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risenfall
02-13-2014, 01:26 AM
Okay this has been bugging me. Finally got VIP and went to do a dex to dmg unarmed monk to find out its impossible. DDO insist that unarmed damage is just that unarmed and aren't really considered weapons. Well this was kind of a kick in the face to me. DDO is based off of 3.5E if I'm right. Which means on page 41 of the players handbook. This was ignored. "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons (such as the magic fang and magic weapon spells)." Also somewhere in there it also states that an unarmed strike is considered a light melee weapon. I even found it on D&D wiki here. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Unarmed_Strike Its also considered to be TWF. Now can I get a DDO QA person to tell me why exactly I can't take a couple levels in ranger and get dex to dmg. Seriously. hurt and confused here.

Munkenmo
02-13-2014, 03:51 AM
It's working as intended. because since the introduction of monks as a class, and unarmed as a combat style, there has not been a developer employed by turbine who has been capable of actually coding as handwraps a weapon.

They won't call hand wrap issues bugs as they can't fix them.

TeacherSyn
02-13-2014, 08:59 AM
It's working as intended. because since the introduction of monks as a class, and unarmed as a combat style, there has not been a developer employed by turbine who has been capable of actually coding as handwraps a weapon.

They won't call hand wrap issues bugs as they can't fix them.

I think that's more than a bit disingenuous.

When unarmed, a Monk's body is the weapon, and Turbine parallels (though isn't required to follow) similar principles in D&D rules for their body's skills and stats to generate damage. An experienced Monk player can enter a quest completely naked and decimate the place with the right application of ki because their fighting prowess isn't entirely wired to a weapon.

Thus, handwraps augment unarmed damage but are purposefully not coded as weapons since this would create two weapon damage modifiers (weapon and unarmed) on a Monk.

While we still haven't seen Green Steel handwraps, the reason for this is less likely a coding challenge but that there are many other options to get potent handwraps that use other crafting systems, such as Alchemical crafting, and the developer's time to update the GS system isn't there. With all the goodies at-hand, I'm OK on this now.

Monks DO get Dexterity to Damage if you train as a Ninja Spy and use piercing/slashing weapons as the requirement. DEX is used as the modifier for attack as well. While Monks don't get Two Weapon Fighting feats automatically, they do benefit greatly from it with better off-hand attacks.

Please don't try to force-fit DDO rules with D&D--the rules of live gameplay differ because DDO isn't a turn-by-turn based game as it's Pen-and-Paper inspiration. A MMORPG has to play things a little differently. I've played the Neverwinter Nights game series and their Monks aren't the same either. I just accept the conditions and win because of or despite of them.

kuro_zero
02-13-2014, 09:08 AM
The Deepwood Stalker enhancement "Improved Weapon Finesse" is not applying to Unarmed attacks or Handwraps.

Maybe we'll get a fix someday.

JOTMON
02-13-2014, 09:48 AM
Okay this has been bugging me. I got VIP to do a dex to dmg unarmed monk to find out its impossible. DDO insist that unarmed damage is just that unarmed and aren't really considered weapons. Well this was kind of a kick in the face to me. DDO is based off of 3.5E if I'm right. Which means on page 41 of the players handbook. This was ignored. "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons (such as the magic fang and magic weapon spells)." Also somewhere in there it also states that an unarmed strike is considered a light melee weapon. I even found it on D&D wiki here. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Unarmed_Strike Its also considered to be TWF. Now can I get a DDO QA person to tell me why exactly I can't take a couple levels in ranger and get dex to dmg. Seriously. hurt and confused here.


DDO has evvolved away and no longer uses D&D as gospel, more of a bathroom reading material.

Lots of stuff has changed.. like Vorpal is no longer Slashing based weapons.. you can get vorpal on any weapon now.

risenfall
02-13-2014, 10:10 AM
It's working as intended. because since the introduction of monks as a class, and unarmed as a combat style, there has not been a developer employed by turbine who has been capable of actually coding as handwraps a weapon.

They won't call hand wrap issues bugs as they can't fix them.

I doubt it would be a coding issue. Like the quote below this sentence. Handwraps aren't considered weapons but more as augments. all basic attack rolls and damage would come from the unarmed strike itself. not the handwraps. So the reason we can't get dex to dmg for unarmed combat is because DDO refuses to accept unarmed strikes as a natural melee weapon.


I think that's more than a bit disingenuous.

When unarmed, a Monk's body is the weapon, and Turbine parallels (though isn't required to follow) similar principles in D&D rules for their body's skills and stats to generate damage. An experienced Monk player can enter a quest completely naked and decimate the place with the right application of ki because their fighting prowess isn't entirely wired to a weapon.

