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Choopak
05-02-2014, 03:28 AM
With the new tree available soon to bard (already on ddowiki), i would like to know your opinion on it.
Lots of dodge, and doublestrike (foresee a couple of splash bard just for the doublestrike boost) some of neat tricks and... runearms! The buckler addition is a nice touch, but runearms :), fun, just fun...
It give the bard a bit of offence and if someone really go all in (20 levels) a pretty decent DPS (Balizarde and Corruption of Nature is a good combo), both melee and range (throw) making it versatile.
With all bard's spells (displacement, blur, haste, resist) and SwasBuc tricks; that's a lot of defenses.
Would be interesting if implement like this...
Race wise: anything with DEX and CHA... so elf, halfling, human as usual... Heck even BF (-2 CHA, but lots of immunities)
So here it is... fire away!

N-0cturn
05-05-2014, 03:03 PM
I like what they have shown us so far in general.

A lot depends on the implementation of the SWF Feats now.

Regarding the runearms I am not exited at all, because it still needs two levels of Artificer. So you would loose the nice capstone and Artificer does not offer hat much interesting stuff otherwise. I cannot see myself using it at all.

From what I see at the moment it will be a viable tree to make a Melee focused Bard. If you focus on Spellcasting and get tier 5 Spellsinger you will most likely lose Evasion and the Dex Bonus to make it work. However you can still grab Cha to damage and quite a bit of the DPS part. The problem will be the SWF Feats. Even on a Human Spellsinger feats are very tight.

Hopefully they will have some time to buff Warchanter as well. The pre really needs some love.

I look forward to see this on Lama and test different build ideas.

Memnir
05-05-2014, 03:14 PM
It's not really Swashbuckler without a Death Parrot, imho, but it look fairly decent so far.
Not sure if I'll rush to make one, however.

gurth83
05-06-2014, 01:55 AM
With the new tree available soon to bard (already on ddowiki), i would like to know your opinion on it.
Lots of dodge, and doublestrike (foresee a couple of splash bard just for the doublestrike boost) some of neat tricks and... runearms! The buckler addition is a nice touch, but runearms :), fun, just fun...
It give the bard a bit of offence and if someone really go all in (20 levels) a pretty decent DPS (Balizarde and Corruption of Nature is a good combo), both melee and range (throw) making it versatile.
With all bard's spells (displacement, blur, haste, resist) and SwasBuc tricks; that's a lot of defenses.
Would be interesting if implement like this...
Race wise: anything with DEX and CHA... so elf, halfling, human as usual... Heck even BF (-2 CHA, but lots of immunities)
So here it is... fire away!

Lol. Do you even play a bard? Bards spells resist? Lot of bard defenses? Defense is bard weakest part. Do not have any resists. You need to use ship resists or house J favor resists or 7 level wands for +20 to resist or 11 level wands for +30 to resists, scrolls of mass protoction from elements, stoneskin, tenser transform. Bard do not get many PPR. Ironskin song is outdated and too costly to get only 6- dr. Where is your defenses?

Swashbucker 20 core ability is a worthless (next to warchanter) i will not roll a 20 level bard swashbuck becasue 18bard/2rouge Swashbucker will be better right now.

Besides you should change your thread name it's not "New bard tree: swashbuckler:" but "New tree in bard: swashbuckler". You now what makes bard a bard? Playing songs and share it with your party. Now go check swahsbucker tree and tell me which ability makes you being a better bard? You get only one: +1/+2/+3 bard song. Thats all from whole tree. No new song or improve to existings songs.

To use runearm you need 2 level of artifacter and it will not change because as developer say "runearm makes artifacter unique". While songs are only unique thing to bard and as I said before swashbucker do not improve any (and they call it bard PrE - hypocrisy, runearm is unique becasue its P2W and thats why bard will not gain runearm profiniency in swashbucker). And pre-empting question - yes I do have artifacter class.

Only one thing i will take for sure form shashbucker to my main bard: Fast Movment and maybe On Your Toes.

I see potential in swashbuckler for caster bard to use thrown weapons as a support to do dmg.

