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slayerkdm
03-05-2014, 02:10 PM
Hello all,

Been pouring over the forums, tried a few low level characters and now have a question.

I think I want to play a Halfling, unsure why, as I never in any game choose diminutive characters, but for some reason, I quite like the animations on them.

Anyway, I'm looking at a Ranger/Rogue mix. I have read the Trapmonkey thread numerous times and most every other seemingly current thread that has any relation.

I would really like to try a dex based character (another departure from my previous gaming experience) and while I do like my present Ranger, the lack of being able to disable traps and open some locks is more that I can bear. I just have to see what's in them.

So would my best choice be the 15/5 route?
What starting stats seem best? (12,18,14,14,8,8?)

I also would like work with the tempest/Deepwood sniper trees primarily.

Suggestions?

Looks like the Monk addition is very popular, but I think I would rather keep it to just Ranger/Rogue, mixing both melee and ranged as the mood strikes me.

Thanks for any help.

Grailhawk
03-05-2014, 02:53 PM
You would be a lot better of with STR then DEX. You need to bump your STR up enough to take Overwhelming Critical in Epic Levels. You don't have enough Rogue levels to really make a Dex Build. IMO that said if you insist on it what I would do is try and get as much SA as you can

17 Halfling
3d6 Sneak Attack

21 Deepwood
4d6 Sneak Attack

21 Assasin
4d6 Sneak Attack

21 Tempest
100% Offhand procs

Looks like you can pull it off in the AP so that's 14d6 SA (11 from ENH 3 from Rogue Base) you aren't going to win any races but it will be solid. Unfortunately Improved Sneak Attack requires 12 Rogue.

I would still shot for Overwhelming Critical my stats would be


STR 16 +2 Level Ups +5 Tome
CON 14
DEX 16 +5 Level Ups +5 Tome
INT 12
WIS 10
CHA 08

Adjust level ups to get 23 STR base for Overwhelming Critical if you don't have +5 Tomes

for 36 point build i would do
STR 18 +5 Tome
CON 14
DEX 16 +7 Level Ups +5 Tome
INT 12
WIS 10
CHA 08


Feat would be
L01: Power Attack
L03: Cleave
L06: Great Cleave
L09: IC Melee
L12: Dodge
L15: Maximize
L18: Quicken
L21: Overwhleming Critical
L24: IC: Ranged
L26: Perftect Two Weapon Figthing
L27: Point Blank Shot
L28: Double Shot

Skills
Disable, Spot, Search, UMD, Heal

Paladin Past lives would be very useful. Get at least 20+30% Healing amp from gear.

slayerkdm
03-05-2014, 03:10 PM
Thanks for the input Grail,

Probably not the way will go, but appreciate the perspective.

Fedora1
03-05-2014, 03:40 PM
Understand that for a melee a STR build is going to be better every time. Same with ranged when you factor in bow strength.

A second thing to consider, if you really want a good dex build, is an elf rather than halfling due to racial enhancements that can add dex to damage for certain weapons (Longsword/Rapier/Longbow or Scimitars/Falchions/Shortbows).

However, halflings make good rangers and rogues. To maximize the dex advantage you will want to take Weapon Finesse and the Tempest enhancement that allows dex-to-damage with light weapons. Rapiers will be your best bet due to the crit range.

I also really like the halfling dragonmarks, which add considerable survivability, coupled with the ranger Cure Serious Wounds spell as long as you take 14 levels of ranger. If you go to L15 you get a second L4 spell (Freedom of Movement). That leaves 5 levels of rogue for 3d6 SA dice in addition to any enhancements you take. As a TWF tempest you will probably have synergy mostly with the assassin tree.

A Ranger/Rogue is a solid build so just be smmart and don't spread your AP too thin. It's easy to pick all the low hanging fruit on the tier 1 and 2 stuff but you should try to avoid that if possible. Decide really if you want to be primarily melee or ranged and go from there.

slayerkdm
03-05-2014, 07:08 PM
Yes, I'm going to use the Tempest line to get Dex to damage on light weapons. No option for the bow, as I didn't take elf.

I may dabble in AA for a couple arrows, not sure yet.

Does the Mechanics 1st core stack with Deepwoods 1st core?

Cardtrick
03-05-2014, 08:12 PM
I dislike the tendency in these forums for people to post criticisms and suggested builds that are huge departures from what's requested.

You're looking for a halfling dex-based 15/5 ranger/rogue? Sure, maybe it's not optimal, but it's what you think will be fun. We can make it work!

People have mentioned dex to damage with light weapons from Tempest using rapiers. Unless things have changed, unfortunately I'm pretty sure this will not work - rapiers are eligible for weapon finesse (dex to attack) as a special case, but are not true light weapons and therefore not eligible for dex to damage.

