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Lanhelin
01-21-2014, 08:47 AM
I suggest to simply scale down the Death Penalty in relation to the number of players in a group:

1: -10%
2: -8%
3: -6%
4: -4%
5: -2%
6: no penalty

Players, not Hires. A full group of six players should be rewarded with no penalty on death(s) of group members regardless of what life, what equip and what knowledge of a dungeon the players bring, to encourage people to team up more.

EnjoyTheMoment
01-21-2014, 09:24 AM
This is a good idea that adjusts for the added difficulty of having zero deaths in a group.

Another, related idea could be to replace the "no deaths" bonus with a "survivor bonus". So, if you have a team of six players and one player's character dies, then everybody (including the player whose character died) gets 5/6 of the total "survivor" bonus (rounded up). If no character dies, then the full team bonus applies. A full team wipe wipes out the survivor's bonus. If even one character doesn't die, then the whole team gets at least some "survivor bonus" XPs. This could be assigned irrespective of team size.

A survivor's bonus would fundamentally changes teamplay dynamics, according to who has died and who has not, as keeping those who have not yet died alive becomes a kind of "game within the game", as missions progress.

A complementary idea would be to grant extra XPs at a rate of 1% per teammate. This helps to compensate those who might feel annoyed at having an unskilled teammate reduce the survivor bonus. With all the different XP bonuses in play, it would take a real grinch to get worked up about losing 1% off of the maximum possible bonus, when somebody's character dies in a mission.

danotmano1998
01-21-2014, 10:07 AM
How about:

If you die in the quest, you personally don't get the 10% bonus.

Theolin
01-21-2014, 10:19 AM
How about:

If you die in the quest, you personally don't get the 10% bonus.

^^ this

EnjoyTheMoment
01-21-2014, 10:27 AM
How about:

If you die in the quest, you personally don't get the 10% bonus.This would have the perverse outcome of creating an incentive to let teammates die, rather than take any risks to save them.

If you want people to work together as a team, then it's important that whatever incentives are set up don't undermine cooperation.

Lanhelin
01-21-2014, 10:30 AM
How about:

If you die in the quest, you personally don't get the 10% bonus.

Yes, this would be another possibility. It's up to Turbine to make a statement why a penalty is necessary or why just no bonus wouldn't be sufficient.

Memnir
01-21-2014, 10:46 AM
If you want incentive - add a 3% Teamwork XP bonus for every person who joins a group after the group leader. This would yield a bonus of 15% for a full party - and should be incentive for trying to fill up a group. It would also offset the loss of a Flawless bonus should somebody die - and still have a little bit of bonus left to spare.

Bogenbroom
01-21-2014, 10:58 AM
I have no particular beef with try to develop some form of incentive to get players to group instead of solo. As for the XP penalty for a group death. The obvious point of that is to encourage teamwork and support of your group. Personally, I don't think it has worked as well as envisioned and has only led to players isolating themselves to avoid the penalty... hence, the OP. Personally, I think it be revised to a bonus (only displayed at the end of a quest) and only apply to full groups. So, I guess I would be for a varient of the OP and would, respectfully, disagree with Mem.

EnjoyTheMoment
01-21-2014, 11:06 AM
If you want incentive - add a 3% Teamwork XP bonus for every person who joins a group after the group leader. This would yield a bonus of 15% for a full party - and should be incentive for trying to fill up a group. It would also offset the loss of a Flawless bonus should somebody die - and still have a little bit of bonus left to spare.If everybody thinks as you do, then it will go well. But, some (many?) will do the math on +3% - 10% = -7% and still become quite annoyed with a teammate whose character died.

Reduce the penalty to near insignificant levels (the OPs' intent) and the fraction of those who get annoyed at a teammate having a character die will (probably) fall by a lot.

TrinityTurtle
01-21-2014, 11:08 AM
Such a shame people need a numeric incentive for grouping, and can't consider time spent chatting with others with a common hobby ( the game), socializing, and making friends while working together on a quest is less valuable than the potential loss of a 10% bonus. It really says something about our playerbase, doesn't it?