Thus, handwraps augment unarmed damage but are purposefully not coded as weapons since this would create two weapon damage modifiers (weapon and unarmed) on a Monk.

While we still haven't seen Green Steel handwraps, the reason for this is less likely a coding challenge but that there are many other options to get potent handwraps that use other crafting systems, such as Alchemical crafting, and the developer's time to update the GS system isn't there. With all the goodies at-hand, I'm OK on this now.

Monks DO get Dexterity to Damage if you train as a Ninja Spy and use piercing/slashing weapons as the requirement. DEX is used as the modifier for attack as well. While Monks don't get Two Weapon Fighting feats automatically, they do benefit greatly from it with better off-hand attacks.

Please don't try to force-fit DDO rules with D&D--the rules of live gameplay differ because DDO isn't a turn-by-turn based game as it's Pen-and-Paper inspiration. A MMORPG has to play things a little differently. I've played the Neverwinter Nights game series and their Monks aren't the same either. I just accept the conditions and win because of or despite of them.



Seems all we can is accept it. I just love dex based characters and well when I made a monk expecting to get that full on dex to dmg unarmed bada$$ to find out I couldn't well as a nerd it was heart breaking. I think the only other way I could get this heart breakage is if someone took my legacy of the drow book opened it and took a dump on it. tho the person would end up dead. id still be heart broken.

katz
02-13-2014, 10:17 AM
gotta do something to rein in the OP monks....

ddorimble
02-13-2014, 10:36 AM
gotta do something to rein in the OP monks....

Well, that's sort of true. If Monks had Dex to Unarmed they could just max Wis/Dex (with acceptable Con) and be done with it. Requiring Str for melee helps spread things out. Sure, Ninja Spy can use Dex for attack/damage now, but then they can't Stunning Fist or Quivering Palm, kinda balances things out.

TeacherSyn
02-13-2014, 10:58 AM
I doubt it would be a coding issue. Like the quote below this sentence. Handwraps aren't considered weapons but more as augments. all basic attack rolls and damage would come from the unarmed strike itself. not the handwraps. So the reason we can't get dex to dmg for unarmed combat is because DDO refuses to accept unarmed strikes as a natural melee weapon.

Seems all we can is accept it. I just love dex based characters and well when I made a monk expecting to get that full on dex to dmg unarmed bada$$ to find out I couldn't well as a nerd it was heart breaking. I think the only other way I could get this heart breakage is if someone took my legacy of the drow book opened it and took a dump on it. tho the person would end up dead. id still be heart broken.

You can still try the Weapon Finesse feat to work this in with unarmed damage, but many feel this feat isn't particularly effective.


Well, that's sort of true. If Monks had Dex to Unarmed they could just max Wis/Dex (with acceptable Con) and be done with it. Requiring Str for melee helps spread things out. Sure, Ninja Spy can use Dex for attack/damage now, but then they can't Stunning Fist or Quivering Palm, kinda balances things out.

That's not entirely accurate.

While Stunning Fist strictly requires unarmed attack, Ninja Spies are no less effective with it if they are going unarmed, with the right WIS. Quivering Palm now works while armed as well, and its DCs are improved by items/feats/enhancements that improve Sunder DCs as well as WIS modifiers.

EDIT: The Ninjas are apparently getting ninja'd with Update 21, however, where Quivering Palm DCs are returning to the WIS modifier only, but on fail, there is a temporary DC bonus to try again until a kill is recorded. (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/435019-Removal-of-Sundering-Bonuses-to-QP)

risenfall
02-13-2014, 11:18 AM
You can still try the Weapon Finesse feat to work this in with unarmed damage, but many feel this feat isn't particularly effective.

Yeah its not very effective because weapon finesse only changes the attack roll to dex and not the damage roll. so it would be easier to stay with strength based attack rolls if your damage is going to apply to that same stat

Munkenmo
02-13-2014, 01:12 PM
I doubt it would be a coding issue. Like the quote below this sentence. Handwraps aren't considered weapons but more as augments. all basic attack rolls and damage would come from the unarmed strike itself. not the handwraps. So the reason we can't get dex to dmg for unarmed combat is because DDO refuses to accept unarmed strikes as a natural melee weapon.

The entire reason wraps were made "buff type weapons" in the first place is because the devs are incapable of adding new weapon types to the game.

There has not been a single new type of weapon added ever. It's 100% a coding issue.

risenfall
02-13-2014, 01:23 PM
The entire reason wraps were made "buff type weapons" in the first place is because the devs are incapable of adding new weapon types to the game.

There has not been a single new type of weapon added ever. It's 100% a coding issue.

