PDA

View Full Version : Dodge seems really stupid for rogues to me



poltt48
04-28-2014, 06:58 AM
I usually play casters but decided I wanted something different for a change so made a rogue. Decided would get tons of dodge for him to help him survive. So I took every feat, enhancement, and ed for dodge I could get when was all said and done had exactly 50% dodge. Was going to do 3 past lives in iconic to raise this to 53%. When someone in my guild explained to me max dodge is based on your dex mod on armor max 25% unless you have abilities says raises it witch rogues do not get at all. So decided would get best armor in game for rogues being shadow armor but it only gives you 19. Even with mods from abilities only getting 25% so why the hell is there 43% on enhancements, feats and ed, of rogues if this is the case?

HuneyMunster
04-28-2014, 07:18 AM
I usually play casters but decided I wanted something different for a change so made a rogue. Decided would get tons of dodge for him to help him survive. So I took every feat, enhancement, and ed for dodge I could get when was all said and done had exactly 50% dodge. Was going to do 3 past lives in iconic to raise this to 53%. When someone in my guild explained to me max dodge is based on your dex mod on armor max 25% unless you have abilities says raises it witch rogues do not get at all. So decided would get best armor in game for rogues being shadow armor but it only gives you 19. Even with mods from abilities only getting 25% so why the hell is there 43% on enhancements, feats and ed, of rogues if this is the case?

Certain abilities like Uncanny Dodge and Meld Into Darkness ignores the max dodge limit of 25%

Linvak
04-28-2014, 07:56 AM
Don't you think that 50% to ignore physical damage is a bit too strong? Imagine adding 20% concealment, and being 10 or 25% incorporeal.

unbongwah
04-28-2014, 09:01 AM
Even with mods from abilities only getting 25% so why the hell is there 43% on enhancements, feats and ed, of rogues if this is the case?
Uhhh, because most people don't take all of them? It's called "giving you different options to get to the same place."

CThruTheEgo
04-28-2014, 09:33 AM
Uhhh, because most people don't take all of them? It's called "giving you different options to get to the same place."

^This. Having different options is a good thing. And investing in every feat, enhancement, and ED ability that grants dodge is quite a sacrifice. Personally, I'm glad it's not possible to take them all.

It sounds like you've already made these investments on your character. If that's the case, it's always a good idea to do at least a little research before building a character just to make sure you understand the mechanics correctly. Wiki is invaluable for this. On the page about dodge bonus (http://ddowiki.com/page/Dodge_bonus), for example, it states within the first couple of paragraphs that it is capped by max dex bonus of armor up to a max of 25. This sounds like a costly lesson for you, but we've all learned it one way or another.

grandeibra
04-28-2014, 11:06 AM
^This. Having different options is a good thing. And investing in every feat, enhancement, and ED ability that grants dodge is quite a sacrifice. Personally, I'm glad it's [U]not[/B] possible to take them all.Options is good agreed. Great even

But Trubine made some flagrant and very avoidable mistakes when changing the AC mechanic a while back

* Having abilities be a flat percentage where 100% gives immunity to efffect X is not a good mechanic. PRR works better (some don't like the sloping effect of investing in it but at least there is no ceiling and it can't go to 100% immunity)

* Having a set ceiling on an ability is lame for many reasons. Mainly power creep will make that limit easy to get to and basically render the ability cookiecutter after some period of time (or even in some cases early on). This yields less variety in builds and tougher to maker interesting loot. Jump is one such example. Dodge is another.

* Changing to-hit the way they did basically made all efforts at small increases in to-hit/bab virtually useless. It used to be that to-hit challenged classes (non barbs, non kensei, non rangers vs favored etc) had to invest in to-hit at the cost of less investments in damage. Some builds favored all damage. some more to-hit, many a combo. Now it's all about damage (as far as offense goes). Once again limiting choice and diversity.

* The to-hit changes also had the opposite effect on character AC compared to what Turbine claimed to go for: Noone invests or even cares about it now except for ubertanks. In the old days I'd say at least a few more builds built (partly) for AC.

