider leathers probably the second best priority, and then the shortsword? Or just look for a good lootgen weapon with an on-crit proc?

CThruTheEgo
06-27-2014, 10:16 AM
Awesome responses everyone - Thank you very much! That's a lot to work on for me; I do not have a whole lot of time to grind with. After the swashbuckler, would you consider leathers probably the second best priority, and then the shortsword? Or just look for a good lootgen weapon with an on-crit proc?

You can probably find a decent lootgen weapon easily enough, but you aren't going to find any armor that compares. So I'd make the armor second priority personally. And I'd agree with Caprice, the shortsword probably isn't worth it. Try to find a lootgen weapon with heartseeker, ribcracker, or bloodletter (depending on the weapon type you want to use) or one of the other named options suggested.

Caprice
06-27-2014, 10:36 AM
I would also highly recommend making a basic Lesser Cunning Trinket (http://ddowiki.com/page/Lesser_Cunning_Trinket). Don't bother upgrading it, just make the first tier which is pretty cheap (500 copper coins, 250 silver coins, & 100 dragonshards). That trinket gives +50 SP that stacks with almost everything in the game. You can swap it in just before using a shrine or leaving a quest, and you will have an extra 50 SP available to cast for buffs, then you swap in your "real" trinket as soon as you are done buffing. When you swap it out your maximum SP drops by 50 but if you have cast at least 50 SP worth of spells then your current SP amount does not drop at all. Bards are on a lower SP scale than most caster classes so every little bit extra you can wring out is well worth having.

Edit: The upgraded versions have +1 DC to Enchantment is also okay, but if your Cove time is limited then I feel that the baseline +50 SP is the best part. You can get higher bonuses to Enchantment from other gear, but not the SP.

Fuitentooty
06-27-2014, 10:55 AM
I can confirm this doesn't stack with anything. It's useful in heroics but not great for epics.

Drow SR stacks with Serenity. You can get 53 SR at cap. Effective at low-mid level EEs.

Detton
06-27-2014, 12:39 PM
Okay, it's my lunch break now, so I can follow up properly. :) Given I have a VERY limited amount of playtime (needy toddler, etc. Only get any time on the weekends really) I think here are my plans:

I am going to get L12: Shield, short sword
L16: Shield, leather,
L20: Shield, leather.

By level 16+, I should be able to find a weapon with an on-crit proc that does more damage over all. Also, based on this thread, the leathers start to even up with robes in terms of dodge, so I will add those.

I have a kobold admiral's tiller in my shared bank - it has Guardbreaking, which is great; how does that compare to the epic swashbuckler?

I'm very much a casual, and even if I decide not to reincarnate, I doubt i'll be hitting a lot of major raids (or even many epic elites).

gwonbush
06-27-2014, 12:45 PM
The choice between the Epic Swashbuckler and the Kobold Tiller is more based on your other gear. If you don't have a dodge item (Note that Epic Duelists leathers give 8% dodge as well as mobility at T3), the Tiller is probably better. If you do have a dodge item, the Swashbuckler is definitely better.

Something else to note about the Tiller: it may seem to be behind on Blue Slots compared to the Epic Swashbuckler, but it actually has a hidden Green Slot. You won't find it by looking at the tool tip, but you can put augments in the slot.

Detton
06-27-2014, 01:11 PM
Something else to note about the Tiller: it may seem to be behind on Blue Slots compared to the Epic Swashbuckler, but it actually has a hidden Green Slot. You won't find it by looking at the tool tip, but you can put augments in the slot.

Now that IS interesting... I knew it had a colorless, but... Good to know!

CThruTheEgo
06-27-2014, 01:36 PM
I have a kobold admiral's tiller in my shared bank - it has Guardbreaking, which is great; how does that compare to the epic swashbuckler?

I'd agree with gwonbush's assessment and add that the doublestrike from celestial fervor does not stack with items. So if you're running in divine crusader, the Epic Swashbuckler loses some appeal.

If using Balizarde, I'd go with the Epic Swashbuckler. If using any other weapon (and assuming dodge isn't slotted elsewhere), I'd go with the Kobold Admiral's Tiller.


Something else to note about the Tiller: it may seem to be behind on Blue Slots compared to the Epic Swashbuckler, but it actually has a hidden Green Slot. You won't find it by looking at the tool tip, but you can put augments in the slot.

Well that's interesting. I wonder if the fix to this will be that the green slot shows up, or is removed entirely. I'd sure hate to have something slotted if and when they decided to remove it.

To be honest though, I don't have a need for another slot with the current gear setup. I don't even have anything planned for the Swashbuckler's blue slot.

CThruTheEgo
06-27-2014, 08:26 PM
Currently level 9 with the build. I've been leveling very slowly due to real life.

I realized I wasn't currently getting any use out of spell focus enchantment and swapped it out for extend. I'll swap spell focus back in sometime after I get Otto's sphere and when it becomes useful to actually bother with CC.

Nayus
06-27-2014, 11:15 PM
Currently Level 18 with the build, my thoughts:

Drop Warchanter. And don't look back... Song of Heroism isn't worth 11 AP. You could just ask if someone wants GH, also Good Hope doesn't stack with Inspire Courage and GH, a trick I learned it is to use Hope/Courage (order doesn't matter) then you can GH whoever still has the buff later. (Because you shouldn't really bother with single target buffs at the entrance, you can do those while running)

Dance... of ... the ... sword --- O..O Do it. It's totally worth the AP, I can elaborate if you ask.

You absolutely must have Human Tier 3 Improved Recovery, I would like to hear your words why you're not taking it. I'm currently taking DEX and Saves Boost as additional cores, then Action Boost Surge CHA and DEX up to Tier 2, that's +1 DC, +3 Damage and +1 Saves while a boost is on. + Saves boost for an addition +4
There's no such thing as "If you're having survivability problems" when you hit Epic Elites. I'm currently Level 18 and my 100-point Cure Criticals already don't cut it in extreme fights, I'm not a defendant of Empower Heal though.

Music of the Dead is meeeeh, but it's especially meeeh for you. You just said you swapped SF:Enchant because you weren't finding much use in it so you're not really a CC person. I would just kill the undead, there isn't any encounter where fascinating undead will prevent a party wipe, unless your group already was wiping even at the fleshie mobs!

I would refrain on your choice to drop/delay SF:Enchant but I'm a CC person, I've been LOVING this character precisely because of the DC.

I already knew Otto's Sphere of Dancing casting time was bad but it's even worse than I thought!! Still, I'm taking Shield Mastery at 18 and Quicken at 21.

At the lower levels: Charm Person!!
I would drop Shadow Walk for Mass Suggestion, that spell is just incredible, way too powerful, if you had any argument for keeping Music of the Dead on then memorize Mass Suggestion as well (Mass Charm Person only works in humanoids). Shadow Walk is useless either way.
Hero's Feast is completely useless, you can just cast GH

A Crystal Cove Hat +15 Perform of Superior False Life for Heroics =D To be honest I'll keep that thing in Epics for a few levels but that's because I'm undergeared xD

When I hit Epics I don't think I'll play in Crusader, their biggest selling point is Crusade but we have some healing of our own, well, that's a playstyle choice that won't impact the build so I'll just test different destinies and find out.


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But most importantly: You're vastly understimating the power of Heal Scrolls.

100 Base
1.1 Guild
1.1^3 Human
1.1 * 1.2 * 1.3 GS as offhand weapon when casting scrolls
= 251.23
That's not too shabby but then:
251.23 * 1.75 Wand and Scroll Mastery = 439.66

That's 400 points. I would REALLY advise you to carry 100 stacks of Heal Scrolls and max out the Wand line, they're just too powerful. 440 points is way too much, it's half your life bar.
To be honest, right now, it's over my entire life bar (Lv18)


You'll need to max out Concentration though but you're still level 9 so you have time.

Nayus
06-27-2014, 11:25 PM
Oops I mentioned a Triple Pos GS but you can make it to Tier 2 in 1 day without raid timers by farming Shroud 1-3 and recalling before it's complete, you're already using +30% Gloves so it adds up perfectly for maximum healing.

This should take hmm.. maybe 2 hours?

CThruTheEgo
06-28-2014, 09:52 AM
Thanks for the feedback Nayus. I think most of your feedback is based on heroic levels and there will be a big difference between heroics and endgame epic elites. The build as posted is intended to be its final incarnation at cap. I generally make comments about changing feats around since they are difficult/expensive to swap. Some are not worth having until much later and you can get more use out of others while leveling that you won't keep at cap (e.g. extend instead of spell focus enchant). But I don't make comments about enhancements because in heroics I change enhancements all the time based on my current needs. It is cheap and easy to do so and your needs change often while leveling through heroics. I expect that most others also do the same.


Currently Level 18 with the build, my thoughts:

Drop Warchanter. And don't look back... Song of Heroism isn't worth 11 AP. You could just ask if someone wants GH, also Good Hope doesn't stack with Inspire Courage and GH, a trick I learned it is to use Hope/Courage (order doesn't matter) then you can GH whoever still has the buff later. (Because you shouldn't really bother with single target buffs at the entrance, you can do those while running)

There are a few perks in warchanter that are not essential, but nice to have. The main enhancement worth going for is charisma, which evens me out and provides another 1 DC as well as 1 damage, 1 perform, etc. The perks are sprint boost (which is addicting), rough and ready for another 6 PRR (not stellar, but more is always good), enchant weapons (good when you don't have an arti around, and they don't seem to be very popular anymore), and song of heroism (nice to have a group GH that can't be dispelled).

It is an option to drop some/all of warchanter and spend some more in spellsinger to unlock tier 4 charisma. Those are minor adjustments that I will figure out later when I get there.


Dance... of ... the ... sword --- O..O Do it. It's totally worth the AP, I can elaborate if you ask.

Yes, please elaborate. As I said, I don't make suggestions for heroic enhancements. I currently have this enhancement and I think it is great in heroics. But in epics, it just won't do much good. The description is incorrect, it is not per bard level. So 1d20 multiplied by 200 sonic spell power is only going to be an average of 30 damage per miss. That's great for heroics but absolutely worthless in epics.


You absolutely must have Human Tier 3 Improved Recovery, I would like to hear your words why you're not taking it. I'm currently taking DEX and Saves Boost as additional cores, then Action Boost Surge CHA and DEX up to Tier 2, that's +1 DC, +3 Damage and +1 Saves while a boost is on. + Saves boost for an addition +4
There's no such thing as "If you're having survivability problems" when you hit Epic Elites. I'm currently Level 18 and my 100-point Cure Criticals already don't cut it in extreme fights, I'm not a defendant of Empower Heal though.

You mentioned that you don't intend to run in divine crusader. I intend for my primary healing to be from sacred ground and use spells/scrolls as supplements. Without that, yes, you will need to find better sources of healing because your spells won't cut it. Sacred ground provides incredible healing. The extra heal amp simply isn't necessary. If you're relying more on spells/scrolls/cocoon, then you might want to consider more heal amp.

Plus, I simply don't see much worth taking in the human tree to get all the heal amp. Action surge would be good on a build that specialized in action boosts (i.e. fighter splash with extra action boost enhancement and legendary dreadnought's extra action boosts). It would be worth spending the points on such a build since it would get a lot more use out of action surge. I've got 5 charges of human damage boost and swashbuckler doublestrike boost. Those are intended to be used together for maximum burst melee dps. If I get charisma as the action surge, then it does add to my melee dps, but having iced edges adds more dps, more consistently. So I just don't see the point. Saves boost is definitely not worth it imo.

So my reason for not getting all the human heal amp is, it's just not needed or worth the investment with the current build.


Music of the Dead is meeeeh, but it's especially meeeh for you. You just said you swapped SF:Enchant because you weren't finding much use in it so you're not really a CC person. I would just kill the undead, there isn't any encounter where fascinating undead will prevent a party wipe, unless your group already was wiping even at the fleshie mobs!

I would refrain on your choice to drop/delay SF:Enchant but I'm a CC person, I've been LOVING this character precisely because of the DC.

...snip...

At the lower levels: Charm Person!!

I'm only level 9. I'm still 1-2 shotting mobs. There is absolutely no point in using CC when I can just steamroll through mobs. That's why I swapped spell focus enchant for extend. Longer haste/displacement serves me much better for my current purposes. As I said previously though, I don't intend to keep extend. I will swap it out for spell focus enchantment when I find CC having more advantages.

Regarding music of the dead, again I think your suggestion is geared toward heroic content, not epic. The current endgame has plenty of undead, and being able to CC them will be a valuable ability. I will say I haven't spent a single point in spellsinger yet though, and probably won't for at least several more levels. Again, enhancements can be changed easily and often.


I would drop Shadow Walk for Mass Suggestion, that spell is just incredible, way too powerful, if you had any argument for keeping Music of the Dead on then memorize Mass Suggestion as well (Mass Charm Person only works in humanoids). Shadow Walk is useless either way.
Hero's Feast is completely useless, you can just cast GH

There's a lot of useless/semi-useless bard spells. I may change these out when I get to those levels and see what I prefer having. Thanks for the suggestions.


But most importantly: You're vastly understimating the power of Heal Scrolls.

100 Base
1.1 Guild
1.1^3 Human
1.1 * 1.2 * 1.3 GS as offhand weapon when casting scrolls
= 251.23
That's not too shabby but then:
251.23 * 1.75 Wand and Scroll Mastery = 439.66

That's 400 points. I would REALLY advise you to carry 100 stacks of Heal Scrolls and max out the Wand line, they're just too powerful. 440 points is way too much, it's half your life bar.
To be honest, right now, it's over my entire life bar (Lv18)


You'll need to max out Concentration though but you're still level 9 so you have time.

I never said anything about heal scrolls one way or the other. They are good supplemental healing, but I don't want or intend to rely on them exclusively. As I said, in divine crusader, healing is taken care of. Outside of it you will have to find other options, and heal scrolls are certainly one option.

Thanks for the feedback Nayus. I hope that answers your questions.

Nayus
06-28-2014, 12:34 PM
Thanks for the feedback Nayus. I think most of your feedback is based on heroic levels and there will be a big difference between heroics and endgame epic elites. The build as posted is intended to be its final incarnation at cap. I generally make comments about changing feats around since they are difficult/expensive to swap. Some are not worth having until much later and you can get more use out of others while leveling that you won't keep at cap (e.g. extend instead of spell focus enchant). But I don't make comments about enhancements because in heroics I change enhancements all the time based on my current needs. It is cheap and easy to do so and your needs change often while leveling through heroics. I expect that most others also do the same.
I don't think so, I'm someone who likes extreme challenges so I'm always trying the hardest quests underlevel/at-level and soloing some content, I use that as a way to develop my skills with a given character in order to perform with excellence in EEs, although it does mean I often die miserably and get 0 XP for trying. I feel I might have missed a point with Epic Cure Critical Wounds, I admit I don't know for how much a CCW will hit in a fully geared character without any metamagic but I still doubt it's over 440 non-crit.



There are a few perks in warchanter that are not essential, but nice to have. The main enhancement worth going for is charisma, which evens me out and provides another 1 DC as well as 1 damage, 1 perform, etc. The perks are sprint boost (which is addicting), rough and ready for another 6 PRR (not stellar, but more is always good), enchant weapons (good when you don't have an arti around, and they don't seem to be very popular anymore), and song of heroism (nice to have a group GH that can't be dispelled).

It is an option to drop some/all of warchanter and spend some more in spellsinger to unlock tier 4 charisma. Those are minor adjustments that I will figure out later when I get there.
With Human you can get +3 CHA Surge while a Boost is active and even out your stats with DEX and DEX Surge I. In heroics it does sound like a pain but in epics you should keep your Boosts always on if you plan on doing damage. 6 PRR will easily get surpassed by Healing Amp. If something I would re-spend my AP to get Sprint Boost for extra charges, that would cost 7 AP.
My argument about Healing Amp is that one day you will definitely lose HP so quickly that your 900 points will become 20 or 30, this will happen. We should define a difference between off-healing from Sacred Ground and Burst Healing for Extreme Fights.

Unfortunately the build only has 2 5-charge Action Boosts and that's a problem. 10 charges equal 3:20 minutes on 2 separate 2:30 packs for a maximum of 5 minutes which might not be enough for longer quests. 15 charges would equal 5 minutes on a pack of 2:30 min and another pack of 5 minutes for a total of 7:30 minutes which should be enough for anything.



Yes, please elaborate. As I said, I don't make suggestions for heroic enhancements. I currently have this enhancement and I think it is great in heroics. But in epics, it just won't do much good. The description is incorrect, it is not per bard level. So 1d20 multiplied by 200 sonic spell power is only going to be an average of 30 damage per miss. That's great for heroics but absolutely worthless in epics.I'm sorry it seems I confused the names, the enhancement is "Elegant Footwork":
When enemies miss you while Swashbuckling, they have a 20% chance to be knocked down with no save. Cooldown: 12 seconds
Assuming 50% displacement, 10% Incorporeality and 32% dodge monsters will hit 30.6% of the time (and keep trying after that). In a battle where a monster might hit you twice Elegant Footwork is 6.12% damage mitigation, if a monster could hit you three times it's 12,24% damage mitigation. 6.12% damage mitigation would equal around +20 PRR from your current 87 layout.
Of course one could say if the monster was standing-up he could still miss you due to displacement but that's pure statistics.

This is not game-breaking. After typing this post I might give-up Elegant Footwork for Sprint Boost to maximize my Action Surges and grab Rough and Ready along the way.
My biggest problem with Elegant Footwork is that the monster might die immediately after it triggers, it's not an enhancement for Epic Hard or easier quests.


You mentioned that you don't intend to run in divine crusader. I intend for my primary healing to be from sacred ground and use spells/scrolls as supplements. Without that, yes, you will need to find better sources of healing because your spells won't cut it. Sacred ground provides incredible healing. The extra heal amp simply isn't necessary. If you're relying more on spells/scrolls/cocoon, then you might want to consider more heal amp.
Cetus, the Bladeforged, has a Reconstruct SLA that hits for around 80% his HP, I like to watch his videos and when he was a human he could barely do a Tower (aka: he would die on his own) in EE WGU in a group, now he can do the whole quest by himself using 1~2 mana pots, he often drops below 20% HP, in some cases he gets so close to death that I wonder why he posted the video. It also represents my view of Epic Elite.

My problem with Divine Crusader is that it's the ED I play with my Barbarian. My Barbarian has no addition healing options other than Silver Flame Pots, he has no Evasion and walks around in a Full Plate, he can't use anything else to heal. But this is a Bard, you can cast Cure Spells, you can UMD Scrolls, I feel you're wasting all your healing power by relying on an ED ability.


I've got 5 charges of human damage boost and swashbuckler doublestrike boost. Those are intended to be used together for maximum burst melee dps.
Say there are 10 encounters, will you burn your charges and then do subpar DPS for the other 5? Spreading Action Boosts does the same amount of DPS in long quests. I also double-hit my Boosts but that's if I can think I can maintain it for the quest.



I'm only level 9. I'm still 1-2 shotting mobs. There is absolutely no point in using CC when I can just steamroll through mobs. That's why I swapped spell focus enchant for extend. Longer haste/displacement serves me much better for my current purposes. As I said previously though, I don't intend to keep extend. I will swap it out for spell focus enchantment when I find CC having more advantages.

Regarding music of the dead, again I think your suggestion is geared toward heroic content, not epic. The current endgame has plenty of undead, and being able to CC them will be a valuable ability. I will say I haven't spent a single point in spellsinger yet though, and probably won't for at least several more levels. Again, enhancements can be changed easily and often.Oh I see, my experience is that while you might 1~2 shot mobs you will die if there are several of them because mobs keep hitting you and you're only killing 1 at a time, Barbarians wouldn't die if killing mobs fast solved everything. There's a saying "if DPS is not solving a problem, then you're not applying enough", my understanding is that this also applies to monsters.




