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ThunderCraft
02-03-2014, 09:54 PM
Could someone give build advice for an Eldritch Knight w/ Rogue Splash to fit my playstyle? I've not played Eldritch Knight before. (And I've not played a wizard since about 2009 or 2010.)

I nearly always play with a friend and one of us is the trapmonkey, while the other is the healer. As such, this will need to be capable of handling the traps and locks, at least on heroic levels.

With a high enough INT, would 2 levels of Rogue be enough? If not, how many? I'm hoping the Evasion and a bit extra sneak attack damage would help keep it playable for late game stuff.

I have 32-point build and all races except half-elf and half-orc. Though, what I would prefer is for this to be Drow. (I might consider a Shadar-kai, however.)

Another preference is for this build to concentrate mostly on Two Weapon Fighting.

Also, instead of adding to strength, I want to concentrate on DEX and INT and use the Weapon Finesse feat.

rayworks
02-03-2014, 09:57 PM
I've seen some threads on taking 12 wiz/6 something or other/2 rogue(or monk) with the eldritch knight. Might want to search for those. I was thinking of 12 wiz (palemaster wraith)/6 fighter/2 rogue or monk and playing it as a self-buffing, self-healing short sword vegematic. Haven't done it yet, but its on my next life or so list.

As for your rogue question, I'm currently running a 15 wiz/2 rogue palemaster and the 2 levels of rogue is fine for traps. You'll want to pay attention to your gear, so get the best spot, search, trap, lock items you can. And don't forget UMD. It comes in handy. Always take the first rogue level at 1 for the skill points. I took my 2nd rogue level at 13, right after I got 6th level spells for my wiz. Some people wait longer, some shorter, I did it because I wanted evasion at that point.

ThunderCraft
02-03-2014, 11:33 PM
Thanks for the advice and input.

Something else I should mention is that I absolutely abhor the idea of using the Palemaster enhancement tree. (I realize the benefits and how everyone seems to prefer it. I just don't like the idea of using necromancy. Also, it wouldn't work well when my friend is a Cleric with Healing Aura.) And, yes, I'll be missing out on some good stuff, like the ability to self-heal. I've been told that Palemasters are quite capable of going melee when the need arises, whereas melee is not recommended for most other Wizard builds.

That leaves me with the other spell schools like evocation, enchantment, and conjuration. And I'm really not sure which of those I should focus on (i.e., Spell Focus feats) for this build. Since a lot of my feats will be devoted to Weapon Finesse and the Two-Weapon Fighting line, I won't have much to spare elsewhere.

I see some choose to go Conjuration for heightened Web and cloud (acid) spells. Others go with Evocation for fire and ice spells. And still others go with Enchantment for things like Hold Monster and Otto's Dance. But I understand that the more one multiclasses away from a pure Wizard build, the less effective your spells will be in terms of DC and spell power.

Thing is, I'm not sure a 2 Rogue / 18 Wiz Eldritch Knight would be very effective in melee without dipping into fighter or something. (Though, I read that many get in the habit of dropping web and AOE spells before they engage in melee.) On the other hand, I have to wonder if 12 wiz/6 fighter/2 rogue would have enough spell DC for the spells to be effective? (For one, enchantment spells would be impractical for such a build.)

Right now I'm leaning towards 2 Rogue / 1 Fighter / 17 Wiz. But I'm still undecided.

Wanesa
02-04-2014, 02:09 AM
I reached epic with Azaxe on Rog18/Wiz2 as Eldritch Assassin. Two levels of Wiz is enough to reach Shield and Mage armor (to get psychical resistance and +4 AC) pernament +15 HP and Invis SLA (1SP). Rogue can also benefit from martial training and w+s mastery for 3AP.

Neither Assassinate nor Eldritch Strike breaks sneak + invis

Lanhelin
02-04-2014, 06:24 AM
That leaves me with the other spell schools like evocation, enchantment, and conjuration. And I'm really not sure which of those I should focus on (i.e., Spell Focus feats) for this build. Since a lot of my feats will be devoted to Weapon Finesse and the Two-Weapon Fighting line, I won't have much to spare elsewhere.

Right now I'm leaning towards 2 Rogue / 1 Fighter / 17 Wiz. But I'm still undecided.

