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View Full Version : Yeah some kinda monka rcher mix does 8 trillion on a crit yet let's nerf the bard



californiapiper
01-29-2014, 09:20 PM
Really?? Was it necessary when reaping the spell point song to make song on sustain individual target now?

Teh_Troll
01-29-2014, 10:06 PM
Really?? Was it necessary when reaping the spell point song to make song on sustain individual target now?

Because bards and paladins are over-powered.

LOOON375
01-29-2014, 10:33 PM
Bards aren't as bad off as some are making them out to be.

This isn't a nerf, it is now working as intended. When it was affecting multiple targets, it was a bug.

Different strokes.

stoopid_cowboy
01-29-2014, 10:39 PM
Because bards and paladins are over-powered.

You forgot Barbarians

A class that does mediocre damage and kills themselves in the process with virtually no way to hjeal themselves. Totally overpowered and needs njerfed ASAP!

Qhualor
01-29-2014, 10:52 PM
You forgot Barbarians

A class that does mediocre damage and kills themselves in the process with virtually no way to hjeal themselves. Totally overpowered and needs njerfed ASAP!

huh? news to me that barbs do mediocre damage.

Qhualor
01-29-2014, 10:54 PM
I was told in another thread that paid for classes should be better than free classes.

MadCookieQueen
01-30-2014, 08:51 AM
Really?? Was it necessary when reaping the spell point song to make song on sustain individual target now?

But when you have 30+ songs and you only use half of them, expending 2 songs to give the healers back their life saving valuable spell points is not a big deal. It's not a Bard nerf it's a nanny bot nerf...think of it that way.

Regenerating an entire party's spell points...now that was a bit on the broken side. I play a pretty hardcore bard and honestly, the change didn't bother me....it might have annoyed the heck out of the other people in the raid because they weren't getting a free SP pot out of me....but meh, not my bagel.

If caster/healer/fail-at-managing-my-own-SP needs a song, they will ask and if you can expend one...do it. It's only polite. If you can't afford to give them ANOTHER song because they won't behave themselves and depend on you to do their thinking for them...then tell them.

Bards are not nannybots and don't let anyone treat you that way or fall for that trap...unless you really REALLY only designed a Bard to be that way...well then..jack the songs and target the worthy masses, while you sit on the sidelines and hjeal the people.



*NOTE: I am well aware I referenced Arcane Might in my little rant here...but you know that's the one I hear more complaints about.



Also one day the monkchers will get their due and then...I will laugh ^^

JOTMON
01-30-2014, 09:11 AM
But when you have 30+ songs and you only use half of them, expending 2 songs to give the healers back their life saving valuable spell points is not a big deal. It's not a Bard nerf it's a nanny bot nerf...think of it that way.

Regenerating an entire party's spell points...now that was a bit on the broken side. I play a pretty hardcore bard and honestly, the change didn't bother me....it might have annoyed the heck out of the other people in the raid because they weren't getting a free SP pot out of me....but meh, not my bagel.

If caster/healer/fail-at-managing-my-own-SP needs a song, they will ask and if you can expend one...do it. It's only polite. If you can't afford to give them ANOTHER song because they won't behave themselves and depend on you to do their thinking for them...then tell them.

Bards are not nannybots and don't let anyone treat you that way or fall for that trap...unless you really REALLY only designed a Bard to be that way...well then..jack the songs and target the worthy masses, while you sit on the sidelines and hjeal the people.



Also one day the monkchers will get their due and then...I will laugh ^^

Its a song. everyone who hears the song should benefit from the song.

Without compilations the song time to sing one at a time per person is wasteful. buffs run out before songs are finished.
This in itself killed any desire for me to continue to play the bard class.

Chasing after the party singing mediocre one off buffs is a fail in class development and evolution.
The Bard songs should be compiling buffs into their songs as they level thus higher level the bard song give more all encompassing buffs with longer durations.
Could even have it cost more song points to compile songs.

