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Fafnir
01-23-2014, 06:01 PM
The Update 21 patch notes include:

Miscellaneous Changes:
The Monk's Quivering Palm ability is getting some revisions related to its DC, as part of investigation into balancing Death effects. Quivering Palm no longer benefits from Sundering bonuses. However, whenever an enemy saves vs. Quivering Palm, you get a stacking +4 bonus to your Quivering Palm DC. This stack is dispelled when you successfully kill someone with Quivering Palm. We are keeping an eye on these numbers and they may be changed in the future.
This is the full text of Quivering Palm:
Melee Attack: Deliver a fatal attack by sending waves of vibrations through your target. A successful Fortitude save negates this effect. (DC = 10 + 1/2 Monk Level + Wisdom Modifier). When an enemy saves vs. Quivering Palm, you gain a stacking +4 Perseverance bonus to your Quivering Palm DC until you kill an enemy with Quivering Palm (or 3 minutes pass)."

This clearly is a substantial change to the performance of monks.

Arianka
01-23-2014, 06:15 PM
Teh_Troll will b exstatic!

Enoach
01-23-2014, 06:39 PM
So ultimately what does this mean?

What is Lives current QP DC that can be reached?
What is LAMA's proposed change reducing it too? Loosing Sundering Items bonus (+10/+11), maybe Combat Mastery (+5/6)

So are we talking 75 DC (old) to 60 DC (new), with it still benefiting from Improved Sunder -3 Fort Save and also getting a +4 stacking DC bonus until something is killed with QP using Ki which is renewable by "hitting stuff"

You have to understand that I don't actually believe that an ability that has such a low cost to achieve should be greater than an ability that requires the dedication of feats and enhancements to achieve such as Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Favored Soul Instant Death spells.

What I see from this change is not an ability that has become useless, but one that now is tactical in nature but can still be good in a pinch. Of course it appears to be more effective with more Monk levels.

stoopid_cowboy
01-23-2014, 06:54 PM
What I see from this change is not an ability that has become useless, but one that now is tactical in nature but can still be good in a pinch. Of course it appears to be more effective with more Monk levels.

Most intelligent reply I have seen to the QP change so far!

Fafnir
01-23-2014, 07:24 PM
So ultimately what does this mean?

What is Lives current QP DC that can be reached?
What is LAMA's proposed change reducing it too? Loosing Sundering Items bonus (+10/+11), maybe Combat Mastery (+5/6)

So are we talking 75 DC (old) to 60 DC (new), with it still benefiting from Improved Sunder -3 Fort Save and also getting a +4 stacking DC bonus until something is killed with QP using Ki which is renewable by "hitting stuff"

You have to understand that I don't actually believe that an ability that has such a low cost to achieve should be greater than an ability that requires the dedication of feats and enhancements to achieve such as Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Favored Soul Instant Death spells.

What I see from this change is not an ability that has become useless, but one that now is tactical in nature but can still be good in a pinch. Of course it appears to be more effective with more Monk levels.

The distinction with caster instant kills is just that - they are casts, have long ranges, are available all the time without resource constraints. How many times playing a monk with casters in the group do you go running off to a mob and have it dead before you get there. The highest level EEs were the only place that this didn't happen reliably.

I can say that with this change, QP or building around QP is a fairly useless exercise. Sunder sunder sunder, qp qp boom. You will be an old man by the time that goes off. You are far, far better off changing to an actual DPS toon and just killing the mob.

LOOON375
01-23-2014, 07:28 PM
changing to an actual DPS toon and just killing the mob.Like the rest of us mere mortals that don't play monks. lol

Enoach
01-23-2014, 07:33 PM
The distinction with caster instant kills is just that - they are casts, have long ranges, are available all the time without resource constraints. How many times playing a monk with casters in the group do you go running off to a mob and have it dead before you get there. The highest level EEs were the only place that this didn't happen reliably.

I can say that with this change, QP or building around QP is a fairly useless exercise. Sunder sunder sunder, qp qp boom. You will be an old man by the time that goes off. You are far, far better off changing to an actual DPS toon and just killing the mob.

Outside of drinking potions for SP, caster spells do have a Limited number of casts - Lets leave the DDO store out of the discussion for just a bit and get to the root. What will the new DC be? Will it be higher than say a Wizard that has dedicated 2 feats for DCs, and feats for Spell penetration (because QP does not have an SR check) as well as points in enhancements for the purpose of DCs?

Will it be slightly less? Or will it be significantly less?

If is also not true that a caster is out of harms way when they cast, the terrain has a lot to do with how relatively safe they are, as does the Dodge/Other miss bonuses dictate how save a Monk is while in combat.

Ki is renewable without the DDO store or buying Potions off the AH or using a stack of potions collected over 6 years of playing.

So again, lets not focus on how big the drop in DC is, but in what the END DC is with the proposed new calculation... Is it still greater than a Caster or is it significantly less?

Fafnir
01-23-2014, 07:49 PM
Outside of drinking potions for SP, caster spells do have a Limited number of casts - Lets leave the DDO store out of the discussion for just a bit and get to the root. What will the new DC be? Will it be higher than say a Wizard that has dedicated 2 feats for DCs, and feats for Spell penetration (because QP does not have an SR check) as well as points in enhancements for the purpose of DCs?

Will it be slightly less? Or will it be significantly less?

If is also not true that a caster is out of harms way when they cast, the terrain has a lot to do with how relatively safe they are, as does the Dodge/Other miss bonuses dictate how save a Monk is while in combat.

Ki is renewable without the DDO store or buying Potions off the AH or using a stack of potions collected over 6 years of playing.

So again, lets not focus on how big the drop in DC is, but in what the END DC is with the proposed new calculation... Is it still greater than a Caster or is it significantly less?