High DC is only needed when you want to either cc or instakill as often as possible on failed saving rolls. But even without the highest DC the mobs from time to time will lose their roll too. I personally would consider DC for an Evocation focused Wiz not that important, because most Evo Spells will do at least half their effect on a successful saving roll instead of nothing like a CC or Instakill spell.

Take a look at the Wizard Spell List (http://ddowiki.com/page/Sorcerer_/_Wizard_spells) to decide whether reaching T9 spells really is worth it for your build. The most beneficial spells you'll probably get from T1 to T7 (min Wiz 13), but even T7 offers not that much, also the Level 12 Archmage Core SLA (http://ddowiki.com/page/Archmage_enhancements) is far more beneficial for a melee Wizard than the Level 18 one, that's why many builds have 12 Wiz Levels only.

You already said that you will take the Weapon Finesse and TWF line. Then maybe Rogue 3 / Wiz 17 is a better choice for the second Assassin Core Enhancement "Dagger in the Back" which allows Dex to Damage for all the Weapons affected by Weapon Finesse (except Wraps/Unarmed).

Failedlegend
02-04-2014, 09:37 AM
oops double post srri

Saekee
02-04-2014, 09:46 AM
I reached epic with Azaxe on Rog18/Wiz2 as Eldritch Assassin. Two levels of Wiz is enough to reach Shield and Mage armor (to get psychical resistance and +4 AC) pernament +15 HP and Invis SLA (1SP). Rogue can also benefit from martial training and w+s mastery for 3AP.

Neither Assassinate nor Eldritch Strike breaks sneak + invis

This is a great suggestion since both use INT! the other posters here also have great advice. All depends so much on your playstyle, of course.

I have a ranger 14 (tempest)/rogue 5/ EK 1. I took the tier 5 in rogue for knife specialization so there is no need for weapon finesse, especially since tempest gives it to you for all light weapons. You can easily hit a dex in the mid 30s before heavy buffs. You can also have a good ranged attack although your Dex will not add damage to the bow stuff (unless you go elf, but remember that you will be enhancement starved). My style is to be stealthy, easily invisible (1 sp gets me 2 min with extend spell feat from Wizard), full TWF and ranged from ranger, etc. I do not bother with assassinate since it is too low. Traps are ok since your primary stat is Dex, whereas trappers need INT.
I do not recommend it for high level Epics though unless you go elf for ranged burst damage (elf will give you other goodies too).

Light armors & Max Dex Bonus:
Max Dex is also Max Dodge. Hence this is a dual issue.
Please note that this list only shows these two attributes. The armors have other stats, like the Marilith Chain's DR and seeker, that are appealing depending on one's gear and build:

Select Named Armors, farmable:
Parasitic: Armor Bonus +19 (+3 from Rough Hide), Max Dex: 9 (min level 14) <==for heroics, this is the easy to acquire and best AC bonus, plus Xoriat bonus
Breastplate of Vol: Armor Bonus +16, Max Dex: 7 (min level 14) <==terribly low max dex
Scales of Surety: Armor Bonus +13, Max Dex: 12 (min level 16) Emerald Claw Nugget end reward
Rakshasa Hide: Armor Bonus +12 (+3 from Rough Hide), Max Dex: 13 (min level 16)
Snakeskin Vest: Armor Bonus +11, Max Dex: 13 (min level 8)
Dragonscale: Armor Bonus +11, Max Dex: 12 (min level 14)
Crystal Cove T3 Duelist Leathers: Armor Bonus: +10, Max Dex: 15 (min level 16)
Hero's Leathers: Armor Bonus +10, Max Dex: 11 (min level 16)

Raid Loot:
Breastplate of Destruction: Armor Bonus +19, Max Dex: 8 (min level 14), Hound of Xoriat
Demon Scale Armor: Armor Bonus +13, Max Dex: 8 (min level 12), Zawabi's Revenge
Marilith Chain: Armor Bonus +12, Max Dex: 9 (min level 12), Zawabi's Revenge
Kundarak Delving Suit: Armor Bonus +12, Max Dex: 10 (min level 10), Plane of Night

