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geoffhanna
03-10-2014, 03:40 PM
Not Damage Per Second, but Hits. The flurriest of Flurry of Blows.

I believe this would be achieved by:


maximizing two weapon fighting offhand chance
maximizing doublestrike
maximizing melee alacrity


I am looking to put together an unarmed combat build with the highest possible sustainable HPS (hits per second). It has to be mainly monk, which may actually limit HPS, as it rules out druid Celerity, ranger Whirlwind and paladin Zeal because those all require more than 10 non-monk levels. (I could be persuaded on the Ranger or Paladin thing but not the Celerity. Wolf fighting is boring)

I am also setting aside druid Action Boost (because it is not sustainable), anything that requires a shield, and bard Inspire Recklessness (because it does not stack with doublestrike equipment).

I think that leaves a monk in Wind stance, augmented by 1-4% doublestrike from the Eldritch Knight tree (1% Eldritch Strike, 2% Martial Training, 1% Spellsword), and the additional 10% offhand proc chance in Tempest (Tempest core ability).

Am I right?

Also, there is another big doublestrike bonus in the Killer enhancement (ranger 4 Deepwood Sniper 4 or rogue 4 Assassin), that I think counts as sustainable because it can be earned on every kill, stacks, and lasts 15 seconds per stack. But you are committing four levels to ranger to get it.

Anyway, this is leading to a Monk9/Ranger4 (23AP)/Wizard7 (11AP) that has Haste and Displacement or a Monk14/Ranger4 (23AP)/Wizard2 (7AP) that trades Displacement for another 1.5% doublestrike in Wind stance.

Any thoughts on all this? Am I doing this right?

Epic choices are easy: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting, and past life feat Double Strike x3.

I feel like I am missing something. Maybe several somethings.

Grailhawk
03-10-2014, 03:56 PM
Not Damage Per Second, but Hits. The flurriest of Flurry of Blows.

I believe this would be achieved by:


maximizing two weapon fighting offhand chance
maximizing doublestrike
maximizing melee alacrity


I am looking to put together an unarmed combat build with the highest possible sustainable HPS (hits per second). It has to be mainly monk, which may actually limit HPS, as it rules out druid Celerity, ranger Whirlwind and paladin Zeal because those all require more than 10 non-monk levels. (I could be persuaded on the Ranger or Paladin thing but not the Celerity. Wolf fighting is boring)

I am also setting aside druid Action Boost (because it is not sustainable), anything that requires a shield, and bard Inspire Recklessness (because it does not stack with doublestrike equipment).

I think that leaves a monk in Wind stance, augmented by 1-4% doublestrike from the Eldritch Knight tree (1% Eldritch Strike, 2% Martial Training, 1% Spellsword), and the additional 10% offhand proc chance in Tempest (Tempest core ability).

Am I right?

Also, there is another big doublestrike bonus in the Killer enhancement (ranger 4 Deepwood Sniper 4 or rogue 4 Assassin), that I think counts as sustainable because it can be earned on every kill, stacks, and lasts 15 seconds per stack. But you are committing four levels to ranger to get it.

Anyway, this is leading to a Monk9/Ranger4 (23AP)/Wizard7 (11AP) that has Haste and Displacement or a Monk14/Ranger4 (23AP)/Wizard2 (7AP) that trades Displacement for another 1.5% doublestrike in Wind stance.

Any thoughts on all this? Am I doing this right?

Epic choices are easy: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting, and past life feat Double Strike x3.

I feel like I am missing something. Maybe several somethings.


I haven't replicated it (and I've tried and do kind of doubt it based on my own test, It could be a bug on my toon though) but it doesn't look like Tempest works with unarmed any more.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/436048-Need-advice-for-ranger-past-life?p=5255814&viewfull=1#post5255814

geoffhanna
03-10-2014, 04:19 PM
Are we sure this is really a bug and not just a stacking issue? I am guessing that Deft Strikes and Tempest are not supposed to stack? Maybe?

Hmm. Regardless, that makes ranger less attractive, although the Killer enhancement still beckons enticingly.

90% offhand proc is still pretty good. Until Perfect Two Weapon fighting, and then it is 100% again. Unless Perfect TWF is bugged too?

Grailhawk
03-10-2014, 04:35 PM
Are we sure this is really a bug and not just a stacking issue? I am guessing that Deft Strikes and Tempest are not supposed to stack? Maybe?

Its a handwrap thing as Def Strikes and Tempest stack when centered and fighting with two weapons.



