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Maelodic
06-02-2014, 02:07 AM
This build is very similar to CThruTheEgo's and has a focus on melee DPS- it has morphed into a drow variant extremely similar to his so I would recommend looking at his thread for resources. The posts located at the bottom of this thread contain both alternate builds of varying types as well as posts that would be useful to any Bard.

Gear and Calculations are going through an overhaul- please be patient and I'll get those updated. Thread is semi-incomplete while I'm doing so.

This build requires NO TOMES and is extremely new player friendly due to all the free goodies you get in Swashbuckler. While gear certainly helps it achieve it's full potential, this build could be played by anybody, new or not.

Questions and critique are very much welcome, and even more so recommended.

Maelodic
Chaotic Good Drow Elf
20 Bard

STATS (34 Point)

STR 36 (10 Base + 4 Tome + 8 Enhancement + 1 Exceptional + 2 Insightful + 2 Inspire Excellence + 2 Ship + 2 Rage + 4 Skaldic)
DEX 34 (12 Base + 4 Tome + 11 Enhancement + 1 Exceptional + 2 Insight + 2 Inspire Excellence + 2 Ship)
CON 36 (14 Base + 4 Tome + 8 Enhancement + 3 Insightful + 1 Exceptional + 2 Inspire Excellence + 2 Ship + 2 Rage)
INT (12 Base
WIS (8 Base
CHA 64 (20 Base + 7 Levels + 10 Enhancement + 6 Tome + 2 Insight + 1 Exceptional + 2 Inspire Excellence + 2 Swashbuckler + 2 Spellsinger + 2 Drow + 4 Epic Destiny + 2 Capstone + 2 Ship + 2 Yugo)

FEATS (In order)
Single Weapon Fighting
Spell Focus: Enchantment
Precision
Improved Single Weapon Fighting
Improved Critical: Piercing
Greater Single Weapon Fighting
Shield Mastery
Quicken Spell
Inspire Excellence
Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
Improved Shield Mastery
Lasting Inspiration

SKILLS
Perform, Balance, Concentration, Use Magic Device, Diplomacy, Heal, Haggle
Ranks after 7 in Jump

ENHANCEMENTS
Drow
Spell Resistance II
Charisma II

Spellsinger
Core I
Magical Studies III
Lingering Song III
Core II
Wand and Scroll Mastery III
Marigold Enchant
Core III
Spellsong Trance
Charisma
Enthrallment
Core IV
Sustaining Song
Charisma

Warchanter
Core I
Enchant Weapons

Swashbuckler
Core I
On Your Toes III
Tavern Shanties I
Core II
Fast Movement
Deflect Arrows
Doublestrike III
Core III
Skirmisher
Resonent Arms III
Different Tack
Charisma
Core IV
Low Blow
Charisma
Core V
Coup De Grace
Exploit Weakness
Thread the Needle
Second Skin III
Capstone

EPIC DESTINY
Divine Crusader
Charisma
Charisma
Charisma
Charisma
Bane of Undeath
Consecration III
Sacred Ground
Crusade
Celestial Champion
Celestial Bombardment II
Strike Down

TWISTS
Legendary Shield Mastery
Soundburst SLA
Enchantment Specialist
(Upon ETR Completionist) Hail of Blows

PERFORM
Some gross number way higher than it needs to be

ENCHANT
10 Base
6 Spell Level
27 CHA
5 Item
2 Augment
1 Marigold
3 Spellsinger Core
3 Enchantment Specialist
1 Spell Focus: Enchantment
1 Profane
1 Ship Buff
1 Spellsong Trance
61 Total

Soundburst: 65 DC
Energy Burst: 61 DC

HP
120 Bard
80 Epic
CON
10 Draconic Vitality
25 Heroic Durability
45 Greensteel
40 Vitality
30 False Life
Warchanter
Total

PRR
5 Improved Shield Mastery
15 Legendary Shield Mastery
30 Equipment
15 Light Armor
65 Total
(I ended up with 92 total on Lammania but I'm not sure how I got there)

DODGE
10 Equipment
16 Swashbuckler
6 Uncanny Dodge
1 Haste
33 Total (32 Cap)

REFLEX

Total

DOUBLESTRIKE
3 Swashbuckler
~10 Divine Crusader
9 Martial Past Lives
7 Legendary Shield Mastery
8 Improved Shield Mastery
37 Total

Important Posts
Empower Healing and CHA Based reasoning (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443015-U22-Maelodic-Merrily-Murdering-the-Masses-(20-Bard)?p=5345884&viewfull=1#post5345884) (Ended up switching to Emp. Healing anyway)
STR based can still get good Coup De Grace DC (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443015-U22-Maelodic-Merrily-Murdering-the-Masses-(20-Bard)?p=5346579&viewfull=1#post5346579)
Enchant DC Option (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443015-U22-Maelodic-Merrily-Murdering-the-Masses-(20-Bard)?p=5346660&viewfull=1#post5346660)
Half-Elf Update and some alternative options (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443015-U22-Maelodic-Merrily-Murdering-the-Masses-(20-Bard)?p=5349072&viewfull=1#post5349072)
Rogue 2 Splash benefits (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443015-U22-Maelodic-Merrily-Murdering-the-Masses-(20-Bard)?p=5355598&viewfull=1#post5355598)
Less updating the thread- passing build to the Great and Mighty Count (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443015-U22-Maelodic-Merrily-Murdering-the-Masses-(20-Bard)?p=5383200&viewfull=1#post5383200)

Build Alternates
DEX Based Halfling Thrower (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443015-U22-Maelodic-Merrily-Murdering-the-Masses-(20-Bard)?p=5357632&viewfull=1#post5357632)
Full Melee Build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443015-U22-Maelodic-Merrily-Murdering-the-Masses-(20-Bard)?p=5365375&viewfull=1#post5365375)
Hybrid Spellcaster/Melee (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443015-U22-Maelodic-Merrily-Murdering-the-Masses-(20-Bard)?p=5379080&viewfull=1#post5379080)

Special thanks to CThruTheEgo for helping to brainstorm and doing math

cru121
06-02-2014, 02:33 AM
DEX 33 (10 Base + 4 Tome + 11 Enhancement + 1 Exceptional + 1 Fatesinger + 2 Inspire Excellence + 2 Ship + 2 Yugo)

FEATS (In order)
Single Weapon Fighting
Toughness
Shield Mastery
Precision

Precision needs 13 dex, you reach 13 dex at level 11, i.e. you cannot take it at level 6.

EDIT: I'd probably ditch Toughness for Empower Healing, YMMW.

Maelodic
06-02-2014, 02:36 AM
Precision needs 13 dex, you reach 13 dex at level 11, i.e. you cannot take it at level 6.

EDIT: I'd probably ditch Toughness for Empower Healing, YMMW.

Thank you for finding that oversight- I've corrected this.

I've considered toughness vs empower healing and it's something I'll still consider for a little while. 70 HP is really, really tasty though.

I'm not familiar with the YMMW acronym >>

cru121
06-02-2014, 02:41 AM
should have been www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ymmv, sorry, we all make mistakes :)

EDIT: Why charisma based? Is 50 cha enough to land some spell based CC (without feats)? Is there any other cha synergy going on?

Maelodic
06-02-2014, 02:47 AM
should have been www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ymmv, sorry, we all make mistakes :)

Ahh, I see. Thank you.

Did some thinkin about Empower Healing and my cure critical.

Without heal amp mods or anything else, Empower Healing will boost my cure critical heal up by a maximum of 39 HP per heal at the cost of 10 SP. It's less efficient for longer quests because a cure critical is 20 SP.

I'd much rather be able to (probably) take one more hit, I think. I'm still undecided, but that's why Toughness/Epic Toughness is in there.
EDIT:


EDIT: Why charisma based? Is 50 cha enough to land some spell based CC (without feats)? Is there any other cha synergy going on?

This is for absolutely gross Coup De Grace and Knockdown DCs, Fascinate DC.
Coup De Grace is an insta-kill- Bards have a lot more tools than just spells.
CHA also gets me more spell points, UMD, and makes me oh-so-much-sexier.
Haggle will be off the chain-hook too but that's less important.
Diplomacy can also be off the chain-hook- but that's so niche I'm about to cuddle up with a book.
I also get CHA to damage from Swashbuckler- STR+Divine Might would in fact be better but not by enough for me to give up the capstone- and staying pure is also something I want.

I don't have enough feats for overwhelming critical less I sacrifice precision (which becomes precision AND power attack with the swashbuckler t5s) and the shield masteries- which I don't want to do. I actually believe the doublestrike would end up doing more damage than OC- especially since with Balizarde I'll have a 15-20 4x crit profile.

CThruTheEgo
06-02-2014, 07:34 AM
Solid build. I notice you have inspire recklessness listed, but it is dispelled by defensive stances, which is what swashbuckler is, so I don't think this will work.

Maelodic
06-02-2014, 07:46 AM
Solid build. I notice you have inspire recklessness listed, but it is dispelled by defensive stances, which is what swashbuckler is, so I don't think this will work.

I have yet to test this because lama is still not up but I believe if you're already Swashbuckling and you use the song, it doesn't get dispelled. Being dispelled by defensive stances is just so people can choose to remove the -10% fort as that's annoying if you aren't a melee.

Description:
"This effect will be removed if the target enters combat expertise, defensive fighting, or a defensive stance."

I'll have to test it on my Warchanter when I get home. If it's not a thing it will open up some more room for more heal amp or some more tasty Spellsinger stuff.

CThruTheEgo
06-02-2014, 08:17 AM
I have yet to test this because lama is still not up but I believe if you're already Swashbuckling and you use the song, it doesn't get dispelled. Being dispelled by defensive stances is just so people can choose to remove the -10% fort as that's annoying if you aren't a melee.

Description:
"This effect will be removed if the target enters combat expertise, defensive fighting, or a defensive stance."

I'll have to test it on my Warchanter when I get home. If it's not a thing it will open up some more room for more heal amp or some more tasty Spellsinger stuff.

Let us know after you test it. If you're right then I'm going to have to free up a lot of AP somewhere.

Steelstar
06-02-2014, 08:23 AM
I have yet to test this because lama is still not up but I believe if you're already Swashbuckling and you use the song, it doesn't get dispelled. Being dispelled by defensive stances is just so people can choose to remove the -10% fort as that's annoying if you aren't a melee.

Description:
"This effect will be removed if the target enters combat expertise, defensive fighting, or a defensive stance."

I'll have to test it on my Warchanter when I get home. If it's not a thing it will open up some more room for more heal amp or some more tasty Spellsinger stuff.

In previous Lamannia builds, Swashbuckling acted like a Defensive stance in some ways but not others. Our current plan (which should appear in the next Lamannia build) is for Swashbuckling to not be considered a "Defensive" stance at all.

Nightmanis
06-02-2014, 08:33 AM
In previous Lamannia builds, Swashbuckling acted like a Defensive stance in some ways but not others. Our current plan (which should appear in the next Lamannia build) is for Swashbuckling to not be considered a "Defensive" stance at all.

If you do I'll need your address to send you a bottle of scotch. If and only if I can activate defensive stance from fighter with it.

unbongwah
06-02-2014, 08:42 AM
In previous Lamannia builds, Swashbuckling acted like a Defensive stance in some ways but not others. Our current plan (which should appear in the next Lamannia build) is for Swashbuckling to not be considered a "Defensive" stance at all.
Does this mean Swashbuckling will stack with Stalwart Defender defensive stance? If so, it's time to seriously reconsider my plans for a S&B bard... :cool:

CThruTheEgo
06-02-2014, 08:48 AM
In previous Lamannia builds, Swashbuckling acted like a Defensive stance in some ways but not others. Our current plan (which should appear in the next Lamannia build) is for Swashbuckling to not be considered a "Defensive" stance at all.

Yeah, this changes things considerably. This will be a good decision if it goes live. Thanks for the info.

