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Arlathen
02-03-2014, 05:05 AM
I guess I'm a little tired of seeing all the Ranged-based Ranger threads, so lets have a chat about Melee Rangers.

U21 Lammania notes promise that the Tempest Capstone has now been fixed. and indeed, someone has been kind enough to test it and report it now working on all off-hand attacks.

So with some dodgy maths, I've worked out that in terms of Attacks per Minute, a Pure 20 Ranger with Tempest Capstone, Doublestrike bonus and 100% Offhand attacks can now easily surpass any other build combination out there.

That includes looking at Unarmed Earth-stanced Centered-Kensai builds with Shintao offhand bonus, pure Fighter 20 builds with the Alacrity capstone, and included all viable sources of Doublestrike for all types of build.I would of looked at Wind stanced Monks, but there fragility in EE content without a decent amount of PRR from Earth Stance (not to mention the +1 Crit Multiplier) meant I've excluded this point so far. A pure Ranger is looking at 24 PRR from Improved Parry and wearing Light Armour, so thought it fairer to think I would roll a Earth stance Monk if I wanted something similar.

Of course, Attacks per minute is only half the story. What I've not started looking at is the possible damage per swing, which then can translate into an actual DPS number. A Pure Ranger can organise his 5 Favoured Enemies quite nicely for End Game right now (Giants, Orcs, Humans, Evil Outsiders, Undead - Orcs can swap over to Gnolls / Monstrous Humanoids if you run alot more GH than Stormhorns) so I'm thinking that +10 FE Damage is going to sit in there favour quite nicely.

So in terms of EE content, what are your thoughts on a pure 20 Ranger Tempest in an appropiate Melee (LD/FotW) Destiny?

unbongwah
02-03-2014, 10:23 AM
My money's on pure rgr w/dual Mornhs in LD; Pulverizer makes up for not having Keen Edge, though not sure capstone makes up for losing +1 crits from Earth stance.

Arlathen
02-03-2014, 12:01 PM
My money's on pure rgr w/dual Mornhs in LD; Pulverizer makes up for not having Keen Edge, though not sure capstone makes up for losing +1 crits from Earth stance.

Interesting you didn't mention Balizarde's in that reply. Since there already 18-20/x3, is it only the larger sized base damage die that your recommending the Mornh's for?

But really, this leads me back into the question of whether there is enough scope to make the damage competitive. Even excluding the extra Crit Multi from Earth stance, your typical Centered-Kensai is rocking around with +1.5[W] from Dance of Flowers. For a Balizarde, that's an extra 7 Avg damage. For Mornh, that creeps up to 8.

Still, I'm thinking there's way to draw parity for the 20 Ranger, as I mentioned before there's Favoured Enemies and also with U21 in the newer Divine Crusader destiny there is Sword of Virtue which is a T2 Twist for +6 Weapon Damage.

I suppose it comes down to a quite subjective 'How viable is viable' ? :/

Fedora1
02-03-2014, 12:06 PM
U21 Lammania notes promise that the Tempest Capstone has now been fixed.

Sorry for an off-topic question. Did the Tier 5 Tempest timers change? I mean 6 seconds with a long cool down bites.

redspecter23
02-03-2014, 12:12 PM
Sorry for an off-topic question. Did the Tier 5 Tempest timers change? I mean 6 seconds with a long cool down bites.

I agree with this concern. Fixing the capstone is great, but if the tree as a whole is still meh compared to multiclass options then it's a non issue. The opportunity cost of even a powerful capstone is far too large compared to the advantages of splashing another class in nearly every situation.

Teh_Troll
02-03-2014, 12:51 PM
I have both, an 18/1/1 Tempest and a 12/6/2 tempest-kensai.

All things being equal you'll be about 30% DPS behind a TWFing 12/6/2 centered kensai. This is going off of timed tests killing stuff and DPS calcs.

Is it viable? Yes. Is it Optimal? No.

Is it fun? Yes.

Thing is the trade-off used to be DPS versus self-healing whereas now with Bladeforged the 12/6/2 actually has BETTER self-hjealing.

Now with that capstone getting fixed in U21 . . . I'm not sure. I mean it's better than it is now.

Fedora1
02-03-2014, 01:51 PM
I have both, an 18/1/1 Tempest and a 12/6/2 tempest-kensai.

What classes, ranger/fighter/monk? Is the second one an LR'd bladeforged with no pally?

Teh_Troll
02-03-2014, 01:55 PM
What classes, ranger/fighter/monk? Is the second one an LR'd bladeforged with no pally?

Ranger 18/rogue 1/Fighter 1. Human.

Fighter 12/range 6/monk 2. Bladeforged with no pally.

Pay2win FTW.

Arlathen
02-03-2014, 01:59 PM
Sorry for an off-topic question. Did the Tier 5 Tempest timers change? I mean 6 seconds with a long cool down bites.
I agree with this concern. Fixing the capstone is great, but if the tree as a whole is still meh compared to multiclass options then it's a non issue. The opportunity cost of even a powerful capstone is far too large compared to the advantages of splashing another class in nearly every situation.

Not really off-topic tbh - very relevant question when thinking about overall Ranger Melee DPS. And no. There still gimped out.

While Improved Evasion is fairly worthwhile, the supposed 'DPS' enhancements are still at there pitiful durations/cooldowns.

In fact, when playing with possible enhancement specs, I've found myself trying out T5 Deepwood Sniper and only going to T4 Tempest (but with enough AP spent for Capstone). It doesn't leave much for Racial or AA enhancements, but you can pull out a Headshot-Manyshot volley which I think could be very helpful for establishing Master Blitz in EEs.

This also relates to the fact that I would *really* want to get the Killer enhancement out of Deepwood Sniper anyway, which also means a potential bump to Favoured Enemies from 5x FEs/+10 damage to 6x FEs/+15 Damage.


I have both, an 18/1/1 Tempest and a 12/6/2 tempest-kensai.All things being equal you'll be about 30% DPS behind a TWFing 12/6/2 centered kensai. This is going off of timed tests killing stuff and DPS calcs.Is it viable? Yes. Is it Optimal? No. Is it fun? Yes.Thing is the trade-off used to be DPS versus self-healing whereas now with Bladeforged the 12/6/2 actually has BETTER self-hjealing.Now with that capstone getting fixed in U21 . . . I'm not sure. I mean it's better than it is now.

I take it that 12/6/2 is a Fi/Ra/Mk in terms of split? Seems obvious, but just checking. And I guess that seems right. I think I need to go away and look at the on-the-paper numbers, then run a Ranger TR upto 20 ready to test in U21.

On an offhand kind of note (see what I did there?), yeah, Bladeforged is the defacto melee race these days. Its the P2W Monk-of-the-Races if you ask me. Reconstruct, Tactics, PRR, Fort & Power of Forge?! Meh, Moar BF Nerfs!

Fedora1
02-03-2014, 02:03 PM
Ranger 18/rogue 1/Fighter 1. Human.

Fighter 12/range 6/monk 2. Bladeforged with no pally.

Pay2win FTW.

Okay cool. Second question - based on another thread. I think you mentioned you had 100% offhand procs with the 12/6/2. How did you get that? Does it require tomes for dex?

Arlathen
02-03-2014, 02:05 PM
Okay cool. Second question - based on another thread. I think you mentioned you had 100% offhand procs with the 12/6/2. How did you get that? Does it require tomes for dex?

I think you can stack Deft Strikes from Shintao enhancements with the Lvl 3 Ranger Innate in Tempest enhancements.

emptysands
02-03-2014, 02:15 PM
I think you can stack Deft Strikes from Shintao enhancements with the Lvl 3 Ranger Innate in Tempest enhancements.

As long as you are centered.

aristarchus1000
02-03-2014, 02:15 PM
I think you can stack Deft Strikes from Shintao enhancements with the Lvl 3 Ranger Innate in Tempest enhancements.

I had a twf tempest for a while. It is actually pretty fun in fury destiny, because overwhelming fury is great cc and eternal fury results in recharging adrenaline quite quickly.

Right now, monks actually get a higher attacks per minute, however. I like weapons though.

Teh_Troll
02-03-2014, 02:16 PM
Okay cool. Second question - based on another thread. I think you mentioned you had 100% offhand procs with the 12/6/2. How did you get that? Does it require tomes for dex?

Deft Strikes from the Shintao stacks with Tempest.

Grailhawk
02-03-2014, 02:17 PM
So with some dodgy maths, I've worked out that in terms of Attacks per Minute, a Pure 20 Ranger with Tempest Capstone, Doublestrike bonus and 100% Offhand attacks can now easily surpass any other build combination out there.


Based on this https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/275144

I disagree my math says unarmed Monks with 100% off-hand strikes (either a 3 ranger splash or are helf with ranger dilettante) will attack faster then a Ranger.

Ranger: 4.28 Attacks per second (5.58 Attacks per second with Hast Boost)
Monk: 4.29 APS (5.68 APS with Hast Boost)

Ranger: DS = 16% (3% Black Dragon + 3% Item + 5% PTWF + 5% Whirlwind) ODS = 35% (10% PTWF + 25% Capstone)
Monk: DS = 21% (3% Black Dragon + 3% Item + 5% PTWF + 10% wind stance) ODS = 10% (10% PTWF)

Fury of Blows still gives unarmed monks the speed edge.

emptysands
02-03-2014, 02:18 PM
My money's on pure rgr w/dual Mornhs in LD; Pulverizer makes up for not having Keen Edge, though not sure capstone makes up for losing +1 crits from Earth stance.

Fists of Iron and Iron Skin are also very useful. The former for more dps, but the later is really the main point.

It's not entirely about dps. Being able to stay in longer makes a big difference to overall dps.

unbongwah
02-03-2014, 02:18 PM
Interesting you didn't mention Balizarde's in that reply. Since there already 18-20/x3, is it only the larger sized base damage die that your recommending the Mornh's for?
It's just a hunch: Mornh is 17-20 x3 w/Imp Crit, 15-20 x3 w/Pulverizer (or Keen Edge), which puts it on par w/ Balizarde. Plus it's got higher base dmg & Seeker +10 (which can be found on other gear, true, but is still a bit rare). And Anvil of Thunder procs a free stun on crits, IIRC, so if you've got Sense Weakness Twisted in like a good lil' melee, that's a lot of free extra DPS. Hemorrhaging is slightly better than Fracturing, but Magma Surge provides another DPS kick.

But as you say, there are other DPS perks to the monk / kensei route; is +5% main / +25% offhand doublestrike really going to close that gap?

On an offhand kind of note (see what I did there?), yeah, Bladeforged is the defacto melee race these days. Its the P2W Monk-of-the-Races if you ask me. Reconstruct, Tactics, PRR, Fort & Power of Forge?! Meh, Moar BF Nerfs!
I'd rather see the other Iconics get buffed. If Turbine's gonna go the pay2win route, at least make all of them equally viable / OP! ;)

Teh_Troll
02-03-2014, 02:25 PM
Regarding tactics . . . without pally levels dump 'em. I've got 3 Fighter PLs, best possible gear, currently level 25 and my stunning blow ain't holding up in Gianthold even.

I think they need to take another look at the Stunning Blow formula as unless you're a Divine Might build you ain't landing stuff at higher levels.

Fedora1
02-03-2014, 02:32 PM
Deft Strikes from the Shintao stacks with Tempest.

Ok thanks. Not familiar with monks at all.

Arlathen
02-03-2014, 04:33 PM
I had a twf tempest for a while. It is actually pretty fun in fury destiny, because overwhelming fury is great cc and eternal fury results in recharging adrenaline quite quickly.Right now, monks actually get a higher attacks per minute, however. I like weapons though.Come update 21 that will no longer be true though, even with unarmed attack speed. Pure 20 Ranger with Tempest capstone will have great attacks-per-minute than a Monk.

