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jellyfish21
04-23-2014, 07:53 PM
I have been playing around with bard builds since 2006.

I definitely have come to the conclusion that TWF bards are the highest DPS bard build. Inspire Courage works best with TWF builds.

I suggest that bards sing only two songs for the entire dungeon: inspire courage and song of heroism. If you have a weak party, then also fascinate.

You need only three spells: masters touch, rage and displacement. Use haste only before level 11.

Go true bard without multi-classing, which will give you the highest spell pen. for Otto's, which you need for boss fights, getting (1) enlarge spell just for it.

There is no need for quicken, but you do need (2) extend. Maximize concentration.

Forget oversized TWF. Use small weapons in the off hand.

Take (3) Toughness, (4) Improved Critical and (5) Power Attack. Take (6) TWF & (7) ITWF.

Maximize the Perform skill. Approximately, take 15, 10 and 5 ranks in the other skills, balancing your skills.

Start your abilities with a maximum STR and enough DEX for ITWF (Counting on at least a +2 tome). You need at least a 12 CHA and CON.

Bards are utility, so fill in your characters other qualities with just that.

Happy Hunting.

BoBoDaClown
04-23-2014, 09:37 PM
I have been playing around with bard builds since 2006.

I definitely have come to the conclusion that TWF bards are the highest DPS bard build. Inspire Courage works best with TWF builds.
Fatesinger also plays nice with twf. Howeve, your OC requirements and LD play nice wih THF.
I suggest that bards sing only two songs for the entire dungeon: inspire courage and song of heroism. If you have a weak party, then also fascinate.
Very limiting. Inspire Excellence, Spellsong Trance, Spellsong Vigor, Enthrall, occasionally Song of Capering are useful
You need only three spells: masters touch, rage and displacement. Use haste only before level 11.
Limiting. On a dps bard heals are also very useful. On a CC bard, the spell variety is obviously greater. Why haste until 11?
Go true bard without multi-classing, which will give you the highest spell pen. for Otto's, which you need for boss fights, getting (1) enlarge spell just for it.
You can't ottos red or purple names. Nice to see you see the use of another spell. The best bous of going pure is the heal spell.
There is no need for quicken, but you do need (2) extend. Maximize concentration.
Concentrate = failed checks on EE. Quicken = vital heals landed.Extend is a quality of life feat, but not needed.
Forget oversized TWF. Use small weapons in the off hand.
Use whatever weapons, dont worry about the feat
Take (3) Toughness, (4) Improved Critical and (5) Power Attack. Take (6) TWF & (7) ITWF.
I skip on toughness these days. Too many other feats needed. You're missing a lot of feats. Check some other builds out
Maximize the Perform skill. Approximately, take 15, 10 and 5 ranks in the other skills, balancing your skills.

Start your abilities with a maximum STR and enough DEX for ITWF (Counting on at least a +2 tome). You need at least a 12 CHA and CON.
One of the feats you missed was GTWF. You prob want OC and Emp Heal. Stats depend on build choices; lots of choices
Bards are utility, so fill in your characters other qualities with just that.
Yes they are
Happy Hunting.
You seemed to have missed a lot

TheGuyYouKnow
04-23-2014, 11:37 PM
did you by chance take a very long break from 09 to 2014?

BoBoDaClown
04-24-2014, 12:06 AM
did you by chance take a very long break from 09 to 2014?

That thought crossed my mind.

No mention of ED or epic levels

stoerm
04-24-2014, 01:53 AM
Not sure if this serious.


Use haste only before level 11.

Can you explain this for a non-experienced bard? Do you have a min level 11 item with +15 speed on it?

Regarding quicken and Concentration (http://ddowiki.com/page/Concentration):

Allows you a chance to continue casting a spell after being damaged or otherwise interrupted. When you take damage you roll a D20 + your Concentration score against a difficulty class of 10 + the damage received + the level of the spell you are trying to cast.

Let's say you have 100 concentration score and roll 20 every time. To not fail a cure light wounds (lvl 1 spell), then 120 >= 10 + damage + 1. That means you never receive more than 109 damage?

How are you going to land disco balls with a starting 12 charisma?

