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Knockback
01-08-2014, 04:33 PM
Hello everyone! We're planning another round of quest XP adjustments for Update 21, and we'd like to get your thoughts.

We've been listening to your feedback, so this time around we're looking specifically at epic quests. The exact details are still somewhat fluid, but I can definitely say we've increased the experience for 17 quests. Those quests are:

• Chains of Flame (Epic only)
• Trial By Fury (Epic only)
• The Druid's Curse (Epic only)
• Thorn and Paw (Epic only)
• Outbreak (Epic only)
• In The Belly of the Beast (Epic only)
• The House of Death Undone (Epic only)
• The Tracker's Trap (both Epic and Heroic)
• What Goes Up (both Epic and Heroic)
• Breaking the Ranks (both Epic and Heroic)
• A Break in the Ice (both Epic and Heroic)
• Lines of Supply (both Epic and Heroic)
• Army of Shadow (both Epic and Heroic)
• Through a Mirror Darkly (both Epic and Heroic)
• The Thrill of the Hunt (both Epic and Heroic)
• Friends in Low Places (both Epic and Heroic)
• A Lesson in Deception (both Epic and Heroic)

We’re also planning to reduce the XP for one quest (on Epic only):

• Jungle of Khyber (Epic only)

Our goal is to get the XP numbers more in line with how long it takes to actually complete a quest. Some of the adjustments are minor - 6% more base XP for A Lesson in Deception, for example. Many of the changes are quite substantial. Ten of the quests have had their base XP raised by more than 20%. What Goes Up has had its base XP changed by ... Well, let's not ruin the surprise. Let's just say it's a nice, impressive number.

I don't see [insert quest name here] in this list. Does that mean that quest isn't going to be adjusted?

Just because a quest isn't listed here doesn't mean its XP won't be tweaked either up or down in a future release, or even for Update 21. We are definitely planning on more rounds of XP adjustments further on down the road.

For some quests we're just waiting for the right time to make the changes. For example, we'll be adjusting the Heroic XP in Three Barrel Cove when we add Epic mode to that area.

For other quests we're evaluating what the right fix is. Should we adjust the base XP? Change the optional XP? Alter the contents of the quest itself? Or some combination of the three? Given the sheer number of unique quests in DDO, it will be a while before can we give every one the full attention it deserves.


Why is this happening now? Why weren't these XP values changed earlier?

As PurpleFooz explained in the fall (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/427517-Quest-XP-Changes-for-Update-20?p=5126181&viewfull=1#post5126181), we only recently got the ability to fine-tune XP - Epic XP in particular. We also wanted to give people time to get familiar with the Shadowfell Conspiracy quests before we started changing their XP values.


Don't you think you should change [insert quest here]?

If you have ideas for which specific quests should be adjusted (or not adjusted) and why, this thread is the perfect place to talk about it. Please use this thread to discuss!

Knockback
Senior Content Designer

Qhualor
01-08-2014, 04:38 PM
Hello everyone! We're planning another round of quest XP adjustments for Update 21, and we'd like to get your thoughts.


We’re also planning to reduce the XP for one quest (on Epic only):

• Jungle of Khyber (Epic only)

Our goal is to get the XP numbers more in line with how long it takes to actually complete a quest. Some of the adjustments are minor - 6% more base XP for A Lesson in Deception, for example. Many of the changes are quite substantial. Ten of the quests have had their base XP raised by more than 20%. What Goes Up has had its base XP changed by ... Well, let's not ruin the surprise. Let's just say it's a nice, impressive number.

prepare for the rage muahahahaha :)

Drwaz99
01-08-2014, 04:41 PM
Yup, get your VON3's in now. I have a feeling that one is going to sting..

LOOON375
01-08-2014, 04:43 PM
A Cabal For One has horrendously low XP on repeats. Something like 15-16K for an EH run.

UurlockYgmeov
01-08-2014, 04:43 PM
+1 for increasing XP
+1 for communication! keep it coming!

Carkolda
01-08-2014, 04:46 PM
prepare for the rage muahahahaha :)

As long as they don't **** us like they did for challenges, I don't see this being a problem. At least we didn't pay 1500 TP for VON and have the whole thing ruined in one pass.

Icywave
01-08-2014, 04:46 PM
Hello everyone! We're planning another round of quest XP adjustments for Update 21, and we'd like to get your thoughts.

We’re also planning to reduce the XP for one quest (on Epic only):

• Jungle of Khyber (Epic only)

Senior Content Designer

By how much? Though on a personal basis, I will be done farming xp by Update 21, not sure how well this is gonna go in general. This is THE quest fo XP at the moment. Then again, it would make sense, cuz it is too easy.

What I would like to see, is a marked difference for the xp received from Epic Elites.

Portalcat
01-08-2014, 04:46 PM
Thank-you. Sincerely, thank-you.





As someone who primarily runs epic content, the XP distribution needs pretty much that exact overhaul. VoN3 is modestly high but mostly everything near level cap is way too low for its relative difficulty. I'm really glad to hear about the WGU bump - it takes really good parties full of EE regulars often over an hour with many deaths to complete on EE.


My main suggestion would be to explore a general bump to the XP on EE difficulty relative to EH. Right now, epic XP across difficulties is currently scaled the same way that HN-HH-HE are scaled despite the fact that the difference in difficulty and time to complete is much greater from EH to EE than it is from HH to HE.

DagazUlf
01-08-2014, 04:47 PM
We’re also planning to reduce the XP for one quest (on Epic only):

• Jungle of Khyber (Epic only)


Lame.

Grosbeak07
01-08-2014, 04:47 PM
VoN 3 has been coming. Hopefully it's only a small decrease.

But that's all people want to run to level. More xp in other quests, means hopefully people will be willing to run other stuff too.

My only suggestion would be to raise the xp of both House D Epics (Bargain of Blood, etc.) and Red Fens. Both those areas could use a boost (And loot overhaul, but I'll take an xp boost for now).

Grosbeak07
01-08-2014, 04:48 PM
Lame.

Dag... you knew this was coming. You even said so yourself :)

dunklezhan
01-08-2014, 04:50 PM
I'd prefer raising xp of optionals to reward thoroughness rather than zerging to the main objective.

Qhualor
01-08-2014, 04:53 PM
Our goal is to get the XP numbers more in line with how long it takes to actually complete a quest. Some of the adjustments are minor - 6% more base XP for A Lesson in Deception, for example. Many of the changes are quite substantial. Ten of the quests have had their base XP raised by more than 20%. What Goes Up has had its base XP changed by ... Well, let's not ruin the surprise. Let's just say it's a nice, impressive number.

can you explain this part in more detail please? is this based on taking the average time from xp/min players and flowersniffers? is difficulty of a quest figured into the equation as well? i know that can be difficult to figure out because what one considers difficult another may consider easy. is there actual data that you guys keep track of how long quests take to complete and how often quests are played on average? i just think how fast players can complete a quest should not be the only thing considered when figuring out xp numbers for quests.

redspecter23
01-08-2014, 04:54 PM
Nobody should be surprised about VoN 3. It was nice while it lasted. It's a shame that it took so long to get some improvements for the xp from the last expansion. It really should have released with better xp to increase sales and decrease the bad player reviews a bit. Nice to see it, but about 5 months too late on that one.

The druid chain could probably use a bump on heroic as well as epic. I'm wondering why it wasn't considered.

CaptainSpacePony
01-08-2014, 05:00 PM
Hello everyone! We're planning another round of quest XP adjustments for Update 21, and we'd like to get your thoughts.

We've been listening to your feedback, so this time around we're looking specifically at epic quests. The exact details are still somewhat fluid, but I can definitely say we've increased the experience for 17 quests. Those quests are:

We’re also planning to reduce the XP for one quest (on Epic only):

• Jungle of Khyber (Epic only)

Our goal is to get the XP numbers more in line with how long it takes to actually complete a quest.

For some quests we're just waiting for the right time to make the changes. For example, we'll be adjusting the Heroic XP in Three Barrel Cove when we add Epic mode to that area.

For other quests we're evaluating what the right fix is. Should we adjust the base XP? Change the optional XP? Alter the contents of the quest itself? Or some combination of the three? Given the sheer number of unique quests in DDO, it will be a while before can we give every one the full attention it deserves.


Why is this happening now? Why weren't these XP values changed earlier?

As PurpleFooz explained in the fall (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/427517-Quest-XP-Changes-for-Update-20?p=5126181&viewfull=1#post5126181), we only recently got the ability to fine-tune XP - Epic XP in particular. We also wanted to give people time to get familiar with the Shadowfell Conspiracy quests before we started changing their XP values.


Don't you think you should change [insert quest here]?

If you have ideas for which specific quests should be adjusted (or not adjusted) and why, this thread is the perfect place to talk about it. Please use this thread to discuss!

Knockback
Senior Content Designer

EN Von 3--100k in 7ish minutes might be a bit over the top compared to, I don't know... EVERYTHING ELSE. I applaud this change (even though I currently run it a lot now).

As mentioned above, Epic Cabal needs a bump.
I'd also bump Feast or Famine.

Although you said specifically epic quests, Hold for Reinforcements needs the base XP increased by about 1000%!!!

rest
01-08-2014, 05:03 PM
Hello everyone! We're planning another round of quest XP adjustments for Update 21, and we'd like to get your thoughts.

We've been listening to your feedback, so this time around we're looking specifically at epic quests. The exact details are still somewhat fluid, but I can definitely say we've increased the experience for 17 quests. Those quests are:


• The Druid's Curse (Epic only)
• Thorn and Paw (Epic only)
• Outbreak (Epic only)
• The Tracker's Trap (both Epic and Heroic)
• What Goes Up (both Epic and Heroic)
• Breaking the Ranks (both Epic and Heroic)
• A Break in the Ice (both Epic and Heroic)
• Lines of Supply (both Epic and Heroic)
• Army of Shadow (both Epic and Heroic)
• Through a Mirror Darkly (both Epic and Heroic)
• The Thrill of the Hunt (both Epic and Heroic)
• Friends in Low Places (both Epic and Heroic)
• A Lesson in Deception (both Epic and Heroic)

Unless you increase the XP in these by a factor of one million, I'll never willingly set foot in them. Maybe not even then. I grudgingly do the prison for PDK favour. I think these quests are bad quests, and I don't enjoy running them.


We’re also planning to reduce the XP for one quest (on Epic only):

• Jungle of Khyber (Epic only)

Farming Karma sucks already. Lowering the XP in Von 3 is going to make it suck even more. It's VERY obvious that you're all disappointed that more people don't run Shadowfail content (there's a reason it has that nickname) and you're trying your damndest to get people out there. I'm not sure more XP is gonna do it. I only run the prison junk on HE for favour purposes when I don't feel like going through the other stuff on EE. And also skipping the yawnfest challenges that give PDK favour.

