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Requimatic
02-24-2014, 04:50 PM
Hail, Rogues.

I've returned to DDO from a long break, and I'm ready to start a Rogue now that enhancements have changed so much, and since STR is kind of a non-issue anymore for Assassins. Though I do realize that dropping STR can cause you to miss out on Overwhelming Critical, I'm currently not funded or equipped enough to get the tomes required for that level of STR just yet. But thankfully I have a heart ready for any LR I need to do.

Base stats are as follows:

Human:
STR 14
DEX 16 (+1 tome, +1 @ level 4) = 18
CON 14
INT 16

Essentially, I'm curious if my base stats are fine for a primarily Assassin DPS-oriented build. I know INT is the modifier in question for Assassinates, so I was thinking of either dropping another point in to DEX at the next level up, then the other two in to INT. Pile tomes in on top of them, plus items, enhancements, etc. But then there's the above issue I stated: losing the possibility of Overwhelming Critical without a base 23 STR.

I'm also curious if it would be viable at all to drop any Rogue levels to splash in to Monk or another class. I was thinking of perhaps splashing in to Monk at 18 for Grand Master stances at least, and some other level for whatever. Probably a level where Rogues don't get anything, or get anything that great. But the Assassin tree capstone seems pretty solid.. I'm not sure if splashing in to anything would be worth that loss, although the Monk GM stances are pretty beneficial, and the Ninja Spy tree isn't bad either.

So any thoughts, insights and whatnot? Thanks in advance!

Stoner81
02-24-2014, 09:33 PM
If you are going full on Assassin then don't splash at all, you need all the INT you can get to boost up your Assassinate DC's, Rogues get a lot of their damage from Sneak Attack which you will lose out on if you splash too. If you are thinking of splashing Monk then something like 12 Rogue, 6 Monk 2 Fighter and go Acrobat with quarterstaffs.

Check out my build in the link in my signature and see if something like that suits you (it does need updating a little and some tweaking).

Stoner81.

Brattyone
02-24-2014, 11:04 PM
If you're wanting to play an assassin, I wouldn't splash. Starting with an int of 16 is fine for anything really on hard. If you get into playing a lot of elite quests, and certainly for epic elite...I'd max int. I've played a str based assassin (with starting int at 16 and also a maxed int, high dex based assassin). The first was just fine up until I wanted to assassinate in epic elite. The second was awesome for assassinating but had to really watch agro. With the changes to sneak, as an assassin, you want to max out hide and move silently! And if there are rangers in your party, ask them to pretty please cast camouflage and pass without trace on ya. :)

Requimatic
02-25-2014, 12:22 AM
If you're wanting to play an assassin, I wouldn't splash. Starting with an int of 16 is fine for anything really on hard. If you get into playing a lot of elite quests, and certainly for epic elite...I'd max int. I've played a str based assassin (with starting int at 16 and also a maxed int, high dex based assassin). The first was just fine up until I wanted to assassinate in epic elite. The second was awesome for assassinating but had to really watch agro. With the changes to sneak, as an assassin, you want to max out hide and move silently! And if there are rangers in your party, ask them to pretty please cast camouflage and pass without trace on ya. :)

Haha, thanks for the replies, both of you. But yes, I intend to primarily focus on Assassination, and melee damage in general (read: Sneak Attacking!). Quarterstaves I'm afraid don't suit me, so daggers/kukris it is! Since I'm VIP once more and can pass crafting shards among characters, I'll make myself a pair of WoP daggers and use them for as long as I can. Probably work on getting some decent kukris for later on, whenever I might need to pass Slashing DR. Obviously I want to be able to handle traps, also, so keeping those skills boosted up with high INT will be good for that.

But now that I'm thinking about it more, I'm having trouble deciding on a race. Yeah, Human gets the bonus feat at creation. The Human enhancement line isn't bad either. Couple ability increases (INT/DEX), and that GH clicky would be very handy.. and would last longer than the CL11 Planar Gird. On the other hand, though, Halfling enhancements aren't bad either. +3 SA die, +3 Bluff/SA hit, +3 to all saves, +2 to DEX, +3 MS/Hide should I need it (doubtful really).. I'm leaning towards Halfling, really.

In a group setting, GH would likely be cast on me anyway (among other things), but I could always carry a Gird with me for the extra boost if I needed it for elite trapping.

Despite it being kind of frustrating at times, thinking about these kinds of things and planning ahead is one of the things I really like about DDO.

But with this, what do you all think?

Requimatic
02-25-2014, 02:50 AM
But with this, what do you all think?


