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BoBoDaClown
01-19-2014, 08:06 PM
***UPDATED***

A bit of background: This has always been my main character, regardless the state of CC or Bards in the game. She was totally viable, without any past lives, up to the cap of 25; I then decided to get 3 wizard past lives under my belt.

I did not level this build in heroic, where CC and Healing are unnecessary most of the time (I LRed at 20).

This character either CCs or Heals for the group; if neither are needed in any given group, I'll switch to another Bard for that quest.

Note: with this update of the build, I have included some aspirational gear, that I don't yet have, such as thunder-forged, so the enchant DCs are one lower, until I get this gear.

The build:
Soza
Drow
20 Bard Spellsinger

Str: 8 (+3 tome)
Dex: 10 (+3 tome)
Con: 16 (+3 tome)
Int: 10 (+2 tome)
Wis: 8 (+3 tome)
Cha: 20 (+5 tome)

Skills: Balance, Concentration, Haggle, Perform, UMD, Heal

Feats (order doesn't matter):
1: Empower Heal
3: Quicken
6: Heighten
9: Spell focus
12: Greater Spell Focus
15: Wizzy Pastlife
18: Bard Pastlife
21: Inspire Excellence
24: Spell Penetration
27: Spell Penetration
26: Lasting Inspiration
28: Forced Escape
30: Will take Epic Spell Pen

KEY ENHANCEMENTS

DROW
+2 Cha, +1 Enchant DC

SPELLSINGER
Sewers, Dead, Makers
Virtuoso
Master of Life and Death (2 cha, Heal, Wail)
Magical Training (SP)
Lingering Songs
Wand/Scroll Heightening and Mastery 3
Marigold (+1 enchant)
Enthrallment
Spellsong Trance
2x Charisma
Sustaining Song
Spell Pen 3
Song of Arcane Might
Song of Capering
Adv Magical Studies 3 (SP)
Spellsong Vigor
Prodigy 3 (+2 enchant +2 spell pen, SP proc)

WARCHANTER
+20hp, +2 dam song, 36 pos spell power, +2 cha

EXALTED ANGEL (lacks spell pen in base ranks for bards)
Angelic Presence =+2 Cha
Mass Cure Moderate Wounds SLA
Soundburst SLA
Charisma 6
Leap of Faith
Spell Pen 3

FATESINGER
Base ranks= +7 spell levels for spell pen, +1 cha
+6 Charisma
Siren Song and Bound Fate (Mez + Debuffs)
Arcane Echo +2 Spell Pen or
Divine Echo +1 Cha, +25 spell power
Clarity (5% sp reduction)

POSSIBLE TWISTS:
-Cacoon
+3 Spell Pen Draconic
+3 Spell Pen Magister
+3 DC Magister
Soundburst SLA
Charisma

Notable Gear:
Thunderforged =+6 Enchant DC (need to gun for this)
+11 Charisma Item
Devotion/Healing Lore Item
+1 Exceptional Cha
+3 Insightful Cha
+7 Spell Penetration (Thunder-forged - gonna be what I run for now)
+1 Litany

I can then tweak Spell Pen Feats, DC Feats, Twists etc, to meet the following (note I can't have max Spell Pen and DC at the same time; will change according to current endgame content. At the moment I would go the DC route):

Max Sustainable CHA:
20 base (Drow)
07 levels
05 tome
02 drow enh.
04 SS and WC enh.
02 Master of L&D
06 Exalted Angel
02 Angelic Presence
02 Charisma Twists -------> note, I normally would not run with - I would run with this when I know I need to push the DCs as high as possible
11 Cha Item
03 Insight Item
01 Exceptional Item
01 Litany
02 Yugo
02 Inspire excellence
02 guild ship=

72 cha, normally 70

Max Sustainable DC=
10 base
06 Heighened spell
01 Drow enh
01 Marigold
02 Prodigy
03 Magister Twist
03 Exalted Angel
04 Focus Feats
06 item
01 spellsong
02 augment
30/31 charisma bonus

69/70 DC on Bard Spells

Soundburst SLA = 30/31 cha bonus + 28 levels + 10 = 68/69

Max Sustainable Spell Pen (I don't know if I got these numbers correct - would love someone to check them, if they know)
-Often wouldn't have close to this because I would be in Exalted Angel
-Certainly wouldn't do all those twists unless I really thought I would need them
-currently no room for epic spell pen

20 levels
06 Past lives
04 feats
07 item
05 Enhancements
03 Draconic Twist
03 Magister Twist
03 Exalted Angel Twist
07 Base Fatesinger
02 Arcane Echoes
---------
60 Spell Pen

Standard Build, I think would have:
Enchant DC: 69
Soundsurst: 68
Spell Pen: 50

Two Notes:
-I wouldn't level this build. I would level a pure 20 DPS Healing Bard, then LR
-Amusingly, you can get a workable necro DC for epic Hard, probably around 57

OVERALL BARDNESS
CC = Strong
Heal = Strong
Buff = Strong
DPS = non-existant


Thoughts/Comments would be appreciated!