Since Harper favour is utterly useless (Harper Pin never worked for me so I don't even bother anymore) I don't need to do it.

GL getting people to run awful content though. You're gonna need it.

CaptainSpacePony
01-08-2014, 05:06 PM
On second thought, while I applaud this refinement, I personally don't much care about epic XP. I hit lvl 28 fast enough, and wallow there scrounging for comms.

Sooo, I know it's off topic, but since someone (me) brought comms up, I feel the comm rewards need about a 30-50% increase. Even if that creates a small surplus of comms, that wouldn't be so bad. It would be nice to see a reward list and not think of it as "Things I CAN'T have".

CaptainSpacePony
01-08-2014, 05:08 PM
Since Harper favour is utterly useless (Harper Pin never worked for me so I don't even bother anymore) I don't need to do it.


FYI Harper Pins work these days. I find them quite useful. They were fixed... sometime before now.

Livmo
01-08-2014, 05:08 PM
Thank you for doing this.

I like the Shadowfell content, but there was not much motivation to run it after the first tour due to items and xp. Although I like to run the quests it seems hard to fill an LFM for them.

On the other hand filling a VON3 is quick and easy. Always a full boat.

Hopefully there will be more Shadowfell LFMs and less VON3s.

However it might upset some people if you reduce the VON3 xp. I won't be offended tho. The new content is more fun than running VON3 oodles of times (because its what folks want to do allott).

For the critics out there that may feel pressured to buy Shadowfell due to the proposed changes. I got it on Cyber Monday for $14.99 for my alt. That deal may or may not come around again. Please lobby for guest passes so I can get some for my guildies. Thanks.

LOOON375
01-08-2014, 05:09 PM
I agree on the Khyber run. It's just too easy and too much XP for what it is. BUT DO NOT NUKE IT TOO FAR. There still needs to be a reason to run it.

shadowowl
01-08-2014, 05:10 PM
here are some suggestions.
have XP scale based on people in group since dungeon difficulty scales why not xp? this would encourage more pugs even if many players have no problem solo/duo a boost in xp will give incentive to invite players that perhaps can't solo/duo those same quests allowing for a more social environment.
increase the xp jump from normal-hard-elite in epic quests there is a HUGE difference in difficulty from doing say a Von 3 epic normal to doing a Von 3 Epic Elite yet the xp difference is minimal after first time/streak bonus.

And perhaps the xp scale could not be effected by hires so it has to be a real player in group in order to increase the xp doesn't even have to be much say 1% extra of base per each player after 1 so 6 players = 5% bonus for full party. It's really not a game breaker should give it some thought :)

Deadlock
01-08-2014, 05:10 PM
Our goal is to get the XP numbers more in line with how long it takes to actually complete a quest.

Do yourself a massive favour here and take some advice.

Please state clearly
(1) what your target range of xp per minute is in coming to these decisions for Heroic and Epic Normal, Hard and Elite? I'm assuming you don't have a single number of xp/min to aim for.
(2) what data do you base your times on?

Without this information, we have no way of coming back to you with any sort of useful feedback on what we consider acceptable/worthwhile/WAI.

LOOON375
01-08-2014, 05:10 PM
FYI Harper Pins work these days. I find them quite useful. They were fixed... sometime before now.That pin has saved my arse more times than I can count lately, especially during lol VON3 runs. cha ching

Braegan
01-08-2014, 05:11 PM
I hope lowering XP in Von3 won't be a huge amount. Yes, it's quick and easy xp. But, it doesn't hurt to have an easier quest with good xp for leveling karma and/or off destinies. And with the new ransack system most folks never run it more then twice a day and then go run something else. Not saying I didn't see this coming, but hoping it's not going to be nuked from orbit.

Good list of quests to increase, glad to see Chains of Flame on that list. For the time involved both running to and running the quest it really needs a boost.

rest
01-08-2014, 05:11 PM
On second thought, while I applaud this refinement, I personally don't much care about epic XP. I hit lvl 28 fast enough, and wallow there scrounging for comms.

Sooo, I know it's off topic, but since someone (me) brought comms up, I feel the comm rewards need about a 30-50% increase. Even if that creates a small surplus of comms, that wouldn't be so bad. It would be nice to see a reward list and not think of it as "Things I CAN'T have".
End rewards are EXACTLY that: things I can't have. Stupid Comms.

FYI Harper Pins work these days. I find them quite useful. They were fixed... sometime before now.

Well the pin is still not enough incentive to run that awful content. Good to know that the one guy who has one will get some use out of it. Someday.

Livmo
01-08-2014, 05:15 PM
FYI Harper Pins work these days. I find them quite useful. They were fixed... sometime before now.

I threw mine away some time back. I probably should have checked it before chucking it.

Erik_Loki
01-08-2014, 05:16 PM
DON'T TOUCH VON 3... The risk is lose many players.... adjust what you want but not Jungle of Khyber...

slarden
01-08-2014, 05:17 PM
Von 3 isn't the best xp/min in the game, it's just a quest you can safely let PUGs join without much risk. Another blow to the casuals on top of the ETR system.

I would really like to see a featured quest/chain of the month that has xp increased substantially. This will help newer and casual players learn it since there will be many lfms for it.

Anyhow, thank you for increasing the base xp for those quests. U15 and U19 are part of my rotation and I will net more xp from this change than I will lose for sure. Maybe I'll run what goes up more although I hate any quest where I have to ddoor in the end fight area to use a shrine near the beginning. The placement of shrines and sp usage do not line up. The purple haze is annoying especially if you are running from the shrine back to the end fight area.

Certon
01-08-2014, 05:18 PM
Comments in red.


Hello everyone! We're planning another round of quest XP adjustments for Update 21, and we'd like to get your thoughts.

We've been listening to your feedback, so this time around we're looking specifically at epic quests. The exact details are still somewhat fluid, but I can definitely say we've increased the experience for 17 quests. Those quests are:

• Chains of Flame (Epic only)
• Trial By Fury (Epic only)
• The Druid's Curse (Epic only)
• Thorn and Paw (Epic only)
• Outbreak (Epic only)
• In The Belly of the Beast (Epic only)
• The House of Death Undone (Epic only)
These needed a big boost. Semi-fun quests but terrible xp/min, especially Chains of Flame. Also, you might consider making In the Belly of the Beast easier to find.

• The Tracker's Trap (both Epic and Heroic)
• What Goes Up (both Epic and Heroic)
• Breaking the Ranks (both Epic and Heroic)
• A Break in the Ice (both Epic and Heroic)
• Lines of Supply (both Epic and Heroic)
• Army of Shadow (both Epic and Heroic)
• Through a Mirror Darkly (both Epic and Heroic)
• The Thrill of the Hunt (both Epic and Heroic)
• Friends in Low Places (both Epic and Heroic)
• A Lesson in Deception (both Epic and Heroic)
What can I say? An XP increase of 100% wouldn't cut it. These quests are remote, OR they have Shaddar-Kai chain swinging maniacs, and these mobs are completely un-fun. Reduce the damage of the chains on all levels, have a maximum of two spawn in any single encounter, or make the chains unstackable (a la blade barrier.)

We’re also planning to reduce the XP for one quest (on Epic only):

• Jungle of Khyber (Epic only)
Saw this coming a mile away. It was fun while it lasted.

Woebringer
01-08-2014, 05:21 PM
Helen Keller could see that eVon3, especially on Normal, was giving an inordinate experience for the level of effort. You don't have to be Nostradamus or some sort of MMO Elitist to see that an adjustment was coming.

Truth be told an adjustment is most likely very warranted for the overall "big picture" health of the game. 7k+ per named and 60-80k+ end reward XP for a quick normal run? Really?!?



A Polite Request: Let's equip the Scalpel and not the Chainsaw when it comes to making adjustments. This has been an area of great concern for long time players.
If the Pendulum swings too far the quest will just be "scrapped" and/or be one of those "one and done" flagging quests. That would be a shame as someone put the time in on the design and implementation side.
Before the recent XP Update the quest was run for positive gains and *gasp* for Fun. Perhaps a Rollback rather than a wheel-reinvention...

Thanks.

DagazUlf
01-08-2014, 05:22 PM
Dag... you knew this was coming. You even said so yourself :)

I know, but it's just really seeming like there's a Turbine conspiracy to kill anything fun.

Jasparion
01-08-2014, 05:26 PM
Hello everyone! We're planning another round of quest XP adjustments for Update 21, and we'd like to get your thoughts.

We've been listening to your feedback, so this time around we're looking specifically at epic quests. The exact details are still somewhat fluid, but I can definitely say we've increased the experience for 17 quests. Those quests are:
• The House of Death Undone (Epic only)

We’re also planning to reduce the XP for one quest (on Epic only):

• Jungle of Khyber (Epic only)



Not sure why House of Death Undone got buffed. I thought it was a reasonable amount. But I guess some people choose to run all of the options which take a while.

For VON 3 I think it is sensible, because it is a broken amount of XP, but only if you are able to increase XP from other dungeons at that level. The buffs to XP you are providing are for higher level dungeons so taking away VON 3 means we struggle in the level 20 to 23 range.

I would suggest coming out right now and saying that the next round of buffs will be slight increases to VON 1, 2, and 4, plus the Sentinels series, Lords of Dust series (I know you guys dont like making the free stuff too popular - but you should). Plus look at the other Eberron dungeons. Again, this means making old content more viable. But new players will still buy old packs if the content is good, the gear is good, and the XP is good.

My other suggestion would be that you consider future changes to Optional XP. If you want people to enjoy all of the dungeons which you go through a massive amount of work designing, dont just buff the end reward which encourages people to stealth through and go for dungeon ransack.

Buff the optionals. Buff the rewards / drops in optional chests. Encourage the full exploration of dungeons. Then we get to decide whether to zerg or whether to explore. Both options should provide solid XP / min.

A perfect example is Tear of Dhakaan. You can zerg for big, fast end XP, or you can do all of the optionals for a bundle of XP. This dungeon is brilliant because the solo guy can zerg, and large groups can split and each take a different path and can meet up at the end fight.

I will repeat this because some zerger will jump on this post attacking me for daring to threaten their playing style. I am not threatening your playing style. Im saying different playing styles should be rewarded equally. You can zerg for your XP. Someone else can do a full explore for their XP. Both should be totally viable options.

Leclaire1
01-08-2014, 05:29 PM
Nice job all around, and these are all positive changes in my estimation. Thanks!

As to other quests which need adjustment, I'll repreat what many of us have already said- Hold for Reinforcements.