Lootgen:
Spiritcraft Leather: AB: Armor Bonus 7 (+5?=12?) Max Dex: 14 (min level 16)
Spiritcraft Chain: Armor Bonus +9 (+5?=14?), Max Dex: 11 (min level 16)
these can be disjuncted and crafted

Mithral armor: Increases Max Dex by 2, -3 armor check penalty

Suffix:
Nimbleness: armor check penalty reduced by 2
Greater Nimbleness: Max Dex +2, armor check penalty reduced by 4 (can be Cannith Crafted)
Superior Nimbleness: Max Dex +4, armor check penalty reduced by 4
(also Epic Nimbleness: Max Dex +6, armor check penalty reduced by 4)

with the right starting lootgen, supposedly one could craft a +5 Spiritcrafted Mithral Chain shirt of Greater Nimbleness, armor bonus of +14 and max dex of 16

Gear that Increases Max Dex bonus to armor:
ML 12 blue Augment: +1 Armor Mastery
ML 20 blue Augmetn: +2 Armor Mastery
Daggertooth's Belt: +2 Armor Mastery, ML 12, 13 and 14

Feats and Enhancements that increase Max Dex bonus:
Feat: Mobility: +2. This can be crafted onto either armor or even rings, boots, and trinkets for its benefits, although you should take this feat anyway.

Failedlegend
02-04-2014, 10:16 AM
Could someone give build advice for an Eldritch Knight w/ Rogue Splash to fit my playstyle? I've not played Eldritch Knight before. (And I've not played a wizard since about 2009 or 2010.)

Feel free to try it out since it's an enhancement tree and can easily be specced out but unfortunately it's currently an incredibly underwhelming Tree...on the other hand it's a nice way to pick up light armor/martial weapon prof for a few pts. also spellsword is GREAT for when u run out of mana it's drain is about the same as Echoes of power so it makes u slightly less useless when out of mana on a Wizard (Sorcs of course are better off just using SLAs)

My Wiz has these in EK

Eldritch Strike (core 1 can't not take...rarely use very expensive) - 1AP
Toughness - +15 HP 3AP
Improved Mage Armor - +10% AC 3AP (My Wiz is a tank, saves me a spell slot too)
Improved Shield - +10 PRR 3AP (again Tank, +1 spell slot)
Spellsword: Cold - For Emergency no mana situations

I'm probably going to drop Improved Mage Armor/Shield they both cost 3AP and I could use it far better elsewhere...I'll keep Toughness of course, also yes I did go Full EK for quite a long time...I kept wanting to love it...never happened its just a massive mana sink.



I nearly always play with a friend and one of us is the trapmonkey, while the other is the healer. As such, this will need to be capable of handling the traps and locks, at least on heroic levels.

Alot of people are going to tell u trap skills are not "needed" but imo it makes life 100x easier especially in a static group/duo so is having a front-liner (see "tank") although healing is less important as u can just drag around clerics hirelings.



With a high enough INT, would 2 levels of Rogue be enough? If not, how many? I'm hoping the Evasion and a bit extra sneak attack damage would help keep it playable for late game stuff.

I have 32-point build and all races except half-elf and half-orc. Though, what I would prefer is for this to be Drow. (I might consider a Shadar-kai, however.)

Another preference is for this build to concentrate mostly on Two Weapon Fighting.

Also, instead of adding to strength, I want to concentrate on DEX and INT and use the Weapon Finesse feat.

2 rogue levels are exactly how many u need just be sure to take Rogue at Lvl 1 than ur second level around 9-11 (try to get a +2 int tome before ur second rogue level) a Con/Int based normal Wizard18/Rogue2 does it just fine so as a Dex/Int Based Wiz18/Rogue2 u even better off this is of course assuming u go elf (for dex to damage) which is a great idea anyways because Nothing is Hidden is so useful for a trapsmith. Raiper is your best bet for this. Unfortunately this doesn't work for Drow.



Something else I should mention is that I absolutely abhor the idea of using the Palemaster enhancement tree. (I realize the benefits and how everyone seems to prefer it. I just don't like the idea of using necromancy. Also, it wouldn't work well when my friend is a Cleric with Healing Aura.) And, yes, I'll be missing out on some good stuff, like the ability to self-heal. I've been told that Palemasters are quite capable of going melee when the need arises, whereas melee is not recommended for most other Wizard builds.