I went ahead with:

Halfling:
10 STR
16 DEX
14 CON
18 INT

Assuming it's worth getting, the Rogue-only Epic Feat Improved Sneak Attack would be possible with either 3 level increases to DEX and a +2 tome, or 4 level increases and a +1. Obviously later on if I acquire a +3 or better I could change this and dump the level increases in to INT. But I figured a couple of missing DC on Assassinate is less important than missing out on the Epic Feat. Would I be correct in this assumption?

As far as other EFs go, I was thinking of perma haste and.. I don't know what else. Maybe the auto-search? Rogues don't seem to have much of a choice unless you go for Overwhelming Critical, which seems to require a bit too much (2 feat pre-reqs, and 23 STR base..). Plus with up to.. 24?d6 Sneak Attack damage, I don't think I'd miss out too much without OC.

But with 18 INT I'll be able to keep the pertinent skills topped off as I level, and have a decent Assassinate DC, I think. 10 + 20 + INT mod + 8? from Assassin enhancements (+3, and up to +5? depending on time spent Sneaking).

PrimalConcreteSledge
02-25-2014, 04:34 AM
I went ahead with:

Halfling:
10 STR
16 DEX
14 CON
18 INT

Assuming it's worth getting, the Rogue-only Epic Feat Improved Sneak Attack would be possible with either 3 level increases to DEX and a +2 tome, or 4 level increases and a +1. Obviously later on if I acquire a +3 or better I could change this and dump the level increases in to INT. But I figured a couple of missing DC on Assassinate is less important than missing out on the Epic Feat. Would I be correct in this assumption?

As far as other EFs go, I was thinking of perma haste and.. I don't know what else. Maybe the auto-search? Rogues don't seem to have much of a choice unless you go for Overwhelming Critical, which seems to require a bit too much (2 feat pre-reqs, and 23 STR base..). Plus with up to.. 24?d6 Sneak Attack damage, I don't think I'd miss out too much without OC.

But with 18 INT I'll be able to keep the pertinent skills topped off as I level, and have a decent Assassinate DC, I think. 10 + 20 + INT mod + 8? from Assassin enhancements (+3, and up to +5? depending on time spent Sneaking).

Those stats are fine. Imp. sneak attack is worth it but you might want to put only a single point in dex during lvl up. Work on getting a +4 dex tome to fit this feat in later. +4 tomes can be bought in shard auction house altho they are not cheap.

There is no way to get high int and qualify for both imp. sneak attack and oc. Oc is ~10% your main dmg and since your main dmg will be low on an assassin, yeah, assassins generaly drop oc. Othervise, go the dps route, drop assassinate entirely and get some tasty splashes.

Perma haste is ok feat, but can be replaced with 2 items in the game that grant 15% meele alacricity (if meele only). Also the attack, dodge and ac bonuses haste should grant do not seam to work with the feat.

You will want to add some defenses on an assassin... Insightfull reflexes and epic prr will make your assassin strong. :)

Requimatic
02-25-2014, 08:36 AM
Those stats are fine. Imp. sneak attack is worth it but you might want to put only a single point in dex during lvl up. Work on getting a +4 dex tome to fit this feat in later. +4 tomes can be bought in shard auction house altho they are not cheap.

There is no way to get high int and qualify for both imp. sneak attack and oc. Oc is ~10% your main dmg and since your main dmg will be low on an assassin, yeah, assassins generaly drop oc. Othervise, go the dps route, drop assassinate entirely and get some tasty splashes.

Perma haste is ok feat, but can be replaced with 2 items in the game that grant 15% meele alacricity (if meele only). Also the attack, dodge and ac bonuses haste should grant do not seam to work with the feat.

You will want to add some defenses on an assassin... Insightfull reflexes and epic prr will make your assassin strong. :)

That's pretty much what I'm going to do. I put my L4 stat in to DEX so I could at least get the TWF feats as early as possible, since I don't currently have a +1 DEX tome. The rest I'll dump in to INT, along with the enhancements from the Assassin tree also. In the mean time, though.. I'll keep hunting tomes on my Monk and hopefully score at least +2/3s for the important stats, if I'm lucky. Go go Shroud chest farming!

CThruTheEgo
02-25-2014, 09:06 AM
The content in which you intend to play this character will help you determine how high your assassinate DC needs to be. If you are going for EE, then you will want to maximize your assassinate as much as is reasonable. If you're only going for EH/EN, then it's not as much of a factor.

If you want to focus on assassinate, then forget about overwhelming crit. It is too expensive in both stat and feat requirements for an assassin. Also, forget about splashing if you want to use assassinate.