This is the absolutely, fundamentally worst xp return for the serious effort it takes to complete in all of ddo. I suspect its so bad because its only one area and the old formulas were hooked to the surface area of a dungeon, but it takes 15 minutes of intense action. You should fix this because it will make more people willing to run this otherwise excellent pack, and might boost its sales. People don't just complain about Coyle because he is an idiot- they complain about him because he is a complete idiot who is really difficulty to defend and the lack of any reward (855xp on elite!- Can we think of a crappier return on investment!!!!) for protecting him feels like we're getting screwed. We'd be more willing to take on the unpleasant duty if there were significant rewards commensurate with the achievement.

stricq
01-08-2014, 05:29 PM
I'd prefer raising xp of optionals to reward thoroughness rather than zerging to the main objective.

Yes, please.

Jasparion
01-08-2014, 05:32 PM
Spanner-in-the-works time.

Boosting the XP means we get less Comms on our way to 28. I hope you take this in to account when you finally get around to dropping the requirement from 4,200.

Thanks.

I now have 3.3m XP and about 680 Comms. I have hardly repeated anything. Ive only done VON 3 a couple of times. I did EE VON 5 which gave 200k XP for nothing, but that is still only a small part of my total XP.

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but feel that Comms need to be considered as much as anything else, when you are making fundamental changes to the game.

xTethx
01-08-2014, 05:38 PM
If the boost is anything like spies in the house got than this is going to be awesome. I applaud this all around.

Tuffgar
01-08-2014, 05:41 PM
Turbine,

How about instead of dropping the exp on some quests, you raise the exp on a LOT of others to make them more attractive to run. This tiny list of increases, while good, only scratches the surface. Jungle of Khyber isn't run so much simply because it's worth a giant pile of exp, but also because it's a fairly straightforward quest. There's no annoying hoops to jump through, no puzzles, no back and forth running. Just a more or less straight line to the end with a boss fight. It's just a simple standalone quest, worth good exp, that's right next to the Airship.

Look at the other options for level 9 quests: Threnal? Don't make me laugh! Annoying escort missions, failure states, out of the way in an explorer area, and worth relatively poor exp. The same goes for Redfens: Quests in an explorer area with gimmicks. The underwater mechanics of Into the Deep and Fathom the Depths are poor. The Last Stand has a failure state and is basically standing around waiting for enemies to arrive. The Claw of Vulkoor can be zerged with invis(kinda), but it's still more of a gimmick than the straight zerg run of Jungle of Khyber, and is worth less exp.

The only other quest at level 9 that competes with Jungle is the Shadow Crypt, but even THAT has to done using a workaround to repeat it, and most people require a wiki guide to complete in reasonable time.

The problem is far more complex than simply how much time it takes to complete a quest. Even the time it takes to complete is more complex when you take into account the travel to actually reach the quest entrance.

Turbine, you need to take a step back and really try to understand why people run the quests they do. It's NOT simply a matter of how much exp a quest is worth. Fiddling around with exp values needs to be done in a more comprehensive manner, with much better understanding of how and why players run each quest(or don't run it, in some cases).

SilkofDrasnia
01-08-2014, 05:41 PM
Unless you increase the XP in these by a factor of one million, I'll never willingly set foot in them. Maybe not even then. I grudgingly do the prison for PDK favour. I think these quests are bad quests, and I don't enjoy running them.

Farming Karma sucks already. Lowering the XP in Von 3 is going to make it suck even more. It's VERY obvious that you're all disappointed that more people don't run Shadowfail content (there's a reason it has that nickname) and you're trying your damndest to get people out there. I'm not sure more XP is gonna do it. I only run the prison junk on HE for favour purposes when I don't feel like going through the other stuff on EE. And also skipping the yawnfest challenges that give PDK favour.

Since Harper favour is utterly useless (Harper Pin never worked for me so I don't even bother anymore) I don't need to do it.

GL getting people to run awful content though. You're gonna need it.

Pretty much in agreement with this, these quests suck and I really don't want to run them.



Thank you for doing this.

I like the Shadowfell content, but there was not much motivation to run it after the first tour due to items and xp. Although I like to run the quests it seems hard to fill an LFM for them.

On the other hand filling a VON3 is quick and easy. Always a full boat.

Hopefully there will be more Shadowfell LFMs and less VON3s.

However it might upset some people if you reduce the VON3 xp. I won't be offended tho. The new content is more fun than running VON3 oodles of times (because its what folks want to do allott).

For the critics out there that may feel pressured to buy Shadowfell due to the proposed changes. I got it on Cyber Monday for $14.99 for my alt. That deal may or may not come around again. Please lobby for guest passes so I can get some for my guildies. Thanks.

I think those of us that dislike these quest will not like them any better because they get a xp increase, I sure as **** wont be putting up a lfm for them even with these changes. As for the price of the pack shadowfail deserves its name and even 15$ is too much for it.

What really annoys me is the people that moan and groan on the forums think getting stuff nerfed will "force" people to play with them in their "preferred sandbox" and quite frankly it will have to reverse effect on me and very likely of like mind as me. Way I see it you can't "force" people to be your friends and play with you.

Von3 is a nice XP quest for farming off destinies, even casuals can run it once or twice a day or once every couple days for some decent XP. Changing this is just lame, in another thread about valcomms I said the agreed that the valcom drop-rate needed to be increased but didn't mind the 6mill XP karma requirement for ETR but this here will change my mind about the last bit.

Increase the xp of other quests to "encourage" poeple to run it more but leave von3 alone.

xTethx
01-08-2014, 05:44 PM
Turbine,

How about instead of dropping the exp on some quests, you raise the exp on a LOT of others to make them more attractive to run. This tiny list of increases, while good, only scratches the surface. Jungle of Khyber isn't run so much simply because it's worth a giant pile of exp, but also because it's a fairly straightforward quest. There's no annoying hoops to jump through, no puzzles, no back and forth running. Just a more or less straight line to the end with a boss fight. It's just a simple standalone quest, worth good exp, that's right next to the Airship.

Look at the other options for level 9 quests: Threnal? Don't make me laugh! Annoying escort missions, failure states, out of the way in an explorer area, and worth relatively poor exp. The same goes for Redfens: Quests in an explorer area with gimmicks: The underwater mechanics of Into the Deep and Fathom the Depths are poor. The Last Stand has a failure state and is basically standing around waiting for enemies to arrive. The Claw of Vulkoor can be zerged with invis(kinda), but it's still more of a gimmick than the straight zerg run of Jungle of Khyber, and is worth less exp.

The only other quest at level 9 that competes with Jungle is the Shadow Crypt, but even THAT has to done using a workaround to repeat it, and most people require a wiki guide to complete in reasonable time.

The problem is far more complex than simply how much time it takes to complete a quest. Even the time it takes to complete is more complex when you take into account the travel to actually reach the quest entrance.

Turbine, you need to take a step back and really try to understand why people run the quests they do. It's NOT simply a matter of how much exp a quest is worth. Fiddling around with exp values needs to be done in a more comprehensive manner, with much better understanding of how and why players run each quest(or don't run it, in some cases).

Plz reread op. It says epic only. Which is completely fine.

Ghoulstorm
01-08-2014, 05:44 PM
• The Druid's Curse (Epic only)
• Thorn and Paw (Epic only)
• Outbreak (Epic only)


These quests absolutely need a good sized bump on heroic as well. As it is, they are one and done for favor and then maybe a Casual breeze through if you happen to need comms. It is some of the most abysmally craptastic xp offered in the game and even on full elite streak seems more like a slap in the face than something worth doing. I have no idea why Overgrowth was left off. It is every bit as bad in both Heroic and Epic. Maybe they'll get enough of a bump to be ran in Epic, but as for Heroic, I'll hit them on Elite for the favor when I'm lvl 25 or so and not miss out on many xps.

As for VoN 3, I'm not going to complain about something that probably should've been changed a long time ago. Even if I don't like it. Thanks for the forewarning. I'm off to massacre some Luridae.

AtomicMew
01-08-2014, 05:44 PM
I think you should strongly, strongly reconsider the von 3 nerf. It provides a focal point for people to quickly enjoy a pug (even if it's faster to just solo, it's not as fun IMO). Without von 3, there is no focal point and pugs will noticeably decrease and take a lot longer to fill. I am not waiting around 5 minutes to get someone to join a group for other XP farming quests that only take 3 minutes.

Please reconsider.

maddmatt70
01-08-2014, 05:47 PM
Thanks devs on the xp bumps. The only one I question is House of Death Undone. That one hopefully did not get a big bump as it already gave great xp per minute. I would like to ask/inquire/plead if you devs have examined epic elite vs. epic hard vs. epic normal xp. Epic elite should give more experience in comparison to the other difficulties then it currently does in my opinion. Can you upgrade epic elite experience by 20% or something of that nature?

Silverleafeon
01-08-2014, 05:47 PM
+1 for increasing XP
+1 for communication! keep it coming!

+1

Trillea
01-08-2014, 05:54 PM
We’re also planning to reduce the XP for one quest (on Epic only):

• Jungle of Khyber (Epic only)




This particular new thing - it is bad.

Knockback
01-08-2014, 05:56 PM
The only one I question is House of Death Undone. That one hopefully did not get a big bump as it already gave great xp per minute.

I should mention that we're thinking about a content change to House of Death Undone (where/how you get the key) that would affect its XP/minute. That will not make it into Update 21, though.

Atremus
01-08-2014, 05:58 PM
Please consider a boost to epic Party Crashers and Red Fens to give players more options in the early epic level range.

Tuffgar
01-08-2014, 06:01 PM
Plz reread op. It says epic only. Which is completely fine.

I think you misunderstood the point of my post. It was not so much targeted at Jungle of Khyber exp changes, but at the reasoning behind why Turbine fiddles with the exp of quests. Jungle is only one example of a much larger issue.

Ghoulstorm
01-08-2014, 06:04 PM
A Cabal For One has horrendously low XP on repeats. Something like 15-16K for an EH run.

Heroic isn't any better. Went to do it on HH for first time bonus yesterday after doing elite the previous day. I checked XP after walking in the door and just turned around and walked back out.

fangblackhawk
01-08-2014, 06:04 PM
i agree with the people saying you should look at the xp of different dificultys. Epic Hard lords of dust the average mobs cr is just over 30, on EE the avrage mobs cr is just under 50 for a grand total of 300 xp more. aka a free daily die roll. also on this same note why are many heroic elites (cough wheloon) way harder than Epic normal version of the same quest! i realize elite is elite but epics by name should be harder than any heroic difficulty. AND i really hope VON 3 gets hit with a nerf bat not a hydrogen nerf bomb factory... though i totally agree it is almost to easy for the xp. i def remeber running what goes up the first time and after alot of swearing wondering what the xp was recalling and going back to giant hold and farming tor.....

xTethx
01-08-2014, 06:05 PM
I think you misunderstood the point of my post. It was not so much targeted at Jungle of Khyber exp changes, but at the reasoning behind why Turbine fiddles with the exp of quests. Jungle is only one example of a much larger issue.