Arlathen
02-03-2014, 04:39 PM
Based on this https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/275144I disagree my math says unarmed Monks with 100% off-hand strikes (either a 3 ranger splash or are helf with ranger dilettante) will attack faster then a Ranger. Ranger: 4.28 Attacks per second (5.58 Attacks per second with Hast Boost) Monk: 4.29 APS (5.68 APS with Hast Boost)Ranger: DS = 16% (3% Black Dragon + 3% Item + 5% PTWF + 5% Whirlwind) ODS = 35% (10% PTWF + 25% Capstone) Monk: DS = 21% (3% Black Dragon + 3% Item + 5% PTWF + 10% wind stance) ODS = 10% (10% PTWF)Fury of Blows still gives unarmed monks the speed edge.

Nice try, but Tempest 10% offhand only works when wielding weapons. And if your wielding weapons, you lose your unarmed attack speed advantage. :)

I put Shintao Monk Unarmed, 100%/90% Offhand, 28% Doublestrike, 10% Offhand DS at 317APM under 15% Haste & 30% Haste Boost.

I put Tempest Ranger 20, 100%/100% Offhand, 33% Doublestrike, 35% Offhand DS at 336APM under 15% Haste and 30% Haste Boost.

I also wouldn't take Wind Stance into account - your asking for trouble in EEs if your running Wind Stance.

Edit: Also, losing Earth stance loses the very important +1 Crit Multiplier on 19-20, which I honestly believe is one of the reasons why a Centered-Kensai is likely to stay at the top of the DPS pile over a 20 Ranger.

Arlathen
02-03-2014, 04:45 PM
Fists of Iron and Iron Skin are also very useful. The former for more dps, but the later is really the main point.

It's not entirely about dps. Being able to stay in longer makes a big difference to overall dps.

Completely agree. I highly rate having lots of PRR in todays EEs. My Paladin toons have all been toting around Sacred Defender stance (25 PRR) and Harboured by Light (50 PRR) to get into the 50% Physical DR region.

This is why I stipulate Earth Stance - 30 PRR straight away with just GM Earth stance (15) and Iron Skin (15). Which is analogous with 28 Epic Ranger wearing Light Armour (24 BAB = 14 PRR) and taking Improved Parry (10).

From there, it's mostly gear that's upping the PRR anyway. A Monk can go a little farther with a T4 GMoF twist for another 15, but its debatable if you really would take that over say Sense Weakness while running LD.

Arlathen
02-03-2014, 04:50 PM
Regarding tactics . . . without pally levels dump 'em. I've got 3 Fighter PLs, best possible gear, currently level 25 and my stunning blow ain't holding up in Gianthold even.

Agreed. Ran a recent S&B Pally Build in LD for DPS funsies, and was struggling to land Stunning Blow in EEs. I think I topped a 72 DC, without Improved Sunder. A few Nightmare neg level procs would sometimes help out, but damn those neg levels regen fast.


I think they need to take another look at the Stunning Blow formula as unless you're a Divine Might build you ain't landing stuff at higher levels.

They could always give it the new U21 QP Buff you love so much :D

On a more serious note, they just need to look at the silly saving throw scaling they've put into EEs.

Arlathen
02-03-2014, 04:54 PM
It's just a hunch: Mornh is 17-20 x3 w/Imp Crit, 15-20 x3 w/Pulverizer (or Keen Edge), which puts it on par w/ Balizarde. Plus it's got higher base dmg & Seeker +10 (which can be found on other gear, true, but is still a bit rare). And Anvil of Thunder procs a free stun on crits, IIRC, so if you've got Sense Weakness Twisted in like a good lil' melee, that's a lot of free extra DPS. Hemorrhaging is slightly better than Fracturing, but Magma Surge provides another DPS kick.

But as you say, there are other DPS perks to the Monk / Kensei route; is +5% main / +25% offhand doublestrike really going to close that gap?

I'd rather see the other Iconics get buffed. If Turbine's gonna go the pay2win route, at least make all of them equally viable / OP! ;)

Mornh + Pulverizer + Anvil of Thunder... yep, totally see that now. As regards the actual DPS gap, I don't know atm, I suspect not but my question is will it make it a comparable/viable alternative to being a bloody Centered-Kensai build.

And I've already paid for Half-Elves ... buff please! More bloody silly enhancements.

emptysands
02-03-2014, 05:11 PM
Good catch on the off-hand tempest vs weapon numbers. Is that something they changed with the new system? I seem to recall that tempest used to work for unarmed.


Completely agree. I highly rate having lots of PRR in todays EEs. My Paladin toons have all been toting around Sacred Defender stance (25 PRR) and Harboured by Light (50 PRR) to get into the 50% Physical DR region.

This is why I stipulate Earth Stance - 30 PRR straight away with just GM Earth stance (15) and Iron Skin (15). Which is analogous with 28 Epic Ranger wearing Light Armour (24 BAB = 14 PRR) and taking Improved Parry (10).

From there, it's mostly gear that's upping the PRR anyway. A Monk can go a little farther with a T4 GMoF twist for another 15, but its debatable if you really would take that over say Sense Weakness while running LD.

There is also incorp/shadow veil difference, but you are right a light armour build will get decent based PRR. With easy options for sheltering (slot or ring say) there is marginal value for twisting stands with stones.

The base dodge that monks get is also a factor.

They should take away the CL cap on CSW for the tempest capstone - then 20 Ranger with +CL5 from Fury probably work well for any fleshie race. Also you lose the benefit of Pulverizer.


Theorycrafting LD vs Fury is tricky. For a TWF toon, you can probably ignore LW/MS, but even so it is a challenge.

emptysands
02-03-2014, 06:14 PM
Edit: Also, losing Earth stance loses the very important +1 Crit Multiplier on 19-20, which I honestly believe is one of the reasons why a Centered-Kensai is likely to stay at the top of the DPS pile over a 20 Ranger.

OC like crit bonuses (+1CM on 19-20) are basically 10% dps boost against 0% fort.

Since effects like fist of iron, etc are rate limited per time unit. Tempest capstone will need more procs per hit in order to get higher dps.

Flat damage increases like [w] effects will scale the same for all builds and thus the extra 6% hits per sec will only give a relative dps difference.

Grailhawk
02-03-2014, 06:25 PM
Nice try, but Tempest 10% offhand only works when wielding weapons. And if your wielding weapons, you lose your unarmed attack speed advantage. :)

I put Shintao Monk Unarmed, 100%/90% Offhand, 28% Doublestrike, 10% Offhand DS at 317APM under 15% Haste & 30% Haste Boost.

I put Tempest Ranger 20, 100%/100% Offhand, 33% Doublestrike, 35% Offhand DS at 336APM under 15% Haste and 30% Haste Boost.

I also wouldn't take Wind Stance into account - your asking for trouble in EEs if your running Wind Stance.

Edit: Also, losing Earth stance loses the very important +1 Crit Multiplier on 19-20, which I honestly believe is one of the reasons why a Centered-Kensai is likely to stay at the top of the DPS pile over a 20 Ranger.

Your clam is that Tempest rangers can attack faster than any other build that is not true a Wind stance monk can attack faster.

If Tempest has been changed to not work with unarmed that is new as of the enhancement pass and I'm unaware of it, however monks can still reach the 100% off hand proc rate through Meditation or War.

Statistically Wind stance provides more DPS then Earth stance but none of the defense. Which is better is subjective and depends on the player.

emptysands
02-03-2014, 07:00 PM
Your clam is that Tempest rangers can attack faster than any other build that is not true a Wind stance monk can attack faster.

If Tempest has been changed to not work with unarmed that is new as of the enhancement pass and I'm unaware of it, however monks can still reach the 100% off hand proc rate through Meditation or War.

Statistically Wind stance provides more DPS then Earth stance but none of the defense. Which is better is subjective and depends on the player.

10% more physical and elemental damage for 10% extra off-hand seems like a trade in the wrong direction for EEs.

Wind stance also loses the +1CM crit bonus vs earth. So "more dps" is very relative any depends the build.

You should only say "statistically" if you are will to back it up with REAL numbers. Otherwise it is just opinion.

unbongwah
02-03-2014, 07:09 PM
Nice try, but Tempest 10% offhand only works when wielding weapons. And if your wielding weapons, you lose your unarmed attack speed advantage. :)
AFAIK, the +offhand proc from Tempest works w/handwraps; the +doublestrike does not. I just created a test build: monk 1 / rgr 6. With ITWF+Deft Strikes+Tempest I should have 80% offhand; testing with handwraps & kamas, I appeared to have the same number of offhand procs with either against a training dummy. I don't have a monk / rgr alt w/GTWF, so I can't see if I can get full 100% w/handwraps. Perhaps someone can make an Iconic to verify.

Grailhawk
02-03-2014, 09:46 PM
10% more physical and elemental damage for 10% extra off-hand seems like a trade in the wrong direction for EEs.

Wind stance also loses the +1CM crit bonus vs earth. So "more dps" is very relative any depends the build.

You should only say "statistically" if you are will to back it up with REAL numbers. Otherwise it is just opinion.

I did in my fist post. But if you want more numbers lol Challenge excepted.

Assumptions
Using my 12/6/2 Fighter/Ranger/Monk as base spreadsheet is set up with him using Balizarde. Note if any build favors +1 CM over 10% DS its this one.

Earth Stance
10% Main hand DS
10% Off hand DS
Main hand Damage Mod 71
Off hand Damage Mod 55
Total Effect damage 66.75 (7 (2d6 Elemental in red Slot) + 25.5 SA (3 Helf, 2 DS + 8 Tharnes) + 9.25 Sense Weakness + 13.5 Phlebotomizing + 4.5 Tunnel Vision)
Seeker 10
A Dance of Flowers Twisted for 4d8 Base damage

Avg Damage Main hand 250.96
Avg Damage Off hand 223.66

Main Hand Attacks per Minute 86.66*(1+(1.1965*0.15))*(1.1)= 112.43
Off Hand Attacks per Minute 86.66*(1+(1.1965*0.15))*(1.1)= 112.43
Total Attacks per Minute 224.86

With Haste Boost Attacks per Minute are
Main and Off hand 86.66*(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*(1.1) = 146.65
Total 293.3

Avg Damage Per minute no Boosts Main hand = 112.43 * 250.96 = 28215.43
Avg Damage Per minute no Boosts Off hand = 112.43*223.66 = 25146.09
Total no Boosts = 53361.52

Avg Damage Per min w/ Boosts Main Hand = 250.96*146.65 = 36803.28
Avg Damage Per min w/ Boosts Off Hand = 223.66 * 146.65 = 32799.74
Toatl w/ Boosts = 65599.47

Now in Wind Stance
Change is
-1 CM
+10% DS


Avg Damage Main hand 241.06
Avg Damage Off hand 215.16

Attacks per Minute
Main Hand 86.66*(1+(1.1965*0.15))*(1.2)= 122.66
Off Hand 112.43
Total Attacks per Minute 235.09

With Haste Boost Attacks per Minute are
Main 86.66*(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*(1.2) = 159.98
Off Hand 146.65
Total 306.63

Avg Damage Per minute no Boosts Main hand = 122.66*241.06 = 29568.42
Avg Damage Per minute no Boosts Off hand = 112.43*215.16 = 25146.09
Total no Boosts = 53758.85 (Thats about 100 damage per minute more)

Avg Damage Per min w/ Boosts Main Hand = 159.98*241.06 = 38564.78
Avg Damage Per min w/ Boosts Off Hand = 146.65*215.16 = 31553.21
Total w/ Boosts = 70117.99 (thats around 4500 Damage better)

Statistically on paper in a spreadsheet Wind stance is better DPS then Earth Stance I'm not the only one who has seen even this. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/433254-Cetus-The-Supreme-Bladeforged-Fighter?p=5235806&viewfull=1#post5235806

Arlathen
02-04-2014, 02:06 AM
Your clam is that Tempest rangers can attack faster than any other build that is not true a Wind stance monk can attack faster.

