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Oliphant
04-21-2014, 09:43 AM
The closest I've come to doing any real damage was on a Thief Acrobat dex based quarterstaff build I made after the enhancement pass (yeah, I'm that guy). Then I got bored after a few days and abandoned it (used a +20 heart to make it and promptly TR'ed). Now I finally have the 4 pieces for the Epic Antique Greataxe. I also just got the base Sword of Shadow and I have a SoS scroll.

So I'm a bit interested in trying out some melee builds now. Any advice for the melee challenged players out there?

Loromir
04-21-2014, 10:23 AM
The closest I've come to doing any real damage was on a Thief Acrobat dex based quarterstaff build I made after the enhancement pass (yeah, I'm that guy). Then I got bored after a few days and abandoned it (used a +20 heart to make it and promptly TR'ed). Now I finally have the 4 pieces for the Epic Antique Greataxe. I also just got the base Sword of Shadow and I have a SoS scroll.

So I'm a bit interested in trying out some melee builds now. Any advice for the melee challenged players out there?


12/8 Fighter Cleric. Tier 5 Kensai and the rest warpriest. The cleric levels will be just enough to make you self sufficient and give you access to divine might. Go for as high str/con/chr as you can get. Human is a good choice for this.

Pretty simple an effective build.

See: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/426765-Kensei-Warpriest-for-new-players-(Human-12-8-Fighter-Cleric)?highlight=ellis

Oliphant
04-21-2014, 10:33 AM
Thanks Kinggartk

I notice you suggest Tier 5 Kensai with no monk levels. It seems to be the gold standard for fighter builds. What's the main attraction to Kensei? It sounds like this would be a heavy armor build.

Do enemies have fortification? Any standard approach for bypassing?

Loromir
04-21-2014, 10:45 AM
Thanks Kinggartk

I notice you suggest Tier 5 Kensai with no monk levels. It seems to be the gold standard for fighter builds. What's the main attraction to Kensei? It sounds like this would be a heavy armor build.

Do enemies have fortification? Any standard approach for bypassing?

I like Kensai 5 for Keen edge. So you need fighter 12 for that. I took the 8 lvls cleric for best self healing I can get. There will be other healing options once you reach epic lvls obviously, but I just felt 8 cleric was as low as I could justify going (Cure Critical/deathward etc). I went with more the high PRR/Dr route. Saves are a bit lower and have no evasion, but this is still a fun and solid build.


I don't think there are very many mobs with 100% fortification.

I acutally had one of these running before I saw ellisdee's build and was happy to see someone else doing the same thing.


With Divine might and kensai power surge, you can get your str pretty high for 60+ secs. I run primarily in Legendary dreadnaught and have primal scream twisted.

Oliphant
04-21-2014, 10:50 AM
Thanks again, Kinggartk

If a mob has 50% fortification, does that mean that my crits will fail 50%? Anyone know the average fortification and whether you can completely overcome it?

Cardtrick
04-21-2014, 10:51 AM
I don't think there are very many mobs with 100% fortification

Every undead. Every construct. Every elemental.

The "endgame," such as it is, actually involves a lot of undead right now.

PsychoBlonde
04-21-2014, 11:00 AM
Thanks Kinggartk

I notice you suggest Tier 5 Kensai with no monk levels. It seems to be the gold standard for fighter builds. What's the main attraction to Kensei? It sounds like this would be a heavy armor build.

Do enemies have fortification? Any standard approach for bypassing?

The main attraction of Kensai for a non-monk build is the boost to damage and also the level 12 core ability which gives you temporary +8 strength. *For the most part* you only need to worry about fort bypass if you're a sneak attack build where your sneaks are the main component of your damage. Aside from undead and non-living constructs the most heavily fortified critter in the game is the Lord of Blades and I think he's only got around 60-80% fort depending on difficulty.

If you want to use your Antique or SoS this cleric/fighter thing is actually a poor choice, though (unless you go warforged), because the cleric part only gets its weapon bennies for your deity's chosen weapon, which for humans is either longbow or longsword. Not the best weapons for a heavy DPS build. In addition Divine Might doesn't do much for you unless you invest in Cha, and at that point you might as well take a couple of paladin levels in order to get the saving throws.