Ahh well your post sounded like you referring directly to heroic von 3 and relating it to other similar leveled quests and their xp. My mistake then.

Zavier
01-08-2014, 06:06 PM
Pretty much in agreement with this, these quests suck and I really don't want to run them.




I think those of us that dislike these quest will not like them any better because they get a xp increase, I sure as **** wont be putting up a lfm for them even with these changes. As for the price of the pack shadowfail deserves its name and even 15$ is too much for it.

What really annoys me is the people that moan and groan on the forums think getting stuff nerfed will "force" people to play with them in their "preferred sandbox" and quite frankly it will have to reverse effect on me and very likely of like mind as me. Way I see it you can't "force" people to be your friends and play with you.

Von3 is a nice XP quest for farming off destinies, even casuals can run it once or twice a day or once every couple days for some decent XP. Changing this is just lame, in another thread about valcomms I said the agreed that the valcom drop-rate needed to be increased but didn't mind the 6mill XP karma requirement for ETR but this here will change my mind about the last bit.

Increase the xp of other quests to "encourage" poeple to run it more but leave von3 alone.

I concur.

I really have no desire to spend anytime in FR. Shadowfail, Wheloon prison, The King's Forest, The Stormhorns, those abominable druid quests, all of those quests, packs are LAME. I would rather run VON 3 ad nauseam from 20-28 than run any of those quests. Bumping the xp significantly will not get me to run them...ever.

ranthrock
01-08-2014, 06:09 PM
So, here's what I'd like the devs to do:

1) Add up all the xp someone would get from running all the epic quests on EN and EH and taking xp as saga rewards:

2) Adjust epic xp and make it so that that number = 6,600,000.

3) Never let xp in an epic quest get below 30kish for a second run.

PNellesen
01-08-2014, 06:12 PM
Please consider a boost to epic Party Crashers and Red Fens to give players more options in the early epic level range.

Agreed. In addition to an XP boost, Epic Fens sorely needs a gear boost as well (though that's another topic entirely).

I don't particularly agree with the hit to Von3 XP (depending on how BIG a hit it takes) though it's definitely not surprising. Please take into account how long a quest might take a group of first-life characters doing it at-level, and not just how long it takes a group of multi-TR'd level 28s...

Battery
01-08-2014, 06:16 PM
hate the nerf to von3 but I expected it

WGU gets the biggest upgrade and I can't run it, unless you give the option of turning off the migraine effect.

maddmatt70
01-08-2014, 06:19 PM
I should mention that we're thinking about a content change to House of Death Undone (where/how you get the key) that would affect its XP/minute. That will not make it into Update 21, though.

Hmm. I know a lot of people who either have a lockpicker or they have a chime which opens the door and that is super. If you decide to skp the door which can be picked or chimed and zerge through the kitchen without fighting you can also complete this very fast although the alert level does go up some, but it is super fast that way as well you just kill the two cats and the 4 guards in the side area before starting the end fight which reduces the alert level.

murf201
01-08-2014, 06:28 PM
Hey Knockback , Not trying to derail you here . But i hope some of you guys will talk to us soon about some of the new content and maybe a ruff estimate on when lamania preview server will be making its comeback ! Other then that thanks for the information regarding xp changes and i appreciate your time !!

PS. If there not already thinking about it , Push the issue of the capstones and some cores needing upgrades at your next meeting ! Allot of us would really appreciate some feedback on that as well .

RapkintheRanger
01-08-2014, 06:33 PM
Have u considered the wilderness areas?

I enjoy them but the diminishing returns for slaying and the number of required kills for the last few stages make it daunting. The early kills are both worth more and becasue rares are spawning and new locations show up the first few hours in a wilderness is pretty good. Then, you have the locations so that exp source disappears, you have most of the rares so that source of exp takes a 67% penalty and you are looking at a long uphill climb....


Something which either increased the exp towards the end or even just broke the last steps into doable chunks would help make slaying and wilderness areas last longer as playable experiences.

The Kings forest From DDO wiki for example:

Slay 10 creatures in The King's Forest: 2,655 XP = 265.5 xp/kill
Slay 25 creatures in The King's Forest: 3,576 XP = 238.4 xp/kill
Slay 50 creatures in The King's Forest: 4,815 XP = 192.6 xp/kill
Slay 100 creatures in The King's Forest: 7,020 XP = 140.4 xp/kill
Slay 200 creatures in The King's Forest: 11,025 XP = 110.25 xp/kill
Slay 400 creatures in The King's Forest: 18,855 XP = 94.27 xp/kill
Slay 750 creatures in The King's Forest: 31,185 XP = 89.1 xp/kill
Slay 1,500 creatures in The King's Forest: 63,990 XP = 85.32 xp/kill
Slay 3,000 creatures in The King's Forest: 128,745 XP = 85.83 xp/kill
Slay 5,000 creatures in The King's Forest: 178,500 XP = 89.25 xp/kill
Slay 7,500 creatures in the King's Forest: 233,505 XP = 93.40 xp/kill

Buffyanne
01-08-2014, 06:41 PM
Hello everyone! We're planning another round of quest XP adjustments for Update 21, and we'd like to get your thoughts.

We've been listening to your feedback, so this time around we're looking specifically at epic quests. The exact details are still somewhat fluid, but I can definitely say we've increased the experience for 17 quests. Those quests are:

• Chains of Flame (Epic only)
• Trial By Fury (Epic only)
• The Druid's Curse (Epic only)
• Thorn and Paw (Epic only)
• Outbreak (Epic only)
• In The Belly of the Beast (Epic only)
• The House of Death Undone (Epic only)
• The Tracker's Trap (both Epic and Heroic)
• What Goes Up (both Epic and Heroic)
• Breaking the Ranks (both Epic and Heroic)
• A Break in the Ice (both Epic and Heroic)
• Lines of Supply (both Epic and Heroic)
• Army of Shadow (both Epic and Heroic)
• Through a Mirror Darkly (both Epic and Heroic)
• The Thrill of the Hunt (both Epic and Heroic)
• Friends in Low Places (both Epic and Heroic)
• A Lesson in Deception (both Epic and Heroic)

We’re also planning to reduce the XP for one quest (on Epic only):

• Jungle of Khyber (Epic only)

Knockback
Senior Content Designer

In almost every case the quests you are giving an increase in the xp to are difficult to get to. Thus, while this may be nice when they are run one time thru it really doesn't help players working on XP for destinies. If VON3 MUST be nerfed fine, but replace it with something else that is easy to get to. I don't understand why it has to be nerfed anyway - to all the oh I hate running it till my eyes bleed posts, then don't run it! No one forces you to. This seems like another another knee jerk recation to some loud whiney forum posts about Von3. There is nothing wrong with getting 100k plus in a quest when you are dragging the level cap up to what, 8 million experience needed to epic TR this year? 9 million experience? Even if you spread out the XP curve, VON3 is vital in allowing you to get thru the first epic levels quickly so you can actually put on your epic gear. Please remember, you cannot EVEN RUN EPIC STORMHORNS UNTIL YOU ARE LEVEL 24. Why make things more difficult for those going thru the early levels of epics without giving them a viable alternative?

Nothing is more unpopular than nerfing XP. You would think that the death of challenge running in the game following the massive XP nerfs would have been a lesson in this.

Thar
01-08-2014, 06:41 PM
Von 3 - this wouldn't be run so much by overlevel toons (hence increasing the speed of completion) if the amount of xp needed for epic tr wasn't insanely high and there were other decent options to gain xp. Also all of the quests you mention need a rather full group and balanced group to complete or are stupid long to run or both.

Vellrad
01-08-2014, 06:45 PM
Thanks to that guy that whined about von3 XP :/


IMO, you should increase druids derp chain XP in both heroic and epic.

Grizzt14
01-08-2014, 06:48 PM
Overall, I like the rebalance of quest experience, even with a decrease to VoN3 (Which like it or not, was needed.). I particularly like the focus on Stormhorns and Wheloon, which while being the newest content to DDO, I think is largely avoided for xp due to the accessibility and/or xp per quest of the VoN chain and Epic Gianthold.

All around, well done. Looking forward to more news about U21!

Teh_Troll
01-08-2014, 06:49 PM
The Shadowfail content should have the XP doubled, at least.

nibel
01-08-2014, 06:49 PM
Jungle of Khyber isn't run so much simply because it's worth a giant pile of exp, but also because it's a fairly straightforward quest. There's no annoying hoops to jump through, no puzzles, no back and forth running. Just a more or less straight line to the end with a boss fight. It's just a simple standalone quest, worth good exp, that's right next to the Airship.

The airship port is the ONLY thing that makes it different from your average FR quest. Tracker's Trap, Break in the Ice, WGU, Detour, Lost in the Swamp, End of the Road, Disciples of Shar, Escape Plan, Shadow of a Doubt, Friends in Low Places, A Lesson in Deception, and The Thrill of the Hunt are basically a straight line, with maybe some optionals in a side way, no puzzles, and no back and forth running.

Out of FR, we also have TTT, Snitch, Big Top, Phatom the Depths, Claw of Vulkoor, VoN 1, VoN 4, OoB, Lords of Dust, Servants of the Overlord, and Beyond the Rift. All simple and straight and without puzzles.

The main reason people run Von 3 so much is the XP. Plain and simple. It is a simple and fun quest, but is hardly the only epic one with those characteristics.

rayworks
01-08-2014, 06:53 PM
No to nerfing VON3. Why is it you - the Devs - always pull out the nerf bat instead of just buffing the others? People whined about sorcs being OP, so you nerfed them a bit. But you didn't buff Pallies or Bards.

In other words, don't "fix" what isn't broken. Fix what is broken.

rest
01-08-2014, 06:54 PM
I should mention that we're thinking about a content change to House of Death Undone (where/how you get the key) that would affect its XP/minute. That will not make it into Update 21, though.

There's a key in Death Undone?


Huh.

Jasparion
01-08-2014, 07:01 PM
No to nerfing VON3. Why is it you - the Devs - always pull out the nerf bat instead of just buffing the others? People whined about sorcs being OP, so you nerfed them a bit. But you didn't buff Pallies or Bards.

In other words, don't "fix" what isn't broken. Fix what is broken.

To date they have buffed about 30 dungeons, and nerfed 1.

And how can you say VON3 isnt broken? Please explain in great detail, because I cant wait.