Nah I can tell you it's not. I'm an independent programmer. This game was built with c/c++ and databases most likely an mySQL database. If that was the issue I could simply fix this by throwing a few commands to the database to add to the categories and add a function which would allow wraps to become weapons. Although they arent weapons but more augments. I would add unarmed as a weapon type because that is the issue not the handwraps.

Edit* This was a choice by DDO which can easily be fixed.

ddorimble
02-13-2014, 01:38 PM
While Stunning Fist strictly requires unarmed attack, Ninja Spies are no less effective with it if they are going unarmed, with the right WIS. Quivering Palm now works while armed as well, and its DCs are improved by items/feats/enhancements that improve Sunder DCs as well as WIS modifiers.

I was pointing out they cannot get Dex to Attack/Damage while simultaneously being able to use Stunning Fist/Quivering Palm, not that they suck at it. I was wrong about QP, I missed that change. If Stunning Fist starts working with weapons...that's huge...I would be all over that with a Dex/Wis Ninja Spy Monk...

Saekee
02-13-2014, 01:59 PM
well, for what it is worth, you can use two (only two, AFAIK) handwraps that use the Ninja Spy slashing/piercing dex to damage. One is the level 4 out of 3BC (http://ddowiki.com/page/Scorching_Wraps), the other are the Ivy wraps (http://ddowiki.com/page/Ivy_Wraps). It is a very limited selection, and they do not come with a stun bonus. I do not believe handwraps with are spiked work. Spencerian do you know if they do?

Otherwise, ninjas get great use out of short swords and get dex to damage with them. You just can't do stunning fist of course.
I recommend for low levels the overpowered Tiefling's Assassin blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Tiefling_Assassin%27s_Blade) (also from 3BC). It comes with a crazy threat range (15-20), wounding and poison, so it works strongly in concert with the ninja enhancements (like Sting etc).

Munkenmo
02-13-2014, 02:11 PM
Nah I can tell you it's not. I'm an independent programmer. This game was built with c/c++ and databases most likely an mySQL database. If that was the issue I could simply fix this by throwing a few commands to the database to add to the categories and add a function which would allow wraps to become weapons. Although they arent weapons but more augments. I would add unarmed as a weapon type because that is the issue not the handwraps.

Edit* This was a choice by DDO which can easily be fixed.


HAHAHA.

Given all the bugs handwraps have had over the years, do you honestly believe turbine wouldn't have changed and fixed them if they were capable of doing so.

There's a lot of client side files that you could browse to see what a mess their databases are.

Munkenmo
02-13-2014, 02:12 PM
well, for what it is worth, you can use two (only two, AFAIK) handwraps that use the Ninja Spy slashing/piercing dex to damage. One is the level 4 out of 3BC (http://ddowiki.com/page/Scorching_Wraps), the other are the Ivy wraps (http://ddowiki.com/page/Ivy_Wraps). It is a very limited selection, and they do not come with a stun bonus. I do not believe handwraps with are spiked work.

They only bypass piercing damage reduction, sadly the ninja spy enhancements don't count them as piercing weapons.

risenfall
02-13-2014, 02:22 PM
HAHAHA.

Given all the bugs handwraps have had over the years, do you honestly believe turbine wouldn't have changed and fixed them if they were capable of doing so.

There's a lot of client side files that you could browse to see what a mess their databases are.

You seem to be missing my point. Handwraps aren't the issue. They are meant to only modify unarmed damage. They are not weapons however unarmed is considered a melee weapon type. If they would fix this and give unarmed striking(not handwraps) its proper place in light weapons. The issue with dex to dmg with handwraps would go away. because the dex to dmg would apply to unarmed combat while with handwraps would still get the modified damage. So essientially is what im trying to get across is giving unarmed combat the dex to dmg and then applying the handwrap modifiers. would immediately fix the problem. Again to make sure you get it this time. HANDWRAPS ARE NOT WEAPONS

ddorimble
02-13-2014, 02:27 PM
They only bypass piercing damage reduction, sadly the ninja spy enhancements don't count them as piercing weapons.

Yeah, pretty sure they fixed the Ninja Spy stuff to work off the normal damage type of a weapon. So out are Ivy Wraps and that slashing Quarterstaff, in is Celestia, and I don't know what else.

TeacherSyn
02-14-2014, 12:39 PM
Yeah, pretty sure they fixed the Ninja Spy stuff to work off the normal damage type of a weapon. So out are Ivy Wraps and that slashing Quarterstaff, in is Celestia, and I don't know what else.

The language in Sting of the Ninja description says it all, purposefully restricting it to work with shortswords, kamas and shuriken only, if I recall (I'm not in-game at present). That's still a pretty large list of weapons.