If Tempest has been changed to not work with unarmed that is new as of the enhancement pass and I'm unaware of it, however monks can still reach the 100% off hand proc rate through Meditation or War.

Statistically Wind stance provides more DPS then Earth stance but none of the defense. Which is better is subjective and depends on the player.

Ok, I accept that by using Tier 5 Shintao enhancements you can have your 100% Offhand, but I would also stipulate that you would go pure Monk in this case for the Shintao capstone to offset the penalties of Meditation of War.

Therefore:

Shintao Monk Unarmed, 100%/90% Offhand, 28% Doublestrike, 10% Offhand DS at 317APM under 15% Haste & 30% Haste Boost (Earth Stance)

Shintao Monk Unarmed, 100%/100% Offhand, 33% Doublestrike, 10% Offhand DS at 346APM under 15% Haste & 30% Haste Boost (Wind stance)

Tempest Ranger 20, 100%/100% Offhand, 33% Doublestrike, 35% Offhand DS at 336APM under 15% Haste and 30% Haste Boost.



But ok, since we're playing number games, let the pure Ranger have a full stack of Killer on-going for an additional 12% MH Doublestrike over the 8% item I've already accounted for:

Tempest Ranger 20, 100%/100% Offhand, 45% Doublestrike, 35% Offhand DS at 351APM under 15% Haste and 30% Haste Boost.



So strictly speaking, no, an unarmed Shintao Monk couldn't attack faster. Yet again, as well, its just lost:



Keen Edge Crit-Range advantage from Kensai
Kensai Weapon Damage bonuses
Fighter Specilisation Damage bonus
Earth Stance +1 Crit Multiplier 19-20
Earth Stance PRR - minimum 30 PRR
Lose 84HP (-6 Con) moving from GM Earth to GM Air stance


So, its now in the same DPS boat as Ranger 20 without the benefit of Favoured Enemies, Rams Might and has no PRR outside of gear.

So I still maintain: For Epic Elites, the fastest attacking realisticbuild you can put together is going to be Ranger 20 with Tempest Capstone.

Now, back on topic, I'll see if I can put some rough numbers together, later, for actual damage output of Ranger 20 vs. Centered Kensai.

Eth
02-04-2014, 02:21 AM
They should take away the CL cap on CSW for the tempest capstone - then 20 Ranger with +CL5 from Fury probably work well for any fleshie race. Also you lose the benefit of Pulverizer.

This so much. In terms of survivability there's no reason to go beyond 15 ranger as long as CSW caps there.
Lvl 25 CSW would be so sweet...

Arlathen
02-04-2014, 02:38 AM
This so much. In terms of survivability there's no reason to go beyond 15 ranger as long as CSW caps there.
Lvl 25 CSW would be so sweet...

While there at it, they can remove the silly cap on Barkskin as well. AC isn't that great anymore, but its pointless to think the spell is limited to +5 when we have +8 Augments and +10 random loot Items in the game.

Frankly, Rangers could do with some new spells in there list. While I like having Rams/CSW/FoM, it's other options are very weak sauce right now.

Longstrider hasn't been useful since the level cap was around 10-12.

emptysands
02-04-2014, 02:55 AM
This so much. In terms of survivability there's no reason to go beyond 15 ranger as long as CSW caps there.
Lvl 25 CSW would be so sweet...

Could go back to the master race - dwarf! ;)

emptysands
02-04-2014, 03:11 AM
Earth Stance
10% Main hand DS
10% Off hand DS
Main hand Damage Mod 71
Off hand Damage Mod 55
Total Effect damage 66.75 (7 (2d6 Elemental in red Slot) + 25.5 SA (3 Helf, 2 DS + 8 Tharnes) + 9.25 Sense Weakness + 13.5 Phlebotomizing + 4.5 Tunnel Vision)
Seeker 10
A Dance of Flowers Twisted for 4d8 Base damage

Avg Damage Main hand 250.96
Avg Damage Off hand 223.66


Double checking your numbers. Assuming OC + Earth for 19-20/x5, 15-18/x3 and 4d8 + 71 = 89.

So, 20 % * ( 89 + 10 ) * 3 + 10% * (89 + 10 ) * 5 + 65 % * 89 = 59.4 + 49.5 + 57.85 = 166.75 base per hit.

166.75 (base) + 66.75 (procs) = 233.50 per hit.


Actually Keen Edge make the Balizarde 19-20/x5, 13-18/x3....

So, 30 % * ( 89 + 10 ) * 3 + 10% * (89 + 10 ) * 5 + 55 % * 89 = 89.1 + 49.5 + 48.95 = 187.55 base per hit.

187.55 (base) + 66.75 (procs) = 254.3 per hit.


I'll review the rest later.

Fedora1
02-04-2014, 06:01 AM
Theorycrafting LD vs Fury is tricky. For a TWF toon, you can probably ignore LW/MS, but even so it is a challenge.

Agreed.

My Ranger finally made it through enough Fury and Shiradi to open up LD and I was like... meh.

No PA, no cleave. There goes LW/MS. One of these days I might plan my build out beyond L20. :)

Aerendil
02-04-2014, 06:33 AM
What's the breakdown on that 33% DS mainhand?

Base 5% (Rng 18) + 5% (PTWF), then...? 3% dragon set, 3% GmoF twist, 8% item (skirmisher's bracers)...what else am I missing?
If we can get to 33% reliably, plus Killer boosts, that's a huge DS advantage. It might also be worth grinding a few martial epic lives to boost DS by a further 9%.

Arlathen
02-04-2014, 06:41 AM
What's the breakdown on that 33% DS mainhand?Base 5% (Rng 18) + 5% (PTWF), then...? 3% dragon set, 3% GmoF twist, 8% item (skirmisher's bracers)...what else am I missing?If we can get to 33% reliably, plus Killer boosts, that's a huge DS advantage. It might also be worth grinding a few martial epic lives to boost DS by a further 9%.

I'm factoring in the following as main hand 'Universal Doublestrike' that all class combinations can get:

3% - Artifact Item: Black Dragon Set
3% - GMoF: Hail of Blows Twist
5% - EDF: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
9% - EDPL: Martial x3
8% - Morale Item: Skirmisher's Bracers
= 28%

Then another 5% for Whirlwind for Level 20 Rangers (strictly speaking level 18, but we're talking about going 20 for the Capstone here), and theoretically upto 45% with Killer stacks (as Killer at 4 stacks is +20% Morale bonus and won't stack with Skirmisher's Bracers).

Arlathen
02-04-2014, 06:50 AM
Agreed.

My Ranger finally made it through enough Fury and Shiradi to open up LD and I was like... meh.

No PA, no cleave. There goes LW/MS. One of these days I might plan my build out beyond L20. :)

I'm personally thinking LW/MS can be a bit of trap for TWF characters. You need to be using cleave's constantly to get the absolute most out of these abilities, and for weaponised TWF that a huge DPS loss against single targets as you won't get offhand procs at all.

When fighting 3+ Mobs, I have a rule of thumb that those cleaves are worthwhile as a single Cleave will net me three or more hits, resulting in (very roughly) more actual damage output.

Which puts me in the position of doing I want to spec into LW/MS if I only use them when seriously outnumbered?

My feat layout for 20 Ranger is looking like this potentially

1 PA
2 Cleave
3 Great Cleave
4 IC: Slash
5 Ex: Khopesh*
6 Dodge
7 Quicken
** A slot for Exotic Weapons could open up DAxes interestingly, even on a non-dwarf. If going the Mornh/Balizarde route, then could take Emp Heal here instead or Point Blank Shot.

E1 Overwhelming Critical
E2 One of: Empower Heal / IC: Ranged**
E3 Epic DR
** I think Manyshotting will be key for a Ranger to setup a good Blitz. IC: Ranged on Pinion makes a lot of sense to me.

EDF1 PTWF
EDF2 Forced Escape

I have EE Jorgundal's to cover 15% Melee Alacrity that Blinding Speed would give.

Arlathen
02-04-2014, 06:53 AM
Could go back to the master race - dwarf! ;)

I would more likely consider going Dwarf than going Bladeforged. But me saying that is like saying I would prefer to be bitten a Great White Shark rather than a Black Widow Spider. :D

(I'm a fan of Human / Half-Elf / Elf based toons, for some reason).

Aerendil
02-04-2014, 07:02 AM
I'm factoring in the following as main hand 'Universal Doublestrike' that all class combinations can get:

3% - Artifact Item: Black Dragon Set
3% - GMoF: Hail of Blows Twist
5% - EDF: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
9% - EDPL: Martial x3
8% - Morale Item: Skirmisher's Bracers
= 28%

Then another 5% for Whirlwind for Level 20 Rangers (strictly speaking level 18, but we're talking about going 20 for the Capstone here), and theoretically upto 45% with Killer stacks (as Killer at 4 stacks is +20% Morale bonus and won't stack with Skirmisher's Bracers).

Ahh, gotcha. Wasn't sure if you were counting the EDPL or not. Not sure if that's realistic or not, but for the purposes of this argument I suppose it is :)

Grailhawk
02-04-2014, 07:36 AM
Ok, I accept that by using Tier 5 Shintao enhancements you can have your 100% Offhand, but I would also stipulate that you would go pure Monk in this case for the Shintao capstone to offset the penalties of Meditation of War.


I stand by my monks having faster attack speed then Rangers.

Also you are wrong about the Tempest Enh as unbongwah's level 7 test and my level 28 test confirmed last night a 15/3/x Monk can have 100% through the Tempest Enh.

Also there's no realistic way you can count full killer stacks in a DPS numbers game. Where as every thing I've said has been realist and could be applicable, you have to result to an unsustainable buff. I wish Rangers could attack faster then Monks too but its just not realistic.

Arlathen
02-04-2014, 07:45 AM
Ok, time for some real contentious debate.... :D :D

I've put some fast and dirty calcs together of 20 Ranger vs. Fighter 12/Monk 6/Pal 2 as a Centred-Kensai build, both of which are using Mornh.

This is what I've calculated:

Ranger 20: 878 DPS
Cen. Kensai: 864 DPS

Yes that's as Damage Per Second.

There's lots of other assumptions I don't have time to detail right now, but very briefly:



Both builds are using Mornh
Both builds are perma Haste boosting
Ranger 20 has Sword of Virtue in Lieu of Dance of Flowers
Kensai is perma-using Divine Might (at Charisma 30 / +10 Ins Str)
Kensai is perma-using Power Surge
Kensai is in atleast Master Earth Stance (+1 Crit Multi)
No Sneak Attack is taken into account at all
No Favoured Enemies taken into account
No Killer Doublestrike taken into account (DS set at 33%/35% for Ranger, 28%/10% for Kensai)


I'm going to do the Bali calcs later on tonight, I expect the Kensai to cruise past into the lead here as the Keen Edge advantage won't be neutralised by Pulverizer.

As always, there's other checks and balances here, as the Kensai above can take advantage of extra Paladin Defenses in more PRR and uninterruptable LoH emergency healing.

Arlathen
02-04-2014, 07:47 AM
I stand by my monks having faster attack speed then Rangers.

Also you are wrong about the Tempest Enh as unbongwah's level 7 test and my level 28 test confirmed last night a 15/3/x Monk can have 100% through the Tempest Enh.