My personal favorite heavy DPS build is a Rogue 13/Monk 6/Druid 1 staff build with a Sirieth. With Master's Blitz it is a beast and even without the damage is pretty massive. It has decent survivability but to make best use of your DPS you want a CC caster to follow you around and keep the groups of enemies from squashing you like a bug. Trading the Druid for 2 Paladin is also viable and helps with the saving throws issue. Note that the Druid buils HAS to be Lawful Neutral and the Paladin build HAS to be Lawful Good.

If you want to use your Antique or SoS probably you will want to do something like 14 fighter/4 paladin/2 monk or even 18 barbarian/2 rogue. Something you might want to try is a con-stacked dwarven barbarian/rogue using con for damage with the greataxe. Personally I detest barbarian due to the low survivability--it's vastly superior currently to do a Bladeforged with an SoS or other heavy greatsword simply because of the amount of self-healing you get. Bladeforged also don't get -cha the way dwarves do.

Cardtrick
04-21-2014, 11:16 AM
If you want to use your Antique or SoS probably you will want to do something like 14 fighter/4 paladin/2 monk or even 18 barbarian/2 rogue. Something you might want to try is a con-stacked dwarven barbarian/rogue using con for damage with the greataxe. Personally I detest barbarian due to the low survivability--it's vastly superior currently to do a Bladeforged with an SoS or other heavy greatsword simply because of the amount of self-healing you get. Bladeforged also don't get -cha the way dwarves do.

Or if you have access to Bladeforged, just go with the Cetus (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/433254-Cetus-The-Supreme-Bladeforged-Fighter) build. There's a reason it's the king of melees.

Saekee
04-21-2014, 11:38 AM
My personal favorite heavy DPS build is a Rogue 13/Monk 6/Druid 1 staff build with a Sirieth. With Master's Blitz it is a beast and even without the damage is pretty massive. It has decent survivability but to make best use of your DPS you want a CC caster to follow you around and keep the groups of enemies from squashing you like a bug. Trading the Druid for 2 Paladin is also viable and helps with the saving throws issue. Note that the Druid buils HAS to be Lawful Neutral and the Paladin build HAS to be Lawful Good.


Great pointers here. Note also that a Level 20 monk with Tier 5 henshin but the Ninja Spy Capstone makes Sireth both expanded crit mod/range and a vorpal weapon (it does slashing/piercing damage). If you go dark, every mob you kill will give you and your group 100 hp+ healing amp. You also gain all the goodies of being a level 20 Monk.

Loromir
04-21-2014, 11:55 AM
Every undead. Every construct. Every elemental.

The "endgame," such as it is, actually involves a lot of undead right now.

Right...but you can't bypass that fortification. He was looking for ways of bypassing fort.

Nodoze
04-21-2014, 12:00 PM
I am running Cetus's BladeForged build and like it immensely:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/433254-Cetus-The-Supreme-Bladeforged-Fighter

EDIT: Regarding weapons I am using the ThunderForged Falchion and like it very much but the weapons you have and/or are working on should work as well.

I don't have completionist and from memory took gTHF instead. I think on a 32 or 34 point build you could drop 1 point of Strength and not loose to much. If you don't otherwise have the recommended tomes you will need to adjust your starting stats to make sure you hit the minimums for the feats.

While it has great damage (and is crazy when blitzing) it also has about the best damage mitigation you can get from 25% Incorp and good Dodge assuming you have or build GreenSteel Displacement clickies. Personally I currently only get blur from my party-mates or from a ring of Shadows and it still seems very survivable for me.

The main complaint I have is that it does take awhile to fully bloom via the turned based Divine Might as you have to level your Epic Destinies over into the divine sphere to twist 'Bane of Death' from Divine Crusader... If you are starting on a new toon and have no EDs you could look to add more divine levels until you grind out your EDs and then later LR+X into the full build after you get your EDs ground out. It also doesn't have much mana so grinding a Bauble really helps (I haven't had any luck yet and rely on mana pots).