Maelodic
06-02-2014, 09:27 AM
In previous Lamannia builds, Swashbuckling acted like a Defensive stance in some ways but not others. Our current plan (which should appear in the next Lamannia build) is for Swashbuckling to not be considered a "Defensive" stance at all.

Thank you so much Steel! That is fantastic to know- going to change thing quite a bit.


Does this mean Swashbuckling will stack with Stalwart Defender defensive stance? If so, it's time to seriously reconsider my plans for a S&B bard... :cool:

If this ends up being the case- fighter tanks are going to have a huge boost, and there will be much rejoicing in the land.

Poor pallies =P


Let us know after you test it. If you're right then I'm going to have to free up a lot of AP somewhere.

Apparently, it doesn't matter anyway but I was able to test it and you can't use Recklessness within a defensive stance.

It makes no difference with my build, however it should effect the inevitable Stalwart Bards to come.

der_kluge
06-02-2014, 12:10 PM
Just as an aside, and it's not specific to this one build, but why do people list the build stats including things like Yugo pots, rage, and other temporary stat buffs?

What is the point of doing that? Most people aren't walking around with stacks of Yugo pots. Of the Yugo pots I own, I've never bothered to even use them, because frankly I've never found myself in a position where I've felt like I just needed to kill stuff *that much faster* than I already do.

Nascoe
06-02-2014, 12:49 PM
In previous Lamannia builds, Swashbuckling acted like a Defensive stance in some ways but not others. Our current plan (which should appear in the next Lamannia build) is for Swashbuckling to not be considered a "Defensive" stance at all.

I really get the impression you guys are doing everything to make this work. Good news if you do make Swashbuckling something that does not work as a defensive stance (sure enough creating something "new" for it would be easier than solving issues with the part yes, part no and other DSes!).

unbongwah
06-02-2014, 03:10 PM
Just as an aside, and it's not specific to this one build, but why do people list the build stats including things like Yugo pots, rage, and other temporary stat buffs?
Bragging rights. "My build can hit hypothetically higher stats than your build hypothetically can!" :cool:

Rathic
06-02-2014, 05:15 PM
I'd bet my rebellion that the core enhancements will break celestia's damage type by adding magic when it increases the enhancement bonus. Any monster other than shadows that has DR will take reduced damage, use rebellion instead.

Fionivar
06-02-2014, 09:19 PM
DODGE
10 Equipment
16 Swashbuckler
6 Uncanny Dodge
1 Haste
33 Total
(can't check what the cap was at the moment, but 33 is probably over it)


On a pure 20 Swashbuckler, we should cap dodge out at 30% (25% base + 5% Roll with the Punches)

CThruTheEgo
06-02-2014, 10:41 PM
Just as an aside, and it's not specific to this one build, but why do people list the build stats including things like Yugo pots, rage, and other temporary stat buffs?

What is the point of doing that? Most people aren't walking around with stacks of Yugo pots. Of the Yugo pots I own, I've never bothered to even use them, because frankly I've never found myself in a position where I've felt like I just needed to kill stuff *that much faster* than I already do.

Because many of them are not very temporary. Yugo pots last for 15 minutes. Rage pots for about 1.5 minutes and only require drinking a pot to keep up. Rage spell can be over 5 minutes. You get 15 total minutes of primal scream per shrine.

These kinds of "temporary" boosts are most important for reaching certain DC thresholds but can be useful for other purposes as well. Yugo constitution pots are also great for squishy builds since they add a total of 48 hp.

Personally, I'll include anything that is reasonably easy to obtain (and yes, Yugo pots are easy to obtain) and is not a huge pita to keep up due to how you have to use it (e.g. scrolls or clickies that require gear swapping) and/or an incredibly short duration. I don't really consider Tenser's a worthwhile buff to include if you have to rely on scroll use to keep it up because very few people are going to keep up a 1 minute scroll consistently, I know I'm not anyway.

As unbongwah pointed out though, a lot of the time these are included merely for bragging rights. And including buffs that are not realistic to keep up has the added effect of distorting the build to look better than it actually is.

Maelodic
06-02-2014, 11:36 PM
Just as an aside, and it's not specific to this one build, but why do people list the build stats including things like Yugo pots, rage, and other temporary stat buffs?.

It's really just build potential- though I don't really list anything that isn't sustainable. Bards DO get the Rage spell and mine will last a long time. I actually thought about that but the only numbers that are a bit skewed are ship buffs+yugo.

Also I'm lazy. They're easy calculations but I figured I'd just include them anyway. -2 to a 93+1d20 DC isn't going to kill it.


I'd bet my rebellion that the core enhancements will break celestia's damage type by adding magic when it increases the enhancement bonus. Any monster other than shadows that has DR will take reduced damage, use rebellion instead.

It does- same as the Warpriest enhancements. I have hopes that it will be fixed, but until then you're right in that I should be using rebellion as secondary.

Honestly though, Balizarde will out dps even with DR on everything but high fort enemies- in which case Rebellion will.


On a pure 20 Swashbuckler, we should cap dodge out at 30% (25% base + 5% Roll with the Punches)

Thanks! Modified.


These kinds of "temporary" boosts are most important for reaching certain DC thresholds but can be useful for other purposes as well. Yugo constitution pots are also great for squishy builds since they add a total of 48 hp.

Personally, I'll include anything that is reasonably easy to obtain (and yes, Yugo pots are easy to obtain) and is not a huge pita to keep up due to how you have to use it (e.g. scrolls or clickies that require gear swapping) and/or an incredibly short duration. I don't really consider Tenser's a worthwhile buff to include if you have to rely on scroll use to keep it up because very few people are going to keep up a 1 minute scroll consistently, I know I'm not anyway.

Exactly this. Honestly, most of the time I won't bother with Yugo pots but everything else listed I'll have on pretty constantly.


As unbongwah pointed out though, a lot of the time these are included merely for bragging rights. And including buffs that are not realistic to keep up has the added effect of distorting the build to look better than it actually is.

I was worried that this would be how everything is interpreted. Honestly most of the work put into this build went into finding equipment that was synergistic. The build itself seems pretty cookie-cutter to me and wrapped around my preferences. Extend for displace/haste/rage would be awesome but it doesn't really matter.

---

Updated - Missed capstone.

Xario
06-03-2014, 01:51 AM
Just as an aside, and it's not specific to this one build, but why do people list the build stats including things like Yugo pots, rage, and other temporary stat buffs?

What is the point of doing that? Most people aren't walking around with stacks of Yugo pots. Of the Yugo pots I own, I've never bothered to even use them, because frankly I've never found myself in a position where I've felt like I just needed to kill stuff *that much faster* than I already do.

Yes this yugo pots mania is nonsense.

You really want drink yugo pots (one per 1000 pp) for each stat each 15 mins for so small bonus as +2 on not so important stats?
Do you also considered consequence? Do you know penalty for using them?

You get:
-4 reflex for +2 wisdom yugo pot
-4 fortitude for +2 strength yugo pot
-4 will save for +2 charisma yugo pot
-5% Melee attack speed bonus for +2 constitution yugo pot
-50% Fortification for +2 intelligence yugo pot
-2 Attack bonus for +2 dexterity yugo pot

and some other bonuses on other side, but not enough to compensate your loss.

You don’t counting with theses crippling penalties and secondary bonus in your theory

Yougo pots are mainly good for DC casters for maximize their DC for every cost.

Maelodic
06-03-2014, 01:58 AM
Yes this yugo pots mania is nonsense.

You really want drink yugo pots (one per 1000 pp) for each stat each 15 mins for so small bonus as +2 on not so important stats?
Do you also considered consequence? Do you know penalty for using them?

You get:
-4 reflex for +2 wisdom yugo pot
-4 fortitude for +2 strength yugo pot
-4 will save for +2 charisma yugo pot
-5% Melee attack speed bonus for +2 constitution yugo pot
-50% Fortification for +2 intelligence yugo pot
-2 Attack bonus for +2 dexterity yugo pot

and some other bonuses on other side, but not enough to compensate your loss.

You don’t counting with theses crippling penalties and secondary bonus in your theory

Yougo pots are mainly good for DC casters for maximize their DC for every cost.

I just see it on about every build- not following suit seems silly. I'll edit it a bit later though, I guess. I've not seen gripe about it on other builds.

Honestly, not trying to be uber/epic/whatever. I tend to look up other builds for calculations in case I miss anything so I decided to add that.


----

UPDATE: Took out Yugo.

CThruTheEgo
06-03-2014, 02:30 AM
It does- same as the Warpriest enhancements. I have hopes that it will be fixed, but until then you're right in that I should be using rebellion as secondary.

Honestly though, Balizarde will out dps even with DR on everything but high fort enemies- in which case Rebellion will.

Thanks for the heads up that Celestia won't work. Since Celestia's primary use is as a DR breaker, I'm not sure why Rebellion would replace it. A Thunder Forged rapier with good slotted and tier 2 Dragon's Edge offers general DR breaking like Celestia and better fort bypass than Rebellion.


I was worried that this would be how everything is interpreted. Honestly most of the work put into this build went into finding equipment that was synergistic. The build itself seems pretty cookie-cutter to me and wrapped around my preferences. Extend for displace/haste/rage would be awesome but it doesn't really matter.

None of my comments were intended as a critique of your build, just as der_kluge said that his were not specific to it either. Aside from the Yugo pots to all stats (which I completely missed initially because we all know no one is drinking Yugo pots for every stat) I don't see any "fluff" numbers in your build.

Just curious Maelodic, since you said you've done extensive testing on Lam, do you know if the shield bash knockdown from low blow counts as being tripped to enable coup de grace?

Maelodic
06-03-2014, 03:06 AM
Thanks for the heads up that Celestia won't work. Since Celestia's primary use is as a DR breaker, I'm not sure why Rebellion would replace it. A Thunder Forged rapier with good slotted and tier 2 Dragon's Edge offers general DR breaking like Celestia and better fort bypass than Rebellion.

Rebellion would be for high fort- which is usually coupled with DR. I don't really care about DR when my damage numbers with Balizarde get up.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't quite clarify. It's not really a replacement- at least not a good one. I'm not planning on crafting anymore DR breakers though.

T3 Thunderforged will probably be the last thing I farm up- I'm behind on equipment. I'm not counting on having one for a while so that's just why I posted it that way. I already have the other weapons.

When I post the actual equipment list after U22 comes out, it will include Thunderforged.

I'll eventually get Mortal Fear and armor piercing and all that good stuff.


None of my comments were intended as a critique of your build, just as der_kluge said that his were not specific to it either. Aside from the Yugo pots to all stats (which I completely missed initially because we all know no one is drinking Yugo pots for every stat) I don't see any "fluff" numbers in your build.

I know- I apologize for getting slightly defensive. I just didn't want the thread to turn into a discussion about fluff numbers in builds- that's all.


Just curious Maelodic, since you said you've done extensive testing on Lam, do you know if the shield bash knockdown from low blow counts as being tripped to enable coup de grace?

Yes- and they're on similar cooldowns and have the same supermassive DC- the trip is on a higher cooldown than the insta-kill but not by a whole lot. It's an amazing 1-2 combo and I love it- it starts to feel similar Quivering Palm- and with an investment in stealth feels very similar to a Rogue.

The wearing-nothing slap in the face works too- but unless you can't spare two feats, there's absolutely no reason to go that route. In the last implementation- buckler-buckling gave 10% dodge and the 7% doublestrike wearing nothing gets you is negated by improved shield mastery (and surpassed by legendary shield mastery.)

I honestly think they should give more of a stacking attack speed bonus to wearing nothing in your offhand- or there really is absolutely no reason to use it.

The main reason I've been following this like a hawk is because Swashbuckler feels like a(my) Monk combined with (my) Rogue and 8 levels in Wizard. I wouldn't be surprised if the devs just looked at all my gameplay posts and decided to make this tree and playstyle just for me.