There are many ways to skin a TIMTOWTDI, as they don't say. I'm having fun with my "Smash Hits" bard. Nothing original, it's really a 2HF half orc template in the style of the Battle Soul: 2 fighter levels for feats and haste boost; max str; dump main casting stat; quicken, empower heal, cleaves and 2HF line. Currently wearing SoS, marilith chain, torc and concopp. I used the same template for a cleric life, and this one is as good or better. Not exactly an EE build, and more of a bass player than a virtuoso, but delivers those smash hits and can top the charts in heroics.

BoBoDaClown
04-24-2014, 02:31 AM
Not sure if this serious.



Can you explain this for a non-experienced bard? Do you have a min level 11 item with +15 speed on it?



Maybe Jorgundals, which is ml12 and gives 10% alacrity. I' d rather have the extra 5% of haste and save an item slot.

However, if that is the reason, you can use a crafted alacrity trinket, plus casting expedious retreat, from lvl one to have an 'almost haste'.

I questioned if it was serious, but answered just in case

jellyfish21
04-24-2014, 03:42 AM
Quicken and enlarge have distinctive differences.
With enlarge, you are out of melee range for Otto's Irresistible Dance, requiring no concentration checks. Without enlarge, you very frequently miss: you have to face the enemy.
This is the largest flaw of Otto's which is remedied with enlarge.

Anything that stops you from swinging your weapon brings your DPS lower.
Heal out of combat and get yourself a heal bot.
The more you sing, the less you swing.
Items with speed six are all equivalent to haste with the exception of your +1 AC and +1 reflex bonuses.
Your level 15 Wheloon speed item is better than speed six.
Extend is very important for rage and displacement. The more you cast the less you swing.
With a bard, two-handed weapons have a DPS less than two weapon fighting because inspire courage effects one weapon that is large and effects two weapons that are medium and small.
Empower healing, empower and maximize are all for your healing line of spells as well as your greater shout. The more you cast the less you swing. Get rid of these feats on a DPS bard.

Otto's Dancing Sphere is a CC spell, enchantment. Your fascinating DC is more than twice your enchantment DC.
(An increase CHA improves both DC's. However, you need STR & DEX more than CHA & CON) With a lower CON, toughness is very good.
Low CHA and a low heal score creates a false confidence in your healing. Your mana points are lower than cleric, fvs, wizard, sorc., druid and artificer. Don't waste the spell points on heals.
If you want a longer lasting fascinate, switch to enthrall, where enemies remain fascinate even after being damaged.

Are you serious about wondering how much I play DDO ?

BoBoDaClown
04-24-2014, 04:15 AM
People are unsure if its serious because you missed gtwf, seemed to pay no attention to epics, and seem blinded to the fact there are many good ways to build a bard.

Haste item and extend I understand as play choices, but are just that; you can get plenty of mileage without them.

Inspire courage plays well with TWF, but doesnt scale well into epic levels, where the OC line, and destinies such as LD favour THF. Nothing wrong with either route.

You no longer get toughness enhancements, reducing the value of toughness on a feat starved build.

Quicken and empower healing equals great healing, allowing you to swing more as you put it. You can't rely on hirelings and I don't know why you would rely on other people as a bard.

Regarding swinging and singing, you have plenty of time to sing while not fighting.

The idea of enlarge with OID is an interesting one. It's not a feat I can fit, but nonetheless a cool idea.

stoerm
04-24-2014, 05:33 AM
Anything that stops you from swinging your weapon brings your DPS lower.
Heal out of combat and get yourself a heal bot.
The more you sing, the less you swing.

This is clearly a melee build. If you are a blue bar melee build and rely on healing out of combat or on a healbot, well I have nothing more to say.



Items with speed six are all equivalent to haste

No. A speed +15 item (http://ddowiki.com/page/Speed) is equivalent to haste (http://ddowiki.com/page/Haste) for melee alacrity.



Empower healing, empower and maximize are all for your healing line of spells as well as your greater shout. The more you cast the less you swing. Get rid of these feats on a DPS bard.
Empower healing also affects Cocoon. If by DPS bard you mean a one trick pony that cannot play a party healer role in a pinch, that's fine.


(An increase CHA improves both DC's. However, you need STR & DEX more than CHA & CON) With a lower CON, toughness is very good.
Low CHA and a low heal score creates a false confidence in your healing. Your mana points are lower than cleric, fvs, wizard, sorc., druid and artificer. Don't waste the spell points on heals.

My bard has enough spell points to heal. He also has conopp and torc, which generate a bit of extra on a melee character. As a pure bard you'll get the Heal spell, too, but don't seem to think it's any use.