Violith
02-14-2014, 12:47 PM
The language in Sting of the Ninja description says it all, purposefully restricting it to work with shortswords, kamas and shuriken only, if I recall (I'm not in-game at present). That's still a pretty large list of weapons.

I think they were talking about
Advanced Ninja Training: While you are centered, you can use your Dexterity modifier for damage with piercing and slashing weapons. You also gain a chance based on your Dexterity score to throw an extra shuriken per attack.

It used to allow the ivy wraps (which do have peircing damage type) to give dex to damage, the cove gloves never did as they applied a d4 piercing damage rather then adding piercing type to the weapon. They have since changed it so it doesnt work with any handwraps, including the ivy wraps. (the lower lvl scorched wraps have the same named effect, but... not sure if they worked or not. I know first hand the ivy wraps did at one point, but never had a pair of the scorched to try)

however, we did have a mention to get vorpal strikes to get looked at and possible applied to it... but, since they changed ivy wraps to not work with it I doubt they will get around to that.

TeacherSyn
02-14-2014, 01:05 PM
I think they were talking about
Advanced Ninja Training: While you are centered, you can use your Dexterity modifier for damage with piercing and slashing weapons. You also gain a chance based on your Dexterity score to throw an extra shuriken per attack.

It used to allow the ivy wraps (which do have peircing damage type) to give dex to damage, the cove gloves never did as they applied a d4 piercing damage rather then adding piercing type to the weapon. They have since changed it so it doesnt work with any handwraps, including the ivy wraps. (the lower lvl scorched wraps have the same named effect, but... not sure if they worked or not. I know first hand the ivy wraps did at one point, but never had a pair of the scorched to try)

however, we did have a mention to get vorpal strikes to get looked at and possible applied to it... but, since they changed ivy wraps to not work with it I doubt they will get around to that.

The last updates disabled the Ivy Wraps and Scorching Wraps as actual piercing/slashing "weapons." Likewise, my use of Vorpal Strikes on one of my ninjas doesn't send poison while unarmed at present.

assimilateur
02-16-2014, 02:45 AM
Please don't try to force-fit DDO rules with D&D--the rules of live gameplay differ because DDO isn't a turn-by-turn based game as its Pen-and-Paper inspiration. A MMORPG has to play things a little differently.

You can justify things like using spell points as opposed to a low number of spells per day, the bloated mob hit points or other scaling-related peculiarities along those principles, but I don't see how that even remotely applies to something like using dexterity for unarmed damage.

TeacherSyn
02-17-2014, 09:07 AM
You can justify things like using spell points as opposed to a low number of spells per day, the bloated mob hit points or other scaling-related peculiarities along those principles, but I don't see how that even remotely applies to something like using dexterity for unarmed damage.

As said, we already have this: Weapon Finesse. However, most people don't like it.

I don't make the game, I just beat it by its own rules as best I can. Most of us succeed, perceived imbalances or not.

I shout out when there's a significant bug or issue, but if I have to stoop to complaining about the game overall design, I'm only wasting my time and should be playing something else. You should consider this as well.

assimilateur
02-17-2014, 12:50 PM
I shout out when there's a significant bug or issue, but if I have to stoop to complaining about the game overall design, I'm only wasting my time and should be playing something else. You should consider this as well.

Consider this then: they were planning on nerfing quivering palm into oblivion and have recently backpedaled to only nerfing it halfway. It would be one hell of a coincidence if this change of plans wasn't related to people complaining about it.

TeacherSyn
02-17-2014, 02:54 PM
Consider this then: they were planning on nerfing quivering palm into oblivion and have recently backpedaled to only nerfing it halfway. It would be one hell of a coincidence if this change of plans wasn't related to people complaining about it.

Not everything can be fully tested for balance on the test servers.

If there is anyone to "blame," the players themselves are to be in the sense that imbalance would be demonstrated by the players who maximize the ability and then spread the word to others.

In short, the "Fight Club" rule is continually violated, so it's a matter of time before the devs spot the activity and compare it to other classes (or have other reasons in terms of mechanics) and then decide to nerf it for balance. Again, their game, their rules. We all generally beat the game, either way.

twigzz
02-17-2014, 03:23 PM
HAHAHA.

Given all the bugs handwraps have had over the years, do you honestly believe turbine wouldn't have changed and fixed them if they were capable of doing so.

There's a lot of client side files that you could browse to see what a mess their databases are.

True story!

assimilateur
02-18-2014, 10:19 AM
Again, their game, their rules.

