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View Full Version : How much STR does a Monk REALLY need?



Requimatic
02-26-2014, 11:31 AM
See title.

How much is enough? The only feat with a STR requirement a Monk could be interested in getting is Overwhelming Critical, which also requires three feats; one of which you'd be getting anyway (Imp Crit: Bludgeon) if you stick with wraps. To top that off, you also want to pump WIS for your DCs (QP, SF, Jade Strike line should you take them, Dismissing Strike..). So how much STR is really necessary?

My Monk had been built with STR in mind back in '09. I'd taken Stunning Blow over Stunning Fist, since I figured it would have a better DC. However, currently, even with as much STR as my Monk has unbuffed, the DC on Stunning Fist is slightly higher. Odd, but it is what it is.

Essentially I plan to TR the Monk and play through it again, because it's extremely fun and I enjoy the class. However the second go around, I'd planned on abandoning a pure STR build and pumping WIS for said ability DCs. I know now that a lot of a Monk's melee damage comes from targets being helpless, which is where WIS and SF comes in to play. However, at the same time, I don't want to abandon all STR and leave said damage, even with good DCs, lower than it could have been.

Unbuffed, and unstanced, my Monk's stats are the following (L19):

Half-Orc
STR: 32 (base 22, +2 tome, +2 H-Orc enhancements, +6 item)
DEX: 25 (base 16, +2 tome, +1 Ninja-Spy enhancement (should be WIS), +6 item)
CON: 24 (base 16, +2 tome, +6 item)
WIS: 21 (base 10, +3 tome, +2 Shintao enhancements, +6 item)

Whenever I was going to TR, I'd planned on going Human. Admittedly the Half-Orc racials aren't that great for a Monk. +3 to Power Attack is useful, I guess, but I can see it being a problem in epic levels with a -8 to hit, so I'd be okay losing that. The +3 Will saves are nice. The bonus STR when damaged is okay, but honestly I shouldn't be staying damaged, so those lose value highly.

As Human, I could get a damage action boost and +1 WIS with just 3 AP. If I had spare AP to spend, I could get more goodies, but I doubt I'd have much to spare if I go for the +2 WIS I can get form the Ninja-Spy tree.. which I should be doing. Since I have a +2 tome for DEX, I could get away with a base of 15 for the TWF feats and have 17 by the time I needed to grab ITWF and GTWF. A +3 or greater would be even better, but that would delay getting one of the TWF feats by a few levels at least, I believe.

With what I currently have, I don't think I could pull off a build that had a high enough WIS for DCs, and the ability to get Overwhelming Critical. With that, I think I should focus on just pumping WIS, and eventually getting Improved Martial Arts, Vorpal Strikes, and something else. Not sure what yet, as I've not loaded this up in the generator to see what I'd be capable of obtaining.

But this brings me back to my initial question: how much STR is necessary? If I go in knowing I won't be able to get OvC, then I could afford to neglect STR a little. I could also just forgo Power Attack entirely and instead get Precision, which would give a much higher hit chance, and -25% enemy fortification.

What does everyone think? Monks only seem to get +1 to damage rolls for every 2 STR, so neglecting mine a bit wouldn't seem to hurt that much given I'd have a much higher DC on everything, and potentially doing more damage on criticals in general with Precision.

Edit: on a semi-related note, how much Concentration is also necessary? I believe I've upped mine every level, sitting at 48 with some random mods from items. Obviously the more banked Ki the better, but there's likely a break-point of some kind where I should dump points in to something else. I've admittedly neglected my Monk's Jump skill a little more than I'd have liked to.. hah.

str8nger
02-26-2014, 12:02 PM
My opinion only of course...but max WIS first...then give yourself enough DEX for the TWF feats taking into account your tomes as well..then spread it out with CON and STR. My Legend Monk is Drow, does have +5 tomes across the board though, and she sits at the stats below unbuffed at lvl 28.

30 STR
32 DEX
34 CON
16 INT
50 WIS
16 CHA

i know i only started with a 13 str and took no power attack, but rather went with Resilience and the dodge line with deflect arrows. My dmg numbers make me happy with only a 30 STR...i do not feel like i miss anything by having a low STR.

my SF DC is 70 unbuffed...stuns almost everything. then my dmg is huge.

second life, i would say going human...start with no more than 12 if you decide to avoide the PA line...then try a few points in INT to stop neglecting your jump lol.

for whatever its worth...

Requimatic
02-26-2014, 12:49 PM
My opinion only of course...but max WIS first...then give yourself enough DEX for the TWF feats taking into account your tomes as well..then spread it out with CON and STR. My Legend Monk is Drow, does have +5 tomes across the board though, and she sits at the stats below unbuffed at lvl 28.

30 STR
32 DEX
34 CON
16 INT
50 WIS
16 CHA

i know i only started with a 13 str and took no power attack, but rather went with Resilience and the dodge line with deflect arrows. My dmg numbers make me happy with only a 30 STR...i do not feel like i miss anything by having a low STR.

my SF DC is 70 unbuffed...stuns almost everything. then my dmg is huge.

second life, i would say going human...start with no more than 12 if you decide to avoide the PA line...then try a few points in INT to stop neglecting your jump lol.

for whatever its worth...

I'd never thought about Resilience before. I can see it being a very viable option, though.. +4 saves is nothing to laugh at. In regards to Precision.. I know how useful that is for Rogues, since fortification nullifies Sneak Attack damage, but I'm not sure it's anywhere near as useful for Monks, whose damage doesn't consist of SA primarily.

str8nger
02-26-2014, 01:09 PM
I'd never thought about Resilience before. I can see it being a very viable option, though.. +4 saves is nothing to laugh at. In regards to Precision.. I know how useful that is for Rogues, since fortification nullifies Sneak Attack damage, but I'm not sure it's anywhere near as useful for Monks, whose damage doesn't consist of SA primarily.

just know there is a requirement for Resilience also...i think its 13 CON...and I get some SA damage from taking points in ninja spy...when helpless i can crit around 400-800 depending on whats going on...i personally no longer take Precision but always take Resilience now...plus its a defensive stance if you ever decide on bulwark of defense or multi with anything else that uses defensive stance bonuses...

Munkenmo
02-26-2014, 02:07 PM
Stat priorities on a monk
first 17dex to qualify for g twf.
second maximum wisdom.
third 23str for overwhelming critical.
fourth, if you can achieve these with tomes, put left over points into constitution.

My monk this life is a bladeforged (you can find it by googling munkenmo woodfist)
the initial stats look like this.

17str + 5 tome + 1 level
12dex + 5 tome
11 con +5 tome
8 int + 5 tome
16 wis + 5tome + 6 levels
8 cha + 5 tome

The 12dex +5 tome only works because I've splashed 2 fighter levels, any pure monk would need atleast 13dex with a +4 tome to reasonably pick up itwf and gtwf.

I'm not a big fan of pushing for saves on monks, they've got improved evasion and a good save progression anyway.

My str is a lot lower than a more standardized str based blitz or fury build, in quest with standard gear and buffs I'm still running about with a strength in the mid 40's. The thing is that EIN and QP are what you bring to parties in this day and age, if people want dps, a monk comes in a long way behind a blitzer of furyshotter.