N-0cturn
05-06-2014, 10:44 AM
Lol. Do you even play a bard? Bards spells resist? Lot of bard defenses? Defense is bard weakest part. Do not have any resists. You need to use ship resists or house J favor resists or 7 level wands for +20 to resist or 11 level wands for +30 to resists, scrolls of mass protoction from elements, stoneskin, tenser transform. Bard do not get many PPR. Ironskin song is outdated and too costly to get only 6- dr. Where is your defenses?

I agree that defence is lacking on bards, however Swashbuckler will help with that. You get a 30% Dodge Cap and enough Bonuses to dodge that a melee bard should not have a problem to cap it. They also get a huge buff to ref saves and Evasion which should make a huge difference, even if you might not be able to get enough ref save to work in all content.


Swashbucker 20 core ability is a worthless (next to warchanter) i will not roll a 20 level bard swashbuck becasue 18bard/2rouge Swashbucker will be better right now.

I am not sure why you would say that. You get +1 dam from IC, + 2 damage from the capstone enhancement, 1% doublestrike, +2 songs, +2 Spellpen. + 2 Cha and Dex. Two levels for Rogue will give you 1d6 sneak attack, +1 Ref save and Access to rogues Skills and enhancements. I am not saying that a build with 2 levels or rogue would make no sense but the capstone if far from "worthless".

Chai
05-07-2014, 05:54 PM
The issue with capstone is it feat starves the character and makes the player make choices between multiclassing or staying pure. This is good, and I wish every pure class was that much of a debate. Right now multiclassing is a no brainer. Sad to say the reason its really a debate with bard is because they cant multi with paladin or monk.

Choopak
05-07-2014, 10:31 PM
Lol. Do you even play a bard? Bards spells resist? Lot of bard defenses? Defense is bard weakest part. Do not have any resists. You need to use ship resists or house J favor resists or 7 level wands for +20 to resist or 11 level wands for +30 to resists, scrolls of mass protoction from elements, stoneskin, tenser transform. Bard do not get many PPR. Ironskin song is outdated and too costly to get only 6- dr. Where is your defenses?

Swashbucker 20 core ability is a worthless (next to warchanter) i will not roll a 20 level bard swashbuck becasue 18bard/2rouge Swashbucker will be better right now.

Besides you should change your thread name it's not "New bard tree: swashbuckler:" but "New tree in bard: swashbuckler". You now what makes bard a bard? Playing songs and share it with your party. Now go check swahsbucker tree and tell me which ability makes you being a better bard? You get only one: +1/+2/+3 bard song. Thats all from whole tree. No new song or improve to existings songs.

To use runearm you need 2 level of artifacter and it will not change because as developer say "runearm makes artifacter unique". While songs are only unique thing to bard and as I said before swashbucker do not improve any (and they call it bard PrE - hypocrisy, runearm is unique becasue its P2W and thats why bard will not gain runearm profiniency in swashbucker). And pre-empting question - yes I do have artifacter class.

Only one thing i will take for sure form shashbucker to my main bard: Fast Movment and maybe On Your Toes.

I see potential in swashbuckler for caster bard to use thrown weapons as a support to do dmg.

Yes i did played a bard (WC, before enhancements change)
1) by bard defences i meant bard damage mitigation spells, and they have the best in game: displacement! Resist, you're right, but you can UMD everything so shiled, stoneskin and rest...
2) Capstone: Evasive Maneuvers: +2 CHA, +2 DEX. While Swashbuckling, you gain the Evasion feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Attack Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.
Where is that useless??? pretty decent for a melee type bard.
3) agreed on thread name, my bad
4) misread about runearm use, didn'T see it require 2 levels of arti... sad really, like the flavor.
5) swashbuckling stance is good, uncanny dodge, blow by blow, en pointe, double strike boost, all the syle, different track, all tier 5 abilities. There's a lot to like!
6) throwing abilities are oki, but what weapon will you use? For melee there'S a lot of good 1 handed weapon.

All in all it's not a shuradi sorcerer, or a monkcher but it might be the new melee bard (since they killed WC)

MadCookieQueen
05-09-2014, 01:41 PM
2) Capstone: Evasive Maneuvers: +2 CHA, +2 DEX. While Swashbuckling, you gain the Evasion feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Attack Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.
Where is that useless??? pretty decent for a melee type bard.


It actually is kind of useless...I'll explain.