Hmm. Regardless, that makes ranger less attractive, although the Killer enhancement still beckons enticingly.

90% offhand proc is still pretty good. Until Perfect Two Weapon fighting, and then it is 100% again. Unless Perfect TWF is bugged too?

Perfect Two Weapon Fighting does not give Offhand Proc it gives you 5% Doublestrike and 10% Off hand Doublestrike which is not the same as off hand proc rate.


Offhand double strike would mean that with 100% off hand and PTWF you would have about ~0.5% chance of attacking 4 times in one swing.

geoffhanna
03-10-2014, 05:01 PM
Perfect Two Weapon Fighting does not give Offhand Proc it gives you 5% Doublestrike and 10% Off hand Doublestrike which is not the same as off hand proc rate.

Righto, reading comprehension and all that, thank you for the pointer.

Any comments on anything else from the OP?

A related question:


A level 20 monk in wind stance with perfect TWF and three primal epic past lives would have 27% sustained doublestrike plus equipment.
A level 17 monk/3 wizard (or sorceror) would have 27.5%
A level 13 monk/3 wizard (or sorceror)/4 ranger would have between 27.5 and 42.5% (assumes that Killer, unlike Tempest, works with unarmed combat)



Is that all correct too? It is possible to get over 27.5% using unarmed combat?

Grailhawk
03-10-2014, 05:29 PM
Righto, reading comprehension and all that, thank you for the pointer.

Any comments on anything else from the OP?

A related question:


A level 20 monk in wind stance with perfect TWF and three primal epic past lives would have 27% sustained doublestrike plus equipment.
A level 17 monk/3 wizard (or sorceror) would have 27.5%
A level 13 monk/3 wizard (or sorceror)/4 ranger would have between 27.5 and 42.5% (assumes that Killer, unlike Tempest, works with unarmed combat)



Is that all correct too? It is possible to get over 27.5% using unarmed combat?

Note that Meditation of War in the Shintao tree could give you 100% off hand procs how ever I don't think its worth the penalty (+10% incoming damage).

Double strike Brake down I get is.
03% Black Dragon Set
03% Hail of Blows Twist
05% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
09% Epic Past Life Martial x3
08% Skirmisher's Bracers
10% Windstance
38% Total

Not sure if you were counting gear in there or not.

Wizard 3 is worth another 3% ( I would rather have Druid DS Action boost and Hast boost)

Elf has 3% in its tree, its not worth burnning the AP to get it though.

Also note (though i wouldn't take it as its not worth the penalty)

I'm not a fan of Killer so I don't know what it works with and what it doesn't.

Haste + 38% DS 10% Offhand DS 90% Offhand using handwraps comes out to around 4.22 Attacks per Second. 2.46 Main Hand APS, 1.76 Offhand APS

30% Hast Boost takes that to 5.59 APS, 3.25 Main Hand 2.33 Off hand.

30% DS From Druid Action boost would make it 4.75 APS, 2.99 Main Hand 1.76 Offhand.

41% DS (Wizard Option) would make it base 4.27 APS 2.51 Main Hand 1.76 Offhand

I would want A build with both Haste Boost and Doublestrike Boost over the build with the Wizard levels. Though i would probably just do a 16/2/2 Monk/Fighter/Paladin build.

geoffhanna
03-10-2014, 05:58 PM
Note that Meditation of War in the Shintao tree could give you 100% off hand procs how ever I don't think its worth the penalty (+10% incoming damage).

Double strike Brake down I get is.
03% Black Dragon Set
03% Hail of Blows Twist
05% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
09% Epic Past Life Martial x3
08% Skirmisher's Bracers
10% Windstance
38% Total

Not sure if you were counting gear in there or not.

Wizard 3 is worth another 3% ( I would rather have Druid DS Action boost and Hast boost)

Elf has 3% in its tree, its not worth burnning the AP to get it though.

Also note (though i wouldn't take it as its not worth the penalty)

I'm not a fan of Killer so I don't know what it works with and what it doesn't.

Haste + 38% DS 10% Offhand DS 90% Offhand using handwraps comes out to around 4.22 Attacks per Second. 2.46 Main Hand APS, 1.76 Offhand APS

30% Hast Boost takes that to 5.59 APS, 3.25 Main Hand 2.33 Off hand.

30% DS From Druid Action boost would make it 4.75 APS, 2.99 Main Hand 1.76 Offhand.