EllisDee37
02-26-2014, 02:35 PM
The only feat with a STR requirement a Monk could be interested in getting is Overwhelming Critical, which also requires three feats; one of which you'd be getting anyway (Imp Crit: Bludgeon) if you stick with wraps.Cleave and Great Cleave are both awesome for unarmed monks.

Requimatic
02-26-2014, 05:01 PM
Stat priorities on a monk
first 17dex to qualify for g twf.
second maximum wisdom.
third 23str for overwhelming critical.
fourth, if you can achieve these with tomes, put left over points into constitution.

My monk this life is a bladeforged (you can find it by googling munkenmo woodfist)
the initial stats look like this.

17str + 5 tome + 1 level
12dex + 5 tome
11 con +5 tome
8 int + 5 tome
16 wis + 5tome + 6 levels
8 cha + 5 tome

The 12dex +5 tome only works because I've splashed 2 fighter levels, any pure monk would need atleast 13dex with a +4 tome to reasonably pick up itwf and gtwf.

I'm not a big fan of pushing for saves on monks, they've got improved evasion and a good save progression anyway.

My str is a lot lower than a more standardized str based blitz or fury build, in quest with standard gear and buffs I'm still running about with a strength in the mid 40's. The thing is that EIN and QP are what you bring to parties in this day and age, if people want dps, a monk comes in a long way behind a blitzer of furyshotter.

True enough about saves. There's also GM Ocean Stance, which provides quite a boost. I think my Monk is sitting at 40/43/40 in Ocean Stance without spectacular equipment. Don't quote me on that, though. But Epic Destinies (and twists) are totally new to me. I've looked over them, and as a Monk figured I'd probably go for Grandmaster of Flowers first for obvious reasons. But it'll be a long time before I get to that point.

I'm also very restricted tome-wise at the moment. Hopefully on my way to 20 (and beyond) I'll get lucky and roll some more +3s, and +4s for the ones I've already +3'd. Here's to hoping. Even with a TR (34 points), I'm kind of limited at recreation. :/


Cleave and Great Cleave are both awesome for unarmed monks.

I've heard this multiple times, but have yet to try it out. Admittedly I never even used Cleave on my Fighter back in '09, just my Barb.. and I rarely used it then because things died so quickly it rarely mattered. But now that it's required for OvC.. I can see myself eventually committing to getting and using them. But until I'm full up on +5 tomes (or at least in STR/DEX/WIS, with at least a +4 in CON hopefully), I won't be able to manage a build like that.

Honestly, even a pumped WIS build is going to be sub-par with what I have. I think what I came up with in the character generator only ended up with an unbuffed WIS of 32, not counting destinies or equipment.

quickgrif
03-02-2014, 11:56 AM
My opinion only of course...but max WIS first...then give yourself enough DEX for the TWF feats taking into account your tomes as well..then spread it out with CON and STR. My Legend Monk is Drow, does have +5 tomes across the board though, and she sits at the stats below unbuffed at lvl 28.

30 STR
32 DEX
34 CON
16 INT
50 WIS
16 CHA

i know i only started with a 13 str and took no power attack, but rather went with Resilience and the dodge line with deflect arrows. My dmg numbers make me happy with only a 30 STR...i do not feel like i miss anything by having a low STR.

my SF DC is 70 unbuffed...stuns almost everything. then my dmg is huge.

second life, i would say going human...start with no more than 12 if you decide to avoide the PA line...then try a few points in INT to stop neglecting your jump lol.

for whatever its worth...

Just out of curiosity can you give me a break down of your current stats. Been gone from the game too long and would like to know how you get your current stats.

Requimatic
03-03-2014, 06:09 AM
Just out of curiosity can you give me a break down of your current stats. Been gone from the game too long and would like to know how you get your current stats.

There are +5 tomes now, which account for a lot. SUPER expensive though. Other than that, it's race/class enhancements, items (+6 are common, but there's a lot more now with +7 and up, plus exceptional bonuses, which stack with enhancement bonuses and other exceptional bonuses of different values), and also.. the Epic feat line "Great [stat]" allows you to +1 any stat multiple times. I don't think any build uses those, though, due to the other epic feats being much, much better.

And to top that off, there's also Epic Destinies, which allow for even more. :)

str8nger
03-03-2014, 03:01 PM
Quickgrif - in response to your question- i do have +5 tomes across the board...I also have +8, +9 or +10 stat items with +1 exceptional and +2 insightful as well. I have boosted WIS on all lvl ups but one, i gave 1 to Con to even things out and i took +7 Wis with enhancements and epic destiny..i think it was 7...my starting stats are below...

Legend Drow...and this is off memory...so could be off one or two
14-Str
14-Dex
12-CON
nothing in Int
18-WIS
nothing in Cha

but again, i could be off one or two...hope that helps...sorry for the lack of detail.


after looking at it more, im almost positive those are wrong lol...i will look when i get home and put up the correct numbers just for accuracy sake..

quickgrif
03-03-2014, 05:45 PM
Quickgrif - in response to your question- i do have +5 tomes across the board...I also have +8, +9 or +10 stat items with +1 exceptional and +2 insightful as well. I have boosted WIS on all lvl ups but one, i gave 1 to Con to even things out and i took +7 Wis with enhancements and epic destiny..i think it was 7...my starting stats are below...

Legend Drow...and this is off memory...so could be off one or two
14-Str
14-Dex
12-CON
nothing in Int
18-WIS
nothing in Cha

but again, i could be off one or two...hope that helps...sorry for the lack of detail.


after looking at it more, im almost positive those are wrong lol...i will look when i get home and put up the correct numbers just for accuracy sake..

Thank you for the effort just trying to do my usual research to get up to speed on the game before logging in. (re dling the client now.) My mains current life is a half orc str build so trying to learn what has changed with monks now.

Dalsheel
03-19-2014, 05:00 AM
Thank you for the effort just trying to do my usual research to get up to speed on the game before logging in. (re dling the client now.) My mains current life is a half orc str build so trying to learn what has changed with monks now.

Monks have not changed in matters of being a melee DPS class. You still need STR.

Do yourself a favor and ignore the "put all level ups into wisdom" posts.

Monk is by far my favourite class in this game, I have played it a lot and have studied it even more. There is no need to pump wisdom any higher than the minimum required to qualify for Vorpal Strikes.

My monk's stats look like this (race is Half-Elf):

STR: 16 starting + 5 tome + 5 level ups
DEX: 14 starting + 5 tome
CON: 16 starting + 5 tome
INT: 8 starting + 5 tome
WIS: 16 starting + 5 tome + 2 level ups
CHA: 8 starting + 5 tome

I can still hit 50 wisdom with yugo pot and end game gear in Earth Stance, have no trouble stunning anything and I keep my red-named DPS to a more than decent level.

Adjust the numbers to your liking/needs, but overall keep your STR as high as possible because it is NOT a dump stat for any melee utilizing it for damage.


-Dal

Munkenmo
03-19-2014, 06:26 AM
Monks have not changed in matters of being a melee DPS class. You still need STR.

Do yourself a favor and ignore the "put all level ups into wisdom" posts.