I may trade out haggle and diplo for hide and move silently- with the stealth rework disengaging with just that mechanic is such a useful tool. Not to mentioned stealthed Fascinates- not great in a group unless you have your party in your backpack but can make a lot of quests easy to solo. I guess invis fascinate works the same way now anyway.

CThruTheEgo
06-03-2014, 04:58 AM
Rebellion would be for high fort- which is usually coupled with DR. I don't really care about DR when my damage numbers with Balizarde get up.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't quite clarify. It's not really a replacement- at least not a good one. I'm not planning on crafting anymore DR breakers though.

T3 Thunderforged will probably be the last thing I farm up- I'm behind on equipment. I'm not counting on having one for a while so that's just why I posted it that way. I already have the other weapons.

I'll eventually get Mortal Fear and armor piercing and all that good stuff.

Yeah dragon's edge would be for the fort bypass. It's tier 2 and offers 35% fort bypass, which is 15% more than rebellion. Tier 2 thunder forged weapons aren't that much of a grind at all really.


I know- I apologize for getting slightly defensive. I just didn't want the thread to turn into a discussion about fluff numbers in builds- that's all.

Sorry, didn't mean to derail the thread. Back on topic.


Yes- and they're on similar cooldowns and have the same supermassive DC- the trip is on a higher cooldown than the insta-kill but not by a whole lot. It's an amazing 1-2 combo and I love it- it starts to feel similar Quivering Palm- and with an investment in stealth feels very similar to a Rogue.

Hmmm. I would assume then, that coup de grace will also work with stalwart defender's second core, overbalance, which is a knockdown effect on vorpal (although I'm not quite clear on whether this is limited to a shield vorpal or not).

Now I'm leaning towards a cha based PDK 12bard/6fighter/2rogue. Coup de grace can get an insane DC for an instakill ability and is well worth going cha based over str based imo. I don't think it's OP though, since you first have to render mobs into an appropriate state before you can use it, and you are giving up some damage by not going str based.

Thanks for the info.


The wearing-nothing slap in the face works too- but unless you can't spare two feats, there's absolutely no reason to go that route. In the last implementation- buckler-buckling gave 10% dodge and the 7% doublestrike wearing nothing gets you is negated by improved shield mastery (and surpassed by legendary shield mastery.)

I honestly think they should give more of a stacking attack speed bonus to wearing nothing in your offhand- or there really is absolutely no reason to use it.

Agreed. There's basically no reason at all to go with nothing in the offhand right now.

Maelodic
06-03-2014, 05:12 AM
Now I'm leaning towards a cha based PDK 12bard/6fighter/2rogue. Coup de grace can get an insane DC for an instakill ability and is well worth going cha based over str based imo. I don't think it's OP though, since you first have to render mobs into an appropriate state before you can use it, and you are giving up some damage by not going str based.

Thanks for the info.

I actually believe you can get your Coup De Grace (I'm going to start using the acronym CDG and see if it catches on) DC up super high without actually needing a big CHA investment. Take away any of the CHA bonus I have on mine at all and the DC is still 73+1d20. That's more than your crazy INT Rogue's assassinate. (Not belittling- just thinking it's a little crazy)

CHA based is really because I can- and gives me additional benefits and I'm way too feat starved for OC anyway. I'm not splashing so my STR isn't going to fly out the window. UMD, Perform if they ever cut down the DCs, spell points, being sexy. You know, important stuff.

CThruTheEgo
06-03-2014, 07:30 AM
I actually believe you can get your Coup De Grace (I'm going to start using the acronym CDG and see if it catches on) DC up super high without actually needing a big CHA investment. Take away any of the CHA bonus I have on mine at all and the DC is still 73+1d20. That's more than your crazy INT Rogue's assassinate. (Not belittling- just thinking it's a little crazy)

You're right, but my rogue still has limitations. I'd just love to have an instakill ability with a near 100 DC. :)


CHA based is really because I can- and gives me additional benefits and I'm way too feat starved for OC anyway. I'm not splashing so my STR isn't going to fly out the window. UMD, Perform if they ever cut down the DCs, spell points, being sexy. You know, important stuff.

Have you considered force of personality? You could get a bit more charisma and end up with a will save that won't be no-fail but still effective. With slippery mind giving you twice the opportunity, that seems like a good investment. Even without epic toughness you'll still top 800 hp, which is plenty. I think that would round out your defenses nicely.

Also, since you're already cha based, what about dropping toughness for spell focus enchant. That allows you to twist enchantment specialist from magister. You could get a solid DC on Otto's sphere, especially with the right debuffs (mind fog, etc.). That would still leave you with just under 800 hp, which you could reach with a yugo pot (hehe) and give you a solid persistant AoE CC option.

Maelodic
06-03-2014, 07:45 AM
You're right, but my rogue still has limitations. I'd just love to have an instakill ability with a near 100 DC. :)

Statistics dictate that a majority of the time, my insta-kill will be over 100 DC. It does feel nice, doesn't it?


Have you considered force of personality? You could get a bit more charisma and end up with a will save that won't be no-fail but still effective. With slippery mind giving you twice the opportunity, that seems like a good investment. Even without epic toughness you'll still top 800 hp, which is plenty. I think that would round out your defenses nicely.

Toughness and Epic Toughness were initially to bolster a bit but the will save may be a lot better.


Also, since you're already cha based, what about dropping toughness for spell focus enchant. That allows you to twist enchantment specialist from magister. You could get a solid DC on Otto's sphere, especially with the right debuffs (mind fog, etc.). That would still leave you with just under 800 hp, which you could reach with a yugo pot (hehe) and give you a solid persistant AoE CC option.

The problem is that I'd need heighten- but if I forgo Force of Personality-
+4 Caster Levels from Fatesinger:
24 Levels
20 CHA
3 Magister
1 Spellsinger
1 Spell Focus

49 without trying- which on a will save will actually be super useful in EN/EH I suppose, on an item swap it would be up to 55 if I grind out a TF Rapier for it (and heals)

Trying more while retaining melee power:
24 Levels
20 CHA
3 Magister
1 Spellsinger
6 Item
3 Bard PL
1 Spell Focus

59 Trying a bit harder by doing some TRs- probably won't do it because it won't be horribly reliable in EEs anyway.

Losing out on shield masteries- which almost definitely isn't worth it, would add another 2 DCs.



Thanks for giving me things to consider. Great thing about Lama is I can test it and see if I luvs it.

CThruTheEgo
06-03-2014, 08:25 AM
The problem is that I'd need heighten- but if I forgo Force of Personality-
+4 Caster Levels from Fatesinger:
24 Levels
20 CHA
3 Magister
1 Spellsinger
1 Spell Focus

49 without trying- which on a will save will actually be super useful in EN/EH I suppose, on an item swap it would be up to 55 if I grind out a TF Rapier for it (and heals)

Trying more while retaining melee power:
24 Levels
20 CHA
3 Magister
1 Spellsinger
6 Item
3 Bard PL
1 Spell Focus

59 Trying a bit harder by doing some TRs- probably won't do it because it won't be horribly reliable in EEs anyway.

Losing out on shield masteries- which almost definitely isn't worth it, would add another 2 DCs.

I have heard from multiple people that 60 will DC is the magic number for EE. I don't have experience with this though, so I can't confirm how accurate that is. You should be able to reach 56 cha before any ED bonuses.

Cha56: 18 base, 4 tome, 7 levels, 10 item, 3 insight, 1 exceptional, 1 human adaptability, 2 swashbuckler, 2 capstone, 1 spellsinger, 1 warchanter, 2 competence, 2 ship, 2 yugo

Base spell DC is 10 + spell level. So...

Otto's Sphere DC:
10 base
4 levels
1 spell focus
3 magister enchantment specialist
1 spell song trance
1 yellow marigold crown spellsinger enhancement
23 cha56
5 Sage's Mantle
2 slotted enchantment focus topaz augment
1 profane on shadowscale armor
51 TOTAL
10 mind fog
5 crushing despair
3 hypnotic pattern
69 TOTAL WITH DEBUFFS
2 greater/epic spell focus
1 past life wiz
1 bard past life
2 heighten
1 completionist
76 TOTAL MAX just for the sake of completion

I imagine you could get at least another 2-4 charisma if you're in fatesinger, adding another 1-2 DCs.

Just an option.

heimdallii
06-03-2014, 02:40 PM
like the build, was thinking about rocking something like this too when u22 drops.

are you getting the bonus for doublestrike from the shield mastery feats when wielding a buckler?

I tried this a couple weeks ago and didnt see the change, may want to double check as I was disappointed by the result - I feel it SHOULD work

Maelodic
06-03-2014, 05:52 PM
I have heard from multiple people that 60 will DC is the magic number for EE. I don't have experience with this though, so I can't confirm how accurate that is. You should be able to reach 56 cha before any ED bonuses.

Cha56: 18 base, 4 tome, 7 levels, 10 item, 3 insight, 1 exceptional, 1 human adaptability, 2 swashbuckler, 2 capstone, 1 spellsinger, 1 warchanter, 2 competence, 2 ship, 2 yugo

Base spell DC is 10 + spell level. So...

Otto's Sphere DC:
10 base
4 levels
1 spell focus
3 magister enchantment specialist
1 spell song trance
1 yellow marigold crown spellsinger enhancement
23 cha56
5 Sage's Mantle
2 slotted enchantment focus topaz augment
1 profane on shadowscale armor
51 TOTAL
10 mind fog
5 crushing despair
3 hypnotic pattern
69 TOTAL WITH DEBUFFS
2 greater/epic spell focus
1 past life wiz
1 bard past life
2 heighten
1 completionist
76 TOTAL MAX just for the sake of completion

I imagine you could get at least another 2-4 charisma if you're in fatesinger, adding another 1-2 DCs.

Just an option.

I'll play with it a bit more. A moderate/high DPS melee with an insta-kill and a reliable otto's sphere sounds absolutely ridiculous. Testing time this weekend.


like the build, was thinking about rocking something like this too when u22 drops.

are you getting the bonus for doublestrike from the shield mastery feats when wielding a buckler?

I tried this a couple weeks ago and didnt see the change, may want to double check as I was disappointed by the result - I feel it SHOULD work

I did get the doublestrike and PRR bonus with a buckler in the last implementation.

Rathic
06-03-2014, 07:14 PM
My comment on rebellion had to do with the fact that it is also a shortsword but while it does have less fort bypass than thunderforge it does have a better crit profile while swashing 13-20x3 I believe.

CThruTheEgo
06-03-2014, 07:28 PM
My comment on rebellion had to do with the fact that it is also a shortsword but while it does have less fort bypass than thunderforge it does have a better crit profile while swashing 13-20x3 I believe.

Ah, you're right. I forgot about the increased inherent crit range on it.

poltt48
06-04-2014, 01:00 AM
Actually 32% will be max dodge cap on this toon when this comes out since new buffs have a +2% dodge cap buff. Also should now always count ship buffs in your stuff. They now last 3 hours and though death.

gwonbush
06-04-2014, 06:25 PM
You might want to try wrangling things around to see if you can slot resonance somewhere: 138 sonic spell power is worth around 29 extra sonic damage a crit with Resonant Arms, though that's not worth losing devotion.

Also, Swashbuckler gets enough bonuses to the Max Dex bonus of armor (+12) that you can wear light Shadowscale without hampering your Dodge in the slightest (though depending on how the dodge cap increases work, with ship buffs you may only be able to reach 31% instead of 32%, but you have an open blue slot to up that max dex just that last little bit.) Switching from the outfit to light armor will provide an extra 16 PRR

Maelodic
06-05-2014, 04:45 AM
You might want to try wrangling things around to see if you can slot resonance somewhere: 138 sonic spell power is worth around 29 extra sonic damage a crit with Resonant Arms, though that's not worth losing devotion.