Great you have Evasion! Though what's your reflex save? Only upper 40's? Yeah that won't cut it in EE content and barely passable in EH, but feel free to rock EN. Evasion only truly works if you have the reflex save to back it up. Since even after all of this Bard's still have mediocre saves, it's fairly useless.

I can get more doublestrike and doubleshot in one epic past life than the capstone. Better off running an epic martial or primal past life for the +3% and have the option to do splashes if needed than to go pure Bard just for that.

+1 attack damage...pretty puny int he grand scheme of things..e.specially after you consider EDs, Twists, Past Lives...etc. Again why limit just for that?

+2 CHA and +2 Dex...you can these out of EDs, other enhancement lines and etc. Also...+2 CHA you can live without it...going melee you aren't worried about your spell DCs, you have more than enough spell points and your Perform is so massive with minimal effort that it isn't noticed. As for the +2 DEX unless you're doing a DEX to damage build (which isn't nearly as cool as it sounds) isn't going to help you, not as a melee when your best option is to go STR with only enough DEX for TWF line. Unless you go archer/thrower (at which point...why the heck aren't you cross classing?) then you need DEX for IPS...but even then you'd only take enough to reach the minimum.


So no...the capstone, like just about all capstones gives me absolutely no reason to not cross class and yes...it's relatively useless, all things considered.

Cardtrick
05-09-2014, 02:39 PM
It actually is kind of useless...I'll explain.

Great you have Evasion! Though what's your reflex save? Only upper 40's? Yeah that won't cut it in EE content and barely passable in EH, but feel free to rock EN. Evasion only truly works if you have the reflex save to back it up. Since even after all of this Bard's still have mediocre saves, it's fairly useless.

Did you miss the +7 reflex saves from core abilities and +12 from the tier 5 enhancement? In addition to the dex bonuses?

I actually think that's enough to balance out the inability to splash paladin and -- with gear, of course, and in some situations maybe a twist -- be endgame viable.

MadCookieQueen
05-09-2014, 04:52 PM
Did you miss the +7 reflex saves from core abilities and +12 from the tier 5 enhancement? In addition to the dex bonuses?

I actually think that's enough to balance out the inability to splash paladin and -- with gear, of course, and in some situations maybe a twist -- be endgame viable.


You're right I missed out on the changes...my fault...was going based on the original tree that was presented not on what's on LamaLand right now.

Quick math puts reflex save around 78...but that's MAX Dex drow build (figured 60 dex) with tomes and gear and stuff...again that's quick math...could be more could be less.


The catch is you'll be a max dex build and dex to damage versus strength based damage is one of those debates...I personally don't find dex to damage as viable but that's me.

so yeah Evasion with a good reflex save for EE content is possible...but...it's really the only thing you do and do well. Not sure how I feel about it but right now I'm a bit leery...only because I anticipate the massive nerf coming down the pike.

Choopak
05-09-2014, 04:54 PM
It actually is kind of useless...I'll explain.

Great you have Evasion! Though what's your reflex save? Only upper 40's? Yeah that won't cut it in EE content and barely passable in EH, but feel free to rock EN. Evasion only truly works if you have the reflex save to back it up. Since even after all of this Bard's still have mediocre saves, it's fairly useless.

I can get more doublestrike and doubleshot in one epic past life than the capstone. Better off running an epic martial or primal past life for the +3% and have the option to do splashes if needed than to go pure Bard just for that.

+1 attack damage...pretty puny int he grand scheme of things..e.specially after you consider EDs, Twists, Past Lives...etc. Again why limit just for that?

+2 CHA and +2 Dex...you can these out of EDs, other enhancement lines and etc. Also...+2 CHA you can live without it...going melee you aren't worried about your spell DCs, you have more than enough spell points and your Perform is so massive with minimal effort that it isn't noticed. As for the +2 DEX unless you're doing a DEX to damage build (which isn't nearly as cool as it sounds) isn't going to help you, not as a melee when your best option is to go STR with only enough DEX for TWF line. Unless you go archer/thrower (at which point...why the heck aren't you cross classing?) then you need DEX for IPS...but even then you'd only take enough to reach the minimum.


So no...the capstone, like just about all capstones gives me absolutely no reason to not cross class and yes...it's relatively useless, all things considered.