It was fairly good advice for most monks before the Quivering Palm nerf, Provided they did reach 23str for Overwhelming crit.

Now I'd say the opposite is true.

Get 23wis for Vorpal Fists, put the remainder of your levels in str.

Dalsheel
03-19-2014, 06:45 AM
It was fairly good advice for most monks before the Quivering Palm nerf, Provided they did reach 23str for Overwhelming crit.

Now I'd say the opposite is true.

Get 23wis for Vorpal Fists, put the remainder of your levels in str.

This is exactly what I'm saying.

EDIT: If you're saying that putting all level ups in Wisdom before the QP nerf was a good idea, I disagree. It's never a good idea to cripple your red-named DPS on a melee toon.

moo_cow
03-19-2014, 01:02 PM
This is exactly what I'm saying.

EDIT: If you're saying that putting all level ups in Wisdom before the QP nerf was a good idea, I disagree. It's never a good idea to cripple your red-named DPS on a melee toon.

I don't think most people would put all level ups into wisdom, cause I agree that's a bad idea. I put the 2 level up points into str and the rest into wisdom to get OC. But not having that 5 strength barely hurts dps for the ability to insta kill everything in the game(at that time at least).

TeacherSyn
03-19-2014, 02:53 PM
Monks have not changed in matters of being a melee DPS class. You still need STR.

Do yourself a favor and ignore the "put all level ups into wisdom" posts.

Monk is by far my favourite class in this game, I have played it a lot and have studied it even more. There is no need to pump wisdom any higher than the minimum required to qualify for Vorpal Strikes.

My monk's stats look like this (race is Half-Elf):

STR: 16 starting + 5 tome + 5 level ups
DEX: 14 starting + 5 tome
CON: 16 starting + 5 tome
INT: 8 starting + 5 tome
WIS: 16 starting + 5 tome + 2 level ups
CHA: 8 starting + 5 tome

I can still hit 50 wisdom with yugo pot and end game gear in Earth Stance, have no trouble stunning anything and I keep my red-named DPS to a more than decent level.

Adjust the numbers to your liking/needs, but overall keep your STR as high as possible because it is NOT a dump stat for any melee utilizing it for damage.


-Dal

The sole exception to this, by design, is the armed Ninja Spy. While still a melee class, their training uses DEX exclusively for attack rolls and damage when using piercing/slashing weapons. When in unarmed mode, the same rules of STR for damage and DEX for to-hit apply to ninjas, too. Since oozes and rust monsters will eat your shortswords, everyone should have at least 12 STR, enough for some levers and for unarmed fighting.

fool101
03-19-2014, 03:25 PM
If a person can qualify for OC, wouldn't they be better off putting the rest into wis? It seems to me that 1-2 DC SF alone will mean more than 1-2 damage modifier. Although I will concede that I have not played the U21 content and my understanding is that SF will not do much for those mobs, so maybe that changes things.

Fallout_Zero
03-19-2014, 03:30 PM
If a person can qualify for OC, wouldn't they be better off putting the rest into wis? It seems to me that 1-2 DC SF alone will mean more than 1-2 damage modifier. Although I will concede that I have not played the U21 content and my understanding is that SF will not do much for those mobs, so maybe that changes things.

SF means nothing against red names and bosses. On high fort mobs like EE giants 70 isn't enough. So hope you have some decent dps.

moo_cow
03-19-2014, 05:10 PM
SF means nothing against red names and bosses. On high fort mobs like EE giants 70 isn't enough. So hope you have some decent dps.

That's why you get a 80 stunning fist dc instead

Zoda
03-22-2014, 11:40 PM
I don't think most people would put all level ups into wisdom, cause I agree that's a bad idea. I put the 2 level up points into str and the rest into wisdom to get OC. But not having that 5 strength barely hurts dps for the ability to insta kill everything in the game(at that time at least).

^That.^

Culver.Civello
03-23-2014, 12:04 AM
While Str is vital for a mellee DPS, if you rule out Monks Wisdom based stuff on the fact that it won't work with 'some' content, then you are missing out on a lot. DPS is great, specially for red names, ect. However, a nicely placed QP and SF is also very optimal, at least against most other content. I mean, if I wanted top DPS and max Str, I'd go for a Barbarian, or maybe a Fury shooting Ranger/Monkcher. A base strength enough to get OC, is more than enough to get a decently geared monk, the DPS he needs against those red-names. I've never had an issue. Sure, I could probably hit for slightly larger numbers if I maxed out strength a little more, but It just wouldn't be all that fun, and not even close to the DPS you can lay on trash with a nice SF. ^.^ Having played both kinds, they are both nice... but for me personally; Str, while important, isn't THAT important. I mean, whatever works for you, but I like a little in Strength then the rest in Wis. :)

Robbenklopper
03-29-2014, 05:52 AM
Hiya!

Like some others said before, STR is important for a frontliner. My 1st life Monk was a STR-based whirlwind fighter and did some nice damage. On 2nd life, I fell in love with the vorpal strikes and spread most to WIS. On my 3rd life now, i qualified for OC and VS.
Mainly running is Earth-Stance, unbuffed:

STR=38
DEX=28
CON=38
INT=16
WIS=48
CHA=16

I throw into fight with kukan from ranged, then preparing a shining star finisher on the way and hit. Next is QP, then SF and SB, and blast a drifting Lotus. First Blood does a painful start to all of them. So far not much STR required. mostly 1 Kill and 4 stunned damaged enemys PLUS a few other thrown to ground. Now you Need to Punch. By makeing your enemys helpless, you deal more damage, whether your STR is 38 or maybe just 30. Qualitified for OC gives you more Crits and higher DMG. I have a +10 Seeker and use Earth finishers. STR supports my fighting, but mainly it´s the mix of the Monks feats that Troubles the enemys. I can´t even compare in DMG with my friends 40 STR and his feats, but Overall with consequenst fast hard hits, every Monk can be dangerous. Main Stat is WIS to do all the Trouble, so i mainly threw my Attention on that. I wished to get my WIS on 50, but i needed to be balanced with CON for HP and STR for the RED names. With more STR, you can deal a bit faster, but they would even fall with a 30 STR. I´d say don´t be under 30 in STR or it´s gonna be a too hard fight vs. the rednamed. My QP after U21 is at 51 (>50%) and SF at 67 (>66%), so still good chances to Trouble a lot.

GMoneyMackDaddy
03-29-2014, 08:01 AM
3rd life 36pt build with +4 str and wis tomes (I believe, going from memory)

My lvl28 pure human light monk has OC, vorpal strikes, imp. Martial arts, perfect twf.

Usually run in LD destiny for blitz, can get str to 52 or 54 with mastone boots, but that nullifies cocoon, so lame, and wis is in the high 40s, think SF is around 61 and QP around 47, and I run LD destiny in earth stance.

Switch to GMOF, change some twists, run in water, SF at 72 QP at 52, and saves in high 50s.

Either way, took shintao to cap for max heal amp and kukando line, ninja spy enough for shadow veil, some SA, hensien for tortoise ( I think thats the one), and human for heal amp, FOL finisher 200+ with devotion slotted, cocoon when needed is nice too.