At least be honest and say "dont nerf it because I love chain farming it for super fast levelling". Then they can add your feedback and decide whether it really is appropriate for some dungeons to provide massively more XP than other dungeons on a per minute rating.

voodoogroves
01-08-2014, 07:15 PM
Just going to put this out there.

With COMMS where they are, XP isn't what you should focus on at all. The VON XP is nice - but at this point a red herring. You guys are about 3 moves back from where the board is now.

I wouldn't bother with too much XP increasing or decreasing until you straighten out comms. Of course, maybe you guys are working on it and just not communicating that - but it looks like another left-hand/right-hand miss the mark things ... similar to your loot pass a while back.

Havok.cry
01-08-2014, 07:17 PM
My feedback:
Increased XP for the druid's curse quests will not make up for the mind numbing boredom of the quests themselves unless it is a very very large increase.

Increased XP will not make up for the real life health hazards of running any quest with the shadow fell's purple haze, no matter how large that increase is. Your quests here are causing real actual pain to people, not figurative eye bleeding but actual real pain. Why is turbine okay with this?

Cyr
01-08-2014, 07:17 PM
We also wanted to give people time to get familiar with the Shadowfell Conspiracy quests before we started changing their XP values.


Okay sorry, but that is backwards. Pretty much every person commenting upon shadofail quests noted the horrible xp/min. You guys should have put out reasonable numbers to start with. There is no reasonable reason to wait to make adjustments to new content when players have clearly made their opinions heard in every step of the process already.

Cyr
01-08-2014, 07:18 PM
Just going to put this out there.

With COMMS where they are, XP isn't what you should focus on at all. The VON XP is nice - but at this point a red herring. You guys are about 3 moves back from where the board is now.

I wouldn't bother with too much XP increasing or decreasing until you straighten out comms. Of course, maybe you guys are working on it and just not communicating that - but it looks like another left-hand/right-hand miss the mark things ... similar to your loot pass a while back.

Agreed.

Comms are a mess.

Kasiddy
01-08-2014, 07:20 PM
<snip>
For other quests we're evaluating what the right fix is. Should we adjust the base XP? Change the optional XP? Alter the contents of the quest itself? Or some combination of the three? Given the sheer number of unique quests in DDO, it will be a while before can we give every one the full attention it deserves.
<snip>
Knockback
Senior Content Designer

In general, alter optional XP and give XP during the quest for completing significant objectives. Adjust base XP down if this would bloat the total XP for a completion.

Examples most people should be familiar with:
Give XP after each wave of attacks in The Last Stand in the Fens.
Give XP after defeating each apprentice necromancer in Black Loch in Sentinels Chain.
Significant XP for each mini-boss in Offering of Blood in sands (OK to adjust base XP down with a change like this).
Ditto Detour.
Big XP bump for high striker games in Big Top, with more random and creative encounter results after "winning."

Part of the reason quests like Von 3, Deleras 2, Gwylans, Redwillow, and (I would add for myself personally) Desert Caravan is not just the base XP but the rewards you get along the way for optionals. Even if you don't complete for some reason you still have some modest XP reward. I've added Desert Caravan as it is the only timed or protect-type quest that comes to mind where you gain XP for staying in the quest and protecting. Every two minutes, I think, plus orange-named that pop along the way. If a certain quest in Threnal was made more like this I suspect it would generate slightly less forum rage. Or maybe not.

Trillea
01-08-2014, 07:21 PM
To date they have buffed about 30 dungeons, and nerfed 1.

And how can you say VON3 isnt broken? Please explain in great detail, because I cant wait.

At least be honest and say "dont nerf it because I love chain farming it for super fast levelling". Then they can add your feedback and decide whether it really is appropriate for some dungeons to provide massively more XP than other dungeons on a per minute rating.

VON 3 is *not* broken. Every other quest in the game is. Bring the XP/min up to the levels of VoN 3, triple comm output (or cut the number needed to 1400-ish) and make ETR the new revolving-door that heroic TR used to be.

Sebastrd
01-08-2014, 07:21 PM
I, too, am more interested in seeing optionals get a boost. Optional XP should be based on time of completion relative to the main quest objectives and difficulty.

For example, in House of Death Undone most of the optionals are only worth 5% of the base XP even though some of them can more than double the time it takes to complete the quest. How does that make any sense? In House of Broken Chains the optional to preserve the slaves during the end fight may not take long, but it's so difficult that 5% bonus XP isn't remotely worth the effort.

Huascarino
01-08-2014, 07:22 PM
Hold for Reinforcements needs the base XP increased by about 1000%!!! maybe 10.000%. And a easy solution for Von 3? Make the 2 final fights (3 named and final fight) as hard as on elite on normal. And scale it up on different difficulty.

If your way of thinking is this, the Pit should give 300.000 xp, but for the few of us that knows it, this will be so overpowered...

rayworks
01-08-2014, 07:23 PM
And how can you say VON3 isnt broken? Please explain in great detail, because I cant wait.



VON3 works. No bugs, no issues with spawns not appearing when they should. It works. If the devs "fix" VON3 its more likely they'll screw it up. Fix what is broken first.

Rhysem
01-08-2014, 07:24 PM
VON 3 is *not* broken. Every other quest in the game is. Bring the XP/min up to the levels of VoN 3, triple comm output (or cut the number needed to 1400-ish) and make ETR the new revolving-door that heroic TR used to be.

This.

With the daily repetition penalty, I don't see a problem with von3 being high. So what? Casuals who have family/life/whatever obligations can keep up? Oh noes! Gotta keep the rabble down.

Also this is 100% worthless without knowing what the adjustments were.

PsychoBlonde
01-08-2014, 07:25 PM
Yep, Wheloon and Storm Horns have some of the most godawful XP values in the game, even with first-time bonuses and all that jazz. I'd like to see the optional XP increased in Trial By Fury, personally, I like to *do* that quest instead of skipping 95% by hopping past barriers, but most people don't even want to THINK about doing it that way. It's actually a pretty neat quest and it doesn't take all that long, it's just that the "get X stones" optional XP is SO low that there's precious little incentive to bother.

When you're tweaking quest xp, please consider not just how long it takes to do the quest but how long it takes to get TO the quest--and don't assume that everyone is going to have the teleporter to get out there quickly. The Demonweb, Wheloon, and Storm Horns quests, along with Unquiet Graves, The Lost Thread, Chains of Flame and Against the Demon Queen are all a LONG run through an outdoor area that eats time on your XP pots and ship buffs and whatever else you might have going on. That, and a LARGE percentage of people who join LFMs have NO IDEA where these quests are, meaning you either leave them to fend for themselves because they've never heard of Google or you take even longer handholding them.

This is also an important thing to consider for the forthcoming Epic Three-Barrel Cove because some of the quests (Scoundrel's Run and Ghost of a Chance specifically) are WAY WAY WAY OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE and, at present, there are NO teleporters out there, either.

Huascarino
01-08-2014, 07:30 PM
Comms are a mess. agreed.

murf201
01-08-2014, 07:34 PM
Im assuming they feel as the newer quests and raids come out , There will be quests with 80 comms on end rewards on EE and so on !!

Plus with more levels you will be needing to wait longer and run more content to reach 4200 comms .

They have a window frame in there planning for you to earn comms and its playing all the epic quests till you cap , When the new quests and raids come out this year and even further you will be alot more close when running all this content to reaching 4200 comms

Now i really don't care about the number right now , Just as long as that number don't change when there's an abundance of new content spilling 100 comms a popp on EE

PsychoBlonde
01-08-2014, 07:35 PM
To date they have buffed about 30 dungeons, and nerfed 1.

And how can you say VON3 isnt broken? Please explain in great detail, because I cant wait.

At least be honest and say "dont nerf it because I love chain farming it for super fast levelling". Then they can add your feedback and decide whether it really is appropriate for some dungeons to provide massively more XP than other dungeons on a per minute rating.

Von3 nerf doesn't matter, people will just go farm the first 4 optionals in Crucible more.

I generally do a couple of Von3 runs daily to "warm up", pretty much, but they're hardly necessary for leveling and the comm return is poo. I'd probably just run slightly more sagas.

Trillea
01-08-2014, 07:36 PM
Psycho, please remove the 1st sentence in your post - fight club and all that.

voodoogroves
01-08-2014, 07:39 PM
Agreed.

Comms are a mess.

In the loot pass when they lots of the Sands loot except for the Spectral Gloves because people use them, but then putting dex 6, attack and ghost touch (ghostbane!) all over the place so that the Spectrals are now sub-optimal ... they aren't watching the board and the overall game, just one move. Left hand, meet right hand.

I may run VON3, but I'll instead be spreading out for the daily bonus + comms if I want XP. In theory, comms will be a more useful currency so you'll eventually always want more - even once you XP cap.

Vellrad
01-08-2014, 07:41 PM
Just going to put this out there.

With COMMS where they are, XP isn't what you should focus on at all. The VON XP is nice - but at this point a red herring. You guys are about 3 moves back from where the board is now.

I wouldn't bother with too much XP increasing or decreasing until you straighten out comms. Of course, maybe you guys are working on it and just not communicating that - but it looks like another left-hand/right-hand miss the mark things ... similar to your loot pass a while back.

I'll say that I prefer farming XP to get to lvl25 ASAP, even with repeating von3 few times per day, so I can equip decent gear and acces all quests, than to run everything once.
I also prefer zerg to 28, and run quests for comms while my character is as strong as possible, instead of taking low level gimp through all quests (without acces to half of them).
So I like XP buffs, and don't like von3 XP nerf.

murf201
01-08-2014, 07:43 PM
Like i just stated if they make 20 new quests this year " highly unlikely " And ten old quests upgraded to Epic .

Were looking at roughly 2000 comms or better off EE one and done runs on this content alone !!!

And whos to say what type of new comm incentives they will make .

Im not in agreement with whats currently in place . But things usually don't look correct until there finished !!

The thing that would benefit them is if they came out with there plans and how they expect things to work down the line !!

PS. Another thing would of been to lower the number since the system doesn't have a strong support of content to provide comms , But maybe they feel that it would be wrong to make it easier on the people who been around here a while , Like allowing us to do our etr's way quicker and cheaper then the guy who starts playing a year from now !!

" You should of been here a year ago man " " I was able to bang out all my ETR's in a few months cause you only needed half at the time !! "

Hafeal
01-08-2014, 07:46 PM
Knockback -

I appreciate the information and feedback.

1) I would first echo the other thoughts here in asking: What is your thought process in evaluating xp changes? Do you include things like travel time to the quest? Originally, I believe you stated xp was calculated purely by algorithm. I think I sense from the changes that more factors are being included in xp changes - I guess I am wondering what the criteria is and their rank of importance.