I know you can ED evasion, and get better double strike and all, BUT still, it's free! and nothing preventing you from taking all those twists anyway...
The CHA bonus would be better if you splash FvS (too bad can't go pally) to get divine might, and better saves (actually a good idea, hummm)
You're right about DEX base being less interesting than STR base (much more stuff boost STR than DEX)

Like i said, it's not the OP ness of the monk or sorcerer, but it's still better than WC (sadly)

NaturalHazard
05-09-2014, 06:40 PM
A lot depends on the implementation of the SWF Feats now.



yes.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-10-2014, 02:48 AM
I'd much rather have seen them spend the time to make Spellsinger and Warchanter (MUCH) better. Many in the bard community have been asking for this for years (more spells, more CC, improved songs, etc).

Why go Bard 20 when you can splash two levels of rogue to get the capstone (evasion) when ever you want (as early as level 2) plus more.

Maybe when (if) I test drive this, my mind will change, but from this vantage point... that is one ugly car.

MadCookieQueen
05-12-2014, 08:17 AM
Working with awesome peeps on theorycrafting and testing Swashbuckler and it looks like the SWF feats are AMAZING!


Right now the base idea is 12 Bard/6 fighter/2 rogue

Looking at dual running SWF and THF (glancing blows proc will be key) chains, go Celestia but also take Exotic Weapon Bastard Sword, since it boosts up Celestia's proc and glancing blow chances by quite a bit. If you don't go this route, Celestia's chances aren't consistent enough to be counted on, they still wont' be perfect but they will be much better.

The 6 fighter not only produces a mass pile of feats...also the Stances are a key component...there seems to be some awesome synergy with Fighter stances and Kensai enhancements that will make a single handed fighter fairly kick butt.

the Rogue is going to get us evasion and with the skills they get it'll round out the versatility of the character.

As I said this is still in sketching mode but could be fairly insane when fully scoped out.

I'm also trying to figure out a pure Bard...hopefully to be called, Death by Stereo ^^

Choopak
05-13-2014, 07:35 PM
Working with awesome peeps on theorycrafting and testing Swashbuckler and it looks like the SWF feats are AMAZING!

I'm also trying to figure out a pure Bard...hopefully to be called, Death by Stereo ^^

Any ideas what those feats are? Really curious about them...

cool name bud ;)

HatsuharuZ
05-13-2014, 08:01 PM
Besides you should change your thread name it's not "New bard tree: swashbuckler:" but "New tree in bard: swashbuckler". You now what makes bard a bard? Playing songs and share it with your party. Now go check swahsbucker tree and tell me which ability makes you being a better bard? You get only one: +1/+2/+3 bard song. Thats all from whole tree. No new song or improve to existings songs.

I think bards have around 18-19 songs available already, and most of them are buffs. Also, the other two trees can give 6 extra song uses in their respective bottom rows.

The version of swashbuckler up on Lammania right now focuses more on actual butt-kicking than it does buffing, and that is fine with me.

Ayseifn
05-13-2014, 08:52 PM
You're right I missed out on the changes...my fault...was going based on the original tree that was presented not on what's on LamaLand right now.

Quick math puts reflex save around 78...but that's MAX Dex drow build (figured 60 dex) with tomes and gear and stuff...again that's quick math...could be more could be less.


The catch is you'll be a max dex build and dex to damage versus strength based damage is one of those debates...I personally don't find dex to damage as viable but that's me.

so yeah Evasion with a good reflex save for EE content is possible...but...it's really the only thing you do and do well. Not sure how I feel about it but right now I'm a bit leery...only because I anticipate the massive nerf coming down the pike.
Your numbers seem way off, I'm getting a 72 Reflex save on a pure bard with only 10 dex before feats or ED stuffs and probably missed some things. 60 dex would put you at 97, so no need to go dex based if you want a viable evasion.

N-0cturn
05-16-2014, 05:26 PM
I tested 2 builds today and I have to say that it is really hard not to invest to many AP in Swashbucker. The AP costs in the wiki are wrong. The Tier 5 abilities cost 2 AP each with the exception of "Coupe de Grace", so that at least 41 for all the Tier 5 abilities. And it's the same for the rest of the tree, many abilities cost 2 AP.
I spent 45 and did not take everything I would have wanted (No Action Boost, No On the Mark). This limits multi-classing quite a bit.