Annex
01-21-2014, 11:16 AM
Why not invert the current system, something like this?:

1 Party member, no deaths: +2%
2 Party members, no deaths: +4%
3 Party members, no deaths: +6%
4 Party members, no deaths: +8%
5 Party members, no deaths: +10%
6 Party members, no deaths: +12%

Bonus reduces by 2% per character or hireling death during adventure.

This system inverts the current "death penalty" into a "no deaths" bonus. Now, a skilled player can decide between going for the guaranteed 2%, or trying for a larger bonus with a group. The bulk of forum members seem to feel that soloing a quest almost always takes less effort than going with a group, so it seems logical that the "no deaths" bonus should scale with group size. Even if a group goes for the 12% bonus and suffers a few deaths, the bonus should still come in above 2%. I used 2% increments but that could be adjusted upward if players think more experience makes sense.

danotmano1998
01-21-2014, 12:25 PM
This would have the perverse outcome of creating an incentive to let teammates die, rather than take any risks to save them.

If you want people to work together as a team, then it's important that whatever incentives are set up don't undermine cooperation.

Yes, I thought of that..

But if people are going to be jerks, they are going to be jerks.. No amount of coding is going to change that behavior, IMO.

At least this way you don't get punished for other people's mistakes.

Propane
01-21-2014, 12:38 PM
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/429663-Promoting-Grouping-LFMs-by-bonus-XP-for-full-group

A similar thread from a few months ago -

EnjoyTheMoment
01-21-2014, 12:52 PM
Yes, I thought of that..

But if people are going to be jerks, they are going to be jerks.. No amount of coding is going to change that behavior, IMO.

At least this way you don't get punished for other people's mistakes.Actually, you would still get punished by other peoples' mistakes when they "wipe" aggro onto your character, instead of (or perhaps in addition to) having their character die. Alternatively, altruistic teammates can lose the 10% bonus for taking risks to help the group, or to save a teammate.

While we can't prevent jerks from being themselves, we can try to not reward selfish behavior. Incentives to cooperate can be set up fairly easily, as much to create behavioral norms as for their direct effect on behavior.

danotmano1998
01-21-2014, 01:12 PM
altruistic teammates can lose the 10% bonus for taking risks to help the group, or to save a teammate.

This is a good point..

Though you could argue that the current system is designed to encourage others to make sure people don't die..
Which doesn't seem to be what the end result is..
It, in fact, discourages grouping entirely for some.

WilliamBraveheart
01-21-2014, 01:21 PM
how about removing dungeon scaling and leave the difficulty at the 6 member level no matter how many are in group. This would cause many soloists to need to group for completions.

EnjoyTheMoment
01-21-2014, 01:33 PM
This is a good point..

Though you could argue that the current system is designed to encourage others to make sure people don't die..
Which doesn't seem to be what the end result is..
It, in fact, discourages grouping entirely for some.I agree that the current system doesn't promote teaming. But, with a couple of tweaks it could.

If the goal is to promote cooperation between teammates, then incentives need to be set up to promote that. To do that, give a blanket increase in XPs for each teammate that's large enough more than to cover any penalty to the group from that character dying -- this helps to defuse some of the anger some might feel when a character dies. But, also hold the group responsible for each character's death so there's still an incentive to cooperate; just keep the death penalty low, though, so less players become incensed when a character death does happen.

By both making the XP pie bigger for groups *and* providing incentives to cut down on deaths more cooperation will take place than under the current system of incentives.

Lanhelin
01-21-2014, 02:43 PM
how about removing dungeon scaling and leave the difficulty at the 6 member level no matter how many are in group. This would cause many soloists to need to group for completions.

This would punish soloists to much I think. If someone wants to solo, she/he should be able to do it. But there should be a greater benefit when teaming up - instead of the always existing invisible threat to lose 10% XP on death by oneself or another player. Most quest objectives are also designed that way that one can achieve all of them if one solos the dungeon and wants to. Only a few require more players to make more mobs spawn to eg. get the conquest bonus or something like that.