Correction it's not "optimal" if ur skilled enough you should be able to handle it as a non-PM especially if ur cleric buddy is a good healer...that said popping death aura in undead form makes u very hard to kill (especially in Wraith Form) and to be fair u don't actually need to focus on PM or use Necromancy to pick that up.

Deathlesss Vigor - +30HP 6AP
Zombie Shroud - don't use pre-req 1AP (6+1 = 7)
Negative Energy Conduit - +10% Neg Healing (7+3 = 10)
Vamp Shroud - again once u get Wraith u will never use 1AP (this is really bad design btw devs...10+1 = 11)
+1 Intelligence 2AP (11+2 = 13)
Bone Armor -2-3% Dodge% 2-3 AP (13+2 = 15)
Wraith Form - This is what ur after +20 Balance, Healed by neg energy, +100% Fort, 25% Incorp, +20 Move Silently (this +invis = awesome sneaking ability), Ghost Touch, Featherfall

That leaves you with 64-65AP left to spend in AM

As for your cleric friend he/she can slot Harm and heal u just fine if they don't mind doing so...also u can always turn ur form off. If you don't go PM talk to ur cleric buddy about picking up a level or 2 of Paladin or Fighter so they can pick up intim and than they should be able to take the heat off of than both of you can wade into melee together



That leaves me with the other spell schools like evocation, enchantment, and conjuration. And I'm really not sure which of those I should focus on (i.e., Spell Focus feats) for this build. Since a lot of my feats will be devoted to Weapon Finesse and the Two-Weapon Fighting line, I won't have much to spare elsewhere.

Luckily Wizards get an bunch of extra feats (Wiz18/Rogue 2 get 4) so it's not hard to fit in a mix...but no ur not going to have as many melee feats as a fighter nor as many caster feats as a normal wizard. That said the trade of is worth it if you like the Gish playstyle




I see some choose to go Conjuration for heightened Web and cloud (acid) spells. Others go with Evocation for fire and ice spells. And still others go with Enchantment for things like Hold Monster and Otto's Dance. But I understand that the more one multiclasses away from a pure Wizard build, the less effective your spells will be in terms of DC and spell power.

As an 18/2 build u will barely notice the difference in DC if u go with a 12/6/2 or similar build ur never going to get a usable DC and ur spell casting will be highly limited but it DOES work...Ice storm for example has no save. My current Wiz is a PM12/Stalwart6/Rogue2 (Wiz/Fighter) but it's pre-enhancement change and I'm ETRing into an 18/2 build soon



Thing is, I'm not sure a 2 Rogue / 18 Wiz Eldritch Knight would be very effective in melee without dipping into fighter or something. Right now I'm leaning towards 2 Rogue / 1 Fighter / 17 Wiz. But I'm still undecided.

Fighter would net u 1 feat, armor prof and martial weapon prof but as an elf u get repair prof aniwais or non-elf can pick it up in EK with a veri small advancement...u will be able to fight just fine without fighter



(Though, I read that many get in the habit of dropping web and AOE spells before they engage in melee.)

It's so much fun :) I've made a Wiz18/Arti2 before as well to use a repeating heavy X-Bow (+Shadowdancer ED FTW) same idea as melee except u strafe around ur AOEs instead of inside them...fun stuff...somewhat less optimal than melee though (I'm sure an Elven Wizard AA Bow User works better but I can't stand the slow RoF on Bows)




On the other hand, I have to wonder if 12 wiz/6 fighter/2 rogue would have enough spell DC for the spells to be effective?

No u would be limited to no save/no SR spells like ice storm...there's not mani




You already said that you will take the Weapon Finesse and TWF line. Then maybe Rogue 3 / Wiz 17 is a better choice for the second Assassin Core Enhancement "Dagger in the Back" which allows Dex to Damage for all the Weapons affected by Weapon Finesse (except Wraps/Unarmed).

It's easier to go Elf and use rapiers the enhancements are great for a Wizard Trapsmith.

ThunderCraft
02-04-2014, 11:18 PM
Wow! Thanks for the advice and suggestions. This is really helpful.

After thinking things over, I feel I'd prefer a build that uses DEX for damage, which means I'd either have to take 3 Rogue levels for the "Dagger in the Back" enhancement (like Lanhelin suggested) or go Elf and aim for the Aerenal Grace tier 4 enhancement for rapiers. This way, I could concentrate on improving DEX, INT, and CON.