It tested one 16 bard 2 rogue 2 FvS, since I run the same split on live and it worked kinda ok. Hard to say because at the moment the +100% Ability Bonus of the SWF Feats is not working and I only had lvl 17 Gear since the char I copied was currently in a TR. It might still be a good split with Good saves, evasion, Rogues Skills and high Str.

The second split was a pure 20 Cha-based Swashbuckler. Worked quite a bit better, but that char had a Balizarde and better gear. 15-20/x4 Crits are quite nice. I think a max Cha and Evocation DC specced Bard might be an idea. Without the Tier 5 of Spellsinger Enchantment has no additional boni so it's Soundburst vs Otto's Sphere. If I only could get myself to do 3 sorc past lifes ... Feats would be an issue though.

One additional note:

Coup de Grace has been an awesome addition. This ability is just fun :) . I love how it works together with Elegant Footwork.

It also works together with "Slap in the Face" which basically gives the enemy 2 saves vs Perform + d20 to avoid death. This is quite nice but at the moment I don't think it will make the class too good. Bards might get popular however.

maddmatt70
05-17-2014, 12:28 AM
I am leaning toward 16 bard 2 FVS 2 Barbarian strength based in Legendary Dreadnaught. A charisma based bard can not get a high enough evocation dc to land things unless they sacrifice a ton of feats and the like which means less dps. The barbarian gets ear smash, a bard can swap between ear smash and the stun ability in swashbuckler and has more dps. This build has a better crit profile and more ability score damage from strength. I would obviously not be raged at all.

MadCookieQueen
05-19-2014, 11:44 AM
Your numbers seem way off, I'm getting a 72 Reflex save on a pure bard with only 10 dex before feats or ED stuffs and probably missed some things. 60 dex would put you at 97, so no need to go dex based if you want a viable evasion.

I'd love to see your math on the 97 Reflex.


Here's what I got for my quick math for pure 28 Bard (not using EDs or feats as that can change the final number based on build), using a 62 Dex:

12 base, +13 SB tree, +26 dex modifier, +4 epic, +4 morale, +10 resistance, +3 luck, +1 competence, +1 Ship, +1 haste /+4 insightful = 78 Reflex Save


Dex Breakdown on a Drow (not counting EDs or feats):

20 base, +5 tome, +7 levels, +6 enhancements(+2 SB, +2 cap and +2 drow), +11 item, +4 insightful item, +1 exceptional, +2 ship, +2 yugo, +4 tenser's = 62 Dexterity


As I said...these are quick breakdowns and don't include all the various ED things or additional feats....just basic stuff.

Chai
05-19-2014, 05:20 PM
It actually is kind of useless...I'll explain.

Great you have Evasion! Though what's your reflex save? Only upper 40's? Yeah that won't cut it in EE content and barely passable in EH, but feel free to rock EN. Evasion only truly works if you have the reflex save to back it up. Since even after all of this Bard's still have mediocre saves, it's fairly useless.

This is true for the str bards, but with dex to damage entering the equation, people will be able to build reflex saves that work. They may not be no fail, but they will work the majority of the time.

12 - level 20 class granted.
4 - epic levels granted
7 - swashbuckler enhancements
2 - good luck slotted
4 - parrying - cove shield, old school bracers, Balizarde, etc...
20 - dex score of 60.
10 - resistance item slotted
1 - haste, blinding speed
4 - greater heroism
---------------------------------------------------------------
64 - not bad for a pure bard.

No EDs or epic feats were accounted for in this calc. So depending on how high someone wants to get it from here, they can use an epic feat and or ED ability to move this higher.

N-0cturn
05-20-2014, 02:14 AM
This is true for the str bards, but with dex to damage entering the equation, people will be able to build reflex saves that work. They may not be no fail, but they will work the majority of the time.

7 - swashbuckler enhancements


They currently reduced the Tier 5 Bonus to +6 ref save, but you also get +1 per core ability for a total of +12.

This should be enough to give a Ref save of about 60 for a Str or Cha focused Bard, that does not drop Dex completely.