Blur 20%, (ring of shadows), incorpreality (10% perm from ring, Shadowveil for 25%, timed), dodge 26% in LD, 31% in GMOF

Can get PRR to 100+, with gear and switching to unbreakable in US destiny, (meh), but in LD or GMOF its only 50.

Still hits like a truck, greats saves and defense, self healing, stuns, instakills, almost never use shrine, cept to get clickies back.

Put enough into wisdom to get vorpal strikes first, and if you can get str high enough with tomes, go for OC

OC stacks with devistating critical from LD destiny too, which is nice

I use handwraps and ocassionally my thunderforged shuriken, and im not dissapointed at all with my damage numbers. Get a full stack of blitz, twist in sense weakness, stun and watch the numbers fly. (even unstunned, the skellies in thunderholme just melt. Backstabber gloves help :))

Love seeing the 3k crits too, on stunned helpless mobs.

Im sure their are better builds, with better tomes, but if you can swing OC, and vorpal strikes, go for it.

If not, id take vorpal strikes over OC.

Requimatic
04-03-2014, 10:45 PM
Hiya!

Like some others said before, STR is important for a frontliner. My 1st life Monk was a STR-based whirlwind fighter and did some nice damage. On 2nd life, I fell in love with the vorpal strikes and spread most to WIS. On my 3rd life now, i qualified for OC and VS.
Mainly running is Earth-Stance, unbuffed:

STR=38
DEX=28
CON=38
INT=16
WIS=48
CHA=16

I throw into fight with kukan from ranged, then preparing a shining star finisher on the way and hit. Next is QP, then SF and SB, and blast a drifting Lotus. First Blood does a painful start to all of them. So far not much STR required. mostly 1 Kill and 4 stunned damaged enemys PLUS a few other thrown to ground. Now you Need to Punch. By makeing your enemys helpless, you deal more damage, whether your STR is 38 or maybe just 30. Qualitified for OC gives you more Crits and higher DMG. I have a +10 Seeker and use Earth finishers. STR supports my fighting, but mainly it´s the mix of the Monks feats that Troubles the enemys. I can´t even compare in DMG with my friends 40 STR and his feats, but Overall with consequenst fast hard hits, every Monk can be dangerous. Main Stat is WIS to do all the Trouble, so i mainly threw my Attention on that. I wished to get my WIS on 50, but i needed to be balanced with CON for HP and STR for the RED names. With more STR, you can deal a bit faster, but they would even fall with a 30 STR. I´d say don´t be under 30 in STR or it´s gonna be a too hard fight vs. the rednamed. My QP after U21 is at 51 (>50%) and SF at 67 (>66%), so still good chances to Trouble a lot.

Woo, I'd forgotten about this thread shortly after starting it and playing my Monk more. Since then, I capped out heroic levels, got two epic levels and took Imp. Martial Arts. Then I farmed my 20 tokens and TRed. This life, I've pumped WIS (until L15), and I'm more than happy with how frequently SF lands. (Probably around 90% on everything I've been in on elite, after being able to use only a +6 Stunner. (Vamp SDW))

Thanks to the anniversary event, I've been able to eat +3 tomes across the board on three characters.. that helped immensely. However, even with that, and just on a second life, I'll be unable to qualify for both OC and VS with this build, unless I find at least a +4 WIS tome. Sadly, I don't think those go up on the AH very often on Thelanis.. and even if they do, they're probably more expensive than I can afford right now. Sadface.

I think this life I'll focus on a WIS build, get VS, and try to farm a +4 WIS tome. Theeeen.. TR again and make such a build work.

In any event, I'm still highly enjoying my Monk, and that's what matters most. However, I know it's not currently at its full potential, nor will it be at 20 (or even 28, this life), so I'm going to just continue on and hopefully get lucky enough to either find a +4 WIS tome (or other stats), or buy one, or whatever.

But thanks, everyone, for all the input, discussion, and insight. I really appreciate it. :)

Edit: nevermind about the stats question, my math is bad and I forget things like enhancements. :P

Arianka
04-04-2014, 12:48 AM
36-40 is good.

TheGuyYouKnow
04-04-2014, 01:22 AM
23 base for the +1 crit multiplier on 19-20
16 + 5 tome + 2 level
failing that,
13 base for power attack

Requimatic
04-04-2014, 01:25 AM
Now that I think about it, I see a lot of you saying you're running in Earth Stance. Why is this? For the +1 multiplier on top of what OC gives?

I typically see people claiming Wind Stance is king, due to the Double Strike + attack speed (which is negated by haste if you're using any other stance, or the perma-haste feat, should one take it). But is the loss of Double Strike worth the +1 multiplier? Are you able to, with gear, reach the same levels of Double Strike (I currently don't know what the cap on DS is, if there is one), essentially making Wind Stance obsolete?

I know PTWF grants 5% MH and 10% OH Double Strike, but that also requires something in the Primal Sphere; and being passive, can't be twisted.. as far as I know, anyway.

Daitengu
04-04-2014, 02:24 AM
Now that I think about it, I see a lot of you saying you're running in Earth Stance. Why is this? For the +1 multiplier on top of what OC gives?

I typically see people claiming Wind Stance is king, due to the Double Strike + attack speed (which is negated by haste if you're using any other stance, or the perma-haste feat, should one take it). But is the loss of Double Strike worth the +1 multiplier? Are you able to, with gear, reach the same levels of Double Strike (I currently don't know what the cap on DS is, if there is one), essentially making Wind Stance obsolete?Unfortunately earth stance is quite overpowered right now by giving loads of PRR, AC, Con and crit range via Shintao and Gmof. No other stance gets that many bonuses.

Requimatic
04-04-2014, 02:32 AM
Unfortunately earth stance is quite overpowered right now by giving loads of PRR, AC, Con and crit range via Shintao and Gmof. No other stance gets that many bonuses.

Yeah, I knew about all of that. I just wasn't aware if all of that was worth it in comparison to the Doublestrike, though.

Although, I guess in the new content, all of that survivability out-weighs some Doublestrike severely. Especially considering haste isn't exactly hard to come by. (clickies, pots, other means)

Robbenklopper
04-04-2014, 08:03 AM
Now that I think about it, I see a lot of you saying you're running in Earth Stance. Why is this? For the +1 multiplier on top of what OC gives?

Grandmaster of Rock: Mountain +4 Constitution, a 20% boost to AC, 15 physical resistance,, critical multiplier is increased by 1 on rolls of a natural 19 or 20, you gain 'Get Hit Effect: Gain 1 ki.'

Meditation of War: Toggle: Earth Stance: +10 Insight bonus to Physical Resistance and +3% Insight bonus to Maximum Hit Points.

Hej,

Earth is giving my Monk a viable ac/prr and hp while doing good damage, but especially coz i gain ki for my finishers! Water leaves me a bit more vulnerable and lacking of Ki, the passive +1 is not that great like "on hit" Fire is the same vulnerability like water although the damage is good and ki is raining cats and Dogs! :)

Earth is the better balanced in my eyes.