Yes, I'm sure a few thousand SP makes you really worried about not having SP to insta kill at max range.

Enoach
01-23-2014, 07:54 PM
Yes, I'm sure a few thousand SP makes you really worried about not having SP to insta kill at max range.

Fine, I concede that point that the limit is high...

Now what is the DC of QP with the proposed change? Will it be in the 40s? 50s? 60s? still...

Keep in mind a DEV has confirmed that the +4 for a failed QP stacks with itself...

Fafnir
01-23-2014, 08:05 PM
Fine, I concede that point that the limit is high...

Now what is the DC of QP with the proposed change? Will it be in the 40s? 50s? 60s? still...

Keep in mind a DEV has confirmed that the +4 for a failed QP stacks with itself...

The new QP will be brilliant on a mob with a bajillion HPs but can still be QPed... fail again and again.. again and again... until you get it. Fairly unlikely scenario, of course.

They should just bring back Epic Ward imo. Have no one insta kill. I preferred combat in that era of the game anyway.

Enoach
01-23-2014, 08:13 PM
The new QP will be brilliant on a mob with a bajillion HPs but can still be QPed... fail again and again.. again and again... until you get it. Fairly unlikely scenario, of course.

They should just bring back Epic Ward imo. Have no one insta kill. I preferred combat in that era of the game anyway.

But what will your new DC be? The starting point, not the +4 stacking after several tries.

See it is hard to argue that you are getting the short end of the stick if your DC is now in line with a MAX DC Caster build. Show that it will be like a level 15 character running a Epic Quest then maybe I will understand why you feel this is bad. What I see is that this change will bring you into the mid to high 50s, which without level 28 gear is where a large population of DC caster types currently sit.

Violith
01-23-2014, 09:01 PM
But what will your new DC be? The starting point, not the +4 stacking after several tries.

See it is hard to argue that you are getting the short end of the stick if your DC is now in line with a MAX DC Caster build. Show that it will be like a level 15 character running a Epic Quest then maybe I will understand why you feel this is bad. What I see is that this change will bring you into the mid to high 50s, which without level 28 gear is where a large population of DC caster types currently sit.



I believe someone said live is ~80 max.
Monk Quivering Palm:
18 base (does anyone start with this?)
7 levels (does anyone put all 7 here?)
4 class enh
1 racial enh
11 item
3 insight
1 exceptional
5 tome
4 Ocean IV
6 epic destiny
2 ship
2 Yugo (more of a problem with -4 Reflex than the -50% Fortification on the Int pots)
____
64 (+27 modifier)

10 base
10 half monk levels
27 Wis
???
____
47

What's still added to this?
The old value also gained
10 Shatter (could be higher, but I'm not sure how high these go, and what's reasonable to expect)
6 Combat Mastery
6 Legendary Tactics
2 Tactician
3 Grand Master of Flowers inates
3 fighter PL
____
77 (racial choice could bump this up a little, as could splashing 2 fighter)

mind you, Shattering can go up to 15 (although I've only seen a +11) So currently it could've went to 82 with that loadout. even higher if splashed fighter due to Tactics (lose +1dc from the missing 2 monk levels, and tactics can net you +3. for a netgain of +2) so 84 or so max. This 'nerf' is merely removing the sundering, so going from 84(82 for monk) to 69(67) Which is still in range of spell DC maxes, higher then assassinate max. And ontop of that, they got a BUFF that is a STACKING +4 whenever it fails to kill something, dev didnt say how much it stacked, but did say it could stack with itself, so multiple times. So a fully decked out QP monk can still QP any and everything they currently can, it just might take 1-2 more tries.

Xorlandu
01-23-2014, 09:12 PM
Really comes down to what still boosts it after the change. Before the change on my wis 18m/2f I could get the dc into the low-mid 70's depending on destiny but a lot of that is coming from sunder/tactics increases +10 sunder item, +5 exceptional combat mastery, +6 legendary tactics, +2 tactician, +3 fighter tactics, 2 fighter past lives, +3 gmof bonus. If it no longer benefits from sunder increases I potentially lose 31 dc on QP.

Before:
10 base
9 1/2 monk level
20-24 wis mod depending on buffs/stance.
10 sunder item
5 exceptional combat mastery
6 legendary tactics
2 tactician
3 fighter tactics
2 fighter past lives
3 gmof
=
70-74 depending on buffs/stance

After
10 base
9 1/2 monk level
20-24 wis mod
=
39-43

Both get the potential -3 to -15 to fort saves from imp sunder to help (99% of the time it's only -3)

Unless I'm just going overboard on the doooooom factor, dc that low will not work on much in epic level content.

Enoach
01-23-2014, 09:26 PM
Ok so for currently on live there is potential of having a 77 to low 80s.

If everything on the bottom section the +30 to DC is removed this will bring QP down to 47 to low 50s DC, so less than a DC caster. It has a 6 second cooldown and costs 30 Ki - Still works on all Monk weapons (at least they have not mentioned they are taking this back away)

So this would put QP DC less than a dedicated casters Instant Death Spell DC but still higher than a non-dedicated DC caster's

A person still has the Improved Sunder (-3 Debuff to Fortification) and Negative level weapons to help, As well at the stacking +4, so in 8 seconds they could have +11 to their DC (Two Stacks of QP failed and +3 if they apply Improved Sunder first.

I still think this is a good change.

Violith
01-23-2014, 09:30 PM
Really comes down to what still boosts it after the change. Before the change on my wis 18m/2f I could get the dc into the low-mid 70's depending on destiny but a lot of that is coming from sunder/tactics increases +10 sunder item, +5 exceptional combat mastery, +6 legendary tactics, +2 tactician, +3 fighter tactics, 2 fighter past lives, +3 gmof bonus. If it no longer benefits from sunder increases I potentially lose 31 dc on QP.