Also, Swashbuckler gets enough bonuses to the Max Dex bonus of armor (+12) that you can wear light Shadowscale without hampering your Dodge in the slightest (though depending on how the dodge cap increases work, with ship buffs you may only be able to reach 31% instead of 32%, but you have an open blue slot to up that max dex just that last little bit.) Switching from the outfit to light armor will provide an extra 16 PRR

I was planning on using the light armor- I probably should specify that in the equipment.

I originally had slotted in resonance but discovered I was missing devotion and that stung. If I was an orb wielder it'd be admittedly a lot easier but the bonuses you get from the buckler are too damn high.

Thought a rune arm bard with a ton of resonance using Music Box has plenty of potential. That 1d6 scales with sonic power too.

CThruTheEgo
06-05-2014, 06:52 AM
I'm hoping that there are some decent new bucklers with at least one red slot. Two slots would be even better since you could put both positive and sonic on the shield and not have to give up the weapon's red slot. But we won't have any idea what options we'll have until u22 goes live unfortunately.

EDIT: If you only end up with two red slots total, it might even be worth it to just give up the sonic augment and put positive on the shield and a ruby of endless night on the weapon. With expanded vorpal and a 30% increased attack rate, I'm sure neg level procs will be much better than anything another 138 sonic spell power will do.

Maelodic
06-05-2014, 08:54 AM
I'm hoping that there are some decent new bucklers with at least one red slot. Two slots would be even better since you could put both positive and sonic on the shield and not have to give up the weapon's red slot. But we won't have any idea what options we'll have until u22 goes live unfortunately.

EDIT: If you only end up with two red slots total, it might even be worth it to just give up the sonic augment and put positive on the shield and a ruby of endless night on the weapon. With expanded vorpal and a 30% increased attack rate, I'm sure neg level procs will be much better than anything another 138 sonic spell power will do.

The odds are I'll only end up with a single red slot- Guardbreaker and 10% Dodge is pretty fantastic and I can't see them switching either of those to a red slot.

Miow
06-05-2014, 10:00 AM
The odds are I'll only end up with a single red slot- Guardbreaker and 10% Dodge is pretty fantastic and I can't see them switching either of those to a red slot.

Blasting chime isn't a bad option either?

Maelodic
06-06-2014, 04:48 AM
Updated - Changes and Reasoning

Half Elf:
-+4 Stacking to saves
-Diplomatic Immunity lasts through songs and makes soloing epic elites a lot easier because it's not nearly as hard to get fascinates off. It's also great for getting to enemies while taking less damage. I think it's reducing the damage by 25% before everything else- so it's pretty swell
-Having multiple Diplomacy clickies and high diplomacy is a fantastic get out of jail free card
-I don't need an extra feat apparently
-I just like half-elves better than humans- fits my personality more :)

Inspire Recklessness for Spellsong Trance:
-I have about a hundred thousand buffs to handle and this three minute one is not worth the huge AP investment- I kept forgetting to put it on, the buff bar is too dang long and I tend to have no idea when it's not there. The timer is not synced with others like everything else, and I already have to pay attention to haste/displace/rage.
-Bards perform best in a party (pun intended) and Spellsong Trance is considerably better for the party dynamic.
-Wand and Scroll Mastery could be more than 1 point and I had more freedom to invest a bit in the half-elf tree.

Epic Toughness for Force of Personality:
-Wanting to go half-elf- this was a switch I decided to make. An alternate was Spell Focus: Enchant but something I've discovered with myself is that I hate keeping up with DCs. I like no-fail constantly. Perform checks are no-fail because the DC gets comfortably over 100.
-I'm going to ETR a bunch so if I need to switch this around, I can.

Rejuvination Cacoon for Sense Weakness:
-I didn't need anymore healing power- but I did need more damage. Sense Weakness does well for this.

Gameplay notes:
-Epic Elites are pretty easy to solo with regenerating songs, Fascinate, Diplomatic Immunity, and Guardbreaker. Fascinate never fails, and you can keep an enemy perma-stunned with guardbreaker thanks to exploit weakness.
-Epic Elites are also pretty easy to solo with just fascinate and invis. This isn't a new thing though. Difference is, you can easily kill each mob.
-No song, including Dirge, breaks stealth or invis. You could go through an entire quest stealthed/invisible and just be a buff'n'dirge bot while rarely getting hit.
-Make sure your trip actually goes off before hitting Coup de Grace- if the trip is a glancing blow it won't go off. If you're soloing via fascinate, if your trip doesn't land, just irresistible dance or siren's song and kill.
-You hate getting crowd controlled.
-Devourer’s Reaping does similar damage to Balizarde- and is better under Turn the Tide and for effects like Reign or Manslayer. It also has an extra colorless slot.
-Turn the Tide is awesome. To long of a cooldown but turns you into a god-beast. Still not sure if it activates on other's yet.
-If you're soloing, you probably want to be in Fatesinger because you're going to spam the **** out of Fascinate.
-You're good with throwing weapons- expanded crit range and exploit weakness helps.

Alternative builds I considered (Still 20 Bard):
Actually a Monk/Fighter with working quivering palm:
Shield Masteries>Power Attack/Cleave
Force of Personality>Great Cleave
Fatesinger>Legendary Dreadnaught
Sense Weakness>Reign
CHA>STR

Saves n CC n Damage:
Buckler>Orb
(Siren's Song/Irresistable Dance for insta-kill)
Half-Elf>Human
L1 Feat>SF: Enchant
Shield Masteries>Power Attack/Cleave
Force of Personality>Great Cleave
Fatesinger>Legendary Dreadnaught

Ranged Improved Precise Shot Coup De Grace (not tested - won't have time, can somebody test if ranged coup de grace applies to imp. precise shot?):
Focus on Enchant DC for long ranged controls
Mass Hold/Otto's Sphere
Line em up and kill them all at once

Lasting Inspiration>Forced Escape (Really fricken hate crowd control)

Alternate destinies that would totes work:
Divine Crusader (Kind of the melee "thing" right now)
-You get less of a bonus from celestial champion because exploit weakness applies it after one hit.
-Hjeals/hjeal amp and aoe damage is nice
-Zeal of the Rightous is Godly

Exalted Angel
-Wings
-Soundburst SLA
-Sunbolt SLA
-Reborn in Light
(Force of Personality>Maximize)

Legendary Dreadnought
-Headsman Chop/Devastating Critical
-Blitz
-Haste Boost

CThruTheEgo
06-06-2014, 06:02 AM
Ranged Improved Precise Shot Coup De Grace (not tested - won't have time, can somebody test if ranged coup de grace applies to imp. precise shot?):

It was reported in another thread that it does. :)

Maelodic
06-09-2014, 02:10 AM
Update: Switched Force of Personality with Empower Healing Spell

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
06-10-2014, 09:33 AM
Update: Switched Force of Personality with Empower Healing Spell

Very good choice, and a great bard build!

Katharra
06-11-2014, 06:14 AM
Hello,

Can I ask will this build have any problems with to-hit, since it seems str is still the stat used for it?

Maelodic
06-11-2014, 06:23 AM
Hello,

Can I ask will this build have any problems with to-hit, since it seems str is still the stat used for it?

In my testing I had no issues with to-hit. Precision along with a moderate strength does just fine. I was a bit worried about it too- but I was happily surprised to find I was hitting things just fine. Silverdance (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/418510-Silverdance-Advanced-TWF-Cleric-Build) starts with a low STR too but does alright.

CThruTheEgo
06-11-2014, 07:36 AM
Hello,

Can I ask will this build have any problems with to-hit, since it seems str is still the stat used for it?

With the changes to AC and to-hit, you only need your to hit stat (str, dex, etc.) in the 30s to hit reliably even in EE. There's really no reason why to-hit should be a problem for any build anymore.

Orberron
06-12-2014, 05:46 AM
How much would you lose/gain from losing capstone and adding 2 rogue levels instead? Perhaps more importantly, how would the build have to be changed in order for it to work if I wanted to do this?

I'm guessing i'd have to increase my INT somehow in order to get enough skill points to add trapping skills to the build? If so where would i best be taking the stat points from to increase INT? Assuming a +4 INT tome and 36pt build i'd guess I should dump STR entirely to increase my INT?

Maelodic
06-12-2014, 12:05 PM
How much would you lose/gain from losing capstone and adding 2 rogue levels instead? Perhaps more importantly, how would the build have to be changed in order for it to work if I wanted to do this?

I'm guessing i'd have to increase my INT somehow in order to get enough skill points to add trapping skills to the build? If so where would i best be taking the stat points from to increase INT? Assuming a +4 INT tome and 36pt build i'd guess I should dump STR entirely to increase my INT?

You'd lose:
2 CHA
2 DEX
1 Doublestrike
1 Attack Damage
1 Enhancement Bonus to Weapon
Improved Inspire Courage +3
50 Spell Points
1 Fourth level spell
1 Fifth level spell
2 Sixth level spell

You'd Gain:
1d6 Sneak Attack
Trap Skills
(In enhancements)
Possible Haste Boost, Venomed Blades, Damage Boost, and 2d6 more Sneak Attack

For Search/disable device while still leveling perform/balance/UMD, you'd need 10 INT as a human, or 12 INT as any other race. For open lock, you'd need an extra 2 INT or just a +2 tome at 7 for enough points for most content.

Worth it? Probably. Am I going to do it? Nope.

Orberron
06-13-2014, 04:18 AM
Worth it? Probably. Am I going to do it? Nope.

I wasn't criticizing the build or anything like that and i apologize if it seemed like i was. I'm tring my toon soon and wanted to take advantage of the trapping gear i have in my bank.

CThruTheEgo
06-13-2014, 09:19 AM
Worth it? Probably. Am I going to do it? Nope.

I'm not sure I would say it's probably worth it. If you want trap skills, then yes, it's not too much sacrifice. But that's the only real benefit you get out of it. The rogue enhancements you mentioned are also valuable but will take points away from the bard trees, which have a lot to offer, so they definitely have a cost and it really depends on the goals of the build whether that cost is worth it or not.

I wouldn't do it either but that's mainly because I play plenty of trap capable builds already and it's nice to have a break from the inventory/hotbar management that comes along with that job. :)

Kalevor
06-13-2014, 09:45 AM
I really like this build, seems very powerful and funny. Nice break down too.

Kal

Rodosto
06-13-2014, 01:42 PM
Taking 2 Rogue levels for Trapper skills is best choice for me. Also take Weapon Finesse feat to get DEX to hit with any Swashbuckler enchanted weapon (Of course Weapon Finesse alone gives DEX to hit already but no damage). It seems DEX or CHA is best stat for damage rolls. But STR gives nothing at all (depends on your build but generally no effect (unless you go for Overwhelming Critical)). DEX is better choice in my opinion.

Also 2 Rogue levels gives access to Bleed Them Out and Venomed Blades. I find Bleed is useful at the end. Also you occasionally render enemies helpless. So, taking Sneak Attack dices isn't a bad idea at all. Sickles and Rapiers good things to have. New Epic 3BC Sickle is nice. Icerazor can help with some added CC and there is nice Rapiers around. Of course both needs different sort of Improved Critical feat but Fred is lovely guy lol.

Great build by the way.

Edit: Fixed some wrongs.

Maelodic
06-13-2014, 11:37 PM
DEX is better choice in my opinion.

This build actually works similarly as DEX based - if you want no-fail reflex saves then something like this would be the way to go. You get so much from DEX and you get so much from CHA- going either with this build works rather well. DEX Based Dragonmarked Halfling would give you some sweet heals for no downside (other than not being able to carry as much) and give you a cheap way to get DEX to damage on throwing weapons- something that synergies automatically with Swashbuckler- Exploit Weakness and the stance make throwing potent even without feats.

It's hard to find feat placement for Weapon Finesse as a race other than Human- though it's not hard to get reliable to-hit with STR in the 30s and precision on all the time.


Great build by the way.

Thank you very much.


