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BigErkyKid
04-27-2014, 04:55 AM
First of all this is not a finished build. rather, a thread asking for suggestions until I feel comfortable TRing my main melee into this. This build will either be EE capable or not happen at all.

What I am looking for is a TWF bard (dual TF kopeshes) ---and makes use of synergies from the bard trees. If this is an awful idea, please do point out why and Tramuntana will be put down.

UPDATE: It has been suggested that I could go THF. I think this would mean going fighter and giving up on saves. Any thoughts on that combination? It would also require being very careful pulling fascinated mobs.

The requirements of the build:

- Reliable CC in EE.
- Substantial DPS
- Evasion (not clear whether reflex saves will be good enough, but it never hurts to have it anyway)

The build split

10 Bard / 9 ranger / 1 FVS

10 bard reach lvl4 spells, including dimension door and FoM. It also provides a healthy duration for songs and a good number of them.
9 ranger give you evasion, archery feats and TWF feats. In addition it adds some extra HP compared to bard levels (2HP per level)
1 FVS for divine might.

Regardless of the bard levels, you can still invest double points into perform and UMD, which is possible given the abundance of points of the ranger levels. Hence, fascinate shouldn t suffer from the loss of bard levels

Starting abilities (using all around +3 tomes)

STR 16 - 7 level ups.
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 8
CHA 16

Feats

Human (1)- Empower healing
Level ups (7) - greater TFW, IC slash, IC pierce, proficiency kopesh, stunning blow, quicken, precision
Epic feats (3) - Epic damage reduction, bulkward defense / blinding speed (the build is SP tight...), epic reflexes
Epic destiny (2) - perfect TWF, lasting inspiration / tactician

THF version feats

Human (1)- power attack
Level ups (7) - cleave, great cleave, IC slash, stunning blow, quicken, precision, empower healing
Epic feats (3) - Epic damage reduction, bulkward defense / blinding speed (the build is SP tight...), epic reflexes
Epic destiny (2) - lasting inspiration , tactician

Saves

Reflex: 47 sustainable without ship buffs / tensers and lacking items such as luck or insightful.

17 base + 4 epic levels + 2 bulkward + 2 epic reflexes + 9 DEX + 4 morale + 9 resist item + 1 haste

As a reference, this is the save achieved by the Avatar of Eilistraee, which means that with the proper gear and tomes, my build would have around 6 additional reflex points. 57-61 is a respectable save, IMO.

Ref: 51/55 – (11 base +4 epic +15 dex +4 morale +10 resistance +2 luck +1 competence +1 Ship +1 haste /+4 insightful)


Specific questions :

1. How reliable can be the CC.
2. How to pump saves.

cru121
04-27-2014, 05:33 AM
While I agree that alignment restrictions should be lifted for bards... They are still in place.

Requiem_83
04-27-2014, 08:17 AM
I build all my bards to be able to CC through songs/perform in EE. In my experience, if you max out perform skill while lvling, have a good perform item, decent charisma ability score, charisma skill boost item, etc... You should be fine using fascinate/enthrall in EE for CC. Even my bards that only have a perform skill in the 60s do just fine in EE singing songs. Of course my main with a 106 perform skill is a little more reliable in that area, 8-).

Cardtrick
04-27-2014, 10:22 AM
You can get incredibly high Perform without blowing a feat on Epic Reflexes. The fact that they have a CC option based on a skill check rather than a stat remains the single most useful feature of bards.

It is a shame to get 14 bard levels and not get 15+. The 15th bard level opens up Inspire Heroics -- which is not important for itself, but because that in turn opens up the epic bard feat Inspire Excellence (http://ddowiki.com/page/Inspire_Excellence). This is probably the bard's best party buff in the current game.

It's your choice -- you have to give up either ameliorating strike, Inspire Excellence, or Evasion. There's no way to get all 3.

That said, I don't really understand your goals here anyway. You're looking for EE-capable CC, but you're also building for evasion on a character without paladin or monk levels. What is your plan for achieving a high enough Reflex save for that evasion to actually be useful in EE content?

BigErkyKid
04-27-2014, 12:56 PM
You can get incredibly high Perform without blowing a feat on Epic Reflexes. The fact that they have a CC option based on a skill check rather than a stat remains the single most useful feature of bards.