Snarglefrump
04-04-2014, 01:08 PM
In regards to Precision.. I know how useful that is for Rogues, since fortification nullifies Sneak Attack damage, but I'm not sure it's anywhere near as useful for Monks, whose damage doesn't consist of SA primarily.

Fortification also prevents critical hits. Precision can be useful even without sneak attack damage.

However, you shouldn't discount Sneak Attack damage on a monk, who are uniquely able to run up to a mob and make it susceptible to sneak attack (by stunning it). Sneak attack damage is the single easiest way to boost your damage against helpless mobs. Sneak Attack Training in the Ninja Spy tree try adds a d6 (+3.5 damage on average) to your Sneak Attack damage, each time you take it. A Sneak Attack Bonus (http://ddowiki.com/page/Sneak_Attack_Bonus) +5 item adds +8 damage per hit. An Insightful Sneak Attack Bonus +3 item adds another +5 damage per hit.

If you take, say, two ranks of Sneak Attack Training and have both kinds of Sneak Attack Bonus, that's 20 points of sneak attack damage per hit on average.

Snarglefrump
04-04-2014, 01:35 PM
I typically see people claiming Wind Stance is king, due to the Double Strike + attack speed (which is negated by haste if you're using any other stance, or the perma-haste feat, should one take it). But is the loss of Double Strike worth the +1 multiplier?
Earth Stance adds around 9% damage against mobs with no fortification. Wind Stance's doublestrike adds around 5% damage always. Wind Stance is better if you don't have Haste or you're fighting high-fortification mobs. Earth Stance is better if you do have Haste and you're fighting low-fortification mobs (or mobs whose fortification you can bypass).

Aside from damage, other factors to consider are:

Earth Stance's defensive bonuses are much, much better than Wind Stance.
Earth Stance increases threat generation dramatically, which could be good or bad depending on the circumstances.
Earth Stance decreases your run speed a bit.

They're both useful. Put them on a hot bar and switch as the situation warrants.

Are you able to, with gear, reach the same levels of Double Strike (I currently don't know what the cap on DS is, if there is one), essentially making Wind Stance obsolete?
Wind Stance's bonus to double strike stacks with everything. Nothing makes it obsolete.

There's no hard cap on doublestrike, but having more than 100% doublestrike serves no purpose. The game checks "do you get an extra hit?" and 100%, 110% and 120% will all answer the question the same way. In practice, you can't get to 100% doublestrike except briefly from the Shadow Double enhancement in the Ninja Spy tree.

Requimatic
04-04-2014, 02:08 PM
Earth Stance adds around 9% damage against mobs with no fortification. Wind Stance's doublestrike adds around 5% damage always. Wind Stance is better if you don't have Haste or you're fighting high-fortification mobs. Earth Stance is better if you do have Haste and you're fighting low-fortification mobs (or mobs whose fortification you can bypass).

Aside from damage, other factors to consider are:

Earth Stance's defensive bonuses are much, much better than Wind Stance.
Earth Stance increases threat generation dramatically, which could be good or bad depending on the circumstances.
Earth Stance decreases your run speed a bit.

They're both useful. Put them on a hot bar and switch as the situation warrants.

Wind Stance's bonus to double strike stacks with everything. Nothing makes it obsolete.

There's no hard cap on doublestrike, but having more than 100% doublestrike serves no purpose. The game checks "do you get an extra hit?" and 100%, 110% and 120% will all answer the question the same way. In practice, you can't get to 100% doublestrike except briefly from the Shadow Double enhancement in the Ninja Spy tree.

I have all four stances on a bar (with other stance-like abilities), and I do switch between them depending on the situation. However I'd typically only been using Earth if I ended up being the tank of the group, rather than for just pure damage purposes. With Overwhelming Critical (even more so if you're running LD), I can see Earth being superior in essentially every way, in almost all situations. Without either, I can see it being a situation where fortification would be the deciding factor.

As for Wind's Doublestrike.. I didn't realize it stacked with everything, so that's good to know. Also good to know there's no real cap on it, other than more than 100% would be useless. I don't have enough points in Ninja Spy for Shadow Double, so that doesn't really concern me much.. I only put enough points in it for 4? ranks of the SA training, Merciless, and a couple other filler abilities (Flash Bang!) that are marginally useful for avoidance. (against non-boss mobs only, though)

Fallout_Zero
04-04-2014, 05:09 PM
I mainly stay in Earth. Lose out on speed, but gain so much In defense.
Then just too lazy to switch stances.

Reading the discription for vorpal strikes doesn't seem to be that impressive. 100 on 20 and slashing. Thinking that or monk past life?

Requimatic
04-04-2014, 07:45 PM
I mainly stay in Earth. Lose out on speed, but gain so much In defense.
Then just too lazy to switch stances.

Reading the discription for vorpal strikes doesn't seem to be that impressive. 100 on 20 and slashing. Thinking that or monk past life?

Haha, well, as long as you're hasted, the movement speed loss is negligible. Not to mention you're probably still moving faster than others due to Monk class feats. Not sure there, though.

But, Vorpal Strikes.. yeah. I don't know how much use it would be in (some) EH content, and probably all EE content. Compared to something else (Imp. Martial Arts for example, or the past life feat), I'm not sure it's worth it at this point. However, this still leaves one wondering.. how much STR is really necessary? Obviously you still want SF, QP, and other Monk abilities to land. Is your WIS modifier going to be gimped if you pump your STR instead of putting some in to WIS?

Yeah, I know SF and others aren't going to work on bosses, and a lot of reds (especially new ones), but that doesn't mean one should ignore them, given their uses on non-boss NPCs.

But those, too; how useful are they in EE content? I know SF and QP probably lands frequently with 50-ish saves in EH, but what about EE?

Monks have too much to juggle. :/

Snarglefrump
04-05-2014, 12:35 AM
Reading the discription for vorpal strikes doesn't seem to be that impressive. 100 on 20 and slashing. Thinking that or monk past life?

But, Vorpal Strikes.. yeah. I don't know how much use it would be in (some) EH content, and probably all EE content. Compared to something else (Imp. Martial Arts for example, or the past life feat), I'm not sure it's worth it at this point.

Monk Past Life Feat: +1 step on the unarmed combat chart, which is 0.5[1d6], or +1.75 damage per hit on average.
Improved Martial Arts: +1[1d6], or +3.5 damage per hit on average.
Vorpal Strikes: +100 damage on a natural 20, or +5 damage per hit on average. Plus, it will sometimes instantly kill enemies once you get them under 1000 HP and breaks zombie DR.

The only drawback of Vorpal Strikes is that it requires 23 Wisdom, which may be hard to get for some builds.

Requimatic
04-05-2014, 03:12 AM
Monk Past Life Feat: +1 step on the unarmed combat chart, which is 0.5[1d6], or +1.75 damage per hit on average.
Improved Martial Arts: +1[1d6], or +3.5 damage per hit on average.
Vorpal Strikes: +100 damage on a natural 20, or +5 damage per hit on average. Plus, it will sometimes instantly kill enemies once you get them under 1000 HP and breaks zombie DR.

The only drawback of Vorpal Strikes is that it requires 23 Wisdom, which may be hard to get for some builds.

