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LuKaSu
05-12-2014, 08:36 PM
This idea for a Paladin enhancement tree functions with the idea that Paladins work the best in groups. The theme is centered around the idea that more people in the group will cause this Paladin to perform better, and he will cause his group to perform better as well.


Core
1 - Leadership Training - You receive +1 to your Intimidate skill, and all allies within Aura range (roughly the size of the Haste spell) receive 1 AC for each core ability taken in this tree. (Total of +6 Intimidate and 6 AC boost at cap)
3 - Officer Training -- Increase CHA or STR by 1.
6 - Brothers in Arms - Each Ally within Aura range receives +1 Damage. The Paladin receives +1 Damage for each Player Character ally within Aura range (stacks up to 3) Lasts 4 seconds. Reapplies every 3 seconds.
12 - Unending Resolve - Grants the "Slippery Mind" feat. Will saves are increased by 2 when below 50% hitpoints.
18 - Positive Energy Burst - As per the Radiant Servant, Level 6 Core ability type, but using Paladin Levels
20 - In the Time of Need - Gain +2 Strength. Damage bonuses and stack limits from "Brothers in Arms" are doubled.

Tier 1
-- Improved Leadership Training - Your Intimidate and Diplomacy skills are increased by (1/2/3)
-- Shield Other -- While you block, All Allies in Aura range receive 3/6/10 PPR
-- Tough as Nails -- Gain 5/10/15 Hit Points
-- Honesty -- +1 hit against evil opponents

Tier 2
-- To the Last Man - The Paladin gains +1 Damage, +2 AC, and +3 PPR when in Aura range of a dead or incapacitated ally. (Stacks up to 1/3/5 times)
-- Compassion for the Fallen -- Paladin level counts as 1/2/3 levels higher when calculating damage for Lay on Hands.
-- Battefield Triage -- Heal skill is increased by 1/2/3
-- Humility -- +1 hit against evil opponents

Tier 3
-- Watch Each Other's Back -- Use an Action Boost to give each Ally within Aura Range a 2/4/6% Dodge Bonus for 20 seconds.
-- Advanced Martial Training -- Receive +1/2/2 Attack bonus for all Martial Weapons, and 0/0/1 Damage bonus.
-- Obvious Determination -- Intimidate skill and Will Saves are increased by 1/2/3.
-- Truth -- +1 hit against evil opponents


Tier 4
-- Calling in the Cavalry -- Each Ally within Aura range receives a 5%/10% movement speed increase
-- Advanced Officer Training -- Increase all CHA-based skills by 1/2/3.
-- Together, We Shall Conquer -- Each Ally within Aura range receives a Flanking Damage bonus of +2/+3/+4.
-- Honor -- +1 hit against evil opponents

Tier 5
-- Energy of the Zealot -- Your Positive Spellpower is increased by 10/15/20 and you gain 20/40/40 maximum spellpoints. At rank 3, you gain the Magical Training feat.
-- Phallanx Formation -- Each Ally within Aura Range gains 5%/10%/15% Fortification and 5%/10%/15% boost to the effectiveness of their shields
-- Into the Fray! - Increases your movement speed by your Charisma Modifier %, capped by Paladin level. (Example: with a charisma modifier of 10, you increase your movement speed by 10%)
-- Faith -- When wielding your religion's favored weapon, it gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement Bonus.
-- Hope for the Hopeless - Adds the spell "Good Hope" to the Paladin Spell list as a level 3 spell

HatsuharuZ
05-12-2014, 10:29 PM
I like the way you think, but you should focus more on the paladin's personal DPS. +1 to hit bonus isn't much. Add "+1 damage" to that, and maybe increased smite evil regeneration. I would also suggest adding "energy of the zealot" line, which if I recall correctly was the paladin spell point line. On tier 3 have energy of the zealot give the Magical Training feat.

Also, paladins already have an ability similar to Remove Fear called "Rally" in the Knight of the Chalice tree.

LuKaSu
05-13-2014, 12:35 AM
Tier 3
-- Encouragement in Battle - SLA of the "Remove Fear" spell. Spell Cost 6/3/0.

(snip)

Tier 5
-- Medical Assistance -- Your Positive Spellpower is increased by 10/15/20 and you gain 20/40/40 maximum spellpoints. At rank 3, you gain the Magical Training feat.



I like the way you think, but you should focus more on the paladin's personal DPS. +1 to hit bonus isn't much. Add "+1 damage" to that, and maybe increased smite evil regeneration. I would also suggest adding "energy of the zealot" line, which if I recall correctly was the paladin spell point line. On tier 3 have energy of the zealot give the Magical Training feat.