One really great option (that I think makes a lot of thematic sense for a halfling) is to get Dagger Specialization from the Assassin tree. The boosts to the crit profile makes daggers extremely dangerous, 5 rogue levels is enough for the relevant enhancement, and they are true light weapons.

It does mean you have to spend quite a few APs on the rogue enhancements, but they won't be wasted and you'll still be able to invest pretty heavily in Tempest and Deepwood Sniper.

If this is something you'd be interested in, I can throw together a starting build for you tonight or tomorrow. I'm assuming no tomes? 28 point build or 32? Any other particular preferences?

slayerkdm
03-05-2014, 08:31 PM
That was my general idea. I had written Rapiers off, as the path to get Dex to Damage was from the Tempest tree. I could change that to the Assasin tree, but I thought some flexibility in weapons might be nice, so I initially started in Tempest.

My starting stats were 13,18,14,12,8,8.

I took 13 in str for Power Attack. After playing my other ranger I found (early levels of course) that once I got dex to attack, I didn't miss much, and that the -5 attack may be doable for power attack, adding some damage to a dex build.

I like the mix, even though I realize its not optimal. I have read on what is endgame optimal, and well, they don't interest me, and Im just starting, so most of those builds seem to be from reincarnation builds, which I don't have, and may never get to.

Sure, would be interested to see what you have in mind.

As for the previous posts, I think they were just trying to help, and have me avoid an inferior build, so I took it that way. Being rather hard headed, I still want to try something a bit different.

Cardtrick
03-05-2014, 09:45 PM
That was my general idea. I had written Rapiers off, as the path to get Dex to Damage was from the Tempest tree. I could change that to the Assasin tree, but I thought some flexibility in weapons might be nice, so I initially started in Tempest.

To me, the big advantages of going with knife specialization for a dex build are:

1. Makes daggers and kukris into not just okay weapons, but excellent weapons -- they will both have better critical profiles than khopeshes, which are weapons that many spend an extra feat to be able to use, and significantly better than rapiers or scimitars.

2. Saves a feat -- no need for weapon finesse, since you get dex to attack and dex to damage with the first 2 cores of the Assassin tree



My starting stats were 13,18,14,12,8,8.

I took 13 in str for Power Attack. After playing my other ranger I found (early levels of course) that once I got dex to attack, I didn't miss much, and that the -5 attack may be doable for power attack, adding some damage to a dex build.


That's actually probably perfect for a 28-point dex build. You're right that having 13 strength for Power Attack is very valuable.


As for the previous posts, I think they were just trying to help, and have me avoid an inferior build, so I took it that way.

You're right. I spend too much time on these forums, and I am too easily annoyed.


Sure, would be interested to see what you have in mind.

Here goes:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Knife Tempest
Level 20 True Neutral Halfling Male
(5 Rogue \ 15 Ranger)
Hit Points: 235
Spell Points: 185
BAB: 18\18\23\28\28
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 24
Will: 8

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 13 13 13
Dexterity 18 23 27
Constitution 14 14 14
Intelligence 12 12 12
Wisdom 8 8 8
Charisma 8 8 8

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Balance 4 8 8
Bluff -1 -1 0
Concentration 4 22 22
Diplomacy -1 -1 2
Disable Device 5 24 24
Haggle -1 -1 -1
Heal -1 10 15
Hide 8 12 16
Intimidate -1 -1 -1
Jump 4 4 6
Listen -1 -1 1
Move Silently 8 12 14
Open Lock 8 22 22
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair 1 1 1
Search 5 24 24
Spellcraft 1 1 1
Spot 3 22 22
Swim 1 1 1
Tumble 5 9 9
Use Magic Device 3 22 22

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 2 (Ranger)
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead


Level 3 (Ranger)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Healing


Level 4 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 5 (Ranger)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Spell (1): Camouflage
Spell (1): Jump
Spell (1): Longstrider
Spell (1): Merfolk's Blessing
Spell (1): Ram's Might
Spell (1): Resist Energy
Spell (1): Summon Nature's Ally I
Spell (1): Tumble


Level 6 (Ranger)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Construct


Level 7 (Ranger)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+6)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 10 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+5)


Level 11 (Rogue)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 12 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 13 (Ranger)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Barkskin
Spell (2): Bear's Endurance
Spell (2): Camouflage, Mass
Spell (2): Cat's Grace
Spell (2): Cure Light Wounds
Spell (2): Hold Animal
Spell (2): Owl's Wisdom
Spell (2): Protection from Energy
Spell (2): Snare
Spell (2): Spike Growth
Spell (2): Summon Nature's Ally II


Level 14 (Ranger)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 15 (Ranger)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Giant


Level 16 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (3): Neutralize Poison
Spell (3): Remove Disease
Spell (3): Summon Nature's Ally III
Spell (3): Wild Instincts


Level 17 (Ranger)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Ranger)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot


Level 19 (Ranger)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Cure Serious Wounds
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
Spell (4): Longstrider, Mass
Spell (4): Summon Nature's Ally IV


Level 20 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
Enhancement: Halfling - Halfling Luck (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Halfling - Dexterity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Halfling - Halfling Luck (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Halfling - Jorasco Dragonmark Focus (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Halfling - Jorasco Dragonmark Focus (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Halfling - Jorasco Dragonmark Focus (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Halfling - Cunning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Halfling - Lesser Dragonmark of Healing (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Halfling - Guile (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Halfling - Greater Dragonmark of Healing (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Halfling - Guile (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Knife in the Darkness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Dagger in the Back (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Shiv (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Shiv (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Shiv (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Venomed Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Bleed Them Out (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Bleed Them Out (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Bleed Them Out (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Dexterity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Critical Damage (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Critical Damage (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Critical Damage (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Killer (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Killer (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Killer (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Dexterity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Knife Specialization (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Shield of Whirling Steel (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Tempest (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Graceful Death (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Deflect Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Reaction (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Reaction (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Reaction (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Whirling Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Whirling Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Haste Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Haste Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Haste Boost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Whirling Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Dexterity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Far Shot (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Sneak Attack (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Exposing Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Increased Empathy (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Increased Empathy (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Increased Empathy (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Versatile Empathy (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Versatile Empathy (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Tendon Cut (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Tendon Cut (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Tendon Cut (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Mechanic (Rog) - Arbalester (Rank 1)




To tell you the truth -- after putting it together, I'm a little less enamored with the idea than I originally was. I think it looks like a fun build to play, but I'm afraid it gets farther away from what you intended than I meant it to. I did wind up spending more in the Assassin tree than the ranger trees, and it winds up being pretty reliant on sneak attack for damage. So I'm worried it'll play more like a rogue than a ranger.

On the other hand, it'll have unusually good DPS for a dex build, with decent sneak attack dice, 100% TWF offhand procs, great crit profiles on daggers, and even decent doublestrike potential from Killer. And quite good self-healing and self sufficiency -- 2 4th level ranger spells (Cure Serious and FOM), halfling dragonmarks of healing, some investment in the Heal skill for positive spell power, Empower Healing, additional positive spellpower from some of the Deepwood Stalker enhancements, UMD for Heal Scrolls.

I took the 5 rogue levels pretty early. I went 1 rogue first for skills, then 6 ranger for Improved Two Weapon Fighting, then 4 rogue to get Knife Specialization as early as reasonably possible. This does hurt skill progression a bit, but really not that much -- rangers still get plenty of skillpoints, and not being able to max out Open Lock or Heal won't hurt anything much.

Feats are super flexible, which is unusual for one of my builds. They're generally tight. But you're not going for Overwhelming Critical, so Cleave and Great Cleave are optional. I took them, because I like them even on TWF, but not everyone does; you could go for more ranged damage by taking Point Black Shot in place of Cleave and Improved Critical: Ranged in place of Great Cleave (which then frees up the L18 feat for something else). You don't have any way to get DEX to damage on bows, which is unfortunate, but as long as you've got this many ranger levels, it's probably worth investing some into ranged DPS. If/when you hit epic levels, you might decide to drop the halfling dragonmark in favor of Cocoon -- doing so would free up both a feat and some enhancements. At that point, you could focus more on ranged damage and/or defense -- Dodge and Mobility would be reasonable additions here.

Anyway, it's just an option -- I think it looks pretty fun to play, but I'm not really sure it fits your goals as well as I had hoped.

Gizeh
03-05-2014, 10:31 PM
Here are a few thoughts I had on weapon choice for a Dex based melee ranger with some rogue levels:

Scimitar: Scimitars count as light weapons if you take the second ranger tempest core enhancement, and the third core enhancement lets you add your Dex modifier to damage with light weapons. This is probably the "cheapest" weapon in terms of feat/AP requirements, and it does have a decent crit range.

Rapier: a rapier is NOT a light weapon, but you can use your Dex modifier for attack if you have Weapon Finesse, and with the second rogue assassin core enhancement you can also add your Dex modifier to all weapons which use your Dex modifier to hit (including rapiers if you have Weapon Finesse). This option costs a feat, but you can not only add your Dex modifier to rapier damage, but also to light mace damage (the only light bludgeoning weapon, which can be useful for fighting skeletons, which seem to be the most numerous undead with a DR based on weapon type).

Dagger/kukri: However, both lose in terms of crit range and crit multiplier when compared to daggers/kukris in the hands of a character with Knife Specialization. This, however, requires some investment in the assassin tree (30 AP to qualify plus 2 AP for the ability).

slayerkdm
03-05-2014, 11:59 PM
Thanks Card,

I will review it and see what parts I like. I do think it dips a bit more into assassin than I wanted, which is what you feared after posting, still, I think it gives me something to look at. One thing I always wonder is, how often do people take the stat enhancments, or is it all from tomes.