I am leaning toward 16 bard 2 FVS 2 Barbarian strength based in Legendary Dreadnaught. A charisma based bard can not get a high enough evocation dc to land things unless they sacrifice a ton of feats and the like which means less dps. The barbarian gets ear smash, a bard can swap between ear smash and the stun ability in swashbuckler and has more dps. This build has a better crit profile and more ability score damage from strength. I would obviously not be raged at all.

From what I have seen so far a Max Cha Bard that runs in the Divine Crusader Destiny is my favorite. With Balizarde you have a 13 - 20 x 4 Crit Profile before Exploit Weaknesses. Zeal of the Righteous also seems almost tailor-made with the huge Doublestrike boost. You don't have enough Feats for Spell CC but a high Cha is still great to twist the Soundburst SLA or Energy Burst, etc.

A max Str build would still be higher DPS, but for now I prefer the package that I get from max Cha more :) .

Ayseifn
05-20-2014, 06:06 AM
I'd love to see your math on the 97 Reflex.


Here's what I got for my quick math for pure 28 Bard (not using EDs or feats as that can change the final number based on build), using a 62 Dex:

12 base, +13 SB tree, +26 dex modifier, +4 epic, +4 morale, +10 resistance, +3 luck, +1 competence, +1 Ship, +1 haste /+4 insightful = 78 Reflex Save


Dex Breakdown on a Drow (not counting EDs or feats):

20 base, +5 tome, +7 levels, +6 enhancements(+2 SB, +2 cap and +2 drow), +11 item, +4 insightful item, +1 exceptional, +2 ship, +2 yugo, +4 tenser's = 62 Dexterity


As I said...these are quick breakdowns and don't include all the various ED things or additional feats....just basic stuff.

12 base
6 SB tree
12 second skin
4 epic progression
3 luck
1 eldritch ritual
4 parrying
11 resistance item
1 haste
4 GH
3 new airship buff
1 old ship buff

62 with the old second skin
56 with the new

I was drunk when I posted that so I probably made a noob mistake like adding 10 base, counting things twice or actually adding some dex in. I did go overboard a little but I just wanted to prove that you could get there without going dex based, there's still more possible to add though like 3 from PL, halfling, or 2 exceptional from Omniscience.

Since second skin got nerfed and because of my bad math things look much tighter, but dumping dex still seems viable just costly on gear slots, twists and then there's that orb forcing a pretty big opportunity cost.

goodspeed
05-27-2014, 11:58 PM
Ya idk, dex for dmg is alright if your using the weapons, but then you still lose whatever hope you had for a stun. And a stun is effectively ending a monsters life, or at least getting it to near death. with a dps ED. Without an ED forget it. Had to take and cut a bard down to near half and fill in with fighter and rog to balance dmg. And even then it was just ok. The ESOS really did help em out though with the build style. But sadly we don't all have those lying around.

Str can be stacked to be semi reliable in EE. But the problem is saves and defense.

Added in is the swashbucking stance. Its basically a fighters or pallys stance except you need to have im supposing a rune arm for nothing or a shield in your off hand. The hell? Added to that the benefits it gives for this stance. Maybe something happened in windows of time frame periods I left. But as far as I know, sword and boarding sucks. And if you do sword and board, your using a bastard or an axe. And those aren't choices. Further if I were to sword and board it would be using a sentinel or defender stance and getting a **** ton of PRR, HP, and saves if not AC in the process.

So right off the bat the whole core thing just is bad. I think its actually worse then warchanter. It looks like all through the tree they try to enhance this stance. Spend some ap get this, spend some more to move to the next tier get this stuff. idk I'm just not seeing any worth from a melee perspective. Even the 1 handed melee perspective. It actually seems like a really sick joke.

I mean maybe if you could have the swash stance active with a ftr or pld stance and combine them all it could be worth the splash but thats alot of ap to spend to get it there. And ap is really precious.

BigErkyKid
05-29-2014, 10:37 AM
What I have been discussing with other people.

Max CHA PDK pure bard with swashbluckler all the way.

The idea is to run in LD and twisting and grabbing all the enchantment you can to dance and charm the mobs. Below I attach a breakdown of the DCs without very top gear, this is what I have done for my case but you can easily extract your own. To sum it up, you can "easily" run 54 DC Enchantment in LD and before debuffs (hypnotism, mind fog, fascinate enhancement malus). Hence I think that it may be viable in end game, since very solid DCs seem to be in the 60s.