Lonnbeimnech
01-30-2014, 09:12 AM
huh? news to me that barbs do mediocre damage.

Yeah. If you can't fit in manyshot you are now mediocre at best. Doesn't matter if you can crit for 22k in dreadnaught, you have to switch to fury and hit 15k with manyshot once every 2 min to be considered top tier now, for some bizarre reason...

MadCookieQueen
01-30-2014, 09:40 AM
Its a song. everyone who hears the song should benefit from the song.

Without compilations the song time to sing one at a time per person is wasteful. buffs run out before songs are finished.
This in itself killed any desire for me to continue to play the bard class.

Chasing after the party singing mediocre one off buffs is a fail in class development and evolution.
The Bard songs should be compiling buffs into their songs as they level thus higher level the bard song give more all encompassing buffs with longer durations.
Could even have it cost more song points to compile songs.


If that's the case...then where's the complaint for Skaldic Rage...it's a battle cry song...shouldn't everyone get it? Song of Capering...shouldn't all masses stop and dance...I mean all the other bad guys can hear it. What about Arcane Might? I'm sorry but that's just a bad excuse....especially in the face of so many other one target songs.


Like I said...if they need it, they will ask. Also who to target with it is you know...player thinking...crazy idea! If I have to use it on other people...either I get asked for it or I'm helping to prop up the tank in a raid.


Repeat after me...I'm not a nannybot. I'm not a nannybot.


So this "nerf" stopped you from playing a Bard...wow. Honestly why? Outside of not being the fountain spring of free healing for the party...what did it do to you? How did this not make playing a bard and all their other spiffies not as cool? I'm seriously curious about this.


For an AoE effect you want it to expend more songs? So what...should it be song per person in party? 3 songs? A million songs? What's the golden number here? Then should I also be able to spend 10 songs and get every song to merge together into only glorious little button? All to save me a couple seconds? Honestly that's not realistic...however if they did that... I want to see a Bard animation where they play a tuba, accordion, drum and cymbals while marching up and down through the party.


http://i.neoseeker.com/mgv/60953/953/104/pinkie_pie_marching_band_tuba_display.gif

AzB
01-30-2014, 10:06 AM
If that's the case...then where's the complaint for Skaldic Rage...it's a battle cry song...shouldn't everyone get it? Song of Capering...shouldn't all masses stop and dance...I mean all the other bad guys can hear it. What about Arcane Might? I'm sorry but that's just a bad excuse....especially in the face of so many other one target songs.


Like I said...if they need it, they will ask. Also who to target with it is you know...player thinking...crazy idea! If I have to use it on other people...either I get asked for it or I'm helping to prop up the tank in a raid.


Repeat after me...I'm not a nannybot. I'm not a nannybot.


So this "nerf" stopped you from playing a Bard...wow. Honestly why? Outside of not being the fountain spring of free healing for the party...what did it do to you? How did this not make playing a bard and all their other spiffies not as cool? I'm seriously curious about this.


For an AoE effect you want it to expend more songs? So what...should it be song per person in party? 3 songs? A million songs? What's the golden number here? Then should I also be able to spend 10 songs and get every song to merge together into only glorious little button? All to save me a couple seconds? Honestly that's not realistic...however if they did that... I want to see a Bard animation where they play a tuba, accordion, drum and cymbals while marching up and down through the party.


http://i.neoseeker.com/mgv/60953/953/104/pinkie_pie_marching_band_tuba_display.gif

Meh, it's a pretty pointless song anyway. I saw a wizard the other night with almost 5000sp. What is 2sp per tick going to do for him? Especially when shrines are so incredibly abundant.

The last time someone in the party asked for the sp song (as they called it) was quite a while ago in Coal Chamber. The one quest where casters actually have to budget their sp. I sing it for myself, of course, as it allows me to put absolutely no focus into increasing my sp pool and I never run out. Although, that has to do with the fact that in epics there aren't many spells I even bother casting... except maybe heal and remove curse.