Taking both would mean 5.25 damage on average, without needing to rely on RNG for the Vorpal effect to happen.. which, by the time enemy health was low enough for it to be useful, if a caster is around, they're going to just nuke and be done. Probably well before the 1000 mark, considering how hard they can hit these days. But if you're soloing, then yeah, it'd be worth it.

Breaking zombie DR, though.. how relevant is that in current content? Seems that one could just as easily equip a pair of Disrupting kama and have at it while staying centered. I haven't been to anything in U21 though, so I can't speak for that content. :)

I dunno! I'd like to take both OC and VS, but apparently the margin of damage between say 36-40 STR is pretty massive on red named, somehow, despite it only accounting for 2 damage per strike (before multipliers, etc.). I could manage a build with both, but it'd require at least a +4 tome in either STR/WIS.

Bleh. The amount of stuff Monks (and Rogues, too, seemingly, for a competent Assassin/Trapper build) have to juggle to perform well is overwhelming when you're limited in the tome/funds department(s).

What it boils down to is: I want to take OC for the obvious massive increase in damage, but I don't want to destroy my Monk DCs in the process. :(

Munkenmo
04-05-2014, 04:20 AM
What it boils down to is: I want to take OC for the obvious massive increase in damage, but I don't want to destroy my Monk DCs in the process. :(

Dump Con.

You're going to be running around with improved evasion, 20+ dodge, add in earth stance which gives con and decent prr.
You could shed a point from dexterity and still qualify for all the twf feats.


I couldn't tell how many build points you had from the op, so assuming 32points + your tomes:

18base str+3 levels +2 tome = OC
15base dex+2 tome = feat pre reqs met
9con = good enough.
17base wisdom + 3tome + rest of levels.

Con is not the important stat it once was, my monk is a bladeforged with 11base con, at cap I'm sitting on over 900hp in gmof

Requimatic
04-05-2014, 05:32 AM
Dump Con.

You're going to be running around with improved evasion, 20+ dodge, add in earth stance which gives con and decent prr.
You could shed a point from dexterity and still qualify for all the twf feats.


I couldn't tell how many build points you had from the op, so assuming 32points + your tomes:

18base str+3 levels +2 tome = OC
15base dex+2 tome = feat pre reqs met
9con = good enough.
17base wisdom + 3tome + rest of levels.

Con is not the important stat it once was, my monk is a bladeforged with 11base con, at cap I'm sitting on over 900hp in gmof

Whoa, people are dumping CON these days? That's news to me. Before my Monk's TR, before it was even 20 (it was 18? at the time I believe), I had some angry Cleric message me after an E-Shroud run because I died to 5? blades spawning on top of the melee when all the devils were killed in one spot during P4, before Harry dropped. So I was under the assumption that CON was still pretty important. I guess no so much now compared to 2009, before the first expansion.

But a bit over 900HP is pretty respectable. That'd work fine for me. But since my OP, I managed to get +3 tomes across the board, and TRed once. With that.. if I dump CON a bit I could actually manage a build that had all three OC, VS, and IMA. From stats, I'd be at a -2 DC (-4 WIS; -2 at creation and -2 from levels being put in to STR intsead) on Monk DCs without counting gear or EDs at all.. which would even out if I took the Tactician ED feat.

I think I might give that a try. If not this life, on my next.. at which point I could put the +2 points from it in to CON.

Snarglefrump
04-05-2014, 03:55 PM
Taking both would mean 5.25 damage on average, without needing to rely on RNG for the Vorpal effect to happen.. which, by the time enemy health was low enough for it to be useful, if a caster is around, they're going to just nuke and be done. Probably well before the 1000 mark, considering how hard they can hit these days.

I think you misunderstand how vorpal works (alternately I misunderstand what you're trying to say, in which case I apologize). On a roll of 20, monsters with less than 1000 HP die instantly, but that's just the gravy. On a roll of 20, monsters with more HP take 100 damage instead; that's the meat and potatoes. You don't have to wait for the monster to have less than 1000 HP for Vorpal to have a useful eff

Requimatic
04-05-2014, 06:19 PM
I think you misunderstand how vorpal works (alternately I misunderstand what you're trying to say, in which case I apologize). On a roll of 20, monsters with less than 1000 HP die instantly, but that's just the gravy. On a roll of 20, monsters with more HP take 100 damage instead; that's the meat and potatoes. You don't have to wait for the monster to have less than 1000 HP for Vorpal to have a useful eff

Haha, no, I understand what you're saying; I know how Vorpal works. But its effects only activate on a roll of 20; the other two things are passive and work regardless of what you roll (unless you miss, of course). I'm just not a fan of (relying on..) RNG effects, really. I'm more in to passive effects that I can easily see a difference in, rather than "oh, that just happened. okay, next mob". Don't get me wrong, a passive Vorpal effect is nothing to laugh at considering the wraps I'd be using (Antipode, or something crafted perhaps), I just don't like the RNG involved is all.

However, I will admit that the Phantasmal Killer effect of the Traraak Wraps happens frequently. I believe I've actually noticed it activating from offhand and/or Doublestrikes, and I've had it, somehow, kill two targets at once, which is neat. And it can be negated by a save.. Vorpal cannot.

But with the advent of considering dropping CON to about 10 in my next life, I could get both Overwhelming Critical and Vorpal Strikes. If I had to pick between the two, though, I'd choose Overwhelming Critical and make the build work around it.

But now I'm curious.. as to how the person above is achieving a bit over 900 HP at L28, with GMoF active, with only 9 CON. My L16 Monk has 21 CON currently and wouldn't have anywhere near that with GMoF active, unless there's something I'm missing. I won't be able to stack Yugo pots either, considering my Monk never got to run ToD before I took a long break from the game. So assuming a Health +10 item (19), Earth Stance (23), ship buffs (25), probably exceptional bonuses in there somewhere (<=28).. I'm curious of how such a high number is happening. Unless Yugo pot stacking is exactly how it's happening.. which, if that's the case, makes me a little sad.. to have to rely on those pots to achieve certain thresholds. (This isn't taking in to account things like GFL, Vitality, etc.)

GMoneyMackDaddy
04-05-2014, 07:32 PM
You can still have a decent str and wis, properly planned and geared.

Standing 36, buffed 52 str, with 50 wis.

Took:

Monk PLF
Vorpal strikes
Improved martial arts
Overwhelming critical
Perfect two weapon fighting
Tactician
EPL feat doublestrike

Love playing him!

Ps. Oh yeah, dont dump con, thats just silly talk...I sit over 850+... I dont consider that too bad (think my con stands at 38, going from memory)

Munkenmo
04-05-2014, 08:17 PM
But now I'm curious.. as to how the person above is achieving a bit over 900 HP at L28, with GMoF active

I can actually hit 1k in GMOF with 11base con without going overboard on outside buffs:

Con
11 base
5 tome
10 item
2 completionist
3 earth stance
1 exceptional
3 insightful


Reasonable con buffs
2 guild
2 rage
Less reasonable con buffs
3 primal scream
2 bard song
2 yugo
4 madstone
2 alchemical
2 insight


54 Con

Hp:
616 Con
128 Monk
20 Fighter
8 Wiz
80 Epic levels
20 Heroic Durability
30 barb lives
33 primal lives
10 GH favor
20 Tortoise (henshin enhancment)
15 Conditioning (shintao enhancement)
15 EK toughness (ek enhancemnt)
50 false life
20 vitality
15 standing with stone (GMOF enhancement)

1080 Total HP at 28 in gmof, with 11base con. (i'm normally at 900ish, i do carry my madstone boots as the recon SLA works when madstoned)



Ps. Oh yeah, dont dump con, thats just silly talk
No it's not, see above.