Right...but you can't bypass that fortification. He was looking for ways of bypassing fort.Regarding Fort on the Cetus build there is an option to bypass up to 70% of an undead's fort via the combo of a Fully upgraded mournlode docent + 35% armor piercing + grim precision = 70% fort bypass

A link to where it is discussed is here:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/433254-Cetus-The-Supreme-Bladeforged-Fighter?p=5293121&viewfull=1#post5293121

Cardtrick
04-21-2014, 12:03 PM
Right...but you can't bypass that fortification. He was looking for ways of bypassing fort.

You absolutely can bypass that fortification. It's pretty much essential to playing a pure rogue, and useful for others as well.

Loromir
04-21-2014, 12:04 PM
The main attraction of Kensai for a non-monk build is the boost to damage and also the level 12 core ability which gives you temporary +8 strength. *For the most part* you only need to worry about fort bypass if you're a sneak attack build where your sneaks are the main component of your damage. Aside from undead and non-living constructs the most heavily fortified critter in the game is the Lord of Blades and I think he's only got around 60-80% fort depending on difficulty.

If you want to use your Antique or SoS this cleric/fighter thing is actually a poor choice, though (unless you go warforged), because the cleric part only gets its weapon bennies for your deity's chosen weapon, which for humans is either longbow or longsword. Not the best weapons for a heavy DPS build. In addition Divine Might doesn't do much for you unless you invest in Cha, and at that point you might as well take a couple of paladin levels in order to get the saving throws.

My personal favorite heavy DPS build is a Rogue 13/Monk 6/Druid 1 staff build with a Sirieth. With Master's Blitz it is a beast and even without the damage is pretty massive. It has decent survivability but to make best use of your DPS you want a CC caster to follow you around and keep the groups of enemies from squashing you like a bug. Trading the Druid for 2 Paladin is also viable and helps with the saving throws issue. Note that the Druid buils HAS to be Lawful Neutral and the Paladin build HAS to be Lawful Good.

If you want to use your Antique or SoS probably you will want to do something like 14 fighter/4 paladin/2 monk or even 18 barbarian/2 rogue. Something you might want to try is a con-stacked dwarven barbarian/rogue using con for damage with the greataxe. Personally I detest barbarian due to the low survivability--it's vastly superior currently to do a Bladeforged with an SoS or other heavy greatsword simply because of the amount of self-healing you get. Bladeforged also don't get -cha the way dwarves do.

Sure that's nice for a q-staff build. This is about taking advantage of EAGA or SOS.

There are tons of builds out there. I'm not missing much by losing out on the cleric favored weapons...what maybe +2 or +3 damage? The DPS and survivability of this build are actually very nice., I've played on to 28, TR'd and am back to 21 so far. This build does DPS comparable to any of the pure fighters and Barbs I've played and has the added benefit of self healing.

I'm not arguing that a centered kensai or cetus build might be better, but this is a simple and very effective build. Try playing one before you call it gimp.

HungarianRhapsody
04-21-2014, 12:16 PM
Or if you have access to Bladeforged, just go with the Cetus (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/433254-Cetus-The-Supreme-Bladeforged-Fighter) build. There's a reason it's the king of melees.

I'm not running Cetus right now for a couple of specific reasons that suit me personally, but I'll absolutely say that his build is just flat out objectively better than mine.

If you feel the need for Improved Evasion, you can bump up Monk to 9 levels and drop Fighter back a bit, but it's a meaningful loss to give up that 12th level of Fighter.

Nodoze
04-21-2014, 12:22 PM
... There are tons of builds out there. ... This build does DPS comparable to any of the pure fighters and Barbs I've played and has the added benefit of self healing.

I'm not arguing that a centered kensai or cetus build might be better, but this is a simple and very effective build. Try playing one before you call it gimp.

I'm not running Cetus right now for a couple of specific reasons that suit me personally, but I'll absolutely say that his build is just flat out objectively better than mine.

If you feel the need for Improved Evasion, you can bump up Monk to 9 levels and drop Fighter back a bit, but it's a meaningful loss to give up that 12th level of Fighter.Even though I referenced the Cetus build above and play it on one of my alts I agree that there are lots of good builds out there that can do decent/good DPS and many of them work in good survivability as well. Those melee based upon BladeForged have the advantage that they don't have to mix in a Heroic class to get self healing (like a Divine or an Arcane class) due to the racial reconstruct SLA and can focus on more melee heroic DPS classes. it also doesn't hurt that there are other good things in the BF racial tree that you may want on top of the racial reconstruct.