Also there's no realistic way you can count full killer stacks in a DPS numbers game. Where as every thing I've said has been realist and could be applicable, you have to result to an unsustainable buff. I wish Rangers could attack faster then Monks too but its just not realistic.

Fine. Whatever. I don't really care. The point of the thread was to compare Ranger 20 with working Tempest capstone to current top dog Centered Kensai builds anyway, before the huge derailment.

Arlathen
02-04-2014, 07:54 AM
Ahh, gotcha. Wasn't sure if you were counting the EDPL or not. Not sure if that's realistic or not, but for the purposes of this argument I suppose it is :)

I've been running to 28 and double ETR/TR on my intended character, enjoying store bought hearts along the way. I'm a slave to convenience :)

Grailhawk
02-04-2014, 08:13 AM
Double checking your numbers. Assuming OC + Earth for 19-20/x5, 15-18/x3 and 4d8 + 71 = 89.

So, 20 % * ( 89 + 10 ) * 3 + 10% * (89 + 10 ) * 5 + 65 % * 89 = 59.4 + 49.5 + 57.85 = 166.75 base per hit.

166.75 (base) + 66.75 (procs) = 233.50 per hit.


Actually Keen Edge make the Balizarde 19-20/x5, 13-18/x3....

So, 30 % * ( 89 + 10 ) * 3 + 10% * (89 + 10 ) * 5 + 55 % * 89 = 89.1 + 49.5 + 48.95 = 187.55 base per hit.

187.55 (base) + 66.75 (procs) = 254.3 per hit.


I'll review the rest later.

187.55 + 0.95(66.75) = 250.96

You don't get effect damage on a miss.

Teh_Troll
02-04-2014, 08:18 AM
Ok, time for some real contentious debate.... :D :D

I've put some fast and dirty calcs together of 20 Ranger vs. Fighter 12/Monk 6/Pal 2 as a Centred-Kensai build, both of which are using Mornh.

This is what I've calculated:

Ranger 20: 878 DPS
Cen. Kensai: 836 DPS

Yes that's as Damage Per Second.

There's lots of other assumptions I don't have time to detail right now, but very briefly:



Both builds are using Mornh
Both builds are perma Haste boosting
Ranger 20 has Sword of Virtue in Lieu of Dance of Flowers
Kensai is perma-using Divine Might (at Charisma 30 / +10 Ins Str)
Kensai is perma-using Power Surge
Kensai is in atleast Master Earth Stance (+1 Crit Multi)
No Sneak Attack is taken into account at all
No Favoured Enemies taken into account
No Killer Doublestrike taken into account (DS set at 33%/35% for Ranger, 28%/10% for Kensai)



Go with 6 ranger instead of 5 pally.

What STR are you using for your calcs?

I'll believe a 20 Ranger out-DPSing a Kensai when I see it.

Eth
02-04-2014, 08:26 AM
Ok, time for some real contentious debate.... :D :D

I've put some fast and dirty calcs together of 20 Ranger vs. Fighter 12/Monk 6/Pal 2 as a Centred-Kensai build, both of which are using Mornh.

This is what I've calculated:

Ranger 20: 878 DPS
Cen. Kensai: 836 DPS

Yes that's as Damage Per Second.

There's lots of other assumptions I don't have time to detail right now, but very briefly:



Both builds are using Mornh
Both builds are perma Haste boosting
Ranger 20 has Sword of Virtue in Lieu of Dance of Flowers
Kensai is perma-using Divine Might (at Charisma 30 / +10 Ins Str)
Kensai is perma-using Power Surge
Kensai is in atleast Master Earth Stance (+1 Crit Multi)
No Sneak Attack is taken into account at all
No Favoured Enemies taken into account
No Killer Doublestrike taken into account (DS set at 33%/35% for Ranger, 28%/10% for Kensai)


I'm going to do the Bali calcs later on tonight, I expect the Kensai to cruise past into the lead here as the Keen Edge advantage won't be neutralised by Pulverizer.

As always, there's other checks and balances here, as the Kensai above can take advantage of extra Paladin Defenses in more PRR and uninterruptable LoH emergency healing.

Either your calculator is broken or you used totally unrealistic numbers. 800ish DPS looks way to low for either build.
Damage mod is also hugely different on those builds.

Not including FE on a 20 ranger doesn't make much sense. You could even twist in a 6th FE from Primal avatar or even a 7th from DWS - so there's almost nothing left that's not FE (10/12/14 Dam mod for FE is nothing you can just leave out of a calculation).

Teh_Troll
02-04-2014, 08:32 AM
Damage mod is also hugely different on those builds.

If he's using the same damage mod for each his entire premise is flawed.

Eth
02-04-2014, 08:49 AM
If he's using the same damage mod for each his entire premise is flawed.

Well he listed DM and Power Surge. Still those numbers seem very unrealistic.

Grailhawk
02-04-2014, 10:02 AM
Ok, time for some real contentious debate.... :D :D

I've put some fast and dirty calcs together of 20 Ranger vs. Fighter 12/Monk 6/Pal 2 as a Centred-Kensai build, both of which are using Mornh.

This is what I've calculated:

Ranger 20: 878 DPS
Cen. Kensai: 836 DPS

Yes that's as Damage Per Second.

There's lots of other assumptions I don't have time to detail right now, but very briefly:



Both builds are using Mornh
Both builds are perma Haste boosting
Ranger 20 has Sword of Virtue in Lieu of Dance of Flowers
Kensai is perma-using Divine Might (at Charisma 30 / +10 Ins Str)
Kensai is perma-using Power Surge
Kensai is in atleast Master Earth Stance (+1 Crit Multi)
No Sneak Attack is taken into account at all
No Favoured Enemies taken into account
No Killer Doublestrike taken into account (DS set at 33%/35% for Ranger, 28%/10% for Kensai)


I'm going to do the Bali calcs later on tonight, I expect the Kensai to cruise past into the lead here as the Keen Edge advantage won't be neutralised by Pulverizer.

As always, there's other checks and balances here, as the Kensai above can take advantage of extra Paladin Defenses in more PRR and uninterruptable LoH emergency healing.

You need to show your work so people can see your errors. My numbers have Knesai always ahead even with Mornh.

Ranger
Unboosted Damage
30286.05 = 219.48 * 137.99
27388.26 = 198.48 * 137.99
57674.30 Total
961.24 DPS

Damage Boosted Only Assuming no Delay in activation.
36343.81 = 263.38 * 137.99
32866.46 = 238.18 * 137.99
69210.26 Total
1153.50 DPS

Haste Boost Only Assuming no Delays in Activation
39502.01 = 219.48 * 179.98
35722.43 = 198.48 * 179.98
75224.44 Total
1253.74 DPS

Hast + Damage Boost no Delay in activation
47403.13 = 263.38 * 179.98
42867.64 = 238.18 * 179.98
90270.77 Total
1504.51 DPS

Kensei
Unboosted Damage
34504.95 = 259.67 * 132.88
25658.77 = 228.22 * 112.43
60163.72 Total
1002.73 DPS

Damage Boosted Only Assuming no Delay in activation.
41405.41 = 311.60 * 132.88
30790.08 = 273.86 * 112.43
72195.46 Total
1203.26 DPS

Haste Boost Only Assuming no Delays in Activation
45006.00 = 259.67 * 173.32
33468.46 = 228.22 * 146.65
78474.47 Total
1307.91 DPS

Hast + Damage Boost no Delay in activation
54006.51 = 311.60 * 173.32
40161.57 = 273.86 * 112.43
94168.08 Total
1569.47 DPS

Math & Stats


Kensai
Strength
18 Base
07 Level Ups
05 Tome
10 Item
01 Exceptional
13 Insight (Divine Might)
01 Race (Human)
01 Destiny
05 Primal Scream
11 Power Surge (8+3 Human Action Boost)
02 Ship
02 Yugo
76 Total

Main Hand Damage Mod
33 Strength
08 Weapon Enchantment
10 Deadly
05 Advancing Blows
04 Kensai
04 Fighter Feat
05 Power Attack
04 Planar Focus
01 Tempest
74 Total

Off Hand Damage Mod
16 Strength
08 Weapon Enchantment
10 Deadly
05 Advancing Blows
04 Kensai
04 Fighter Feat
05 Power Attack
04 Planar Focus
01 Tempest
57 Total

Damage Effects
15.00 Sneak Attack (2d6 Deepwood + 8 Tharnes)
07.00 Fracturing
07.00 Elemental Damage (2d6 Red Slot)
05.72 Magma Surge
07.00 Ravagers Set
09.25 Sense Weakness
04.50 Tunnel Vision
55.47 Total

Double Strike
03% Black Dragon Set
03% Hail of Blows Twist
05% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
09% Epic Past Life Martial x3
08% Skirmisher's Bracers
02% Strike With No Thought
30% Total

Off Hand Double Strike
10% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
10% Total

Base Weapon Damage
3.0[W] Mornh Base
1.5[W] A Dance of Flowers
0.5[W] Improved Power Attack
5.0[W] Total

Seeker
10 Item
06 LD T3
16 Total

Crit Profile
15-18/x3
19-20/x6 (LD T4, Earth Stance, Ovherwhlming Critical)

Avg Damage Main Hand
5d10 + 74 with 55.47 Effect Damage
0.65(27.5+74) + 0.60(27.5+74+16) + 0.60(27.5+74+16) + 0.95(55.47) = 259.67
Human Damage Boost 1.2(259.67) = 311.60

Avg Damage Off Hand
5d10 + 57 with 55.47 Effect Damage
0.65(27.5+57) + 0.60(27.5+57+16) + 0.60(27.5+57+16) + 0.95(55.47) = 228.22
Human Damage Boost 1.2(228.22) = 273.86

Attacks Per Min Main Hand
132.88 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*0.15))*1.3
Haste Boost 173.32 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*1.3

Attacks Per Min Off Hand
112.43 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*0.15))*1.1
Haste Boost 146.65 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*1.1


Ranger
Strength
18 Base
07 Level Ups
05 Tome
10 Item
01 Exceptional
03 Insight (Divine Might)
01 Race (Human)
01 Class
01 Destiny
05 Primal Scream
02 Ship
02 Yugo
56 Total

Main Hand Damage Mod
23 Strength
08 Weapon Enchantment
10 Deadly
05 Advancing Blows
10 Favored Enemy
05 Power Attack
04 Planar Focus
01 Tempest
66 Total

Off Hand Damage Mod
11 Strength
08 Weapon Enchantment
10 Deadly
05 Advancing Blows
10 Favored Enemy
05 Power Attack
04 Planar Focus
01 Tempest
54 Total

Damage Effects
15.00 Sneak Attack (2d6 Deepwood + 8 Tharnes)
07.00 Fracturing
07.00 Elemental Damage (2d6 Red Slot)
05.72 Magma Surge
07.00 Ravagers Set
09.25 Sense Weakness
04.50 Tunnel Vision
55.47 Total

Double Strike
03% Black Dragon Set
03% Hail of Blows Twist
05% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
09% Epic Past Life Martial x3
08% Skirmisher's Bracers
02% Strike With No Thought
05% Whirlwind
35% Total

Off Hand Double Strike
10% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
25% Capstone
35% Total

Base Weapon Damage
3.0[W] Mornh Base
0.5[W] Improved Power Attack
3.5[W] Total

Seeker
10 Item
06 LD T3
16 Total

Crit Profile
15-18/x3
19-20/x5 (LD T4, Overwhelming Critical)

Avg Damage Main Hand
3.5d10 + 66 with 55.47 Effect Damage
0.65(19.25+66) + 0.60(19.25+66+16) + 0.50(19.25+66+16) + 0.95(55.47) = 219.48
Human Damage Boost 1.2(259.67) = 263.38

Avg Damage Off Hand
3.5d10 + 54 with 55.47 Effect Damage
0.65(19.25+54) + 0.60(19.25+54+16) + 0.50(19.25+54+16) + 0.95(55.47) = 198.48
Human Damage Boost 1.2(228.22) = 238.18

Attacks Per Min Main Hand
137.99 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*0.15))*1.35
Haste Boost 179.98 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*1.35

Attacks Per Min Off Hand
137.99 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*0.15))*1.35
Haste Boost 179.98 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*1.35

Arlathen
02-04-2014, 10:13 AM
Go with 6 ranger instead of 5 pally.