Are you serious about wondering how much I play DDO ?
I was seriously wondering about the quality of your advice to the extent thought you might be trolling. I also mistook "Otto's" for disco ball but you must have meant irresistable dance. If this works for you then that's fine.

unbongwah
04-24-2014, 11:19 AM
With enlarge, you are out of melee range for Otto's Irresistible Dance, requiring no concentration checks. Without enlarge, you very frequently miss: you have to face the enemy.
This is the largest flaw of Otto's which is remedied with enlarge.
Hunh, never noticed you can use Enlarge with OID. Considering it's a Touch spell, how does that work? Do you stretch your arm like Reed Richards? :)

Seikojin
04-24-2014, 11:35 AM
Honestly, bards live a life in the limelight for their boosting to everyone else. As long as you help, they will get their love.

However a good bard is not necessarily one limited to twf and metas to boost self sufficiency. Much like every other class in the game; options allow you to make a useable character no matter your build and play style.

jellyfish21
04-24-2014, 07:26 PM
Thanks Stoerm.

Nayo
04-27-2014, 07:35 PM
Hunh, never noticed you can use Enlarge with OID. Considering it's a Touch spell, how does that work? Do you stretch your arm like Reed Richards? :)

Enlarge works with all touch spells actually. Not sure how that physically works, but I'm not complaining! hahaha. I love enlarged OID and SLAs like shocking grasp for my air savant.

As per the OP 'guide'... I agree with the general consensus that there is a lot missing here.

BigErkyKid
04-28-2014, 04:09 AM
I have been playing around with bard builds since 2006.

I definitely have come to the conclusion that TWF bards are the highest DPS bard build. Inspire Courage works best with TWF builds.

I suggest that bards sing only two songs for the entire dungeon: inspire courage and song of heroism. If you have a weak party, then also fascinate.

You need only three spells: masters touch, rage and displacement. Use haste only before level 11.

Go true bard without multi-classing, which will give you the highest spell pen. for Otto's, which you need for boss fights, getting (1) enlarge spell just for it.

There is no need for quicken, but you do need (2) extend. Maximize concentration.

Forget oversized TWF. Use small weapons in the off hand.

Take (3) Toughness, (4) Improved Critical and (5) Power Attack. Take (6) TWF & (7) ITWF.

Maximize the Perform skill. Approximately, take 15, 10 and 5 ranks in the other skills, balancing your skills.

Start your abilities with a maximum STR and enough DEX for ITWF (Counting on at least a +2 tome). You need at least a 12 CHA and CON.

Bards are utility, so fill in your characters other qualities with just that.

Happy Hunting.

For the haste part, no it is unlikely that you find an equivalent at lvl.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Haste

http://ddowiki.com/page/Speed

For instance, see the boots min lvl27 I use

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Guardian's_Boots_(Level_27)

You lose 6% melee speed and this is a lvl27 item...

I too make plenty of embarassing mistakes, so you get no aggro from me for that alone.

I am looking to play a bard so no expertise, but if you just want to swing (no fascinate), I think you d be better off playing something else. What I come to look for in a bard is CC. I think that reliable CC in EE is a relatively rare and awesome ability. Coupled with high DPS (although lower than a full DPS build), I think this might be a good alternative to simply steamrolling.

The bit on oversized weapons and light weapons. I think it is very misguided advise. At high level, I doubt that a slight to hit reduction matters one bit.


Two weapon fighting is the art of fighting with a weapon in each hand. Normally, when wielding a weapon in each hand, you suffer a -6 penalty on attack rolls on your primary hand and -10 on your off-hand. Taking the Two Weapon Fighting feat reduces those penalties to -4 for each hand. Finally, if the weapon in your off-hand is a light weapon, the penalty is also reduced by 2. Taking the Oversized Two Weapon Fighting feat allows a character to use a regular weapon in the off-hand without incurring additional penalties.

And finally, Otto s do not work on bosses, last I knew


Works on Orange named, and Epic Monsters.

So mentioning that this is all you need for bosses is very suspicious.

Overall, coming as someone who does not have a great expertise in bards and is looking for advise, I see your post as highly detrimental. I too have vomited bad advise in these forums, but at least I made the effort to try to back it up with numbers. That way people can point out where you are wrong easily and perhaps the discussion is interesting.

In this case, the post is filled with general bad advise, the way I see it, the kind of bad advise you would expect from someone with little, not much, experience in playing bards and DDO in general.