Cardtrick
04-21-2014, 12:25 PM
I'm not running Cetus right now for a couple of specific reasons that suit me personally, but I'll absolutely say that his build is just flat out objectively better than mine.

Right, me neither. I'm a bit resistant to centered builds, even when I recognize their superiority. And I have this stupid hipster desire not to do whatever the generally-agreed-upon best thing is.

But I still understand DDO mechanics well enough to know that if the Cetus build isn't the current best possible melee build, it's at least within a few percent of being the best.

So when the OP says he's got an eAGA and is working on an eSOS, and that he was bored with his last "flavor" melee build, has never done "real damage" on a melee, and is "melee challenged" . . . it just seems like the obvious answer is to suggest a build that can make good use of the weapon he has and will attain very nearly optimal melee performance. If he tries it and doesn't like it, that's fine -- melee isn't for everyone. But if you want to give it a fair shake, using the best build (or close to it) seems like a good start.

Nodoze
04-21-2014, 12:35 PM
Right, me neither. I'm a bit resistant to centered builds, even when I recognize their superiority. And I have this stupid hipster desire not to do whatever the generally-agreed-upon best thing is.

But I still understand DDO mechanics well enough to know that if the Cetus build isn't the current best possible melee build, it's at least within a few percent of being the best.

So when the OP says he's got an eAGA and is working on an eSOS, and that he was bored with his last "flavor" melee build, has never done "real damage" on a melee, and is "melee challenged" . . . it just seems like the obvious answer is to suggest a build that can make good use of the weapon he has and will attain very nearly optimal melee performance. If he tries it and doesn't like it, that's fine -- melee isn't for everyone. But if you want to give it a fair shake, using the best build (or close to it) seems like a good start.I am not either on my Main which is actually a 12FvS/6M/2P melee FvS which gets damage from hybrid sources (melee/spells/debuffs). That being said I do like my BF Alt and recommend that build if someone wants to get a feel on what true all-out melee is like especially when effectively blitzing...

Up till recently I mainly played Divines or heavy Divine splashes and my first experience as a blitzer was fooling around in Thunderholme and I cleared the entire thing while under blitzs. When I solo I typically run with 5 pikers at the door (they give buffs and run up to rez if needed & otherwise just loot) so there are lots of extra mobs... I ran the BF and the timers were such that I was able to keep from loosing the blitz while going from group to group & level to level and it was totally crazy... I had done the entire instance previously on my self-healing tank but it was much slower and the blitz was a nice change...

HungarianRhapsody
04-21-2014, 12:43 PM
Right now, the build that I am actually using is a Bladeforged
Mnk 9 (Improved Evasion = even though I suck at this game, I won't die as often)
/Druid 3 (I can make myself a fleshie dog for easier healing in raids)
/ Ftr 8 (because that's all the levels I had left).

It's not as much DPS and not as high of saving throws, but it's more forgiving of stupid mistakes that I make since I don't have good gear and/or tomes. And I like turning from a toaster into a dog. :)

Loromir
04-21-2014, 01:22 PM
You absolutely can bypass that fortification. It's pretty much essential to playing a pure rogue, and useful for others as well.

So you can bypass fort and land crits on undead and contructs?

Cardtrick
04-21-2014, 01:45 PM
So you can bypass fort and land crits on undead and contructs?

Yes, both crits and sneak attacks.

There are actually even items that only give fort bypass against undead and constructs (which seem to stack with normal fort bypass) -- check out the Blasting Chime (constructs) and Mournlode armors (undead) from the Cannith challenges.

Nodoze
04-21-2014, 02:10 PM
So you can bypass fort and land crits on undead and contructs?Yes, both crits and sneak attacks.

There are actually even items that only give fort bypass against undead and constructs (which seem to stack with normal fort bypass) -- check out the Blasting Chime (constructs) and Mournlode armors (undead) from the Cannith challenges.I had updated my earliest post in this thread around 12:24 but that would be easy to miss if one had already read my initial post so I am re-posting an example of stacking here at the bottom of this thread...