It is a shame to get 14 bard levels and not get 15+. The 15th bard level opens up Inspire Heroics -- which is not important for itself, but because that in turn opens up the epic bard feat Inspire Excellence (http://ddowiki.com/page/Inspire_Excellence). This is probably the bard's best party buff in the current game.

It's your choice -- you have to give up either ameliorating strike, Inspire Excellence, or Evasion. There's no way to get all 3.

That said, I don't really understand your goals here anyway. You're looking for EE-capable CC, but you're also building for evasion on a character without paladin or monk levels. What is your plan for achieving a high enough Reflex save for that evasion to actually be useful in EE content?


Thanks for the comment. As you mentioned, I don t currently see how to get high enough reflexes. This is one of the main points I was hoping I could get some tips on. In any case, I was looking for comments such as yours. I have avoided bards like the plague even though I do have a taste for them (played a barbardian as a young PnP fan), the reason being that although I do enjoy flavor, I also like being competitive as a build.

The goal is to build a melee with CC and the flavor of a barbardian. In terms of power gaming, the CC should make up for the loss of DPS from the bard. I do love the fact that you can be helpful for a group, as opposed to the selfishness of the blitzer.

BigErkyKid
04-30-2014, 09:55 AM
Updated OP, would be greatful if some experience bard gave me some comments!

Seikojin
04-30-2014, 12:11 PM
Why not drop the need for evasion and pick up ameliorating strike from cleric 4. So do 10/6/4 Bard, ranger, cleric. Do dex focused and ignore the divine might. Use light weapons or scimi's. I think with the proper stat distro, your cc will be fine. I am going to assume you have enough past lives to get 36 point builds.

Here is a pretty generic build..

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 28 Neutral Good Human Male
(6 Ranger \ 4 Cleric \ 10 Bard \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 369
Spell Points: 866
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 17
Will: 14

Starting Ending
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28)
Strength 11 14
Dexterity 16 19
Constitution 14 17
Intelligence 14 17
Wisdom 9 12
Charisma 16 19

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 2
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 2
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 2
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 2
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 2
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 2
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 5
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 5
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 5
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 5
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 5
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 5
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 10
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 10
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 10
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 10
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 10
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 10

Ending
Base Skills
Skills (Level 28)
Balance 4
Bluff 4
Concentration 7
Diplomacy 27
Disable Device n/a
Haggle 27
Heal 24
Hide 4
Intimidate 4
Jump 6
Listen 1
Move Silently 27
Open Lock n/a
Perform 27
Repair 3
Search 3
Spellcraft 11
Spot 1
Swim 2
Tumble n/a
Use Magic Device 27

Level 1 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Human Bonus) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Charm
Feat: (Automatic) Fascinate
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Courage
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak


Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Feat: (Automatic) Bow Strength
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Feat: (Automatic) Wild Empathy


Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Automatic) Rapid Shot
Feat: (Automatic) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 4 (Ranger)
Feat: (Automatic) Diehard


Level 5 (Ranger)
Feat: (Automatic) Precise Shot


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Automatic) Archer's Focus
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Heroic Durability


Level 7 (Ranger)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Manyshot


Level 8 (Cleric)
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Turn Undead


Level 9 (Cleric)


Level 10 (Cleric)


Level 11 (Cleric)


Level 12 (Bard)


Level 13 (Bard)
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Competence


Level 14 (Bard)


Level 15 (Bard)


Level 16 (Bard)
Feat: (Automatic) Suggestion


Level 17 (Bard)


Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Inspire Courage


Level 19 (Bard)
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Greatness


Level 20 (Bard)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Smite Foe (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Resilience of Battle (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Toughness (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Toughness (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Sacred Touch (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Sacred Touch (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Sacred Touch (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Smite Weakness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Wall of Steel (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Wall of Steel (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Wall of Steel (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame: Saving Throws (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame: Saving Throws (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame: Saving Throws (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame: Energy Absorption (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Ameliorating Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Skaldic Rage (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Fighting Spirit (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Inspired Bravery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Inspired Bravery (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Inspired Bravery (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Enchant Weapon (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Rough and Ready (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Rough and Ready (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Rough and Ready (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Boast (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Boast (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Boast (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Action Boost: Sprint (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Action Boost: Sprint (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Action Boost: Sprint (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Ironskin Chant (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Ironskin Chant (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Ironskin Chant (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Frozen Fury (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Frozen Fury (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Frozen Fury (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Inspire Recklessness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Inspire Recklessness (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Inspire Recklessness (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Shield of Whirling Steel (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Tempest (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Graceful Death (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Item Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Reaction (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Reaction (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Reaction (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Parry (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Parry (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Parry (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Dodge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Dodge (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Dodge (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Haste Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Haste Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Haste Boost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Elaborate Parry (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Elaborate Parry (Rank 2)