I gave up on songs for the party (except raids) no one seems to notice or care that I'm not singing. They're not getting +2 to all stats or +4 to hit. All they want is deadly weapons. I'll usually help out a cleric that is really trying to be a team player, as they seem to be a disappearing species. Kinda like bards.

I do try to give some love to barbs, at least the ones that are trying to play them well. I try to keep them haged and healed while I try to keep up with them. And yeah, while they may do a lot of damage, it's a difficult class to play successfully.

But mostly my bard has morphed into a perfect solo toon. Decent dps in LD or Fury, self buffing and self healing, cc, and umd. I can literally do any quest I want very easily and efficiently, even it may be a little slower than the classes with mass insta kills.

And there's the irony. A bard soloing. I think that's a pretty clear indication that the class, and quite possibly the game, is broken.

MadCookieQueen
01-30-2014, 10:39 AM
But mostly my bard has morphed into a perfect solo toon. Decent dps in LD or Fury, self buffing and self healing, cc, and umd. I can literally do any quest I want very easily and efficiently, even it may be a little slower than the classes with mass insta kills.

And there's the irony. A bard soloing. I think that's a pretty clear indication that the class, and quite possibly the game, is broken.


I wouldn't call that as a point to say the class and/or game is broken.

You can solo with any toon if you play smart....granted EE might whomp your tail end something fierce but many people don't solo EEs and if they can solo an EE...more power to them!

So if we follow the thoughts here...then...dang...all classes are broken and the game needs a hundred times more enemies and traps should do a thousand points of damage on normal ^^

bennyson
01-30-2014, 10:51 AM
So if we follow the thoughts here...then...dang...all classes are broken and the game needs a hundred times more enemies and traps should do a thousand points of damage on normal ^^

Agree, nobody shouldn't even be able to SOLO raids, thats game-breaking, nor be able to do a raid with only 5 people who are not even the right roles.


Epic Normal: Easy

Epic Hard: a bit tricky

Epic Elite: RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!

katz
01-30-2014, 10:57 AM
Agree, nobody shouldn't even be able to SOLO raids, thats game-breaking, nor be able to do a raid with only 5 people who are not even the right roles.


wut?

MadCookieQueen
01-30-2014, 11:02 AM
Agree, nobody shouldn't even be able to SOLO raids, thats game-breaking, nor be able to do a raid with only 5 people who are not even the right roles.


Epic Normal: Easy

Epic Hard: a bit tricky

Epic Elite: RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!


The comment you quoted was sarcasm...but if you agree with my sarcasm...awesome!


Define "right roles" what is a right role? Is there only one type of party blend that we should focus on? More things I'm curious on here.

Qhualor
01-30-2014, 11:10 AM
Yeah. If you can't fit in manyshot you are now mediocre at best. Doesn't matter if you can crit for 22k in dreadnaught, you have to switch to fury and hit 15k with manyshot once every 2 min to be considered top tier now, for some bizarre reason...

People who think that shouldn't be allowed to post build advice. Why would a barb waste 3 feat slots when they can do a hell of a lot more damage consistently with DPS feats than with burst damage every 20 seconds and have to waste time constantly switching weapons? Bowbarians, sure. Its stuff like this that really skew DDO and give off the wrong thing about builds to other players.

Lonnbeimnech
01-30-2014, 11:38 AM
People who think that shouldn't be allowed to post build advice. Why would a barb waste 3 feat slots when they can do a hell of a lot more damage consistently with DPS feats than with burst damage every 20 seconds and have to waste time constantly switching weapons? Bowbarians, sure. Its stuff like this that really skew DDO and give off the wrong thing about builds to other players.

Seems to be the consensus on the forums. I don't understand it myself. Melee dps is still significantly higher than ranged dps, but for some reason you need manyshot or you're gimp, at least on the forums. In game, not so much.

AzB
01-30-2014, 12:34 PM
Seems to be the consensus on the forums. I don't understand it myself. Melee dps is still significantly higher than ranged dps, but for some reason you need manyshot or you're gimp, at least on the forums. In game, not so much.