I apologize if I might have started sounding rude or hyperactive somewhere down this post and I certainly did, this is just my human nature and I will once again apologize for that, I'm grateful to you to posting this build and I'm doing my best to take the most out of it and the Bard class. If I am allowed to do one last rude comment I would say you're either overconfident in your healing ability or forgetting the fact 900 HP will become 9 HP in a matter of seconds.

Cetus
06-28-2014, 01:49 PM
Cetus, the Bladeforged, has a Reconstruct SLA that hits for around 80% his HP, I like to watch his videos and when he was a human he could barely do a Tower (aka: he would die on his own) in EE WGU in a group, now he can do the whole quest by himself using 1~2 mana pots, he often drops below 20% HP, in some cases he gets so close to death that I wonder why he posted the video. It also represents my view of Epic Elite.



Huh, the part in bold is just wrong information

I rocked WGU on my human, with a sample recorded here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksnVhN822rg

And a 53 min (non-speed run attempt by the way) solo completion posted here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425517-EE-What-goes-up-Flawless-Solo

And when I did that run, we didn't have various perks we do now - notably thunderforged.

Bladeforged is just icing, if it ever gets nerfed human is still a perfectly viable alternative.

Your part in red confuses me, first - close to death isn't death, that's hitpoints, prr, twitch skills and all the other defenses still working for me, otherwise - I wouldn't be close to death, and would just die, right? Second, a lot of the runs I post are speed runs - so near death encounters at that level of aggressive play aren't uncommon.

CThruTheEgo
06-28-2014, 03:47 PM
With Human you can get +3 CHA Surge while a Boost is active and even out your stats with DEX and DEX Surge I. In heroics it does sound like a pain but in epics you should keep your Boosts always on if you plan on doing damage.

You're implying that not having your boosts activated means you aren't doing solid damage, and that simply isn't true. Some builds are created to keep boosts up continuously, others are not. For this build, action boosts (damage boost and doublestrike boost) are burst damage primarily for bosses.


My argument about Healing Amp is that one day you will definitely lose HP so quickly that your 900 points will become 20 or 30, this will happen. We should define a difference between off-healing from Sacred Ground and Burst Healing for Extreme Fights.

Sacred ground will heal me for 175 hp every 3 seconds. That's pretty significant. Combined with the high damage avoidance of this build, as well as the supplemental healing from spells/scrolls, and it will be plenty to keep me up.


Unfortunately the build only has 2 5-charge Action Boosts and that's a problem.

It sounds like this is a problem for you because you have different priorities, and that's fine. Find what works for you and build it. I have no intention of micromanaging a bunch of action boosts, that just doesn't fit my playstyle.


I'm sorry it seems I confused the names, the enhancement is "Elegant Footwork":
When enemies miss you while Swashbuckling, they have a 20% chance to be knocked down with no save. Cooldown: 12 seconds
Assuming 50% displacement, 10% Incorporeality and 32% dodge monsters will hit 30.6% of the time (and keep trying after that). In a battle where a monster might hit you twice Elegant Footwork is 6.12% damage mitigation, if a monster could hit you three times it's 12,24% damage mitigation. 6.12% damage mitigation would equal around +20 PRR from your current 87 layout.
Of course one could say if the monster was standing-up he could still miss you due to displacement but that's pure statistics.

This is not game-breaking. After typing this post I might give-up Elegant Footwork for Sprint Boost to maximize my Action Surges and grab Rough and Ready along the way.
My biggest problem with Elegant Footwork is that the monster might die immediately after it triggers, it's not an enhancement for Epic Hard or easier quests.

Elegant footwork is very nice and I will probably try to find a way to fit it in. I have found that it also works on ranged mobs, which is interesting.


Cetus, the Bladeforged, has a Reconstruct SLA that hits for around 80% his HP, I like to watch his videos and when he was a human he could barely do a Tower (aka: he would die on his own) in EE WGU in a group, now he can do the whole quest by himself using 1~2 mana pots, he often drops below 20% HP, in some cases he gets so close to death that I wonder why he posted the video. It also represents my view of Epic Elite.

I'm not exactly sure how this is relevant.


My problem with Divine Crusader is that it's the ED I play with my Barbarian. My Barbarian has no addition healing options other than Silver Flame Pots, he has no Evasion and walks around in a Full Plate, he can't use anything else to heal. But this is a Bard, you can cast Cure Spells, you can UMD Scrolls, I feel you're wasting all your healing power by relying on an ED ability.

Divine crusader offers a lot more than just healing. It's a well rounded dps, healing, debuff ED.


Say there are 10 encounters, will you burn your charges and then do subpar DPS for the other 5? Spreading Action Boosts does the same amount of DPS in long quests. I also double-hit my Boosts but that's if I can think I can maintain it for the quest.

Again, my goal for this particular build is to use action boosts as burst dps, not continuous dps. So against those 10 encounters, I'll do some solid damage with my base dps.


Oh I see, my experience is that while you might 1~2 shot mobs you will die if there are several of them because mobs keep hitting you and you're only killing 1 at a time, Barbarians wouldn't die if killing mobs fast solved everything. There's a saying "if DPS is not solving a problem, then you're not applying enough", my understanding is that this also applies to monsters.

Let's keep this in context. I'm level 9 currently, which means we're talking about level 7 quests on elite. And yes, I zerg the hell out of every quest I run (thanks to sprint boost) and often gather up quite a few mobs before I stop and start swinging. Death is definitely not an issue, especially with displacement and 24% dodge. If you're dying from getting surrounded by mobs in that level range, I would suggest looking at ways to improve your survivability (e.g. maxing hp, fort, saves, dodge, displacement, etc.)


I apologize if I might have started sounding rude or hyperactive somewhere down this post and I certainly did, this is just my human nature and I will once again apologize for that, I'm grateful to you to posting this build and I'm doing my best to take the most out of it and the Bard class.

No apology necessary. We are all entitled to our own perspectives and opinions. The important thing is to figure out what fits your goals and build/play accordingly. I hope that you are able to adapt this build or create your own to suit your goals and playstyle.


If I am allowed to do one last rude comment I would say you're either overconfident in your healing ability or forgetting the fact 900 HP will become 9 HP in a matter of seconds.

Damage avoidance is a significant part of my confidence. Santa's Little Slayer, another one of my builds linked in my sig, has a similar damage avoidance (less than 4% more than this build) and survives just fine with cocoon and heal scrolls. When I ran in divine crusader on that build, I barely needed to use cocoon or scrolls. So my confidence is based on experience and I'm not worried about it at all.

Nayus
06-28-2014, 04:33 PM
Okay, good luck then =) I wish the best of everything to you

Your part in red confuses me, first - close to death isn't death, that's hitpoints, prr, twitch skills and all the other defenses still working for me, otherwise - I wouldn't be close to death, and would just die, right? Second, a lot of the runs I post are speed runs - so near death encounters at that level of aggressive play aren't uncommon.Exactly, if your defenses, player skill or gear weren't as good you would either have died or slowed down your run.

Worth noting that it took 3 tries, a lot of conservative play and resources to do that in 53 minutes as "the hardest thing you have done so far" while today you seemingly just smack everything in a speed run.

Cetus
06-28-2014, 05:21 PM
Okay, good luck then =) I wish the best of everything to you
Exactly, if your defenses, player skill or gear weren't as good you would either have died or slowed down your run.

Worth noting that it took 3 tries, a lot of conservative play and resources to do that in 53 minutes as "the hardest thing you have done so far" while today you seemingly just smack everything in a speed run.

It was new then.

Then when EE temple came out, I said the same thing on my bladeforged. Hell, I still sometimes get punked in EE wgu on my bladeforged if I make a wrong move with all that aggro.

I don't see what your point is, are you saying that the human version of my kensei is so outwardly inefficient that it takes a bladeforged revision to make it powerful?

Nayus
06-28-2014, 08:41 PM
It was new then.

Then when EE temple came out, I said the same thing on my bladeforged. Hell, I still sometimes get punked in EE wgu on my bladeforged if I make a wrong move with all that aggro.

I don't see what your point is, are you saying that the human version of my kensei is so outwardly inefficient that it takes a bladeforged revision to make it powerful?Nope, I just like to trace comparatives to you, a incredibly skilled player, with a monstruously effective build and the best gear available out there. Even you gets spanked sometimes (sometimes) and that's a lesson, I was trying to convince CThru to max out the Wand Line but it seem we have different directives, either way if he doesn't have any sort of survivability problem in Epic Elite quests and can afford to gimp two of the most powerful fleshy healing asset out there in favor of 1d6 cold damage after vorpals and a song that brings nothing new to the table then we're set. I just don't think I'll be able to survive if I drop to 20 hit points with a horde of Epic Elite monsters aggroed on me so I just try my best.

Well, part of it was the way I type, maybe if I had brought each topic one by one in a more passive manner we could have had a longer discussion but I stopped battling against my tics for quite some years now.

Your human version is a beast, my main is a human rogue ranger, I couldn't afford to focus on getting sky-high saves at that point so I just went for maximum scroll healing, improved evasion and several other tricks scattered around my APs and EDs, it may be a totally different build but I took a lot of inspiration from you and a couple more incredible users in this forum, it's my effort to slowly (but steadily) catch up xD

CThruTheEgo
06-29-2014, 02:17 PM
Nope, I just like to trace comparatives to you, a incredibly skilled player, with a monstruously effective build and the best gear available out there.

And here is where I think you and I have a huge difference in priorities. Cetus and his build are both top notch, there's no doubt about that. But I have no desire to compare myself to him or my builds to his, nor to accomplish any of the things he does. But that seems to be your goal, and that's fine.


either way if he doesn't have any sort of survivability problem in Epic Elite quests and can afford to gimp two of the most powerful fleshy healing asset out there in favor of 1d6 cold damage after vorpals and a song that brings nothing new to the table then we're set. I just don't think I'll be able to survive if I drop to 20 hit points with a horde of Epic Elite monsters aggroed on me so I just try my best.

You seem to have missed my point about why I invest in warchanter and why scroll healing isn't needed. It is good that you recognize your own limits of survivability though, and how to compensate for them. I know my limits as well, and I know that what I have planned will be sufficient for my goals and playstyle. For you, following my plan would be gimping yourself since you intend to play this build quite differently. If I were to follow your suggestions, I would be gimping myself since I will be playing it differently than you. It's all about finding the right fit between build, goals, and playstyle.

And it's d6 cold damage after a crit hit, not vorpal, btw.


Well, part of it was the way I type, maybe if I had brought each topic one by one in a more passive manner we could have had a longer discussion but I stopped battling against my tics for quite some years now.

No need to let the discussion die. I'm certainly not one to back down from a good debate, but context is important and you didn't seem to recognize that aspect of the discussion, although I think you see it more clearly now. It is unlikely that we will come to a mutual agreement about how this should be built and played, but that doesn't mean the discussion won't be productive anyway.

Nayus
06-29-2014, 07:10 PM
Nope, you shunned my insight right from the start, from the very first paragraph you typed. Telling me I said "do this" instead of "I think doing this route is better due to the relative achievements of humankind and the nature of DDO's power curves" doesn't excuse you from that. You have 150% to do what you wish but please don't cotton-candy your words like this, it makes me sick, at least say "No, thanks" and move on, I seriously would not mind at all as I was admittedly biased by my playstyle

I was trying to defend Action Boosts and you say I'm trying to force you to play the way I want.... huh what?? I try to defend heal amp and you just say you don't need any more defenses without even balancing the ins and outs of dropping Warchanter for it. I try to set an example of survivability/power as a mean of comparison and you say I'm trying to surpass Cetus. Can you be more dramatic?

And to latter, of course I am. If I wouldn't aim for Cetus I would aim for what? A kobold?

One day I will become... a double-barreled Kobold.

CThruTheEgo
06-29-2014, 10:16 PM
Nope, you shunned my insight right from the start, from the very first paragraph you typed.

The first paragraph of my response to you was about how your suggestions seemed to be geared more toward heroic content. I'm sorry if that upset you but you did say that you were level 18 and, for heroics, I actually agree with many of your suggestions. I then went on to specifically point out how many of your suggestions were not ideal for my goals with the build at cap.


Telling me I said "do this" instead of "I think doing this route is better due to the relative achievements of humankind and the nature of DDO's power curves" doesn't excuse you from that.

I don't know where you're getting this from. I think I've done a pretty good job of recognizing our differences in priorities and justifying our build choices based on those. Regarding your suggestion to invest in heal amp and wand and scroll mastery, for example, I pointed out specifically how I wouldn't need to do this since I would be running in divine crusader and would get sufficient healing from that, but I also mentioned that since you were not planning to run in divine crusader then you would need more sufficient means of alternative healing (i.e. heal amp and wand and scroll mastery) and that it might be a good option for you.


You have 150% to do what you wish but please don't cotton-candy your words like this, it makes me sick, at least say "No, thanks" and move on, I seriously would not mind at all as I was admittedly biased by my playstyle

Hmmm, I seem to recall you saying that I was gimping myself by investing in warchanter instead of heal amp, that "you should keep your Boosts always on if you plan on doing damage," and that without action boosts I would do "subpar DPS". You might want to consider candy-coating some of your own words if you want your suggestions to be received better.


I was trying to defend Action Boosts and you say I'm trying to force you to play the way I want.... huh what??

Huh what?? is right. Where did I say this exactly?


I try to defend heal amp and you just say you don't need any more defenses without even balancing the ins and outs of dropping Warchanter for it.

This is where you're missing my point. Divine crusader provides plenty of healing already, so there's no need for me to balance the ins and outs of dropping warchanter for more heal amp. I also pointed out some of the benefits of warchanter and, although I acknowledged that they are minor, they are a greater benefit than more heal amp since I won't need it in the first place. I also mentioned that it was a possibility to drop warchanter and invest more into spellsinger to access another point of charisma, which, as I mentioned, is the primary benefit of warchanter. I also said that since you're not running in divine crusader, then you would need better alternative healing, thereby supporting your suggestion for your purposes.


I try to set an example of survivability/power as a mean of comparison and you say I'm trying to surpass Cetus. Can you be more dramatic?

And to latter, of course I am.

But you admit this, so how am I being dramatic? It seems to me like I just read you and the situation accurately.

LupusVai
07-01-2014, 06:05 AM
Hi

Just a quick question.
You've taken enchant weapon enhancement from warchanter which adds the artificer spell to enchant weapons.
Do you know if it stacks with the enhancement weapons bonus that you get from core 2, 4 and 6 of swashbuckler? Not sure if its the same bonus type.

CThruTheEgo
07-01-2014, 06:13 AM
Hi

Just a quick question.
You've taken enchant weapon enhancement from warchanter which adds the artificer spell to enchant weapons.
Do you know if it stacks with the enhancement weapons bonus that you get from core 2, 4 and 6 of swashbuckler? Not sure if its the same bonus type.

Yes I can confirm that this does stack. If you have spell power slotted on the weapon (or shield), the implement bonus is what it should be from the core enhancements and enchant weapons.

LupusVai
07-01-2014, 06:22 AM
thankyou

Detton
07-02-2014, 01:12 PM
What are your thoughts on this?

I have been thinking about going Improved Critical: Slashing, and picking up weapon proficiency: Exotic.

Level 15 version: http://ddowiki.com/page/Forester%27s_Brush_Hook_(Level_15)

Level 24 version: http://ddowiki.com/page/Forester%27s_Brush_Hook_(Level_24)

And, i can later drop exotic and use...

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Devourer%27s_Reaping

A lot of nice goodies there. The kama can be gotten in various versions up to that point, and the sickle seems very solid with an absolutely crazy 14% doublestrike and other effects.

I will probably be giving up some of the spellcasting feats for it - but here is my situation:

I run normal modes currently. First life, I am not a VIP, and I don't run with groups or have an opener, so I run normal modes, and occasionally Hards afterwards, but i'm mostly pushing for XP, and currently, the CC bonuses I would gain for focus: enchantment just do not seem like they would be useful for me, compared to just stabbing something in the neck a dozen times.

If I reincarnate, then it will be an entirely different issue that I will deal with then, but given my situation, how do you rate those items primarily for a buckler of swash?

Mercureal
07-02-2014, 01:19 PM
The forester's brush hook is a nice weapon, but the epic version is tough to acquire. Unless you already have one sitting in the bank, I'd have a backup weapon planned. There aren't many (any?) other good named kamas, and that one could take a long while to get.

Detton
07-02-2014, 01:22 PM
I'll see if one is available on the Shard AH; i've build up a fair amount of them over time just selling things for shards that, let's be honest, I don't deserve to be able to sell at all. :) But good point there.

Do you think the brush hook would be better than the devourer's reaping or the other way around?

CThruTheEgo
07-02-2014, 02:19 PM
What are your thoughts on this?

I have been thinking about going Improved Critical: Slashing, and picking up weapon proficiency: Exotic.

Level 15 version: http://ddowiki.com/page/Forester%27s_Brush_Hook_(Level_15)

Level 24 version: http://ddowiki.com/page/Forester%27s_Brush_Hook_(Level_24)

And, i can later drop exotic and use...

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Devourer%27s_Reaping

A lot of nice goodies there. The kama can be gotten in various versions up to that point, and the sickle seems very solid with an absolutely crazy 14% doublestrike and other effects.

I will probably be giving up some of the spellcasting feats for it - but here is my situation:

I run normal modes currently. First life, I am not a VIP, and I don't run with groups or have an opener, so I run normal modes, and occasionally Hards afterwards, but i'm mostly pushing for XP, and currently, the CC bonuses I would gain for focus: enchantment just do not seem like they would be useful for me, compared to just stabbing something in the neck a dozen times.

If I reincarnate, then it will be an entirely different issue that I will deal with then, but given my situation, how do you rate those items primarily for a buckler of swash?

Either of those are a good substitute for Balizarde, but neither will compare to a tier 3 thunderforged, although it sounds like that might be a ways off for you. So yeah, either one would be fine. The brush hook will have the same crit profile of Balizarde and comparable base damage and damage effects. It lacks the defensive properties, but gains nearly universal DR breaking. Both of them will beat the sickle, though. And the 14% doublestrike doesn't stack with the 10% from divine crusader, so if you plan to run in divine crusader, then you should think of it as 4% doublestrike.

Since you're only doing normal and occasionally hard, yeah I'd say you can safely drop spell focus and the related twists. So it sounds like a solid plan for you.

unbongwah
07-02-2014, 02:38 PM
And the 14% doublestrike doesn't stack with the 10% from divine crusader, so if you plan to run in divine crusader, then you should think of it as 4% doublestrike.
Seriously?! :( Oh well, silver lining, that saves me a gear slot when I'm in DC...*sigh*

Mercureal
07-02-2014, 02:42 PM
I'll see if one is available on the Shard AH; i've build up a fair amount of them over time just selling things for shards that, let's be honest, I don't deserve to be able to sell at all. :) But good point there.

Do you think the brush hook would be better than the devourer's reaping or the other way around?


I agree with the build creator's post above. In terms of weapon DPS, the FBH seems a lot better, with a higher base damage and a +1 crit multiplier. With IC:Slash, that will equate to an incremental 6 extra hits over the course of 20 attacks when compared with the sickle, which seems better than 14% doublestrike. I suppose if you put a lot of value into the vorpal effect and the augment slots, it could be the other way around.

CThruTheEgo
07-02-2014, 03:29 PM
Seriously?! :( Oh well, silver lining, that saves me a gear slot when I'm in DC...*sigh*

Yeah someone tested it and posted somewhere on the forums, I don't remember where I saw it though. The effect didn't show up in the buff bar or the character sheet until the stack was greater than the item they were wearing. I suspect that's a bug, but it's anyone's guess if/when it'll be fixed.