I wasn't criticizing the build or anything like that and i apologize if it seemed like i was. I'm tring my toon soon and wanted to take advantage of the trapping gear i have in my bank.

I wasn't seeing it as criticism- I was happy to provide you with an alternative.


I really like this build, seems very powerful and funny. Nice break down too.

Kal

Thank you very much Kal.


I'm not sure I would say it's probably worth it. If you want trap skills, then yes, it's not too much sacrifice. But that's the only real benefit you get out of it. The rogue enhancements you mentioned are also valuable but will take points away from the bard trees, which have a lot to offer, so they definitely have a cost and it really depends on the goals of the build whether that cost is worth it or not.

I think more than anything, haste boost is the big thing that Rogue 2 gives that is the real kicker there. Having three different action boosts should allow you to keep them going constantly through quests- especially if you twisted in Extra Action Boost. Haste Boost feels like awesome-mode to me- I can't really see it as anything else.


I wouldn't do it either but that's mainly because I play plenty of trap capable builds already and it's nice to have a break from the inventory/hotbar management that comes along with that job. :)

Yeah, yeah. Bards get tons of skill points so fitting traps in is rather easy- I like being pure though, and I'm glad I have an avenue to do that on such a diverse character.

Maelodic
06-14-2014, 01:47 AM
A lot of people have been requesting variants of my build- I'll be posting these here as they will be using the same concept. I don't really want to do a full write up or do as much gear planning- but I would like to give people a reference point or something to refer back to, I don't really want to write up things a hundred times over.

This first one is how I would make a pure bard thrower- I call this a variant because the focuses are the same: Survivability, physical damage, instakill, fascinate

True Neutral Halfling 20 Bard
......28 | 32 | 34 | 36 Point
STR 8 | 10 | 10 | 10
DEX 18 | 18 | 20 | 20 + Levels
CON 16 | 16 | 15 | 16
INT 8 | 8 | 8 | 8
WIS 8 | 8 | 8 | 8
CHA 14 | 15 | 14 | 14

Feats (In Order)
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Dragonmark of Hjeals
Proficiency: Shuriken
Improved Critical: Throwing
Improved Precise Shot
Shuriken Expertise
Quicken
Combat Archery
E-Lasting Inspiration
Inspire Excellence
E-Doubleshot

Skills (5 Points per level)
Perform, Use Magic Device, Heal, Balance, Haggle

Enhancements
Halfling - 15 Points
Cores 1-3
Skillful Thrower
Dragonmarks
Break out the Leaches

Swashbuckler - 42 Points
All Cores
On Your Toes 1
Tavern Shanties 3
Deflect Arrows 2
Fast Movement
Sword Dance
Doubleshot
Skirmisher
Resonant Arms
Wind At My Back
Second Skin 3
Exploit Weakness
Coup De Grace

Spellsinger - 17 Points
All cores up to Music of the Dead
Magical Studies 3
Lingering Songs 3
Wand Heightening 3
Wand and Scroll Mastery 3

Warchanter - 6 Points
2 Cores
The Poetic Edda 2
Enchant Weapon

Epic Destiny
Shiradi Champion
At least the following:
Whirling Wrists
Prism/Rainbow/Double Rainbow
Otto's Whistler
Nerve Venom

You could put the rest into DEX if you want- you get tasty reflex saves and even tastier higher chance to do extra shuris.

Twists:
Brace for Impact
Reign
Dance of Flowers (nothing in offhand) or Unearthly Reactions


Commentary/FAQ
Drow vs Halfling?
Halfling is the only way a Bard can get DEX to Damage with throwing- sitting at something around 54 DEX at max level, you'll really want DEX to damage and the two feats are definitely worth it. Thrower builds aren't nearly as feat starved

Dragonmarks?
Since you're already investing in the halfling tree for Skilled Thrower- a single feat gives you some pretty nice healing power. You already do pretty well with Cure Critical but you'll do even better when you get a ton of free stuff.
Break Out The Leaches alone is quite honestly worth the feat and AP cost. It's a wonderfully amazing ability.

Dance of Flowers?
You will be able to qualify for this twist if you make two changes, and follow one rule:
1. Do not wear a buckler (switch enhancement around to gain +10% Doubleshot and -10% Dodge)
2. Wear a Robe/Outfit instead of light armor (-15 PRR, similar AC)
Rule- Always use Shurikens
1.5[W] is one of the best twists out there- using this is basically dropping a ton of your defensive power for a DPS increase- which may be okay because you're ranged and can fascinate in a pinch. You get +10% doubleshot for not wearing anything in your offhand- so this can't be all bad.

How play?
Early:
Earlier levels just use whatever thrower you can get your hands on. When you get to level 8- farm out a Nightforge Spike (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Nightforge_Spike) as it's the best throwing item for a long while. Until you get your DEX up and have Shuriken Expertise, you don't really care if it's a shuriken or your mother's ashes you are throwing.

Mid Levels:
Keep using you Nightforge Spike- you won't find anything better. Put in augments to match your level in you'll be in better shape. By this point you have Coup De Grace but if you've noticed- your ability to crowd control is a bit lacking. I'd recommend finding or (probably) crafting a paralyzer so you have a way to insta-kill multiple mobs after controlling them with paralyze. You could also switch into a sword/buckler combo using the 1-2 combo to insta-kill when it's off cooldown, and then switching back.
Or you could just ignore Coup De Grace entirely until epics. Up to you.

Late:
Otto's Whistler is your crux here. Line everybody up and watch as they run toward you. Throw an Otto's Whistler and watch as they dance before you. Kill them all at the same time with a single, wonderful, coup de grace. This will work in Epic Elites- and as long as you have a +15-20 perform item, your Coup De Grace DC will still be no-fail.
You're going to want to use Shurikens at this point- where you have a lot of DEX you'll see Shuriken Expertise come into play and it will start being good. You're not going to do as much ranged damage as, say, the Shuricannon (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/423018-Shiradi-Shuricannon) but you will have heals, buffs, songs, an absolutely gross Reflex save- and most importantly, a CC>Insta-kill combo that will work reliably in Epic Elites on a line of waiting mobs.

(Reflex save on this build will be around 70- 76-78 with unearthly reactions)

Maelodic
06-14-2014, 02:47 AM
Build Update:
Sense Weakness>Soundburst SLA

gwonbush
06-14-2014, 09:40 AM
I'd debate the usefulness of Dance of Flowers on a shuriken build. While 1.5[W] is generally pretty sweet, it doesn't do all that much when [W] is 1d2.

Maelodic
06-14-2014, 08:37 PM
I'd debate the usefulness of Dance of Flowers on a shuriken build. While 1.5[W] is generally pretty sweet, it doesn't do all that much when [W] is 1d2.

I suppose your right. I forget that TF Shuri is 1d2 and not 1d4. Sometimes I question whether using Shurikens is really the best way- throwing axes get 18-20 / 4x with swashbuckling.

Shuriken expertise probably still pulls ahead but possibly not.

drsmooth
06-15-2014, 06:52 AM
I suppose your right. I forget that TF Shuri is 1d2 and not 1d4. Sometimes I question whether using Shurikens is really the best way- throwing axes get 18-20 / 4x with swashbuckling.

Shuriken expertise probably still pulls ahead but possibly not.


I have been trying to think of a good way to do an axe throwing swashbuckler, as the crit range and multiplier you can get on throwing axes is pretty good.

Throwing axes with a str-based build (with enough dex for combat archery) and the brutal throw feat might be worth looking at.

12 ftr-str-based
-power surge
-lots of feats
-allows you to be centered for dance of flowers
-overwhelming critical for x5 on 19-20

5(at least)-bard-coup de grace
-wind at my back
-blow by blow

My problem is deciding what class to finish off the split with.

1-3 Cleric/Favoured Soul will give you access to divine might which equals more to hit and damage via brutal throw, and some positive spell power

2 Rogue will get you evasion, which I love, and some SA damage

2 Ranger will get you free rapid shot, wand use and some SA

Just some thoughts :)

CThruTheEgo
06-15-2014, 08:10 AM
12 ftr-str-based
-power surge
-lots of feats
-allows you to be centered for dance of flowers
-overwhelming critical for x5 on 19-20

5(at least)-bard-coup de grace
-wind at my back
-blow by blow


You can't get one with the blade (centered non monk weapons) and coup de grace since they are both tier five.

Maelodic
06-15-2014, 08:28 AM
I have been trying to think of a good way to do an axe throwing swashbuckler, as the crit range and multiplier you can get on throwing axes is pretty good.

Throwing axes with a str-based build (with enough dex for combat archery) and the brutal throw feat might be worth looking at.

12 ftr-str-based
-power surge
-lots of feats
-allows you to be centered for dance of flowers
-overwhelming critical for x5 on 19-20

5(at least)-bard-coup de grace
-wind at my back
-blow by blow

My problem is deciding what class to finish off the split with.

1-3 Cleric/Favoured Soul will give you access to divine might which equals more to hit and damage via brutal throw, and some positive spell power

2 Rogue will get you evasion, which I love, and some SA damage

2 Ranger will get you free rapid shot, wand use and some SA

Just some thoughts :)

I can't see Dance of Flowers being all that important- definitely not important enough to sacrifice CDG and Exploit Weakness. Exploit Weakness DOES use ranged, and is hyper powerful with it. As CThru said, you can't take both T5s.

Honestly- the only two competitors I can see with this would be FvS vs Rogue. You can easily hit attack speed cap without rapid shot or even quick draw, so I wouldn't worry about that at all.
For me- I'd take FvS if you're planning on playing mostly a party, and Rogue if you're planning on mostly soloing. Your reflex save will be fairly reliable for most content so Evasion is nice to have, but CHA to STR is also super fantastic and helps things along quite a bit.

drsmooth
06-15-2014, 09:42 AM
You can't get one with the blade (centered non monk weapons) and coup de grace since they are both tier five.

ah yes forgot One with the Blade is tier 5, was thinking it was tier 4.

Maelodic
06-21-2014, 02:11 AM
With the changes to Spellsinger (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/444167-Spellsinger-Changes) and Warchanter (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/444170-Warchanter-Changes) incoming, I thought I'd give an overview of what I'd be doing when this hits. More information when it does:

Warchanter
-24 AP minimum for 20% stacking movespeed+6% permanent doublestrike
Other goodies include:
-Song of Heroism (10 AP Core)
-Fighting Spirit +30 Health (20 AP Core)
-Iced Edges: 1d6 extra cold damage.
-Action Boost: Sprint
-High Spirits (Immunities)

Spellsinger
-Same kind of thing- maybe T2 damage SLA if they make it a DoT.

With the new direction of Warchanter, I'm going to be writing up a DEX based tanky halfling version that perma buffs with Song of Heroics and Heroic Companion as I'll be duo-ing all content next life and this would be ridiculous for my melee partner. This will be written up when the trees come out, and probably be posted in a new thread.
This would buff with the following, all stacking:
+11 to-hit
+5 damage
+6 Saves
+4% Dodge
+30 PRR
+1[W] Damage
+20 resistances

He's sure going to be popular.

Maelodic
06-23-2014, 04:08 PM
I was considering running this variant until I learned that Frozen Fury will be fairly awesome on CHA based builds with the Bard pass. Frozen Fury and Northwind will keep me pure Bard but this was the only-melee build I was heavily considering for all the goodies. The DPS in this build would be comparable to Cetus- similarly survivable if you want to shell out money to use Bladeforged and a class change, alignment change, and then another class change.

This build is focused entirely on melee in Legendary Dreadnought while retaining a solid trip and insta-kill DC as well as all the bard buffs and goodies. This build is slightly less survivable than the main build but the melee damage will be insane.

Human is really for the extra feat- I'd go Drow for the implement bonus in AoV but dang it's hard to fit in all these feats and enhancement points are strapped enough as it is.