Before:
10 base
9 1/2 monk level
20-24 wis mod depending on buffs/stance.
10 sunder item
5 exceptional combat mastery
6 legendary tactics
2 tactician
3 fighter tactics
2 fighter past lives
3 gmof
=
70-74 depending on buffs/stance

After
10 base
9 1/2 monk level
20-24 wis mod
=
39-43

Both get the potential -3 to -15 to fort saves from imp sunder to help (99% of the time it's only -3)

Unless I'm just going overboard on the doooooom factor, dc that low will not work on much in epic level content.


Tactic bonuses are not there due to receiving sundering bonuses. QP is still a tactical feat, so it should sitll recieve all bonuses from items/enhancements that increase those. Granted, I dont know for sure, but all they mention was removing sundering. And the QP got the bonuses from other stuff before they were able to benefit from sundering, so I doubt they'd ninja remove those while they were at it. so, max of -15. not 30. Currently downloading the updated Llama, not sure how long it'd take so I can check out this as well as other things. But all the doom seems unwarrented when they only mentioned removing sundering.

Enoach
01-23-2014, 09:35 PM
Both get the potential -3 to -15 to fort saves from imp sunder to help (99% of the time it's only -3)

Unless I'm just going overboard on the doooooom factor, dc that low will not work on much in epic level content.

As one that runs a DC caster I can tell you that 39 to 43 DC is workable (not optimal, but workable) in the Epic Hard and lower content if you choose your targets wisely. Many first life casters prior to gear and EDs are looking at that range for "off" schools. With coming into the 50s when they get to the Higher Epic Levels 27+

If this change goes as is to live, monks will need to look towards debuffs to help improve their chances, this may mean making gear and feat decisions as having Improved Sunder is still a bonus for a monk.

This change will make this less useful then say when it was 80DC, but that is nearly 10+ DC higher than what most casters will ever achieve with a single school (and a lot of dedicated feats and enhancements)

I still think this will be good to have it moved to being Tactical vs. Bread-n-Butter

Enoach
01-23-2014, 09:37 PM
Tactic bonuses are not there due to receiving sundering bonuses. QP is still a tactical feat, so it should sitll recieve all bonuses from items/enhancements that increase those. Granted, I dont know for sure, but all they mention was removing sundering. And the QP got the bonuses from other stuff before they were able to benefit from sundering, so I doubt they'd ninja remove those while they were at it. so, max of -15. not 30. Currently downloading the updated Llama, not sure how long it'd take so I can check out this as well as other things. But all the doom seems unwarrented when they only mentioned removing sundering.

I look forward to hearing the actual numbers. Thank you.

Rhysem
01-23-2014, 10:29 PM
Well on the plus side I only need a +10 stunning dun'robar ring then, rather than that and a shattering one. And it means in new life builds I don't really have to stive for 15 monk -- 12 is good enough for abundant step and then I can splash the rest and join the multiclassing is broken bandwagon instead.

I don't think it is a good change, because its yet another reason to skip pure -- especially if it still picks up tactics dc boosters. Let's see monk 20 or monk 18/ftr 2, with ftr, lose 1 dc for monk levels, possibly 1 from a capstone (if you took one), gain 3 from tactics. Net +1 or +2.

Rhysem
01-23-2014, 10:53 PM
From the thread on lammammammmaland:


QP is not a tactical feat,
not on lama, so nothing is added to it. No idea what it is on live. my monk is on a fighter life so.....
made a test on lama 18 monk 2 fighter.

fighter enhancement tactics- no
LD tactics - no
GMOF tactics - no (really)
Epic feat tactics- no
I did not check racial or fighter past lives, but doesn't look promising.
So it more than a -10 - 12 or so, its way more.

So yep, its now useless. That GMOF doesn't add to it is just embarrassing on Turbine's part.

On the plus side I don't need a sunder +10 ring. Nor sunder wraps. Two inventory spaces freed up!

Daitengu
01-24-2014, 06:37 AM
Wow, nerfing EiN into oblivion wasnt enough. Its quite a bad change.

emptysands
01-24-2014, 06:26 PM
The new QP will be brilliant on a mob with a bajillion HPs but can still be QPed... fail again and again.. again and again... until you get it. Fairly unlikely scenario, of course.

They should just bring back Epic Ward imo. Have no one insta kill. I preferred combat in that era of the game anyway.

Mixed groups maybe more useful as well - archer with frost arrows and stacking up to -5 DC debuff. Bladeforge debuff. etc.

emptysands
01-24-2014, 06:26 PM
I believe someone said live is ~80 max.


At least 100 is max.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/432725-Theorycrafting-PDK-shortsword-QP-master?p=5199278&viewfull=1#post5199278


I guess you lose all these with the change:



8 third of cha mod
3 gmof core tactics
13 shattering item
6 exceptional mastery
3 Kensai
6 legendary tactics (twist)
2 Epic Tactics (ED Feat)
=41

Marten
01-25-2014, 10:05 PM
Ok so for currently on live there is potential of having a 77 to low 80s.

If everything on the bottom section the +30 to DC is removed this will bring QP down to 47 to low 50s DC, so less than a DC caster. It has a 6 second cooldown and costs 30 Ki - Still works on all Monk weapons (at least they have not mentioned they are taking this back away)

So this would put QP DC less than a dedicated casters Instant Death Spell DC but still higher than a non-dedicated DC caster's

A person still has the Improved Sunder (-3 Debuff to Fortification) and Negative level weapons to help, As well at the stacking +4, so in 8 seconds they could have +11 to their DC (Two Stacks of QP failed and +3 if they apply Improved Sunder first.

I still think this is a good change.


I look forward to hearing the actual numbers. Thank you.