When I teamed up in the past, it has never been a problem though. Even if I or another one died one or more times, nobody ever complained about it and we always completed it. But the deaths mainly happened because of Trap damage or Disintegrate from a Beholder or something like that, so nothing an altruistic party could have avoided or healed. If lag or a Disconnect occurs and a byoh member dies in battle, why punish the others for it? 10% isn't that much though, but we either want to avoid the penalty or don't care about it at all.

nibel
01-21-2014, 06:46 PM
This would punish soloists to much I think.

Easy to solve.

Keep full scaling on Elite only. You can still solo normal and hard, if you want to.

rayworks
01-21-2014, 07:09 PM
How about:

If you die in the quest, you personally don't get the 10% bonus.

Yes. This is the best solution if you're gonna have a death penalty at all. Better would be to get rid of it entirely.

Qhualor
01-21-2014, 07:31 PM
this actually isn't a bad idea, although its a minor solution. the real culprit is toned down dungeon scaling. dial up the difficulties a little more and people will want to group more. just a nudge could help.

Havok.cry
01-21-2014, 07:38 PM
Personally, if they want me to group more they need to offer rewards for waiting around for a group to fill. I couldn't care less about the death penalty, but I am fairly allergic to waiting around. I do not log on to stand around doing nothing for 15-20 minutes and that is the single largest contributing factor to why I solo most of the time.

If there was something entertaining (a mini game like the traveler's egg hunt or the illusionist show would be sufficient) to do in each and every pubic area I would be much, much more inclined to form groups.

DakDeFrosted
01-21-2014, 08:00 PM
From what I've seen, the issue really isn't death penalty or dungeon scaling that prevents more people grouping, it's a simple matter of efficiency. A veteran player, well geared and very familiar with all the quests, is able to complete quests faster while soloing or running with another veteran or two then running it in a Pug.

You could offer a +25% incentive to XP to fill a group for a quest, but if it takes you twice as long to fill the group and do the quest you are still better off simply soloing the same quest twice.

Even if you eliminate dungeon scaling on Elite, it won't affect the long time players. Often in full Pug groups it is common to see one veteran player carry an entire party through a quest regardless of the increased difficulty.

The only real solution to increase the number of LFM's is to increase the number of people on the servers.

Qhualor
01-21-2014, 08:38 PM
Personally, if they want me to group more they need to offer rewards for waiting around for a group to fill. I couldn't care less about the death penalty, but I am fairly allergic to waiting around. I do not log on to stand around doing nothing for 15-20 minutes and that is the single largest contributing factor to why I solo most of the time.

If there was something entertaining (a mini game like the traveler's egg hunt or the illusionist show would be sufficient) to do in each and every pubic area I would be much, much more inclined to form groups.

some people form groups while waiting in the Lobster. they don't usually do the quest that was listed, but the group fills sometimes.

Qhualor
01-21-2014, 08:49 PM
From what I've seen, the issue really isn't death penalty or dungeon scaling that prevents more people grouping, it's a simple matter of efficiency. A veteran player, well geared and very familiar with all the quests, is able to complete quests faster while soloing or running with another veteran or two then running it in a Pug.

You could offer a +25% incentive to XP to fill a group for a quest, but if it takes you twice as long to fill the group and do the quest you are still better off simply soloing the same quest twice.

Even if you eliminate dungeon scaling on Elite, it won't affect the long time players. Often in full Pug groups it is common to see one veteran player carry an entire party through a quest regardless of the increased difficulty.

The only real solution to increase the number of LFM's is to increase the number of people on the servers.

that's because the way DS is set up, its easier to run quests shortman with 1 or 2 vets than with a full group. a veteran that's well geared is more than likely to fair better in a group of players that aren't as experienced or geared. that's not rocket science. that's just how it is after you have invested the time, plat, $hards and whatever else to acquire the experience and gear. in my experience though, there are just a handful of quests that cause problems for groups or shortman and it doesn't matter how you go about it, its going to be a challenge for some. for the most part, full party groups can get quests done fast and faster than a 1-3 player group. the only time this isn't true is when there is at least 1 new player or inexperienced player in the group that cant use the strength of the group or becomes more of a burden than anything else in the group. this happens sometimes, but I don't see it very often.

Havok.cry
01-21-2014, 09:10 PM
some people form groups while waiting in the Lobster. they don't usually do the quest that was listed, but the group fills sometimes.