Whatever Alignment Human
16 Bard / 2 Rogue / 2 Favored Soul

Leveling Order (Doesn't really matter all that much): RRFFB~

Stats (rough estimate):
STR 64 (16 Base + 7 Levels + 4 Tome + 10 Enhancement + 1 Exceptional + 2 Insightful + 2 Ship + 4 Skaldic + 5 Primal Scream + 1 Human + 12 Divine Might)
DEX 30 (13 Base + 4 Tome + 11 Enhancement + 1 Exceptional + 1 Insight + 2 Ship)
CON 38 (14 Base + 4 Tome + 8 Enhancement + 2 Insightful + 1 Exceptional + 5 Primal Scream + 2 Ship + 2 Rage)
INT 11 (Whatever)
WIS 8 (whatever)
CHA 35 (16 Base + 4 Tome + 10 Enhancement + 2 Insightful + 1 Exceptional + 2 Ship)

Feats (In Order):
Single Weapon Fighting
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Improved Single Weapon Fighting
Improved Critical: Piercing
Shield Mastery
Greater Single Weapon Fighting
Quicken
Overwhelming Critical
Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
Improved Shield Mastery
Perfect Two Weapon Fighting

Skills:
Perform, Use Magic Device, Balance, Search, Disable Device

Enhancements:

Swashbuckler 40
All cores up to Panache
On your toes III
Tavern Shanties III
En Pointe III
Fast Movement
Doublestrike III
Elegant Footwork
Skirmisher
Resonant Arms III
Low Blow
Second Skin III
Exploit Weakness
Coup De Grace

Warpriest 12
Smite Foe
Divine Might III
Toughness III
Smite Weakness
Wall of Steel III

Thief Acrobat 11
First Core
Charming III
Acrobatics I
Haste Boost III

(Rest of enhancements are whatever- will update with solidified enhancement setup when new trees are released)

Epic Destiny:
Legendary Dreadnought
At least the following:
Extra Action Boost III
Momentum Swing III
Improved Power Attack
Lay Waste
Action Boost: Haste III
Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz

Twists
Legendary Shield Mastery
Unearthly Reactions
Reign or Primal Scream

Perform DC will be somewhere in the low 80s- still no fail.
Should be able to keep boosts up throughout the entire quest and do a ridiculous amount of damage with blitz.
Easily hit dodge cap- perma displace and haste and all that.

N-0cturn
06-23-2014, 05:58 PM
Uff, fitting in both Shield Mastery and the Overwhelming Critical line into a build like this is tough. I can see this as a really great build to solo quests, but it seems like for groups and raids a more balance approach might be better. I especially miss Inspire Excellence.

By the way, I am pretty sure that Rage and Primal Screen don't stack. Although I can't confirm it at the moment.

You could drop the Shield Mastery feats. It seems to be a popular opinion that this would be more DPS because 5% doublestrike > 5 damage. People seem to forget however that you also give up a twist slot that you could use to twist in Grim Precision or another DPS Twist.

It IS a really strong option, but on a very feat starved build I would consider it twice if it is really worth it.

Anyway let's see what the SS and WC trees will bring :)

CThruTheEgo
06-23-2014, 07:45 PM
By the way, I am pretty sure that Rage and Primal Screen don't stack. Although I can't confirm it at the moment.

I can confirm that they do not stack.

It's a solid build Maelodic. The only thing I don't like is that the str is only 2 points higher than the cha on Monte Cristo. The real advantage of going divine might str based is to get it as high as possible and if you don't do that, then I personally don't see the point in building for divine might. I'd say it needs to be in the 80s to really make it worthwhile. But this build is certainly a decent option for grinding epic past lives in the martial sphere nonetheless.

Maelodic
06-23-2014, 11:28 PM
Uff, fitting in both Shield Mastery and the Overwhelming Critical line into a build like this is tough. I can see this as a really great build to solo quests, but it seems like for groups and raids a more balance approach might be better. I especially miss Inspire Excellence.

By the way, I am pretty sure that Rage and Primal Screen don't stack. Although I can't confirm it at the moment.

You could drop the Shield Mastery feats. It seems to be a popular opinion that this would be more DPS because 5% doublestrike > 5 damage. People seem to forget however that you also give up a twist slot that you could use to twist in Grim Precision or another DPS Twist.

It IS a really strong option, but on a very feat starved build I would consider it twice if it is really worth it.

Anyway let's see what the SS and WC trees will bring :)

The only feat I'd drop is OC- the doublestrike from the shield masteries give more DPS anyway- as far as the twist, I can't think of a better offensive twist than 7% doublestrike (and 15 PRR.) Shield Masteries open this up- and give a great deal of attack and good amount of defense.
Guardbreaker is also something I'm not really willing to drop in this.


I can confirm that they do not stack.

It's a solid build Maelodic. The only thing I don't like is that the str is only 2 points higher than the cha on Monte Cristo. The real advantage of going divine might str based is to get it as high as possible and if you don't do that, then I personally don't see the point in building for divine might. I'd say it needs to be in the 80s to really make it worthwhile. But this build is certainly a decent option for grinding epic past lives in the martial sphere nonetheless.

The problem is that in order to get your STR that high- you kind of need tons of fighter levels or tons of Barb levels. STR based is for overwhelming critical and being much easier to get "up there" than CHA. CHA on a build like this doesn't really give as much- I know it's a solid option but it's just easier to pump STR and gives you a lot more damage under ranged- which even without feats is still good on a build like this.
Also- pumping CHA on a pure Bard in Divine Crusader is much easier than pumping CHA on a splashed bard in Legendary Dreadnought. You get more options to increase your STR in this setup- so this is the one I chose.
+12 to STR is not bad for a 2 splash. Jack Dancer reaches 82 STR just because of the Power Serge- most other builds get the boost from the same.

Do also note that most builds that display 80 STR also include Tensers and Yugo- which most people don't keep up.

CThruTheEgo
06-24-2014, 06:11 AM
The problem is that in order to get your STR that high- you kind of need tons of fighter levels or tons of Bard levels. STR based is for overwhelming critical and being much easier to get "up there" than CHA. CHA on a build like this doesn't really give as much- I know it's a solid option but it's just easier to pump STR and gives you a lot more damage under ranged- which even without feats is still good on a build like this.
Also- pumping CHA on a pure Bard in Divine Crusader is much easier than pumping CHA on a splashed bard in Legendary Dreadnought. You get more options to increase your STR in this setup- so this is the one I chose.
+12 to STR is not bad for a 2 splash. Jack Dancer reaches 82 STR just because of the Power Serge- most other builds get the boost from the same.

You're right that there is more synergy with str based and dreadnought than cha or dex based. Your feats are pretty tight so you're not going to fit in force of personality, which would be the only real advantage of going cha based on a build like this. And swashbucklers simply don't need to be dex based to reach an effective reflex save. So yeah, I can see the value of going divine might str based.


Do also note that most builds that display 80 STR also include Tensers and Yugo- which most people don't keep up.

On the various divine might builds I considered when developing my swashbuckler, I never included Tenser's (which I agree is unrealistic for most to keep up consistently) and Yugo pots (which are easy to keep up but just aren't really worth it if you're not using them for DCs) and I consistently reached into the 80s. Looking back at each of those builds, though, I did go 12 fighter for power surge. You could probably push your str into the 70s, but when you're blitzing a few points of damage isn't going to make much difference anyway.

Maelodic
07-14-2014, 03:13 AM
(SORRY FOR THE WALL)

This build will probably end up in a thread of it's own but I'd thought I'd outline it here in my little pillow fort for workshopping before I release it. Maelodic's new build will be the one I post- I'm going to keep this thread alive and updated as the 20 Bard Melee, but Maelodic the Hybrid will be posted in it's own thread with it's own title (even though the character Maelodic will be running it) as soon as the changes roll out and everything's defined.

With the new changes, I believe it's very possible to make a character with these aspects:
Ridiculously Good Self Healing / Raid healing possible by switching around twists
Amazing Crowd Control
Amazing spell nuking
Great single target melee DPS

This is because, with the new changes, bards can play every role- though on the DPS casting aspect they're a little behind, I believe that they can easily make it for it with the epic spell selection combined with giving mobs a constant helpless state.

This new build has the following goals in mind- in order of importance based on my recent experiences in caster lives- but still missing melee:
AoE nukes and mob clear
Single target DPS - Spell/Melee combined
Control over the battlefield with CC and extreme mobility (Wings+close to max move speed)
Fantastic self healing- also backup healer or full raid healer when configured

I hate worrying about DCs in general- Coup De Grace was fantastic for me because perform can easily hit 100%. Through CDG, I found Fascinate to be equally or more fantastic. CDG melts through a high hp mob- yes, but controlling every mob in the area I found considerably more useful especially for invis zerging.

I was worried about spell points until I found the Nether Orb- Spell Siphon when used perfectly will provide 1800 extra spell points in a half an hour. Combined with Endless Faith, running out of an adequate amount of spell points is extremely difficult using this item in Exalted Angel. It will suck to lose the dodge- however I believe with a huge focus on control combined with the self healing and mobility I won't have much of a need for a huge focus on defenses. I expect to be in melee range (either for melee, energy burst, spell siphon proc, boss fights) often- but using Divine Wrath for damage and healing while spamming my crowd control should help me safely weave in and out.

This all started with realizing I wanted abundant step in my build and not willing to go Shadar-Kai- I found some great synergies.

This build capitalizes on and uses Charisma more than any other build I can think of- and I believe it also has some great synergy. Charisma is everything- and I work to get that as high as I can without sacrificing anything horribly important.

Anywho- here is my work in progress build, including any math that I've done, which is a lot:

20 Bard Chaotic Good Drow Elf

Stats - Start | End (Rough Calculation - Using some numbers from original post just because I don't see that changing):
STR 10 | 36 (+13)
DEX 12 | 34 (+12)
CON 14 | 36 (+13)
INT 10 | 20 (+5)
Wise 8 | 25 (+7)
CHA 20 | 68 (+29)

Calculations:
STR (10 Base + 4 Tome + 8 Enhancement + 1 Exceptional + 2 Insightful + 2 Inspire Excellence + 2 Ship + 2 Rage + 4 Skaldic)
DEX (10 Base + 4 Tome + 11 Enhancement + 1 Exceptional + 2 Insight + 2 Inspire Excellence + 2 Ship)
CON (14 Base + 4 Tome + 8 Enhancement + 3 Insightful + 1 Exceptional + 2 Inspire Excellence + 2 Ship + 2 Rage)
INT (10 Base + 4 Tome + 1 Exceptional + 1 Fatesinger + 2 Inspire Excellence + 2 Ship)
Wise (8 Base + 4 Tome + 8 Enhancement + 1 Exceptional + 2 Inspire Excellence + 2 Ship)
CHA (20 Base + 7 Levels + 6 Tome + 10 Enhancement + 2 Insightful + 2 Drow + 2 Spellsinger + 2 Swashbuckler + 1 Exceptional + 2 Inspire Excellence + 2 Ship + 2 Exalted Angel + 4 Epic Destiny + 4 Capstone +2 Yugo)
Feats
Single Weapon Fighting
Maximize
Spell Focus: Enchantment or Precision (Depending on Twist Choice)
Improved Single Weapon Fighting
Improved Critical: Piercing
Greater Single Weapon Fighting
Heighten
Quicken
Inspire Excellence
Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
Empower
Lasting Inspiration

Enhancements
Drow - 7
Drow CHA II
Drow SR III

Spellsinger - 47
Core I
Magical Studies III
Lingering Songs III
Core II
Marigold Enchant
Reverberate III
Core III
Shout III
Spellsong Trance
Charisma
Enthrallment
Core IV
Sustaining Song
Arcane Might
Charisma
Core V
Song of Capering
Advanced Magical III
Prodigy II
Mass Hold SLA
Spellsong Vigor
Core VI

