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View Full Version : Rapier Vs Kukri/Dagger



TheBlueFox
02-26-2014, 11:24 AM
So, my old rogue is a dual rapier user, and I absolutely love it. There were so many GOOD Rapiers for rogues, and the ones you could craft were pretty good too like the elemental rapier of air. But now I see with the new assassin tree there's some decent things to be had with Kukris and daggers...

First off, utilizing dual rapiers requires Weapon Finesse and Oversized TWF, 2 feats. Using Dual Kukris or daggers does not. You no longer need weapon finesse to use your dexterity for both attack AND damage with them.

A rapier does 1d6 to a Kukri and daggers 1d4? I can't check right now but I believe thats so, and it has a 18-20 crit range. With the assassin trees a Kukri and dagger will share that, but where a Rapier has a x2 crit the kukri and dagger will have x3 and +1 damage before crits?

Still, a good 80-90% of a rogue's damage is sneak attack, something that won't change with weapon choices.

So, with the freedom of 2 feats, what would I take in their place I wonder...

Are there even any good legendary Daggers or Kukris? To be honest I've not even checked, I do remember ONE really good Kukri that added int to damage and I think increased the DC of assassinate a while back.

Are Daggers/Kukris viable

Trillea
02-26-2014, 11:39 AM
So, my old rogue is a dual rapier user, and I absolutely love it. There were so many GOOD Rapiers for rogues, and the ones you could craft were pretty good too like the elemental rapier of air. But now I see with the new assassin tree there's some decent things to be had with Kukris and daggers...

First off, utilizing dual rapiers requires Weapon Finesse and Oversized TWF, 2 feats. Using Dual Kukris or daggers does not. You no longer need weapon finesse to use your dexterity for both attack AND damage with them.

A rapier does 1d6 to a Kukri and daggers 1d4? I can't check right now but I believe thats so, and it has a 18-20 crit range. With the assassin trees a Kukri and dagger will share that, but where a Rapier has a x2 crit the kukri and dagger will have x3 and +1 damage before crits?

Still, a good 80-90% of a rogue's damage is sneak attack, something that won't change with weapon choices.

So, with the freedom of 2 feats, what would I take in their place I wonder...

Are there even any good legendary Daggers or Kukris? To be honest I've not even checked, I do remember ONE really good Kukri that added int to damage and I think increased the DC of assassinate a while back.

Are Daggers/Kukris viable

Yes, they are absolutely viable. The kukri you are thinking of is the Epic Midnight Greetings. (http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Midnight_Greetings)

As for other daggers, some good ones are:
Sacrificial Dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sacrificial_Dagger)
Agony, the Knife in the Dark (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Agony,_the_Knife_in_the_Dark)
Fell Shiv (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Fell_Shiv_(Level_27))
Blade of the High Priestess (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Blade_of_the_High_Priestess)

Kukris:
besides the Midnight Greetings, nothing really worth mentioning at epic levels.

TheBlueFox
02-26-2014, 12:02 PM
Hmm, I wonder if I should switch then... Or not.

See, I already have rapier sets for Smiters, Disruptors, Alignment breakers, DR breakers, and of course my DPS sets. Not, really the best stuff, its a greensteel radiance and an elemental rapier of air max upgraded. Still its pretty freakin good. (though I think I swapped the greensteel out for something else... can't remember I'll check later)

To get all that in kukri/Dagger form could take a while...But it DOES free up feats, and I'd dare say Kuk/Dag is probably less expensive on the Auction house

rimble
02-26-2014, 12:39 PM
To get all that in kukri/Dagger form could take a while...But it DOES free up feats, and I'd dare say Kuk/Dag is probably less expensive on the Auction house

If freeing up Feats is your goal, you don't need OTWF, so you can already consider what to do with that Feat without having to stop using Rapiers.

unbongwah
02-26-2014, 12:51 PM
If it makes you feel better about sticking with rapiers, Balizarde (http://ddowiki.com/page/Balizarde,_Protector_of_the_King) is still the single best 1H weapon. A pair of Balizardes or Balizarde+Agony would be a nice combo; and since they're both keen, you could drop IC:Pierce once you had them (presuming you used no other weapons in epics).

TheBlueFox
02-26-2014, 12:54 PM
Im just trying to weigh my options.

It would free up 2 feats, granted one of them is weapon finesse, so what I could swap that out for is limited by the fact I took it at level 3 so its gotta be something like... skill focus UMD? something useful but something I don't already have...power attack? Maybe.

I like OTWF for its negation of penalties, +hit is pretty important with the high ac mobs. I do enjoy stabbing things and landing hits. I can't remember if I hit on a 2 for epic content.

Linvak
02-26-2014, 02:29 PM
Im just trying to weigh my options.