PvP is not entertaining. I despise it. It is not an option for me.

Also when I start an LFM it is to run a specific quest or group of quests. I generally already know what I want to do when I log on. I have never understood lfms that don't run the listed quest.

Noctus
01-22-2014, 06:27 AM
This would have the perverse outcome of creating an incentive to let teammates die, rather than take any risks to save them.

If you want people to work together as a team, then it's important that whatever incentives are set up don't undermine cooperation.

But this only happens if you actually have to put your live on the line to perhaps prevent the death of a teammate, whereas the current Deathpenalty actively discourages from opening your groups up to strangers in the 1st place.

Also the incident you describe is active right now, because people risk their XP-Shrine shipbuff all the time, even after the got hit by the Deathpenalty because that one puggy got himself killed in a trap that was being disabled.


If there are two systems with unwelcome secondary effect, it is wise to choose the one where the negative situations aremuch less likely to occure. (Every time you group vs. when you have to jump into high-danger situations to rescue a teammate)

Drelak
01-22-2014, 07:42 AM
How about:

+3% survival bonus for each party member who did not die in the quest.

+0-2% for hirelings.

No penalties for repeated deaths.

Annex
01-22-2014, 12:16 PM
this actually isn't a bad idea, although its a minor solution. the real culprit is toned down dungeon scaling. dial up the difficulties a little more and people will want to group more. just a nudge could help.

I am one of those horrible people who plays solo or, if a friend actually signs on, plays in a small group. :) Though I very much enjoy group play and occasionally flirt with pick up groups, I know that, given the predominant pick up group play style, I am currently a liability and will not enjoy myself.

Three and a half years ago, when I gave DDO a try for the first time, I quit because the difficulty made it troublesome (though not impossible) to solo. As now, my friends rarely showed up so I quickly lost interest. Under the current system of dungeon scaling I can play on Casual, Normal, and Hard all by myself, and through a combination of better equipment, better character construction, game knowledge, and extra levels, eventually solo Elite. This changed my perspective on the game enough to buy in. I can now find things to do and make meaningful progress while waiting for my friends.

If the developers adjust dungeon scaling upward across the board, I will play less or even leave. Challenges are fun, but after a certain point they become frustrating. Though I am but one data point, I wanted to illustrate that some solutions to the grouping problem will have unintended consequences.

LiquidZombie
01-23-2014, 11:35 AM
how about removing dungeon scaling and leave the difficulty at the 6 member level no matter how many are in group. This would cause many soloists to need to group for completions.

So, 16 whole posts until the standard "Kick out the casual players and screw up the game for anyone who doesn't share my personal playstyle" solution gets suggested like it does in every single thread relating to grouping or game difficulty. What a surprise.

The rest of the suggestions are actually pretty sensible, clearly coming from people who understand that "incentive" doesn't mean "force people to do it my way or GTFO".

Talon_Moonshadow
01-23-2014, 12:04 PM
You get bonus XP for doing something...extra.. in a dungeon.

Things like killing almost everything, or not killing anything at all.
Breaking all breakables.

and a minor 10% bonus for making sure all of your group does not die.

This minor XP bonus of 10% can be done in many ways, but I find it works out really well to simply stay together, and watch blue map dots and red health bars.... and help each other out as best you can to keep everyone alive.

If you do extra stuff you should be rewarded.


Or you can just rush through to get completion...
not get Conquest.
Not get Ransack.

and maybe not get +10% for keeping everyone alive.

Hoglum
01-23-2014, 12:11 PM
A common point I've seen several people have concerning grouping is they don't care to wait on others for too long. Once possible mechanism which might help could be a "share ship buffs" button. When people join in, you click this button and it does 2 things:

1. Re-news all your current ship buffs to 1 full hour.

2. Applies all your ship buffs to everyone else in the party unless people have better buffs or whatever other limits might be prudent.

This could be just one method of allowing people to get going a bit quicker.

Wipey
01-23-2014, 12:22 PM
Can't click lfm if you are not flagged. Or don't have guest pass or adventure pack.
Can't click lfm if you don't have at least 40 free spaces in inventory.
Can't click lfm if you are in guild and don't have at least 55 mins left on buffs.
Can't click lfm if you don't have at least 300 of each spell component.
Just kidding.