Thanks Giz,

I have looked at the Scimitars, and it seems that there are a lot of them. So I may gravitate towards them. I fancy all my characters as undead hunters, so I tend to like to carry a hammer around at times. Light hammers will have to give me my fix.

I was thinking that having three sets of weapons, or combo's of weapons to negate resistance as much as I can as an option.

So far its honestly a bit too easy, which most games like this tend to be, and of course Im a lowly level 3. I like the Rogue splash though, and in the couple groups I have run with, it was helpful.

If I don't run up to the dagger improvement in the assassin line, I wonder if its worth taking so much Rogue. I guess I could do more the TrapMonkey build, but not sure I care of that.

Fedora1
03-06-2014, 06:16 AM
I dislike the tendency in these forums for people to post criticisms and suggested builds that are huge departures from what's requested.

I hope you aren't referring to my post. Two sentences about alternatives to his idea, not knowing if he (as an admittedly new player) had considered - vs 10 sentences worth of commentary on his desired build should not have been taken as criticsim or a huge departure from the OP's request.

As someone else pointed out rapiers can use dex-to-damage with the right enhancements from the assassin tree.

One suggestion if you go the dagger route - a great mid level dagger is Flint, usually available in the AH (or found in the Desert Sands from a rare encounter chest):

http://ddowiki.com/images/Item_Flint.jpg

As far as scimitars, these are a great chocie as well, and there are several really nice named ones out there. For low-mid level this one is not too hard to aquire (Bloody Crypt or AH):

http://ddowiki.com/images/Lacerator.png

Good luck with your character and have fun! As I stated earlier halflings make good rogues, and rogues have nice synergy with rangers.
You will do better in groups than you will solo due to being a little squishy and the fact that much of your dps will come from SA. :)

zachxr100
03-06-2014, 06:29 AM
since the build focuses a lot on sneak attack i would highly recommend thinking about picking up radiance weps (blinds on crit, thus helping your survivability and 100% sneak attack may even add damage if you have no mercy as if i recall blind mobs are considered helpless even though they can still move, and attack although at a dimmenished ability), unfortunately the best way to get them would be through greensteel is likely a bit out of your reach as a newer player, but something to maybe look at for later or if you want to do another life with it.

Brunhildha
03-06-2014, 06:42 AM
Hello all,

Been pouring over the forums, tried a few low level characters and now have a question.

I think I want to play a Halfling, unsure why, as I never in any game choose diminutive characters, but for some reason, I quite like the animations on them.

Anyway, I'm looking at a Ranger/Rogue mix. I have read the Trapmonkey thread numerous times and most every other seemingly current thread that has any relation.
<snip>
Thanks for any help.

Yep, tempest trapmonkey can be great fun. Niwareka is 12 ranger / 7 rogue / 1 fighter, and Str based with full trapping skills but it is the Sneak Attack that makes her fun to play.

Old Tempests, (and Niwa is getting on a bit although she would never admit it) always had a level of fighter or monk for the extra feat, but with Epic Feats that is less needed now. Similarly, Str used to be much easier to boost at higher levels but these days the gap has narrowed.

S.A. damage dwarfs the damage from Str or Dex. So go for one or the other but I wouldn't obsess over it. However you do have to decide now which Epic Feat you will choose later. Overwhelming Crit (with Power Attack, Cleaves chain and high Str) is one way. Improved Sneak Attack (with Precision, and high Dex) is the other. I think Cardtrick and Grailhawk have set out the two directions nicely. However reading your OP, I think you would enjoy the Dex route, even if not the daggers.

Either way it is essential to get the full TWF line because S.A. procs on the off hand as well as main. Effectively this means at least 12 Ranger. I know its only one spell, but I REALLY miss having FoM, to the extent that I think I will change Niwa to 14 Ranger. Every odd level of Rogue gains you another S.A. die, but there are other ways of getting it, so I think 5 is fine, and gets you top tier enhancements if needed. (But I am sure you know that Assassinate is an all-or-nothing thing).

At low levels, I found Power Attack best, but in Epics so many things have enough Fort to blunt my S.A. that Precision seems better.

S.A. needs some gear - RadII, Celestia, Golden Guile etc. to keep the mobs blinded or bluffed, and using Precision for Bosses. Rapiers and shortswords with Dex would work fine given the right feats, so you do not have to do Cardtrick's full dagger version although it sounds interesting. The problem with daggers is not just the low base damage (at high levels you hardly notice) but the low crit range, because the S.A. is amplified by crits. So only use them if you take the right enhancements.