As for the discussion regarding reflex, you will not get a no fail probably but I do think that with the enhancements you can reach mid 50s without going DEX to damage. That is fairly respectable IMO. And it is what current bards are running with...ehem ehem Madqueen. If it is good enough for them, then with evasion it is even better.


Initial DC 14 (Otto disco ball)

Feats (6/7):
Spell focus enchantment: 1
Greater spell focus enchantment: 1
Heighten: 2
Epic spell focus: 1
Bard past life: 1
(Wizzard PL): 1

Enhancements (4):
Marigold: 1
Spell song trance: 1
Prodigy: 2

Twists (3):
Magister school specialist: 3

13 from enhancements and feats.

Epic destiny Fateswinger (2):
Majesty: 2



Enchantment focus from Sage s mantle: 5. (+6 in TF item)

34 (32) before Charisma

To reach 60 DC, must get +26(28) CHA. This is 64(66) Charisma.


Charisma:

Tier 1 (41)
Initial: 18
Level ups: 7
Tome: 3
Item, regular: 10
Item, exceptional: 3

Must get 25 more.

Enhancements (6)
Capstone: 2
Spellsinger: 2
Swashbucler: 2

Various (4)
Inspire excellence: 2
Ship: 2

around 50...+20.

Thats 54 DC before debuffs

giftie
05-29-2014, 01:17 PM
What I have been discussing with other people.

Max CHA PDK pure bard with swashbluckler all the way.

I'd be very curious to see how that compares to a Drow Swashbuckler in Divine Crusader, which is what I'm going for now.

If you're going to go swashbuckler and can get CHA-to-damage with Balizarde, why still insist on PDK? A PDK is -2 DC right off the bat compared to Drow, without getting any mileage out of Cormyrean Knight Training.

EDIT: removed my criticism against going LD on account of not mentioning any SWF feats. I didn't realize you only mentioned the 6 +DC feats you were going to take.

BigErkyKid
05-29-2014, 01:31 PM
I'd be very curious to see how that compares to a Drow Swashbuckler in Divine Crusader, which is what I'm going for now.

If you're going to go swashbuckler and can get CHA-to-damage with Balizarde, why still insist on PDK? A PDK is -2 DC right off the bat compared to Drow, without getting any mileage out of Cormyrean Knight Training.

In your particular build you're taking SS tier 5, and no SWF feats. I just think that's a mistake, and I simply can't see how that's going to be better damage in Legendary Dreadnought than a Divine Crusader with +6 CHA who can drop 3 DC feats and take the the SWF line for the same DCs. Similarly, going Drow over PDK would let you take Swashbuckler tier 5 instead of SS for the same DCs.

Since you can switch between EA for casting and LD/Divine Crusader for DPS, it seems to me that you're only limiting yourself by going PDK, and that Divine Crusader is a more natural fit for a melee bard.

Having said that, I'm a huge fan of PDK Spellsingers, I just don't see them doing as well as Swashbucklers.

As far as I understand, PDK gives you charisma to damage AND attack rolls. Whereas swash only gives you CHA to damage in SWF feats. It is a slight but powerful difference, IMO, in case that is actually WAI.

Cormyrean Knight Training: You now use Charisma or Strength, whichever is higher, for attack and damage with shortswords, longswords, bastard swords, and greatswords. In addition, as long as your Charisma remains higher than your Strength and you are wielding one of the above weapons, you receive a bonus to the DCs of your Tactical Feats equal to 1/3 your Charisma modifier.

Smooth Flourishes: You get Charisma to Damage with weapon attacks Single Weapon Fighting

Of course this rules out balizarde, which is a loss. Not as much as one would think since you can get a TF shortsword with the same critical profile as a TF rapier. Regarding the feats, I am testing it out but I do believe you can feat the DC feats and SWF. I am not taking tier 5 spell singer, btw. Non of the stuff I listed is t5. EDIT: That list is a placeholder, I realize I did include prodigy. If you go LD I would actually trade the 2 DC for the instakills, since it is a 12 seconds cooldown and while blitzing you will do a lot of damage anyway. 2 DC points can be crucial for end game, specially if you are going on the lower end.