What STR are you using for your calcs?

I'll believe a 20 Ranger out-DPSing a Kensai when I see it.

I did spot a small mistake in my initial quick calcs, still it only closes the gap a little:

Ranger 20: 878 DPS
Cnt-Kensai: 864 DPS

(Edited my above post as well)

I'll believe it when I see it as well, tbh.

I was actually thinking that 12 Fighter/Paladin is going to be more DPS, with Power Surge and Divine Might advantage over the Ranger. Not to mention I know someone who actually plays this variant rather than the Ranger version. Still, I'll look at a 100% Offhand Ranger version later on.

In terms of stats, I'm working with 56 Str for the Ranger, and 70 Str for the Centered Kensai, with the Kensai having 30 Charisma for DM. In addition, I have the Ranger at 50.5 Damage Mod before Strength and FEs and the Kensai at 52.75 Damage Mod before Strength.

Also, don't forget I'm also working on the fact that the Ranger can pick up Sword of Virtue from Divine Crusader in U21, as a decent replacement for Dance of Flowers. The other equaliser is that Mornh allows a Ranger to draw parallel with Keen Edge through Pulverizer.

Lots of ifs and but's and maybes.


Either your calculator is broken or you used totally unrealistic numbers. 800ish DPS looks way to low for either build.
Damage mod is also hugely different on those builds.

Not including FE on a 20 ranger doesn't make much sense. You could even twist in a 6th FE from Primal avatar or even a 7th from DWS - so there's almost nothing left that's not FE (10/12/14 Dam mod for FE is nothing you can just leave out of a calculation).

I've never really tried to actually calculate DPS before, so I could be off target here, but I think I've got it roughly right. Remember, no Sneak Attack and no Blitz. Just straight Haste Boosting DPS on Mornhs.

But umm, since we're talking situational bonuses here, can I have my Killer bonus back then please since both builds are going to be Blitzing in most quests? Please Sir?

My point was to try and draw a roughly 'fair' appraisal of both toons before getting into more nitty gritty. I think FE's will give the Ranger an unfair advantage at this point.


If he's using the same damage mod for each his entire premise is flawed.

Nope. See above.


Well he listed DM and Power Surge. Still those numbers seem very unrealistic.

Feel free to post your own calcs if you think my DPS calcs are in coming way too low for both :)

Teh_Troll
02-04-2014, 10:16 AM
Feel free to post your own calcs if you think my DPS calcs are in coming way too low for both :)

No, I test how long it takes to kill stuff. Way more accurate as math never solves anything.

Arlathen
02-04-2014, 10:29 AM
<snip>



1. Your missing Rams Might and Action Boost bonus to Str from the Ranger Column.
2. Your missing the Whirling Blades options from Tempest Enhancements
3. Ranger 20 is capable of hitting 6D6/4D6 Sneak Attack as Half-Elf/Human, not just 2D6 as you have listed
4. I would put both builds in LD and not Fury of the Wild, unless your Twisting Sense, Tunnel Vision, Primal Scream and Dance of Flowers at the same time?
5. You need to remove Strike with no Thought from the Ranger column.
6. Your missing Combat Brute, but I gather this is a complication of your ED choice...
7. Both Builds can get to +24 Seeker, not just 16

As an idea for enhancements on the Ranger Build, I've been looking at:
41AP for Tempest, with Capstone, Critical Damage 3, Whirling Blades 4 and 2x Strength
26AP for Deepwood Sniper, obtaining +4D6 Sneak Attack, Killer and FE Damage 3 for +13 FE damage
8AP for Half Elf with Rogue Dilletante, for another +2D6 Sneak attack, Damage Boost and +1 Str

Leaving me 5 AP to pick up whatever extras I can squeeze.

Arlathen
02-04-2014, 10:29 AM
No, I test how long it takes to kill stuff. Way more accurate as math never solves anything.

Not in this Forum, it doesn't :P

Grailhawk
02-04-2014, 10:31 AM
Also, don't forget I'm also working on the fact that the Ranger can pick up Sword of Virtue from Divine Crusader in U21, as a decent replacement for Dance of Flowers. The other equaliser is that Mornh allows a Ranger to draw parallel with Keen Edge through Pulverizer.

That a good call

That would put my numbers at
1009.53, 1211.46, 1316.73, 1580.10 For the Ranger bringing him ahead of the fighter with Mornh.

Eth
02-04-2014, 10:31 AM
Feel free to post your own calcs if you think my DPS calcs are in coming way too low for both :)
I prefer to test DPS ingame. Not that hard anymore thanks to visable HP through monster manual.

Eth
02-04-2014, 10:32 AM
snip

You also miss +1W for both cases though from LD Tier 5.

Grailhawk
02-04-2014, 10:37 AM
1. Your missing Rams Might and Action Boost bonus to Str from the Ranger Column.
2. Your missing the Whirling Blades options from Tempest Enhancements
3. Ranger 20 is capable of hitting 6D6/4D6 Sneak Attack as Half-Elf/Human, not just 2D6 as you have listed
4. I would put both builds in LD and not Fury of the Wild, unless your Twisting Sense, Tunnel Vision, Primal Scream and Dance of Flowers at the same time?
5. You need to remove Strike with no Thought from the Ranger column.
6. Your missing Combat Brute, but I gather this is a complication of your ED choice...
7. Both Builds can get to +24 Seeker, not just 16

As an idea for enhancements on the Ranger Build, I've been looking at:
41AP for Tempest, with Capstone, Critical Damage 3, Whirling Blades 4 and 2x Strength
26AP for Deepwood Sniper, obtaining +4D6 Sneak Attack, Killer and FE Damage 3 for +13 FE damage
8AP for Half Elf with Rogue Dilletante, for another +2D6 Sneak attack, Damage Boost and +1 Str

Leaving me 5 AP to pick up whatever extras I can squeeze.

There are a lot of errors in my calculations related to LD and Fury (that's cause i was quickly converting the numbers in my spreadsheat my bad)

I'm still not sure the Ranger will beat the Centered Kensai but its going to be close on the spreadsheats. What Twists are you using on the Ranger?

Grailhawk
02-04-2014, 10:40 AM
7. Both Builds can get to +24 Seeker, not just 16

Brake down please?

Edit:
Nevermind I forgot about clock of the wolf.

Grailhawk
02-04-2014, 11:42 AM
Kensai
DPS: 1079.72, 1295.66, 1408.33, 1689.99

Ranger w/ FE
DPS: 1196.99, 1436.38, 1561.24, 1873.47

Ranger w/o FE
DPS: 1092.35, 1310.81, 1424.75, 1709.69

Ranger still has the issue of no reliable EE stun though, and the build I'm using here has no where need the amount of healing amp a ranger should, but still very interesting numbers if there not chucked full of mistakes again.



Kensai 12/6/2 Fighter/Monk/Paladin Helf with Ranger Dilettante
21 AP Helf 20% Amp, Tempest, Damage Boost, +1 STR, Action Surge STR +3
37 AP Kensai Power Surge, One With the Blade, +2 STR, +3 Seeker, Hast Boost, +3 Action Boost, Keen Edge
13 AP Ninja 3d6 Sneak Attack, Shadow Vail, +3% Dodge
09 AP Knight Divine Might II (60 Duration)

Twists Sense Weakness
A Dance of flowers
Hail of Blows

Strength
18 Base
07 Level Ups
05 Tome
10 Item
01 Exceptional
13 Insight (Divine Might)
01 Race (Helf)
02 Class
01 Destiny
05 Primal Scream (Some one else is bound to Scream)
11 Power Surge (8+3 Human Action Boost)
02 Ship
02 Yugo
78 Total

Main Hand Damage Mod
33 Strength
08 Weapon Enchantment
10 Deadly
05 Advancing Blows
04 Kensai
04 Fighter Feat
05 Power Attack
04 Planar Focus
74 Total

Off Hand Damage Mod
16 Strength
08 Weapon Enchantment
10 Deadly
05 Advancing Blows
04 Kensai
04 Fighter Feat
05 Power Attack
04 Planar Focus
01 Tempest
57 Total

Damage Effects
15.00 Sneak Attack (3d6 Deepwood + 8 Tharnes)
07.00 Fracturing
07.00 Elemental Damage (2d6 Red Slot)
05.72 Magma Surge
07.00 Ravagers Set
09.25 Sense Weakness
54.47 Total

Double Strike
03% Black Dragon Set
03% Hail of Blows Twist
05% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
09% Epic Past Life Martial x3
08% Skirmisher's Bracers
02% Strike With No Thought
30% Total

Off Hand Double Strike
10% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
10% Total

Base Weapon Damage
3.0[W] Mornh Base
1.5[W] A Dance of Flowers
0.5[W] Improved Power Attack
5.0[W] Total
1.0[W] Combat Brute

Seeker
10 Item
06 LD T3
03 Enhancements
05 Exceptional
24 Total

Crit Profile
15-18/x3
19-20/x6 (LD T4, Earth Stance, Overwhelming Critical)

Avg Damage Main Hand
6d10 + 74 with 54.47 Effect Damage
0.65(33.5+74) + 0.60(33.5+74+24) + 0.60(33+74+24) + 0.95(54.47) = 278.50
Human Damage Boost 1.2(278.50) = 334.20

Avg Damage Off Hand
6d10 + 57 with 54.47 Effect Damage
0.65(33+57) + 0.60(33+57+24) + 0.60(33+57+24) + 0.95(54.47) = 247.05
Human Damage Boost 296.46

Attacks Per Min Main Hand
132.88 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*0.15))*1.3
173.32 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*1.3

Attacks Per Min Off Hand
112.43 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*0.15))*1.1
146.65 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*1.1



Ranger
12 Helf Damage Boost, +1 STR, 10% Hamp, 2d6 Sneak Attack
41 Tempest Capstone, +2 STR, +3 Seeker, +3% Dodge, +3 Relex, Deflect Arrow 2 Seconds, Whirling Blade IV, Haste Boost
24 Stalker 4d6 Sneak Attack, 20 Positive Energy, +3 FE Hit and Damage

Twists Sense Weakness
Sword of Virtue
Hail of Blows

Strength
18 Base
07 Level Ups
05 Tome
10 Item
01 Exceptional
03 Insight
01 Race (Human)
02 Class
02 Destiny
05 Primal Sceam (Some one else will scream)
02 Ship
02 Yugo
60 Total

Main Hand Damage Mod
25 Strength
08 Weapon Enchantment
10 Deadly
02 Rams Might
05 Advancing Blows
13 Favored Enemy
05 Power Attack
04 Planar Focus
04 Tempest
06 Sword of Virtue
82 Total

Off Hand Damage Mod
12 Strength
08 Weapon Enchantment
10 Deadly
02 Rams Might
05 Advancing Blows
10 Favored Enemy
05 Power Attack
04 Planar Focus
04 Tempest
06 Sword of Virtue
66 Total

Damage Effects
25.50 Sneak Attack (5d6 Deepwood + 8 Tharnes)
07.00 Fracturing
07.00 Elemental Damage (2d6 Red Slot)
05.72 Magma Surge
07.00 Ravagers Set
09.25 Sence Weakness
61.47 Total

Double Strike
03% Black Dragon Set
03% Hail of Blows Twist
05% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
09% Epic Past Life Martial x3
08% Skirmisher's Bracers
02% Strike With No Thought
05% Whirlwind
35% Total

Off Hand Double Strike
10% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
25% Capstone
35% Total

Base Weapon Damage
3.0[W] Mornh Base
0.5[W] Improved Power Attack
1.0[W] Combat Brute
4.5[W] Total

Seeker
10 Item
06 LD T3
03 Enhancements
05 Exceptional
24 Total

Crit Profile
15-18/x3
19-20/x5 (LD T4, Overwhelming Critical)

Avg Damage Main Hand
4.5d10 + 82 with 61.47 Effect Damage
0.65(24.75+82) + 0.60(24.75+82+24) + 0.50(24.75+82+24) + 0.95(61.47) = 271.61
Human Damage Boost 1.2(259.67) = 325.93

Avg Damage Off Hand
4.5d10 + 69 with 61.47 Effect Damage
0.65(24.75+69) + 0.60(24.75+69+24) + 0.50(24.75+69+24) + 0.95(61.47) = 248.86
Human Damage Boost 1.2(228.22) = 298.63

Attacks Per Min Main Hand
137.99 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*0.15))*1.35
179.98 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*1.35

Attacks Per Min Off Hand
137.99 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*0.15))*1.35
179.98 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*1.35

Teh_Troll
02-04-2014, 11:44 AM
Ranger still has the issue of no reliable EE stun though . . .