And the trapping? Every now and then it's just sooo handy, despite all the BS about jumping over everything. But rangers get decent skill points, so 12 Int and a +2 Tome is enough to max the three main skills with enough left over for some Bluff, Jump, Open Lock and .... UMD. Think about using the spare points on Cha. Heal and Raise Dead Scrolls are literally life-savers later on, but UMD is another one of those all-or-nothing things.

Anyway, it sounds exciting, so you should have fun!

slayerkdm
03-07-2014, 05:03 PM
Well, my ride to lvl 4 was smooth with the change to pure ranger Halfling. Traps still seem to annoy me at a subconscious level.

After partying a couple times, I see my group tendencies remain the same, a bit of a brain dead rush in to the mobs, or rush over to assist another party member. I never enjoyed healing, but I do enjoy hacking the mobs on a teammate.

So with a bit more play time under my belt, and my propensity to create a zillion characters, until I finally become to exhausted to make another and just stick with the last thing I made, I am thinking I should have went strength, as was early and strongly suggested!

I do enjoy the mix of range and melee, so it seems some ranger is my best bet. The bow seems awfully slow if many mobs are charging in, so I doubt I would be fully happy with a pure ranged character. Though I wish there was one. I tried the artificer, seems a bit to clunky and not graceful looking as my stylish rangers.


So two quick questions, one I think I know the answer to.

1: Which has the better healing, human or Halfling?
2: Is trapmonkey the best way to go, and just flavor tempest with either AA or DWS to taste?

I really found I missed cleave and seems slow to fit it in with the Halfling, though if I built the Trapmonkey, it looks doable. I like a minimum of futzing about while playing, so if I stick with ranger, what is my simplest play form? Getting old, and instead of maximizing a ton of hot bars, I usually just stare at them dumbfounded as mobs kill me while I search for the magic button I wanted. Later that is followed by screaming at the computer and then making an alt, because level 1 makes you feel very competent as a player!

Grailhawk
03-07-2014, 05:20 PM
1: Which has the better healing, human or Halfling?


Human because of the racial healing amp.



2: Is trapmonkey the best way to go, and just flavor tempest with either AA or DWS to taste?


Your original plan of 15/5 will work just as well as a 18/1/1 these days that one extra feat wont make or brake you and tempest has native hast boost.





I really found I missed cleave and seems slow to fit it in with the Halfling, though if I built the Trapmonkey, it looks doable. I like a minimum of futzing about while playing, so if I stick with ranger, what is my simplest play form? Getting old, and instead of maximizing a ton of hot bars, I usually just stare at them dumbfounded as mobs kill me while I search for the magic button I wanted. Later that is followed by screaming at the computer and then making an alt, because level 1 makes you feel very competent as a player!

Simplest play style on a Ranger is to just auto attack and keep the Cure button close at hand. Once you get the 4 arrows in many shot i would add that to the bar and use it every chance you get this is especially true in Epics when you can combined it with Fury.

FYI If you are planing to take Rogue levels you should take the first at level 1 this is especially true for a Ranger who gets enough skill points to keep Rogue silks up.

slayerkdm
03-07-2014, 09:41 PM
[QUOTE=Grailhawk;5274200]Human because of the racial healing amp.



The Halfling Dragonmark doesn't make up for the human healing?

Gizeh
03-07-2014, 10:48 PM
[...]

So two quick questions, one I think I know the answer to.

1: Which has the better healing, human or Halfling?
2: Is trapmonkey the best way to go, and just flavor tempest with either AA or DWS to taste?

[...]

1: IMO there's no fast and easy answer to this.

As human you can get up to 30% Healing Amplification, which affects all incoming healing regardlesss of its source - you'll get a bonus to HP regained from your own ranger cure spells, from potions, from cures/heals cast by others etc. Healing Amplification can also be found on items, but they are rare, especially below level 20, so for newish players going human or half elf is the easiest way to get this ability. (Also, healing amp from items stacks with human healing amp, so human characters would benefit from them too)

As halfling you can take the Dragonmark of Healing feat, which you can expand with enhancements. You can get up to 9 Cure Light Wounds, 6 Cure Serious Wounds and 4 Heals per rest; in addition you can take the Break Out the Leeches ability, which, among other things, lets you remove negative levels. Unlike regular spells, the Dragonmarks don't use SP, but, like spells, they are affected by metamagic feats and items which increase general spell power and healing spell power. (And of course they are affected by healing amplification as well)


2: I think this is a matter of personal taste. Last life I took a ranger life on my main character, and I went for a rogue 3/ranger 17 split - the two classes have good synergy, and ranger gets enough skill points to max trap skills and take some ranger skills as well. Of course my choice may have been influenced by the fact that the character started out as pure rogue and will eventually go pure rogue again :).

slayerkdm
03-08-2014, 01:43 PM
Well, after rereading and thinking, and playing (goodness, what a concept for me), I am going to stay with the pure Halfling ranger I built.