Warchanter - 3
Skaldic Rage
Enchant Weapon

Swashbuckler -23
Core I
Cutting Jibes III
Tavern Shanties I
On Your Toes III
Core II
Fast Movement
Deflect Arrows
Core III
Arcane Maurader
Different Tack CHA
Charisma
Core IV
Loud and Clear
Charisma

Epic Destiny - Exalted Angel
CHA I
CHA II
CHA III
CHA IV
Radiant Power III
Healing Power III
Endless Faith III
Soundburst II
Leap of Faith
Sun Bolt
Divine Wrath

Twists Setup:
[High level EEs]
Energy Burst
Sense Weakness
Enchantment Mastery

[Low level EEs - Any EN/EH]
Energy Burst
Sense Weakness
Serenity

[Raid Healer]
Energy Burst
Renewal
Rejuvenation Cacoon

[Off Destiny]
Energy Burst
Soundburst
Endless Faith

Equipment (Work in progress- haven't had time to do augments yet)
Weapon: Thunderforged Short Sword
Orb: Nether Orb
Goggles: Drow Smoke Goggles
Helmet: Dragon Masque
Necklace: Stolen Necklace
Trinket: Shamanic Fetish or Blasting Chime
Armor : Shadowscale (DC+1)
Bracers: Dumathoin's Bracers
Boots: Goatskin Boots
Gloves: Iron Mitts
Belt: GS +45 HP (Conop)
Cloak: Adamantine Cloak of Wolf
Ring: Lantern Ring
Ring: Consuming Darkness

Spell DC
Heroic Enchantment (Mass Hold/Ottos): 69
(10 Base + 6 Spell Level + 29 CHA + 1 Marigold + 2 Prodigy + 5 Nether Orb + 1 Spell Focus + 3 Enchantment Specialist + 3 Transcendental Magic + 2 Spell Focus Augment + 4 Spellsinger Cores + 1 Profane + 1 Ship Buff + 1 Spellsong Trance)

Heroic Evocation (Shout/Greater Shout): 51 (58)
(10 Base + 6 Spell Level + 29 CHA + 1 Ship Buff + 1 Spellsong Trance + 3 Transcendental Magic + 1 Profane + (5 Evocation Focus) + (2 Spell Focus Augment) )

Epic Exalted Angel Spells: 67
(10 Base + 28 Character level + 29 CHA)

Epic Energy Burst: 63
(20 Base + 14 character Level + 29 CHA)

Spell Points
525 Base
841 CHA 29
300 Exalted
250 Augment
100 Spellsinger
80 Magical Training
200 Spellsinger T5
-
2296
-
230 Endless Faith
2526 Total

Spellpower
Light: 448 (673 Maximize/Empower)
(100 Base + 47 Spellsinger + 25 Spellsinger Cap + 45 Implement + 144 Lantern Ring + 30 Radiant Power + 57 Spellcraft)

Positive: 413 (638 Maximize/Empower)
(100 Base + 47 Spellsinger + 25 Spellsinger Cap + 45 Implement + 120 Shemanic Fetish + 30 Radiant Power + 46 Heal)

Sonic: 460 (685 Maximize/Empower)
(100 Base + 47 Spellsinger + 25 Spellsinger Cap + 45 Implement + 138 Augment + 20 Swashbuckler + 85 Perform)

Electric (Energy Burst): 412
(100 Base + 47 Spellsinger + 25 Spellsinger Cap + 45 Implement + 138 Augment + 57 Spellcraft)

Spell Damage ranges with Spellpower
Sun Bolt: 538-861
Divine Wrath Light: 377-1131
Divine Wrath Heal: 179-1072

Cure Moderate, Mass SLA: 223-287
Cure Critical: 132-215 no metas | 204-332 metas
Heal: 620

Shout SLA: 438-656
Reverberate: 48-110 per tick | 384-880 total per cast
Greater Shout: 386-580 without metas | 575-863 with metas

Energy Burst: 1846-3461

cru121
07-14-2014, 04:11 AM
hybrid

this hybrid has multiple spells and SLAs. I wonder if you actually still find time to melee. What if you completely embraced the caster side (freeing feats / gear slots for more DC/spellpower/whatever)? Though it seems that you have enough feats for everything.

Maelodic
07-14-2014, 04:40 AM
this hybrid has multiple spells and SLAs. I wonder if you actually still find time to melee. What if you completely embraced the caster side (freeing feats / gear slots for more DC/spellpower/whatever)? Though it seems that you have enough feats for everything.

I really have a few problems with fully embracing the caster side:

-Bards don't really get solid DPS spells or options to go full caster- the only damage spells they have are Shout and Greater Shout, which can be easily shut down. They don't get all that much to boost spell damage.
-Bards don't get a ton of spell points.
-I like to have options other than spells for damage when enemies are resistant- and definitely more options for bosses.
-Melee takes advantage of the massive CHA in the best way I know how, and a hybrid build supports this. Sense Weakness is good for both, staying in range of Divine Wrath takes advantage of being in melee range, energy burst is right in melee range.
-My Enchant DC is definitely good enough and unless you count Greater Shout, I really have no reason to put anything else into spells. Spell power is pretty peaked out- I don't believe I could fit all the feats in, in exchange for melee, but if I could I'd be missing:
About 400 spell points from Mental Toughness
2 Enchant DCs or Evo DCs from further spell focus
8 Spell Penetration from feats

I'm still working on equipment- but I don't see a huge benefit to going sole caster. Even on my infinite spell point Sorc, I don't like going full caster. I'm constantly wishing I had a melee weapon in my hands to swing at stuff in between blowing everything up, and I often will swing anyway.

As far as finding time to melee- the important spells in this are:
Divine Wrath
Sun Bolt
Energy Burst
Soundburst
Reverberate
Mass Hold

The staple aoe spells are:
Divine Wrath (20 Second Cooldown)
Energy Burst (30 Second Cooldown)

Sun Bolt will be used mostly for ranged, Reverberate will be mostly used for bosses.
I have to take advantage of Mass Hold sometime- the aoe spells are big cooldowns and the only other followup spell I'd have is Shout, which EE mobs are going to save against pretty regularly. I can still spam it, but I'm still going to get plenty of time to melee.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
07-14-2014, 06:48 PM
I'm still going to get plenty of time to melee.

You are obviously still well entrenched in the decision making process, how do you feel about losing the shield mastery feats in particular?

Maelodic
07-14-2014, 08:58 PM
You are obviously still well entrenched in the decision making process, how do you feel about losing the shield mastery feats in particular?

It's... fine. Considering I'll be more castery than melee I think it's an okay trade off.

CThruTheEgo
07-15-2014, 05:58 AM
The new build looks solid Maelodic. Drow is looking like a strong choice. I'm a big fan of highly synergistic builds such as caster/melee hybrids that use the same stat for DCs and dps. You've definitely found a solid combo here.

slarden
07-15-2014, 02:44 PM
I built something similar last Saturday except without the hybrid melee aspect. EA destiny with energy burst twisted and heavy reliance on low-cost SLAs.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/445110-The-Official-Spellsinger-Lamannia-Feedback-Thread?p=5378167&viewfull=1#post5378167

It worked really well for me except for the lack of evasion. My most recent thoughts are to go 16 Bard, 2 rogue, 2 fvs for evasion and sp regen/crits from fvs. I lose a little bit on DC, but fvs provides some nice SP regeneration and after running a CHA-based favored soul that relied on a much smaller spell selection I think dps will be fine and CC: more than makes up for lack of blade barrier and heal spell which is about all I am losing. Also by leveraging the fvs tree I can boost my spell points a bit and spell power.

I am also working on a cha-based PDK build that is 12 bard, 6 Fighter, 2 rogue that is fully melee but in the EA with Energy burst twisted in for some additional cha-based spell damage. I am completely giving up the dc/cc aspect except for some of the stuff I don't have to work for like low blow, procs from my shield, fascinate, etc. This is a flavor build basically that works well with the groups I run with, but also leverages off some of the great ideas from the 12/6/2 builds previously posted. I like your hybrid idea and might try that at some point.

For self healing, I am really liking the mass cure moderate in EA with maximize, empower and empower heal on it. The cooldown is slow, but it's close to a heal spell without empower healing.

I would love to play a pure bard 20 CC specialist with an 80+ enchant DC, but I don't have an available toon to try it at the moment.

Bards are fun again...

Maelodic
07-16-2014, 05:21 PM
New tree notes:

Mass Hold-
This costs 50 SP and the animation is doubled as an SLA. Horn of Thunder was far more useful as a spell as it does large amounts of damage, has a lower cooldown, and costs considerably less spell points. Quick resolved the speed problem but the cooldown was huge and you run out of spell points rather quickly.

Horn of Thunder-
This does a ton of damage- they've changed it to 1d4+1 (x2) per caster level- so before any kind of spell power it's damage range at 25 is 100-125
With metamagics and 400 spell power on each, that'd be 625-781 - which can crit. It's a great nuke and I'll be taking it instead of Mass Hold should I go Spellsinger.

Shout-
This will be far too powerful in heroics and decent in epics. It has the same scaling as Fireball- and bards can get about as much sonic spellpower as a sorc can get fire spellpower so you'll see some great uses for this. An SLA with equal level as Fireball at T3 will dominate early heroics and all bards that take maximize/empower should get this for leveling regardless of whether or not it's in your final build.

Reverberate-
This does a great amount of DoT damage to bosses and I love that they added it.

Song of Capering-
Fantastic for beholders but not horribly useful otherwise.

Sustaining Song-
This is definitely the most powerful support ability in the bard tree. It procs a pretty large heal when you sing it and then continues to keep your part up. This is a fantastic ability especially coupled with Warchanter.

New Capstone-
Appropriate and worth getting the capstone for.



Warchanter-
Frozen Fury/Spinning Ice-
Frozen Fury mimics stunning fist, and spinning ice is really, really powerful for zerging or large groups. Spinning Ice's range is pretty small, however- going bastard sword/bladeforged would help increase it but you're not going to freeze more than one layer of enemies. The DCs are about as hard to get up as Stunning Fist- though since you can use CHA to damage, it makes it a bit easier to contribute to that stat in comparison to a Monk.

Northwind-
They increased the cooldown of this to 18 seconds- it's essentially a waste of 6 AP at it's current implementation as it rarely goes off. Any vorpal that you get regardless of if it's a killing blow, they save, or they're already frozen will proc the cooldown so this goes off maybe once or twice in a quest.

Reckless Chant/Ironskin Chant-
This is what the abilities should have been originally and are both as helpful as before- Reckless a bit more so because of it's now lack of debuff

Expeditious Chant-
Oh mah word I love this ability so much. Zoom!

Chant of Power-
This is fantastic- a great support for any team and bolsters quite a bit of stuff up. The personal buff is great too- increasing whatever you go with.



Original post will be getting an update soon. Stay tuned.

Jhaeran
07-16-2014, 06:56 PM
Looking forward to it, appreciate the detail and even/especially the subjective opinions.

CThruTheEgo
07-17-2014, 08:20 AM
New tree notes:

snip...

Nice assessment Maelodic. Looking at the new trees yesterday, I wasn't overly impressed. There's a few key enhancements that definitely open a lot of doors for bards, and I think you pretty much covered those, but the trees are not like swashbuckler in that you just want to take nearly everything. I still think there are a lot of meh abilities in them, but the useful enhancements that are there are incredibly useful. Looks like up to 10 enchantment DCs from spellsinger.

I think you're right about the value of maximize and empower. That's precisely the problem I'm having on Monte Cristo – I don't want to drop any feats for maximize and empower. The build lacks a solid AoE option and without maximize and empower I'm not sure the SLAs are really going to fulfill that purpose. I want more DCs, which means spending more in spellsinger, but I tend to favor melee and would prefer to spend in warchanter. So I haven't found the balance yet.