GMoneyMackDaddy
04-05-2014, 08:31 PM
I can actually hit 1k in GMOF with 11base con without going overboard on outside buffs:

Con
11 base
5 tome
10 item
2 completionist
3 earth stance
1 exceptional
3 insightful


Reasonable con buffs
2 guild
2 rage
Less reasonable con buffs
3 primal scream
2 bard song
2 yugo
4 madstone
2 alchemical
2 insight


54 Con

Hp:
616 Con
128 Monk
20 Fighter
8 Wiz
20 Heroic Durability
30 barb lives
33 primal lives
10 GH favor
20 Tortoise (henshin enhancment)
15 Conditioning (shintao enhancement)
15 EK toughness (ek enhancemnt)
50 false life
20 vitality
15 standing with stone (GMOF enhancement)

1000 Total HP at 28 in gmof, with 11base con. (i'm normally at 900ish, i do carry my madstone boots as the recon SLA works when madstoned)


No it's not, see above.

Sure... if ya wanna go fighter, wiz, monk... with barb past lives and such..

My monk is pure human, therefore dumping con to 11 was not feasible, but nice layout buds... can be done.

Edit: can currently switch to sentinel now and think its vigor stance and top 1k hps, but sentinel is meh.

Munkenmo
04-05-2014, 08:50 PM
Sure... if ya wanna go fighter, wiz, monk... with barb past lives and such..

My monk is pure human, therefore dumping con to 11 was not feasible, but nice layout buds... can be done.

If I were pure it would only reduce my hp by 15 over my current setup.

The point wasn't to match my hp, it's that dumping con IS feasible.
I only gave my breakdown because the op asked how I reached it, anyone could hit 750hp in GMOF with dumped con these days, which on a character with improved evasion, earthstance and shadowfade is plenty.

Dalsheel
04-05-2014, 08:58 PM
I still enjoy starting with 15 or 16 CON, cause it allows to me skip False Life or Vitality or both on my gear, to make things easier :) Too many needs on a monk's gear these days.

Requimatic
04-05-2014, 09:53 PM
I can actually hit 1k in GMOF with 11base con without going overboard on outside buffs:

Con
11 base
5 tome
10 item
2 completionist
3 earth stance
1 exceptional
3 insightful


Reasonable con buffs
2 guild
2 rage
Less reasonable con buffs
3 primal scream
2 bard song
2 yugo
4 madstone
2 alchemical
2 insight


54 Con

Hp:
616 Con
128 Monk
20 Fighter
8 Wiz
20 Heroic Durability
30 barb lives
33 primal lives
10 GH favor
20 Tortoise (henshin enhancment)
15 Conditioning (shintao enhancement)
15 EK toughness (ek enhancemnt)
50 false life
20 vitality
15 standing with stone (GMOF enhancement)

1000 Total HP at 28 in gmof, with 11base con. (i'm normally at 900ish, i do carry my madstone boots as the recon SLA works when madstoned)


No it's not, see above.

Ah, okay, that makes sense now. I knew there'd be things I wasn't accounting for, like Barb/Primal/etc. past lives, haha. So realistically, with none of that (since this Monk is my first TR at all, and it's only on its second life), I could probably hit around.. 700-800, give or take some, mostly based on probability of me being able to obtain certain equipment, and augments to go with said equipment.

Thanks for the breakdown on that; like I said, I knew I was missing some things. I didn't even stop to think about things like past lives, heh.

relenttless
04-07-2014, 08:50 AM
Having paid anttention to this thread I just etr'd my human monk for the second time and re-jiggered her as a wis/Str build.

VAST improvement, she was ok before as a wis/dex build and did fine in ee content but her dps is already ( at level 22) better than it was at 28, and that is just using crappy grave wraps and lvl 16 knuckles. I'm intrigued to see what happens once I get ee adamantine and tier 2 thunder wraps out, even antipode should be good.

Went for a fairly standard
16 str +4 tome+ 3 lvl up (only + 5 tome out there was 1500 shards..........)
16 con +4 tome
14 dex + 4 tome
16 wis + 5 tome + 2 lvl up.

Pwr attack, cleave, great cleave, ,imp crit, imp 2wf, mob, dodge, spring attack, overwhelming crit

17 aps into human to get max amp,
41 aps into shintao for capstone,
Rest into ninja for sa and helpless

Twists: cocoon, ld tactics, and sense weakness.

The only thing I really miss at the moment is twisting the ld haste boost, but I'm pretty sure sense weakness is better overall.

Stun dc is still going to hit mid 70's,
QP dc will only be mid 50's but thats life, lets face it, it ain't what it once was.

My only uncertainty is whether to bother with vorpal strikes or to take blinding speed.
I'm not sure of the usefulNess of vorpal/s in higher level content, while the increased attack speed of bh is very nice and allows her to discard jordangals collar.
She has ee treads of falling shadow, but am leaning towards blinding speed at the moment.

Anyway, my thanks to those wise contributors in this thread.

Munkenmo
04-07-2014, 09:16 AM
Pwr attack, cleave, great cleave, ,imp crit, imp 2wf, mob, dodge, spring attack, overwhelming crit

1 dodge (M: power Attack) (H: Cleave)
3 Stunning Fist (M: 2wf)
6 great cleave (M: Deflect Arrows)
9 Itwf
12 Icrit bludgeon
15 Gtwf
18 Magical Training (yes I'm being serious, it gives you 80sp, and echoes of training is unlimited rejuv cocoons)
21 OC
24 Vorpal
26 Tactics
27 Blinding Speed
28 PTWF

GMoneyMackDaddy
04-07-2014, 09:46 AM
Having paid anttention to this thread I just etr'd my human monk for the second time and re-jiggered her as a wis/Str build.

VAST improvement, she was ok before as a wis/dex build and did fine in ee content but her dps is already ( at level 22) better than it was at 28, and that is just using crappy grave wraps and lvl 16 knuckles. I'm intrigued to see what happens once I get ee adamantine and tier 2 thunder wraps out, even antipode should be good.

Went for a fairly standard
16 str +4 tome+ 3 lvl up (only + 5 tome out there was 1500 shards..........)
16 con +4 tome
14 dex + 4 tome
16 wis + 5 tome + 2 lvl up.

Pwr attack, cleave, great cleave, ,imp crit, imp 2wf, mob, dodge, spring attack, overwhelming crit

17 aps into human to get max amp,
41 aps into shintao for capstone,
Rest into ninja for sa and helpless

Twists: cocoon, ld tactics, and sense weakness.

The only thing I really miss at the moment is twisting the ld haste boost, but I'm pretty sure sense weakness is better overall.

Stun dc is still going to hit mid 70's,
QP dc will only be mid 50's but thats life, lets face it, it ain't what it once was.