On any build that has a high crit rate, it's easy to get and maintain a full stack, so it basically nullifies item doublestrike.

CThruTheEgo
07-02-2014, 03:38 PM
I suppose if you put a lot of value into the vorpal effect and the augment slots, it could be the other way around.

Now that I think about it more, with perfect SWF the vorpal effect will happen 10% of the time, which means an average of +20 damage per hit or 10% instakill if they're below 2k hp. On normal, which is the difficulty Detton plays the most, most mobs will be below 2k hp. I'd say it's a toss up between the dps of more crits or 10% instakills. For normal it won't make much difference either way.

Detton
07-02-2014, 07:35 PM
Good to know! Thanks for the update on that - 4% doublestrike isn't nearly as enticing, and I can work around it. I do plan on Divine Crusader and working on that.

LotM
07-03-2014, 06:04 AM
I am certain this question sounds very noobish, but I dont understand where you get your to-hit rolls from?

The strength on the toon is very low, and your dex isnt great even if you did have weapon finesse, which you don't.

What am I missing?

LupusVai
07-03-2014, 07:56 AM
I am certain this question sounds very noobish, but I dont understand where you get your to-hit rolls from?

The strength on the toon is very low, and your dex isnt great even if you did have weapon finesse, which you don't.

What am I missing?

Even with a starting strength of 12. He probably has a total strength of high 30's with equipment, tomes and buffs. Add to that, most mellee toons use power attack which is -5 to hit. This one has precision instead which is +5 to hit. (That's effectively another +20 strength over a regular mellee toon when it comes to the to hit.) Now consider bard songs, swashbuvkler to hit enhancements and buffs. The to hit of this character will be darn effective. ;-)

CThruTheEgo
07-03-2014, 08:23 AM
I am certain this question sounds very noobish, but I dont understand where you get your to-hit rolls from?

The strength on the toon is very low, and your dex isnt great even if you did have weapon finesse, which you don't.

What am I missing?

To-hit shouldn't be a problem for any build anymore. With the changes to attack, you'd have to work pretty hard to get a character that can't hit. As long as your to-hit stat (str, dex, etc.) is in the 30s, you can hit just fine even in EE.

LupusVai already mentioned where some of the bonuses come from. Divine crusader's first core, just cause, grants BAB equal to your character level. This is significant because you get a higher base attack than any class inherently gets but more importantly, BAB affects attack speed. Which means with a BAB of 28 and GSWF, this build will have the highest base attack speed, with haste added on top of course.

I should probably add this to the OP since this seems to be a common question, but here's a full breakdown:

To-Hit
28 BAB divine crusader's just cause (1st core)
3 enhancement from swashbuckler cores
14 str38
4 morale (inspire courage)
2 competence (inspire greatness)
8-12 enhancement (depending on weapon - Balizarde or up to tier 3 Thunderforged)
59-63 Total
Add to this the 20% base percent chance that all characters get as well as the 5% percent bonus from precision.

giftie
07-03-2014, 09:39 AM
The brush hook will have the same crit profile of Balizarde and comparable base damage and damage effects.

Actually, Brush Hook should have 17-20 x4, whereas Balizarde is 18-20 x4. Not sure if it's worth a feat slot on the Count, but looks very yummy for the Fighter splash builds. 09-20 x4... *makes Homer Simpson drool sounds*

gwonbush
07-03-2014, 09:44 AM
Keen Edge doesn't stack with the improved crit range of Swashbuckling, except for Rapiers and Kukris (since they don't get extended crit ranges). You will get an 11-20/x4 crit range in DC, and with Exploit Weakness enhancing that somewhat (around 56% chance to crit).

CThruTheEgo
07-03-2014, 10:01 AM
Actually, Brush Hook should have 17-20 x4, whereas Balizarde is 18-20 x4. Not sure if it's worth a feat slot on the Count, but looks very yummy for the Fighter splash builds. 09-20 x4... *makes Homer Simpson drool sounds*

You're right. I was counting the bonus from divine crusader for Balizarde but not the Brush Hook. So that gives Balizarde 13-20x4 and the Brush Hook 11-20x4. Thunderforged should still be top dps, but the Brush Hook makes a great leveling weapon if you can afford the feat.

giftie
07-03-2014, 10:05 AM
Keen Edge doesn't stack with the improved crit range of Swashbuckling, except for Rapiers and Kukris (since they don't get extended crit ranges). You will get an 11-20/x4 crit range in DC, and with Exploit Weakness enhancing that somewhat (around 56% chance to crit).

Och, that's right. Still makes it a good weapon for the 12/6/2 splits without KE, but unlike Kensai you're building around a non-TF weapon which comes with other problems.

EDIT: SB stacks with Critical Rage, though. I'm really tempted to roll up a Barb/Bard/FvS, and test out that 7-20 x4 crit range.

Detton
07-04-2014, 08:31 PM
I went from critting regularly 130s to capping ~200, to critting 230s regularly and pushing next to 300.

+1, would murder corrupted druids again. Highly recommended! Definitely for a fighter split, but for my situation, well worth losing the DC-based casting feats for. (Still planning on Quicken.)

CThruTheEgo
07-04-2014, 08:58 PM
I went from critting regularly 130s to capping ~200, to critting 230s regularly and pushing next to 300.

+1, would murder corrupted druids again. Highly recommended! Definitely for a fighter split, but for my situation, well worth losing the DC-based casting feats for. (Still planning on Quicken.)

Nice. Thanks for the update and glad to help out.

redoubt
07-08-2014, 06:00 PM
1. With perform DC easily in the 90+ range, music of the dead, contruct and now vermin available, why bother with other CC? i.e. what does disco ball hit that a song doesn't? What is the play style that makes having the other CC worth doing?

2. So word on the street says that Celestial Champion doublestrike bonus is NOT stacking with items that have doublestrike on them. Do I understand this correctly?

Thanks!

gwonbush
07-08-2014, 06:42 PM
Disco balls can catch monsters AFTER the effect goes into place, unlike fascinate which is single use. Also important is that the danced enemies don't stop being CCed when hit, unlike fascinated enemies.

CThruTheEgo
07-09-2014, 08:17 AM
1. With perform DC easily in the 90+ range, music of the dead, contruct and now vermin available, why bother with other CC? i.e. what does disco ball hit that a song doesn't? What is the play style that makes having the other CC worth doing?

As gwonbush mentioned, Otto's sphere is persistent and mobs don't break out of it upon being hit. This is particularly useful for the multiple waves of trash mechanic that the devs seem to enjoy using lately.


2. So word on the street says that Celestial Champion doublestrike bonus is NOT stacking with items that have doublestrike on them. Do I understand this correctly?

That is correct. What that basically means is that you save a gear slot – bracers, gloves, or buckler. And that it doesn't matter which buckler you use – Epic Swashbuckler or Kobold Admiral's Tiller – since both have guardbreaking, which is their greatest asset. If using Balizarde, then you don't need the dodge from the Tiller. If using Thunderforged, then you'll want the Tiller for the dodge.

Nordenfeldt
07-09-2014, 09:13 AM
So I have beel working on a version of this build, but as a Drow instead of human. Loss of a feat means I drop the 28th perfect TWF, and just push everything else back one.

So far it is working wonderfully. Higher CHR means slightly more damage and higher DC, I dropped some of the warchanter to take advantage of the Drow weapon enhancement lines, which give me +4/+4 hit and damage with Rapiers/SS and shiruken (and two free shiruken feats). Spell resistance is an added perk as well.

I lose the boosts, but I have always thought they are overvalued anyways: 20 seconds is just not enough.

Starting stats (2x TR):
Str: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Chr 20

CThruTheEgo
07-09-2014, 10:11 AM
So I have beel working on a version of this build, but as a Drow instead of human. Loss of a feat means I drop the 28th perfect TWF, and just push everything else back one.

So far it is working wonderfully. Higher CHR means slightly more damage and higher DC, I dropped some of the warchanter to take advantage of the Drow weapon enhancement lines, which give me +4/+4 hit and damage with Rapiers/SS and shiruken (and two free shiruken feats). Spell resistance is an added perk as well.

I lose the boosts, but I have always thought they are overvalued anyways: 20 seconds is just not enough.

Starting stats (2x TR):
Str: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Chr 20

Nice. Glad you're enjoying the build.

A word of caution though. The level 26 and 28 feats are epic destiny feats, requiring maxed xp in a destiny from the relevant sphere. The regular feats cannot take the place of these feats, so you're going to have to drop something else. I don't know what you're willing to sacrifice, but you're going to have to lose something.

nivarch
07-15-2014, 12:57 PM
I am building a kind of similar character at the moment and I really like him.
I am currently level 16 and the DPS is insane and the survivability is really good.

Because there are so many undeads in the game I went with IC:Blunt to make the most of a triple pos mace.
Additionally Skullsmasher is an amazing weapon both heroic and epic (as have been discussed Skullsmasher out DPS balizarde). Additionally there are options with keen available to compensate (Razorend and Balizarde) while weapons with impact are rare.



The leather armor is an OK choice. It's far more important to keep your dodge maxed rather than get a little bit of PRR, so it might be better to stick with robes. You'll have to see what your dodge will be at various levels and compare it to the dodge cap on the armor to see if it is worth it or not. I'm only level 9 and have 24% dodge so I'm sticking with robes.


Can you give me a breakdown of your dodge? I am far from this amount of dodge, and I wouldn't mind boosting my dodge a bit to further improve survivability (I don't need it, but I like maxing certain aspect of a character when TRing).

CThruTheEgo
07-15-2014, 01:39 PM
Can you give me a breakdown of your dodge?

At level 9 my dodge was:

3 swashbuckler cores
3 on your toes
10 skirmisher
6 item
2 mobility
24 total

I ended up making the Frozen Tunic somewhere around level 10ish and lost the mobility, although you can still get it if you take the Tunic to tier 3 which allows you to craft on it but also binds it to character. 6 dodge is available on lootgen starting at level 9 with masterful craftsmanship or cursed items.

I found my dps to be overkill and the need for survivability rising around these levels, so I switched from nothing in the offhand (which grants 10% doublestrike) to a buckler (which grants 10% dodge). Plus, Cove had started and I was actually able to acquire a decent buckler. I made a level 8 tier 1 version, and tier 3 of the level 12 and 16 versions. I already had a tier 3 level 20. If you don't have the Cove buckler already, you can craft a buckler with some decent attributes. It'll probably be better than any random junk you find.

Seikojin
07-15-2014, 02:05 PM
With the changes to spellsinger and warchanter, are going to tweak this for better dc's?

CThruTheEgo
07-15-2014, 02:14 PM
With the changes to spellsinger and warchanter, are going to tweak this for better dc's?

Yeah I'm sure that I will, but I'll wait til they go live before doing so. I like being able to CC, so I'll likely try to pump my enchantment DCs, possibly at the expense of warchanter altogether. I'll see when the changes hit live.

EDIT: I just now saw that the patch is going live tomorrow, so I'll update the build in the next day or two.

nivarch
07-15-2014, 02:26 PM
At level 9 my dodge was:

3 swashbuckler cores
3 on your toes
10 skirmisher
6 item
2 mobility
24 total

I ended up making the Frozen Tunic somewhere around level 10ish and lost the mobility, although you can still get it if you take the Tunic to tier 3 which allows you to craft on it but also binds it to character. 6 dodge is available on lootgen starting at level 9 with masterful craftsmanship or cursed items.

I found my dps to be overkill and the need for survivability rising around these levels, so I switched from nothing in the offhand (which grants 10% doublestrike) to a buckler (which grants 10% dodge). Plus, Cove had started and I was actually able to acquire a decent buckler. I made a level 8 tier 1 version, and tier 3 of the level 12 and 16 versions. I already had a tier 3 level 20. If you don't have the Cove buckler already, you can craft a buckler with some decent attributes. It'll probably be better than any random junk you find.

Thanks. So you went for bucklers.
I agree that the DPS is overkill, and 10% doublestrike is probably wasted at that level (it happens most of the time against an already dead monster).
I don't have a cove buckler, and will never get one. I don't find it worth it running cove to equip low level characters... (even if the level 8 and level 16 versions are really very nice).

However I wish they could add a few heroic named bucklers...

Ancient
07-15-2014, 03:04 PM
You can craft some nice low level bucklers. Seeker and Melee alacrity is very complimentary to the swashbuckler bonuses.

CThruTheEgo
07-15-2014, 03:04 PM
Thanks. So you went for bucklers.
I agree that the DPS is overkill, and 10% doublestrike is probably wasted at that level (it happens most of the time against an already dead monster).
I don't have a cove buckler, and will never get one. I don't find it worth it running cove to equip low level characters... (even if the level 8 and level 16 versions are really very nice).

However I wish they could add a few heroic named bucklers...

I would recommend the 10% doublestrike before level 8 since the extra defense isn't needed. But around level 8-10ish is when defense starts becoming more useful. I understand not wanting to run Cove, it's not for everybody. It's actually the only event that I enjoy though, so I was glad to have a reason to run it this time around.

And I agree, we need more named bucklers at all levels.

CThruTheEgo
07-15-2014, 03:29 PM
You can craft some nice low level bucklers. Seeker and Melee alacrity is very complimentary to the swashbuckler bonuses.

Devotion is also a decent option, once you start using spells instead of pots, that is.

nivarch
07-15-2014, 03:31 PM
I would recommend the 10% doublestrike before level 8 since the extra defense isn't needed. But around level 8-10ish is when defense starts becoming more useful. I understand not wanting to run Cove, it's not for everybody. It's actually the only event that I enjoy though, so I was glad to have a reason to run it this time around.

And I agree, we need more named bucklers at all levels.

Well I don't mind running it once or twice... But that's way too much grind, for so many items :)

But I agree with your progression: Empty handed until level 8-9 ; and then a buckler. Especially for


You can craft some nice low level bucklers. Seeker and Melee alacrity is very complimentary to the swashbuckler bonuses.

Seeker is a great idea, even if nowadays it's very easy to slot it anywhere else.

Melee alacrity... Well I keep haste on me 100% of the time. So I don't really see the need. So that leaves the suffix opened.
Fire or Lightning absorption could help mitigating spell and trap damage. But I am not convinced... and don't really see anything else really appealing. Maybe axeblock or invulnerability...
If you have any suggestions!


Devotion is also a decent option, once you start using spells instead of pots, that is.

I thought of devotion, and it can be a really nice option.
But I tend to slot it on my main hand weapon red slot, and well I tend to scroll heal a lot to compensate with the kinda weak SP pool a swashbuckler has (it's easy to boost SP pool vastly but once again we level up so fast I don't really see the need).

Resonance could be nice, especially with the new spellsinger coming...
But I am not very sure on how the various swash enhancements scale with Resonance. When I tried briefly it didn't seem to have such a big impact.
Maybe I should give it another try to see how efficient Sword dance is at mid level with a high resonance item.

CThruTheEgo
07-15-2014, 03:35 PM
Maybe axeblock or invulnerability...

Invulnerability is only good until around level 8-10ish. After that, most mobs do magic damage and will bypass it. If I have any crafted DR at that point, I go with axeblock or spearblock.

nivarch
07-15-2014, 03:37 PM
Invulnerability is only good until around level 8-10ish. After that, most mobs do magic damage and will bypass it. If I have any crafted DR at that point, I go with axeblock or spearblock.

Do you have any analysis of that?
I do remember invulnerability working very late (blood fiend trolls was a striking example of a mob that never upgrades its masterwork club :D).

But I have never studied it ; and it has probably changed a lot since I read that.

CThruTheEgo
07-15-2014, 03:55 PM
Do you have any analysis of that?
I do remember invulnerability working very late (blood fiend trolls was a striking example of a mob that never upgrades its masterwork club :D).

But I have never studied it ; and it has probably changed a lot since I read that.

I've had that assumption for years now and have no idea where I got it from. I know that I've heard the same from others but whether someone actually tested it or it's just heresay, I don't know. I've just always thought of it as basic general knowledge. But you might be right, maybe it's an incorrect assumption.

Ancient
07-15-2014, 04:16 PM
Resonance could be nice, especially with the new spellsinger coming...
Resonance is great even without spellsinger. Resonate weapons 6d6 sonic damage applies spell power (but not crits it seems). I use the house C blasting chime to provide 90 spell power at level 13. Add in 15 perform from a cove hat, perform skill points, implement points from the weapon... and it is a significant amount of damage each crit.

Ragnarnessaja
07-16-2014, 06:47 AM
Hey CThru. Big fan of your builds. Loved Dubbel O' Seven to pieces, and I I absolutely HAVE to roll up a Count after seeing this, but I have a question.

In one of your posts you replied to a question about what to do with stats for a 34pt build and said drop Str to 10, since Dex is important for Reflex, Con is Important for HP, and Charisma is important for CC DC's and Instakill DC's.

What instakills do Bards get? I've never heard of them having one, and a quick check of their spell list doesn't turn anything up. Is there an enhancement instakill they get?

CThruTheEgo
07-16-2014, 08:07 AM
Hey CThru. Big fan of your builds. Loved Dubbel O' Seven to pieces, and I I absolutely HAVE to roll up a Count after seeing this, but I have a question.

In one of your posts you replied to a question about what to do with stats for a 34pt build and said drop Str to 10, since Dex is important for Reflex, Con is Important for HP, and Charisma is important for CC DC's and Instakill DC's.

What instakills do Bards get? I've never heard of them having one, and a quick check of their spell list doesn't turn anything up. Is there an enhancement instakill they get?

Thanks. Coup de grace is a tier 5 enhancement in the swashbuckler tree. When an enemy is in certain, easily achieved, states (knocked down, fascinated, stunned, danced, etc.), activate coup de grace to instantly kill them using a DC of your perform skill plus d20. Coup has a cooldown of 15 seconds. It is easy to get a perform skill of 70 with minimal investment and close to or over 100 with investment. It's a lot of fun. :)

Michaelaz2
07-16-2014, 03:55 PM
I absolutely love this build, thanks for a great build that CC's, great DPS, Buffs, self heals and heals others as well.

Anyone who has a raider box laying around should roll one just to use the rapier, its crazy. I also crafted a thunderforged with Sonic 150.

Look forward to seeing what changes you have in store with new patch #2

unbongwah
07-17-2014, 08:22 AM
Now that the WC & SS changes have gone live, what if any changes would you make to this build? It seems like adding the lower-tier SS SLAs would be nice, but how would you rearrange your APs?

CThruTheEgo
07-17-2014, 08:36 AM
I absolutely love this build, thanks for a great build that CC's, great DPS, Buffs, self heals and heals others as well.

Thanks. Glad you like the build.


Now that the WC & SS changes have gone live, what if any changes would you make to this build? It seems like adding the lower-tier SS SLAs would be nice, but how would you rearrange your APs?

I'm still trying to find the balance. The one thing I feel like this build lacks is a solid AoE option, and the SLAs seem like the obvious solution to that. But without maximize and empower, the SLAs seem rather lackluster. And I don't want to drop any feats to pick up maximize and empower, although I'm open to hearing others' thoughts on this.

I'd love to get more DCs from spellsinger, but my playstyle tends to favor melee so I'd rather spend in warchanter. I'm almost to level 20 so I'll have all my AP to play around with soon enough. I'll update the OP once I feel like I've found the balance, or at least some options which favor different playstyles.

I'd love to hear what you all think of the new trees and how you're spending your AP.

unbongwah
07-17-2014, 10:03 AM
I have a TWF CHA-based pure Spellsinger who is my highest-lvl bard ATM, so naturally I'm psyched about all the SLAs and DC bonuses in SS tree now. Main drawback is I don't have room for Emp+Max either, so I can't make full use of the sonic SLAs. So for now I've just taken the Enchantment SLAs and have rounded things out with SB & WC. I'm actually thinking of making a pure caster bard for my next alt, which would be a first.