* The barb DR ability hasn't been scaled up with the huge changes to defense and damage, rendering barbarians (outside a few superbuilds like the Occult con dorf superhi spell resistance build) gimp.

* Another ambition with the change was supposedly to make real tanks more likely to be in heavy armor vs the pajamas-builds. But once again power creep (and the lesser increase from further investments in PRR) has made PRR easy to find for pajamas wearers, and the difference fairly small.

Most of these problems were discussed at length by players in open "suggestion" threads and I (and many/some others) were more or less vehemently opposed to the course Turbine took. Not that a change wasn't needed, there were just many better and simpler alternatives.

Seikojin
04-28-2014, 11:50 AM
You can take things that raise the cap.

unbongwah
04-28-2014, 02:13 PM
You can take things that raise the cap.
What besides Agility (Ninja & Kensei) and Improved Mobility (Tempest & Kensei) does that?

poltt48
04-29-2014, 08:13 AM
Nothing other then monk and fighter enhancements change the cap. Believe me I looked at what would change cap for rogue and is nothing other then temp abilities. Personally think stupid0est thing going. You would think rogues would have something to raise the cap. ALso does not take a lot to get over 70 dodge. 6 from rogue class, 10 from 4 feats can take for dodge, 3 from iconic enhancement, 3 from iconic past life, 12 from best dodge item, 10 from assassin enhancement, 3 from thief acrobat enhancement, 10 from rogue ED that is 61. Then could always twist in another 12 from 3 other ed if really wanted. Really when look at it you can get 40 with little effort for a rogue not really sacrificing anything. That's why the 25 cap with nothing to permently raise it for rogue is just stupidest thing in the game.

ericrd
04-29-2014, 08:27 AM
the 25% dodge cap should certainly be listed on ch sheet where your dodge bonuses are listed

not listing it just causes uneeded frustration for no reason

poltt48
04-29-2014, 08:29 AM
Actually told by a guildy that there is a Halfling enhancement that raises the cap by 3 also.

unbongwah
04-29-2014, 09:37 AM
10 from 4 feats can take for dodge
Dodge/Mobility/Spring Atk chain gets you 7%; what are you taking for the last 3%? Combat Archery is +2%, but only if wielding a ranged weapon.

12 from best dodge item
Oh, are these up to 12% now? 10% is highest I've seen so far.

That's why the 25 cap with nothing to permently raise it for rogue is just stupidest thing in the game.
You're not thinking hard enough: there are plenty of dumb design decisions to go around. ;)

Actually told by a guildy that there is a Halfling enhancement that raises the cap by 3 also.
Nimble Reaction: at first I thought it didn't stack w/Imp Mobility, but now that I look at it, I don't see any such restriction.

Krelar
04-29-2014, 10:25 AM
the 25% dodge cap should certainly be listed on ch sheet where your dodge bonuses are listed

not listing it just causes uneeded frustration for no reason

It already is. All my characters say what their current dodge % is and what their current dodge cap is.

redoubt
05-14-2014, 02:10 AM
Nimbleness could add to max dodge bonus. This would be an easy boost, but is temporary in nature anyway. You must also be 12 rogue to get this and do lots of sneak attacks. It only charges once every 2 seconds and only stays 6 seconds. So while a bonus of 10% dodge sounds amazing, consider that you have to do consistant sneak attacks for 20 seconds straight to build the charge and then continue to land at least on sneak attack every 6 seconds to maintain it.

Shadow dodge could do the same without being overpowered. Must be 3 rogue and you lose 30% fort as a trade for 3 dodge and dex.

Untouchable in Shadowdancer could also boost max dodge bonus at the same rate it give dodge bonus. Capped at 7 and requires you to build up shadow charges to get it.

All three of these give dodge already and are either temporary or charge based. Even if all three of these were stacked the max you would have is 25 + 10 + 3 + 7 = 45% dodge. (This assumes you had 25% without any of these.)