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Automatic) Epic: Epic Skills


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)


Level 27 (Epic)


Level 28 (Epic)



No stats spent, only the +3 tomes and a couple of feats selected, allowing you to fill in what you'd want to help bolster your cc'ing capabilities. The heist cc spell you'd have is ottos dancing sphere.

cru121
04-30-2014, 12:23 PM
Going dex based on a build with access to Ram's Might, Skaldic Rage, Divine Might and Rage spell - feels somehow wrong.

BigErkyKid
04-30-2014, 12:26 PM
Why not drop the need for evasion and pick up ameliorating strike from cleric 4. So do 10/6/4 Bard, ranger, cleric. Do dex focused and ignore the divine might. Use light weapons or scimi's. I think with the proper stat distro, your cc will be fine. I am going to assume you have enough past lives to get 36 point builds.

Here is a pretty generic build..

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 28 Neutral Good Human Male
(6 Ranger \ 4 Cleric \ 10 Bard \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 369
Spell Points: 866
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 17
Will: 14

Starting Ending
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28)
Strength 11 14
Dexterity 16 19
Constitution 14 17
Intelligence 14 17
Wisdom 9 12
Charisma 16 19

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 2
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 2
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 2
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 2
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 2
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 2
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 5
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 5
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 5
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 5
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 5
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 5
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 10
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 10
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 10
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 10
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 10
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 10

Ending
Base Skills
Skills (Level 28)
Balance 4
Bluff 4
Concentration 7
Diplomacy 27
Disable Device n/a
Haggle 27
Heal 24
Hide 4
Intimidate 4
Jump 6
Listen 1
Move Silently 27
Open Lock n/a
Perform 27
Repair 3
Search 3
Spellcraft 11
Spot 1
Swim 2
Tumble n/a
Use Magic Device 27

Level 1 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Human Bonus) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Charm
Feat: (Automatic) Fascinate
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Courage
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak


Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Feat: (Automatic) Bow Strength
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Feat: (Automatic) Wild Empathy


Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Automatic) Rapid Shot
Feat: (Automatic) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 4 (Ranger)
Feat: (Automatic) Diehard


Level 5 (Ranger)
Feat: (Automatic) Precise Shot


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Automatic) Archer's Focus
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Heroic Durability


Level 7 (Ranger)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Manyshot


Level 8 (Cleric)
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Turn Undead


Level 9 (Cleric)


Level 10 (Cleric)


Level 11 (Cleric)


Level 12 (Bard)


Level 13 (Bard)
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Competence


Level 14 (Bard)


Level 15 (Bard)


Level 16 (Bard)
Feat: (Automatic) Suggestion


Level 17 (Bard)


Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Inspire Courage


Level 19 (Bard)
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Greatness


Level 20 (Bard)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Smite Foe (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Resilience of Battle (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Toughness (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Toughness (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Sacred Touch (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Sacred Touch (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Sacred Touch (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Smite Weakness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Wall of Steel (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Wall of Steel (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Wall of Steel (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame: Saving Throws (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame: Saving Throws (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame: Saving Throws (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame: Energy Absorption (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Ameliorating Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Skaldic Rage (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Fighting Spirit (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Inspired Bravery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Inspired Bravery (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Inspired Bravery (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Enchant Weapon (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Rough and Ready (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Rough and Ready (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Rough and Ready (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Boast (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Boast (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Boast (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Action Boost: Sprint (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Action Boost: Sprint (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Action Boost: Sprint (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Ironskin Chant (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Ironskin Chant (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Ironskin Chant (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Frozen Fury (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Frozen Fury (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Frozen Fury (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Inspire Recklessness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Inspire Recklessness (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Inspire Recklessness (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Shield of Whirling Steel (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Tempest (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Graceful Death (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Item Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Reaction (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Reaction (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Reaction (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Parry (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Parry (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Parry (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Dodge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Dodge (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Dodge (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Haste Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Haste Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Haste Boost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Elaborate Parry (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Elaborate Parry (Rank 2)


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Automatic) Epic: Epic Skills


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)


Level 27 (Epic)


Level 28 (Epic)



No stats spent, only the +3 tomes and a couple of feats selected, allowing you to fill in what you'd want to help bolster your cc'ing capabilities. The heist cc spell you'd have is ottos dancing sphere.