Not sure what I make of Warchanter yet. It seems less lame overall, but the lower tiers are still fairly blah; and I'm a bit annoyed the DCs on the freezing atks are based on CHA when the rest of WC seems STR-based. But it does mean there are some synergies with SB.

Myznar
07-17-2014, 02:21 PM
I really liked this build and works pretty nice and it's very fun to use! Im at lvl 13 first life and don't have good items but I don't have much problems to do a good job.

My question is, how this build is capable to hit at higher levels? If I understand it correctly, different tack gives a stat to damage, but the attack bonus is still str right? (EDIT: nvm already found the answer in a last post ^^)

And another question, instead of spell focus I choosed thoughness, do you think I should swap this on later levels?

I also wish to read the changes you consider with the upgraded enhacements ^^

music of sewers and undeads were enhacements i didnt like too much for this build, but now gives more DC and positive spell power!

TY for sharing and sorry for my english!

Illiamfryn
07-17-2014, 02:45 PM
I am level 25 with this build. It rocks. I am an old player in this game and i mostly play melees. I can only say good things about the build and the whole gameplay. Very survivable, wonderful dps. I just made him PDK iconic. With PDK you can put your charisma to "to-hit" with shortswords and with swashbuckler you use it for damage too. Nice option as well. Today i am trying to find where to spend 30AP....

Detton
07-17-2014, 06:48 PM
I am almost 20 - On the edge, as it were. I'm not sure what to do with the new enhancements - I like them all! - but I ultimately decided to focus on Warchanter after Swashbuckler. As I've stated in the thread before, at the moment, I am doing doing Elite / Epic Elite content. Maybe when I reincarnate and i'm on a second or third life (i don't want to fish for an opener, and i'm not a VIP), but not right now.

Here is what I got in Warchanter:

4 Cores, taking skaldic constitution instead of skaldic rage. I never felt like I used the rage, and I didn't want another clicky. Bad idea? Probably; i'm lazy. :)

Tier 1:
1/1 Enchant Weapons
3/3 Rough and Ready
= Self explanatory. +1 enhancement bonus and some PRR and AC.

Tier 2:
3/3 Iced Edges for 1d6 cold damage on every hit
1/3 Action boost: sprint because I NEED IT DONT JUDGE ME.

Tier 3:
3/3 High Spirits: Immunity to exhaustion seemed like it would be convenient and save some headache, at the least.
3/3 Frozen Fury: A +3(w) attack that freezes a target based on my cha? That will give me another melee-type attack to coup de grace off of.
1/1 charisma

Tier 4:
3/3 Recklace chants: 6 passive doublestrike, little spell power, works for me

And I will fill in what I need to to pick up the 5th core and get the base attack bonus.

Spellsinger, I just have the 1 core point, and 3/3 magical studies for Magical Training and spell points.

The rest of the points follow the build still. What do I wish I could get from Spellsinger? Well, there's quite a bit of perform to be had from putting points there, that's for sure! Longer bard songs would be convenient, and the DCs to my CC spells is probably the big one. It's what I'm likely going to push for on a 2nd/3rd TR just to keep things off my back!

Are my theories sound, at least at base? Any thoughts? It works out well for me so far, but then again, i'm not exactly doing the hardest content.

CThruTheEgo
07-21-2014, 10:53 AM
Thanks all for the comments about how you're spending your AP in the new trees.


Not sure what I make of Warchanter yet. It seems less lame overall, but the lower tiers are still fairly blah; and I'm a bit annoyed the DCs on the freezing atks are based on CHA when the rest of WC seems STR-based. But it does mean there are some synergies with SB.

I agree that warchanter feels underwhelming still, definitely improved, but not amazing. The main thing I'd want from there is reckless chant and 23 AP is a lot for basically 6% doublestrike and 12 PRR. Everything else you can get is not significant imo.


And another question, instead of spell focus I choosed thoughness, do you think I should swap this on later levels?

Glad you are enjoying the build Myznar. If you want to use Otto's sphere in higher level epics, then yes I would eventually swap out toughness for spell focus enchantment, but you really don't need it until higher levels. I had extend instead of spell focus until level 20, and I still don't really need spell focus yet. It's mainly to reach DC requirements for upper level EE content.


I am level 25 with this build. It rocks. I am an old player in this game and i mostly play melees. I can only say good things about the build and the whole gameplay. Very survivable, wonderful dps. I just made him PDK iconic. With PDK you can put your charisma to "to-hit" with shortswords and with swashbuckler you use it for damage too. Nice option as well. Today i am trying to find where to spend 30AP....

Glad you are enjoying it. I'm still trying to figure out how to spend my AP as well. Overall, I think spellsinger is better for harder content but warchanter is more useful for lesser content.


...snip...
Are my theories sound, at least at base? Any thoughts? It works out well for me so far, but then again, i'm not exactly doing the hardest content.

Yep, your theories are sound. As I see it, there are basically two ways to go with this build and the new trees. Focus more on warchanter for better melee dps or focus on spellsinger for better DCs. For the most difficult content, I'd favor spellsinger to boost DCs. For anything else, I'd favor warchanter since the uber DCs aren't really needed and the SLAs really aren't impressive without building for them (which includes empower and maximize).

Maelodic
07-21-2014, 04:57 PM
Glad you are enjoying it. I'm still trying to figure out how to spend my AP as well. Overall, I think spellsinger is better for harder content but warchanter is more useful for lesser content.

I've recently rebuilt my build to essentially be a variant of yours, but I've done the enhancements in this way if it's any help:


Drow
Spell Resistance II
Charisma II

Spellsinger
Core I
Magical Studies III
Lingering Song III
Core II
Wand and Scroll Mastery III
Marigold Enchant
Core III
Spellsong Trance
Charisma
Enthrallment
Core IV
Sustaining Song
Charisma

Warchanter
Core I
Enchant Weapons

Swashbuckler
Core I
On Your Toes III
Tavern Shanties I
Core II
Fast Movement
Deflect Arrows
Doublestrike III
Core III
Skirmisher
Resonent Arms III
Different Tack
Charisma
Core IV
Low Blow
Charisma
Core V
Coup De Grace
Exploit Weakness
Thread the Needle
Second Skin III
Capstone

Sustaining Song now scales on positive spell power and does a very good job at healing up- Spellsong Trance also adds another DC to your enchantment and makes all your buff and heal costs go down.
I now get 61 to enchant DCs by going into Spellsinger- which you'd hit the same. It's easy to hit higher DC levels on Bard now- but you need to invest in Spellsinger a bit so that's why I decided to pick up Sustaining Song instead of Reckless/Ironskin

CThruTheEgo
07-21-2014, 05:41 PM
I've recently rebuilt my build to essentially be a variant of yours, but I've done the enhancements in this way if it's any help:


Sustaining Song now scales on positive spell power and does a very good job at healing up- Spellsong Trance also adds another DC to your enchantment and makes all your buff and heal costs go down.
I now get 61 to enchant DCs by going into Spellsinger- which you'd hit the same. It's easy to hit higher DC levels on Bard now- but you need to invest in Spellsinger a bit so that's why I decided to pick up Sustaining Song instead of Reckless/Ironskin

Heh, I was just sitting down to update the enhancements. Mine will look very similar to yours. I'm going to include two options though - one for boosting DCs for endgame and another for content where enchant DC does not need to be so high. I'll be going with the second option until endgame. Earlier epics, even EE, don't require a super high DC and there is a lot of content with drow, so CC from spells won't be an option against them anyway.

CThruTheEgo
07-21-2014, 06:49 PM
OP updated with enhancements. I'll copy the enhancement section of the OP here, along with my comments, for easy reference and discussion.

Enhancements:
I will include two options for enhancements. Both options will use swashbuckler as the primary tree and most of those enhancements will not change. The main difference will be in which tree is used as the secondary focus. The first option uses spellsinger as the secondary tree and is designed for endgame when you want enchant DCs to be as high as you can reach. The second option uses warchanter as the secondary tree and is designed for content when you simply don't need your enchant DCs to be incredibly high. This includes lower level EEs and any content dominated by drow (i.e. MotU). I will be using the second option until around level 24.

It is worth noting that there is a lot of room for variation in both options. Both warchanter and spellsinger have a few key enhancements and require a lot of filler to get to them. In spellsinger, the most important enhancements are those that will boost DCs. In warchanter, PRR and doublestrike are the most valuable imo. Beyond these, include whatever filler you prefer. Listed below are exactly what I have taken for each option.

For final calculations further down this post, I will only be including the endgame option.

Spellsinger Secondary Tree Option:
Swashbuckler: 46 total
Core: 6 total
Confidence 1 (1 dodge, reflex, and max dex bonus per core)
Swashbuckling 1 (1 doublestrike, 1 enhancement bonus to weapon, swashbuckling stance)
Uncanny dodge 1 (gain uncanny dodge feat, 1 doublestrike, 1 attack, 1 damage)
Panache 1 (1 doublestrike, 1 attack, 1 damage, 1 enhancement bonus to weapon)
Roll with the punches 1 (5 dodge cap, slippery mind, 1 doublestrike, 1 attack, 1 damage)
Evasive maneuvers 1 (2 dex, 2 cha, evasion, 1 doublestrike, 1 attack, 1 damage, 1 enhancement bonus to weapon)
Tier 1: 5 total
On your toes 3 (3 dodge)
Insults - cutting jibes 2 (-3 will debuff, 12 spell points, 15 second cooldown)
Tier 2: 8 total
Fast movement 2 (30% movement speed)
Doublestrike action boost 6 (30% doublestrike)
Tier 3: 13 total
Elegant footwork 2 (20% chance of knockdown when missed in combat)
Swashbuckling style - skirmisher 1 (10% dodge, swashbuckle with buckler in offhand)
Resonant arms 6 (6d6 sonic on critical)
Different tack - smooth flourishes 2 (cha to damage)
Charisma 2
Tier 4: 3 total
Swashbuckling style II - low blow 1 (shield bash knockdown with perform dc)
Charisma 2
Tier 5: 11 total
Thread the Needle 2 (5 damage with precision)
Second skin 6 (6 reflex, 6 max dex bonus)
Exploit weakness 2 (stacking +1 crit range on non-crit hits until crit hit)
Coup de grace 1 (perform + d20 instakill under certain conditions)

Spellsinger: 31 total
Core: 5 total
Spellsinger 1 (1 spellpower per point spent, each core after this one grants 1 diplo/perform/listen/UMD, 2% sonic/positive spell crit, and 1 enchant/evocation/illusion DC)
Music of the sewers 1 (fascinate oozes)
Music of the dead 1 (fascinate undead)
Music of the makers 1 (fascinate constructs)
Virtuoso 1 (regenerate 1 song every 5 minutes, 2 songs, 20% song duration)
Tier 1: 6 total
Magical studies 3 (100 spell points, magical training - echoes of power and 5% spell crit)
Lingering songs 3 (60% song duration)
Tier 2: 8 total
Sharp note 3 (3 damage for 1 minute with fascinate)
Wand and scroll mastery 3 (+75% effectiveness of scrolls)
Yellow marigold crown 2 (1 enchantment dc)
Tier 3: 6 total
Enthrallment 2 (an improved fascinate)
Spell song trance 2 (1 morale DC, -10% spell cost)
Charisma 2
Tier 4: 6
Sustaining song 2 (fast healing effect)
Song of arcane might 2 (+1 caster level song)
Charisma 2

Human: 3 total
Core: 3 total
Damage boost 1 (20% damage)
Human adaptability charisma 2

Warchanter Secondary Tree Option:
Swashbuckler: 45 total
Core: 6 total
Confidence 1 (1 dodge, reflex, and max dex bonus per core)
Swashbuckling 1 (1 doublestrike, 1 enhancement bonus to weapon, swashbuckling stance)
Uncanny dodge 1 (gain uncanny dodge feat, 1 doublestrike, 1 attack, 1 damage)
Panache 1 (1 doublestrike, 1 attack, 1 damage, 1 enhancement bonus to weapon)
Roll with the punches 1 (5 dodge cap, slippery mind, 1 doublestrike, 1 attack, 1 damage)
Evasive maneuvers 1 (2 dex, 2 cha, evasion, 1 doublestrike, 1 attack, 1 damage, 1 enhancement bonus to weapon)
Tier 1: 4 total
On your toes 3 (3 dodge)
Tavern shanties 1 (1 bard song)
Tier 2: 8 total
Fast movement 2 (30% movement speed)
Doublestrike action boost 6 (30% doublestrike)
Tier 3: 13 total
Elegant footwork 2 (20% chance of knockdown when missed in combat)
Swashbuckling style - skirmisher 1 (10% dodge, swashbuckle with buckler in offhand)
Resonant arms 6 (6d6 sonic on critical)
Different tack - smooth flourishes 2 (cha to damage)
Charisma 2
Tier 4: 3 total
Swashbuckling style II - low blow 1 (shield bash knockdown with perform dc)
Charisma 2
Tier 5: 11 total
Thread the Needle 2 (5 damage with precision)
Second skin 6 (6 reflex, 6 max dex bonus)
Exploit weakness 2 (stacking +1 crit range on non-crit hits until crit hit)
Coup de grace 1 (perform + d20 instakill under certain conditions)

Warchanter: 26 total
Core: 4 total
Skaldic rage or con 1 (4 strength, -4 AC OR +1 con - if you need the extra con pick that one, if not choose str)
Fighting spirit 1 (10 HP, 1 damage with inspire courage)
Song of heroism 1 (greater heroism song to all allies, 1 damage with inspire courage)
Fighting spirit 1 (25 hp, 1 damage with inspire courage)
Tier 1: 5 total
Rough and ready 3 (6 PRR, 6 AC)
Enchant weapon 2
Tier 2: 4 total
Sprint boost 1 (35% run speed)
Iced edges 3 (d6 cold on hit - this is bugged as hell and seems to work only when it wants to)
Tier 3: 8 total
Ironskin chant 3 (6 DR, 6 PRR)
High spirits 3 (immune to crushing despair, waves of fatigue, waves of exhaustion, sleep, fatigue, 15 positive spellpower)
Charisma 2
Tier 4: 5 total
Reckless chant 3 (6 spellpower/doubstrike/doubleshot)
Charisma 2

Spellsinger: 4 total
Core: 1 total
Spellsinger 1 (1 spell power per point spent)
Tier 1: 3 total
Lingering songs 3 (60% song duration)

Human: 5 total
Core: 3 total
Damage boost 1 (20% damage)
Human adaptability charisma 2
Tier 1: 2 total
Improved recovery 2 (10% heal amp)



EDIT: I decided to drop warchanter completely from the first option, as well as 1 rank of insults to spend 6 more points in spellsinger for 1 more DC. This gives the build a standing enchantment DC of 60.

2x4
07-24-2014, 04:07 AM
I'm swashbuckler at level 16. Because I'm a pack rat I had two turbulent epees in my bank. This is a good weapon for me now. I am getting concerned about epic levels. Looking through my bank I found two interesting level 24 axes. I have never used them and I would like to know your thoughts on them. They are the Mountains Fist and the Axe of Adaxus. They both seem to have good crit profiles. Would you suggest one of these as my weapon of choice commencing level 24 and if yes, which one? Or, is there something better? I am not factoring thunder forged as it is level 28.
Thanks for any advice.

CThruTheEgo
07-24-2014, 05:58 AM
I'm swashbuckler at level 16. Because I'm a pack rat I had two turbulent epees in my bank. This is a good weapon for me now. I am getting concerned about epic levels. Looking through my bank I found two interesting level 24 axes. I have never used them and I would like to know your thoughts on them. They are the Mountains Fist and the Axe of Adaxus. They both seem to have good crit profiles. Would you suggest one of these as my weapon of choice commencing level 24 and if yes, which one? Or, is there something better? I am not factoring thunder forged as it is level 28.
Thanks for any advice.

Unless I'm mistaken, you can't use either of those for swashbuckling since you can only swashbuckle with a finesse weapon. If I am wrong, then I'd go with the Axe of Adaxus because it has a higher crit multiplier.

Star of Day, from the Eveningstar cleric commendation turn ins, is a nice option available at level 20. Skullsmasher, from the Crucible, is also a solid choice starting at level 23 with the epic normal version. I believe skullsmasher is the top dps weapon for swashbuckling before Thunderforged.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
07-24-2014, 06:01 AM
I've recently rebuilt my build to essentially be a variant of yours, but I've done the enhancements in this way if it's any help:


Sustaining Song now scales on positive spell power and does a very good job at healing up- Spellsong Trance also adds another DC to your enchantment and makes all your buff and heal costs go down.
I now get 61 to enchant DCs by going into Spellsinger- which you'd hit the same. It's easy to hit higher DC levels on Bard now- but you need to invest in Spellsinger a bit so that's why I decided to pick up Sustaining Song instead of Reckless/Ironskin

I did this too on my swash. Its a very strong synergy, and feel its really needed (oh not needed but wanted - especially if you are used to the healing power of a heal-specced spellsinger).

2x4
07-24-2014, 06:26 AM
Unless I'm mistaken, you can't use either of those for swashbuckling since you can only swashbuckle with a finesse weapon. If I am wrong, then I'd go with the Axe of Adaxus because it has a higher crit multiplier.

Star of Day, from the Eveningstar cleric commendation turn ins, is a nice option available at level 20. Skullsmasher, from the Crucible, is also a solid choice starting at level 23 with the epic normal version. I believe skullsmasher is the top dps weapon for swashbuckling before Thunderforged.

Ok I didn't notice but both of those are Daxes so thanks for noting that for me I could have wasted them as they are BTCE. I checked and I found an EH Skullsmasher in my TR inventory so that is good. I will check out the star of day. On a side note I have an envenomed blade with the turbulent epee. I think they are very close to equal for level 16 to 20. Although turbulent puts out more damage the envenomed blade with good paralyze procs has advantages also. I swap them as I feel, but using turbulent epee the most often. BTW I will be retooling my swashbuckler based on your build thanks for that.

unbongwah
07-24-2014, 08:54 AM
Skullsmasher, from the Crucible, is also a solid choice starting at level 23 with the epic normal version. I believe skullsmasher is the top dps weapon for swashbuckling before Thunderforged.
Skullsmasher and Balizarde (http://ddowiki.com/page/Balizarde) wind up with the same crit profile: 15-20 x4 (assuming IC:Blunt w/former). EE Skullsmasher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Skullsmasher_%28Level_25%29) has higher base dmg (12.25 vs 11.25 per hit on avg), but Balizarde will benefit more from +[W] modifiers from Cleave, GC, Lay Waste, etc. [Not that your build takes them, but others may.] Skullsmasher has Ribcracker, Balizarde can be upgraded with Phlebotomizing. Balizarde has some nice bonuses (Parrying, Dodge, Good Luck), can be part of Planar Conflux set, and is keen so you can skip IC:Pierce if it's your primary weapon; Skullsmasher has Intim +20 which is handy if you're making a Swashbuckling tank.

Overall I think you're right about Skullsmasher having slightly better DPS, but I would prefer Balizarde, at least until I could replicate those bonuses with other gear. Plus Balizarde is ML:23 while EE Skullsmasher is ML:25, so you can use it 2 lvls sooner. [I'm working on some ERs, so the min lvl req is more important to me that it is to someone who just wants to do endgame farming.]

EE Brush Hook (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Forester%27s_Brush_Hook_%28Level_24%29) actually winds up with a better crit profile than either (13-20 x4), but you'd have to take kama prof. to avoid to-hit penalty, its base dmg per hit is only 10.5, and it doesn't have a red augment slot.