My reasoning is that spreading out stat distribution more-or-less evenly between 4 or 5 stats would - IMO - be spreading them pretty thin. The alternative (to the above) would be using STR for damage. And I'd need good INT as a primarily Wizard toon. And I could not exactly sacrifice too much in either CON or DEX if I planned to fight melee (as opposed to primarily sitting in the back either slinging spells or shooting some sort of bow). And if I splashed something like Monk or Druid, then I'd need at least something in WIS.

Also, I wanted to see if I could do this with a Shadar-kai. It's nice to start at level 15, esp. since I wanted to start some good toons on servers I don't normally play on. The starting gear would work nicely. And I think a few of the racial enhancements would mesh rather well. I'd like to see if the EK damage bonuses get added to the blade whip.

With this in mind, I played around with the latest Character Planner.
My first plan was going 8 levels of Rogue with 12 Wizard:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Zarlah Melanthi
Level 20 True Neutral Shadar-Kai Female
(8 Rogue \ 12 Wizard)
Hit Points: 220
Spell Points: 650
BAB: 12\12\17\22
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 16
Will: 9

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 8 8
Dexterity 18 23
Constitution 15 15
Intelligence 17 20
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 7 7

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 8 10
Bluff 2 2
Concentration 2 11
Diplomacy -2 -2
Disable Device 7 28
Haggle 2 2
Heal -1 -1
Hide 8 23
Intimidate -2 -2
Jump -1 -1
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 8 23
Open Lock 8 24
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 3 5
Search 7 26
Spellcraft 3 27
Spot 3 20
Swim -1 -1
Tumble 8 10
Use Magic Device 2 18

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell

Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 4 (Wizard)

Level 5 (Rogue)

Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse

Level 7 (Wizard)

Level 8 (Rogue)

Level 9 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Augment Summoning
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Defense

Level 10 (Wizard)

Level 11 (Rogue)

Level 12 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 13 (Wizard)

Level 14 (Rogue)

Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 16 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell

Level 17 (Rogue)

Level 18 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 19 (Wizard)

Level 20 (Rogue)

Note1: I may get more tomes later. But, starting out on a new server, I'll have trouble getting this much.

I see that the Shadar-kai's +2 bonus to DEX comes in very handy for this build. I didn't have to sacrifice CON for it, either. (Unlike Elf or Drow.) And I don't think I'll even notice the -2 to CHA. (I guess another race that'd work well would be Halfling, with +2 DEX and -2 STR. Though, it'd be easy to get encumbered.)

There are plenty of skill points for what I want. But it feels a bit feat-starved. I almost always have Augment Summoning on my toons since my friend and I usually have a large party of hirelings and summons. But I might consider swapping it at level 20. I'm not sure if Two Weapon Defense is worth it. The +1 to AC seems insignificant, especially for this build. Though, the 5 PR is nice, especially if it stacks with the PR from the "Improved Shield" EK enhacement. And I wonder if I could pick something better than a second Toughness feat.

The extra rogue levels give more Sneak Attack damage and extra trapfinding/smithing stuff. I also get Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge, which is nice. It's also enough to open up some rogue enhancements like Targeting Sights, which comes with the light repeating xbow proficiency, which I like. But I hesitate to sacrifice some feats to get Rapid Reload and Precise Shot, which would make that a more useful alternative combat mode.

My next plan was seeing what it'd be like with 3 Rogue and 5 Ranger:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Zarlah Melanthi
Level 20 True Neutral Shadar-Kai Female
(3 Rogue \ 5 Ranger \ 12 Wizard)
Hit Points: 230
Spell Points: 685
BAB: 13\13\18\23
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 17
Will: 9

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 8 8
Dexterity 18 23
Constitution 15 15
Intelligence 17 20
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 7 7

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 8 10
Bluff 2 2
Concentration 2 11
Diplomacy -2 -2
Disable Device 7 28
Haggle 2 2
Heal -1 -1
Hide 8 21
Intimidate -2 -2
Jump -1 -1
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 8 21
Open Lock 8 25
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 3 5
Search 7 23
Spellcraft 3 28
Spot 3 17
Swim -1 -1
Tumble 8 10
Use Magic Device 2 15