Or people can actually show some respect and not to do ...I don't even know what they do instead of running to quest after joining a party.
Last person to join Shroud or ToD takes twice the time to get to Meridia or tower.
Last person to come to ADQ ALWAYS forgot to talk to the Djinn.

Cap_Man
01-23-2014, 12:30 PM
This is a good point..

Though you could argue that the current system is designed to encourage others to make sure people don't die..
Which doesn't seem to be what the end result is..
It, in fact, discourages grouping entirely for some.

I feel the current system is designed to be a griefing tool. My main is a Rogue and I don't join many EE pugs because I hate it when myself or anyone else is given a hard time because they had the gall to be the first to die. Never mind the +15% from getting traps and anyone else who dies after that gets a free pass. I don't understand this behavior so don't join many EE pugs.

And about the comment above: I agree it does not encourage team work. The way things are now, I would be less likely to make sure people don't die. If there were no deaths up to that point then I would be courting the possibility of my own death in a rescue attempt and I do not want to deal with anymore people that get bent out of shape because I only got them +5% instead of +15%. Of course, once someone dies then a huge weight is lifted from my shoulders and I feel free to take risks and help others, you know, teamwork!.

The death penalty should be a personal penalty not something that discourages pugging.

I just don't understand why Turbine has this anti-grouping feature in an MMO.

slarden
01-23-2014, 12:31 PM
This is a good idea.

I really think they should get rid of the death penalty rather than make it complicated. I wonder how many people left the game because they were verbally abused for dying in a quest.

I also think they should have a grouping bonus for a party of 4 or more players. I realize the dual boxers will love this but who cares. The devs should focus on helping players rather than trying to prevent dual boxing.

Whatever they do, make it simple. Don't make it like the over-leveling situation in epics where people don't realize until they get to the quest the impact on xp and streaks.

Lanhelin
01-31-2014, 08:34 PM
This is a good idea.

I really think they should get rid of the death penalty rather than make it complicated. I wonder how many people left the game because they were verbally abused for dying in a quest.

I also think they should have a grouping bonus for a party of 4 or more players. I realize the dual boxers will love this but who cares. The devs should focus on helping players rather than trying to prevent dual boxing.

Whatever they do, make it simple. Don't make it like the over-leveling situation in epics where people don't realize until they get to the quest the impact on xp and streaks.

Yes and yes. Make it simple. Reducing Death penalty up to no penalty would be a good way. Though I doubt that this will change anything, because either one cares about the +10% and solos or doesn't care about it at all and in this case it's pretty unattractive to just reduce XP penalty. Death penalty should be raised to -25% and reduced by 5% each party member, to make it notable.

fmalfeas
01-31-2014, 11:14 PM
Why not take a completely different tack?

There are a lot of people who don't group because they like doing optional, and the current culture of 'zergzergzerg' makes them not want to bother. Now, I'm not going to suggest nerfing base xp and boosting optionals or anything like that. If you still want to zerg, fine by me.

What I will suggest, however, is /add/ some high-reward optionals that require a group to do. The more people required, the better the reward. And I'm not talking about something like '6 people must stand at the same spot' or anything goofy like that. But 6 levers that have to be pulled too close together to get without 6 people? That's an option. And I really mean OPTIONALS. Not required to complete the quest in any way shape or form. Hell, don't even lock super-special named loot behind them. But other than saying not to lock up named loot behind them (we have raids for that), other things are quite on the table. Special bosses (needed to complete the monster manual entry for their species), ample XP, piles of plat, high odds at rare non-named loot (I'm looking at you, +2 tomes, and maybe a couple astral shards, or CoVs)? Yeah, that'd be perfect.