CThruTheEgo
07-24-2014, 09:11 AM
Overall I think you're right about Skullsmasher having slightly better DPS, but I would prefer Balizarde, at least until I could replicate those bonuses with other gear.

I would agree with this. DPS wise, Balizarde isn't far behind and offers several other benefits, which is why I favor it. Plus, after taking the time to fully upgrade it, I don't want it to be nothing more than bank filler. :)

I just didn't mention it since I assumed 2x4 wouldn't be looking for an alternative weapon if he had Balizarde already. If I didn't have Balizarde, then I'd probably try to get my hands on a Skullsmasher.

Klixen
07-24-2014, 01:53 PM
I would agree with this. DPS wise, Balizarde isn't far behind and offers several other benefits, which is why I favor it. Plus, after taking the time to fully upgrade it, I don't want it to be nothing more than bank filler. :)

I just didn't mention it since I assumed 2x4 wouldn't be looking for an alternative weapon if he had Balizarde already. If I didn't have Balizarde, then I'd probably try to get my hands on a Skullsmasher.

Interesting. I have been using Star of Day from 20 and a T1 TF rapier from 22 through 25. Don't have a balizarde, should I get a Skullsmasher instead? Have a T3 TF rapier for lvl 26, but may do some ETRs later and it would be handy to know.

CThruTheEgo
07-24-2014, 02:23 PM
Interesting. I have been using Star of Day from 20 and a T1 TF rapier from 22 through 25. Don't have a balizarde, should I get a Skullsmasher instead? Have a T3 TF rapier for lvl 26, but may do some ETRs later and it would be handy to know.

It's the combination of crit profile and ribcracker that really pushes skullsmasher ahead. On the EN version ribcracker adds an average of 60.5 damage on every crit. On the EH/EE versions it's 71.5 damage on every crit. That's in addition to the 15-20x4 crit profile. That's a lot of additional damage considering the number of crits a swashbuckler gets. Star of Day isn't a bad choice and is easier to acquire than Skullsmasher, but Skullsmasher does offer more dps. Thunderforged doesn't really shine until at least tier 2 (the level 26 upgrade) imo.

Klixen
07-24-2014, 02:44 PM
It's the combination of crit profile and ribcracker that really pushes skullsmasher ahead. On the EN version ribcracker adds an average of 60.5 damage on every crit. On the EH/EE versions it's 71.5 damage on every crit. That's in addition to the 15-20x4 crit profile. That's a lot of additional damage considering the number of crits a swashbuckler gets. Star of Day isn't a bad choice and is easier to acquire than Skullsmasher, but Skullsmasher does offer more dps. Thunderforged doesn't really shine until at least tier 2 (the level 26 upgrade) imo.

Thanks - looks like I will be looking out for a skullsmasher, at least until I can get a T3 (mine was T2, not T3 as I wrote) crafted with Mortal Fear.

2x4
07-24-2014, 04:08 PM
I would agree with this. DPS wise, Balizarde isn't far behind and offers several other benefits, which is why I favor it. Plus, after taking the time to fully upgrade it, I don't want it to be nothing more than bank filler. :)

I just didn't mention it since I assumed 2x4 wouldn't be looking for an alternative weapon if he had Balizarde already. If I didn't have Balizarde, then I'd probably try to get my hands on a Skullsmasher.

Exactly right CThru. I don't have a Bellizarde. I have Nightmare and Pinion only from CITW but not on this Toon. I already used my gift box on this Toon for heroism comms. I am just thankful I had that Skullsmasher EH in my TR cash. Don't remember getting it, but durn happy I'm a pack rat on named items.

2x4
07-24-2014, 04:19 PM
In my past life I was SB Pally (Pure) and was lucky to pull a pair of Gauntlets of Imortality [yellow slot, regen 2-4 hp every 15 sec, devotion 120, healing lore 6 - 16%, eternal faith - useless turning buff]. I loved them so much and I am thinking it is a great glove item for a Swashbuckler. Do you agree? Would I be giving up too much for these favorite gauntlets?

Klixen
07-24-2014, 04:43 PM
In my past life I was SB Pally (Pure) and was lucky to pull a pair of Gauntlets of Imortality [yellow slot, regen 2-4 hp every 15 sec, devotion 120, healing lore 6 - 16%, eternal faith - useless turning buff]. I loved them so much and I am thinking it is a great glove item for a Swashbuckler. Do you agree? Would I be giving up too much for these favorite gauntlets?

I have been thinking the exact same. Mitts from 3bc have 30% heal amp on them, but if you don't have devotion elsewhere and you mostly self heal then I would think 120 dev > 30 hamp. Obviously having both would be best.

Klixen
07-24-2014, 04:48 PM
EE Brush Hook (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Forester%27s_Brush_Hook_%28Level_24%29) actually winds up with a better crit profile than either (13-20 x4), but you'd have to take kama prof. to avoid to-hit penalty, its base dmg per hit is only 10.5, and it doesn't have a red augment slot.

I keep hearing that to-hit is almost meaningless at cap even on EE. Is that all that missing proficiency means, and if so, does it matter to be missing it?

CThruTheEgo
07-24-2014, 05:52 PM
I keep hearing that to-hit is almost meaningless at cap even on EE. Is that all that missing proficiency means, and if so, does it matter to be missing it?

With the changes to to-hit, not having proficiency results in an automatic 25% miss chance iirc. So yeah, proficiency is very important.

CThruTheEgo
07-24-2014, 06:02 PM
In my past life I was SB Pally (Pure) and was lucky to pull a pair of Gauntlets of Imortality [yellow slot, regen 2-4 hp every 15 sec, devotion 120, healing lore 6 - 16%, eternal faith - useless turning buff]. I loved them so much and I am thinking it is a great glove item for a Swashbuckler. Do you agree? Would I be giving up too much for these favorite gauntlets?

They are an option. Using them frees up the red slot on whatever weapon you're using, which means you can slot sonic spell power. But losing the Iron Mitts, I would want to slot str and vitality elsewhere. Since the Gauntlets of Immortality come with 2 slots fully upgraded, you can put both in there but you'd lose 2 str (which basically means 1 to-hit) and 20 hp (since you can only slot vitality 20 and the Mitts have vitality 40).

Between quickened cure crit, quickened cure serious, sacred ground, and sustaining song, you probably have enough healing to get by without the heal amp from Iron Mitts. But using the Gauntlets for devotion means losing 18 positive spell power compared to using a red slot. But this is offset by healing lore 16 which has good synergy with the heal over time effects from sacred ground and sustaining song.

I do have the Gauntlets and had considered them as well. I'm still only level 20, though, so I can't say with any certainty which option is better. I will find out when I get there.

2x4
07-24-2014, 06:36 PM
They are an option. Using them frees up the red slot on whatever weapon you're using, which means you can slot sonic spell power. But losing the Iron Mitts, I would want to slot str and vitality elsewhere. Since the Gauntlets of Immortality come with 2 slots fully upgraded, you can put both in there but you'd lose 2 str (which basically means 1 to-hit) and 20 hp (since you can only slot vitality 20 and the Mitts have vitality 40).

Between quickened cure crit, quickened cure serious, sacred ground, and sustaining song, you probably have enough healing to get by without the heal amp from Iron Mitts. But using the Gauntlets for devotion means losing 18 positive spell power compared to using a red slot. But this is offset by healing lore 16 which has good synergy with the heal over time effects from sacred ground and sustaining song.

I do have the Gauntlets and had considered them as well. I'm still only level 20, though, so I can't say with any certainty which option is better. I will find out when I get there.

But how can we give up the regen? I think this is my blind spot after reading your post. I'm being distracted by the shiny? [HP worry]

gwonbush
07-24-2014, 10:42 PM
They are an option. Using them frees up the red slot on whatever weapon you're using, which means you can slot sonic spell power. But losing the Iron Mitts, I would want to slot str and vitality elsewhere. Since the Gauntlets of Immortality come with 2 slots fully upgraded, you can put both in there but you'd lose 2 str (which basically means 1 to-hit) and 20 hp (since you can only slot vitality 20 and the Mitts have vitality 40).

Between quickened cure crit, quickened cure serious, sacred ground, and sustaining song, you probably have enough healing to get by without the heal amp from Iron Mitts. But using the Gauntlets for devotion means losing 18 positive spell power compared to using a red slot. But this is offset by healing lore 16 which has good synergy with the heal over time effects from sacred ground and sustaining song.

I do have the Gauntlets and had considered them as well. I'm still only level 20, though, so I can't say with any certainty which option is better. I will find out when I get there.

From what I can tell from using the Eveningstar Cleric Com ring for the easy 16% crit chance, neither Sacred Ground nor Sustaining Song can crit.

Klixen
07-25-2014, 01:35 AM
With the changes to to-hit, not having proficiency results in an automatic 25% miss chance iirc. So yeah, proficiency is very important.

I don't see where it says 25% automatic miss chance in the formula, rather you are not getting a 25% bonus for being proficient. Formula as described in the changes is (to_hit+10.5)/(monster_ac*2)+25% - if you would hit based on the first part of the formula, the bonus is irrelevant. Unless I am not reading the post correctly. Admittedly, completely untested on my part :)

CThruTheEgo
07-25-2014, 06:14 AM
But how can we give up the regen? I think this is my blind spot after reading your post. I'm being distracted by the shiny? [HP worry]

2-4 hp every 15 seconds is not significant for EE content, especially when you're already going to have sustaining song and sacred ground. For EN/EH content, the regen simply won't be needed.


From what I can tell from using the Eveningstar Cleric Com ring for the easy 16% crit chance, neither Sacred Ground nor Sustaining Song can crit.

Well that's good to know. Thanks for the info gwonbush.

IMO that tips the scales in favor of the Iron Mitts. The primary benefit of the Gauntlets is being able to slot sonic spellpower, which this build does not utilize much. The benefit of sonic spellpower does not outweigh better healing through higher positive spellpower and heal amp imo.


I don't see where it says 25% automatic miss chance in the formula, rather you are not getting a 25% bonus for being proficient. Formula as described in the changes is (to_hit+10.5)/(monster_ac*2)+25% - if you would hit based on the first part of the formula, the bonus is irrelevant. Unless I am not reading the post correctly. Admittedly, completely untested on my part :)

From the wiki (http://ddowiki.com/page/How_to_Hit_Things):

There is a flat 20% bonus to a PC's attack (after the Attack Modifiers and Target's AC generate a percent chance to hit) if you are proficient with your weapon. This is roughly equivalent to a +16 to +20 modifier (or even more!) to your Attack Bonus. Wielding a weapon without proficiency would be very ill advised.

I don't know how high monster AC reaches in the current endgame, so I don't know how easily it would be to overcome that 20% loss.

Klixen
07-25-2014, 07:00 AM
From the wiki (http://ddowiki.com/page/How_to_Hit_Things):

I don't know how high monster AC reaches in the current endgame, so I don't know how easily it would be to overcome that 20% loss.

Thanks for the link. I read the wiki post, but following the link next to the note about 20% bonus on the Non-Proficient page http://m.ddowiki.com/page/Proficient#Non-proficiency_penalties links to a page describing the new combat system https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/377451-Reverse-engineering-the-new-combat-system?p=4512886#post4512886 post #2, second quote block, top part. Here it states 25% bonus if proficient. Maybe the wiki is not updated, or it was changed again later.

Nevertheless, this bonus could equate a substantial to hit number.

SpellSinger
07-26-2014, 10:09 AM
I know there is probably an obvious answer here, but I was wondering for just regular questing before you reach any high end items would it be better to focus on long swords instead of rapiers or short swords? More damage and the slashing seems better vs killing undead which there is a lot of in game. So my question I guess is pierce more beneficial over slash? i.e(improved crit:piercing as taken by op) Thanks for the help! Great build!

Nodoze
07-26-2014, 10:21 AM
I know there is probably an obvious answer here, but I was wondering for just regular questing before you reach any high end items would it be better to focus on long swords instead of rapiers or short swords? More damage and the slashing seems better vs killing undead which there is a lot of in game. So my question I guess is pierce more beneficial over slash? i.e(improved crit:piercing as taken by op) Thanks for the help! Great build!Longswords may have better base damage but worse crit profiles meaning they will crit much less often then rapiers and this is only exacerbated when you get larger and larger crit ranges due to enhancements/destinies. On this build you may be limited to light/finessable weapons or at least a limited set of weapons that work with Swashbuckling/SWF.

CThruTheEgo
07-26-2014, 10:36 AM
I know there is probably an obvious answer here, but I was wondering for just regular questing before you reach any high end items would it be better to focus on long swords instead of rapiers or short swords? More damage and the slashing seems better vs killing undead which there is a lot of in game. So my question I guess is pierce more beneficial over slash? i.e(improved crit:piercing as taken by op) Thanks for the help! Great build!

Yeah you can't swashbuckle with long swords. Plus, all throughout the game there are far better, and more, named short swords and rapiers than long swords.

unbongwah
07-26-2014, 10:44 AM
I know there is probably an obvious answer here, but I was wondering for just regular questing before you reach any high end items would it be better to focus on long swords instead of rapiers or short swords? More damage and the slashing seems better vs killing undead which there is a lot of in game. So my question I guess is pierce more beneficial over slash? i.e(improved crit:piercing as taken by op)
As stated, longswords aren't Finesseable and therefore don't benefit from Swashbuckling. Kukris or sickles are a reasonable alternative for zombies; likewise light maces for skeletons. I think a decent case could be made for sickles, at least for leveling purposes: apart from the three I list here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443235-The-Count-of-Monte-Cristo-dps-CC-survivability-focused-pure-swashbuckler?p=5368470&viewfull=1#post5368470), there's also the new one in e3BC.

SpellSinger
07-26-2014, 10:12 PM
I've noticed a lot of these weapons have red slots in them. What would you suggest putting in these slots for this build?

CThruTheEgo
07-27-2014, 12:35 AM
I've noticed a lot of these weapons have red slots in them. What would you suggest putting in these slots for this build?

Positive spell power if you don't have it slotted elsewhere. There are other slots to put it in, but I am currently only level 21, so I can't say for certain how beneficial some of those options are. With Thunderforged, it could be argued that the Planar Focus loses a great deal of value and could be swapped with a Shamanic Fetish which offers devotion in the trinket slot. I think that might be ideal but, like I said, I'm only level 21 currently.

If you do end up getting devotion somewhere else, then I'd slot one of the dps augments such the ruby of endless night (which has great synergy with PSWF) or the meteoric star ruby. The star ruby would be an excellent choice for a fully upgraded Thunderforged since it scales with weapon level.

gwonbush
07-28-2014, 01:32 AM
Another option is a Ruby of Resonance, which also counts as a powerful DPS augment in the hands of a Swashbuckler (and is a lot easier to get). On a Thunderforged weapon, a simple Resonance 114 augment is worth around 13 sonic damage a hit (15 in Divine Crusader). This includes the bonus from turning the weapon into a Spellcasting Implement, adding a total of 150-160 sonic spellpower and 36-45 universal spellpower, depending on the tier of the TF weapon.

Comparatively, a Meteoric Star Ruby is only around 8 damage a hit on a T3 TF weapon, though it hits in an AOE and can CC.

LotM
07-28-2014, 02:58 PM
To-hit with Charisma, human bonus stuff, why not a PDK?

CThruTheEgo
07-28-2014, 04:03 PM
Another option is a Ruby of Resonance, which also counts as a powerful DPS augment in the hands of a Swashbuckler (and is a lot easier to get). On a Thunderforged weapon, a simple Resonance 114 augment is worth around 13 sonic damage a hit (15 in Divine Crusader). This includes the bonus from turning the weapon into a Spellcasting Implement, adding a total of 150-160 sonic spellpower and 36-45 universal spellpower, depending on the tier of the TF weapon.

Comparatively, a Meteoric Star Ruby is only around 8 damage a hit on a T3 TF weapon, though it hits in an AOE and can CC.

I never bothered to do the math to see the damage boost that sonic spell power would offer, but you are absolutely right. Thanks gwonbush. So yeah, if positive spell power is slotted elsewhere, I'd favor sonic spell power in the red slot.


To-hit with Charisma, human bonus stuff, why not a PDK?

It's certainly a viable option. You are limited to shortswords, though. That doesn't matter at all for Thunderforged weapons, but it will with CitW weapons. Celestia is a good alternative to Balizarde. I haven't done any dps calcs to compare the two, but I would guess they are probably very similar dps wise. Celestia has more proc effects and fiery detonation benefits from perfect single weapon fighting (maybe, it says proc on 20, not vorpal, so it's not clear). While Balizarde has a superior crit profile and more defensive benefits. If you have any intention of using fascinate, thought, Celestia is definitely not a good choice because of its AoE procs.

Also, I enjoy leveling, so I'm not a fan of iconics. Nor do I want to play an orc with a human face. These are just my personal preferences.

Gabrielmuller
07-30-2014, 09:04 AM
Congratulations CthruTheEgo, really nice build. The new bard is awesome.

There are rumors that development team is working to change the bard again. Anyone knows when will be the next update in the bard?

Ty
Gabriel

CThruTheEgo
07-30-2014, 11:49 AM
Congratulations CthruTheEgo, really nice build. The new bard is awesome.

There are rumors that development team is working to change the bard again. Anyone knows when will be the next update in the bard?

Ty
Gabriel

Thanks. Glad you like the build.

I haven't heard about any bard changes specifically. If anyone has any accurate info, please link it. I'd certainly be interested to know.

I do know that dev Severlin has stated in the armor threads that SWF and the shield mastery feats were not intended to be taken together and that this will be fixed with the armor changes. If that actually happens, I don't think it's a majpr change. And the response seems simple enough to me – take maximize and empower to pick up some spell dps options and better (though still minor) group healing potential (from MCLW and MCMW and possibly the MCMW SLA from exalted angel). I think that's probably what I will do if we lose the shield mastery feats.

nivarch
07-30-2014, 02:14 PM
Thanks. Glad you like the build.

I haven't heard about any bard changes specifically. If anyone has any accurate info, please link it. I'd certainly be interested to know.

I do know that dev Severlin has stated in the armor threads that SWF and the shield mastery feats were not intended to be taken together and that this will be fixed with the armor changes. If that actually happens, I don't think it's a majpr change. And the response seems simple enough to me – take maximize and empower to pick up some spell dps options and better (though still minor) group healing potential (from MCLW and MCMW and possibly the MCMW SLA from exalted angel). I think that's probably what I will do if we lose the shield mastery feats.

If nothing changes compared to current proposal:
- OC will be an option. And it would clearly be my favorite choice. It is around the same DPS as the 2 shield feats currently are (probably slightly less than the 2 feats)
- Therefore there would be only 1 feat slot available. Many options: Maximize to boost sonic DPS if you have spellsinger SLAs, Empower healing to increase healing potential, or greater spell focus enchantment to increase CC. It depends on build and playstyle… and ED
- The addition of melee power will be a huge change to swash DPS, and probably make them OP… The decent defenses and the versatility of the swash, combined with a 150% increase in offence, seems just too much…

mikarddo
07-30-2014, 02:44 PM
Would Bladeforged be a bad choice?

CThruTheEgo
07-30-2014, 03:38 PM
OC will be an option. And it would clearly be my favorite choice. It is around the same DPS as the 2 shield feats currently are (probably slightly less than the 2 feats)

Is removing the 3 feat requirement of power attack, cleave, and great cleave part of the proposed changes? Admittedly, I have only read the first post of the armor changes, so I haven't followed the full discussion. If the feat pre-reqs are removed, then this does present an interesting alternative. If they have not been removed, then I won't be taking overwhelming crit on this build since I don't take any of the pre-reqs.

unbongwah
07-30-2014, 03:45 PM
Would Bladeforged be a bad choice?
Making a BF pure bard requires:

Leveling to 15 as pal 1 / ??? 14 (not monk)
LR +1 to get rid of pal lvl
Alignment change to something "bard compatible"
LR +5 x3 to switch to bard (or LR +20 once if you still have that)


So it boils down to: how much are you willing to spend to get Reconstruct SLA?