Nayus
07-17-2014, 09:25 AM
Nice assessment Maelodic. Looking at the new trees yesterday, I wasn't overly impressed. There's a few key enhancements that definitely open a lot of doors for bards, and I think you pretty much covered those, but the trees are not like swashbuckler in that you just want to take nearly everything. I still think there are a lot of meh abilities in them, but the useful enhancements that are there are incredibly useful. Looks like up to 10 enchantment DCs from spellsinger.

I think you're right about the value of maximize and empower. That's precisely the problem I'm having on Monte Cristo – I don't want to drop any feats for maximize and empower. The build lacks a solid AoE option and without maximize and empower I'm not sure the SLAs are really going to fulfill that purpose. I want more DCs, which means spending more in spellsinger, but I tend to favor melee and would prefer to spend in warchanter. So I haven't found the balance yet.
http://ddowiki.com/page/En_Pointe

CThruTheEgo
07-17-2014, 09:48 AM
http://ddowiki.com/page/En_Pointe

What's your point?

TeacherSyn
07-17-2014, 11:31 AM
You are obviously still well entrenched in the decision making process, how do you feel about losing the shield mastery feats in particular?

I'm a neophyte to this Bard business, as you certainly know, but I did want to chime in on how the Bard Swashbuckler really seems to make the Shield Mastery feats work for defense, especially if the Swashbuckler shield from Crystal Cove is added. As implied, I've got the first of the two feats trained.

With the U22.2 update I'm retraining Rough & Ready for more PRR and AC from Warchanter. With my L12 CC Swashbuckler shield and her DEX-based build, my Flynncletica is seeing 16% Doublestrike (boosted to maybe 45% with an Action Boost). This will go up more as the SB tree grows.

I'd have to look at the PRR again (I think I see 10 there now) but, combined with 20% Dodge (capped now but will go up), Flynn has great miss-chance and mitigation powers for her level (with Displacement available for emergencies) of 20% Dodge/20%-50% Blur, 51-54 AC, more with some Natural Armor coming up at L15. I'm hoping to work in some Ghostly but I don't see it happening before Epic, either an epic Ring of Shadows but definitely with Shadowdancer training.

My CC, using dancing balls, are OK but I'm pushing Flynn to be a charm-master and use Fascinate to help with mob-control. I'm very happy with the insane attack speed of 20% melee alacrity (Haste adds 15% for 35% now, Greater SWF will max this at 30/55% hasted).

Flynncletica's speed, protections, undispellable Bard songs and miss-chance make her a powerful Monk-like fighter without any Monk levels. I'm digging it.

For the melee-oriented, I want to go to the full Shield Mastery feats to open up adding Legendary Shield Mastery from Legendary Dreadnought as Flynn will likely train no fewer than 4 EDs in life #1. We're really feat-starved to add metamagics (not that I'm fully keyed on how that will hurt later). The SB miss effects that cause knockdowns help. I often shield-block to start a fight before I retaliate with fatal results. I'm using the Halfling build and not Egos right now, but I've taken pointers from it.

I vote for getting a "FINISH HIM!" emote for the SBs. :)

unbongwah
07-17-2014, 12:52 PM
I'm very happy with the insane attack speed of 20% melee alacrity (Haste adds 15% for 35% now, Greater SWF will max this at 30/55% hasted).
Uhhh, how are you adding 30% (GSWF) + 15% (Haste) and getting 55%?

CThruTheEgo
07-17-2014, 01:13 PM
I'm very happy with the insane attack speed of 20% melee alacrity (Haste adds 15% for 35% now, Greater SWF will max this at 30/55% hasted).

Are you talking about the 20% melee alacrity from Madstone Boots? Melee alacrity and haste (as well as the speed effect found on items and the blinding speed epic feat) do not stack since they provide the same type of bonus. GSWF provides 30%, haste (or speed on items or blinding speed) provides 15% for a total of 45% attack speed. Or you can get the 20% from Madstone Boots for a max of 50%.


For the melee-oriented, I want to go to the full Shield Mastery feats to open up adding Legendary Shield Mastery from Legendary Dreadnought as Flynn will likely train no fewer than 4 EDs in life #1.

Legendary shield mastery is a tier 2 in unyielding sentinal.


I vote for getting a "FINISH HIM!" emote for the SBs. :)

LOL, that would be a good sound effect for coup de grace.

Maelodic
07-17-2014, 01:52 PM
I think you're right about the value of maximize and empower. That's precisely the problem I'm having on Monte Cristo – I don't want to drop any feats for maximize and empower. The build lacks a solid AoE option and without maximize and empower I'm not sure the SLAs are really going to fulfill that purpose. I want more DCs, which means spending more in spellsinger, but I tend to favor melee and would prefer to spend in warchanter. So I haven't found the balance yet.

I honestly believe a maximized/empowered reverberate will add more single target boss DPS than 15% more doublestrike though depending on your gear that may not exactly be true. If you can get your spellpower up to 300-400, it's ~500-800 damage per cast, which takes probably 2-3 swings. It frees up a twist, which especially on Monte could be used for a solid DC fire Energy Burst.

You have a ton of Charisma and you're using it for enchantment and DPS- there doesn't seem to be reason not to use it for some nukes too unless you're looking for more melee power via sense weakness or grim precision (Sense Weakness would work great in combination to your CC.)

I know it's hard to find slots for spellpower, but as your solid AoE option, have you considered Celestial Bombardment? The damage doesn't have any saving through, it's just the knockdown. I know it's a lot of spell points but you aren't really using those for much and if you slot in fire spellpower it'd also help with energy burst. It's not effected by Maximize/Empower as well- so that combined with Energy Burst can give you some solid burst aoe with very little drawbacks.

Maximize/Empower will add much more to heroics than endgame- and at endgame will add more single target DPS than multi unless you go EA, which you already have in abundance. It adds a lot more healing than anything else.

The shield mastery feats I'm finding only worth it for the ability to use another twist slot, and like feats on a bard, twist slots are way valuable. With the new PRR from Warchanter I may just drop them entirely.

I'm still not sure if I'm going to keep Max/Empower- but going hybrid comes automatically with CHA so dedicating a bunch of feats to it doesn't have me convinced. I dislike the mass hold SLA and that was kind of the glue of the hybrid build along with sense weakness so that's fallen apart. Horn of Thunder is fantastic as a dedicated caster but I'm not one of those either.

Frozen Fury and Sense Weakness should still be super fantastic- and I may take advantage of that, though given it's DC base and my aversion to DC based abilities, I may not build for it either.



Flynncletica's speed, protections, undispellable Bard songs and miss-chance make her a powerful Monk-like fighter without any Monk levels. I'm digging it.

Bards have really become monk-like without monk levels and a bit more simplified. I find myself missing abundant step a lot but I'm hoping cannith boots of propulsion will fill the gap for those harder to reach places =P
I really like em.

Miow
07-17-2014, 02:16 PM
Hey,

I'm trin my guy for a bard life 1-20 then tr again, i'm trying to decide if i should go pure bard or considering a 16b-2fighter-2fvs cha based bard or 16b-2rg-2fighter...i'm so confused but i have to have this figured out by tomorrow ...elllp.

K i'm also looking at a 18bard/2 fighter would be feasible?

CThruTheEgo
07-18-2014, 08:00 AM
Hey,

I'm trin my guy for a bard life 1-20 then tr again, i'm trying to decide if i should go pure bard or considering a 16b-2fighter-2fvs cha based bard or 16b-2rg-2fighter...i'm so confused but i have to have this figured out by tomorrow ...elllp.

K i'm also looking at a 18bard/2 fighter would be feasible?

There are an overwhelming number of possibilities, many of which are specialized to emphasize different attributes, with no one build being obviously superior over them all. All of the options you listed are a possibility, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. Most of those options already have detailed builds here in the bard forums that you can take a look at to see what they're capable of and help you figure out exactly what you want. If you have the time to customize and perfect your own build, I would do so. But if you don't have time to plan out a full build, then I would recommend following one so no mistakes are made.

CThruTheEgo
07-18-2014, 08:25 AM
Thanks for the feedback Maelodic. That gives me a lot to think about.


I honestly believe a maximized/empowered reverberate will add more single target boss DPS than 15% more doublestrike though depending on your gear that may not exactly be true. If you can get your spellpower up to 300-400, it's ~500-800 damage per cast, which takes probably 2-3 swings. It frees up a twist, which especially on Monte could be used for a solid DC fire Energy Burst.

Dropping the shield mastery feats for maximize/empower is a possibility. My playstyle tends to favor melee, but if the power gained is enough then I wouldn't mind making the switch.


I know it's hard to find slots for spellpower, but as your solid AoE option, have you considered Celestial Bombardment? The damage doesn't have any saving through, it's just the knockdown. I know it's a lot of spell points but you aren't really using those for much and if you slot in fire spellpower it'd also help with energy burst. It's not effected by Maximize/Empower as well- so that combined with Energy Burst can give you some solid burst aoe with very little drawbacks.

I was thinking the extra DCs in spellsinger would allow me to drop some cha in divine crusader to pick up some of the other abilities. I'll definitely consider celestial bombardment. That plus energy burst would give me some solid AoE options. I might do this and just keep the shield mastery feats to keep melee maxed.


Frozen Fury and Sense Weakness should still be super fantastic- and I may take advantage of that, though given it's DC base and my aversion to DC based abilities, I may not build for it either.

I've already decided I won't be building for frozen fury. I don't see the DC being sufficient at endgame and I don't want to bother slotting stunning gear.

TeacherSyn
07-18-2014, 10:54 AM
Uhhh, how are you adding 30% (GSWF) + 15% (Haste) and getting 55%?

My math sucks. It should be 45%. Thanks.

Miow
07-18-2014, 11:25 AM
There are an overwhelming number of possibilities, many of which are specialized to emphasize different attributes, with no one build being obviously superior over them all. All of the options you listed are a possibility, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. Most of those options already have detailed builds here in the bard forums that you can take a look at to see what they're capable of and help you figure out exactly what you want. If you have the time to customize and perfect your own build, I would do so. But if you don't have time to plan out a full build, then I would recommend following one so no mistakes are made.

Well i've decided to try a 18 bard 2 fighter split, why not right? Mostly melee with some support spell casting, but i'm wondering if going power attack/cleave/great cleave route is best...or i could just go with precision...i'm wondering what feats you guys would chose for that split from 1-20?

Maelodic
07-19-2014, 02:15 AM
Well i've decided to try a 18 bard 2 fighter split, why not right? Mostly melee with some support spell casting, but i'm wondering if going power attack/cleave/great cleave route is best...or i could just go with precision...i'm wondering what feats you guys would chose for that split from 1-20?

I'd recommend looking at my pure melee variant (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443015-U22-Maelodic-Merrily-Murdering-the-Masses-(20-Bard)?p=5365375&viewfull=1#post5365375) for inspiration on this- you could follow that exactly and add two more flavor feats and it's probably something very similar to what you're looking for.

Maelodic
07-19-2014, 02:40 AM
With the new changes, this thread is actually going to split off from what I'll actually be running.

I'll be running a Warchanter for the sole purpose of buffing my duo partner. I'll be updating this thread with the enhancements I'd use but will otherwise not really be updating this much as the build I'd use solo or play without a dedicated group is extremely similar to CThruTheEgo's Count with the rework just because of how easy it is as this point to get enchant DCs way up there- enough that it does not warrant another thread.

I will still be offering advice, help, and further build variants including what my Warchanter ends up being. This thread has become more of a conglomerate of brainstorming rather than a specific build- and I will be updating it to keep it that way.

Expect an update to the main post soon.

It's too bad my hybrid was inefficient- I had a neato picture ready for it so the build wasn't all unorganized:
http://maelodic.com/mm.png

Maelodic
07-19-2014, 03:30 AM
Alright- first post has been updated.

Klixen
07-20-2014, 06:04 AM
Regarding Legendary Shield Mastery, I seem to be able to twist it before I get the shield feats, as long as it was selected in the US destiny earlier when the char did have the feats. I did not test if it provides any actual benefits though.