Thanks for the comment. Remember stunning blow though!

BigErkyKid
04-30-2014, 12:43 PM
Totally off main topic:

Seems fun but... once again it trades alot of DPS in order to achieve not-so-useful things like some buff, FoM, DDoor, Fascinate (+/- useful, it depends with who you play).

I did 2 warchanter multiclass lives since the new pass and I must say that the tree is very weak. Not knowing where to put my AP would be a concern with that build. By that I mean it might lack of real good options once you've depleted the tempest tree and you'll end up spending point on situationals to useless stuff. Unless you're gonna pull out that bow enought to justify the points spent.

All that is being said in consideration that you are looking to run purely EEs. Don't get me wrong, it will work as any build will with a decent gameplay (yay for action games) but it's not gonna be amazing even if pushed to it's limit compared to more DPS focused build that comes with innate self healing. At least Bard does provide some kind of self healing.

And might wanna swap one of the 2 IC for the range one if you ever settle on the use of a specific weapon as that will be a simple way to increase your overall DPS output.

So here is the deal. This build is aimed at combining CC with DPS. I think this is the main advantage of bards, as it has been pointed out in this thread.

Currently, to steam roll over mobs, I only see the blitzing + burst healing builds. Take Cetus as a prime example. Perhaps there are more, I just haven-t seen them.

But I don-t want a Cetus alike. I want something a bit different. This got me thinking and the bard has perhaps the least DC demaning CC, which is fascinate. You can still go heavy melee and pull a good fascinate, from what I have seen.

So this is aimed to leverage on that while still keeping a decent DPS.

Combined with stunning blow, pulling small groups of mobs and finishing them off. That would be the strategy.

Regarding the IC, it is a typo, I meant to take the ranged one! :D

Azarddoze
04-30-2014, 12:56 PM
So here is the deal. This build is aimed at combining CC with DPS. I think this is the main advantage of bards, as it has been pointed out in this thread.

Currently, to steam roll over mobs, I only see the blitzing + burst healing builds. Take Cetus as a prime example. Perhaps there are more, I just haven-t seen them.

But I don-t want a Cetus alike. I want something a bit different. This got me thinking and the bard has perhaps the least DC demaning CC, which is fascinate. You can still go heavy melee and pull a good fascinate, from what I have seen.

So this is aimed to leverage on that while still keeping a decent DPS.

Combined with stunning blow, pulling small groups of mobs and finishing them off. That would be the strategy.

Regarding the IC, it is a typo, I meant to take the ranged one! :D

Gotcha. Think I had a hard time figuring out if you were a powergamer looking for optimal stuff only or not. My comments obviously took into account that you were looking for something different yet that would pwn stuff.

Really the best part of action games is that your gameplay / mobility / reflexes can make anything viable. My experience with fascinate (in pug - not me using it) in EEs is that it gets broken all the time... like by me. Unless you prove me that we need CCs in order to success, I won't allow them! Heh

Still my main concern would be that APs might be wasted in stuff that are useless (aka not bringing up DPS or relevant survivability - like shadow veil would for exemple). It's gonna be more fun/complete to play (granted people let you CC) than a simple one trick all out full ****** blitzing dps. Not as strong though.

Mercureal
04-30-2014, 01:11 PM
So here is the deal. This build is aimed at combining CC with DPS. I think this is the main advantage of bards, as it has been pointed out in this thread.

Currently, to steam roll over mobs, I only see the blitzing + burst healing builds. Take Cetus as a prime example. Perhaps there are more, I just haven-t seen them.

But I don-t want a Cetus alike. I want something a bit different. This got me thinking and the bard has perhaps the least DC demaning CC, which is fascinate. You can still go heavy melee and pull a good fascinate, from what I have seen.

So this is aimed to leverage on that while still keeping a decent DPS.

Combined with stunning blow, pulling small groups of mobs and finishing them off. That would be the strategy.

Regarding the IC, it is a typo, I meant to take the ranged one! :D

A few observations and comments:

You have the same feat list for the TWF and THF versions - I assume that's a copy-paste error? And you have Precision as a feat but no large source of sneak attack, which is where the main value of that feat usually derives.