Primarily because in EE melee is hard to keep alive without massive investment in defense. And even then sometimes it's still hard.

Ranged allows you to stand back and pew pew.

In PnP archers could stand back and pew pew with impewnunity, but not all the time. In fact, it was fairly rare.

AzB
01-30-2014, 12:37 PM
I wouldn't call that as a point to say the class and/or game is broken.

You can solo with any toon if you play smart....granted EE might whomp your tail end something fierce but many people don't solo EEs and if they can solo an EE...more power to them!

So if we follow the thoughts here...then...dang...all classes are broken and the game needs a hundred times more enemies and traps should do a thousand points of damage on normal ^^

My point was not that "hey, I can solo DDO even on the gimpest class". My points was that "hey, I can solo DDO on the one class that is designed from the ground up for team play". The fact that the class is also the gimpest class is a coincidence.

MadCookieQueen
01-30-2014, 12:53 PM
My point was not that "hey, I can solo DDO even on the gimpest class". My points was that "hey, I can solo DDO on the one class that is designed from the ground up for team play". The fact that the class is also the gimpest class is a coincidence.


I had a response (all based on pen and paper DnD and the original design of the Bard class) and nicely typed words and things...then I realized I was just going to be feeding the close-minded troll here.

^^

JOTMON
02-04-2014, 11:15 AM
For an AoE effect you want it to expend more songs? So what...should it be song per person in party? 3 songs? A million songs? What's the golden number here? Then should I also be able to spend 10 songs and get every song to merge together into only glorious little button? All to save me a couple seconds? Honestly that's not realistic...however if they did that... I want to see a Bard animation where they play a tuba, accordion, drum and cymbals while marching up and down through the party.



Whats not realistic about it?
A higher level bard should be able to provide stronger buffs and influence more people with less effort.

Higher level casters can upgrade their spells like single target deathward ....Mass deathward, Protection from elements.. mass protection from elements....
Casting animations are quick... how many buff spells would be cast if they had a 30 second casting animation per party member and only lasted 5 minutes...

Aashrym
02-04-2014, 12:29 PM
I was told in another thread that paid for classes should be better than free classes.


It's a good thing we know better. Considering how much I've paid to play my "free" classes compared to those "paid" classes I would expect some of those "free" classes to get sudden buff based on the paid for logic. ;)



Song of Capering...shouldn't all masses stop and dance...I mean all the other bad guys can hear it.


I did when bugged too. It was awesome AoE.


On topic: Bug fixes are not nerfs. WAI is WAI. I wouldn't mind seeing some changes to class but having mass regen isn't needed; the mass SP proc on a higher tier works well enough for me.

MadCookieQueen
02-04-2014, 03:07 PM
Whats not realistic about it?
A higher level bard should be able to provide stronger buffs and influence more people with less effort.

Higher level casters can upgrade their spells like single target deathward ....Mass deathward, Protection from elements.. mass protection from elements....
Casting animations are quick... how many buff spells would be cast if they had a 30 second casting animation per party member and only lasted 5 minutes...

Higher level Bards can and do provide stronger buffs and those buffs do affect the masses. Inspire Excellence anyone? Though not a buff Suggestion song does get a Mass Suggestion song version at later levels. Also some of the songs has passive additions to them...such as Song of Freedom, that you can only get at later levels. I'd like to note that Inspire Courage does upgrade as you level. Fascinate does affect more and more groups as you progress (assuming you take SS) The songs to evolve and they do get stronger.

Less effort? Really? Being epic and awesome is a hard job...and if you're an epic uber-famous Bard you have to work that much harder ^^

Which song has a 30 second "casting" duration? They've gotten shorter and hopefully even shorter...but even then...casting a spell can take a bit too...just most people use quicken. Also you can sing on the run...so no you don't' have to stand there and let everyone get into a big hug fest for the mass buff.