Regarding Fort on the Cetus build there is an option to bypass up to 70% of an undead's fort via the combo of a Fully upgraded mournlode docent + 35% armor piercing + grim precision = 70% fort bypass

A link to where the 70% Fort Bypass is discussed is here:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5293121 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/433254-Cetus-The-Supreme-Bladeforged-Fighter?p=5293121&viewfull=1#post5293121)

I am not sure exactly how/which stacking works but this combo may be safe due to one source being an item with Armor Piercing, another being Weaken Undead, and the third being an Epic Destiny...

Not to derail this thread but a discussion on Amor Piercing is actually going on currently here:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/441018-Armor-Piercing

If I notice confirmed changes to anything above I will try to remember to report back any corrections (unless Cardtrick or someone else beats me to it)...

Nodoze
04-21-2014, 02:14 PM
Right now, the build that I am actually using is a Bladeforged
Mnk 9 (Improved Evasion = even though I suck at this game, I won't die as often)
/Druid 3 (I can make myself a fleshie dog for easier healing in raids)
/ Ftr 8 (because that's all the levels I had left).

It's not as much DPS and not as high of saving throws, but it's more forgiving of stupid mistakes that I make since I don't have good gear and/or tomes. And I like turning from a toaster into a dog. :)Interesting mechanic and I didn't know that turning into Druid Wolf form made a BF a fleshie...

Does being in Wolf form make your Reconstruct SLA stop working (I assume yes but wanted to confirm)?

Have you posted that build and how high are your saves on that build (I guess with Improved Evasion they don't matter as much)?

HungarianRhapsody
04-21-2014, 02:44 PM
Interesting mechanic and I didn't know that turning into Druid Wolf form made a BF a fleshie...

Does being in Wolf form make your Reconstruct SLA stop working (I assume yes but wanted to confirm)?

Have you posted that build and how high are your saves on that build (I guess with Improved Evasion they don't matter as much)?

I cannot reconstruct myself when I'm a wolf, but I am easier to be healed in a raid. I find that I tend to hang out as a wolf for a while and then I'll swap over to a toaster again to self-heal once things get weird in the raid.

Also, the wolf has faster attack speed and gets the benefits of TWF, but that's apparently a bug and will be going away eventually. With the bug that allows TWF feats to apply with Druid wolves (I didn't know it was a bug at the time), the wolf form is very attractive. Without that, it's absolutely garbage. If they fix that eventually, I'll probably TR.

My saves are pretty much the same as Cetus, but without the Cha bonus to saves that he gets. His build is absolutely better because of that. I'll seriously miss Gust of Wind if I do TR, though.

Loromir
04-21-2014, 03:15 PM
Yes, both crits and sneak attacks.

There are actually even items that only give fort bypass against undead and constructs (which seem to stack with normal fort bypass) -- check out the Blasting Chime (constructs) and Mournlode armors (undead) from the Cannith challenges.


Learn something everyday.

Oliphant
04-21-2014, 11:49 PM
Cool builds and good info

The natural form of the wolf had me fooled for a bit when I rolled up a bladeforged druid (I don't recall how that happened). I was upset that your Reconstruct doesn't work on yourself until I finally figured out that I was a fleshie in wolf form.

mkmcgw17
05-01-2014, 09:19 PM
The closest I've come to doing any real damage was on a Thief Acrobat dex based quarterstaff build I made after the enhancement pass (yeah, I'm that guy). Then I got bored after a few days and abandoned it (used a +20 heart to make it and promptly TR'ed). Now I finally have the 4 pieces for the Epic Antique Greataxe. I also just got the base Sword of Shadow and I have a SoS scroll.

So I'm a bit interested in trying out some melee builds now. Any advice for the melee challenged players out there?

I have a Barbarian/Rogue 14/2 that i really like playing but hes not self healing although he can use scrolls and wands. Everyone will tell you u cant play ddo without monk and pally levels and evasion ignore them. Originality and character plus skill are more valuable than a perfect build. But i'm old school team player not many left mainly just gaggles of soloists running as fast as they can.