Shadowfell, for example, which I am running now for the first time, is quite difficult to travel to [edit: having to go through multiple instances], with a tough explorer area. This is especially true I would guess for a 1st lifer with little gear. These quests have some decent gear but the xp was definitely underwhelming. Let me add that the chains and haze really make this area one that is less appealing so far. My static group's very first encounter with chains was a laughable wipe in less than 10 secs as we didn't not recognize the effect at first. Yes, we quickly adapted and learned to scamper like rabbits, but if you want players to run content with average loot, bad game effects that cannot be avoided, prevented or protected (other than by running away), then the xp has to be overwhelming.

2) Von 3 is 2 seconds off a guild ship, with chests at each optional. Besides xp, as a loot run, it is good. And it is easy to fill. Has the crew not learned from previous changes (*cough* "Shroud Blades" *cough*) that taking away the kids' toys is just another way to tell players not to play? Simply raising other quests xp - especially, importantly, substantially - will "decrease" the xp of Von 3.

3) While I am at it - a "substantial" xp change means 30%+ to BASE xp in my book. Not 10% or 20%. A 10% change to a 30K epic quest is 3K. Blah. Now - 9K for 30%? Now you pique my interest. 40%+ - now I may actually start to fill that lfm.

4) I am hopeful that Heroic quests will still see some changes as well. I was running Restless Isles last week for the first time in a long while and I remember why I am slow to go back - the xp is a joke for the trek and time. And the mini bosses should all have chests with loot - not just keys.

Overall, what I, and I think other players here, are getting at is that a "wholistic, hand-in-hnad" approach to quests regarding their loot and xp is the approach we are looking at as players. It is more than the rare item or base xp - it is also the difficulty of the quest, the time to complete it and the resources to do so. No algorithm will do that well in this game and how it is played by the players.

While I do not expect devs to play the game as religiously as the player base - as few people want to work their jobs for fun too - I at least expect and hope for a more comprehensive understanding "behind the numbers" of why quests get done the way they do.

I know I wrote a lot, and I again appreciate you taking the time to read and 'listen.'

Ivan_Milic
01-08-2014, 07:51 PM
Why not buff everyone quest xp when run on ee, there is like 2-3k difference between eh and ee.
We all know how much harder ee is.
Ee should give at least 50% more base xp than eh.

tinnertaz
01-08-2014, 07:54 PM
For some quests we're just waiting for the right time to make the changes. For example, we'll be adjusting the Heroic XP in Three Barrel Cove when we add Epic mode to that area.

rayworks
01-08-2014, 07:55 PM
Comms seem like a mess right now , Cause we don't know whats down the road !!

Based on past history, I suspect Turbine doesn't know either.

Jasparion
01-08-2014, 07:55 PM
Im assuming they feel as the newer quests and raids come out , There will be quests with 80 comms on end rewards on EE and so on !!

Plus with more levels you will be needing to wait longer and run more content to reach 4200 comms .

So make it 3,000 now, and raise it to 4,200 when the level 30 content comes out.

Qhualor
01-08-2014, 08:12 PM
For some quests we're just waiting for the right time to make the changes. For example, we'll be adjusting the Heroic XP in Three Barrel Cove when we add Epic mode to that area

the xp bump up would be nice. maybe it will encourage more players to run out there and do those quests. im sure you guys are aware why some players skip 3BC altogether, but i don't know if bumping the xp up will be enough reason for players to go "off the beaten path" to run those quests for xp. there are quests outside the ship portal that offer really good xp and really good xp/min in 3BC level range instead of having to step off the ship in K or Harbor and run out to the quests in a wilderness zone. in 3BC level range, there are enough quests with minimal farming at worse that make it so you don't need to run 3BC for xp. it can be skipped completely.

i think the better idea is to make 3BC level 15 quests and make adjustments accordingly instead of keeping it at the levels they are and improving the xp. at level 15, i think people would be more inclined to run out there and play those quests, especially since you need a key or by the time you flag to get to Eveningstar you will be level 17/18 at least before running those quests. on Eberron side, there is still only a handful of quests for level 15 and 3BC would be a good fit.

Kaytis
01-08-2014, 08:42 PM
Comms are the problem not xp.

From personal experience, I run VON III twice every day because I can fill in destinies and thus accomplish something.

I don't farm comms because the bar has been set so ludicrously high, that I don't feel like I ever make any progress. Even during double comm month, I preferred to run XP.

Nerfing VON III will not stop people running it. I suspect the convenience of the quest will continue to make it the number one draw. The only way you are going to change behavior is to triple the comm drops in all the other quests. There are lots of us who have simply given up on eTR. Try lowering that barrier if you want people to start doing something else.

Alternatively, you could put a guild ship portal near the PDK favor guy. But that would be too sensible -why let people get to the content you want them to play? Better to keep them away I think.

Aloka
01-08-2014, 08:55 PM
That's nice and all, but the heroic versions of those quests (where applicable) need a huge bump also. Really any quest added with MoTU or later needs a large xp bump on heroic.

And comms need to be adjusted as well, especially since the party line is that it based off xp values people were actually getting from quests.

oradafu
01-08-2014, 09:12 PM
The airship port is the ONLY thing that makes it different from your average FR quest. Tracker's Trap, Break in the Ice, WGU, Detour, Lost in the Swamp, End of the Road, Disciples of Shar, Escape Plan, Shadow of a Doubt, Friends in Low Places, A Lesson in Deception, and The Thrill of the Hunt are basically a straight line, with maybe some optionals in a side way, no puzzles, and no back and forth running.

Out of FR, we also have TTT, Snitch, Big Top, Phatom the Depths, Claw of Vulkoor, VoN 1, VoN 4, OoB, Lords of Dust, Servants of the Overlord, and Beyond the Rift. All simple and straight and without puzzles.

The main reason people run Von 3 so much is the XP. Plain and simple. It is a simple and fun quest, but is hardly the only epic one with those characteristics.

I think you, along with the Devs, are missing one of the major factors that makes Von3 so popular over all the quests that you listed. Von3 has great XP and more importantly it also contains great optional XP throughout the quest, instead of only once or twice.

The Devs have skimped, and ignored players suggests for years, on including more optional XP in quests that includes mandatory mini-bosses and mobs. Instead, the Devs only include a handful of optional XP that many times are off the beaten path on the main goal of the quest. Von3 contains 6 guaranteed optionals directly in the path the main boss, plus 3 additional rare bosses that can pop up. The closest quest in your list that competes with this type of optional XP is Detour, but it has a very poor base XP and a lousy 2.5% optional XP, so the mini-bosses give a very anemic amount of XP.

We should be getting quests with great optional XP that can be found in Von3, Wiz-King, Caverns of Korromar, The Tear of Dhakaan, Redwillow's Ruins, Deleras: Missing Party, Stormcleave Outpost, Desert Caravan, Dreams of Insanity etc. All of those give players either alot of XP for doing the optionals (Wiz-King, Dreams of Insanity) or a decent amount of XP multiple times throughout the quest (all the other quests).

Additionally, all timed quests should be converted to give timed optional XP like Desert Caravan so there is an incentive to run these quests that lack base XP because of the horribly designed XP formula that prevents 15 minute quests from giving decent XP. Similarly, the quests that consists of wave after wave of attacks (such as Escape Plan) should give optional XP for each wave of attack, similar to Devil Assault.

====
I'd like to add one more thing and it is exactly what I said when Shadowfail "expansion" was in Beta: The Heroic quests in Shadowfail should give at least the same amount of XP found in the Vale, if not more XP. I repeated this statement over and over and it was ignored. It's not surprising that the request for XP to be increased was ignored back then, because increasing XP on Lamannia is ALWAYS ignored. It was surprising that the XP for a lackluster "expansion" was so bad from the get-go without even comparing it to other quests in the same level range.

Edwinge
01-08-2014, 09:23 PM
I love that you all are continuing to adjust XP numbers. One thing that I wish you would do, in addition to tweaking base XP, is look at the requirements for getting bonus XP. In may quests it is impossible to get ransack/conquest/etc. because there are not enough mobs/breakables/etc. in the quest. I feel that the first step in making XP adjustments should be to look at the bonus XP requirements. If There are only 100 mobs in a quest, aggression's threshold is set at 90, onslaught's at 105, and conquest's at 120, well, it needs adjusting. Reward people more for being thorough!

Silverleafeon
01-08-2014, 09:27 PM
Don't you think you should change [insert quest here]?

If you have ideas for which specific quests should be adjusted (or not adjusted) and why, this thread is the perfect place to talk about it. Please use this thread to discuss!

Knockback
Senior Content Designer

Some Raids more xp?

Thar
01-08-2014, 09:33 PM
For some quests we're just waiting for the right time to make the changes. For example, we'll be adjusting the Heroic XP in Three Barrel Cove when we add Epic mode to that area.



please give up the three barrell cove epic idea... those quests stink... if you look at how often people run then compared to other quests you will see it is a failed zone.

epic tempest spine...

Qhualor
01-08-2014, 09:34 PM
I love that you all are continuing to adjust XP numbers. One thing that I wish you would do, in addition to tweaking base XP, is look at the requirements for getting bonus XP. In may quests it is impossible to get ransack/conquest/etc. because there are not enough mobs/breakables/etc. in the quest. I feel that the first step in making XP adjustments should be to look at the bonus XP requirements. If There are only 100 mobs in a quest, aggression's threshold is set at 90, onslaught's at 105, and conquest's at 120, well, it needs adjusting. Reward people more for being thorough!

this

its annoying trying to remember which quests you cant get ransack, conquest, ingenious and vigilant and its a waste of time.

Thar
01-08-2014, 09:34 PM
I love that you all are continuing to adjust XP numbers. One thing that I wish you would do, in addition to tweaking base XP, is look at the requirements for getting bonus XP. In may quests it is impossible to get ransack/conquest/etc. because there are not enough mobs/breakables/etc. in the quest. I feel that the first step in making XP adjustments should be to look at the bonus XP requirements. If There are only 100 mobs in a quest, aggression's threshold is set at 90, onslaught's at 105, and conquest's at 120, well, it needs adjusting. Reward people more for being thorough!

isn't there a beholder in one of the titan raid prereq's that is missing for an optional?

gelgoog
01-08-2014, 09:41 PM
Nice to hear that xp boosts will be going to the posted quests. but, Von 3...........well,

Now the day I first read about DDO back when it was in beta made me quite interested in it. What I read about and promptly played when it was live was the ease of quest giver to quest entrance. When DDO came out many other mmos had you do the 'fedex' missions but you had to traverse a good distance from quest giver and to quest entrance. I dislike those types of mechanics in any game. Add to it that you may have other players who do not know how to get at said locations and it gets a bit dull and babysitter like.

