PDA

View Full Version : normal X bow or repeater



Noleta
02-11-2014, 08:36 AM
I notice the tool tip ingame says that the enhacement doesnt apply to repeating xbows but every one seems to use them, why is this? Just looking for some clerification

Panzermeyer
02-11-2014, 01:22 PM
I notice the tool tip ingame says that the enhacement doesnt apply to repeating xbows but every one seems to use them, why is this? Just looking for some clerification

Some of the crossbow bonuses do apply to repeaters, just usually not quite as much.

People use repeaters cause even though you don't get the bonuses with the three shots you still end up out performing in damage.

I am not looking at specific numbers or anything but I do remember things like there is a place that has +1 for damage on regular Crossbows but not repeating crossbows. You will still get more DPS from a weapon that fires 3 bolts in the time it takes another to fire 1 maybe 2 bolts with a +1 value to damage.

Memnir
02-11-2014, 02:00 PM
Regardless of bonuses - repeaters are just simply better. Go with those, you won't regret it.

cdbd3rd
02-11-2014, 02:03 PM
Regardless of bonuses - repeaters are just simply better. Go with those, you won't regret it.


And play with the Great Xbows some, too. They're far from the uberest of weapons, but kinda fun sometimes. Landing a mob on it's tush with a crossbow bolt. Heh.


...or maybe I'm just easily amused some days.

Memnir
02-11-2014, 02:28 PM
And play with the Great Xbows some, too. They're far from the uberest of weapons, but kinda fun sometimes. Landing a mob on it's tush with a crossbow bolt. Heh. One of my best builds was a GXB user. :) But, it took a lot of gear and know-how to make it work.
But yeah - even a GXB is better then regular xbows, imho.

unbongwah
02-11-2014, 02:42 PM
And play with the Great Xbows some, too.
I'm curious if anyone's tried, say, a rog 18 / arty 2 great xbow build w/Lacerating Shots and Expert Builder (+1x crits); the arty splash adds an extra feat (Rapid Reload), RAs, some BE bonuses. Say, 34 APs into Mechanic (Expert Builder + Rapid Fire) and 31 APs into Assassin (SA Training, Killer, Lethality), leaving 15 APs to spread elsewhere.

I would expect repeaters to still be better in the long run, but it could be a fun variant to mess with.

inspiredunease
02-14-2014, 10:14 AM
These threads pop up once every few months/years, usually bemoaning the state of GCB compared to HRC/LRC, but especially complaining about the lack of named GCBs, which I totally agree with. However, I'm wondering whether they're worth revisiting, at least for a flavor build, in light of the addition of doubleshot and the level 18 mechanic core since U19. I know everyone is basically going to say needle > everything else, but let's just take a look at it compared to an alchemical GCB (We'll go with triple earth for comparison purposes), which I suspect is probably the best bet, even over greensteel).

Crit profile (including enhancements, destinies, IC feat etc):
Needle: 17-18/x3, 19-20/x4
Alchemical: 15-18/x3, 19-20/x4

Average damage per shot:
Needle: 2.5[d12] = (2.5 + 30)/2 = 16.25
Alchemical: 2[2d8] = (4 + 32)/2 = 18

Now obviously I'm aware that the repeating xbow fires off 3 per pull of the trigger, but it also has a slower attack rate (at least according to this thread: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/418464-Make-Great-Crossbows-Viable), and GCB is affected by doubleshot 3 times as much as the repeaters (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/420383-Doubleshot-Repeating-xbows). Again, I'm aware that needle pulls this back a bit with the ranged alacrity bonus, but you can combat this somewhat by using abbot quiver.

Given that I think we can stack up 10 (tier 5 mechanic) + 10 (doubleshot epic destiny feat) + 3 (elf skill enhancement) + 5 flurry item = 28 percent chance of a second bolt (again, I do find it deeply irritating that with U19 they added doubleshot as an item enhancement, and then only stuck the higher tiers of it on the trapsmith's repeater. I really think that thing should have been a GCB. If it had been, we could have stacked on another 4% , but such is life). Repeaters given the same set up would only be getting 10.3 percent chance of second shot (on the first shot of 3).

Blaaaagh, starting to get lost in bad math here, as this is based on too much conjecture, but I would tend to think that the gap is a little narrower now than it used to be. I might LR my pure 20 rogue at some point when I have time to test this, he still has his CiTW box, but I'm not sure I could face the grind for picking up an alchem GCB.

RD2play
02-14-2014, 10:26 AM
enhancements give +1+2+1+2= 6 dmg for non-repeaters, only +2 for repeaters but with 3 shots -> 2*3 = 6dmg. So the enhancements grand similar bonus to all crossbows. but since the repeater shoots 3 bolts per reload it is considered better.

rimble
02-14-2014, 10:42 AM
enhancements give +1+2+1+2= 6 dmg for non-repeaters, only +2 for repeaters but with 3 shots -> 2*3 = 6dmg. So the enhancements grand similar bonus to all crossbows. but since the repeater shoots 3 bolts per reload it is considered better.