At least 100 is max.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/432725-Theorycrafting-PDK-shortsword-QP-master?p=5199278&viewfull=1#post5199278


I guess you lose all these with the change:



8 third of cha mod
3 gmof core tactics
13 shattering item
6 exceptional mastery
3 Kensai
6 legendary tactics (twist)
2 Epic Tactics (ED Feat)
=41


Enoach,

The 80 to a 100 DC QP is theory craft and not the real world. You dismiss losing as much as 41 points. Do you really think that all the work put into this type of build is lesser than your caster? How would casters feel if they suddenly lost 7 or more Feats, Twists, Enhancements, and Epic Destinies worth of DC and was told you get a +4 stacking for each death spell cast?

My monk has a 72 QP. Now take away the 41 and make that 31 and here is what happens if I choose to keep using QP.
It takes 6 Sec to cycle. Even if the +4 stack indefinitely, it would take 10 stacks, 300 Ki and 1 full minute of mashing that one button to get back to where I was for 1 kill. If you really feel that is a good change, then you have my vote for the same mechanics to be used with casters!

Enoach
01-25-2014, 11:54 PM
Enoach,

The 80 to a 100 DC QP is theory craft and not the real world. You dismiss losing as much as 41 points. Do you really think that all the work put into this type of build is lesser than your caster? How would casters feel if they suddenly lost 7 or more Feats, Twists, Enhancements, and Epic Destinies worth of DC and was told you get a +4 stacking for each death spell cast?

My monk has a 72 QP. Now take away the 41 and make that 31 and here is what happens if I choose to keep using QP.
It takes 6 Sec to cycle. Even if the +4 stack indefinitely, it would take 10 stacks, 300 Ki and 1 full minute of mashing that one button to get back to where I was for 1 kill. If you really feel that is a good change, then you have my vote for the same mechanics to be used with casters!

So of the 41 DC that no longer applies on LAM, how much did you actually loose?

The investment of a max DC caster is not the same as a QP monk.

So if your DC is reduced to upper 40s lower 50s with the +4 stacking buff a QP monk will be better off than many casters. If it is low 30s like you indicate then yes I will agree it is now too low.

Rhysem
01-26-2014, 12:13 AM
Speaking as someone running a 2nd life monk, str then wis build, running around on EN/EHs who currently doesn't have sundering +10 or exceptional +5 up (need to farm up the cloak of the bear, just haven't yet), running in an off destiny and low on twists (only 26; never ETR'd, so I don't have any tactics twisted in) -- QP works great in impossible demands EH/VON3 EN (probably EH too, but we always just do EN for the quick and easy xp) and is nearly useless in gianthold EN.

When the nerf comes through, I will take QP off my bar past the early epic content. The bar slot is more valuable than QP is.

The difference with DC casters is 1) range 2) AoE and 3) options (bb, firewall, throw invis, throw debuffs, switch up the save you target, etc). Monks can do the rest of what they always do which is punch things a lot and hope.

I find it stupid that DC casters are picking up +2 to +3 DC (or more?) with the patch, while nerfing QP.

FestusHood
01-26-2014, 12:31 AM
From what i read in the release notes, only the sundering effect is being removed. It didn't say anything about any other tactics bonuses. Has anyone actually been able to test, or find out any more information on this?

Could it be that this is just mass hysteria?

raveman1000
01-26-2014, 12:35 AM
So of the 41 DC that no longer applies on LAM, how much did you actually loose?

The investment of a max DC caster is not the same as a QP monk.

So if your DC is reduced to upper 40s lower 50s with the +4 stacking buff a QP monk will be better off than many casters. If it is low 30s like you indicate then yes I will agree it is now too low.

What you fail to realize is that to obtain said DCs one monk has to forfeit a lot of its offensive capabilities in order to reach the proper wisdom. That means all wis from epic destinies is taken, all level up goes to wis, +11 items and +3 insight and much AP is used on wis in multiple class trees. I don't see much difference with the max DC caster you mention. Don't forget that caster need to focus mainly on 2 stats, mainly primary casting stat and CON, as opposed to monk that need to put everything into wis for DC, need high str or dex to hit properly and do damage and still need lots of CON.

All that for what... a DC lower than 50!!?!

That, plus the fact that you need to get in melee range and actually hit the intended often moving target makes the new QP useless in EE where things do matter.

Again, QP will become a useless ability, as it was useless before the change that added sunder to the DC. And I could live with it before... but really turbine... what are you thinking putting in a change that you could easily predict the result, just to remove it a few months later, right after a lot of player dedicated their build around said change.

It makes no sense... it just **** people off... really, grab a pen and a piece of paper and do the maths, it's easy to see the freacking numbers for the DC before you do a change.

What are you guys thinking!?!.

Enoach
01-26-2014, 12:43 AM
What I'm trying to see is what will the "real" DC be with this change. I don't believe every monk is going to get -41 DC to QP with this change...

So putting aside the Theorycraft and considering the change on LAM, what will the DC be, High 40s, low 30s, 50s?

since I see someone point 100 is possible, lots of people saying 80s is where they are at, I'm asking because I would agree a 30s to low 40s DC would be a bad move, but if it will still be in the 50s then what I see is people not seeing it in comparison with other similar abilities.

raveman1000
01-26-2014, 12:47 AM
From what i read in the release notes, only the sundering effect is being removed. It didn't say anything about any other tactics bonuses. Has anyone actually been able to test, or find out any more information on this?

Could it be that this is just mass hysteria?

The only reason the tactical bonus are added to QP is that the sunder bonus applies to it. Remove sunder to QP and all the tactical bonus is removed as well: legendary tactics (6), combat mastery (5), fighter past life (3) dwarf tactic (3) or PDK (4+), fighter tactics (3), GMOF (3), tactician (+2). It's not just the +10 (or +14) from sundering item...

Now thell me that going from a 75-80 DC to a 45-50 DC is not a nerf.