Also, paladins already have an ability similar to Remove Fear called "Rally" in the Knight of the Chalice tree.

Cool, thanks for the feedback.

1) Good catch with the Rally, thanks a lot. Replaced Remove Fear SLA with "Watch Each Other's Backs" Dodge bonus Aura.
2) I was trying to avoid Smites in this tree, as they are a big focus in the KotC Tree. Also, I doubt Turbine would let us put regenerating smites in a Heroic tree, since they've put it in Unyielding Sentinel.
3) I suppose I could just rename my Tier 5 spellpoint enhancement as Energy of the Zealot?
4) Although I could see the temptation of putting a bunch of +1 damages in the tree, I'm sort of fond of the idea that this tree encourages group tactics. With the "Brothers in Arms" Core Enhancement, we get up to +3 Damage (at level 6) playing in a group, and that bonus jumps up to a possible +6 at cap. There is +1 more in the Advanced Martial Training, plus flanking bonus farther down the tree. So there are several opportunities to add straight damage. Add on top of that the group DPS that is added (also through the Flanking Bonus, Brothers in Arms, and the capstone) and we come out to a significant amount.

Thanks. I've made a couple modifications to the original. Maybe a Dev will see it and be inspired to bring some attention to Paladins! They did it for Bards, so it's possible!

xaniri
05-13-2014, 01:57 AM
I like your idea! And I think you have just the right name for this tree as well. Keep the focus on the group tactics, as that goes with the name and how i picture a paladin

Sidewaysgts86
05-13-2014, 04:02 AM
I like your idea! And I think you have just the right name for this tree as well. Keep the focus on the group tactics, as that goes with the name and how i picture a paladin

LOVE this idea. I had quite a few very similar ideas, but never polished it out to such an extent (LOVE the names you used, btw). 2 suggestions for your tree however, that I think would fit nicely with the paladin and this concept as a whole. Id like the honesty/humility/truth/faith line you have building up, to be +1 enhancement value each tier to your deities favored weapon line the entire way up- Which in all honesty, is just similar (ok its a clone) to what the war priests already have going on. Maybe to add some slightly different perks instead and if you want to spice it up and not be a total copy of the war priest line- (as you were doing already somewhat), have this enhancement value boost only work against evil creatures- but id like to see some extra/different perks if this was the case. Ie have the top tier of this ability have multiple levels to boost, first level gets you that final +1 enhancement againt evil, second level gets you +1 to your weapons crit multiplier on a 19/20, third tire adds +1 to crit range (Maybe make this crit range boost add in AFTER things like keen/improved crit come into play- so if your weapon crits on 19/20, and has keen, or you have imp crit for that weapon- Itd crit on a 16, 17-20 from the keen/impcrit, than +1 to that). This miiight sound like a bit much- But keep in mind this would be a top tier ability, have a hefty ap cost, and if youre saaaay a human following the sov host rocking longswords, youre running around with a weapon that crits on 18-20 with a x3 multiplier, which is basically just a slightly better khopesh (slightly better being used loosely here- as while it has an expanded crit range over the khopesh by 1, that 3x crit that itd share with the khopesh only works on rolls of 19 or 20.. a nice balance I think?) that requires a lot of investment and only works on evil things. I think this might be a nice step in the right direction for paladin dps (which is by many considered to lack) and fits "in line" with the class, Situational, specialized, but powerful when appropriate.

Second- I think the tree needs a bit more "active" abilities/clickies. To keep in line with this tree, and how I think the paladins "should" work (temporary bad-ass buffers), id love to see some active abilities for example that temporarily boost the aura of the paladin- Maybe making them consume a use of turn undead. Ie activate this ability and for the next 20/40/60 seconds *do something awesome that builds up with each tier* (maybe its just a simple +1/2/3 damage boost to everyone in the aura, but you get the idea). Ie, powerful but temporary buffs to you and your party.