CThruTheEgo
07-30-2014, 04:36 PM
Would Bladeforged be a bad choice?

Unbongwah summed it up. A bladeforged bard is most certainly a P2W option. It would be very powerful, but it's not going to be a common build because of the heavy monetary investment required.

Nodoze
07-30-2014, 05:22 PM
Would Bladeforged be a bad choice?Making a BF pure bard requires:

Leveling to 15 as pal 1 / ??? 14 (not monk)
LR +1 to get rid of pal lvl
Alignment change to something "bard compatible"
LR +5 x3 to switch to bard (or LR +20 once if you still have that)


So it boils down to: how much are you willing to spend to get Reconstruct SLA?
Unbongwah summed it up. A bladeforged bard is most certainly a P2W option. It would be very powerful, but it's not going to be a common build because of the heavy monetary investment required.Sounds fairly doable if you have a character who is TRing and still has a LR+20 (most of my characters still have them) as then you are only needing a LR+1 and an Alignment Change.

That being said, while I love the Reconstruct SLA on builds that don't have other strong self healing, I am not sure the trade-offs would be worth it considering this build already has access to Quickened CCW, CSW, MCMW, Sacred Ground, etc with 269 positive spell power and 157% heal amp (which could still go higher instead of the -50% racial BF Penalty).

If you really wanted to do a BF, starting at 15 is especially nice on a 36 pointer and if you really wanted to jump into end game right away one could Heroic Stone directly from 15 to 20 (even on a 3rd+ life) and then Epic Stone directly to 25... Not that I necessarily recommend that...

CThruTheEgo
07-31-2014, 07:24 AM
That being said, while I love the Reconstruct SLA on builds that don't have other strong self healing, I am not sure the trade-offs would be worth it considering this build already has access to Quickened CCW, CSW, MCMW, Sacred Ground, etc with 269 positive spell power and 157% heal amp (which could still go higher instead of the -50% racial BF Penalty).

I agree. The gain in self healing on a bladeforged isn't worth the cost on a build with sufficient self healing already, like a pure bard. Bladeforged would be much more suited for a 12fighter/5-7bard/1-3FvS or cleric max str type build.

mikarddo
07-31-2014, 08:04 AM
I agree. The gain in self healing on a bladeforged isn't worth the cost on a build with sufficient self healing already, like a pure bard. Bladeforged would be much more suited for a 12fighter/5-7bard/1-3FvS or cleric max str type build.

Thanks, I do have the +20 LR if I wanted to do this - but I see your points in why it would not be worthwhile. I assumed as much but clarification is always good.

Nodoze
07-31-2014, 02:21 PM
Thanks, I do have the +20 LR if I wanted to do this - but I see your points in why it would not be worthwhile. I assumed as much but clarification is always good.Thanks and I wanted to let you know that I though it was a unique and good question.

I haven't studied this build much but generally speaking if any build was tight on feats and/or spell slots and/or ED points and/or other-things and only used quicken for self healing then a move to BF with their SLA could free up a feat/spell-slots/EDpoints/etc for use elsewhere... If one wasn't going to be healing others in the party and was comfortable with the SLA as replacement self healing then it could actually be a power-play if it frees up feats/points/etc for things like DPS or CC elsewhere...

Regardless it would be interesting and unique and I doubt people would be expecting a BF to heal others if that is something you don't want to do... I like the looks of BladeForged & their immunities and love their uninterruptible SLA so even if there isn't a power play in there somewhere it maybe could be a good flavor option or something to do just to be unique/different than all the other bards out there...

Thanks again for the question as it was a good one to think through.

hi_sa1nt
08-02-2014, 06:41 PM
So... now knowing the Tiller has a secret green aug, what would you slot in it if you were to use it?

I use the Epic Swash with Balizarde and the Tiller when using my TF rapier. I personally slotted PRR in the Tiller, so when I switch to my TF rapier, I wont be losing as much PRR from losing the prowess set bonus.

CThruTheEgo
08-03-2014, 02:01 AM
So... now knowing the Tiller has a secret green aug, what would you slot in it if you were to use it?

I use the Epic Swash with Balizarde and the Tiller when using my TF rapier. I personally slotted PRR in the Tiller, so when I switch to my TF rapier, I wont be losing as much PRR from losing the prowess set bonus.

With the gear set listed in the OP, I wouldn't bother putting anything in it. The Epic Swashbuckler has a blue slot and I don't have anything planned for it. If using the listed gear, the only augments even remotely useful that aren't accounted for elsewhere, would be something like poison/disease resistance or underwater action, and I just don't see much point in slotting those.

If you're not following the listed gear, or don't have it yet, then I'd choose an augment based on my current gear setup. PRR is definitely worth having. In fact, I wouldn't put it in the shield to make up for losing the planar prowess set bonus, I'd have it slotted somewhere permanently so that I could get both the augment and the set bonus when using a CitW weapon. Good luck is a good option for a swappable augment imo. It's something that is nice to have on all the time but not vital. But again, it really depends on the rest of your gear.

Weaver2012
08-03-2014, 12:22 PM
I noticed your build had 36-point Implement Bonus to Spell Power, however none of your equipped items is a spellcasting implement to my knowledge. Could you kindly clear this up for me?

gwonbush
08-03-2014, 12:38 PM
I noticed your build had 36-point Implement Bonus to Spell Power, however none of your equipped items is a spellcasting implement to my knowledge. Could you kindly clear this up for me?

At a guess, he's using Balizarde slotted with Devotion to turn it into a spellcasting implement. With Enchant Weapons and the Swashbuckler enhancements, Balizarde counts as a +12 weapon. If you use a Thunderforged weapon, switch out the Planar Focus for a Shamanic Fetish, slot Resonance in the weapon.

hi_sa1nt
08-03-2014, 01:45 PM
At a guess, he's using Balizarde slotted with Devotion to turn it into a spellcasting implement. With Enchant Weapons and the Swashbuckler enhancements, Balizarde counts as a +12 weapon. If you use a Thunderforged weapon, switch out the Planar Focus for a Shamanic Fetish, slot Resonance in the weapon.

That is a very good idea. Forgot about my Shemanic Fetish... should bust it out again.

Then wouldn't making a 2 slot TF weapon with Mortal Fear at top tier and using Meteoric Ruby + Resonance be the way to go? No cost sp knock down + Coupe de Grace + more free CC?

gwonbush
08-03-2014, 02:00 PM
That is a very good idea. Forgot about my Shemanic Fetish... should bust it out again.

Then wouldn't making a 2 slot TF weapon with Mortal Fear at top tier and using Meteoric Ruby + Resonance be the way to go? No cost sp knock down + Coupe de Grace + more free CC?

For DPS, Dragon's Edge is the better bet (around 30 damage a hit, as well as the very useful 35% fort bypass), while for CC, Paralyzing Fear would be preferable.

Weaver2012
08-03-2014, 02:43 PM
At a guess, he's using Balizarde slotted with Devotion to turn it into a spellcasting implement. With Enchant Weapons and the Swashbuckler enhancements, Balizarde counts as a +12 weapon. If you use a Thunderforged weapon, switch out the Planar Focus for a Shamanic Fetish, slot Resonance in the weapon.

Thank you. I was unaware that slotting an item with a spellpower ruby turned it into a spellcasting implement. Good to know.

Thanks.

CThruTheEgo
08-03-2014, 05:55 PM
I noticed your build had 36-point Implement Bonus to Spell Power, however none of your equipped items is a spellcasting implement to my knowledge. Could you kindly clear this up for me?

Gwonbush is exactly right. It's actually only a 33 implement bonus though. It was 36 when I had enchant weapons, but with the changes to spellsinger/warchanter, I dropped all points from warchanter and lost enchant weapons.

I would agree with gwonbush regarding the weapon/trinket combinations as well, including how to craft the Thunderforged weapon. The fort bypass is very valuable on a build with as much crit potential as this one. I wouldn't bother with paralyzing fear on this build since it has plenty of CC options elsewhere, but I will say that anything that procs only a percent of the time will see more procs on a build with a high attack rate (from SWF) and doublestrike, so paralyzing fear would be a nice option for another SWF build with less CC potential.

Myznar
08-06-2014, 12:17 PM
I´m now at lvl 16 and still enjoying a lot the build.

Still have some issues with weapons, I found a +1 wounding rapier of pucturing, and it seems to kill mobs fasters than others weapons like the envenomed blade. Its that ok, or I did something wrong?

CThruTheEgo
08-06-2014, 01:57 PM
I´m now at lvl 16 and still enjoying a lot the build.

Still have some issues with weapons, I found a +1 wounding rapier of pucturing, and it seems to kill mobs fasters than others weapons like the envenomed blade. Its that ok, or I did something wrong?

Wounding of puncturing is a good choice for that level range. You will want to go with something else once you get to epics though, since EH/EE mobs are resistant to stat damage.

Hasacz
08-07-2014, 12:00 PM
Hi,

I've just hit lvl 3 on my new toon using this build, and I noticed that when I equip buckler(using swashbuckling stance) i lose my single weapon fighting premiums. Is there something I am doing wrong, or devs already nerfed this build?

CThruTheEgo
08-07-2014, 12:11 PM
Hi,

I've just hit lvl 3 on my new toon using this build, and I noticed that when I equip buckler(using swashbuckling stance) i lose my single weapon fighting premiums. Is there something I am doing wrong, or devs already nerfed this build?

The tier 3 swashbuckler enhancement, swashbuckling style - skirmisher, allows you to gain the benefits of SWF with a buckler in the offhand. Without that enhancement, you do not gain the benefits of SWF. Do you have this enhancement?

Hasacz
08-07-2014, 03:21 PM
The tier 3 swashbuckler enhancement, swashbuckling style - skirmisher, allows you to gain the benefits of SWF with a buckler in the offhand. Without that enhancement, you do not gain the benefits of SWF. Do you have this enhancement?

Havent got this enh yet, now aiming for it. Thanks for the response.

CThruTheEgo
08-07-2014, 06:12 PM
Havent got this enh yet, now aiming for it. Thanks for the response.

No problem. I'm glad it was an easy fix and not a bug. :)

hi_sa1nt
08-10-2014, 11:37 PM
Is taking perfect SWF worth it?

I took it, but it seems to me that a vorpal on 19-20 on epic levels... isn't worth it. It's not improved vorpal... and 1k mobs die quick anyway.

CThruTheEgo
08-11-2014, 12:27 AM
Is taking perfect SWF worth it?

I took it, but it seems to me that a vorpal on 19-20 on epic levels... isn't worth it. It's not improved vorpal... and 1k mobs die quick anyway.

It doesn't give you the vorpal property. It just means anything with a vorpal proc will do so on a roll of 19-20 instead of just 20. So manslayer, thunderstruck, reign, vorpal property on a weapon, etc.

I'm actually going to drop it. The only effect I currently have that benefits from it is thunderstruck which means PSWF grants me about an average of 5 extra points of damage per hit. If you're using multiple pieces of gear with vorpal effects and/or have reign twisted as well, then I'd say it's worth it. But not for just one effect.

I'm going to take lasting inspiration instead. Some songs are shorter than I'd prefer and since they take time to sing, it is annoying to keep them up.

hi_sa1nt
08-11-2014, 12:53 AM
It doesn't give you the vorpal property. It just means anything with a vorpal proc will do so on a roll of 19-20 instead of just 20. So manslayer, thunderstruck, reign, vorpal property on a weapon, etc.

I'm actually going to drop it. The only effect I currently have that benefits from it is thunderstruck which means PSWF grants me about an average of 5 extra points of damage per hit. If you're using multiple pieces of gear with vorpal effects and/or have reign twisted as well, then I'd say it's worth it. But not for just one effect.

I'm going to take lasting inspiration instead. Some songs are shorter than I'd prefer and since they take time to sing, it is annoying to keep them up.

That's what I was leaning towards, but wanted to try out PSWF... I'll keep you posted. I'm almost level 27 and it's a blast. Might be changing some of the end gear around.... I just wish I could slot Enchantment Focus V instead of using Sage's Mantle... could always go the orb route and use an EE Nether Orb... which loses the 10% dodge from Swash.

Lol... also ended up not putting any points in my racial trees... the others are just too good to not put points into.

CThruTheEgo
08-11-2014, 09:11 AM
Currently level 26 and the build is awesome. It assassinates better than my assassin (side note - you can use coup de grace with a scroll in hand, assassinate just goes on timer but has no effect). DPS is top notch. Survivability is excellent. Sacred ground provides excellent healing for both the group and myself. I've tanked a lot more than I would have expected on this build. It steals and holds agro easily so I tend to find myself in a position to tank anyway, and the self healing and survivability are sufficient for some tanking roles. The most fun was Sully in an at level elite streak VoD. It's certainly not an ideal tank but can perform in a pinch. With the potential for tanking, if I had the build to do over again, I'd take the points from diplo and bluff and put them into intim. I made note of this in the OP.

Updated the OP.

Dropped perfect swf for lasting inspiration for reasons discussed two posts above.

I made note of the different gear setups with Balizarde and Thunderforged. With Balizarde, devotion is slotted in the red slot and Planar Focus is worn. With Thunderforged, sonic is slotted in the red slot and EE Shamanic Fetish is worn. Losing Balizarde/Planar Focus means losing 4 insight saves and 3 insightful con. The saves can't be made up but insightful con 2 can be slotted in the Thunderforged colorless slot and the second rank of cutting jibes can be dropped to pick up skaldic con, resulting in the same con. With Thunderforged you lose a total of 6 positive spell power but gain a total of 150 sonic spell power for an average gain of about 15 additional sonic damage per crit from resonant arms.

I also swapped the Epic Swashbuckler for the Kobold Admiral's Tiller. This is necessary to keep dodge maxed when making the switch from Balizarde to Thunderforged. Slotting insightful dex 2 in the Tiller's colorless slot results in the same dex.

Also added proof against poison 10 in the Tiller's hidden green slot and proof against disease 10 in the EE Shamanic Fetish's green slot because there's nothing else worth slotting. Underwater action is the only thing I'm missing, lol.

Vinven
08-11-2014, 06:48 PM
I've recently made a halfling swashbuckler bard, following this build. I've been enjoying it, though too often I find myself remiss about the lack of ability to disarm traps.


Might there be a means to add disable device to my repertoire without altering the build greatly?

Feithlin
08-11-2014, 08:28 PM
I've recently made a halfling swashbuckler bard, following this build. I've been enjoying it, though too often I find myself remiss about the lack of ability to disarm traps.


Might there be a means to add disable device to my repertoire without altering the build greatly?

If you want to disable traps, you'll need at least 2 Rogue levels to make up for the loss of evasion from capstone. Since you won't go for capstone, you may as well splash a bit more to include divine might. My recommendation would be to go for Bd16/Ro2/FvS2 (preferably human). However, since you already have your character, I would recommend not to change it in the middle of your leveling: a good rule of thumb is to plan your multiclassing before running the character. Just take some time to see how to bypass traps without disarming them.

CThruTheEgo
08-12-2014, 06:04 AM
I've recently made a halfling swashbuckler bard, following this build. I've been enjoying it, though too often I find myself remiss about the lack of ability to disarm traps.


Might there be a means to add disable device to my repertoire without altering the build greatly?

I'd have to agree with Feithlin, if you haven't planned your multiclass in advance, then don't do it this life. Now if you have at least an LR +1, then you could use that. For trapping you want to take rogue at level 1 to get more skill points. And you would want at least 2 rogue to make up for losing evasion from the capstone. The main things you lose by splashing are 1 DC (2 cha) and a bit of damage from the capstone, and some duration to your spells and songs. If you splash more than 2 levels, then you also lose the fifth core - a bit more damage and slippery mind.

So yeah, it's certainly an option to splash for trapping on this build, but it does need to be planned out in advance. I'd go 18bard/2rogue personally. That will minimize your loss in dps and allow you keep slippery mind. Divine might won't do much for this build since it uses cha for damage. All it does is add to your to-hit. 2 fighter is an option if you want more feats, but compare the value of those feats to what is lost by having less bard levels to determine if it's worth it to you. I know there are some trap capable swashbuckler builds around here. You could take a look at some of those to give yourself some ideas.

Hope that helps.

Vinven
08-13-2014, 05:44 PM
Hope that helps.

You've been of great help. I've ran into many others that are using this build of yours, so thanks for all the work put into it. :D

I think I'll stay pure for this life at least. I just hate looking at traps and being unable to disarm them like I normally can on my rogue.

Therigar
08-18-2014, 04:34 AM
A lot of pages and I probably missed this someplace but....

First, a well designed build. My pure bard is somewhat similar and my completionist is a Shadar-kai with the 2 rogue splash. Both are similar in concept, if not in execution, to your build.

Second, I dropped IC:pierce from my feats. It seems almost redundant with Exploit Weakness and is absolutely redundant with Balizarde which is keen already. I took Empower Healing instead (although a more spell focused character like yours could choose other supporting feats). I don't have a Thunderforged weapon but I wonder if the increased crit rate would really be necessary.

Nonetheless, a well designed build that should see lots of clones.

Maelodic
08-18-2014, 06:24 AM
A lot of pages and I probably missed this someplace but....

First, a well designed build. My pure bard is somewhat similar and my completionist is a Shadar-kai with the 2 rogue splash. Both are similar in concept, if not in execution, to your build.

Second, I dropped IC:pierce from my feats. It seems almost redundant with Exploit Weakness and is absolutely redundant with Balizarde which is keen already. I took Empower Healing instead (although a more spell focused character like yours could choose other supporting feats). I don't have a Thunderforged weapon but I wonder if the increased crit rate would really be necessary.

Nonetheless, a well designed build that should see lots of clones.

Improved Critical actually enhances Exploit Weakness quite a bit- instead of providing an extra 5% to crit per hit, it provide an extra 10%.
Improved Critical is not required if you're using Balizarde, but I would say it is absolutely required if you're using Thunderforged and one could argue that because of Exploit Weakness, IC is one of your best damage feats. If you want to drop something, drop the shield feats first.

CThruTheEgo
08-18-2014, 09:06 AM
A lot of pages and I probably missed this someplace but....

First, a well designed build. My pure bard is somewhat similar and my completionist is a Shadar-kai with the 2 rogue splash. Both are similar in concept, if not in execution, to your build.

Second, I dropped IC:pierce from my feats. It seems almost redundant with Exploit Weakness and is absolutely redundant with Balizarde which is keen already. I took Empower Healing instead (although a more spell focused character like yours could choose other supporting feats). I don't have a Thunderforged weapon but I wonder if the increased crit rate would really be necessary.

Nonetheless, a well designed build that should see lots of clones.

Thanks. Glad you like the build.

I'd have to agree with Maelodic. Imp crit applies to exploit weakness as well, so each stack grants an additional 10% crit chance. That alone is well worth a feat slot imo. Also, many of the best effects from Thunderforged proc on crit, so imp crit is a significant dps boost if using Thunderforged.

Side note, one of these days I'm going to do a dps comparison between Balizarde and Thunderforged on this build. I'm just curious how close or far apart they actually are.

Personally, I don't find empower heal needed at all. My quickened cure crit hits me for about 200. Sacred ground hits me for about 150 per tick. Those two together provide plenty of healing for me. And if I'm really low on HP and need more quickly, I've got cure serious as a backup. That's all I've ever really needed. I've even ended up tanking before and am able to keep myself up with just sacred ground and cure crit wounds.