OK? Discussing the rules is not just generally permissible and reasonable if it is being done by (presumably) paying customers, but in some rare cases even useful, as demonstrated here when a nerf is being lessened before it is rolled out because people were complaining about it. You're not wrong in that the nerf itself was presumably precipitated by people talking about how OP QP was, but wanting to silence discussion like this based on people supposedly not calling the shots is ridiculous.

niehues
05-22-2014, 06:14 AM
I'm still not sure why Turbine did not code the wraps as tiny weaps that are holded by monks.. if they do so we could even see the weap effects on the monk's hands.. (like holy or poison...)


It would eliminate all the wraps are not weap and would be also a lot easy to code stuff i guess.. ( not as easy as change the descriptions tho :D )

TeacherSyn
05-22-2014, 02:16 PM
I'm still not sure why Turbine did not code the wraps as tiny weaps that are holded by monks.. if they do so we could even see the weap effects on the monk's hands.. (like holy or poison...)


It would eliminate all the wraps are not weap and would be also a lot easy to code stuff i guess.. ( not as easy as change the descriptions tho :D )

The thread's a little old, but it's not dead yet. :)

The reason why handwraps aren't coded as weapons is because the Monk's body is coded as the weapon. Look at the Monk article on the DDO Wiki to see what I mean. (http://ddowiki.com/page/Monk) One column separates Monks from most; the Unarmed Damage column. Here, even if you fight completely barehanded (no handwraps at all), you still deal incredible damage, and can add any ki elemental and special attack. Your innate unarmed damage works as other weapons might, increasing as you level. The Monk augments the handwraps, not the other way around.

The Monk, by design, is the only class that can fight without a stitch of gear on, at-level, yet still prevail and survive. Not that I'd like to do so, but it can be done.

You can see what your Monk does in terms of damage with handwraps on, in the Detail of your Inventory, as you would with any other weapon. In particularly, the weapon damage modifier is shown and other information. Again, you don't see the general damage because that's part of the Monk itself.

Because of this, early on, the idea of Green Steel handwraps was a PiTA for the devs. Now with Cannith crafting and other special ways to generate handwraps, its not as much as a problem. But we'll likely never see GS wraps as that is older (and stable) code that doesn't need changing for Monks and possibly borking Shroud crafting for everyone else.

Munkenmo
05-22-2014, 04:34 PM
[QUOTE=Spencerian;5339481
The Monk, by design, is the only class that can fight without a stitch of gear on, at-level, yet still prevail and survive. Not that I'd like to do so, but it can be done.[/QUOTE]

Really? An animal form druid works just aswell with healing a pet and summons to boot.

In any content a naked monk could contribute a self healing caster would likely be just as effective too.

HGM-Chi
05-22-2014, 04:56 PM
As said, we already have this: Weapon Finesse. However, most people don't like it.

You do realize that the Weapon Finesse feat does not apply dex to damage, right? Because you seem to keep saying this like it does. Weapon Finesse only allows you to use your dex modifier for ToHit with light weapons, or weapons that are specifically classified as light with regards to this feat (rapiers).

@risenfall - If you're willing to splash 3 levels of rogue and use the Weapon Finesse feat, you can spend 6AP on getting dex to damage with light weapons. I am not sure if this works with unarmed, but I would hope it does, given the investment. Update: Nevermind, the wiki says it doesn't work with unarmed or handwraps. Pfft.

And for the record, I'm with fTdOmen on this, the reason why this, and a lot of EDs don't work with unarmed is due to the code. Turbine clearly don't have the resources to sort it out effectively.

TeacherSyn
05-23-2014, 10:49 AM
You do realize that the Weapon Finesse feat does not apply dex to damage, right? Because you seem to keep saying this like it does. Weapon Finesse only allows you to use your dex modifier for ToHit with light weapons, or weapons that are specifically classified as light with regards to this feat (rapiers).

@risenfall - If you're willing to splash 3 levels of rogue and use the Weapon Finesse feat, you can spend 6AP on getting dex to damage with light weapons. I am not sure if this works with unarmed, but I would hope it does, given the investment. Update: Nevermind, the wiki says it doesn't work with unarmed or handwraps. Pfft.

And for the record, I'm with fTdOmen on this, the reason why this, and a lot of EDs don't work with unarmed is due to the code. Turbine clearly don't have the resources to sort it out effectively.

I know that Weapon Finesse isn't true dex-to-damage, yes. Monks need STR for damage unless they are Ninja Spies with completed core 1 and 2 training to gain true DEX-to-Damage, which works very well. It doesn't invalidate Finesse as an option for some builds.

It's fascinating to me when I see posters complain that the developers must not have this or that and then rail how they're failing. If you don't like the game or its implementation--and can't get employed there to fix what you think is wrong--why play it? I won't spend time complaining about game mechanics that work (even if imperfectly) nor insult the good work that Turbine has done with their resources (or get infractions for speaking nasty).