I like to cast my buffs (gh, fom, blur, rage, haste, displace, skaldic, divine might) and then as the group moves I begin to play...Courage, Excellence and Recklessness...by then we've engaged the first group (in like a minute). Works pretty well and if someone screams they need FoM...well then no biggie I jump out, hit a button and go back in. I dont' find it disruptive to my game play and it definitely doesn't make me a gimp.

Jasparion
02-04-2014, 04:41 PM
I was told in another thread that paid for classes should be better than free classes.

Mission accomplished.

Chai
02-07-2014, 04:22 PM
My point was not that "hey, I can solo DDO even on the gimpest class". My points was that "hey, I can solo DDO on the one class that is designed from the ground up for team play". The fact that the class is also the gimpest class is wrong.

ftfy.

Id put bard ahead of barbarian and paladin right now.

People fall into the DPS trap and dont look at anything else. They also fall into the EE trap and dont look at anything else. Most of the people who say bard is the gimpiest are saying that they do the least DPS in EE quests. While the paladin and barbarian are getting beat on by everything or kiting everything, the bard makes it all stand still, dances one and beats on it. Someone who is concerned with DPS in EE isnt going to call this powerful, but the fact that all those trash mobs just got trivialized is powerful. If someone wants to then kill assassins in EE, they can open with a CC weapon swing (stun, trip, lay waste, overwhelming force) then go to town. Problem with this is people dont have the patience for this, as the optimizers have all built toons that do not need to wait for a bard to CC the mobs before picking them off one at a time. To tell me this isnt powerful however....is laughable.

Bard needs some love. People who are saying its gimpy beyond rapair, arent addressing it correctly. A generalist class is not going to compete with specialist DPS classes/builds. It needs to have other ways to contribute, both in heroics and epics.

maddmatt70
02-07-2014, 04:36 PM
ftfy.

Id put bard ahead of barbarian and paladin right now.

People fall into the DPS trap and dont look at anything else. They also fall into the EE trap and dont look at anything else. Most of the people who say bard is the gimpiest are saying that they do the least DPS in EE quests. While the paladin and barbarian are getting beat on by everything or kiting everything, the bard makes it all stand still, dances one and beats on it. Someone who is concerned with DPS in EE isnt going to call this powerful, but the fact that all those trash mobs just got trivialized is powerful. If someone wants to then kill assassins in EE, they can open with a CC weapon swing (stun, trip, lay waste, overwhelming force) then go to town. Problem with this is people dont have the patience for this, as the optimizers have all built toons that do not need to wait for a bard to CC the mobs before picking them off one at a time. To tell me this isnt powerful however....is laughable.

Bard needs some love. People who are saying its gimpy beyond rapair, arent addressing it correctly. A generalist class is not going to compete with specialist DPS classes/builds. It needs to have other ways to contribute, both in heroics and epics.

You can make barbarians that are pretty self sufficient actually some examples are the pure dwarven barbarian (some fellow did a good job of solo what goes up with one) or splashing FVS levels for ameliorating strike. I have two manned a fair amount of end game ee with my barb now I was playing with one heck of a shiradi wizard but still I helped even keep him alive with my ameliorating smites and never died that I can remember. You can make pallys that do a fair amount of dps for example the pally monkchers or a pally that pulls out a bow for many shot and has good smites otherwise. Pallys can be really solid defensively. Bards have no dps option so they are last in the current game.

Chai
02-09-2014, 02:17 PM
You can make barbarians that are pretty self sufficient actually some examples are the pure dwarven barbarian (some fellow did a good job of solo what goes up with one) or splashing FVS levels for ameliorating strike. I have two manned a fair amount of end game ee with my barb now I was playing with one heck of a shiradi wizard but still I helped even keep him alive with my ameliorating smites and never died that I can remember. You can make pallys that do a fair amount of dps for example the pally monkchers or a pally that pulls out a bow for many shot and has good smites otherwise. Pallys can be really solid defensively. Bards have no dps option so they are last in the current game.