I am going to focus on the DWS and Tempest line, along with getting the Halfling healing.

In the DWS, for good or ill, I'm going to work up the FE tree, and then I'm not sure. Tempest I will do the standard stuff, and what was suggested earlier in post.

He is not the sharpest tool in the shed, so he doesn't get many skill points. Not particularly wise, so will need some items to boost that up.

Started with 14 str, and 18 dex. I am going to go all dex from here on in, using light weapons for the bonus. Presently sitting at 5, FE's are undead and giants.

As for arrows, what's my best option here? Do I add AA just for conuring? I am in Denieth now, and from what I have read, that gives me access to arrows, though I don't know how affordable always buying arrows is?

Anyway, thanks for previous input, and any additional help or tips you can think of.

slayerkdm
03-08-2014, 03:04 PM
Tinkering around in my inept fashion, I came up with something like this. I didn't flesh out the feats, just tried to see how the enhancements worked.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

para
Level 20 Chaotic Good Halfling Male
(20 Ranger)
Hit Points: 240
Spell Points: 260
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 22
Will: 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 14 14
Dexterity 18 22
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 10 10
Charisma 8 8

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 4 6
Bluff -1 -1
Concentration 6 6
Diplomacy -1 2
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -1 -1
Heal 4 9
Hide 8 14
Intimidate -1 -1
Jump 6 8
Listen 0 2
Move Silently 8 12
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1
Search -1 -1
Spellcraft -1 -1
Spot 0 0
Swim 2 2
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Healing


Level 2 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Far Shot (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Shield of Whirling Steel (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Reaction (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Whirling Blades (Rank 1)


Level 3 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Halfling - Halfling Luck (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Halfling - Jorasco Dragonmark Focus (Rank 1)


Level 4 (Ranger)


Level 5 (Ranger)


Level 6 (Ranger)


Level 7 (Ranger)


Level 8 (Ranger)


Level 9 (Ranger)


Level 10 (Ranger)


Level 11 (Ranger)


Level 12 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Halfling - Dexterity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Halfling - Jorasco Dragonmark Focus (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Halfling - Jorasco Dragonmark Focus (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Halfling - Lesser Dragonmark of Healing (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Sneak Attack (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Favored Resistance (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Favored Resistance (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Favored Resistance (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Increased Empathy (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Increased Empathy (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Empathic Healing (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Empathic Healing (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Favored Accuracy (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Tempest (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Reaction (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Reaction (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Whirling Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Haste Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Haste Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Haste Boost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Whirling Blades (Rank 1)


Level 13 (Ranger)


Level 14 (Ranger)


Level 15 (Ranger)


Level 16 (Ranger)


Level 17 (Ranger)


Level 18 (Ranger)


Level 19 (Ranger)


Level 20 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Halfling - Halfling Luck (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Halfling - Dexterity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Halfling - Halfling Luck (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Halfling - Greater Dragonmark of Healing (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Arcane Archer (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Conjure Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Energy of the Wild (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Energy of the Wild (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Force Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Sniper Shot (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Sneak Attack (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Mark of the Hunted (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Horizon Shot (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Increased Empathy (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Favored Accuracy (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Favored Accuracy (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Thrill of the Hunt (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Thrill of the Hunt (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Thrill of the Hunt (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Dexterity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Favored Damage (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Favored Damage (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Favored Damage (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Dexterity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Favored Enemy (Monstrous Humanoid ) (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Heavy Draw (Rank 1)

Fedora1
03-08-2014, 07:13 PM
As for arrows, what's my best option here? Do I add AA just for conuring? I am in Denieth now, and from what I have read, that gives me access to arrows, though I don't know how affordable always buying arrows is?

Didn't check out your build, but wanted to comment real quick on this.

Personally, I usually grab the required core ability for AA, so I can get acid imbue arrows. I don't bother with conjured arrows although I could see why some do.

House D has "Sturdy Arrows" and "+3 Sturdy Arrows" which have a 75% chance of returning, meaning a stack of 100 lasts a while. They are affordable. You can also get nice quivers (large thin; 3 stacks of 1000, and large wide; 10 stacks of 250). In addition to the returning (sturdy) arrows the House D vendor has the various cold iron, silver, byeshk, etc arrows, although they are not of the "returning" variety.

slayerkdm
03-08-2014, 08:14 PM
Thanks Fedora, that's good info.

I think I was looking at vendor in House D section as opposed to another person? I never saw those items, but maybe I don't have enough favor?

The acid worth a slot? Guess even if I didn't want it later I could dump out of it as I progress.

Fedora1
03-09-2014, 09:17 AM
Thanks Fedora, that's good info.

I think I was looking at vendor in House D section as opposed to another person? I never saw those items, but maybe I don't have enough favor?

The acid worth a slot? Guess even if I didn't want it later I could dump out of it as I progress.