Neither does a Fighter 12/ranger 6/monk 2.

If you don't have ******-strength from divine might your stunning blow stops working in Gianthold.

Teh_Troll
02-04-2014, 11:46 AM
Kensai
DPS: 1079.72, 1295.66, 1408.33, 1689.99

Ranger w/ FE
DPS: 1196.99, 1436.38, 1561.24, 1873.47

Ranger w/o FE
DPS: 1092.35, 1310.81, 1424.75, 1709.69


So this is a Ranger 20 . . . with 35% off-hand DS and all that jazz?

Morhns in LD?

Hows abouts Balizardes in FoTW?

Grailhawk
02-04-2014, 11:59 AM
Neither does a Fighter 12/ranger 6/monk 2.

If you don't have ******-strength from divine might your stunning blow stops working in Gianthold.

Kensai I'm using is Cetus build on a Helf in order to get the Tempest Enh through the Dilettante. So it would have DM. ~ Stunning blow of around 10+33+15+3 = 61 Probably not 100% in EE but if it can fit Improve Sundering that's 65 which will be close.

Teh_Troll
02-04-2014, 12:17 PM
Kensai I'm using is Cetus build on a Helf in order to get the Tempest Enh through the Dilettante. So it would have DM. ~ Stunning blow of around 10+33+15+3 = 61 Probably not 100% in EE but if it can fit Improve Sundering that's 65 which will be close.

I have a 62 DC (I think) now at 25. Doesn't land enough in EE GH to be worth bothering.

65 in stormhorns . . . don't bother.

Grailhawk
02-04-2014, 12:25 PM
So this is a Ranger 20 . . . with 35% off-hand DS and all that jazz?

Morhns in LD?

Hows abouts Balizardes in FoTW?


Kensai
DPS: 1059.54, 1267.84, 1378.09, 1653.70

Ranger w/ FE
DPS: 1190.65, 1428.79, 1552.96, 1863.57

Ranger w/o FE
DPS: 1080.02, 1296.05, 1408.67, 1690.43

I don't really believe what I'm seeing so some one double check the numbers lol.



Kensai 12/6/2 Fighter/Monk/Paladin Helf with Ranger Dilletante
21 AP Helf 20% Amp, Tempest, Damage Boost, +1 STR, Action Surge STR +3
37 AP Kensai Power Surge, One With the Blade, +2 STR, +3 Seeker, Hast Boost, +3 Action Boost, Keen Edge
13 AP Ninja 3d6 Sneak Attack, Shadow Vail, +3% Dodge
09 AP Knight Divine Might II (60 Duration)

Critical Damage
A Dance of flowers
Hail of Blows

Strength
18 Base
07 Level Ups
05 Tome
10 Item
01 Exceptional
13 Insight (Divine Might)
01 Race (Helf)
02 Class
01 Destiny
05 Primal Scream (Some one else is bound to Scream)
11 Power Surge (8+3 Human Action Boost)
02 Ship
02 Yugo
78 Total

Main Hand Damage Mod
33 Strength
08 Weapon Enchantment
10 Deadly
06 Fury
04 Kensai
04 Fighter Feat
05 Power Attack
04 Planar Focus
75 Total

Off Hand Damage Mod
16 Strength
08 Weapon Enchantment
10 Deadly
06 Fury
04 Kensai
04 Fighter Feat
05 Power Attack
04 Planar Focus
01 Tempest
58 Total

Damage Effects
18.50 Sneak Attack (3d6 Ninja + 8 Tharnes)
13.50 Phlebotomizing
07.00 Elemental Damage (2d6 Red Slot)
07.00 Ravagers Set
09.25 Sense Weakness
06.50 Tunnel Vision
61.75 Total

Double Strike
03% Black Dragon Set
03% Hail of Blows Twist
05% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
09% Epic Past Life Martial x3
08% Skirmisher's Bracers
02% Strike With No Thought
30% Total

Off Hand Double Strike
10% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
10% Total

Base Weapon Damage
2.5[W] Balizarde Base
1.5[W] A Dance of Flowers
4.0[W] Total

Seeker
10 Item
06 LD T3
03 Enhancement
05 Exceptional
24 Total

Crit Profile
15-18/x3
19-20/x5 (Earth Stance, Overwhelming Critical)

Avg Damage Main Hand
4d8 + 75 with 61.75 Effect Damage
273.61
Human Damage Boost 328.33

Avg Damage Off Hand
4d8 + 58 with 61.75 Effect Damage
240.46
Human Damage Boost 288.55

Attacks Per Min Main Hand
132.88 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*0.15))*1.3
173.32 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*1.3

Attacks Per Min Off Hand
112.43 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*0.15))*1.1
146.65 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*1.1



Ranger
12 Helf Damage Boost, +1 STR, 10% Hamp, 2d6 Sneak Attack
41 Tempest Capstone, +2 STR, +3 Seeker, +3% Dodge, +3 Relex, Deflect Arrow 2 Seconds, Whirling Blade IV, Haste Boost
24 Stalker 4d6 Sneak Attack, 20 Positive Energy, +3 FE Hit and Damage

Critical Damage
Sword of Virtue
Hail of Blows

Strength
18 Base
07 Level Ups
05 Tome
10 Item
01 Exceptional
03 Insight
01 Race (Human)
02 Class
02 Destiny
05 Primal Scream (Some one else will scream)
02 Ship
02 Yugo
60 Total

Main Hand Damage Mod
25 Strength
08 Weapon Enchantment
10 Deadly
02 Rams Might
06 Fury
13 Favored Enemy
05 Power Attack
04 Planar Focus
04 Tempest
06 Sword of Virtue
83 Total

Off Hand Damage Mod
12 Strength
08 Weapon Enchantment
10 Deadly
02 Rams Might
06 Fury
13 Favored Enemy
05 Power Attack
04 Planar Focus
04 Tempest
06 Sword of Virtue
70 Total

Damage Effects
25.50 Sneak Attack (5d6 Deepwood + 8 Tharnes)
13.50 Phlebotomizing
07.00 Elemental Damage (2d6 Red Slot)
07.00 Ravagers Set
09.25 Sense Weakness
06.50 Tunnel Vision
68.75 Total

Double Strike
03% Black Dragon Set
03% Hail of Blows Twist
05% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
09% Epic Past Life Martial x3
08% Skirmisher's Bracers
02% Strike With No Thought
05% Whirlwind
35% Total

Off Hand Double Strike
10% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
25% Capstone
35% Total

Base Weapon Damage
2.5[W] Balizard Base


Seeker
10 Item
06 LD T3
03 Enhancement
05 Exceptional
24 Total

Crit Profile
15-18/x3
19-20/x4 (Overwhelming Critical)

Avg Damage Main Hand
2.5d8 + 83 with 68.75 Effect Damage
270.88
Human Damage Boost 325.06

Avg Damage Off Hand
2.5d8 + 70 with 61.47 Effect Damage
246.83
Human Damage Boost 296.20

Attacks Per Min Main Hand
137.99 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*0.15))*1.35
179.98 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*1.35

Attacks Per Min Off Hand
137.99 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*0.15))*1.35
179.98 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*1.35

Grailhawk
02-04-2014, 12:30 PM
I have a 62 DC (I think) now at 25. Doesn't land enough in EE GH to be worth bothering.

65 in stormhorns . . . don't bother.

I forgot to add the +6 from LD that gets it to 71. But good luck fitting the Tactics and the DPS gear at the same time.

Wipey
02-04-2014, 12:39 PM
Can I ask what Sword of Virtue might be ?

Grailhawk
02-04-2014, 12:42 PM
Can I ask what Sword of Virtue might be ?

Tier 1 or 2 twist form Divine Crusader it grants +6 to damage.

Teh_Troll
02-04-2014, 12:46 PM
Tier 1 or 2 twist form Divine Crusader it grants +6 to damage.

Wow . . . that's not that broken.

Teh_Troll
02-04-2014, 12:47 PM
Kensai
DPS: 1059.54, 1267.84, 1378.09, 1653.70

Ranger w/ FE
DPS: 1190.65, 1428.79, 1552.96, 1863.57

Ranger w/o FE
DPS: 1080.02, 1296.05, 1408.67, 1690.43

I don't really believe what I'm seeing so some one double check the numbers lol.

I won't believe it until one beats the other in a Sobrien test.

Wipey
02-04-2014, 12:49 PM
Thanks. I was looking for ctrl+f Virtue and it's called Sword of Justice on Wiki.
Hmm not a bad twist for tier 2, since I have Cocoon, Brace and Balanced Attacks most the time, prolly won't use.

For spreadsheet max numbers, why not.

Grailhawk
02-04-2014, 12:58 PM
I won't believe it until one beats the other in a Sobrien test.

I agree.


Thanks. I was looking for ctrl+f Virtue and it's called Sword of Justice on Wiki.
Hmm not a bad twist for tier 2, since I have Cocoon, Brace and Balanced Attacks most the time, prolly won't use.

For spreadsheet max numbers, why not.

I can fit it in. Brace, Unearthly, Sword probably be my go twists on my ranger.

emptysands
02-04-2014, 02:15 PM
I'm personally thinking LW/MS can be a bit of trap for TWF characters. You need to be using cleave's constantly to get the absolute most out of these abilities, and for weaponised TWF that a huge DPS loss against single targets as you won't get offhand procs at all.

When fighting 3+ Mobs, I have a rule of thumb that those cleaves are worthwhile as a single Cleave will net me three or more hits, resulting in (very roughly) more actual damage output.

Which puts me in the position of doing I want to spec into LW/MS if I only use them when seriously outnumbered?


The +[W] effects will potentially get a multiplicative boost from blitz. But the dps issue is likely going to be animation drag.

I've tried to theorycraft THF MS/LW/C/GC is the past [1], it's not fun and you have to make a lot of assumptions.