Wipey
01-19-2014, 09:00 PM
With that DCs ( even 62 works very well ) you will make Wheloon and Stormhorns piece of cake except boss fights and parties will love you ( if smart enough to fight those assassins in discos ).
I would think just more focus on defences, dodge, prr and hp on such character.

Props for sticking with "no fotm" build too ! :)

Ailaesaedol
01-20-2014, 08:14 AM
I am used to running this toon without a DPS option; however, if I can still hit the DCs necessary and include a DPS option, I am all ears.


Well, its not popular, but the epic moment 'Turn of the tide' might interest you. Full BAB and 40% extra dmg on bosses could be useful if you've got a CHA to hit/dmg weapon. It also gives +4 CHA to your already great DCs for about a minute given all your extend song enhancements.

Chord of disruption would also be very nice on this build given the high CHA you have. I'd probably favour Chord of Disruption over the epic moment given your build and how it averages out to 1,253 damage before spell power and Fatesinger induced vulnerabilities.

But other than that, it looks a super strong and fun build in the right group.

BoBoDaClown
01-20-2014, 07:37 PM
Props for sticking with "no fotm" build too ! :)

Cheers :)


Well, its not popular, but the epic moment 'Turn of the tide' might interest you. Full BAB and 40% extra dmg on bosses could be useful if you've got a CHA to hit/dmg weapon. It also gives +4 CHA to your already great DCs for about a minute given all your extend song enhancements.

Chord of disruption would also be very nice on this build given the high CHA you have. I'd probably favour Chord of Disruption over the epic moment given your build and how it averages out to 1,253 damage before spell power and Fatesinger induced vulnerabilities.



Yeah - I forgot about the +4 cha from Turn of the Tide - could be useful to proc before important fights. I don't like relying on 'spikes' in DC, but a minute or so of enhanced DC might be worth playing around with.

What's the DC of Chord of Disruption?

Ailaesaedol
01-20-2014, 09:17 PM
What's the DC of Chord of Disruption?

Hmmm. Thats a good point, I always figured it had something to do with CHA mod, but its not listed at all. I must be thinking of Bound Fate. All it says is a Fort save, but given that it procs at the end of Siren's Song and Sirens Song would reduce any creatures Fort save by 12 at the top tier (2 CON dmg every second for 12 seconds) I think they'd have to roll a 20 to avoid full damage against you.

Im a bit bemused they havent given the formula for the DC though. I cant think of any other destiny ability that hasnt listed it.

maddong
01-20-2014, 10:04 PM
I think you would be a lot more well rounded in Draconic. You would go to 29 cha mod right?
But you would have DC 63 energy burst/dragon breath/flyby attack/daunting roar to round out your offense.
Daunting roar kind of acts like mass hold and lets you follow it up with a energy burst +/- dragon breath with helpless damage/nerfed reflex save.

BoBoDaClown
01-20-2014, 10:53 PM
I think you would be a lot more well rounded in Draconic. You would go to 29 cha mod right?
But you would have DC 63 energy burst/dragon breath/flyby attack/daunting roar to round out your offense.
Daunting roar kind of acts like mass hold and lets you follow it up with a energy burst +/- dragon breath with helpless damage/nerfed reflex save.

Just ran the numbers again - I think it would be +30 cha bonus.

I was thinking about twisting in daunting roar (that's the mass fear freeze right?) instead of cacoon when not primary healer.

Can fool around in the draconic destiny a bit more to see how your idea pans out - not too fussed about the destinies cos I can switch em around. Good idea to point out.

BoBoDaClown
01-21-2014, 07:05 PM
edited numbers a little

Abcchef
01-23-2014, 08:56 AM
Quite glad i stumbled across this. Im playing a bard up to epics with the intent of LRing into cc/heals/buffs type of character. Im wondering if you have a rough idea on how to get decent healing and sonic spellpower whilst doing this?