It would free up 2 feats, granted one of them is weapon finesse, so what I could swap that out for is limited by the fact I took it at level 3 so its gotta be something like... skill focus UMD? something useful but something I don't already have...power attack? Maybe.

I like OTWF for its negation of penalties, +hit is pretty important with the high ac mobs. I do enjoy stabbing things and landing hits. I can't remember if I hit on a 2 for epic content.

I just tr'd my rogue for the 4th time and he's almost 22 after about a month. I dual rad 2 rapiers without oversized and never had trouble hitting. I just did some epics last night and the hitting was just fine. You get so many bonuses to hit when getting sa.

I would suggest dumping oversized but holding onto wf until ur doing epics and get your gear. And even then I don't know if I'd give it up. There are some nice epic short swords aswell.

CThruTheEgo
02-28-2014, 09:07 AM
If it makes you feel better about sticking with rapiers, Balizarde (http://ddowiki.com/page/Balizarde,_Protector_of_the_King) is still the single best 1H weapon.

For an assassin with knife specialization, Agony pulls ahead of Balizarde. It ends up with the same crit profile but has higher base damage as well as more damage procs. But since the vast majority of a an assassin's dps comes from sneak attacks, the difference will be a small percentage. Assassin's can fight with a wet noodle and still be lethal.

@OP: If you're looking to maximize your dps, then you will want to make the switch to daggers/kukris. Agony + Epic Midnight Greetings (EMG) is currently the ideal combo. With the new raids we will be getting a necklace that provides +4 to assassinate DC, which will negate the greatest benefit of EMG since it is actually a poor dps choice in comparison to other options. With the necklace, dual Agonies will be the optimal choice.

Linvak
02-28-2014, 10:25 AM
And don't be a noob like me and not grab the agonies out of the raider's box. It's gonna be hard to get 2 of them now :/

TheBlueFox
02-28-2014, 12:44 PM
I recently checked my inventory and found that I've got TWO raiders boxes in there. I think I can get dual agonies... I just need to level up once (Currently level 22)

Im currently farming for the epic midnight greetings, i'd like to at least use that in my offhand until I get something better. I was planning on getting the balizarde and EMG, but agony is better? I might have to re-lookup that weapon.

I've also got 2 hearts of wood in my inventory (+0 and +20) so I think I'll get rid of Oversided TWF from my dual rapier days and replace it with something. I will probably keep weapon finesse though, since I have disruption, smiting, and other good rapiers and shortswords.

Is there a feat I should swap to? I mean, another toughness couldn't hurt, right?

unbongwah
02-28-2014, 01:28 PM
If you've got two raider's boxes, I'd also consider Balizarde+Agony for the static bonuses on Bali; all depends on the rest of your gear, though.

TheBlueFox
02-28-2014, 03:01 PM
I WOULD go Bali+agony, but I don't have the gear to really warrant an AC bonus or much of a dodge bonus. I really focus on not being the center of attention and concealment + blind. I've got the epic ring of the buccaneer and the cloak of night (I think?) so I have the luck and a bit of the dodge already.

I'm going to be working on my gear next, I've been pretty much using a hodgepodge of GOOD but not GREAT gear. Like the boots of propulsion, epic ring of bucc, epic Utility Vest, Tharne's Goggles+bracers, and the like.

Linvak
02-28-2014, 03:41 PM
I don't think ur gonna lose much no matter which combo u pick. Like ego said, 90% of ur dmg is sneak attack. And all of these weapon are in the raid. But if I was u I'd get 2 agonies because of the dmg/procs and I like the look of matched weapons.

CThruTheEgo
02-28-2014, 05:56 PM
I was planning on getting the balizarde and EMG, but agony is better? I might have to re-lookup that weapon.

Agony is better specifically for a rogue with knife specialization. Without that enhancement, Balizarde is the better option.


I'm going to be working on my gear next, I've been pretty much using a hodgepodge of GOOD but not GREAT gear. Like the boots of propulsion, epic ring of bucc, epic Utility Vest, Tharne's Goggles+bracers, and the like.

Check out Hassan's Assassin in my sig for a gear list if you're looking for suggestions.

Nightmanis
03-01-2014, 03:53 PM
I WOULD go Bali+agony, but I don't have the gear to really warrant an AC bonus or much of a dodge bonus. I really focus on not being the center of attention and concealment + blind. I've got the epic ring of the buccaneer and the cloak of night (I think?) so I have the luck and a bit of the dodge already.

I'm going to be working on my gear next, I've been pretty much using a hodgepodge of GOOD but not GREAT gear. Like the boots of propulsion, epic ring of bucc, epic Utility Vest, Tharne's Goggles+bracers, and the like.

Just go with the Agonies. Eventually you can make a Thunderforged dagger to use in the offhand, and just keep going for that monster amount of damage.