With too many 'on hit' damage effects that aren't affected by crits, there's just no way for the slow big hits of a GCB to keep up with the speed of a Repeater. The 2d8 + 2d10 of the Glass Cannon Rune Arm is not improved at all by the higher Crit Profile of the GCB, nor Elemental Weapons, nor whatever other non-Burst Weapon/Ammo effects you have. I think you would need an exhorbitant amount of base multipliable damage to be able to keep up--but I'm not going to figure out the maths on that.

inspiredunease
02-15-2014, 03:33 PM
With too many 'on hit' damage effects that aren't affected by crits, there's just no way for the slow big hits of a GCB to keep up with the speed of a Repeater. The 2d8 + 2d10 of the Glass Cannon Rune Arm is not improved at all by the higher Crit Profile of the GCB, nor Elemental Weapons, nor whatever other non-Burst Weapon/Ammo effects you have. I think you would need an exhorbitant amount of base multipliable damage to be able to keep up--but I'm not going to figure out the maths on that.

I agree, it's not incalculable, it's just not worth it - repeaters are so far ahead it's not even funny - but I think the gap is narrower, and in certain situations the GCB looks like it could be a fun option to have. Unfortunately, mechanic is just not worth specifying into or even viable as a back-up ranged option, as expert builder costs 31 ap in the mechanic tree, which is otherwise pretty useless to either an assassin or staff build, Which you'd be pretty much locked into, as two levels of another class aren't going to create that drastic effect on the toon Adrenaline could be fun with it though.

pyrus566
12-25-2014, 09:09 PM
I agree, it's not incalculable, it's just not worth it - repeaters are so far ahead it's not even funny - but I think the gap is narrower, and in certain situations the GCB looks like it could be a fun option to have. Unfortunately, mechanic is just not worth specifying into or even viable as a back-up ranged option, as expert builder costs 31 ap in the mechanic tree, which is otherwise pretty useless to either an assassin or staff build, Which you'd be pretty much locked into, as two levels of another class aren't going to create that drastic effect on the toon Adrenaline could be fun with it though.

Dear All,

I read through the various posts in this thread and agree with what has been said generally. I did my own testing and confirmed for myself what other people have observed.

There have been some great posts and very informative posts that all pointed towards RHxB exceeding GxB but there were some people who were suggesting the GxB could be superior.

These are my observations and confirm I believe what others have said.

(1) Don't bother hasting the Heavy Repeating Crossbow, either by scroll or Fighter Haste Boost or Bard Double Shot bonus, because there is no improvement in Rate of Fire

(2) Hasting a Great Crossbow and a plain Heavy Crossbow does result in a significant improvement in Rate of Fire, about 12%-15%

(3) I noticed the Fighter Haste Boost and Bard Double Shot bonus share the same timer and consistently turn out the same rate of fire for the same percentage point increase for Great Crossbows and plain old Heavy Crossbows

(3) Endless Fusilade! Testing here was an eye opener!

(a) Endless Fusilade resulted in 30 bolts in 6 seconds for the Heavy Repeating Crossbow
(b) Endless Fusilade resulted in 26 bolts in 6 seconds for the plain Heavy Crossbow
(c) Endless Fusilade resulted in 22 bolts in 6 seconds for the Great Crossbow.

NUTSHELL: Endless Fusilade delivers significant increase to Rate of Fire to Repeating Heavy Crossbow but Endless Fusilade pushes the Great Crossbow miles in front once you consider the damage output. Below are approximate Damage Per Minute (DPM) calculations based on a 6 second EF

DPM RHxB 3 x d10 x 300 averages out to 1650.

DPM GxB 1 x 2d8 x 220 averages out to 1980.

I appreciate these simple calculations do not take into account the following;

(a) Critical profile
(b) Critical damage multiplier
(c) Weapon effects
(d) Weapon enhancements
(e) Enemy resistances
(f) Enemy weaknesses
(g) I did not extensively test the light versions of repeating or plain crossbow extensively except to confirm the rate of fire in the few tests I preformed were the same as the heavy versions
(h) I used no double shot weapons or flurry armour
(i) I did not test a ranged alacrity magic item
(j) The remark regarding HASTE may change if Rapid Shot and/or Rapid Reload is dropped because I fear they may have a cannibalising effect where one or the other delivers an improvement but two or more together do not stack, I am about to test this out
(k) I did a test with a HASTE potion and the result was so high I thought I made a mistake but only had a single HASTE potion, this is worth investigating
(l) I have not tested the Rate of Fire with RHxB versus GxB with all ranged weapons feats that improve Rate of Fire removed, I plan doing this to see if my results confirm what previous posters have seen


The testing was a Level 7 Artificer 4, Bard 2 , Fighter 1 Human with proficiency in all crossbows plus the artificer Rapid Reload Feat the additional Rapid Shot Feat.

Hasting was either Fighter Haste Boost 30% or Haste scroll. I tested Bard Double Shot Chance at 30% also.