BoBoDaClown
01-23-2014, 01:30 PM
Quite glad i stumbled across this. Im playing a bard up to epics with the intent of LRing into cc/heals/buffs type of character. Im wondering if you have a rough idea on how to get decent healing and sonic spellpower whilst doing this?

Personally I find this character more useful when running epic elites - that's why I won't actually level in this build (will respec to it).

It has good Healing (positive power) built into it:
1) Empower Healing (improves all healing spells, including cacoon).
2) You could add maximise - gives your mass cures a nice buff, but doesn't work on cacoon or Heal.
3) Improve your Heal Skill.
4) Have a devotion/healing lore item.
5) Ardor clickies/potions.
6) Enhancements

Sonic spell power, I wouldn't work for since I don't find sonic damage on a bard particularly good, but if you were too:
1) Maximise
2) Empower
3) Perform Skill
4) Resonance Item + sonic lore
5) Cacophony clickies

You can pick up some spell power from your destinies as well.

khremlajn
02-01-2014, 05:15 PM
im big fan of diplomacy skill. id drop haggle for it.

play with destinies(problem with fatesinger is that it isnt rly that great for cc bard). As i remember i had high dc in healer one too(and access to great healing skill and some other cool stuff).

BoBoDaClown
02-02-2014, 11:02 PM
play with destinies(problem with fatesinger is that it isnt rly that great for cc bard.

Thanks for the feedback.

I think fatesinger offers the highest spell CC potential, because you can pump you charisma and caster level (for spell pen), and twist DC from Magister.

khremlajn
02-03-2014, 06:02 AM
thing is, exalted offers same charisma boost.

spell pen isnt needed so far. Thats why exalted is better, since it is boosting your heals, give wings etc.

even if you dont pick that one, you want to twist renewal

BoBoDaClown
02-03-2014, 09:42 PM
thing is, exalted offers same charisma boost.

spell pen isnt needed so far. Thats why exalted is better, since it is boosting your heals, give wings etc.

even if you dont pick that one, you want to twist renewal
i
You can pick up an extra cuple of charisma in the fatesinger tree (off memory, 2nd base rank, and one of the echoes)

Spell pen is important when running drow content, but not so much otherwise

Heals are good without exalted, but certainly exalted is an option

AzB
03-24-2014, 04:02 PM
Is this toon a completionist? Taking the feat would give you +2 cha. It might be worth giving up spell pen or spell focus positive in order to get the completionist feat. Or go PDK and pick up another feat, cha to damage, but lose 2 dc.

Wow, it's so close to being the perfect bard. I really like it.

I may try this if I ever find another lesser heart in a chest.

Tilomere
03-24-2014, 04:37 PM
Maybe twist Pin and Whistler as well as magistar DC. This can add in some instant no-save no-resist manaless CC with a thrown weapon, and Pin gives the party helpless damage bonuses. Plus if you are tossing a debuffing or paralyzing spelltouched shuriken, it will add in even more mana-less CC and make your spells easier to land. I think it is leaving things on the table to only build around heroic and not both heroic and ED CC if you want to do EE content.

Propane
03-24-2014, 04:59 PM
Have you looked at a PDK?

LR+1 and go pure Bard - get a little more meele options...

BoBoDaClown
03-25-2014, 02:17 AM
Is this toon a completionist? Taking the feat would give you +2 cha. It might be worth giving up spell pen or spell focus positive in order to get the completionist feat. Or go PDK and pick up another feat, cha to damage, but lose 2 dc.


Not a completionist unfortunately; I hate TRing. While the PDK thing is tempting, I'm not willing to sacrifice the primary function of CC or Healing, considering I would also want to pick up some feats to do worthwhile damage. I would consider it a more well rounded build to go for PDK, but this isn't well rounded; I want to go in feeling I have provided the top CC I can. If I find that my DCs are too hgih at some point, I will change to PDK. With no melee option, I would simply avoid taking this character in a party where her CC or Healing is not needed (this has been the case all the years of playing her).


Maybe twist Pin and Whistler as well as magistar DC. This can add in some instant no-save no-resist manaless CC with a thrown weapon, and Pin gives the party helpless damage bonuses. Plus if you are tossing a debuffing or paralyzing spelltouched shuriken, it will add in even more mana-less CC and make your spells easier to land. I think it is leaving things on the table to only build around heroic and not both heroic and ED CC if you want to do EE content.