Once you get Tier 1 favor with House D, a vendor up by the tower becomes available with the stuff I mentioned, except the +3 sturdy arrows and the large thin quiver require tier 2 favor.

I think the acid imbue arrows (or whatever elemental damage type you prefer) only cost 1 point in addition to the core, so 2 points for 1d6 extra damage per arrow. To me that's as good as any other investment if you plan on using ranged at all. Since rangers get STR bonus and rapid shot (and later, Manyshot) even if you just plan on using ranged weaponry to pull mobs I like it. Combined with a good bow it's even better, but unless you specialize and go all-out ranged your melee is always going to be better so it's really a matter of preference I guess.

slayerkdm
03-10-2014, 02:15 AM
Well, the plucky little Halfling keeps battling on. Level 6, and "many shot" really helps, though I can see I need some type of clicky attack.

I switched into AA to try it out, and though I wanted to like DWS better, so far AA has been more to my liking, a bigger impact at this level anyway it seems. I have for the most part given up melee, not that I think the archery is better, but I rather like the bow. I am thinking about making more a ranged build for the moment.

I did invest up to the last Dragonmark and find it really great for soloing. I cant imagine finishing "Proof is in the Poison" without it. I didn't realize that while you only get a couple early spell slots, the spells are not single cast, so I can see him being pretty self sufficient with a couple more heals.

Fedora1
03-10-2014, 06:14 AM
Yep rangers are fun, one of my favorites. I have two of them in epics right now, one capped at L28 the other just starting his epic journey and hit L21 yesterday.

The sad part about rangers, or rather tempests, is the tier 4-5 enhancements are underwhelming. They need to lengthen the time they run and shorten the cooldown. The top tiers of DWS and AA are nice though. So niether of my rangers are pure, one (the L28) has a splash of L2 fighter and the L21 is 16/2/2 ranger/fighter/rogue. I may redo enhancements and see how it goes using ranged combat as primary instead of secondary.

If you haven't already taken it, grab empower healing for your next feat. That will significantly boost your DM heals for free, and will really help your cure spells (especially when you get CSW).

MangLord
03-19-2014, 04:45 AM
Back when the cap was 25, my first character to reach that mark was a halfling ranger/rogue arcane archer. I didn't have much trouble getting from 1-20, and he was surprisingly good at soloing EH content in shiradi destiny.

Based on the new enhancement trees, the build looks a little less attractive than it used to, and I TRed into a pure elven arcane archer, with the intention of doing well at end game. I have to say that race/class combination was made for each other, obviously, and I'm having fun playing such a classic character. No problem soloing heroic elites so far. Paralyzing arrows are a lifesaver. It was much tougher with the old enhancements. That being said, undead and construct quests are a bit trickier now that they nerfed paralyzing arrows a bit. I'm relearning how to kite. LOL.

Sneak attack damage is really nice, but like pets and hirelings, its not something you should rely on. For that reason, I tend to focus on reliable, concrete damage/crit boosts from stats, gear and feats. If I can add a couple d6 worth of sneak damage, cool. Whenever I've built an assassin, I've found the enemies gravitating towards me even when there's a paladin intimidating and they're standing in a wizards wall of fire. There's something in the game mechanics that makes monsters favor casters and rogues as targets, the same way we do.

Personally, I looked over the Deepwood tree and was a little wary. There's a few nice things in the tree, but overall it's grossly underwhelming for the way DDO is set up, at least in comparison with AA and Tempest. It looks good on paper, but when you have a handful of ogres breathing down your neck, sneak attack dice don't mean much. Same with rogue. Once you get a couple hits in, you will grab aggro whether you like it or not. The sniper autocrit ability would be nice to have with slayer arrows, as a guaranteed kill on a caster when you're in big trouble on heroics, but you can't take both.

I'd recommend spending a couple AP to get AA conjured arrows, at least. It saves you a lot of trouble visiting vendors constantly. To me, the convenience is well worth it. If you're going to open up AA tree for acid arrows, you may as well spend the point on conjured arrows.

The way that I play my ranger is to put two weapon sets on 1 and 2 of my main active hotbar. That way, I can switch out weapon sets in the middle of battle without taking my eyes off the action. For a lower level ranger, this is especially important, as you can instantly switch over to melee weapons as the enemy is closing in on you. Given how focused my current build is on archery, I just have two different bows, since my ranged damage exceeds my melee output, but the premise remains the same. One bow is specialized for the main enemy type of the quest, like a disruption bow, and another is a more generalized option, like a shrieking bow of heartseeking. Not a big revelation, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

I understand the desire to build what you want, definitely. If you like making lots of characters, try out an elven AA and see what you think. Paralyzing every monster on screen is surprisingly satisfying. In general, I find that going whole hog into one specialty makes you a much more valuable asset to a party, as opposed to spreading points around. If your plan is to solo, then you definitely need a more generalized build. The first time I got into epic gianthold with my halfling ranger/rogue, I started thinking about dumping rogue levels and making the most focused archer possible. Epic is an entirely different beast than levels 1-20, so it's up to you as to how far you plan to take your build. I had a good time with my halfling trapper/archer on the way to 20, so I expect you will, too.