If you really want to lower the DC to stop some casters from whining, just take half the sunder bonus to DC of QP or something like that... that would make QP semi-relevant, but at least it could see some use.

The +4 stacking bonus might seam nice, but you would actually need to miss 7 or 8 times over 40-50 seconds to reach the previous DC that was need for the skill to work properly in EE. That also mean that 200+ ki is going down the drain wasted, crippling your ability to deliver monk strikes.

All in all, bad move from turbine to have put in sunder DC in the first place. You don't give a child a toy and remove it from him right after... cause really I'm a child and I want my toy ;)

FestusHood
01-26-2014, 12:50 AM
What I'm trying to see is what will the "real" DC be with this change. I don't believe every monk is going to get -41 DC to QP with this change...

So putting aside the Theorycraft and considering the change on LAM, what will the DC be, High 40s, low 30s, 50s?

since I see someone point 100 is possible, lots of people saying 80s is where they are at, I'm asking because I would agree a 30s to low 40s DC would be a bad move, but if it will still be in the 50s then what I see is people not seeing it in comparison with other similar abilities.

Can you confirm with certainty that all tactics bonuses are being removed, and not just specifically the sundering effect? If it turns out that it is just the sundering effect, then that should put this ability right in line with other instakill abilities in terms of dc.

Wipey
01-26-2014, 12:51 AM
Can we get someone here that plays BOTH a top caster and a top QPer ? Lol.
Because it looks like one just rolls a wizzy or fvs, mash random buttons at character creation and in enhancement trees, some cheap gear on AH and voila, magic 65 or 68 DCs.

Still don't know if you only lose shatter and mastery or everything btw. Can someone clarify please ?

raveman1000
01-26-2014, 12:59 AM
What I'm trying to see is what will the "real" DC be with this change. I don't believe every monk is going to get -41 DC to QP with this change...

So putting aside the Theorycraft and considering the change on LAM, what will the DC be, High 40s, low 30s, 50s?

since I see someone point 100 is possible, lots of people saying 80s is where they are at, I'm asking because I would agree a 30s to low 40s DC would be a bad move, but if it will still be in the 50s then what I see is people not seeing it in comparison with other similar abilities.

Let's see:

Wisdom
18 wisdom
7 levels
5 tome
3 epic feats
11 item
4 ocean stance
3 insightful
1 exceptional
3 class enhancement
1 race
2 ship buff
2 yugo
2 alchemical weapon
6 ED
2 Acute instincts twist
2 twist
70 wisdom without store pots or other consumables

That's all your twist, all you epic feats, all your level ups, 12 destiny points, 8 AP, and a bad weapon... all in all a lot of investment for a stat that has nothing to do with damage dealing in melee (ok it helps stuns which is great, but beside that not much).

Now let's see the DC for a pure monk. Base (10) + 1/2 lvl (10) + Wis (30) = 50. That's the useable max without misc consumables or bard song (+1 DC).

This might seam fine to you, but a DC of 50 for a whole dedicated wis build is not fine to me, cause you lost a lot of offense in the process, something that DC caster avoid since their primary casting stat boost all their spells, as opposed to Wis that boost stuns, QP, and finishers (which are mostly irrelevant since DC will always be too low in EE), but does not boost damage.

raveman1000
01-26-2014, 01:24 AM
since I see someone point 100 is possible, lots of people saying 80s is where they are at, I'm asking because I would agree a 30s to low 40s DC would be a bad move, but if it will still be in the 50s then what I see is people not seeing it in comparison with other similar abilities.

Just for a comparison basis, what is the max useable DC for instadeath spells on a dedicated DC caster?

Wipey
01-26-2014, 01:32 AM
Some 66-68 necro for palemasters. I bet there are less than 20 on a server.
Some 67-69 evo for clerics ( mine has 68 ) or the other hjealzor. Do you even know one ? :D

Maybe I should have posted much lower numbers like many do to "support" their stance.
There are both sides though, you get "herpaderp my 50 evo maxed™ sorc is useless ", you can get similar posts from some monk players too.

Marten
01-26-2014, 07:13 AM
So of the 41 DC that no longer applies on LAM, how much did you actually loose?

The investment of a max DC caster is not the same as a QP monk.

So if your DC is reduced to upper 40s lower 50s with the +4 stacking buff a QP monk will be better off than many casters. If it is low 30s like you indicate then yes I will agree it is now too low.

I went from a 73 to a 38 with no way to improve that other than mash QP every 6 seconds. Still think this is a good change?!

Posted my proof here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/435180-Tested-QP-changes-(same-facts-from-my-tests)?p=5236025).

Matuse
01-26-2014, 09:41 AM
Quivering Palm is preposterously overpowered, and needed a monumental nerf. I support the Llama changes.

This is supposed to be a ONCE PER WEEK ability. Not once per day. Not once per rest shrine. Once per every 3-4 dungeons.

That you could do it every few seconds is by itself overpowered. Then the DCs you could pile onto it put it from overpowered and far into the realm of just plain silly.

It should be able to benefit from generic tactical increases, but no way in hell should it get a boost from Sunder. I also think the Ki cost should be bumped to 150.

Violith
01-26-2014, 10:16 AM
From what i read in the release notes, only the sundering effect is being removed. It didn't say anything about any other tactics bonuses. Has anyone actually been able to test, or find out any more information on this?

Could it be that this is just mass hysteria?

I believed it was merely the sundering bonus from shattering items as well. However, I did test it on lam and it is indeed all tactical effects including tactician feat. I dont know if it is WAI or not currently since a dev hasnt mentioned anything. however, I did bug report it jst incase since as you said the release notes do say sundering, yet even without sundering bonus it should still be considered a tactical feat.

raveman1000
01-26-2014, 10:40 AM
Quivering Palm is preposterously overpowered, and needed a monumental nerf. I support the Llama changes.