LuKaSu
05-13-2014, 09:36 AM
LOVE this idea. I had quite a few very similar ideas, but never polished it out to such an extent (LOVE the names you used, btw). 2 suggestions for your tree however, that I think would fit nicely with the paladin and this concept as a whole. Id like the honesty/humility/truth/faith line you have building up, to be +1 enhancement value each tier to your deities favored weapon line the entire way up- Which in all honesty, is just similar (ok its a clone) to what the war priests already have going on. Maybe to add some slightly different perks instead and if you want to spice it up and not be a total copy of the war priest line- (as you were doing already somewhat), have this enhancement value boost only work against evil creatures- but id like to see some extra/different perks if this was the case. Ie have the top tier of this ability have multiple levels to boost, first level gets you that final +1 enhancement againt evil, second level gets you +1 to your weapons crit multiplier on a 19/20, third tire adds +1 to crit range (Maybe make this crit range boost add in AFTER things like keen/improved crit come into play- so if your weapon crits on 19/20, and has keen, or you have imp crit for that weapon- Itd crit on a 16, 17-20 from the keen/impcrit, than +1 to that). This miiight sound like a bit much- But keep in mind this would be a top tier ability, have a hefty ap cost, and if youre saaaay a human following the sov host rocking longswords, youre running around with a weapon that crits on 18-20 with a x3 multiplier, which is basically just a slightly better khopesh (slightly better being used loosely here- as while it has an expanded crit range over the khopesh by 1, that 3x crit that itd share with the khopesh only works on rolls of 19 or 20.. a nice balance I think?) that requires a lot of investment and only works on evil things. I think this might be a nice step in the right direction for paladin dps (which is by many considered to lack) and fits "in line" with the class, Situational, specialized, but powerful when appropriate.

Second- I think the tree needs a bit more "active" abilities/clickies. To keep in line with this tree, and how I think the paladins "should" work (temporary bad-ass buffers), id love to see some active abilities for example that temporarily boost the aura of the paladin- Maybe making them consume a use of turn undead. Ie activate this ability and for the next 20/40/60 seconds *do something awesome that builds up with each tier* (maybe its just a simple +1/2/3 damage boost to everyone in the aura, but you get the idea). Ie, powerful but temporary buffs to you and your party.

Thanks! One thing I was trying to accomplish with this tree was a way to make it shine while pure classed, splashed, or multiclassed. With Core abilities as they are, if you want to focus on personal DPS, 12 BC / 8 Kensai would give you the sweet damage and Crit bonuses you're looking for, while still giving you the determination (Will boosts and slippery mind) that are so lacking in Warriors. To go less Paladin, the Brothers in Arms core ability would be a great deep splash for a 12 Something/6 Pal/2 Evasion type build. If you want the whole selection of Righteous Warrior type upgrades, you can take 15 BC / 5 Warpriest and keep top tier Paladin buff spells, while getting a total of 5 Enhancement bonuses to your diety weapon. And for all the 2 Level splashers out there, Compassion for the Fallen is a nice boost for those limited panic moments with a boost to Lay on Hands.

About the active stuff, I agree. Maybe "Watch Each Other's Back" should be fueled by Action Boosts, and give 2/4/6% Dodge bonuses instead or Phallanx Formation could be an Active Skill. (Hopefully, not both, as Action Boosts are a bit limited on most builds)

Uska
05-13-2014, 10:48 AM
Paladin aura shouldn't grant damage they should only grant protection of some kind.

Psiandron
05-13-2014, 11:30 AM
I really like what you're attempting here LuKaSu.

My main criticism I think is that your bonuses could sometimes be larger.


Shield Other- I would increase the PRR values to 3/6/10, which would make it have more of a real impact on people's PRR.

Honesty- +1 to hit and damage. Paladins do generally have less of a to hit than other melee classes, but I'm still not spending AP to just increase to hit. Although, this could be okay, if...

Humility- you were to make this +1 to damage instead of to hit.

Truth- I'd look at this as the same thing as Honesty and humility. Perhaps Truth being the prereq for Honor (as Honesty being the prereq for Humility) and offering +1/2/3 to to hit...

Honor- while honor yields +1/2/3 to damage.

Faith- I'd kind of like to see this lower down, as it'd be a sweet thing for pallies focusing on other trees to dip in for.




Regardless though, outstanding and well thought out effort LuKaSu.




Paladin aura shouldn't grant damage they should only grant protection of some kind.

I get where you coming from here Uska, but I have to disagree. While a paladin is a defender of the faithful, he is also a murderous zealot who will rain down death and destruction upon those who he sees as opposing his faith. Imo anyway. So, I say keep the shared bonuses to damage.

HatsuharuZ
05-13-2014, 12:38 PM
Whoops, I guess I didn't read closely enough. ><

Might I suggest adding a feat line that gives various defensive bonuses when the user activates intimidate? Like stacking DR/evil, PRR, AC? Or maybe successfully intimidated enemies take penalties to attack, skills, DCs perhaps?

LuKaSu
05-13-2014, 12:41 PM
I really like what you're attempting here LuKaSu.

My main criticism I think is that your bonuses could sometimes be larger.


Shield Other- I would increase the PRR values to 3/6/10, which would make it have more of a real impact on people's PRR.



Wholeheartedly agree. +1 PPR isn't really going to help much, especially since when you are blocking, you're not DPSing. Changing the OP.