MangLord
03-19-2014, 04:49 AM
If you haven't already taken it, grab empower healing for your next feat. That will significantly boost your DM heals for free, and will really help your cure spells (especially when you get CSW).

Cosigned. Particularly if you plan to run epic quests, empower heal and quicken feats are must have. Realistically, if you have healing abilities, empower healing is one of the most valuable feats you can take. You get a significant boost for only an extra 10sp.

slayerkdm
03-19-2014, 05:25 PM
Does empower work with the Halfling Dragonmark healing?

I have tried so many iterations of my Halfling at this point. My latest one was a Halfling starting with 1 level of Artificer to use the repeater. At low levels, which is all I have experienced, it is so much stronger than the bow. Most of the DWS stuff seems to work with repeaters.

Im also thinking a STR based Halfling (ya I know) as I like the early healing of the Dragonmark, and the damage from Bow Strength is appealing. Im wondering 1-20, if an Bow Ranger can catch up to a Repeater ranger in damage.

Does Bow Strength, surpase three bolts?

MangLord
03-19-2014, 06:03 PM
My pure dex based AA ranger hits for far more damage than my pure intel based Battle Engineer Artificer. (Not taking into account the rune arm, just talking about the bows.) By the time you get to level 20, I'd say the amount of ammunition going downrange per minute is about the same. I don't have hard numbers, but the repeater seems to reload at the same speed it did when I took rapid reload feat, while archery seems to get faster. If you have a Pinion bow, the amount of arrows you can fire per minute dramatically increases and leaves a repeater in the dust. There's also a lot more really nice named longbows than there are repeating weapons, and repeaters require you to actually reload the weapon. I sometimes forget and I'll be forced to reload while an enemy is closing in on me.

Long story short, I feel like bows have more ways to win in the long term. Repeaters are strong at lower levels, but start to fall off as you approach level 16.

slayerkdm
03-19-2014, 06:09 PM
So you are playing a pure ranger now? Do you miss the rogue levels? (for opening lock and disable device?)

Solo I like them, but when Im grouped, which usually means playing elite, I don't seem to actually have enough skill in them, without trapper gear to really make it worth while.

I do want to stay Halfling, so wondering if pure dex is good in the long run. As an elf, you get to add dex to damage, but no such option for the bow and Halfling. That's why was thinking of rerolling a more str based Halfling.

MangLord
03-20-2014, 12:19 PM
I'm pretty familiar with most quests, so I've grown to accept missing a locked chest or two. It doesn't bother me much anymore. A True Seeing item will automatically find secret doors for you reliably until level 16 or so. I've gotten used to drinking a heroism and haste pot and casting protection from energy to get through most traps. Blade and spike traps are a little more tricky, but a high reflex save and jump skill will allow your evasion to mitigate most of the damage.

Heroic elite is pretty unforgiving to undergeared rogues. Even with good stats and skills, you absolutely need to have +13 or better gear past level 11. Crafting is the best way to ensure you always have a +13 set of trapping goggles. Aside from that, random loot with half decent trapping boosts seem to be exceedingly rare, and you'll be looking to farm named items. The Crystal Cove event has a terrific trinket for trappers called the Treasure Hunters' Spyglass. I believe it should be coming back soon.

Halfling will never be as good at archery as an elf, but their racial tree has some nice bonuses. The save boosts are helpful, as are the dragonmarks. Halflings do very well as rogues and clerics. I've seen a couple halfling paladins, too. Each race has a preference, and I've learned to swim with the current, because the DM will offer you no concessions like they might in a tabletop game. Personally, I like to play highly specialized characters now, but I did enjoy trapping abilites for soloing. There's so many ways to assist in mitigating trap damage that I'd rather not spread myself thin on the way to building a strong character for epic levels.

If you're planning on building a STR based halfling, you're definitely fighting an uphill battle, but why not? The game is about making something fun and cool that you like. I could roll up a monkcher or toaster powertoon to make epic levels even easier, but I want to play a pure ranger that sticks to the spirit of the game and might not die 20 times in an EE quest. My only concern for you is that if you plan on playing epic content, many epic warrior feats require a very high base STR or CON, such as epic toughness or overwhelming critical. You need an 18 with a +3 tome or better. Topping out at a 16 STR will make all of those epic feats unavailable to you.

All of this you will learn as you play the character to 20. Then you can TR, gain a special feat and more stat points, and adjust what didn't work for you last time.