This is supposed to be a ONCE PER WEEK ability. Not once per day. Not once per rest shrine. Once per every 3-4 dungeons.

That you could do it every few seconds is by itself overpowered. Then the DCs you could pile onto it put it from overpowered and far into the realm of just plain silly.

It should be able to benefit from generic tactical increases, but no way in hell should it get a boost from Sunder. I also think the Ki cost should be bumped to 150.

Even though I agree with you that an insta-kill ability with 75+ DC that can be spammed every few seconds is overpowered, what I find really annoying is that with the current change it is completly useless (in EE). It won't be a once in a week ability, it'll become a once in a never ability.

The change should have brought the DC more in line with other insta-kill ability like those of an assassin or a DC based caster. Caster can reach 66-69, assassin can reach 70+. Now a monk can reach 50. Remember that in order to reach the highest wisdom possible for the best DC, a monk has to gimp himself in pretty much everything else.

Munkenmo
01-26-2014, 11:01 AM
From what i read in the release notes, only the sundering effect is being removed. It didn't say anything about any other tactics bonuses. Has anyone actually been able to test, or find out any more information on this?


Ive been on lam, there are no tactical, pastlife boosts, or ed boosts to quivering palm anymore, it is a huge nerf.



At least 100 is max.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/432725-Theorycrafting-PDK-shortsword-QP-master?p=5199278&viewfull=1#post5199278


I guess you lose all these with the change:



8 third of cha mod
3 gmof core tactics
13 shattering item
6 exceptional mastery
3 Kensai
6 legendary tactics (twist)
2 Epic Tactics (ED Feat)
=41



I remember making that post, you missed fighter past lives in your summary, its as much as a 44 out of a possible 100dc nerf. That alone states how stupid this change is.



So of the 41 DC that no longer applies on LAM, how much did you actually loose?

The investment of a max DC caster is not the same as a QP monk.

So if your DC is reduced to upper 40s lower 50s with the +4 stacking buff a QP monk will be better off than many casters. If it is low 30s like you indicate then yes I will agree it is now too low.

Of the losses ill lose
3fighter past lives
3kensai
5 combat mastery
12 shattering
6 legendary tactics
3 gmof
2 epic tactics feat
____
34 dc nerf. (I have a 75dc on live currently, so 41after this change is implemented)

I dont see how my monk investment to tactics is worth any less than my casters, ive ground out 3 fighter lives, splashed 2 fighter, have a feat a twist, and all my level up points dedicated to dc's.

I would not accept having my casters dc's reduced by a third anymore than I do my monk, this change is a stupid one, the dc on a fail is not worth the ki id waste.

I didnt use qp in ee before u19. If this change goes live, the next time I tr my monk, it will once again only build to 23 wisdom for feat pre reqs.

More likely though, as a player with a pm, fvs and druid who all have a 60+ dc in their primary school, im going to be playing my fvs with his new soundburst shiny.

Rhysem
01-26-2014, 01:48 PM
Quivering Palm is preposterously overpowered, and needed a monumental nerf. I support the Llama changes.

This is supposed to be a ONCE PER WEEK ability. Not once per day. Not once per rest shrine. Once per every 3-4 dungeons.

That you could do it every few seconds is by itself overpowered. Then the DCs you could pile onto it put it from overpowered and far into the realm of just plain silly.

It should be able to benefit from generic tactical increases, but no way in hell should it get a boost from Sunder. I also think the Ki cost should be bumped to 150.

I'm pro-you man. Let's apply it to casters too. 4 level 9 spells (+maybe 1-2 if you have a high BASE--not buffed-- int) should be enough for you every shrine amirite? If casters had to play by the SRD like you want monks to, the amount of whining would probably form a black hole of suckitude. Speaking of SRD, those past lives you have buffing your DC? Gone. Items with enchantment bonuses to DC? Gone. I'd be ... just like you want monks to be -- and then DC casting would be dead in epic anything.

All I can say is if they go ahead with the change, I really hope turbine applies it to casters too. Come on, +4dc stacking every time you cast should be good enough right?

blerkington
01-26-2014, 05:22 PM
Hi,

I think Turbine needs to look at the role of instakills in this game in general.

As cheesy as I thought quivering palm had become, it seems like it's been hit very hard, and apparently with no attempt to balance it in the relation to caster classes.

My view of this is that classes with instakills should be able to reach usable DCs even in upper level EE content by investing in a suitable build and gear.

However, I'd also like to see cooldowns for instakills modified so that there is no instakilling mobs every few seconds by spamming the same low-cost ability or, for that matter, cycling a series of spells and/or SLAs.

Thanks.

Teh_Troll
01-26-2014, 05:26 PM
Hi,

I think Turbine needs to look at the role of instakills in this game in general.

As cheesy as I thought quivering palm had become, it seems like it's been hit very hard, and apparently with no attempt to balance it in the relation to caster classes.

My view of this is that classes with instakills should be able to reach usable DCs even in upper level EE content by investing in a suitable build and gear.

However, I'd also like to see cooldowns for instakills modified so that there is no instakilling mobs every few seconds by spamming the same low-cost ability or, for that matter, cycling a series of spells and/or SLAs.

Thanks.

The entire concept of monks being instakillers is ******** and has no basis in PnP, was pulled completely out of the air by a dev who wanted to buff hie favorite class.

Nerf them some more.

Braegan
01-26-2014, 06:14 PM
A very heavy handed nerf that wasn't needed to be so harsh.

I agree some balancing was needed, but this is typical chainsaw when a scalpel would've done the job.