RobbinB
05-23-2014, 12:00 PM
The thread's a little old, but it's not dead yet. :)

The reason why handwraps aren't coded as weapons is because the Monk's body is coded as the weapon. Look at the Monk article on the DDO Wiki to see what I mean. (http://ddowiki.com/page/Monk) One column separates Monks from most; the Unarmed Damage column. Here, even if you fight completely barehanded (no handwraps at all), you still deal incredible damage, and can add any ki elemental and special attack. Your innate unarmed damage works as other weapons might, increasing as you level. The Monk augments the handwraps, not the other way around.

The Monk, by design, is the only class that can fight without a stitch of gear on, at-level, yet still prevail and survive. Not that I'd like to do so, but it can be done.

You can see what your Monk does in terms of damage with handwraps on, in the Detail of your Inventory, as you would with any other weapon. In particularly, the weapon damage modifier is shown and other information. Again, you don't see the general damage because that's part of the Monk itself.

Because of this, early on, the idea of Green Steel handwraps was a PiTA for the devs. Now with Cannith crafting and other special ways to generate handwraps, its not as much as a problem. But we'll likely never see GS wraps as that is older (and stable) code that doesn't need changing for Monks and possibly borking Shroud crafting for everyone else.

Honestly, I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. The devs had a choice when they introduced monks to code the handwraps like any other weapon or differently like they did. I'm not sure if they did it differently because it was cool or it matched better philosophically (as you said "the monk is the weapon"). Bottom line, is after only a few months and definitely after a year or 2 it became very evident that this method of coding made hw buggy. I made the point at that time that long-term it would be a better idea to recode hw as weapons like all others as this reduces the complexity and number of possible bugs.
I'm not sure whether Turbine is just stubborn or they honestly thought they could figure out and stabilize the hw bug issues, but let's face it they made a bad choice. And it's a common mistake when people make bad choices to say "well, we already started down this path" but the truth is the argument for recoding hw as weapons is just as logical/true today as it was back a few year's ago.

Coding hw as weapons doesn't make "the monk is the weapon" not work. For example, if an Epic destiny can add the cold iron property to any weapon wielded than certainly the code can be set up "if Shintao monk is using handwraps then add cold iron property" just as easily. The +w change took care of the "changing base damage for unarmed attacks with monk level" problem. If hw were coded like all other weapons we wouldn't have to to check if every single effect added to the game from here to eternity either is incorrectly being applied to hw when it's not supposed to be, or isn't being applied to hw when it should be.

Amideus
08-01-2014, 02:06 PM
Honestly, I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. The devs had a choice when they introduced monks to code the handwraps like any other weapon or differently like they did. I'm not sure if they did it differently because it was cool or it matched better philosophically (as you said "the monk is the weapon"). Bottom line, is after only a few months and definitely after a year or 2 it became very evident that this method of coding made hw buggy. I made the point at that time that long-term it would be a better idea to recode hw as weapons like all others as this reduces the complexity and number of possible bugs.
I'm not sure whether Turbine is just stubborn or they honestly thought they could figure out and stabilize the hw bug issues, but let's face it they made a bad choice. And it's a common mistake when people make bad choices to say "well, we already started down this path" but the truth is the argument for recoding hw as weapons is just as logical/true today as it was back a few year's ago.

Coding hw as weapons doesn't make "the monk is the weapon" not work. For example, if an Epic destiny can add the cold iron property to any weapon wielded than certainly the code can be set up "if Shintao monk is using handwraps then add cold iron property" just as easily. The +w change took care of the "changing base damage for unarmed attacks with monk level" problem. If hw were coded like all other weapons we wouldn't have to to check if every single effect added to the game from here to eternity either is incorrectly being applied to hw when it's not supposed to be, or isn't being applied to hw when it should be.

You are grossly misinformed on how this game and weapon coding and handwraps work, and it's very apparent that you are just pulling what you personally believe into the discussion as logic. Guess what you're wrong and you can argue all you want with made up logic, it still makes you wrong.

The problem with handwraps began with the coding for unarmed strikes itself. Most weapons have a crit profile and base damage as well as modifiers as part of the base weapon itself. Monks with unarmed strike do not use a base weapon for damage and crit profile. Instead they use a value that is coded into the character itself, and modified by the feat, separate from how other weapons are used. Now this was before the change to make everything X[W] based for damage, so unarmed attacks were given a set value for damage, and a crit profile of 20x2 to be modified when needed. This meant that unarmed attacks had to have specific pointers that affected ONLY the unarmed values, and handwraps simply added effects to your attacks.