As for why insisting in LD over other destinies, this is because of blitz. You may not like it, but ultimately it is the way to go if you want to be able to face end game content solo. Furthermore, if you manage to get good DCs as a LD, you will be even better in DC or whatever. It is a minimum requirement.

PS - The only build I have seen solo a tough EE in DC is shoikan, but he is a FVS that uses a lot of magic and tier 3 TF weapons. So I am not sold that DC is that viable.

Feat selection (1 human, 7 level ups, 3 epic, 2 epic destiny)

Empower healing, 1st tier SWF, 2nd tier SWF, 3rd tier SWF, epic SWF, quicken, heighten, spell focus, G spell focus, bard PL, epic spell focus.

One would need to carefully time them and this is not the full list, but I think it can work.

giftie
05-29-2014, 02:10 PM
As far as I understand, PDK gives you charisma to damage AND attack rolls. Whereas swash only gives you CHA to damage in SWF feats. It is a slight but powerful difference, IMO, in case that is actually WAI.

Oh, absolutely. I'm still thinking in terms of Divine Crusader which does get full character BAB (28 vs 18 for pure bard? - and slightly higher attack speed, 3%?), and with all the other bard +to-hit enhancements I didn't consider it that significant myself.


Regarding the feats, I am testing it out but I do believe you can feat the DC feats and SWF.

I noticed this somewhere between you pressing reply, and me pressing edit. You'll notice I edited my post already. Sorry.


I am not taking tier 5 spell singer, btw. Non of the stuff I listed is t5.

EDIT: That list is a placeholder, I realize I did include prodigy.

Gotcha.


If you go LD I would actually trade the 2 DC for the instakills, since it is a 12 seconds cooldown and while blitzing you will do a lot of damage anyway. 2 DC points can be crucial for end game, specially if you are going on the lower end.

As for why insisting in LD over other destinies, this is because of blitz. You may not like it, but ultimately it is the way to go if you want to be able to face end game content solo.

I didn't realize you were intending to use a bard - even an LD - as a solo build. But I'm probably just old-fashioned that way.

Admittedly, LD makes more sense if you can keep a blitz going. But you don't list Power Attack, Cleave or Great Cleave anywhere. Are you relying just on Trip to build stacks? Even with PA, Momentum Swing and Lay Waste has 60 second CDs, think.


PS - The only build I have seen solo a tough EE in DC is shoikan, but he is a FVS that uses a lot of magic and tier 3 TF weapons. So I am not sold that DC is that viable.

As I said, I'm curious to see how it would compare. =)

BigErkyKid
05-29-2014, 02:43 PM
Oh, absolutely. I'm still thinking in terms of Divine Crusader which does get full character BAB (28 vs 18 for pure bard? - and slightly higher attack speed, 3%?), and with all the other bard +to-hit enhancements I didn't consider it that significant myself.



I noticed this somewhere between you pressing reply, and me pressing edit. You'll notice I edited my post already. Sorry.



Gotcha.



I didn't realize you were intending to use a bard - even an LD - as a solo build. But I'm probably just old-fashioned that way.

Admittedly, LD makes more sense if you can keep a blitz going. But you don't list Power Attack, Cleave or Great Cleave anywhere. Are you relying just on Trip to build stacks? Even with PA, Momentum Swing and Lay Waste has 60 second CDs, think.



As I said, I'm curious to see how it would compare. =)


Thanks for the comments! Yes, it would be a pain to charge blitz :P . Trip and sunder, done it, it just take slonger.

Regarding momentum swing, it is powerful but it isnt a good synergy with SWF which rely on attack speed. AFAIK, momentum slows down the attack sequence.

Regarding the soloing...well it is not that I only solo. But I don t like builds that don t allow me to at least think about going solo.

My biggest concern is to keep significant damage up while being able to enchant. For me that s the definition of bard, a charming swordsman :P

Seikojin
05-29-2014, 02:54 PM
I sense, if they don't change bsword mechanics, that lots of people will switch to that for their weapon of choice since it inherently includes glancing blows and you can pump procs. Given they disabled using thf and swf together, you probably will get the boosts from enhancements and destinies only. Still.

A decent build was 12/6/2 bard/wiz/rogue. The AP is thin though. And until they can boost any stat as well as str, then nothing can trump dmg boosting like str for melee.