PsychoBlonde
05-13-2014, 02:00 PM
Looks like a bunch of mediocre quasi-tank stuff with some bard touches. Meh. This is the stuff Paladin really needs the LEAST of, right now. Stalwart is fine for tank bonuses, it's the Knight of the Chalice tree that's unspeakably awful for DPS. It has some nice ADJUNCT dps and tank abilities and should really be the equivalent to the Deepwood Sniper tree on Ranger--the halfway point between The Good Tank Tree and The Good DPS Tree. But we don't have a Good DPS Tree for paladin right now, so it's tank or bust.

What I'd suggest doing is putting in a bunch of stuff that turns sword-and-board into a VIABLE dps option--particularly instead of this incredibly sad +1 to hit you've got all over the place (which NOBODY needs). With the forthcoming Single Weapon Fighting line, it'd be IDEAL to have an ability that lets you SWF WITH a shield (which, as of now, you cannot do). This would fit paladin PERFECTLY. Add in some doublestrike and a cha-based tactic and you've got a viable tree that brings something to the table AND boosts up the existing trees by creating synergy with the existing abilities.

Psiandron
05-13-2014, 02:27 PM
Looks like a bunch of mediocre quasi-tank stuff with some bard touches. Meh. This is the stuff Paladin really needs the LEAST of, right now. Stalwart is fine for tank bonuses, it's the Knight of the Chalice tree that's unspeakably awful for DPS. It has some nice ADJUNCT dps and tank abilities and should really be the equivalent to the Deepwood Sniper tree on Ranger--the halfway point between The Good Tank Tree and The Good DPS Tree. But we don't have a Good DPS Tree for paladin right now, so it's tank or bust.


I agree with you about the +1 damage and made relevant suggestions to that above.

I disagree with your overall assessment of LuKaSu's idea. To me, it seems to make its point of departure more from same point as a light monk, i.e. what can I do to make the party/group stronger. And, I think that's a good direction for Pallies to be going.

Saekee
05-13-2014, 02:37 PM
I agree with you about the +1 damage and made relevant suggestions to that above.

I disagree with your overall assessment of LuKaSu's idea. To me, it seems to make its point of departure more from same point as a light monk, i.e. what can I do to make the party/group stronger. And, I think that's a good direction for Pallies to be going.

Same here. Love the OP's idea overall--can't say as much on specifics since I have little experience with Paladins--they should be buffing the group, maybe add debuffs for enemies, possibly a Dark Commander path option within the tree that would synergize with pale master abilities? More than just red light sabers of course.

LuKaSu
05-13-2014, 04:31 PM
I agree with you about the +1 damage and made relevant suggestions to that above.

I disagree with your overall assessment of LuKaSu's idea. To me, it seems to make its point of departure more from same point as a light monk, i.e. what can I do to make the party/group stronger. And, I think that's a good direction for Pallies to be going.

Exactly right. The goal is to bring as much to the table to help the group as a whole instead of the Paladin himself. That being said, if you compare it with Kensai, which gets 5 to hit, and 4-6 damage to their chosen weapon group, we're right in that ballpark with the Brothers in Arms abilities, when the Paladin is in group. Add in Divine Might from the KotC tree, and it's pretty nice damage. So, I'd really rather not put just another flat bonus to damage in the tree. What would be a good alternative to a to hit, then, if not a flat damage? Maybe seeker bonuses instead, to show this guy's determination to his goal?

Psiandron
05-13-2014, 04:48 PM
Exactly right. The goal is to bring as much to the table to help the group as a whole instead of the Paladin himself. That being said, if you compare it with Kensai, which gets 5 to hit, and 4-6 damage to their chosen weapon group, we're right in that ballpark with the Brothers in Arms abilities, when the Paladin is in group. Add in Divine Might from the KotC tree, and it's pretty nice damage. So, I'd really rather not put just another flat bonus to damage in the tree. What would be a good alternative to a to hit, then, if not a flat damage? Maybe seeker bonuses instead, to show this guy's determination to his goal?

I don't really see an issue with a flat damage add.

Pallies are not top-flight DPS class and that's fine with me. They get many other abilities that make them useful and fun and i think that what you did capitalizes on that and makes them potentially an asset to a party anyway. However, adding a few extra points of damage is not going to bring them to the fore in terms of DPS.

If you were to add in bonuses to crit chance and crit damage, ala Kensei and Tempest then I would feel you would be trying to beef up the class too much.

The_Human_Cypher
05-13-2014, 06:01 PM
/signed. This is a very well though out and detailed suggestion. My main is a Paladin (most of the time) so I would enjoy something like this.