Some interesting thoughts here - it is a EE only build. Will try out your ideas.


Have you looked at a PDK?
LR+1 and go pure Bard - get a little more meele options...
Look at the response to AzB.

This character is on her final life at the moment. Currently around level 16. Is leveling as a TWF DPS Pure Bard, and will LR at 20 into final EE Build. I hate TRing, and don't have the time for more lives. If I did, I would build in some Sorc past lives for some evo DC, with the changes to Soundburst; that would be fantastic, but I shudder at the thought of more lives.

I will update this build at I go through my 20s, get new equipment etc. I will post my experiences playing around with the different destinies, and how they augment this character.

Thanks for the feedback guys :)

cacyreus
03-26-2014, 04:55 AM
Its really nice to find out someone with similar plans for bard. The build you present here is very similar to the one im designing for my own bard.
looking at some of the critics I have read I must say that this is a caster build for what could be most likely the ultimate support in the game!

Supreme crowd control, because yes if for some reason spell dont work I believe a fascinate with a minimum DC close to 100 will do the job :D
There is little room for melee, but if that is a concern--> Elyd Edge for the win.

Would love to know if there is a higher level cha weapon, anyone knows?

Healing ability- on heroic is more than enough to solo heal normal raids and to be a second healer on hard or elite. The real challange here is epic content, but I believe it will do fine.

All this comes attached to lots of bard love (buffs).

To people concerned with defenses, high saves can be achieved with gear and greatly improve the survivability-- this I learned from my bard fellow Shyr in Sarlona, before epic destinies and new enhancements but it should be wirth to look at.


Well, back to the lives I so much hate to do: 2 BARD (completed), 3 WIZ (completed), 3 FVS (ongoing) and 3 SORC next on the train, by the time I finish with the past lives everything will have changed!

cru121
03-26-2014, 05:52 AM
Would love to know if there is a higher level cha weapon, anyone knows?

http://ddowiki.com/page/List_of_weapons_with_unusual_attack_or_damage_mods #Melee_weapons

BoBoDaClown
03-26-2014, 11:02 PM
Would love to know if there is a higher level cha weapon, anyone knows?

eElyd Edge and eDynastic Falcate. Tbh; I spent a long time at cap with this toon, and a charisma weapon with no feats really didn't feel worth the bother of swinging.

Healing ability- on heroic is more than enough to solo heal normal raids and to be a second healer on hard or elite. The real challange here is epic content, but I believe it will do fine.

I solo healed most epic elite content, raids, dungeons, sometimes being both Healer and CCer, so don't sell yourself short here. This was possible before cacoon and heal spell for bards. This game has over healing. Note, my comments are not based on post 25 play, because when the level caps went up was roughly the time I started to TR.

Well, back to the lives I so much hate to do: 2 BARD (completed), 3 WIZ (completed), 3 FVS (ongoing) and 3 SORC next on the train, by the time I finish with the past lives everything will have changed!

If you don't like the lives I wouldn't do it; Bards are pretty capable out of the box, since they have fascinate/enthrall to augment their spells if they are struggling, and you already have multiple lives. I guess the + evo DC would rock. Only reason why I did my lives is because I wasn't doing much endgame play there for a bit due to a timezone change

BoBoDaClown
04-09-2014, 01:25 AM
Playing around with changes to Exalted Angel.

Give +3 to DCs, plus a very high DC SLA soundburst, negating the need for evo past lives.

Loses some spell pen, so may use it for my high DC quests, then swapping into Magister for my high spell pen quests, twisting in spell pen from elsewhere.

A question: I haven't run the new raids yet; is there any CC potential there, or will I be joining as a healer?

Schmackdown
04-10-2014, 11:24 AM
What spells do you use regularly that require those DCs? Is it mostly just danceball? Heightened hypno? Charms? Sonic?

My main at one time was a min/max full-DC build, but I realized that the only thing I needed Enchantment DCs for was danceball. I dumped all of the DC stuff after that in favor of more healing and just stuck to Enthrallment, Irresistible and Capering for CC.

One thing that took me an embarrassingly long time to put together was that the only time I needed the d-ball was when I was running with a group that had no situational or tactical awareness.

BoBoDaClown
04-11-2014, 04:10 AM
What spells do you use regularly that require those DCs? Is it mostly just danceball? Heightened hypno? Charms? Sonic?

Hold Monster/Hold Person combo, Soundburst, Dancing Balls when an en masse attack is due, Mass Charms very rarely. Hypno is only used unheightened as a debuff.