And, to all those cherry picking pnp arguements this isn't pnp.

jamkriz
01-26-2014, 06:48 PM
Decided to check on the impact on my monks and it's pretty devastating.
My main monk build stands to lose 35DC from his QP which currently sits at 73 (3 Ftr PL, 3 WF Tactics, 3 Kensai, 10 Sundering, 6 Legendary Tactics, 2 Tactition, 3 GMoF, 5 Mastery). That's almost half his DC and this is not a theoretical build. This is real. This is a build that is a completionist with maxed out fate points to get there.

My pure monk Henshin is sitting with a 73 as well and would lose 31DC (3 Ftr PL, 2 HElf Dilly, 10 Sundering, 6 Legendary Tactics, 2 Tactition, 3 GMoF, 5 Mastery). Also close to half of his DC.

Will it make a real difference? Only in killing trash which is why I cannot understand why people thought it was OP. All that will happen is that QP will once more become unused.


It would be very interesting to see any other type of toon have any of their DCs get nerfed by half to see the reaction. Sure it was high but you had to really build for it to get up there which takes a lot of effort.

Now PM's definitely needed a boost for EE content. On EH or below the PM is a God but other than shelling out tonnes on abishai cookies, yugo pots and store pots it's pretty difficult to get DCs close to or above 70. My PM currently sits without pots with a 63 necro DC (10 less than the monk) and he's nowhere near as built up as the monk having only 3 wiz and 3 FvS past lives for the Spell Pen.

If the devs really wanted to try to get them in line with caster DCs then the nerf should only have been by around 10 but I'm not sure if balance was what they had in mind.

Matuse
01-26-2014, 09:11 PM
Let's apply it to casters too. 4 level 9 spells (+maybe 1-2 if you have a high BASE--not buffed-- int) should be enough for you every shrine amirite?

That battle was lost long ago, during alpha and the implementation of rest shrines.

Give QP a cooldown of 10 minutes. Then you can stack whatever bonuses you like on it.


If casters had to play by the SRD like you want monks to, the amount of whining would probably form a black hole of suckitude.

The game would be radically different. But it's not, so let's work with what we have now, ok?


Speaking of SRD, those past lives you have buffing your DC? Gone. Items with enchantment bonuses to DC? Gone. I'd be ... just like you want monks to be -- and then DC casting would be dead in epic anything.

If we were to put in real epic spells, casters would dominate all content to an extent that you can't even imagine. EE CitW? Solod by any wizard in less than 5 minutes. The only thing that would slow it down would be Ana's footspeed.

As long as you're deciding to stick with the SRD, say goodbye to all of those choice bonus monk feats, and their innate dodge. While you are at it, every single enhancement tree goes bye-bye!


All I can say is if they go ahead with the change, I really hope turbine applies it to casters too. Come on, +4dc stacking every time you cast should be good enough right?

1) Your assumption that Monks should have some kind of mastery of insta-killing is basically and fundamentally flawed. Quivering Palm should NEVER have been put to the status it currently enjoys. Honestly, whichever dev who even conceived of the idea (to say nothing of implementing it) should be fired for gross incompetence. Just because you've been spoiled by something that never should have existed in the first place is not a good enough reason to continue with that thing.

2) While running in Air or Earth stance (so no +ki from Fire), I can run off QP every time it comes off of cooldown without running out of Ki. I mean, not ever running out of Ki. It has a shorter cooldown than Finger of Death, it works far more often, it automatically bypasses spell resistance, it requires far less investment in order to get it work, and I will never, ever run out of uses of it, and never need to shrine. My main is currently on a monk life and went pure 20 monk. From 1-27 where I am right now, I can count on one hand the number of times I've used a rest shrine over the entire life of the character. Spellcasters run out of SP. Yes, they do.

3) If Quivering Palm were to be removed from the game entirely, Monks would still be ridiculously strong.

4) Say hello to Wail Of The Banshee for me, K? No nerfs there!

Rhysem
01-26-2014, 10:06 PM
Okay, let's not stick to the SRD. Let's get the QP DC back off of 10+half+wis that's in the SRD. Because saves here aren't what you'd find in the MM either.

I'm okay either way. I'm not okay with "let's nerf this one class and buff others at the same time!" as casters pick up +2-3 or more DC (stacking gems of DC, plus the new raid gear (tentatively) having craft-your-choice +6(?) DC).

Monks will still be strong, but it is stupid to nerf a level 15 ability and turn monk into "splash 2, 6 or 12 -- never pure" class, which is nearly what they're doing.

Fafnir
01-27-2014, 07:43 AM
On EH or below the PM is a God

This is the problem with DC casters. Most of the time they are massively overpowered... and it is only in upper EEs where the DCs get away from them. Yet DC casters do a lot of complaining (irrespective of whether justified or not) and when balancing to DC casters comes, DC casters are very hard to balance without completely overpowering them again and the cycle repeats.

Having more mobs with use of DW/Epic Ward would go some way to limiting both monks and DC casters and make combat more engaging again without just bloating mob HPs.

inspiredunease
01-27-2014, 08:50 AM
The PnP/SRD discussions are irrelevant, they're balancing this game, not a completely un-related theatre studies group for socially ******** people. Casters will get buffed again for a while until the seesaw of wah swings the other way and they get renerfed. I very much doubt monks will ever get QP back. I will simply stop building for it and enjoy less diversity in my monk builds. Casters can build DPS or DC-based instakill characters, both of whom benefited from great crowd control. I can now only build my monk for DPS. Less choice is never a good thing.

emptysands
01-27-2014, 06:08 PM
This is the problem with DC casters. Most of the time they are massively overpowered... and it is only in upper EEs where the DCs get away from them. Yet DC casters do a lot of complaining (irrespective of whether justified or not) and when balancing to DC casters comes, DC casters are very hard to balance without completely overpowering them again and the cycle repeats.

Having more mobs with use of DW/Epic Ward would go some way to limiting both monks and DC casters and make combat more engaging again without just bloating mob HPs.