LESSON FOR THE ARTIFICERS: When you want to pour down some basic damage use Endless Fusilade and a Great Crossbow, now who was the person who spoke about the Thunderforged Great Crossbow? I think that poster was onto something.

What do you think?

*****POST SCRIPT: I found this information below after posting above******


droid327 droid327 is offline
Community Member

Join Date
Jun 2006
Posts
3,011
Default
Pros for GXB: KB on vorpal. Uses less ammo :P

Pros for Repeater: better DPS in all situations (even with crit threat maxed out...3 hits beats occasional spike damage). Triples benefits of per-hit effects like elemental damage, weapon enchantments, procs, Sneak Attacks, etc.

The only time you'd want a GXB, now that I think about it, would be if Endless Fusillade allows a GXB to fire at the same rate as a repeater - that might be pretty awesome, if thats how it works

Oxarhamar
01-08-2015, 02:19 AM
nvm

Oxarhamar
01-08-2015, 02:48 AM
Dear All,

I read through the various posts in this thread and agree with what has been said generally. I did my own testing and confirmed for myself what other people have observed.

There have been some great posts and very informative posts that all pointed towards RHxB exceeding GxB but there were some people who were suggesting the GxB could be superior.

These are my observations and confirm I believe what others have said.

(1) Don't bother hasting the Heavy Repeating Crossbow, either by scroll or Fighter Haste Boost or Bard Double Shot bonus, because there is no improvement in Rate of Fire

(2) Hasting a Great Crossbow and a plain Heavy Crossbow does result in a significant improvement in Rate of Fire, about 12%-15%

(3) I noticed the Fighter Haste Boost and Bard Double Shot bonus share the same timer and consistently turn out the same rate of fire for the same percentage point increase for Great Crossbows and plain old Heavy Crossbows

(3) Endless Fusilade! Testing here was an eye opener!

(a) Endless Fusilade resulted in 30 bolts in 6 seconds for the Heavy Repeating Crossbow
(b) Endless Fusilade resulted in 26 bolts in 6 seconds for the plain Heavy Crossbow
(c) Endless Fusilade resulted in 22 bolts in 6 seconds for the Great Crossbow.

NUTSHELL: Endless Fusilade delivers significant increase to Rate of Fire to Repeating Heavy Crossbow but Endless Fusilade pushes the Great Crossbow miles in front once you consider the damage output. Below are approximate Damage Per Minute (DPM) calculations based on a 6 second EF

DPM RHxB 3 x d10 x 300 averages out to 1650.

DPM GxB 1 x 2d8 x 220 averages out to 1980.

I appreciate these simple calculations do not take into account the following;

(a) Critical profile
(b) Critical damage multiplier
(c) Weapon effects
(d) Weapon enhancements
(e) Enemy resistances
(f) Enemy weaknesses
(g) I did not extensively test the light versions of repeating or plain crossbow extensively except to confirm the rate of fire in the few tests I preformed were the same as the heavy versions
(h) I used no double shot weapons or flurry armour
(i) I did not test a ranged alacrity magic item
(j) The remark regarding HASTE may change if Rapid Shot and/or Rapid Reload is dropped because I fear they may have a cannibalising effect where one or the other delivers an improvement but two or more together do not stack, I am about to test this out
(k) I did a test with a HASTE potion and the result was so high I thought I made a mistake but only had a single HASTE potion, this is worth investigating
(l) I have not tested the Rate of Fire with RHxB versus GxB with all ranged weapons feats that improve Rate of Fire removed, I plan doing this to see if my results confirm what previous posters have seen


The testing was a Level 7 Artificer 4, Bard 2 , Fighter 1 Human with proficiency in all crossbows plus the artificer Rapid Reload Feat the additional Rapid Shot Feat.

Hasting was either Fighter Haste Boost 30% or Haste scroll. I tested Bard Double Shot Chance at 30% also.



LESSON FOR THE ARTIFICERS: When you want to pour down some basic damage use Endless Fusilade and a Great Crossbow, now who was the person who spoke about the Thunderforged Great Crossbow? I think that poster was onto something.

What do you think?

*****POST SCRIPT: I found this information below after posting above******


droid327 droid327 is offline
Community Member

Join Date
Jun 2006
Posts
3,011
Default
Pros for GXB: KB on vorpal. Uses less ammo :P

Pros for Repeater: better DPS in all situations (even with crit threat maxed out...3 hits beats occasional spike damage). Triples benefits of per-hit effects like elemental damage, weapon enchantments, procs, Sneak Attacks, etc.

The only time you'd want a GXB, now that I think about it, would be if Endless Fusillade allows a GXB to fire at the same rate as a repeater - that might be pretty awesome, if thats how it works

Have to disagree about haste & heavy repeaters. Both the haste spell & haste boost speed the rate of fire. As well as Doubleshot which definitely increases number of bolts sent down range.

Most noticeably haste boost is the best way to stack up your blitz in LD when you kick it off with a repeater.