Realistically, I think a TA might push into the assassin tree to pick up nimbleness, but it is far less likely that an assassin would spend 13 points in the TA tree. (Maybe a TA can comment on this , my rogue is an assassin.) As an assassin, AP are super tight I can't see sparing points to go that deep into TA. At present I don't even carry 25 points of dodge... I'm sitting at 18 and I rely on untouchable to just to get to 25%.

SebastianG
05-26-2014, 06:48 PM
...

Realistically, I think a TA might push into the assassin tree to pick up nimbleness, but it is far less likely that an assassin would spend 13 points in the TA tree. (Maybe a TA can comment on this , my rogue is an assassin.) As an assassin, AP are super tight I can't see sparing points to go that deep into TA. At present I don't even carry 25 points of dodge... I'm sitting at 18 and I rely on untouchable to just to get to 25%.

I have a halfling assassin (20 rogue) and a halfling thief acrobat (16 rogue, 2 monk, 2 druid). Although AP are tight with the assassin, I do go into the TA tree to get Shadow Dodge. Since I've used that many AP in there, I also go for No Mercy (3/3) and Dexterity (X2). I have a few points in the halfling tree and the rest in the assassin tree. Her dodge is 28/28.

For my thief acrobat, I do not go into the assassin tree, using most of my AP in the TA tree and Halfling Tree. Her dodge is 31/31.

Munkenmo
05-26-2014, 06:52 PM
What besides Agility (Ninja & Kensei) and Improved Mobility (Tempest & Kensei) does that?

Halfling (this currently stacks with all other enhancments)


http://ddowiki.com/images/Icon_Feat_Mobility.png (http://ddowiki.com/page/File:Icon_Feat_Mobility.png)
Nimble Reaction: +1/+2/+3 Armor Maximum Dexterity Bonus and Maximum Dodge Bonus


AP Cost (http://ddowiki.com/page/Action_point): 1
Progression (http://ddowiki.com/page/Progression): 5
Requires: Acrobatic



Shintao
Meditation of War: Toggle: You gain additional benefits in different stances:

Water Stance: +5 Insight bonus to Maximum Dodge Bonus. You deal 10% less damage with attacks.



A Shintao halfling Ninja Spy could theoreticaly get a max dodge cap of 36.

Sources of dodge to hit cap:(not counting buffs)

6 (6 monk levels)
4 (grand master water stance)
6 (uncanny dodge [gives +1 dodge at 4, 6, 8, 12, 16, and 20.])
3 (ninja spy enh)
3 (halfling dodge enh)
3 (dodge feat)
2 (mobility feat)
2 (spring attack feat)
3 (shadarkai pastlives)
1 Haste / Blinding Speed
2 Combat Archery
12 Dodge item
------------
47
------------

Anyone that makes that investment in dodge deserves the full 47% dodge imo.

Todkaninchen
08-05-2014, 02:49 PM
The solution to having your dodge restricted by an armor's dodge cap is to not wear armor...

Switch over to outfits or robes--many still have decent AC bonuses on them--plus if you're max DEX anyway, will keep you from having that cut off as well.

I would also--as others have suggested--pick up or craft a blurry item (green steel accessory with a displacement clicky and skill boosts works, Ring of Shadows Heroic Elite or higher, the bracers from the Cannith challenges...) and a ghostly item (there's a cloak from Tempest Spine that also comes with a green slot on it. List here: http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Ghostly_items_ ) to enhance your miss chances. Then use the dodge clicky when things get heavy.

autochthon
08-05-2014, 08:03 PM
The solution to having your dodge restricted by an armor's dodge cap is to not wear armor...

Switch over to outfits or robes--many still have decent AC bonuses on them--plus if you're max DEX anyway, will keep you from having that cut off as well.

I would also--as others have suggested--pick up or craft a blurry item (green steel accessory with a displacement clicky and skill boosts works, Ring of Shadows Heroic Elite or higher, the bracers from the Cannith challenges...) and a ghostly item (there's a cloak from Tempest Spine that also comes with a green slot on it. List here: http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Ghostly_items_ ) to enhance your miss chances. Then use the dodge clicky when things get heavy.

Not the core issue being discussed at this point. Dodge has an inherent cap that's trivial to meet without even needing enhancements.