The problem arose in how to modify the unarmed attacks in the same way that weapons are modified. The coding is built from the ground up, so simply changing handwraps to a weapon type and having feats and enhancements change that weapons values would not be feasible, would end up being clunky and would require an overhaul on nearly every monk implementation so far. So the other option would be to add additional conditions to all modifiers so that they affect the characters unarmed attacks directly as well as normal weapons separately. This leads to having one bonus affect too many different aspects of the game. Ultimately they decided that the current state of handwraps with the available options was perfectly acceptable, and even that those limitations and benefits worked out fine. Up until the large nerfs to Wisdom based monk builds this was for the most part true, as monks gave up being able to cap raw damage with the ability to access special attacks that gave a wide range of utility and power to unarmed builds, with the option to use a weapon. Since the massive nerf to QP and a few other changes I no longer agree with unarmed being in a good place.

And for anyone that wants to even remotely argue that having X thing for Y monk not work because it does in PNP, HANDWRAPS DO NOT EXIST IN PNP. All those nice modifiers and bonuses, that holy burst and other effects would never be added to your weapons, and you have very very very limited options for being able to get magical effects on unarmed attacks in PNP. So stop spitting out your holier than thou attitude because one aspect of PNP doesn't apply to what you want to do in a game that has massively improved upon monks from PNP.

autochthon
08-01-2014, 03:08 PM
There are some variant rules for enchanting natural weapons in PnP somewhere IIRC, which I imahgine is where handwraps came out of.

Seems to me that monk's coding needs a total overhaul.

RobbinB
08-01-2014, 05:42 PM
You are grossly misinformed on how this game and weapon coding and handwraps work, and it's very apparent that you are just pulling what you personally believe into the discussion as logic. Guess what you're wrong and you can argue all you want with made up logic, it still makes you wrong.

The problem with handwraps began with the coding for unarmed strikes itself. Most weapons have a crit profile and base damage as well as modifiers as part of the base weapon itself. Monks with unarmed strike do not use a base weapon for damage and crit profile. Instead they use a value that is coded into the character itself, and modified by the feat, separate from how other weapons are used. Now this was before the change to make everything X[W] based for damage, so unarmed attacks were given a set value for damage, and a crit profile of 20x2 to be modified when needed. This meant that unarmed attacks had to have specific pointers that affected ONLY the unarmed values, and handwraps simply added effects to your attacks.

The problem arose in how to modify the unarmed attacks in the same way that weapons are modified. The coding is built from the ground up, so simply changing handwraps to a weapon type and having feats and enhancements change that weapons values would not be feasible, would end up being clunky and would require an overhaul on nearly every monk implementation so far. So the other option would be to add additional conditions to all modifiers so that they affect the characters unarmed attacks directly as well as normal weapons separately. This leads to having one bonus affect too many different aspects of the game. Ultimately they decided that the current state of handwraps with the available options was perfectly acceptable, and even that those limitations and benefits worked out fine. Up until the large nerfs to Wisdom based monk builds this was for the most part true, as monks gave up being able to cap raw damage with the ability to access special attacks that gave a wide range of utility and power to unarmed builds, with the option to use a weapon. Since the massive nerf to QP and a few other changes I no longer agree with unarmed being in a good place.
.


The devs did have the choice when they introduced monks to make handwraps a weapon like any other. Handwraps adding values on top of unarmed is more faithful to PnP unarmed strikes, which would be great if they could have done it without issues, but they couldn't and still can't. There's absolutely no need to have the unarmed strike do the base damage and then add the modifiers from handwraps on top in DDO since players will always be equipping handwraps for unarmed fighting. (Whether hw exist or not in PnP isn't relevant).



And for anyone that wants to even remotely argue that having X thing for Y monk not work because it does in PNP, HANDWRAPS DO NOT EXIST IN PNP. All those nice modifiers and bonuses, that holy burst and other effects would never be added to your weapons, and you have very very very limited options for being able to get magical effects on unarmed attacks in PNP. So stop spitting out your holier than thou attitude because one aspect of PNP doesn't apply to what you want to do in a game that has massively improved upon monks from PNP.

Again, I'm absolutely not following what you are saying (or refuting) here. I don't see where I ever claimed to care about whether DDO is or isn't like PnP. It just doesn't make sense to implement entirely new coding systems where they are not needed and introduce a constant stream of bugs. If end result of unarmed strike + hw modifier in dps terms is the same as hw strike + monk modifiers, but the former coding method creates bugs and the latter doesn't, then it simply isn't logical to stick with the former.