My only uncertainty is whether to bother with vorpal strikes or to take blinding speed.
I'm not sure of the usefulNess of vorpal/s in higher level content, while the increased attack speed of bh is very nice and allows her to discard jordangals collar.
She has ee treads of falling shadow, but am leaning towards blinding speed at the moment.

Anyway, my thanks to those wise contributors in this thread.

Another option is to run in LD, and twist in cocoon, a dance of flowers, and sense weakness....

That way you still had leg tactics, imp power attack, HASTE BOOST (love it!), also Devistating Critical which stacks with OC. Oh and i fogot to mention MASTERS BLITZ... which i think is just lovely.

I switch ED's off and on between GMoF and LD, and i find i can do more damage in LD, but the SF and QP does drop, compared to running in GMOF.

Just a suggestion.

PS. I've been pondering dropping PTWF in favor of blazing speed... just haven't pulled the tirgger yet.

relenttless
04-07-2014, 10:08 AM
1 dodge (M: power Attack) (H: Cleave)
3 Stunning Fist (M: 2wf)
6 great cleave (M: Deflect Arrows)
9 Itwf
12 Icrit bludgeon
15 Gtwf
18 Magical Training (yes I'm being serious, it gives you 80sp, and echoes of training is unlimited rejuv cocoons)
21 OC
24 Vorpal
26 Tactics
27 Blinding Speed
28 PTWF

I know enough to take your suggestions seriously! Interesting idea, very interesting. Does magical training work for pure build with no inherent sp, though? Is it even an option on the list of choices? Can't recall.

Currently just yellow slotting sp Aug which is no problem, but love the idea of not running out. Definitly worth swapping out spring attack for.

edit: dammmm just went to see fred and it is possible on a pure...will think about this ....

relenttless
04-07-2014, 10:11 AM
Another option is to run in LD, and twist in cocoon, a dance of flowers, and sense weakness....

That way you still had leg tactics, imp power attack, HASTE BOOST (love it!), also Devistating Critical which stacks with OC. Oh and i fogot to mention MASTERS BLITZ... which i think is just lovely.

I switch ED's off and on between GMoF and LD, and i find i can do more damage in LD, but the SF and QP does drop, compared to running in GMOF.

Just a suggestion.

PS. I've been pondering dropping PTWF in favor of blazing speed... just haven't pulled the tirgger yet.

Was intending to try out running in both Ld and fotw just to see what its like, rather than gmof _probably try it solo though, :-)

Edit: tried it out in LD......impressive numbers once blitz kicks in, saw crits of well over 2.5 k, great damage for a monk, particularly at this level and without top end wraps -stun still seemed pretty good, however I can see it might only be of value in certain qsts and when soloing, trying to compete for kills in a party situation might actually be counterproductive if running with another Blitzer, better just stun in gmof and drop ein/drifting lotus, still, its certainly a lot of fun

Munkenmo
04-07-2014, 03:47 PM
edit: dammmm just went to see fred and it is possible on a pure...will think about this ....

Yep, it was a good day when the devs made that feat selectable.


PS. I've been pondering dropping PTWF in favor of blazing speed... just haven't pulled the tirgger yet.

You're comparing an ED feat and an epic feat, they're not interchangeable.

GMoneyMackDaddy
04-07-2014, 04:42 PM
Yep, it was a good day when the devs made that feat selectable.



You're comparing an ED feat and an epic feat, they're not interchangeable.

Yep, you are right... could drop imp. MA for blinding speed I guess.

Fallout_Zero
04-08-2014, 03:24 PM
Yep, you are right... could drop imp. MA for blinding speed I guess.

Feat slots are valuable. I use EE Jorg collar so don't need blinding speed.

HungarianRhapsody
04-08-2014, 04:28 PM
Ps. Oh yeah, dont dump con, thats just silly talk...


No it's not, see above.

Dumping HP is silly talk. Dumping Con as a starting stat is not silly since there are lots and lots of ways to get more Con in particular and more HP in general.

More Con is always good. It's important to recognize that lots of other things are good. If you need Str for something specific (Overwhelming Crit and damage in general) or Wis (DC and saving throws) or Dex (17 is absolutely required) some other stat, then it's okay to let Con slide in order to hit that goal. If you have build points available to put into Con, then do so. But don't skimp on something important just for "MOAR CON".

Dumping Con at character creation is fine if you have a reason to do so (and there are lots of reasons to do so) as long as you make up for it later.

Humperdink
04-20-2014, 09:40 PM
Was intending to try out running in both Ld and fotw just to see what its like, rather than gmof _probably try it solo though, :-)

Edit: tried it out in LD......impressive numbers once blitz kicks in, saw crits of well over 2.5 k, great damage for a monk, particularly at this level and without top end wraps -stun still seemed pretty good, however I can see it might only be of value in certain qsts and when soloing, trying to compete for kills in a party situation might actually be counterproductive if running with another Blitzer, better just stun in gmof and drop ein/drifting lotus, still, its certainly a lot of fun

Some silly fun is haste boosting combined with stunning fist in LD and No Mercy from Ninja Spy. Twist in Sense Weakness. Combine with OC and Earth Stance. 50% Stunned + 30% No Mercy + 30% Sense Weakness + 50% from LD means your damage goes up *dramatically*. =D You're right about the usual limitations of running in LD though, generally more fun for soloing or in a group that knows you're Blitzing.

Xiadais
04-23-2014, 02:02 AM
Haha, no, I understand what you're saying; I know how Vorpal works. But its effects only activate on a roll of 20; the other two things are passive and work regardless of what you roll (unless you miss, of course). I'm just not a fan of (relying on..) RNG effects, really. I'm more in to passive effects that I can easily see a difference in, rather than "oh, that just happened. okay, next mob". Don't get me wrong, a passive Vorpal effect is nothing to laugh at considering the wraps I'd be using (Antipode, or something crafted perhaps), I just don't like the RNG involved is all.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but vorpal is an extra "bane" damage, not part of your main number, and is therefore not boosted by damage boost, black dragonscale 5%, blitz, stun +50% +30% +30% +50%, and vulnerability. Plus, improved martial arts works better with Empty Hand Mastery--which makes it 4.5 damage per hit (d8 = 4.5 average), able to be multiplied, and consistent (rather than waiting to roll a 20). Oh, and improved martial arts doesn't require 23 base wisdom ^_^. Zombies still do have DR, though, unfortunately.

thegreatneil
04-23-2014, 02:58 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but vorpal is an extra "bane" damage, not part of your main number, and is therefore not boosted by damage boost, black dragonscale 5%, blitz, stun +50% +30% +30% +50%, and vulnerability. Plus, improved martial arts works better with Empty Hand Mastery--which makes it 4.5 damage per hit (d8 = 4.5 average), able to be multiplied, and consistent (rather than waiting to roll a 20). Oh, and improved martial arts doesn't require 23 base wisdom ^_^. Zombies still do have DR, though, unfortunately.

Just wanted to note, vorpal (and manslayer) IS affected by stun.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/iamthegreatneil/230vorpal.png (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/iamthegreatneil/media/230vorpal.png.html)