Plan your class enhancements out to help you figure out which race is best. There are a lot of useful enhancements in all three of the rogue trees and you may end up with little to spend in the racial tree, which could minimize the benefits of some races. If you're maxing assassinate, then you're going to want both int enhancements from mechanic. Wand and scroll mastery, UMD, and wrack construct are all useful on their own and will help get you to the int enhancements. Faster sneaking, subtlety, and haste boost are all iseful from the acrobat tree. Getting all of those, along with spending 41 in the assassin tree for the capstone, will use up most of your AP.

There is little benefit to many of the races if you're not spending points in the racial tree. This is the reason why I prefer human over halfling. Human can get damage boost and int for only 3 AP. Also, you don't need greater heroism from human. Max your UMD skill and just use scrolls. You are going to need UMD for heal scrolls anyway and greater heroism requires the same UMD to use.

Improved sneak attack is worth it and should be fairly easy to obtain on an int based assassin with dex as a secondary stat.

I would go human with the following stats:

str 8
dex 16
con 14
int 18
wis 8
cha 8

Figure out what number tome is actually reasonable for you to acquire and then put enough level ups into dex to make up the difference to get 21 for improved sneak attack. I would try to get at least a +3 dex tome. Put the rest of your level ups into int. It is better to put points into int first so you get more skill points to spend as you level up, just make sure you have 17 dex by level 9 for itwf.

Be sure to take insightful reflexes to max your reflex save. I wouldn't spend a feat on perma haste since it is available on the goatskin boots and jorgundal's collar, both of which have other useful attributes as well. Go for the boots since we will be getting a necklace for assassins in the next update. For epic destiny feats, take perfect two weapon fighting and elusive target.

Take a look at Hassan's Assassin in my sig for a full build. It is very tome dependent so it likely won't fit your goals completely but it should give you some things to consider.

Requimatic
02-26-2014, 10:04 AM
The content in which you intend to play this character will help you determine how high your assassinate DC needs to be. If you are going for EE, then you will want to maximize your assassinate as much as is reasonable. If you're only going for EH/EN, then it's not as much of a factor.

If you want to focus on assassinate, then forget about overwhelming crit. It is too expensive in both stat and feat requirements for an assassin. Also, forget about splashing if you want to use assassinate.

Plan your class enhancements out to help you figure out which race is best. There are a lot of useful enhancements in all three of the rogue trees and you may end up with little to spend in the racial tree, which could minimize the benefits of some races. If you're maxing assassinate, then you're going to want both int enhancements from mechanic. Wand and scroll mastery, UMD, and wrack construct are all useful on their own and will help get you to the int enhancements. Faster sneaking, subtlety, and haste boost are all iseful from the acrobat tree. Getting all of those, along with spending 41 in the assassin tree for the capstone, will use up most of your AP.

There is little benefit to many of the races if you're not spending points in the racial tree. This is the reason why I prefer human over halfling. Human can get damage boost and int for only 3 AP. Also, you don't need greater heroism from human. Max your UMD skill and just use scrolls. You are going to need UMD for heal scrolls anyway and greater heroism requires the same UMD to use.

Improved sneak attack is worth it and should be fairly easy to obtain on an int based assassin with dex as a secondary stat.

I would go human with the following stats:

str 8
dex 16
con 14
int 18
wis 8
cha 8

Figure out what number tome is actually reasonable for you to acquire and then put enough level ups into dex to make up the difference to get 21 for improved sneak attack. I would try to get at least a +3 dex tome. Put the rest of your level ups into int. It is better to put points into int first so you get more skill points to spend as you level up, just make sure you have 17 dex by level 9 for itwf.

Be sure to take insightful reflexes to max your reflex save. I wouldn't spend a feat on perma haste since it is available on the goatskin boots and jorgundal's collar, both of which have other useful attributes as well. Go for the boots since we will be getting a necklace for assassins in the next update. For epic destiny feats, take perfect two weapon fighting and elusive target.

Take a look at Hassan's Assassin in my sig for a full build. It is very tome dependent so it likely won't fit your goals completely but it should give you some things to consider.

That's a pretty comprehensive guide, and a good looking build, thanks. Unfortunately, I'm very limited in the tome department right now. Back in '09 when I played I believe +3 tomes were the best available, and only available from the store during certain times.. so +2s were the best I had on my account, which had been used on my Fighter, Barb, and Monk. Not to mention I'm a first-lifer on all of my characters.. so there's that also.

With that in mind, I'm not sure I could pull off that kind of build (even a lesser variant of it) with what I have currently and it be successful. I certainly don't want to be the trapper in a group and be unable to successfully deal with the traps (or die to them) either.

I think for now, I'll hold off on seriously building a Rogue. At least until I can get a hold of at least a few +2 tomes to supplement it. +3s would be better, but I've only found one +3 tome thus far, and it was WIS and went straight to my Monk.