I would also agree with Maelodic that dropping one or both of the shield mastery feats is a better option than imp crit if you want to fit in other feats.

Therigar
08-18-2014, 10:53 AM
I completely understand/understood that IC provided the extra crit range and that this works/worked in conjunction with EW.

What I was wondering is whether it is actually necessary for Thunderforged.

I have, thru the years, observed that characters often do a lot of excess damage. Raw numbers tell me that IC increases the number of crits N times in an attack sequence. But, if the mob is not alive the extra crits that proc in that sequence are meaningless.

So my question/observation is that perhaps having the additional crit range isn't actually needed once we move a discussion from theoretical damage outputs to actual in-game combats. It is a speculation that I've made before and just wondered if you have practical experience at this point arguing for taking IC rather than just the theoretical notion that doing so will produce more crits.

I am currently running two bards. One is L21 and was built to be my haggle character. While not geared well at all he seems to do extremely well without the IC feat running. Empower Healing became a necessity for me because he tended to get aggro but lacked the defenses to prevent damage. The added healing makes a noticeable difference in his survivability.

The other is my completionist which I quick leveled as a Shadar-kai using the recent Otto's boxes to L25. Using Balizarde he does so much damage that almost no party member can get or hold aggro. Similar to the first character, he suffers greatly from weak defenses exacerbated by being restricted to light armor and buckler -- greatly inhibiting his PRR. To compensate I run him in Unyielding Sentinel and am hitting 100+ AC, 28% dodge, 50% displacement. Yet he still gets hit hard and the extra healing from Empower Healing I am finding to be almost necessary.

So, either I'm doing something horribly wrong or there is something significantly different in your experience that I'm missing. Keeping in mind that your gear set up may be near optimal, from a practical standpoint I don't see how your healing is sufficient. Maybe it is the Sacred Ground?

Therigar
08-18-2014, 11:07 AM
IC is one of your best damage feats. If you want to drop something, drop the shield feats first.

Well, dropping the shield feats may become necessary if the update removes the increased combat power from bucklers or otherwise affects their rather limited PRR benefits. But, I view this perspective as somewhat of a continued endorsement of glass cannon type builds.

Keep in mind that I am an advocate for the game working so that every aspect is functional and meaningful at end game. AC and PRR should mean something even in EE and it should not be so meaningless that it is trumped by dodge, concealment and incorporeal values.

What it sounds like, to me, is that the mindset remains to simply build for maximum DPS and to just hold on and hope when it comes to damage avoidance and mitigation. That, IMO, is one of the weakest aspects of DDO -- fed by players wanting to kill stuff (and being able to do so) and complicated by the developers giving mobs extraordinarily high HP totals along with insane CR ratings in order to reduce player ability to kill. But the result of this badly skewed mechanic is that defenses are rendered moot. So players build only for dodge, concealment or incorporeal factors.

It could be that this built in game imbalance argues forcefully for IC because in practical game play the added AC/PRR from the shield mastery feats is insufficient to produce noticeable effects. But, I would argue that it ought not to be that way and my question would be whether, from practical in-game experience, the added damage is really necessary.

CThruTheEgo
08-18-2014, 02:19 PM
I have, thru the years, observed that characters often do a lot of excess damage. Raw numbers tell me that IC increases the number of crits N times in an attack sequence. But, if the mob is not alive the extra crits that proc in that sequence are meaningless.

So my question/observation is that perhaps having the additional crit range isn't actually needed once we move a discussion from theoretical damage outputs to actual in-game combats. It is a speculation that I've made before and just wondered if you have practical experience at this point arguing for taking IC rather than just the theoretical notion that doing so will produce more crits.

Trash mobs in EE have thousands of HP. In higher level EEs, they often have well over 10k. Boss mobs, including orange named, have tens and even hundreds of thousands of HP. There is plenty of time for extra crits to proc when fighting mobs with that many hit points. And they are all capable of inflicting serious damage upon our characters, so the faster they die, the more likely we are to succeed. That's my practical experience.

Your speculation may be accurate for most heroics, as well as some lower level EEs. But at those levels, added defense isn't going to amount to much since enemies don't do that much damage, so higher dps is still the ideal tactic since that will simply allow you to complete more quickly.


I am currently running two bards. One is L21 and was built to be my haggle character. While not geared well at all he seems to do extremely well without the IC feat running. Empower Healing became a necessity for me because he tended to get aggro but lacked the defenses to prevent damage. The added healing makes a noticeable difference in his survivability.

The other is my completionist which I quick leveled as a Shadar-kai using the recent Otto's boxes to L25. Using Balizarde he does so much damage that almost no party member can get or hold aggro. Similar to the first character, he suffers greatly from weak defenses exacerbated by being restricted to light armor and buckler -- greatly inhibiting his PRR. To compensate I run him in Unyielding Sentinel and am hitting 100+ AC, 28% dodge, 50% displacement. Yet he still gets hit hard and the extra healing from Empower Healing I am finding to be almost necessary.

So, either I'm doing something horribly wrong or there is something significantly different in your experience that I'm missing. Keeping in mind that your gear set up may be near optimal, from a practical standpoint I don't see how your healing is sufficient. Maybe it is the Sacred Ground?

Sacred ground provides exceptional healing. For 15 out of every 20 seconds I get healed 150+ HP every 3 seconds, and that applies to all those around me as well. If you're not using sacred ground because you're not running in divine crusader, then I can see more of a need for empower healing. Divine crusader also offers a lot more than just great healing though. It's a great dps tree and debuffs mobs as well, which is good for survival of the whole group.

Without knowing specifics about your build, I can't offer any suggestions for improvement. I will say that you can still get significant PRR in light armor and a buckler though, and that I wouldn't be worrying about AC as a form of defense, at least not for EE. You might want to try divine crusader and see how it works for you. You may find you don't need empower heal as much as before and can easily afford imp crit.


Well, dropping the shield feats may become necessary if the update removes the increased combat power from bucklers or otherwise affects their rather limited PRR benefits. But, I view this perspective as somewhat of a continued endorsement of glass cannon type builds.

Again, without knowing more about your specific builds, I can't comment on those, but I can say with certainty that this build is not a glass cannon at all. As I said before, I've often found myself in tanking situations and handle them just fine. You can see for yourself exactly what my defenses are and where they are all coming from, that's why I provide such detailed breakdowns in the OP. If I end up having to drop the shield mastery feats because of the update, I won't be losing that much defense. I actually took the shield mastery feats more for the dps they offer, the defensive qualities were just a bonus.


Keep in mind that I am an advocate for the game working so that every aspect is functional and meaningful at end game. AC and PRR should mean something even in EE and it should not be so meaningless that it is trumped by dodge, concealment and incorporeal values.

What it sounds like, to me, is that the mindset remains to simply build for maximum DPS and to just hold on and hope when it comes to damage avoidance and mitigation. That, IMO, is one of the weakest aspects of DDO -- fed by players wanting to kill stuff (and being able to do so) and complicated by the developers giving mobs extraordinarily high HP totals along with insane CR ratings in order to reduce player ability to kill. But the result of this badly skewed mechanic is that defenses are rendered moot. So players build only for dodge, concealment or incorporeal factors.

It could be that this built in game imbalance argues forcefully for IC because in practical game play the added AC/PRR from the shield mastery feats is insufficient to produce noticeable effects. But, I would argue that it ought not to be that way and my question would be whether, from practical in-game experience, the added damage is really necessary.

I recently read a post of yours in another thread where you said you didn't get into discussions about game mechanics and how to fix them. I am the same way. I tend to just accept the game as it is and let others worry about how to change it. So I don't know if you're right that defense should be more about AC/PRR. But I do know that the reality of the current game is that AC is meaningless, damage avoidance is king, and damage mitigation is useful for dealing with the spike damage you receive when damage avoidance fails. And as I said earlier, mobs hit so hard that the faster they die, the safer you are. So as long as you've got a base level of defense, regardless of how you achieve it, maxing dps is priority. That's my opinion anyway, and it is formed from much experience in upper level EE content.

Nodoze
08-18-2014, 02:50 PM
Trash mobs in EE have thousands of HP. In higher level EEs, they often have well over 10k. Boss mobs, including orange named, have tens and even hundreds of thousands of HP. There is plenty of time for extra crits to proc when fighting mobs with that many hit points. And they are all capable of inflicting serious damage upon our characters, so the faster they die, the more likely we are to succeed. That's my practical experience.

Your speculation may be accurate for most heroics, as well as some lower level EEs. But at those levels, added defense isn't going to amount to much since enemies don't do that much damage, so higher dps is still the ideal tactic since that will simply allow you to complete more quickly.

Sacred ground provides exceptional healing. For 15 out of every 20 seconds I get healed 150+ HP every 3 seconds, and that applies to all those around me as well. If you're not using sacred ground because you're not running in divine crusader, then I can see more of a need for empower healing. Divine crusader also offers a lot more than just great healing though. It's a great dps tree and debuffs mobs as well, which is good for survival of the whole group.

Without knowing specifics about your build, I can't offer any suggestions for improvement. I will say that you can still get significant PRR in light armor and a buckler though, and that I wouldn't be worrying about AC as a form of defense, at least not for EE. You might want to try divine crusader and see how it works for you. You may find you don't need empower heal as much as before and can easily afford imp crit.

Again, without knowing more about your specific builds, I can't comment on those, but I can say with certainty that this build is not a glass cannon at all. As I said before, I've often found myself in tanking situations and handle them just fine. You can see for yourself exactly what my defenses are and where they are all coming from, that's why I provide such detailed breakdowns in the OP. If I end up having to drop the shield mastery feats because of the update, I won't be losing that much defense. I actually took the shield mastery feats more for the dps they offer, the defensive qualities were just a bonus.

I recently read a post of yours in another thread where you said you didn't get into discussions about game mechanics and how to fix them. I am the same way. I tend to just accept the game as it is and let others worry about how to change it. So I don't know if you're right that defense should be more about AC/PRR. But I do know that the reality of the current game is that AC is meaningless, damage avoidance is king, and damage mitigation is useful for dealing with the spike damage you receive when damage avoidance fails. And as I said earlier, mobs hit so hard that the faster they die, the safer you are. So as long as you've got a base level of defense, regardless of how you achieve it, maxing dps is priority. That's my opinion anyway, and it is formed from much experience in upper level EE content.Good discussions. I have seen some posts/threads where, even in the current game, AC can be useful in some builds that get it extremely high (depending on the content > 180-200+). I don't want to take this thread too far off topic or too far off focusing on the current build mechanics in current end game but thought there was some info being discussed that may not be accurate in all circumstances/builds. Sorry if everyone is well aware of these but I thought is would be appropriate to highlight some examples were AC is relevant even in current end game:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/423018-Shiradi-Shuricannon

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446074-S-amp-B-End-Game-EE-Solos-no-blitz-no-ranged-no-evasion

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/441082-Sword-and-Board-Needs-Love-A-simple-example?p=5317958&viewfull=1#post5317958

I think this last discussion was pretty influential helping result in, along with other feedback, the following threads:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446136-Armor-Up-Developer-Diary-1

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446138-Armor-Up-Developer-Diary-2

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446140-Armor-Up-Developer-Diary-3

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446880-Fighter-Stalwart-Defender-Changes

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446879-Paladin-Sacred-Defender-Changes

These last threads show that the Producers/Developers are working hard with the Player's Council and folk in general toward making AC & Heavy Armor in particular more relevant so that it isn't something that only works for a few extreme AC builds (like the examples posted above)...

I agree we play the game as it is on live but it is also good to know what is likely coming down the pike soon (TM). It is also refreshing to know that we can give feedback into the development/direction of the game and that they are trying to actively trying to address some areas of imbalance and continuing to build/support DDO...

Anyway, thanks for the good build and great discussion thread.

Therigar
08-18-2014, 04:30 PM
I recently read a post of yours in another thread where you said you didn't get into discussions about game mechanics and how to fix them. I am the same way. I tend to just accept the game as it is and let others worry about how to change it. So I don't know if you're right that defense should be more about AC/PRR. But I do know that the reality of the current game is that AC is meaningless, damage avoidance is king, and damage mitigation is useful for dealing with the spike damage you receive when damage avoidance fails. And as I said earlier, mobs hit so hard that the faster they die, the safer you are. So as long as you've got a base level of defense, regardless of how you achieve it, maxing dps is priority. That's my opinion anyway, and it is formed from much experience in upper level EE content.

You are absolutely right that in the current game AC is (nearly) meaningless. It does provide some damage mitigation but the effort needed to achieve useful AC usually outweighs the minimal improvements it provides. With current game mechanics I can see why it is you prefer IC. It makes complete sense.

Ein
08-31-2014, 10:30 AM
I was wondering if it is possible to add Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot. Isnt it possible to use the Coup de Grace with thrown weapons and if you line the mobs up then fascinate them and use Coup de Grace all die if they fail the save? But then again how often will you imobelise multiple mobs on EE?

unbongwah
08-31-2014, 12:31 PM
I was wondering if it is possible to add Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot. Isnt it possible to use the Coup de Grace with thrown weapons and if you line the mobs up then fascinate them and use Coup de Grace all die if they fail the save? But then again how often will you imobelise multiple mobs on EE?
What you're describing is a fairly different build, since it chews up at least 3 feats (Point Blank Shot, Prec Shot, IPS) and req's base DEX 19 for IPS. Feats are already pretty tight on this build; what are you willing to sacrifice to add ranged Coup de Grace?

CThruTheEgo
08-31-2014, 02:20 PM
I was wondering if it is possible to add Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot. Isnt it possible to use the Coup de Grace with thrown weapons and if you line the mobs up then fascinate them and use Coup de Grace all die if they fail the save? But then again how often will you imobelise multiple mobs on EE?

To add to unbongwah's comments, coup de grace is a multiselector. You have to choose either melee or ranged. You can't have both. So if you want ranged coup de grace, you'd probably be better off with a fully ranged specced build, which would look quite different from this build.

Also, because of the range of fascinate, you aren't going to be able to fascinate a lot of mobs in a straight line. Generally, you run in circles while displaced and/or invis-ed to gather up mobs and fascinate them. Either way, you'll probably only end up with 3-5 in a line that can be hit by an IPS coup de grace. IMO you'd be better off not fascinating and just kiting them and letting them line up naturally like you would normally do with IPS.

I'm pretty sure there are some ranged swashbuckler builds around here somewhere, but I haven't kept up with those to direct you to one specifically. If you don't see any in the bard forums, you might want to check the custom builds or multiclass forums.

Feithlin
08-31-2014, 04:25 PM
You can take a look at my build: Captain Jack Dancer (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/442856-Captain-Jack-Dancer-F12-Bd7-C1), which has both full ranged option for furyshot and very strong melee.

2x4
08-31-2014, 05:46 PM
Your build has been great. I have used it as a road map through 4 ETR's now. My best Fascinate was 98. This is the definitive Swashy righty now.

hi_sa1nt
09-01-2014, 07:05 PM
Currently level 26 and the build is awesome. It assassinates better than my assassin (side note - you can use coup de grace with a scroll in hand, assassinate just goes on timer but has no effect). DPS is top notch. Survivability is excellent. Sacred ground provides excellent healing for both the group and myself. I've tanked a lot more than I would have expected on this build. It steals and holds agro easily so I tend to find myself in a position to tank anyway, and the self healing and survivability are sufficient for some tanking roles. The most fun was Sully in an at level elite streak VoD. It's certainly not an ideal tank but can perform in a pinch. With the potential for tanking, if I had the build to do over again, I'd take the points from diplo and bluff and put them into intim. I made note of this in the OP.

Updated the OP.

Dropped perfect swf for lasting inspiration for reasons discussed two posts above.

I made note of the different gear setups with Balizarde and Thunderforged. With Balizarde, devotion is slotted in the red slot and Planar Focus is worn. With Thunderforged, sonic is slotted in the red slot and EE Shamanic Fetish is worn. Losing Balizarde/Planar Focus means losing 4 insight saves and 3 insightful con. The saves can't be made up but insightful con 2 can be slotted in the Thunderforged colorless slot and the second rank of cutting jibes can be dropped to pick up skaldic con, resulting in the same con. With Thunderforged you lose a total of 6 positive spell power but gain a total of 150 sonic spell power for an average gain of about 15 additional sonic damage per crit from resonant arms.

I also swapped the Epic Swashbuckler for the Kobold Admiral's Tiller. This is necessary to keep dodge maxed when making the switch from Balizarde to Thunderforged. Slotting insightful dex 2 in the Tiller's colorless slot results in the same dex.

Also added proof against poison 10 in the Tiller's hidden green slot and proof against disease 10 in the EE Shamanic Fetish's green slot because there's nothing else worth slotting. Underwater action is the only thing I'm missing, lol.

I don't think you changed pswf to lasting inspiration in the op. pswf didn't work out for me, so will try lasting inspiration this etr go-a-round.

CThruTheEgo
09-01-2014, 10:27 PM
@2x4: Thanks. Glad you're enjoying the build. :)


I don't think you changed pswf to lasting inspiration in the op. pswf didn't work out for me, so will try lasting inspiration this etr go-a-round.

I did swap PSWF for lasting inspiration in the OP. I took perfect two weapon fighting (which just provides some doublestrike) at level 26 and lasting inspiration at 28. I originally intended to take both perfect two weapon fighting and perfect single weapon fighting.

hi_sa1nt
09-01-2014, 10:49 PM
@2x4: Thanks. Glad you're enjoying the build. :)



I did swap PSWF for lasting inspiration in the OP. I took perfect two weapon fighting (which just provides some doublestrike) at level 26 and lasting inspiration at 28. I originally intended to take both perfect two weapon fighting and perfect single weapon fighting.

My apologies, sorry, just looked at it quick, and didn't read it correctly.

This etr is going so much easier than last life.

CThruTheEgo
09-02-2014, 10:45 AM
I've been at level 28 for a couple weeks now. Except for a few high levels raids, I've done every quest at level on elite and the build has performed beautifully through them all.

60 DC dancing ball was able to CC EE Stormhorns with 90% reliability. The only thing that gives me problems is anything with spell pen, which I expected. This build would greatly benefit from past lives that grant spell pen, but I'm not a past life grinder. Between low blow and Otto's irresistable dance, it has excellent single target CC as well.

Someone commented previously about cure crit wounds hitting them for 100 and not being sufficient healing. Cure crit wounds heals me for over 200 (usually about 230ish) and is plenty for emergency healing. The self healing is excellent on this build.

I'm still working on obtaining the Dragon Masque, Battlerager's Harness, and Dumathoin's Bracers. As substitutes I'm using a lootgen deadly helm, swapped Consuming Darkness with Guardian's Ring and lootgen seeker bracers to keep up my PRR and seeker, a lootgen perform belt and Treads of Falling Shadow to keep up my perform and dex (reflex save).

Fennario
09-03-2014, 12:22 PM
I have pretty much the same build with a few small differences. For example, I took Maximize instead of Force of Personality to give the Reverberate SLA and my healing spells a little more punch.

Anyways, with the upcoming change to Overwhelming Critical, I was wondering on your plans to fit it in, if any. Now that it will have no requirements, I think its one of those feats that if you do damage with any kind of weapon (melee or ranged), you really should make a place for it.

So what's it gonna be for you? For me it looks like Maximize will be getting the hook, which makes me kind of sad.

CThruTheEgo
09-03-2014, 04:12 PM
I have pretty much the same build with a few small differences. For example, I took Maximize instead of Force of Personality to give the Reverberate SLA and my healing spells a little more punch.

Anyways, with the upcoming change to Overwhelming Critical, I was wondering on your plans to fit it in, if any. Now that it will have no requirements, I think its one of those feats that if you do damage with any kind of weapon (melee or ranged), you really should make a place for it.