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell

Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse

Level 4 (Wizard)

Level 5 (Ranger)

Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Defense

Level 7 (Wizard)

Level 8 (Rogue)

Level 9 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Augment Summoning
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 10 (Ranger)

Level 11 (Wizard)

Level 12 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 13 (Wizard)

Level 14 (Wizard)

Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 16 (Wizard)

Level 17 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell

Level 18 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell

Level 19 (Wizard)

Level 20 (Wizard)

It's a shame that I can't fit another Ranger level as that would give Manyshot and Improved Two Weapon Fighting, making bows useful and saving me a feat. But I need 3 Rogue for "Dagger in the Back" and anything less than 12 Wizard would hurt.

I am pleasantly surprised by how many Martial weapon proficiencies Ranger has and how the BAB is identical with Fighter. It's enough to get two Favored Enemies and I get Two Weapon Fighting and Diehard for free. (Though, I don't think of the latter as very important.)

My third plan was to see what it'd be like with Fighter levels instead of Ranger:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Zarlah Melanthi
Level 20 True Neutral Shadar-Kai Female
(5 Fighter \ 3 Rogue \ 12 Wizard)
Hit Points: 240
Spell Points: 650
BAB: 13\13\18\23
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 14
Will: 9

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 8 8
Dexterity 18 23
Constitution 15 15
Intelligence 17 20
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 7 7

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 8 10
Bluff 2 2
Concentration 4 7
Diplomacy -2 -2
Disable Device 7 27
Haggle 2 2
Heal -1 -1
Hide 4 6
Intimidate -2 -2
Jump -1 -1
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 4 6
Open Lock 8 23
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 3 5
Search 7 24
Spellcraft 5 28
Spot 3 18
Swim -1 -1
Tumble 8 10
Use Magic Device 2 8

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell

Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse

Level 4 (Wizard)

Level 5 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Defense

Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 7 (Wizard)

Level 8 (Rogue)

Level 9 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Augment Summoning
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons

Level 10 (Fighter)

Level 11 (Wizard)

Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons

Level 13 (Wizard)

Level 14 (Wizard)

Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 16 (Wizard)

Level 17 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell

Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell

Level 19 (Wizard)

Level 20 (Wizard)

This does not feel quite as feat starved, as the 5 Fighter levels come with 3 Class Feats. However, I really wanted Weapon Specialization, which has Weapon Focus as a prerequisite. I always thought Weapon Focus was more-or-less a waste as a feat as it just gives a +1 to hit.

When I compare it with the build with Ranger levels I see I basically traded a free "Two Weapon Fighting" and two Favored Enemies (at +4 damage vs. said enemies) for 3 extra feats, which I spent into "Two Weapon Fighting" and two feats which add up to a +1 to hit and +2 to damage against all enemies. As such, I don't see much difference in terms of feats or BAB. (BTW: Was I wise in choosing Undead and Evil Outsiders? I figured that this is mostly what I'd be fighting in late game, especially with the Shroud and so forth.)

The switch to fighter levels did come at a huge cost, though. I was getting about 11 skill points per level with Ranger, but a mere 7 skill points per level with fighter (the same as Wizard). Worse, Ranger has a very nice selection of class skills, whereas none of the Fighter skills are usable for my build. So, even with a high INT, I had to skimp on skill selections. (I gave up on Hide and Move Silently, for two.)

To summarize:
I'm not sure if my feat or skill selections are optimal. I realize this depends on play style. But what sort of Concentration would be useful by the time we get to Epic (lvl 20) stuff? And I realize that hide and move silently are an all-or-nothing affair. But would it be worth it for these builds?

In all three cases, I realize I'll need some good gear to take full advantage of the DEX bonuses. Thanks a bunch to Saekee for the equipment lists and suggestions! That will be extremely useful, however I decide to build this.

PS: After consideration, I am planning to try Failedlegend's plan on going for Wraith form in the PM tree. I figured I should try it before I knock it. And it's easy to respec it out.