Cardtrick
02-26-2014, 06:15 PM
I think for now, I'll hold off on seriously building a Rogue. At least until I can get a hold of at least a few +2 tomes to supplement it. +3s would be better, but I've only found one +3 tome thus far, and it was WIS and went straight to my Monk.

Don't hold off on building a rogue if you want to play a rogue! Instead, just hold off on planning for performance in epic elites.

The advice that's been posted in this thread isn't bad, by any means, but a lot of it is targeted toward players who want to have good DCs in the very hardest content in the game. Realistically, an ungeared, first-life character without much in the way of funding or tomes isn't going to hit those values anyway. That's fine! Most players don't do much with epic elites on their first life characters.

Seriously, building for epic elite performance is like building for a different game. Drop a couple of points from INT and put them toward DEX so you can take Improved Sneak Attack more easily. A single point of Assassinate DC isn't going to be a dealbreaker for you in Epic Normal or Epic Hard. Gear matters a lot more than 2 stat points anyway, and that's going to take you a long time to accumulate.

If you've played your rogue for a bit and then you decide that you enjoy it but you want a character who can handle epic elites, that's great! By that point, you'll have accumulated plenty of in-game cash and helpful items, including some tomes or items to trade for tomes. Then you can look at doing either an LR or a TR (the extra 2 build points certainly won't hurt anything).

CThruTheEgo
02-27-2014, 06:17 AM
Don't hold off on building a rogue if you want to play a rogue! Instead, just hold off on planning for performance in epic elites.

This^

That's why I started my post with consideration of the content you intend to play with the character. A build needs to be optimal for epic elite only. You can bring just about any build into EN/EH and succeed. Play what you want to, just recognize the limits of the build and yourself. My very first character was a rogue - a squishy, gimpy rogue - but I had a blast playing it. And on that life, I didn't take him into more difficult content. My assassin is still my favorite. I recognize that my build is probably beyond your means currently, but it can give you some ideas and things to consider to help you build yours to fit your own goals.

Stoner81
02-27-2014, 06:22 AM
Take a look at my build which isn't as heavily dependant on tomes (only requires a +3 tome for DEX by level 21) but you could drop INT by a point and put those points in to DEX so you would need only a +2 tome by level 21 to get Improved Sneak Attack.

Stoner81.

Shadow_Jumper
03-03-2014, 08:12 AM
I went ahead with:

Halfling:
10 STR
16 DEX
14 CON
18 INT

Assuming it's worth getting, the Rogue-only Epic Feat Improved Sneak Attack would be possible with either 3 level increases to DEX and a +2 tome, or 4 level increases and a +1. Obviously later on if I acquire a +3 or better I could change this and dump the level increases in to INT. But I figured a couple of missing DC on Assassinate is less important than missing out on the Epic Feat. Would I be correct in this assumption?

As far as other EFs go, I was thinking of perma haste and.. I don't know what else. Maybe the auto-search? Rogues don't seem to have much of a choice unless you go for Overwhelming Critical, which seems to require a bit too much (2 feat pre-reqs, and 23 STR base..). Plus with up to.. 24?d6 Sneak Attack damage, I don't think I'd miss out too much without OC.

But with 18 INT I'll be able to keep the pertinent skills topped off as I level, and have a decent Assassinate DC, I think. 10 + 20 + INT mod + 8? from Assassin enhancements (+3, and up to +5? depending on time spent Sneaking).

Check out this build if you decide to go halfling. This is what I would call the best balance between a high DC, DPS, and survivability for a halfling assassin. Don't worry too much about gear or tomes, I'm even still looking for some of the gear that I put down, fill in as you find, or even tweak the build to suit your play style, the MOST IMPORTANT thing about rogues is that the player is just as important as the build, if not more so. And always always always have fun, that's the best thing about rogues.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/433981-The-Shadow-Assassin-A-Halfling-Assassin

ReaperAlexEU
03-03-2014, 08:18 AM
Since I'm VIP

you can also save your free monthly TP's up for a +4 DEX tome to help qualify for feats (compare store to the shard AH to see which is cheaper), then you'd only need a +1 levelup. doing that with a +2 tome would get you to 19 DEX in your heroics covering any heroic feat you want (we still get a +2 tome for 1750 favour), then when you plug the +4 in you'll be able to qualify for the epic feats.

also next halloween we should get another shot at grinding out a single +5 stat tome on each character. for my rogue i took the +5 INT and used my VIP points for the +4 DEX.

so if you're not planning to cap in a week you have some other options to get you playing now while still being able to focus the bulk of your levelups on INT :)