41% DS (Wizard Option) would make it base 4.27 APS 2.51 Main Hand 1.76 Offhand

I would want A build with both Haste Boost and Doublestrike Boost over the build with the Wizard levels. Though i would probably just do a 16/2/2 Monk/Fighter/Paladin build.

Thanks for the breakdown. No I wasn't including gear.

The haste boost IS pretty sweet. One can also get Killer from the rogue trees, which means rogue Haste boost is available too.

SardaofChaos
03-10-2014, 06:05 PM
Note that Meditation of War in the Shintao tree could give you 100% off hand procs how ever I don't think its worth the penalty (+10% incoming damage).

Pure monk could grab the shintao capstone core to negate the penalty from meditation of war, among other things. Don't know if that would offset the bonus from the ranger thing.

Grailhawk
03-10-2014, 06:05 PM
Thanks for the breakdown. No I wasn't including gear.

The haste boost IS pretty sweet. One can also get Killer from the rogue trees, which means rogue Haste boost is available too.

The thing with rogue haste boost is its in Thief which means burning 5AP to get to it there's nothing I would want to take in Thief Tier 1 on a non Quarterstaff build. But it is an option.

Nightmanis
03-10-2014, 06:41 PM
Righto, reading comprehension and all that, thank you for the pointer.

Any comments on anything else from the OP?

A related question:


A level 20 monk in wind stance with perfect TWF and three primal epic past lives would have 27% sustained doublestrike plus equipment.
A level 17 monk/3 wizard (or sorceror) would have 27.5%
A level 13 monk/3 wizard (or sorceror)/4 ranger would have between 27.5 and 42.5% (assumes that Killer, unlike Tempest, works with unarmed combat)



Is that all correct too? It is possible to get over 27.5% using unarmed combat?

3 Druid. Get's you fatal harrier (25% haste boost, 10% higher than the spell) and doublstrike +30% action boost.

Daitengu
03-11-2014, 03:04 AM
What is Haste for if you are running in wind stance?

geoffhanna
03-11-2014, 05:57 AM
What is Haste for if you are running in wind stance?

It makes up the difference in attack speed between a build with 12 levels of Monk and one with 18.

Is that incorrect? Or were you asking something else?

Even a maxed out Wind Stance monk benefits from Haste boost, yes?

Daitengu
03-11-2014, 08:17 AM
Even a maxed out Wind Stance monk benefits from Haste boost, yes?No, I think Haste doesnt stack with wind stance.

Snarglefrump
03-11-2014, 09:05 AM
It makes up the difference in attack speed between a build with 12 levels of Monk and one with 18.

FYI - Grandmaster of Forms can now be taken at character level 18 as a feat on a toon that has only 12 levels of monk.

geoffhanna
03-11-2014, 10:43 AM
FYI - Grandmaster of Forms can now be taken at character level 18 as a feat on a toon that has only 12 levels of monk.

Oh, nice! 10% from monk AND 3 or 4% from wizard! I thought it was either/or but you can have both!

geoffhanna
03-12-2014, 10:31 AM
Any other thoughts? Or have we identified peak Fists Per Second?

Grailhawk
03-12-2014, 04:30 PM
Pure monk could grab the shintao capstone core to negate the penalty from meditation of war, among other things. Don't know if that would offset the bonus from the ranger thing.


Any other thoughts? Or have we identified peak Fists Per Second?

I would say that SardaofChaos identified the peak Fists Per Second as a 20 Monk in wind stance (Need to twist in Haste boost from LD)

If you are interested numbers are:
4.41 APS 2.46(Main) 1.96 (Off) unBoosted
5.85 APS 3.25(Main) 2.59(Off) with 30% Haste Boost.

Snarglefrump
03-12-2014, 06:42 PM
If you have more than a 100% chance to proc an offhand attack, do you have a chance to proc more attacks? Or is 110% offhand no better than 100%? Likewise, is more than 100% double strike useful?

Ninja Spy's shadow double gives +100% doublestrike for 6 seconds with a 30 second cooldown, averaging +20% double strike.

TeacherSyn
03-13-2014, 09:44 AM
To add to others:

Training to level 3 Shadowdancer gives you Shadow Training IV, which adds Shadow Walk to your build (a pure Monk doesn't need this; they get Empty Body at 19) but also a passive 3% Profane bonus to Doublestrike that should stack with the Morale bonus of Ultimate Wind Stance's doublestrike.