Have you plotted out a reliable and sustainable DC for your Stunning Blow? If your goal is EE but you won't hit the benchmarks for it, it might be better to drop SB and use the choice for something else.

Are you taking IC: Ranged to go with Furyshot? If so, remember that they're (maybe) considering changes to how it works; if not, it probably won't help make non-adrenaline ranged DPS any more meaningful, at least in EE.

unbongwah
04-30-2014, 01:13 PM
Unless you want a bard PL, I would consider rgr 12 / bard 7 / <splash> 1 instead.

Drawbacks: lose lvl 4 bard spells, Inspire Greatness, and +1 to Insp Courage; shorter duration of bard buffs.
Advantages: gain two more free feats (GTWF and IPS), +10% offhand procs from lvl 12 Tempest, an extra FE & +2 dmg; also lvl 3 rgr spells but they mostly stink.

Basically, this build gets a decent bump in DPS, both melee & ranged; and the extra feats give you more wiggle room. Losing DDoor and FoM are unfortunate, but you can UMD the former and gear up for the latter; the bigger loss is CCW, IMHO.

BigErkyKid
04-30-2014, 01:27 PM
First, thank you very much for the insightful comments.


A few observations and comments:

You have the same feat list for the TWF and THF versions - I assume that's a copy-paste error? And you have Precision as a feat but no large source of sneak attack, which is where the main value of that feat usually derives.

Have you plotted out a reliable and sustainable DC for your Stunning Blow? If your goal is EE but you won't hit the benchmarks for it, it might be better to drop SB and use the choice for something else.

Are you taking IC: Ranged to go with Furyshot? If so, remember that they're (maybe) considering changes to how it works; if not, it probably won't help make non-adrenaline ranged DPS any more meaningful, at least in EE.

Precision is used to pile up with other sources of fortification piercing, such as black scale robes, grim precision or other twists. If it doesn-t stack, then it is my bad and please do let me know. I find fortification bypass to be an extremely important feature in end game.

As for stunning blow, I see it as a long term investment. I do have combat mastery times, although I don-t own a stunning ring yet. I think it is sufficiently relevant to keep it since I don-t see an equally powerful investment as an alternative. As a build template feat, I think it is good. Of course one may adjust based on the expectation that it lands, gear and desired difficulty of questing.

Finally, the ranged option is taken to pump ranged burst damage. Again, if you have any suggestion on an alternative useful feat, I ll be thankfull and happy to consider it.



Unless you want a bard PL, I would consider rgr 12 / bard 7 / <splash> 1 instead.

Drawbacks: lose lvl 4 bard spells, Inspire Greatness, and +1 to Insp Courage; shorter duration of bard buffs.
Advantages: gain two more free feats (GTWF and IPS), +10% offhand procs from lvl 12 Tempest, an extra FE & +2 dmg; also lvl 3 rgr spells but they mostly stink.

Basically, this build gets a decent bump in DPS, both melee & ranged; and the extra feats give you more wiggle room. Losing DDoor and FoM are unfortunate, but you can UMD the former and gear up for the latter; the bigger loss is CCW, IMHO.

I considered going for fewer bard levels, but the main drawback I see is even fewer bard songs (and as you point out shorter). If I understand correctly, you get a bard song per level and rest. So 7+enhancements might be a bit tight to keep skaldic up and fascinate available.

It all depends on what the extra feats available would be used on. Do you have any suggestions?

Mercureal
04-30-2014, 02:49 PM
The feat choices are really judgment calls, dependent on play style, gear, etc. Stunning Blow is great if you can get it into the 60s, or maybe 50s if you just want to use it on lower-fort save enemies; an alternate feat could be sap, which has a longer duration and no save, but also only acts as a single target melee fascinate effect so no helpless damage multiplier.

Precision stacks with those other effects you mentioned, but still only adds 25%. It will help the occasional crit land that might not otherwise, but the value of that depends on the degree to which you depend on criticals, how much extra damage you get from them, and how often you get them. Alternately, Power Attack gives you a bonus to damage per hit.