[1] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Am-tdsutQAFCdGExRVJDbjJZbDlmbHcyUXpzWXJTTmc&usp=sharing

Arlathen
02-04-2014, 05:16 PM
Kensai
DPS: 1059.54, 1267.84, 1378.09, 1653.70

Ranger w/ FE
DPS: 1190.65, 1428.79, 1552.96, 1863.57

Ranger w/o FE
DPS: 1080.02, 1296.05, 1408.67, 1690.43

I don't really believe what I'm seeing so some one double check the numbers lol.


Very, very interesting, and I'm totally surprised. I really thought Keen Edge on Balizarde's would give the Kensai the edge.

Heh, its late, I'm tired. Speaking of which, I'll have an honest nitpick through your numbers tomorrow and see if I can spot anything glaring. Appreciate the seperate FE numbers as well for the ranger.

Have virtual +1 Rep until then :)


Wow . . . that's not that broken.

No, it's not is it?

And as I keep stressing its the perfect replacement twist for non-centered builds. Any moment now I'm expect Varg to walk into this thread with his best Winston Churchill impression going "yes, yes, we totally designed this to be a balancing act for all those Centered Kensai builds out there!"..

Not.


The +[W] effects will potentially get a multiplicative boost from blitz. But the dps issue is likely going to be animation drag.

I've tried to theorycraft THF MS/LW/C/GC is the past [1], it's not fun and you have to make a lot of assumptions.


I had another play around with LD and my TWF Main as I've capped him again tonight to 20 and TR'd straight into Ranger so I can give this a try when U21 lands. As people have pointed out - It's worth a Sobrien Test or 5.

As I thought, with sensible use of Cleaves, I was able to use Momentum Swing more often than I thought. It takes a little discipline to not just smash the keyboard hotkeys every 3s praying your cleaves are off cooldown so you can mash into using MS.... but still, used appropriately I think it can work still.

There's is a slightly horrible animation drag at the end of Momentum Swing when TWF though, agreed there. Lay Waste is perfectly fine though.



So overall, very interesting. After Unbongwah pointed out the Mornh's, I suspected Ranger 20 could be close to Centered Kensai in terms of raw DPS - I just didn't expect those numbers with Balizarde's though. I would of sworn Keen Edge would of given the Kensai the edge.

Still - it seems like we may have an answer to my question in my OP - Can a Ranger 20 get close to Centered Kensai DPS with a working Capstone? Well...... yes, so it seems :)

Which means that are the T5's really that badly balanced in hindsight? If we suddenly had Thousand Cuts / Dance of Death for 20s out of every 60s, wouldn't that push the Ranger into OP territory?

Food for Troll thoughts.

Teh_Troll
02-04-2014, 06:00 PM
Food for Troll thoughts.

Like I think? Really?

Arlathen
02-04-2014, 06:06 PM
Like I think? Really?

Dammit, there's goes my rose-tinted view on your input :P

Grailhawk
02-05-2014, 08:58 AM
Kensai
DPS: 1059.54, 1267.84, 1378.09, 1653.70

Ranger w/ FE
DPS: 1190.65, 1428.79, 1552.96, 1863.57

Ranger w/o FE
DPS: 1080.02, 1296.05, 1408.67, 1690.43

I don't really believe what I'm seeing so some one double check the numbers lol.



Kensai 12/6/2 Fighter/Monk/Paladin Helf with Ranger Dilletante
21 AP Helf 20% Amp, Tempest, Damage Boost, +1 STR, Action Surge STR +3
37 AP Kensai Power Surge, One With the Blade, +2 STR, +3 Seeker, Hast Boost, +3 Action Boost, Keen Edge
13 AP Ninja 3d6 Sneak Attack, Shadow Vail, +3% Dodge
09 AP Knight Divine Might II (60 Duration)

Critical Damage
A Dance of flowers
Hail of Blows

Strength
18 Base
07 Level Ups
05 Tome
10 Item
01 Exceptional
13 Insight (Divine Might)
01 Race (Helf)
02 Class
01 Destiny
05 Primal Scream (Some one else is bound to Scream)
11 Power Surge (8+3 Human Action Boost)
02 Ship
02 Yugo
78 Total

Main Hand Damage Mod
33 Strength
08 Weapon Enchantment
10 Deadly
06 Fury
04 Kensai
04 Fighter Feat
05 Power Attack
04 Planar Focus
75 Total

Off Hand Damage Mod
16 Strength
08 Weapon Enchantment
10 Deadly
06 Fury
04 Kensai
04 Fighter Feat
05 Power Attack
04 Planar Focus
01 Tempest
58 Total

Damage Effects
18.50 Sneak Attack (3d6 Ninja + 8 Tharnes)
13.50 Phlebotomizing
07.00 Elemental Damage (2d6 Red Slot)
07.00 Ravagers Set
09.25 Sense Weakness
06.50 Tunnel Vision
61.75 Total

Double Strike
03% Black Dragon Set
03% Hail of Blows Twist
05% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
09% Epic Past Life Martial x3
08% Skirmisher's Bracers
02% Strike With No Thought
30% Total

Off Hand Double Strike
10% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
10% Total

Base Weapon Damage
2.5[W] Balizarde Base
1.5[W] A Dance of Flowers
4.0[W] Total

Seeker
10 Item
06 LD T3
03 Enhancement
05 Exceptional
24 Total

Crit Profile
15-18/x3
19-20/x5 (Earth Stance, Overwhelming Critical)

Avg Damage Main Hand
4d8 + 75 with 61.75 Effect Damage
273.61
Human Damage Boost 328.33

Avg Damage Off Hand
4d8 + 58 with 61.75 Effect Damage
240.46
Human Damage Boost 288.55

Attacks Per Min Main Hand
132.88 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*0.15))*1.3
173.32 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*1.3

Attacks Per Min Off Hand
112.43 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*0.15))*1.1
146.65 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*1.1



Ranger
12 Helf Damage Boost, +1 STR, 10% Hamp, 2d6 Sneak Attack
41 Tempest Capstone, +2 STR, +3 Seeker, +3% Dodge, +3 Relex, Deflect Arrow 2 Seconds, Whirling Blade IV, Haste Boost
24 Stalker 4d6 Sneak Attack, 20 Positive Energy, +3 FE Hit and Damage

Critical Damage
Sword of Virtue
Hail of Blows

Strength
18 Base
07 Level Ups
05 Tome
10 Item
01 Exceptional
03 Insight
01 Race (Human)
02 Class
02 Destiny
05 Primal Scream (Some one else will scream)
02 Ship
02 Yugo
60 Total

Main Hand Damage Mod
25 Strength
08 Weapon Enchantment
10 Deadly
02 Rams Might
06 Fury
13 Favored Enemy
05 Power Attack
04 Planar Focus
04 Tempest
06 Sword of Virtue
83 Total

Off Hand Damage Mod
12 Strength
08 Weapon Enchantment
10 Deadly
02 Rams Might
06 Fury
13 Favored Enemy
05 Power Attack
04 Planar Focus
04 Tempest
06 Sword of Virtue
70 Total

Damage Effects
25.50 Sneak Attack (5d6 Deepwood + 8 Tharnes)
13.50 Phlebotomizing
07.00 Elemental Damage (2d6 Red Slot)
07.00 Ravagers Set
09.25 Sense Weakness
06.50 Tunnel Vision
68.75 Total

Double Strike
03% Black Dragon Set
03% Hail of Blows Twist
05% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
09% Epic Past Life Martial x3
08% Skirmisher's Bracers
02% Strike With No Thought
05% Whirlwind
35% Total

Off Hand Double Strike
10% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
25% Capstone
35% Total

Base Weapon Damage
2.5[W] Balizard Base


Seeker
10 Item
06 LD T3
03 Enhancement
05 Exceptional
24 Total

Crit Profile
15-18/x3
19-20/x4 (Overwhelming Critical)

Avg Damage Main Hand
2.5d8 + 83 with 68.75 Effect Damage
270.88
Human Damage Boost 325.06

Avg Damage Off Hand
2.5d8 + 70 with 61.47 Effect Damage
246.83
Human Damage Boost 296.20

Attacks Per Min Main Hand
137.99 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*0.15))*1.35
179.98 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*1.35

Attacks Per Min Off Hand
137.99 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*0.15))*1.35
179.98 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*1.35



Found the Error in these numbers I had computed the Rangers base damage with the wrong numbers here is the corrected results.

Ranger w/ FE
DPS: 1083.60, 1300.32, 1413.39, 1696.07

Ranger w/o FE
DPS: 985.67, 1182.80, 1285.66, 1542.79



Ranger
12 Helf Damage Boost, +1 STR, 10% Hamp, 2d6 Sneak Attack
41 Tempest Capstone, +2 STR, +3 Seeker, +3% Dodge, +3 Relex, Deflect Arrow 2 Seconds, Whirling Blade IV, Haste Boost
24 Stalker 4d6 Sneak Attack, 20 Positive Energy, +3 FE Hit and Damage

Critical Damage
Sword of Virtue
Hail of Blows

Strength
18 Base
07 Level Ups
05 Tome
10 Item
01 Exceptional
03 Insight
01 Race (Human)
02 Class
02 Destiny
05 Primal Scream (Some one else will scream)
02 Ship
02 Yugo
60 Total

Main Hand Damage Mod
25 Strength
08 Weapon Enchantment
10 Deadly
02 Rams Might
06 Fury
13 Favored Enemy
05 Power Attack
04 Planar Focus
04 Tempest
06 Sword of Virtue
83 Total

Off Hand Damage Mod
12 Strength
08 Weapon Enchantment
10 Deadly
02 Rams Might
06 Fury
13 Favored Enemy
05 Power Attack
04 Planar Focus
04 Tempest
06 Sword of Virtue
70 Total

Damage Effects
25.50 Sneak Attack (5d6 Deepwood + 8 Tharnes)
13.50 Phlebotomizing
07.00 Elemental Damage (2d6 Red Slot)
07.00 Ravagers Set
09.25 Sense Weakness
06.50 Tunnel Vision
68.75 Total

Double Strike
03% Black Dragon Set
03% Hail of Blows Twist
05% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
09% Epic Past Life Martial x3
08% Skirmisher's Bracers
02% Strike With No Thought
05% Whirlwind
35% Total

Off Hand Double Strike
10% Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
25% Capstone
35% Total

Base Weapon Damage
2.5[W] Balizard Base


Seeker
10 Item
06 LD T3
03 Enhancement
05 Exceptional
24 Total

Crit Profile
15-18/x3
19-20/x4 (Overwhelming Critical)

Avg Damage Main Hand
2.5d8 + 83 with 68.75 Effect Damage
248.15
Human Damage Boost 297.78

Avg Damage Off Hand
2.5d8 + 70 with 61.47 Effect Damage
226.70
Human Damage Boost 272.04

Attacks Per Min Main Hand
137.99 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*0.15))*1.35
179.98 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*1.35

Attacks Per Min Off Hand
137.99 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*0.15))*1.35
179.98 = 86.66(1+(1.1965*(0.15+0.30)))*1.35

Teh_Troll
02-05-2014, 09:01 AM
Am I reading that right . . . againt it's 5 FEs the 20 ranger will beat the 12/6/2 kensai?

Wipey
02-05-2014, 09:05 AM
Derp. All that MATH ™ and I still don't know the answer.
Should we stop playing rangers or not ?
Please advise.

Teh_Troll
02-05-2014, 09:06 AM
Derp. All that MATH ™ and I still don't know the answer.
Should we stop playing rangers or not ?
Please advise.

No, they have Cure Serious Wounds. Means you can hjeal meh.

regarding whatever i need to get my 12/6/2 to cap with the full gear in the destiny of my choice to see how it holds up. the DPS feels stupidly better than the 18/1/1 and the 18/1/1 main advantage is fixed in the next patch (zillion hastes boost from both Tempest and Kensai, sure the 12/6/2 could do it but it no way in hell can afford the AP to do so).