Bards have the same DPS options you just named. The other 2 options for DPS are FOW or LD. Both of which both can have. Youre also supporting my point by comparing only DPS. While that paladin is getting smashed by the rest of the mobs they aren't concentrating on, the bard makes them all stand still and wait their turn.

Bards make everyone line up and wait their turn, while a paladin doesn't even kill mobs, it wins by decision.

The fact that you have to have manyshot on a paladin to make it compete actually supports my point. The fact that you need 4 fvs levels on a barbarian to be self sufficient is bass ackward in this game where they have handed everyone else self sufficiency free of charge.

Bards need some love, but it needs to be in the bard dpt, not the min max optimizer must do insane DPS dpt.

MadCookieQueen
02-09-2014, 08:03 PM
Bards need some love, but it needs to be in the bard dpt, not the min max optimizer must do insane DPS dpt.



Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner folks!

maddmatt70
02-09-2014, 08:36 PM
Bards have the same DPS options you just named. The other 2 options for DPS are FOW or LD. Both of which both can have. Youre also supporting my point by comparing only DPS. While that paladin is getting smashed by the rest of the mobs they aren't concentrating on, the bard makes them all stand still and wait their turn.

Bards make everyone line up and wait their turn, while a paladin doesn't even kill mobs, it wins by decision.

The fact that you have to have manyshot on a paladin to make it compete actually supports my point. The fact that you need 4 fvs levels on a barbarian to be self sufficient is bass ackward in this game where they have handed everyone else self sufficiency free of charge.

Bards need some love, but it needs to be in the bard dpt, not the min max optimizer must do insane DPS dpt.

The game is about dps on EE as long as a character has enough to meet most of the various thresholds defensive thresholds and has some self sufficiency. Bards are lacking in terms of dps. An 18 paladin 2 monk with manyshot and high smite capabilities in Fury of the wild is better then anything a bard has dps wise. I can use 4 FVS levels or make a pure level 20 dwarven occult slayer barbarian and either or will meet the defensive thresholds. This making everything line up and wait their turn that you espouse bards can do is a waste of time in the current game. Give bards an ability to increase dps beyond what they currently do or dramatically increase a bard's own dps.

MadCookieQueen
02-10-2014, 07:34 AM
The game is about dps on EE as long as a character has enough to meet most of the various thresholds defensive thresholds and has some self sufficiency. Bards are lacking in terms of dps. An 18 paladin 2 monk with manyshot and high smite capabilities in Fury of the wild is better then anything a bard has dps wise. I can use 4 FVS levels or make a pure level 20 dwarven occult slayer barbarian and either or will meet the defensive thresholds. This making everything line up and wait their turn that you espouse bards can do is a waste of time in the current game. Give bards an ability to increase dps beyond what they currently do or dramatically increase a bard's own dps.


Seriously....I would easily challenge the DPS capabilities of a well built (keywords!) Bard. Now if you're going to compare a mix toon of awesome and demand that a pure bred Bard has to have the same DPS all while being pure...huh? what? Little insanity over there don't you think?

Shutting down a mob of terror and certain death is a waste of time? Saving the party from party wipe and letting them work through the trash mob without...you know....epic fail...is a waste of time? I have yet to meet anyone in game that thought it was a waste of time to spend a few extra minutes to play smart...to know when to take it a bit slow to have that shiny victory. Honestly...this is the thought process here?

And back with the "let's turn Bards into mass buffbots that people only want because they can make that super-toon-of-the-week" even more obnoxious? Bards are simply MORE THAN THE SUM OF THEIR BUFFS! (yes caps was necessary) Also with the right ED and twists the Bard can increase their DPS by a ton...you just have to plan it out and do lots of testing...lots of testing and be flexible and willing to change things out. (actually that last little bit applies to all toons)

Pure and simple truth: Bards are great in a party but you have to know HOW to play a Bard to make her truly sing and have fun. Even while they are in the process of needing love...if you can handle all that...when things get fixed it'll be even better ^^

Game on!