Players can have extra resistance vs spells. I don't see mob can not have the same saves buff against player spells. So there is no need for spell casters DCs to effect tactics DCs.

-Zyxas-
02-01-2014, 12:37 PM
It's (supposed to be) only no Sunder bonuses now. Llamaland release notes say that tactics bonuses were added back in except for Sunder. So only -10 or 11 or whatever DC.

I don't know if they have it implemented correctly yet, but that's what the release notes say (2/1/2014, possibly earlier).

Daitengu
02-04-2014, 03:28 AM
The entire concept of monks being instakillers is ******** ...It's not! Ever heard of Dim Mak?

LavidDynch
02-04-2014, 03:55 AM
1) Your assumption that Monks should have some kind of mastery of insta-killing is basically and fundamentally flawed. Quivering Palm should NEVER have been put to the status it currently enjoys. Honestly, whichever dev who even conceived of the idea (to say nothing of implementing it) should be fired for gross incompetence. Just because you've been spoiled by something that never should have existed in the first place is not a good enough reason to continue with that thing.


Nice, enjoy your ban!

AlexIII
02-06-2014, 05:44 PM
Looking at this from a more average monk's perspective

+5 tomes are rare/expensive. many characters don't have the resources. Other item bonuses will take time to get
+3 for one of two races
+3 for past lives
18 is a high score for many monks-- a lot of builds have a more balanced score of 16
Picking 6 wisdom from any ed that parallels the class will gimp other aspects


Now, for any monk to have one or two of these is intelligent. for the average monk to have all is unlikely. you would only see this on a monk built specifically for DC's with resources.

The average monk might have 70 as a max in ocean. dropping it to 60 for a non optimized monk(monks get this: casters can pick what they want to fill slots with) leaves it relevant in en and eh, and a few failed attempts will get a ee-- but perhaps not the same mob you started with.

Also, spell instant kills have damage or negative levels on a save, QP doesn't.

The only word I have seen is removing shattering specifically(+10). Combat mastery, legendary tactics, etc should still work.

I don't think this is an unreasonable nerf, though I think the monk trees could use a tactical feat enhancement, and QP might deal damage or a neg on a save.

TeacherSyn
02-13-2014, 12:43 PM
Seems to me that all of the things that are being removed aren't inherently part of a Monk's style, anyway.

But here's my take on it since it really seems that the thread hasn't noted it.

Quivering Palm (which also exists in other games such as the Neverwinter Nights series) was never meant as a spamming, insta-kill attack as most people wanted to use it. To my interpretation and use, it's a simple assassinate-like attack, meant for a quiet, quick, isolated takedown.

Based on the upgrade and renerfing, the devs have come to remember this and are back into balance control.

I would rather that QP gets a longer cooldown, such as 1 minute. That doesn't reduce its effectiveness with the various things that could raise its success but does limit it's spamming ability.

QP's changes seem reflective of what Update 19 did to the former "Void Strike IV," now just "Void Strike" and only available to a tier 5-trained Henshin Mystic. It had a chance of insta-kill as well but now no other Monks can access this (or its charm finisher). That one upset me more than this change, but I'd rather see QP slowed than its DC nerfed--although the 3-min perseverance bonus until it works seems like a mild compromise.

LavidDynch
02-13-2014, 12:50 PM
Based on the upgrade and renerfing, the devs have come to remember this and are back into balance control.


One of the prime examples of the total lack of direction of this game.

RobbinB
02-13-2014, 05:10 PM
Nice, enjoy your ban!

I'm not linked to Turbine, I'm not a lawyer, and I don't read the "terms of whatever's" closely...ever. So my opinion is just an opinion and doesn't count for much. But in my opinion, the quote you indicate as banworthy is not banworthy because it doesn't actually name a specific dev. Or at least that's been my experience, as I've frequently used some pretty harsh words when I talk about the "dev team" or "turbine", but have never been directly critically of any specific dev by name.

TeacherSyn
02-14-2014, 01:34 PM
One of the prime examples of the total lack of direction of this game.

Is it? How?

You don't expect the developers to be perfect, I'm sure. So why raise that bar impossibly high to automatically disappoint yourself?

DDO is a game to us but a very complex world with precarious checks and balances to environment, rules and characters for the developers. We can hardly expect and certainly never demand perfection, only that a reasonable balance comes to the forefront eventually.

DDO must have some direction; you're still playing. :) None of us are going to play in chaos.

LavidDynch
02-14-2014, 01:54 PM
Is it? How?

You don't expect the developers to be perfect, I'm sure. So why raise that bar impossibly high to automatically disappoint yourself?

DDO is a game to us but a very complex world with precarious checks and balances to environment, rules and characters for the developers. We can hardly expect and certainly never demand perfection, only that a reasonable balance comes to the forefront eventually.

DDO must have some direction; you're still playing. :) None of us are going to play in chaos.

I think chaos is a part of the MMO industri. If they wanted balance, im pretty **** sure they would have done a better a job at it. Oddly enough any game with some competitive orientation has very few if any ground breaking balance shifts..

Rusty_Can
03-11-2014, 12:27 PM
It's (supposed to be) only no Sunder bonuses now. Llamaland release notes say that tactics bonuses were added back in except for Sunder. So only -10 or 11 or whatever DC.

Exceptional Combat Mastery isn't working either.

Arlathen
03-14-2014, 09:29 AM
Ok, so exactly what *IS* working with Quivering Palm now?..

Combat Mastery Items?
Epic Destiny Tactician feat?
Legendary Dreadnought - Legendary Tactics?
Grand Master of Flowers - Innates?
Fighter Past Life Bonuses?
Kensai Fighter Tactics?
Half-Elf Fighter Tactics?
Half-Orc Sunder Bonuses?
Dwarf Tactics Bonuses?