My main at one time was a min/max full-DC build, but I realized that the only thing I needed Enchantment DCs for was danceball. I dumped all of the DC stuff after that in favor of more healing and just stuck to Enthrallment, Irresistible and Capering for CC.

I aim to try to keep everything helpless, so it is taking extra damage

One thing that took me an embarrassingly long time to put together was that the only time I needed the d-ball was when I was running with a group that had no situational or tactical awareness.
Your experience may vary, but I still find a real need for CC in EE content. Admittedly, I haven't used a dancing ball since I regained 20 (24 now), but I use my Holds/Soundburst to great effect. I pug exclusively - perhaps guild/channel runs of 6 great toons don't need CC for EE, but in the pug runs I generally get, even with solid players, CC makes things go smooth....
:)

BoBoDaClown
04-20-2014, 11:35 PM
Updated OP to include changes to the build.

Moved spell pen feats in and a bit of focus out - I think my DCs will be high enough, but will experiment with this.

ZeebaNeighba
04-21-2014, 12:55 AM
Thanks for the feedback.

I think fatesinger offers the highest spell CC potential, because you can pump you charisma and caster level (for spell pen), and twist DC from Magister.No with exalted angel's recent change, one of the innate abilities gives +3 DCs. Also another one gives +2 charisma while above half health, so fatesinger doesn't have as much charisma advantage. Fatesinger is only better if you desperately need caster levels. Even then Exalted angel has a tier 3 ability for +3 spell pen.

edit: missed page 2, oops. I see you decided on exalted angel.

BoBoDaClown
04-21-2014, 01:53 AM
No with exalted angel's recent change, one of the innate abilities gives +3 DCs. Also another one gives +2 charisma while above half health, so fatesinger doesn't have as much charisma advantage. Fatesinger is only better if you desperately need caster levels. Even then Exalted angel has a tier 3 ability for +3 spell pen.

edit: missed page 2, oops. I see you decided on exalted angel.

Yeah - build was initially pre- Exalted Angel changes

Arcanegrin
04-23-2014, 12:26 PM
Just to mention the thunderforge +6 dc staff will also give +1 exceptional dc. It also should give you one +150 spell power (devotion for you) and have an orange, red and if you finish upgrading it a colorless socket. So you could slot more spell power if needed for this build.

---

Nevermind I see your going for a +spell penetration + a +dc combo. Still you'll have +150 spell power from each of these.

---

How are your Enchant DCs now in Exalted Angel?

BoBoDaClown
04-23-2014, 04:35 PM
Just to mention the thunderforge +6 dc staff will also give +1 exceptional dc. It also should give you one +150 spell power (devotion for you) and have an orange, red and if you finish upgrading it a colorless socket. So you could slot more spell power if needed for this build.

---

Nevermind I see your going for a +spell penetration + a +dc combo. Still you'll have +150 spell power from each of these.

---

How are your Enchant DCs now in Exalted Angel?

Interesting. Thanks for info. That content is new to me atm. I think I will make that staff first; I'm prioritising dc.
Away from comp. Think 67 in Exalted Angel. Can pump to 69 if I really need quite easily. So lookimg forward to Thunderforged to add on top of that.

Cheers for info

maddmatt70
07-06-2014, 12:07 PM
I was thinking of changing my spellsinger to more of a mass hold/nuker/healer with the new spellsinger line. Concept is mass hold targets then cast SLAs, great shout, etc.
I have similiar feats as you, but thinking swapping out epic spell focus enchantment and two spell penetration feats for maximize, empower and spell focus evocation.
Then twisting evocation from draconic and enchantment from magister and cacoon for healing.

The problem I am having is by becoming more of a nuker I would get aggro much more and my survivability just seems so dreadful. Poor hit points, saves, physical resistance and dodge. Only self healing and displacement for defense really. There appears to be no way to get the saves high enough to matter other then fitting in force of personality would get will up, but I do not think worth it. I was thinking about spell absorption and perhaps energy absorbtion items, but seems really unreliable. The hit points seem really bad however I shake it 750 hpish. I wonder if spellsinger bards need a lot of epic past lives to make work now? Perhaps you and some other bards have an idea from a gear standpoint or etc.

Edit: one idea I have been thinking about is going with unyielding sentinel which would at least infuse 400+ hp and other defensive capabilities. Obviously that would mean less dc by 3 or so, less spell penetration, less bard caster level, songs or nice offensive slas, etc..