Like everyone else we have limited time to log in and play. So eliminating the run to quests is a good thing overall.

With that said the reason I enjoy the xp for Von 3 is as others have said, it is easy to get to and fun to run with great xp for off destiny xp. Now if you had more quests that you had the quest entrance in the public instance instead of the wilderness areas that would be a step in the right direction.

Another step in the right direction is to make ship buffs last till you log out or die. Reason is that it is another time waster. Understandably though since as it stands now it creates flow and traffic in public areas via the guild airships ports. Or you could even have a guild trinket you can use twice an hour that lets you warp to your ship and back for buffs.

I am rambling now, but I suppose what I am trying to say is that more xp for quests is a good thing, less time to run to the quests is a better thing.

-side note off topic but, will ddo support the new xbox one controller when it is released for the pc? I use the 360 controller since I started playing DDO and love it. Just wondering about the support for the xbox one controller-

blackdae
01-08-2014, 09:42 PM
VoN 3 was a great place for running in off destiny because that is NO fun. And I won't do it in normal quests.

I don't like the whole ETR thing and this just convinced me that I should not do it because it looks like no fun to me.

This ^

Rasputin
01-08-2014, 09:48 PM
I am sure that you, the devs, have access to data which shows how often each quest is being run by the playerbase. Offer experience bounties to those quests that are being run less. Scale the exp bonus up until they are being run close to the average.

For example: you have a quest that is long and tedious with an uninspiring amount of exp being offered for completion. Nobody runs that quest any more, because there are potentially more fun and rewarding quests out there. Stick a bounty on that quest (and advertise it!) of, say, 50% exp (base and optionals). Check it over the next day or two, maybe a week, and see what the numbers say. If it doesn't bring the player population running to do that quest, raise it 5% each couple of days. Keep doing so until the players are running it on average as often as the more popular quests. If the numbers rise too high, drop it back down some until they normalize. Do this for every quest that players normally avoid.

DDO is a game with lots of static content but virtually zero dynamic content. Lowering the exp reward for one of the most popular quests in the game is not going to increase players' enjoyment, nor will it drive them to play quests that they have already decided they don't want to play any more. They will just play something else; some other game that offers things that they haven't done before.

I'd like to see the game begin to offer more dynamic content in addition to the normal game model. Offer players the ability to play as NPCs or monsters in existing quests. It would work like this:

I take my character into, say, The Waterworks. My party is delving deep into the kobold-infested sewers, looking for missing guards. Unbeknownst to us, another player has stepped into the quest with the intent of foiling our plans. That player gets to take on the persona of a new red-named boss kobold with level-appropriate abilities. He is patched in to our chat channel (oooh, maybe even with a voice modulator to make his voice high and squeaky like a kobold) when we get close enough in the quest for him to make contact with us. He begins casting kobold sorcerer spells at us. It is a tough fight but eventually we vanquish him. We are rewarded with exp and a level-appropriate chest, and he is rewarded with a BTA goody for his troubles. He might even get a bonus if he manages to kill one of our party!

This could be handled on an opt-in basis. When your party leader sets up the quest, he can check "allow players to assume NPC roles".

Systern
01-08-2014, 09:53 PM
... What Goes Up has had its base XP changed by ... Well, let's not ruin the surprise. Let's just say it's a nice, impressive number.
...

Will it still give migraines? Will it be able to be completed without a Mabar-riffic number of spawns lag locking a full party until they wipe?
Because effectively, no matter what you set the number to, it's still 0 for me and all the people I play with. :(

Violith
01-08-2014, 10:00 PM
Hmm. I know a lot of people who either have a lockpicker or they have a chime which opens the door and that is super. If you decide to skp the door which can be picked or chimed and zerge through the kitchen without fighting you can also complete this very fast although the alert level does go up some, but it is super fast that way as well you just kill the two cats and the 4 guards in the side area before starting the end fight which reduces the alert level.


I think your misunderstanding what door. the upstairs that needs a lockpicker doesnt have a key AFAIK. the door that has the key is the archive, which is a required part, and you cant pick it. so if they move the location, the time required to run that quest will skyrocket compared to what it is now, (basically now you can go to flashstone room, go to archive (directly south of flashstone room), then run up the ramps right outside the door coming out from there to go to end room. which means they'll most likely move the key into the other section of the quest that no one bothers with, which unless that becomes a 40k+ base xp quest, it wont be worth it to run it.

Buffyanne
01-08-2014, 10:14 PM
Lowering the exp reward for one of the most popular quests in the game is not going to increase players' enjoyment, nor will it drive them to play quests that they have already decided they don't want to play any more. They will just play something else; some other game that offers things that they haven't done before.



Agreed. It's mind boggling to me that people were sitting around a conference table and decided it would be a good idea to ruin one of the most popular quests in the game.

sirgog
01-08-2014, 10:20 PM
I think you, along with the Devs, are missing one of the major factors that makes Von3 so popular over all the quests that you listed. Von3 has great XP and more importantly it also contains great optional XP throughout the quest, instead of only once or twice.

The Devs have skimped, and ignored players suggests for years, on including more optional XP in quests that includes mandatory mini-bosses and mobs. Instead, the Devs only include a handful of optional XP that many times are off the beaten path on the main goal of the quest. Von3 contains 6 guaranteed optionals directly in the path the main boss, plus 3 additional rare bosses that can pop up. The closest quest in your list that competes with this type of optional XP is Detour, but it has a very poor base XP and a lousy 2.5% optional XP, so the mini-bosses give a very anemic amount of XP.

We should be getting quests with great optional XP that can be found in Von3, Wiz-King, Caverns of Korromar, The Tear of Dhakaan, Redwillow's Ruins, Deleras: Missing Party, Stormcleave Outpost, Desert Caravan, Dreams of Insanity etc. All of those give players either alot of XP for doing the optionals (Wiz-King, Dreams of Insanity) or a decent amount of XP multiple times throughout the quest (all the other quests).

Additionally, all timed quests should be converted to give timed optional XP like Desert Caravan so there is an incentive to run these quests that lack base XP because of the horribly designed XP formula that prevents 15 minute quests from giving decent XP. Similarly, the quests that consists of wave after wave of attacks (such as Escape Plan) should give optional XP for each wave of attack, similar to Devil Assault.

====
I'd like to add one more thing and it is exactly what I said when Shadowfail "expansion" was in Beta: The Heroic quests in Shadowfail should give at least the same amount of XP found in the Vale, if not more XP. I repeated this statement over and over and it was ignored. It's not surprising that the request for XP to be increased was ignored back then, because increasing XP on Lamannia is ALWAYS ignored. It was surprising that the XP for a lackluster "expansion" was so bad from the get-go without even comparing it to other quests in the same level range.


Yeah one of the things about VON3 'back in the day' before it was the go-to farm quest was that even if you failed it, you left with some moderate amount of XP.

VON5/6 is similar assuming your failure happens in 6.

Rather than making quests easier to accomodate the worst 5% of players, it would be better to have the quests at a sensible difficulty, but provide a few more of these optionals that serve as real consolation prizes.

OldCoaly
01-08-2014, 10:31 PM
Nothing is more unpopular than nerfing XP.

Agree 1200%. Reducing the established rewards that players earn for effort invested is never ever well received.



You would think that the death of challenge running in the game following the massive XP nerfs would have been a lesson in this.

There is no evidence to suggest this is true, and several Dev posts indicating they believe that Challenge XP is more than equitable.



Past practice indicates this change is already set in stone, and no amount of standing on a bridge in Wayfinder will matter.

bsquishwizzy
01-08-2014, 10:37 PM
Not that anyone cares, I am ambivalent about neutering Jungle of Khyber.

However...

Quests that should get a bump in XP are as follows:

1) Everything in Amrath with the exception of Sins of Attrition. They are long quests. They are not solo-friendly in many cases. They are not exactly easy. You have a bear of a time getting a group together to run these things. Decent XP and a shot at Yugo pots will fix all of this.

2) Druid's Curse series. On elite, an average player will have a rough time of it. You cannot really zerg any of them (as far as I can tell). They are absent any sort of desirable loot. Moar XP is their only real salvation.

3) Crucible. Do I really need to explain why?

4) Restless Isles. These are cool quests, but long, hard to get to, and Titan is a very niche raid that is not new player friendly. It is very cool that you can flag for the raid once...which totally kills any incentive to run the quests again. Add XP, and incentive will appear overnight.

narizue
01-08-2014, 10:41 PM
XP rebalancing is all well and good, but to do so while not solving the issue with the number of commendations required for epic and iconic hearts seems like a step in the wrong direction to me.

One of the biggest features of the most recent update is a monumental grind for most of the players based on pricing of the hearts via commendation turn in.

You have a solution already in place, a virtual switch you can flip. You have admitted that it "may" require rebalancing. If that is the case, why not simply have commendations drop at the higher rate, rather then the lower rate until such time as you make a final decision.

I can tell you this, as a VIP customer for many years, at current comm drop rates, I will never buy a iconic or epic heart from the store. If you make them more reasonably affordable with comms, I may consider it in the future, but currently the blatant cash grab is just a little too blatant for me.

/sidetrack off.

reddoormedia
01-08-2014, 10:53 PM
Von 3 is one of the most fun zergs in the game something I look forward too because it feels like I am getting somewhere. This game is a perpetual treadmill and that quest at least makes it somewhat bearable. It's also a great pug quest where everyone gets along. Why ruin it? Buff the others YES but leave Von 3 alone.

redoubt
01-08-2014, 11:14 PM
We’re also planning to reduce the XP for one quest (on Epic only):

• Jungle of Khyber (Epic only)

Our goal is to get the XP numbers more in line with how long it takes to actually complete a quest. Some of the adjustments are minor - 6% more base XP for A Lesson in Deception, for example. Many of the changes are quite substantial. Ten of the quests have had their base XP raised by more than 20%. What Goes Up has had its base XP changed by ... Well, let's not ruin the surprise. Let's just say it's a nice, impressive number.

Knockback
Senior Content Designer

I hope when you look at time spent in a quest your are not evaluating how fast a group of level 27 characters are blasting through a level 20 quest for you data. i.e. late epic level characters grinding destinies in von3.

Turbine has a track record of making changes to quests based not on people running the quest at level, but rather what is happening to the quest when run well over-level. Please do not do this. If you want to make adjustments, make them based on normal characters running the quest at level.

Thank you.

guardianx2009
01-08-2014, 11:28 PM
I hope when you look at time spent in a quest your are not evaluating how fast a group of level 27 characters are blasting through a level 20 quest for you data. i.e. late epic level characters grinding destinies in von3.