But you are probably right, I'm probably completely missing something about coding. Maybe it's not possible to do the following:
- if no weapon is equipped, treat the character as if he/she had base handwraps equipped
- monks get + r/s/t/u/v to damage (or 0.5w increments now) at levels a/b/c/d/e
- if handwraps are equipped, certain feats/skills/enhancements add modifiers to damage or other properties to the handwraps (or the character)

autochthon
08-01-2014, 06:50 PM
The devs did have the choice when they introduced monks to make handwraps a weapon like any other. Handwraps adding values on top of unarmed is more faithful to PnP unarmed strikes, which would be great if they could have done it without issues, but they couldn't and still can't. There's absolutely no need to have the unarmed strike do the base damage and then add the modifiers from handwraps on top in DDO since players will always be equipping handwraps for unarmed fighting. (Whether hw exist or not in PnP isn't relevant).



Again, I'm absolutely not following what you are saying (or refuting) here. I don't see where I ever claimed to care about whether DDO is or isn't like PnP. It just doesn't make sense to implement entirely new coding systems where they are not needed and introduce a constant stream of bugs. If end result of unarmed strike + hw modifier in dps terms is the same as hw strike + monk modifiers, but the former coding method creates bugs and the latter doesn't, then it simply isn't logical to stick with the former.

But you are probably right, I'm probably completely missing something about coding. Maybe it's not possible to do the following:
- if no weapon is equipped, treat the character as if he/she had base handwraps equipped
- monks get + r/s/t/u/v to damage (or 0.5w increments now) at levels a/b/c/d/e
- if handwraps are equipped, certain feats/skills/enhancements add modifiers to damage or other properties to the handwraps (or the character)

Nota coding genius but my BEST bet is that unarmed damage was a thing (in the code) before monks and that's why monks have such a snarl in coding.

Amideus
08-05-2014, 11:12 PM
The devs did have the choice when they introduced monks to make handwraps a weapon like any other. Handwraps adding values on top of unarmed is more faithful to PnP unarmed strikes, which would be great if they could have done it without issues, but they couldn't and still can't. There's absolutely no need to have the unarmed strike do the base damage and then add the modifiers from handwraps on top in DDO since players will always be equipping handwraps for unarmed fighting. (Whether hw exist or not in PnP isn't relevant).



Again, I'm absolutely not following what you are saying (or refuting) here. I don't see where I ever claimed to care about whether DDO is or isn't like PnP. It just doesn't make sense to implement entirely new coding systems where they are not needed and introduce a constant stream of bugs. If end result of unarmed strike + hw modifier in dps terms is the same as hw strike + monk modifiers, but the former coding method creates bugs and the latter doesn't, then it simply isn't logical to stick with the former.

But you are probably right, I'm probably completely missing something about coding. Maybe it's not possible to do the following:
- if no weapon is equipped, treat the character as if he/she had base handwraps equipped
- monks get + r/s/t/u/v to damage (or 0.5w increments now) at levels a/b/c/d/e
- if handwraps are equipped, certain feats/skills/enhancements add modifiers to damage or other properties to the handwraps (or the character)

Let me give you a little insight about this. "Handwraps adding values on top of unarmed is more faithful to PnP unarmed strikes" everytime you speak about what you personally think would have been better for monk unarmed you mention how it would be faithful to PnP. That's my problem. Don't even mention PnP in a discussion about handwraps or unarmed in general in ddo. The addition of handwraps to the game COMPELTELY changes the dynamic of how the monk class works for unarmed. And also you're wrong, they did NOT have the choice to make handwraps a weapon because as I just explained, unarmed bonus damage is tied to the monks level and current number of unarmed strikes feats. This way of increasing the damage of the strikes could only have been done back then by NOT letting handwraps be weapons, since weapons would need a base damage and crit profile. It was not possible with the old unarmed damage system to make the handwraps "change" their base damage for each monk differently. Maybe breaking it down for you would help.

Old monks used to have a die progression that looked something like this:
1d6
1d8
1d10
2d6
2d8
2d10

With this system each time a monk gained unarmed strikes from their granted class feats their unarmed damage base would increase. Old weapons had to be given a base value on the weapon itself, so in the case of handwraps their base damage would have been the lowest possible, or 1d3 because of non-monks. The ONLY WAY to do what you are suggesting to have been such a simple and easy way to solve an issue that wasn't even created yet would have been to code the handwraps to change their base damage for each unarmed strike feat the player had learned.

For perspective that would mean they would have to add the base damage for every tier to each and every handwrap in the game, make a modifier that would have to check the players feats everytime it was equipped, and properly shift this damage to one of 7 possible base damage numbers. Now you may not think this is a lot, but it is. And something like that would have caused WAY MORE ISSUES than it would have solved, which is none. It wouldn't have solved any issues because the only problem with unarmed and handwraps was created in the players minds. While some bugs and the lack of greensteel wraps was possibly a direct result of this change, their overall use was not crippled by any means, ToD rings were still extremely powerful and useful, and a lot of handwrap bugs actually created benefits for the monks.