It would give a good, solid reason to group, and those groups wouldn't be the super-speed invis-zerg DA-fest that a lot of more casual players dread. Nobody would really be penalized for not doing it, just people rewarded for doing it. Sure, a 2-man group may not get even a real chance at a +2 tome out of that optional chest...maybe a +1 skill tome or something (at least in lower level content), while a 6-man would...but they'd get something worth the time and effort involved in coordinating to do it. Could even draw in more types of players by tucking lore tidbits into those optionals. Interested in finding out the story of when Bigpants the Halfling won his Orcish bride in battle? Well, there's 5 lore tablets (in addition to the other rewards) tucked away in the 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 man optionals in 'The Quest of the Large-Rumped Halfling'. If you want to see them, and the portraits of the halfling and his family (including their hideous half-orc/half-hobbit kids) then get a group (or a few, over time, however you go about it) and head on in!

Bunker
02-01-2014, 12:23 AM
Why people think this is a good idea?

Any suggestion that includes adding yet another bonus to give more xp will get people thinking it is a good idea.

Why it is a bad idea?

Any suggestion that makes people group simply for more xp is not a good idea. I don't think when they decided to introduce MMORPGs to the world, their advertising slogan said, "Join up and play with others to get full bonus on XP!"

So you think zergers or people that zerg can't do it in a full group?

IE. #1 Necro IV Vol quest. Player 1 gets left key, Player 2 gets right key, Player 3 does traps up top. All players drop down except player 3 while traps are finished. Players 5 and 6 immediately go do optional and kill along the way, all other players finish clearing by splitting off. And there you go. Full bonus in under 7 minutes.

There are countless quests in game that you can not only improve your time, but complete with full bonuses as a full party. Take the low level library quest. Disarmerlas(sp) book quest.

EI. #2 Player 1 and Player 2 go out and split off. Player 1 with electric resistance runs through middle of electric room and kills just the archer at end. Player 2 does the second room by hitting the 3 switches, and then retreats to the water avoiding all mobs. Players 3-6 wait at beginning and however has the highest Int hits switch in last room and searches for book to end quest. Quest done in 2 minute (roughly due to npc) and heck of a lot faster than soloing it.

The list goes on and on about the benefits of grouping. It really does.

What it comes down to is fiinding the group that fits YOUR play style. That is the challenge. So if you want to get players to group together more, you need to come up with a way for players to find each other. Try suggesting a way that Turbine can help players find those that fit well together. A way for players to find those with the same likes/dislikes.

AN E-Harmony of Gamers or something like that. :)

-Bunk

pHo3nix
02-01-2014, 06:02 AM
Or you can just rush through to get completion...
not get Conquest.
Not get Ransack.

and maybe not get +10% for keeping everyone alive.

You can get everything while zerging and splitting up, as long as people know what to do. Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes it's not. The problem is that you can't expect your usual pugger to be able to handle much on elite or to understand that sometimes he would be way more useful breaking breakables for ransack than trying to kill things with his +1 longbow of rapidstrikes. And i do not say this as derogative, cause i've been and i still am the ransack guy when that is the most useful thing i can do ;)

Flavilandile
02-01-2014, 06:44 AM
Death Penalty

You know that it's not a penalty but a bonus you don't get if there's a death ?

If you want a Death Penalty, the old system was great for that, and it was a great incentive to avoid dying. Loosing XPs ( real, already earned XP ) for a death that you had to earn back was a real penalty.
The No Death Bonus is just that : a Bonus. Like the break everything bonus ( that nobody cares about ) or the disarm all traps bonus ( also nobody cares about it )...

And really the problem is not that 10% bonus, it's the bravery streak. If you go on Streak you just can't join a group where your friends want to do a quest on normal or casual ( unless you have already done it ).

Uska
02-01-2014, 09:28 AM
How about:

If you die in the quest, you personally don't get the 10% bonus.

That should remain group

Uska
02-01-2014, 09:32 AM
Don't like a incentive to grouping should be a bonus not the possibility of letting you avoid losing another bonus it should be maybe 1% for every one beyond the first player max 10% so for standard quests it's 5% and raids 10% for full or nearly full parties


It really shouldn't be a large bonus

Uska
02-01-2014, 09:33 AM
If you want incentive - add a 3% Teamwork XP bonus for every person who joins a group after the group leader. This would yield a bonus of 15% for a full party - and should be incentive for trying to fill up a group. It would also offset the loss of a Flawless bonus should somebody die - and still have a little bit of bonus left to spare.

Kind of what I said but your bonus is bigger