ThunderCraft
02-04-2014, 11:50 PM
In addition to the above character, I plan on (lesser) reincarnating an old elf toon to try out an Elf build with 6 levels of Ranger:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Zilva Zolond
Level 20 True Neutral Elf Female
(2 Rogue \ 6 Ranger \ 12 Wizard)
Hit Points: 210
Spell Points: 700
BAB: 13\13\18\23
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 18
Will: 9

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 8 8
Dexterity 17 22
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 17 20
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 9 9

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 7 10
Bluff 3 3
Concentration 2 10
Diplomacy -1 -1
Disable Device 7 26
Haggle 3 3
Heal -1 -1
Hide 7 20
Intimidate -1 -1
Jump -1 -1
Listen -1 1
Move Silently 7 20
Open Lock 7 24
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 3 5
Search 7 25
Spellcraft 3 26
Spot 3 19
Swim -1 -1
Tumble 7 10
Use Magic Device 3 15

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell

Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse

Level 4 (Wizard)

Level 5 (Ranger)

Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Defense

Level 7 (Ranger)

Level 8 (Wizard)

Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot

Level 10 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Augment Summoning

Level 11 (Ranger)

Level 12 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 13 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider

Level 14 (Wizard)

Level 15 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Precision

Level 16 (Wizard)

Level 17 (Wizard)

Level 18 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell

Level 19 (Wizard)

Level 20 (Wizard)

Again, I'm not sure if my skill and feat selections are optimal. Though, while I can change feats, one can't change skills without reincarnating again.

The -2 to CON hurts. (As compared to my Shadar-kai build.) Anything less than 15 CON is probably rather squishy, especially for a Wizard-type in melee. I'd need to get a CON tome for this sooner or later. However, the bow range should help mitigate, especially with Manyshot.

Later, I might also try a build that relies on STR, possible Two-Handed instead of Two Weapon Fighting. Maybe even a Rogue 2 / Wizard 18. But I'll try out one or more of the above builds for now.

Failedlegend
02-06-2014, 01:29 AM
I'd like to remind u that have only 12 Wizards level mean that anything that requires a DC is going to be useless defeating the purpose of taking ani intelligence. I really would recommend sticking with an 18/2 build.

ThunderCraft
02-07-2014, 07:57 PM
I'd like to remind u that have only 12 Wizards level mean that anything that requires a DC is going to be useless defeating the purpose of taking ani intelligence. I really would recommend sticking with an 18/2 build.

I realize that spells with a DC will be rather useless for such builds. I plan to relying fully on some combination of damage spells and melee. But as I need this to be the party trapmonkey, I think some INT is necessary and I wanted as many skill points as possible. (The extra spell points are very nice, too.)

By "an 18/2 build" are you referring to a Wiz 18 / Rog 2 build, or a Rog 18 / Wiz 2 build?

I suspect you mean the latter as I can't see much point to the former (aside from traps and such). I have been considering a Rog 18 / Wiz 2 build. Though, I wanted to test out my builds above first. That and I like flinging damage spells. (Also, I suspected playing a pure rogue - or something close - would be comparatively boring.)

Lanhelin
02-07-2014, 10:28 PM
Rogue 18 / Wiz 2 is unusual. 18 Wiz / 2 Rogue is common. People say "I want to disable Traps", so 1 or 2 Rogue Levels are adviced. I never saw people asking for "I want to cast spells." - "Sure, just splash two Wizard Levels." - but I'm curious, what you'd gain from these two Wiz Levels :)

Pala-forged
02-07-2014, 10:52 PM
Rogue 18 / Wiz 2 is unusual. 18 Wiz / 2 Rogue is common. People say "I want to disable Traps", so 1 or 2 Rogue Levels are adviced. I never saw people asking for "I want to cast spells." - "Sure, just splash two Wizard Levels." - but I'm curious, what you'd gain from these two Wiz Levels :)

Feat, access to spellcasting feats, 4 level 1 spells, 3% doublestrike (from EK), +30 hp from palemaster (and some assorted things, mostly useless), level 1 SLA and 90 sp (from archmage, and +130 sp from 1 wizard level.

Not much really.

To OP: Trust me on something. You will not need a lot - or any, beyond skillpoints - of int for traps. 12/14 int is plenty. More int won't increase damage.
And casters are as boring as they get, because they're so powerful without much investment. Playing a melee well is a lot harder and more rewarding.