ArcaneArcher52689
03-13-2014, 11:50 AM
So, what we really want to do is maximize 3 things separate things: double strike, attack speed, offhand attack chance. The best way to maximize these attributes would be 11/6/3 monk/ranger/druid.
11 monk maintains your 10+ monk rule
6 ranger gives access to killer as well as exposing strike, which takes advantage of your bonus attacks.
3 druid gives access to nature's warrior for the doublestrike action boost as well as fatal harrier

For double strike:
monk gm wind stance gives 10%
gmof gives an additional 6%
3 pastlives gives a 9%
5% perfect twf feat
-that's the end of our character based sustainable doublestrike, with 30%
however, between killer and NW, we can have an additional 30% from action boost, and 20% from killer, so without gear, that gives us a possible doublestrike of 80%.

Attack speed:
windstance- 15% boost to attack speed
fatal harrier- 25% boost to attack speed
centered BAB of 19- almost highest possible BAB
haste boost available from tempest-not sure if this is worth getting after grabbing double strike AB, especially since you can twist the one from LD

Off hand proc chance:
deft strikes- 10%, full twf line 80%, for a total of 90%. Hard to get anymore while remaining unarmed.

geoffhanna
03-13-2014, 07:59 PM
Thank you for the responses! This is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping to have. :)

Snarglefrump
03-13-2014, 09:17 PM
Ieen playing high hits-per-second builds for a few years now. They're a blast. At level 12 with the Frozen Tunic and Vampiric Stonedust Handwraps, you have three different abilities that can independently proc and make the enemy helpless (Greater Stone Prison, Freezing Ice, and Stunning). The toon is a veritable statue maker at those levels. I switch to Banishing wraps for the Vale.

Great Cleave is another way to increase your hits/second, but only when you're fighting a group.

geoffhanna
03-14-2014, 06:54 AM
Ieen playing high hits-per-second builds for a few years now. They're a blast. At level 12 with the Frozen Tunic and Vampiric Stonedust Handwraps, you have three different abilities that can independently proc and make the enemy helpless (Greater Stone Prison, Freezing Ice, and Stunning). The toon is a veritable statue maker at those levels. I switch to Banishing wraps for the Vale.

Great Cleave is another way to increase your hits/second, but only when you're fighting a group.

Ah hah! someone playing a monk/ranger already! So you can answer this question:

Does the Killer enhancement work when you are in unarmed combat?

Snarglefrump
03-14-2014, 11:47 AM
Ah hah! someone playing a monk/ranger already! So you can answer this question:

Does the Killer enhancement work when you are in unarmed combat?

I've been working on grinding out Fighter 9 / Monk 9 / Rogue 2 lives to pick up the +1 Tactics from Fighter past lives. Anyone with Veteran Status II could roll up a toon to test.

Raoull
03-14-2014, 12:42 PM
If you go really crazy with doublestrike it may not be worth it, but I recently started playing with Shadow Double. It is pretty awesome. Definitely a larger DPS increase than upping the base die to 1d8.

It is rather bursty (6 seconds out of 30 you have almost a 50% DPS boost), but that is sometimes a good thing.

geoffhanna
03-14-2014, 12:43 PM
I've been working on grinding out Fighter 9 / Monk 9 / Rogue 2 lives to pick up the +1 Tactics from Fighter past lives. Anyone with Veteran Status II could roll up a toon to test.

Oh, wait, you are right, and I have veteran status ... hmmm ... hold on ...

Snarglefrump
03-14-2014, 12:58 PM
If you go really crazy with doublestrike it may not be worth it, but I recently started playing with Shadow Double. It is pretty awesome. Definitely a larger DPS increase than upping the base die to 1d8.

It is rather bursty (6 seconds out of 30 you have almost a 50% DPS boost), but that is sometimes a good thing.

+1. Shadow Double (monk) * Haste Boost (ranger, fighter, or rogue) * Damage Boost (human) = nasty burst DPS :-)

geoffhanna
03-14-2014, 01:40 PM
And the answer: yes it does! Most audaciously in fact. Although at the cost of 26 AP, most of which is getting things that are nice but not of primary importance for the build.

Snarglefrump
03-23-2014, 08:59 PM
Does Reconstruct stack? The wiki entry (http://ddowiki.com/page/Reconstruct) claims that it does. If so, Bladeforged may be the way to go.

Firewall
03-23-2014, 09:04 PM
Every full 5 points of BAB speed up your attack animation speed so you want to have at least 20.

Also worth to mention: You can take the Blinding Speed epic feat at lvl 27 which gives you a permanent Haste if you cannot get the attack speed bonus anywhere else.

As far as i know Haste Boost stacks with everything else.