So what's it gonna be for you? For me it looks like Maximize will be getting the hook, which makes me kind of sad.

I don't know yet. I tend to agree with you, though, that overwhelming crit will essentially be a must-have for any melee/ranged dps build. The shield mastery feats and twist will still be a nice chunk of both offense and defense, so I'd like to keep those. I'll probably drop force of personality, although I really hate to. But I'll wait until all the changes go live before making a final decision.

hi_sa1nt
09-04-2014, 09:33 PM
I don't know yet. I tend to agree with you, though, that overwhelming crit will essentially be a must-have for any melee/ranged dps build. The shield mastery feats and twist will still be a nice chunk of both offense and defense, so I'd like to keep those. I'll probably drop force of personality, although I really hate to. But I'll wait until all the changes go live before making a final decision.

What do you think of the nerf to swf? 50% instead of 100%?

Rigge
09-04-2014, 10:01 PM
Drow get up to 44 SR with enhancements. If this stacks with items, ED abilities, or other enhancements, then it might be able to reach useful numbers. If not, then it won't make up for the lack of force of personality.

Since this seems to be the go-to topic for discussion of this specific niche of CC-based Swashbuckling bards, and this topic has been brought up before, I'll leave this here...

Been playing a Drow Bard build similar to this, but with more focus on CC (Fatesinger ED, Spellsinger Capstone instead of Swashbuckler capstone) - but anyways, on the topic of Drow and their Spell Resistance, I currently have 46 SR at character level 21, which means its up to 53 at character level 28.

Base Spell Resistance (10 + 28 Levels) = 38
Drow Spell Resistance Enhancements = 6
Grandmaster of Flowers Serenity Twist = 3
Gives a total of 47, but I can't for the life of me figure out where the other 5 points are coming from. I scoured everything, from equipment (though it doesn't stack, confirmed it myself) to feats, to enhancement, to guild buffs, nothing adds to this aside from the Drow Enhancement Tree. Maybe someone could chip in to see what I'm missing.

What I can confirm is that Drow Spell Resistance + the enhancement stacks with Grandmaster of the Flowers Tier 2 Serenity ability, though I found no other way to gain stackable SR on top of that, and still am trying to figure out the mystery of the magical 5 extra SR. The closest theory I have is that maybe the +5 effective Arcane Caster Level (from Level 5 Fatesinger, cores 1 - 5) might be chipping in to the Level Count from the base Drow Spell Resistance feat (10 + Character Level), though maybe if I hit 24 it'll stop increasing, which means we're back down to 47.

Either way, 47 or 53, not sure if they're useful numbers, probably not. Haven't noticed much of a difference on my current SR of 46. Any other Drow Bards (or Drow Anything really) got your own numbers to contribute?

CThruTheEgo
09-04-2014, 10:18 PM
What do you think of the nerf to swf? 50% instead of 100%?

It sucks, but it's also not unexpected. I figured it would get nerfed sooner or later. It just turned out to be sooner. It certainly doesn't change anything for swashbucklers, but it does make THF more competitive with SWF. I've been quite indecisive about which style I want for my paladin because of it.

hi_sa1nt
09-07-2014, 03:47 AM
What do you use your 138 sonic spell power for? the Sound Burst SLA? Does it really do that amount of significant damage to warrant that slot? And possibly Turn of the Tide in Fatesinger... whenever you're in that ED.

After looking over your spell list... is the Sound Burst SLA you're only damaging sonic spell? Or does it boost the Skirmisher's Ring that much? How much does it add in damage?

Feithlin
09-07-2014, 03:54 AM
What do you use your 138 sonic spell power for? the Sound Burst SLA? Does it really do that amount of significant damage to warrant that slot? And possibly Turn of the Tide in Fatesinger... whenever you're in that ED.

After looking over your spell list... is the Sound Burst SLA you're only damaging sonic spell? Or does it boost the Skirmisher's Ring that much? How much does it add in damage?

Resonant arms and Blow by blow.

CThruTheEgo
09-07-2014, 11:43 AM
What do you use your 138 sonic spell power for? the Sound Burst SLA? Does it really do that amount of significant damage to warrant that slot? And possibly Turn of the Tide in Fatesinger... whenever you're in that ED.

After looking over your spell list... is the Sound Burst SLA you're only damaging sonic spell? Or does it boost the Skirmisher's Ring that much? How much does it add in damage?

Feithlin is half right. Sonic spell power is for resonant arms, but I don't bother with blow by blow. Resonant arms does 6d6 on every crit, and that damage is affected by spell power. 6d6 is an average of 21 points of damage, multiplied by about 300 spell power and you're looking at an average of roughly 80 extra damage per crit. Then consider that you're critting about 50% of the time and it ends up being an average of about 40 damage per hit. That's a significant amount.

I tried using blow by blow but I found it wasn't worth it. The cooldown is very long and I crit enough without it. Plus, I'm not a fan of clicky attacks.

Reverberate is the SLA that I have, not sound burst. It's the triple stack DoT spell. I'm actually going to get rid of it. With about 300 spell power it does about 140 average damage after you triple stack it. I do more damage than that on a single non-crit attack. So taking the time to stop attacking to cast it, even with quicken, just isn't worth it imo. I haven't decided what to spend those 3 AP on instead. There isn't really anything significant - sharp note for +3 damage on fascinate; raucous refrain or reviving verse for save bonuses vs sleep, paralysis, exhaustion, and energy drain; or spell pen, which probably won't make a difference for me anyway. It doesn't really matter, those 3 AP just need to get spent to reach 30 to pick up the 5th core, virtuoso.

The Skirmisher's Ring is not affected by spell power.

EDIT: Also, in post #177 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443235-The-Count-of-Monte-Cristo-dps-CC-survivability-focused-pure-swashbuckler?p=5389715&viewfull=1#post5389715) gwonbush points out that a resonance ruby actually offers a higher dps increase than a meteoric star ruby.

MadCookieQueen
09-08-2014, 09:18 AM
as a note the sonic damage from Sword Dance is on par with Resonant Arms...also if the enemy misses you with a doublestrike they take the Sword Dance damage twice. With displacement and all other things...the enemies take a fair amount of damage.

I found that going swashbuckler with arcane marauder (TF Orb, 150 Sonic, slotted with 138 devotion and 138 fire) helped maximize out the sonic damage (sonic power 400). On average between resonant/sword dance I was adding in around 500+ points of sonic damage every 15 - 30 seconds (depending on mob density/difficulty/mob type...you know the usual things)

With U23 coming and the shield changes changes I wouldn't advise the Arcane Maurader but for now...it's been a good time. ^^

CThruTheEgo
09-08-2014, 12:47 PM
as a note the sonic damage from Sword Dance is on par with Resonant Arms...also if the enemy misses you with a doublestrike they take the Sword Dance damage twice. With displacement and all other things...the enemies take a fair amount of damage.

I liked sword dance in heroics, but I don't think it's worth it in epics mainly due to the inflated HP of epic mobs. It's 10.5 average base damage when missed. With 400 spell power it's about 50+ average damage per miss. That's just not much damage against EE trash mobs with 10k+ HP. I agree that with a 70% miss chance (from dodge, displacement, etc.) it sounds good, but if you don't have agro, then it does nothing. And between dancing sphere, low blow, and Otto's irresistable dance, I keep most trash CCed. That's what I like about resonant arms - it's consistent damage because it's not dependent on the mobs.

Fun fact about sword dance though, it works on archers. Logically, that doesn't make much sense, but it is a nice way to start whittling down their HP while you take down their more dangerous friends.

MadCookieQueen
09-08-2014, 01:09 PM
I liked sword dance in heroics, but I don't think it's worth it in epics mainly due to the inflated HP of epic mobs. It's 10.5 average base damage when missed. With 400 spell power it's about 50+ average damage per miss. That's just not much damage against EE trash mobs with 10k+ HP. I agree that with a 70% miss chance (from dodge, displacement, etc.) it sounds good, but if you don't have agro, then it does nothing. And between dancing sphere, low blow, and Otto's irresistable dance, I keep most trash CCed. That's what I like about resonant arms - it's consistent damage because it's not dependent on the mobs.

Fun fact about sword dance though, it works on archers. Logically, that doesn't make much sense, but it is a nice way to start whittling down their HP while you take down their more dangerous friends.


That's a difference in play style. I only pull out the fascinate when DA is Red and you need a breather or the party needs a rescue. Then again I go much more hardcore melee as a preference and aggro and I are old friends. I also don't solo (98% of the time) so that accounts for some of the play style difference.

So I find that it kicks off quite often and helps keep damage flowing in between swings or as you pointed out when dealing with archers. My Sword Dance usually hits around 75ish sometimes higher, sometimes lower but in one missed double strike that's 150 sonic back at the mob. Add that up a few times (because somehow certain monsters can only double strike o.0) and you've added a bonus 1000ish damage to a monster, just from them missing you and before you can turn around and insert pointy stick.


Tigers take down elephants one bite at a time ^^

CThruTheEgo
09-08-2014, 01:50 PM
That's a difference in play style. I only pull out the fascinate when DA is Red and you need a breather or the party needs a rescue. Then again I go much more hardcore melee as a preference and aggro and I are old friends. I also don't solo (98% of the time) so that accounts for some of the play style difference.

The playstyle you're describing seems quite similar to my own. I also only use fascinate in emergencies. I am also primarily a melee player, both with this build and my others (except my arti). And I only solo when no one hits my lfm by the time I've completed a quest. I use dancing sphere only when it seems like the group is taking too much damage. But I have gotten into the habit of using Otto's irresistable as often as I can, as well as low blow. Those two provide great single target CC. It sounds like that is the only real difference.

I tend to play pretty aggressively, maybe even sloppy at times. I am usually the first to run ahead and prefer to rush head on into a group of mobs. But without any significant AoE dps, keeping the agro of multiple mobs just doesn't happen. That's why I don't see sword dance as worth it. Even when I rush ahead and get the attention of several mobs, except for the one mob I am attacking, I lose their attention the first time anyone else does damage to them. For this reason, I would argue that sword dance is more useful for a primarily solo player.

EDIT: If you have a means of doing enough AoE damage to hold the agro of multiple mobs (e.g. cleaves), then I could begin to see sword dance as more of a worthwhile option. But for this build, I think AP are better spent elsewhere.

MadCookieQueen
09-08-2014, 02:51 PM
EDIT: If you have a means of doing enough AoE damage to hold the agro of multiple mobs (e.g. cleaves), then I could begin to see sword dance as more of a worthwhile option. But for this build, I think AP are better spent elsewhere.

Consecration and Energy Burst...when I let the energy burst fly it hits for maybe around 4k damage (not crit)...also my Primal Scream will crit for 2.5k. Consecration does a decent job of things and I tend to go all celestial bombardment when I can.

No cleaves necessary...just a lot of Boom!


So usually I jump in...consecrate, scream (if it's low or out) then energy burst...effective and maybe a bit reckless but you know...it's a lot of fun. Also after all that I usually have shaved off quite a bit of HP...makes the Blitzer's a little happier.


Yeah...I could see where in your build it might not make total sense but it's a decent option for some more damage if you can get that aggro or even want that aggro.

CThruTheEgo
09-08-2014, 03:22 PM
Consecration and Energy Burst...when I let the energy burst fly it hits for maybe around 4k damage (not crit)...also my Primal Scream will crit for 2.5k. Consecration does a decent job of things and I tend to go all celestial bombardment when I can.

No cleaves necessary...just a lot of Boom!


So usually I jump in...consecrate, scream (if it's low or out) then energy burst...effective and maybe a bit reckless but you know...it's a lot of fun. Also after all that I usually have shaved off quite a bit of HP...makes the Blitzer's a little happier.


Yeah...I could see where in your build it might not make total sense but it's a decent option for some more damage if you can get that aggro or even want that aggro.

You've got some good AoE options then, which this build definitely lacks. I don't have another elemental spell power anywhere, so energy burst is out for me. I used it while leveling draconic incarnation, but it's not worth it for me to twist it. Primal scream is certainly a nice option since it's sonic, and I might try that. I don't have celestial bombardment and I find consecration isn't enough to hold agro by itself.

I make up for the lack of AoE on this build using CC. My thinking is that AoE damage is basically a form of CC, since dead mobs don't do damage. So if things get out of control, I use Otto's sphere or fascinate and those contain the mobs while I melee them down.

MadCookieQueen
09-08-2014, 07:05 PM
You've got some good AoE options then, which this build definitely lacks. I don't have another elemental spell power anywhere, so energy burst is out for me. I used it while leveling draconic incarnation, but it's not worth it for me to twist it. Primal scream is certainly a nice option since it's sonic, and I might try that. I don't have celestial bombardment and I find consecration isn't enough to hold agro by itself.

I make up for the lack of AoE on this build using CC. My thinking is that AoE damage is basically a form of CC, since dead mobs don't do damage. So if things get out of control, I use Otto's sphere or fascinate and those contain the mobs while I melee them down.

The AOE damage is part of the build I've been endlessly tweaking...won't be able to post till after U23 and things have finalized. Believe me I ran with the Avatar for about a good 6 months before I posted her.

Short version: 15 Bard/4 FVS/1 Fighter -- If interested C-Ego...i'll send you some details.

Ebforest60
09-09-2014, 04:27 PM
I'm super intrigued by SWF and Swashbuckling and just about ready to pull the trigger on a TR. I've never played a bard past 12 (and that was a HOrc Warchanter) and I tend to prefer melee to casting, but I've done caster lives before and Coup de Grace satisfies my bloodthirst nicely. Having said that, do you forsee any need for changes based on what we are seeing of U23 on Lamannia?

I've looked at a bunch of new bard builds and many are interesting but I think the Count is probably the one for me. I obsess over builds far too much. If it matters, the character I'm TR'ing will have Monk, Rogue, FvS past lives with +3 tomes across the board (with a +5 int tome.)

CThruTheEgo
09-09-2014, 11:41 PM
The AOE damage is part of the build I've been endlessly tweaking...won't be able to post till after U23 and things have finalized. Believe me I ran with the Avatar for about a good 6 months before I posted her.

Short version: 15 Bard/4 FVS/1 Fighter -- If interested C-Ego...i'll send you some details.

I can see the synergy with that split already. I'll wait til you post it to see the details though. Right now I'm preoccupied with new paladin possibilities. :)


I'm super intrigued by SWF and Swashbuckling and just about ready to pull the trigger on a TR. I've never played a bard past 12 (and that was a HOrc Warchanter) and I tend to prefer melee to casting, but I've done caster lives before and Coup de Grace satisfies my bloodthirst nicely. Having said that, do you forsee any need for changes based on what we are seeing of U23 on Lamannia?

I've looked at a bunch of new bard builds and many are interesting but I think the Count is probably the one for me. I obsess over builds far too much. If it matters, the character I'm TR'ing will have Monk, Rogue, FvS past lives with +3 tomes across the board (with a +5 int tome.)

U23 won't bring drastic changes for this build. Probably some gear changes and maybe a few AP spent in harper. I do not yet know enough about either of those to say exactly what those changes will be though. I'm sure I'll post changes soon after U23 goes live.

Aerendil
09-14-2014, 09:43 AM
The AOE damage is part of the build I've been endlessly tweaking...won't be able to post till after U23 and things have finalized. Believe me I ran with the Avatar for about a good 6 months before I posted her.

Short version: 15 Bard/4 FVS/1 Fighter -- If interested C-Ego...i'll send you some details.

I'm trying to see the synergy here, but not sure where you're going with it.
Interested to see how it fares when released, however. I'd love an alternative to the leagues of pure 20 SWF Bards out there now.

CThruTheEgo
09-14-2014, 03:09 PM
I'm trying to see the synergy here, but not sure where you're going with it.
Interested to see how it fares when released, however. I'd love an alternative to the leagues of pure 20 SWF Bards out there now.

Not my build, but 4 FvS would be for one of two things - ameliorating strike from warpriest, which I doubt because a 15 bard in divine crusader should have enough self healing without it; or 8% fire spell crit from angel of vengeance which applies to energy burst (assuming fire), celestial bombardment and consecration (both of which are also fire). Since MadCookieQueen already mentioned a preference for melee dps, an emphasis on AoE dps, as well as slotting fire spell power, I would assume the 15 bard is for swashbuckling and other bard goodies, the 4 FvS levels are for spell crit, and 1 fighter is probably only for the extra feat since I can imagine feats being tight on such a build. Altogether it would be a solid melee/spell AoE dps build with solid survivability.

That's my guess, but correct me if I'm wrong Cookie... or keep us all in suspense until you post it. ;)

MadCookieQueen
09-15-2014, 10:59 AM
Not my build, but 4 FvS would be for one of two things - ameliorating strike from warpriest, which I doubt because a 15 bard in divine crusader should have enough self healing without it; or 8% fire spell crit from angel of vengeance which applies to energy burst (assuming fire), celestial bombardment and consecration (both of which are also fire). Since MadCookieQueen already mentioned a preference for melee dps, an emphasis on AoE dps, as well as slotting fire spell power, I would assume the 15 bard is for swashbuckling and other bard goodies, the 4 FvS levels are for spell crit, and 1 fighter is probably only for the extra feat since I can imagine feats being tight on such a build. Altogether it would be a solid melee/spell AoE dps build with solid survivability.

That's my guess, but correct me if I'm wrong Cookie... or keep us all in suspense until you post it. ;)

I could keep you in suspense...but...you nailed much of it.

The 4 FVS is actually more for the ameliorating strike and Inflame...these are nice bonuses and healing/melee option for when fighting in groups...which I tend to do. Right now I can heal a group of melees for around 175-200ish per strike. The action boost group bonuses in attack/damage/saves and 15% elemental absorption really help out. I Smite Foe like crazy and Smite Weakness adds in the Vulnerable for even more boom. Don't forget Divine Might for more strength and Wall of Steel for moar PRR.

The fighter is more there for the cheap Haste boost, the extra feat is nice...okay really nice. Since she's AP tight it made more sense to go with a cheaper Haste boost. I know that Doublestrike and Haste share a timer but...when you do the swing speed calcs it's close to the mechanic of giving you double action boosts for more swinging like a fiend. Basically...I am the Tasmanian devil ^^

I compensate for the spell crit loss of not taking AoV with a greensteel Lore item...Major Fire, Greater Healing...that will change with the new gear coming out...but for now it works and was on the cheap side to make

I currently use a TF Orb and Rapier so I get a +100 universal (more useful for this build than the other tier ones) and a +150 sonic out of the deal and can slot in my combustion and devotion augments. In U23...I'm dropping the Orb...but not losing too much out of not having it, thanks to new Orchard gear and testing either Dashing Scoundrel or Skirmisher (Dashing is winning, currently)

The 15 levels of Bard are for the SB goodies, the Inspire Excellence, more universal spell power out of SS and you know...Skaldic Rage. Of course because Bards are awesome, even before SB.

I went a bit more heavy on the CHA than the Strength for this build, since I'm not using Stunning Blow...it was more to my advantage to trade in some Strength points (not a lot) to pick up more CHA (sonic spell power via Perform, UMD, Fascinate, Energy burst, etc...but NOT taking the CHA to Damage...ran some numbers...it was lower DPS wise) and a bit more DEX. Her saves are a lot better than her previous build (mid uppper 60's and crests into 70's when fully buffed). I stayed Drow for this because of the CHA and DEX cheapness and you know...Drow are cute ^^

Final build and numbers coming out sometime after U23...but that's just a preview.

CThruTheEgo
09-16-2014, 02:47 PM
...snip...

I did forget about divine might and wall of steel. I can definitely see how warpiest is a better investment than angel of vengeance.

Solid melee, solid AoE, solid party support. Sounds like a fun build.