Survivability is close, while reconstruct hits for more the 18/1/1 has more healing options. Pretty much the the only thing the 18/1/1 has going for it are trap skills? Okay, it has better bow damage because you can fit in sniper shot (another thing that the 12/6/2 cannot afford).

I'm looking forward to seeing how ranger 20s perform with the off-hand DS-fixed. Now if only they'd fix Character copy on Lamania so we could actually test stuff properly.

Grailhawk
02-05-2014, 09:28 AM
Am I reading that right . . . againt it's 5 FEs the 20 ranger will beat the 12/6/2 kensai?

Its looks to me like it's possible, a real test is needed, but I'm not sure it will be worth it.

The Ranger in these set ups is a lot more of a glass cannon with less PRR and Dodge then the Fighter and not enough Healing Amp to get over 300 with CSW so to actually make the Ranger playable he's going to need to give up more. But I would say Pure Rangers are in a good place compared to all other pure classes.

Teh_Troll
02-05-2014, 09:46 AM
Its looks to me like it's possible, a real test is needed, but I'm not sure it will be worth it.

The Ranger in these set ups is a lot more of a glass cannon with less PRR and Dodge then the Fighter and not enough Healing Amp to get over 300 with CSW so to actually make the Ranger playable he's going to need to give up more. But I would say Pure Rangers are in a good place compared to all other pure classes.

That pretty much kills it right there.

But . . . as I mentioned above the 12/6/2 BF really can't fit in Sniper Shot without gimping other stuff, the ranger can. You might be able to strike some balance in actual game play doing so.

Arlathen
02-05-2014, 05:36 PM
That pretty much kills it right there.But . . . as I mentioned above the 12/6/2 BF really can't fit in Sniper Shot without gimping other stuff, the ranger can. You might be able to strike some balance in actual game play doing so.

There's many ways to crack the defensive Egg.

My particular newly TR'd Ranger 20 wannabe has 3 Paladin past lives, for a start. Not everyone is going to have them, admittedly, but on my character I will :) In terms of PRR, I think the Ranger will be close to the Kensai, 6pts off from my guesstimations. Will be carrying a bucket of Displacement clickies as well tho lol.

And Healing? CSW is what, 3D6+6+CL (Max15), 31.5Avg Healing.

Some Rough extras on that:
24 Implement Spell Power
134 Devotion Red Augment
23 Heal Skill
10 Wisdom
60 Deepwood Sniper Innates / Increased Empathy / Versatile Empathy
75 Empower Heal
= 326 Devotion Spell Power

100% Heal Base
15% Paladin Past Lives
10% Half-Elf
20% Item
10% Guild Ship
= 168% Heal Amp

= 225pt Cure Serious Wounds. *Shrug* That'll do me. As long as I've got SP, there's no harm in a follow up CMW to top it up some more if needed.

Real areas of concern for me at the moment, defensively, are Dodge and only 10% Item-based Incorporeal.

Edit: I'll most definitly be sporting a Seal of Avithoul on my Ranger, so with Exposing Strike (melee Sniper Shot) I'll be proccing lots of Deception which as you've already mentioned should help defensively ("Dont hit me! Hit the Rogue instead!") :P

Arlathen
02-05-2014, 05:40 PM
Derp. All that MATH ™ and I still don't know the answer.
Should we stop playing rangers or not ?
Please advise.

Didn't everyone stop playing Rangers already to pick up a Centered Kensai? Oh. Ok.

There's hope for some of you yet. Except Troll, he's beyond help :P

Grailhawk
02-05-2014, 05:44 PM
There's many ways to crack the defensive Egg.

My particular newly TR'd Ranger 20 wannabe has 3 Paladin past lives, for a start. Not everyone is going to have them, admittedly, but on my character I will :) In terms of PRR, I think the Ranger will be close to the Kensai, 6pts off from my guesstimations. Will be carrying a bucket of Displacement clickies as well tho lol.

And Healing? CSW is what, 3D6+6+CL (Max15), 31.5Avg Healing.

Some Rough extras on that:
24 Implement Spell Power
134 Devotion Red Augment
23 Heal Skill
10 Wisdom
60 Deepwood Sniper Innates / Increased Empathy / Versatile Empathy7
5 Empower Heal
= 326 Devotion Spell Power

100% Heal Base
15% Paladin Past Lives
10% Half-Elf
20% Item
10% Guild Ship
= 168% Heal Amp

= 225pt Cure Serious Wounds. *Shrug* That'll do me. As long as I've got SP, there's no harm in a follow up CMW to top it up some more if needed.

Real areas of concern for me at the moment, defensively, are Dodge and only 10% Item-based Incorporeal.

Edit: I'll most definitly be sporting a Seal of Avithoul on my Ranger, so with Exposing Strike (melee Sniper Shot) I'll be proccing lots of Deception which as you've already mentioned should help defensively ("Dont hit me! Hit the Rogue instead!") :P

If you slot that ring you will lose 20% Hamp or Ravagers and that's enough to fall behind the kensai in the math, hell slotting the devotion into a weapon will just shy.

IMO in practice the Ranger wont be able to beat the centered kensai but he will be close enough to probably not matter much to anyone.

We'll see we need real live tests at this point.

Arlathen
02-05-2014, 05:55 PM
Found the Error in these numbers I had computed the Rangers base damage with the wrong numbers here is the corrected results.

Ranger w/ FE
DPS: 1083.60, 1300.32, 1413.39, 1696.07

Ranger w/o FE
DPS: 985.67, 1182.80, 1285.66, 1542.79



Just a couple of gotchas I spotted:


1. Still looks like your basing both builds in FotW? Can drop the comment about Primal Scream then :)


2. Did you calculate Keen Edge in for the Kensai build? Your listing 15-18/x3 In the Critical Breakdown. Shouldn't that be 13-18/x3?


3. There's no Rams Might in the Ranger Strength Calculation, only the Weapon Damage bonus is showing in the right places.


4. Need to remove Strike with no Thought in the Ranger Doublestrike list.


5. Ranger Build should really be 6D6 Sneak Attack Dice - 2D6 for Half-Elf, 4D6 for DWS.


6. I would give both builds the opportunity of +13 Damage from Seal of Avithoul over Tharne's.


7. I'd be tempted to change a Twist to Improved Power Attack instead of Critical Damage, since both builds are in FotW. It might be less DPS, but I think it would work out more. Choose on best case scenario for each build as people would only tailor it that way anyway.


But really, I would prefer to base both builds in LD and see where the numbers leave the builds. I want to play around with a Ranger with Masters Blitz :D

Arlathen
02-05-2014, 05:58 PM
IMO in practice the Ranger wont be able to beat the centered kensai but he will be close enough to probably not matter much to anyone.

We'll see we need real live tests at this point.

Agreed. I was originally asking if the 20 Ranger was just 'viable' for EEs or even 'Competitive' for EEs alongside Kensai's. Who wins out by a few percentage points doesn't actually matter that much too me.

Wipey
02-05-2014, 06:10 PM
Didn't everyone stop playing Rangers already to pick up a Centered Kensai? Oh. Ok.

There's hope for some of you yet. Except Troll, he's beyond help :P
I was just yanking your chain guys, doing fine on mine thanks :)
And centered kenseis can go and ... away.

Eth
02-06-2014, 02:09 AM
and the 18/1/1 main advantage is fixed in the next patch (zillion hastes boost from both Tempest and Kensai, sure the 12/6/2 could do it but it no way in hell can afford the AP to do so).


We should start a petition to fix the fighter haste boost to 30s@tier 3 (which it says, but doesn't) - back to back haste boost activation in Fury :D

Personally I already dropped ranger haste boost on live to see how it works.
Picked up 40% sprint boost and also picked up 30% damage boost from DWS (which is practically my replacement for the missing haste boost).

I probably won't even change back until the update. Sprint boost is so addictive.

BOgre
02-06-2014, 02:37 AM
i miss my sprint boost very much. specially in places like abbot when you need that extra Run AWAY to get on an island or FoT kiting undead. I'll be not too terribly upset to get 'forced' to repurchase it. and the change does make sense.

Eth
02-06-2014, 03:53 AM
i miss my sprint boost very much. specially in places like abbot when you need that extra Run AWAY to get on an island or FoT kiting undead. I'll be not too terribly upset to get 'forced' to repurchase it. and the change does make sense.

It wasn't something exclusive to ranger anyway. Any classsplit with 1 lvl of fighter can make use of double haste boost.
You can even use the LD haste boost as secondary, if your class doesn't offer one.

Arlathen
02-06-2014, 06:36 AM
To be perfectly honest I'm just happy Tempest got Haste boost in the first place. It maybe silly expensive compared to Kensai, but it does mean your not wanting for a Haste Boost until you get it in an Epic Destiny at 20+.

Eth
02-06-2014, 07:10 AM
To be perfectly honest I'm just happy Tempest got Haste boost in the first place. It maybe silly expensive compared to Kensai, but it does mean your not wanting for a Haste Boost until you get it in an Epic Destiny at 20+.

I don't know. In heroics I'd pick sprint boost over haste boost every time.

Inoukchuk
02-11-2014, 01:41 PM
Someone should also compare 9druid/6monk/3ranger with full doublestrike and attack speed using wraps. I'm thinking it attacks faster than the ranger (not that this means higher dps necessarily).

Something else to remember is that in addition to twf suffering when using cleaves and any single hand attack (like stunning blow), doublestrike suffers most of the same problems. I think twf is just better off in fotw.

unbongwah
02-11-2014, 02:24 PM
Someone should also compare 9druid/6monk/3ranger with full doublestrike and attack speed using wraps.
What would you do with the last two lvls?

Grailhawk
02-11-2014, 02:48 PM
Someone should also compare 9druid/6monk/3ranger with full doublestrike and attack speed using wraps. I'm thinking it attacks faster than the ranger (not that this means higher dps necessarily).

Something else to remember is that in addition to twf suffering when using cleaves and any single hand attack (like stunning blow), doublestrike suffers most of the same problems. I think twf is just better off in fotw.

There's no point in comparing that with the current "bug" that thing attacks faster than any other build period.

But since numbers are fun.
Pure Ranger 33%/35% DS 100% Off-hand = 5.96 ASP
Wind Monk 38%/10% DS 100% Off-hand = 6.10 ASP
Wolf 56%/10% DS 100% Off-Hand = 8.14 ASP
Wolf 56%/10% DS 0% Off-Hand = 4.78 ASP

The Druid may not win the DPS race (though it could but I'm not taking the time to figure it out) it with out question can beat the ASP.

Inoukchuk
02-11-2014, 02:48 PM
What would you do with the last two lvls?

Not sure it matters, probably 2 more ranger or more likely 2 more druid.

Should get 30% attack speed boost and lots od doublestrike.

Ktaria
03-23-2014, 08:35 PM
That pretty much kills it right there.

But . . . as I mentioned above the 12/6/2 BF really can't fit in Sniper Shot without gimping other stuff, the ranger can. You might be able to strike some balance in actual game play doing so.



Old player coming back after 2-3 years here with a level 20 human 18Ranger/1Fighter/1Rogue char. Was wondering if you might be willing to share your 18/1/1 build as I am completely lost with all the changes since I played last. I was setup as a str Khopesh TWF build.

unbongwah
03-23-2014, 08:59 PM
Old player coming back after 2-3 years here with a level 20 human 18Ranger/1Fighter/1Rogue char. Was wondering if you might be willing to share your 18/1/1 build as I am completely lost with all the changes since I played last. I was setup as a str Khopesh TWF build.
See the Tempest Trapmonkey thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/423116-Tempest-Trapmonkey-for-new-players).