I don't think there is a directly comparable alternate feat to IC: Ranged. Only you can determine the relative value of that for your build idea. It seems to me that a non-adrenaline Manyshot every few minutes isn't going to benefit a huge amount from slightly better crit range, but its possible that you have a lot of based range damage and maybe a Pinion, so it could be worthwhile. Point Blank shot could give you a bit of a boost to ranged damage and can be made more effective with some DW Stalker enhancements. Completely different feats that could benefit your build could be Extend (for buffs), Skill Focus: Perform (if you feel the need for a few more points to your DCs), maybe Spell Focus: Enchant (+1 is pretty weak though and likely won't make a huge difference either).

All just ideas to consider, they may not satisfy your plan at all, of course.

BigErkyKid
04-30-2014, 03:19 PM
The feat choices are really judgment calls, dependent on play style, gear, etc. Stunning Blow is great if you can get it into the 60s, or maybe 50s if you just want to use it on lower-fort save enemies; an alternate feat could be sap, which has a longer duration and no save, but also only acts as a single target melee fascinate effect so no helpless damage multiplier.

Precision stacks with those other effects you mentioned, but still only adds 25%. It will help the occasional crit land that might not otherwise, but the value of that depends on the degree to which you depend on criticals, how much extra damage you get from them, and how often you get them. Alternately, Power Attack gives you a bonus to damage per hit.

I don't think there is a directly comparable alternate feat to IC: Ranged. Only you can determine the relative value of that for your build idea. It seems to me that a non-adrenaline Manyshot every few minutes isn't going to benefit a huge amount from slightly better crit range, but its possible that you have a lot of based range damage and maybe a Pinion, so it could be worthwhile. Point Blank shot could give you a bit of a boost to ranged damage and can be made more effective with some DW Stalker enhancements. Completely different feats that could benefit your build could be Extend (for buffs), Skill Focus: Perform (if you feel the need for a few more points to your DCs), maybe Spell Focus: Enchant (+1 is pretty weak though and likely won't make a huge difference either).

All just ideas to consider, they may not satisfy your plan at all, of course.

Thanks again for the comments.

For the stunning blow, as I said, I see it as an long term investment. The big value for me is to be able to pull fascinated mobs and then stun them.

As for precision, if you compare its 25% with the other source of fortification bypass, it is really a huge boost. Given that I am going for khopeshes, the build does rely a lot on crits. Besides, the pleasure of criting a skelly alone might be enough :)

For the rest, the alternative that I see is extend, but I see it mainly as utility and as a less SP efficient way of buffing.

I would be particularly interested in hearing what you would have to say regarding an alternative THF build.


PS - Been a while since the last TWF heroic life, any good weapons besides GS to carry me through? I ll probably be doing PDK with a lesser heart.

Cardtrick
04-30-2014, 05:10 PM
PS - Been a while since the last TWF heroic life, any good weapons besides GS to carry me through?

The elemental khopeshes of water from the Cannith challenges are insanely good. Good enough that it's not worth crafting greensteel khopeshes for general purpose DPS weapons. (Be sure to craft holy and bleed onto the tier 3 versions of the water khopeshes.)

BigErkyKid
05-01-2014, 07:07 AM
I have avoided in all my lives Cannith challenges. I find them incredibly annoying :P

I do however play eStar ones. Great XP and a nice testing ground for abilities.

Yesterday I TRed my melee into an iconic and started playing Tramuntana.

So far, it plays really well. For instance, the ability frozen fury is just gold by mid teens. I reliably freeze them, then pawn them.

DPS is not stellar, but it is reasonable with a couple of alliegances.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Allegiance_(Level_14)

In groups, the buffs are appreciated. When soloing, fascinate works very well.

I managed to solo the first fight in Tor with a hire (that died, no joke, after 10 seconds of starting) at level 15 (no displacement yet). Fascinate goes a long way together with frozen fury.

I expect stunning blow to fill in after frozen becomes useless at higher levels. This is something I just hate, how abilities do not scale and become just a waste.

I did not manage to finish the quest, since silly me I invited a guildy and scaling became unbearable. Seriously, I guess that in other characters I haven-t realized so much, but I guess this one was just cutting it. Encouraging me to solo in a MMO...

Anyway, after seeing the abilities at work, I can tell that fascinate is pretty handy for my playstyle and based on my experience I don-t think this character will suffer too much DPS wise from the bard choice, given how it was build to start with.

However, at first sight I can tell that a large number of the bard abilities will not scale well at higher levels, bringing the power of the build down by a fair amount.

I-ll keep posting my experience with it as I level.