Turbine has a track record of making changes to quests based not on people running the quest at level, but rather what is happening to the quest when run well over-level. Please do not do this. If you want to make adjustments, make them based on normal characters running the quest at level.

Thank you.

Blasting through level 20 quests have more to do with toons with maxxed out destinies than level.

Try running EH VON3 with a fresh group of level 20s vs a group of level 20s decked out in ED. Guess which group is going to blast through everything?

Sure, it's great fun for you to blitz your way to level 28. Sadly, the new guy without any ED experience basically has to pike his way to 28 watching others blitz and furyshot everything.. that's just wrong.

It's sad, but ED's should be level banded. Epic level questing is just so messed up unbalanced thanks to EDs.

Oxarhamar
01-08-2014, 11:33 PM
Hello everyone! We're planning another round of quest XP adjustments for Update 21, and we'd like to get your thoughts.

We've been listening to your feedback, so this time around we're looking specifically at epic quests. The exact details are still somewhat fluid, but I can definitely say we've increased the experience for 17 quests. Those quests are:

If you have ideas for which specific quests should be adjusted (or not adjusted) and why, this thread is the perfect place to talk about it. Please use this thread to discuss!

Knockback
Senior Content Designer

So another round of Quest XP adjustments this time in Epics.

While that's all fine and dandy the real issue is CoV not XP. There is plenty of epic XP to be had and no matter what everyone says about nerfing this quest or that in the end the same thing will happen as far as XP goes those who run a variety of quests will continue to do so and those who farm the highest XP/minute quests will find the newest top XP/minute quest and run them.

XP has been killed off by CoV

The only thing nerfing XP in Von 3 will do will make Karma farming different since Von3 was the choice quest for running in off destinies.

Oxarhamar
01-08-2014, 11:35 PM
Blasting through level 20 quests have more to do with toons with maxxed out destinies than level.

Try running EH VON3 with a fresh group of level 20s vs a group of level 20s decked out in ED. Guess which group is going to blast through everything?

Sure, it's great fun for you to blitz your way to level 28. Sadly, the new guy without any ED experience basically has to pike his way to 28 watching others blitz and furyshot everything.. that's just wrong.

It's sad, but ED's should be level banded. Epic level questing is just so messed up unbalanced thanks to EDs.

that's silly...I blast through EH Von 3 at lvl 20 in off destinies for Karma.

Fomori
01-08-2014, 11:40 PM
I know this may be absurd, but just change all xp in game to automagically adjust the quest xp = to <n> xp/min no matter what quest you run, no matter how long it takes.

That way the xp/min crowd will run whatever quest since they are all the exact same xp/min. Unless you do that we are going to have the "best quest to run" and "worst quests to run" lists.

It seems that this is the ultimate equalizer on time. People can play what they want... zerger, flowersniffer, and be completely equal. It might even revitalize the pug scene as people wont get mad about ruining their "xp/min".

We are past this point in the MMO industry. The games are becoming free to play and are not requiring the grind to keep the money train from hardcore subscribers. Let DDO be the first the embrace, and create, trends that people really want.

slarden
01-08-2014, 11:46 PM
I, too, am more interested in seeing optionals get a boost. Optional XP should be based on time of completion relative to the main quest objectives and difficulty.

For example, in House of Death Undone most of the optionals are only worth 5% of the base XP even though some of them can more than double the time it takes to complete the quest. How does that make any sense? In House of Broken Chains the optional to preserve the slaves during the end fight may not take long, but it's so difficult that 5% bonus XP isn't remotely worth the effort.

I would be happy if optional xp worked as intended.

Right now in quests like Tor, Wiz King and Von 3 I do not get full xp for optionals even when I am getting the 20% daily bonus. Optional xp sometimes returns to the proper level and sometimes doesn't. The ransack recovery system is not working for optionals and this has been verified by many people. Just type /ransack in the quest and any objectives listed below 80% will give you less than full xp. I have optionals that give me -80% even though I haven't run the quest in 2 days.

Scraap
01-09-2014, 12:08 AM
Rather than making quests easier to accomodate the worst 5% of players, it would be better to have the quests at a sensible difficulty, but provide a few more of these optionals that serve as real consolation prizes.

That really would be the preference. For myself, the reason I run that particular quest really is less to do with the XP/min, and more to do with the variation in runs due to the randomized optionals with decent payouts per.

LargoKeyWest
01-09-2014, 12:23 AM
My main suggestion would be to explore a general bump to the XP on EE difficulty relative to EH. Right now, epic XP across difficulties is currently scaled the same way that HN-HH-HE are scaled despite the fact that the difference in difficulty and time to complete is much greater from EH to EE than it is from HH to HE.

More like, the difficulty jump from EH to EE is kind of insane, with critters taking on a whole new definition of W-T-H??? In any case.. the end chest payout is pretty crappy in comparison to other quests.. EXP is the only draw it DOES have. Neutering VoN3 isn't going to push folks to ES quests.. it's going to give them less a reason to run at all.

dragon2fire
01-09-2014, 12:36 AM
Getting really sick and tired of you guys nerfing xp. Vol....Reclaiming memories....mining....now von3 witch you just raised last update.


Seriously devs you guys suck leave my game alone.

Algreg
01-09-2014, 12:47 AM
The nerf to VoN3 xp is more than justified, even as I "enjoyed" farming it like everyone else. I would love to have some incentive to run different and forgotten quests - but most epic quests do need a lot more than a few % to their rewards. This game is really grindy past level 20, which would be bearable if you did it once like in most other MMORPG. But DDO actually encourages you to rerun old content again and again. Now with a raised level cap on the horizon, well...

regarding optionals and some people´s pet peeve "zerging": no, that will not make players who know a quest in and out slow down, they will then just "zerg" the optionals and we will still have the good ol´complaining in here.

dragon2fire
01-09-2014, 12:52 AM
The nerf to VoN3 xp is more than justified, even as I "enjoyed" farming it like everyone else. I would love to have some incentive to run different and forgotten quests - but most epic quests do need a lot more than a few % to their rewards. This game is really grindy past level 20, which would be bearable if you did it once like in most other MMORPG. But DDO actually encourages you to rerun old content again and again. Now with a raised level cap on the horizon, well...

regarding optionals and some people´s pet peeve "zerging": no, that will not make players who know a quest in and out slow down, they will then just "zerg" the optionals and we will still have the good ol´complaining in here.

no one forces you to run von3 ....thats what is fail about saying a nerf is ok you have options as to what you want to run.....and actually if you are epic tring you should not run von3 or any thing in ebberorn short of gh.

goodspeed
01-09-2014, 01:09 AM
I say forget all that forgotten realms **** and jack up the old epics. That or link the portal into the darkening to the quests themselves. It aint the xp that deters... well it does add to it. It's running all the way out there, with a map that

It's annoying. I mean its annoying enough in GH to have to jog to the upper left quests even with the tele. If that teleporter wasn't there in kings forest I can guarantee id be a frost risa in .. before anyone would jog that ridiculous distance. That quest could give 80k or more xp and I still wouldn't jog out there.

Though citw quests in general aren't much fun, lol especially the house of death. It's almost up there with coal chamber.

Im telln ya man, old epics are the way to go. dust chain, carnival, sands, vons, sentinel. They're easy to get to, some even hold worth while items still farmed. What do the citw quests hold? Fun? no. They're drull. Some type of must have item? Again no those were killed off 10 times over by common loot available on an AH. A flagging? Again no, everyone pretty much has their citw weapons, and if you were still trying (which again sucks because the drop rate for some of those made it nearly a waste of time for its length and annoyance) you only did the quests once.

Two quests come to mind that still hold some value somewhat. The grave wraps from the graveyard in kings forest, and dun robar for it's +10 stunning ring.

dragon2fire
01-09-2014, 01:10 AM
You know what is really fail about all this.....Epic xp per mintue is so pointless with the coms system in place....yes speed of quest matters but only for its coms not the xp....you guys have made it so that buying pots and books is foolish if you want to avoid a grind...that is so back ward....what really concerns me though is that you are focused on xp .......xp is stupid easy and fast to get in this game you can nerf and buff all you want it matters not the real power gamers are going to do things very quickly regardless.


I really hate that this is the area that your attentions are focused on....it shows just how out of touch the devs are with how we actually play.

SilkofDrasnia
01-09-2014, 01:24 AM
no one forces you to run von3 ....thats what is fail about saying a nerf is ok you have options as to what you want to run.....and actually if you are epic tring you should not run von3 or any thing in ebberorn short of gh.

What it comes down to is it isn't about balancing anything or what is justified or not, it is about trying to force people to play a certain way. Turbine has their reasons for doing this which in my opinion is about $$$ and for many in these forums it's more about forcing others to run different quests because for some reason they want people to pug via the lfm.

It's like you say those that are sick and tired of running von3 do not have to run it, if there are so many of them they just need to get together and run shadowfail together but alas that is not good enough they want to nerf other peoples fun in the hopes it will make them run or play as they wish us to.

I mean why simply run what you want when you can ruin it for others? Why not make the other sandboxes more interesting and leave it at that when you can also just go take a dump in the one you feel is getting too much attention?

Vellrad
01-09-2014, 01:45 AM
You know what is really fail about all this.....Epic xp per mintue is so pointless with the coms system in place....yes speed of quest matters but only for its coms not the xp....you guys have made it so that buying pots and books is foolish if you want to avoid a grind...that is so back ward....what really concerns me though is that you are focused on xp .......xp is stupid easy and fast to get in this game you can nerf and buff all you want it matters not the real power gamers are going to do things very quickly regardless.


I really hate that this is the area that your attentions are focused on....it shows just how out of touch the devs are with how we actually play.

You'll get comms faster at hihger level.
You're better with leveling to lvl24 ASAP with high XP/min quets ignoring comms, than running variety of low epic level quests for 30 comms per one until you'll level to 24.
Level 24 means you are allowed to enter into EE stormhorns, where most comms drops.

Also, you're finishing quest faster at lvl28 than at 20, so you're better to level fast and farm comms with most powerful character possible, instead of some lowbie gimp.

dragon2fire
01-09-2014, 01:52 AM
You'll get comms faster at hihger level.
You're better with leveling to lvl24 ASAP with high XP/min quets ignoring comms, than running variety of low epic level quests for 30 comms per one until you'll level to 24.
Level 24 means you are allowed to enter into EE stormhorns, where most comms drops.

Also, you're finishing quest faster at lvl28 than at 20, so you're better to level fast and farm comms with most powerful character possible, instead of some lowbie gimp.

Two things first you have to be 25 for ee storm horns....second power comes form eds more then level. And you make my point for me....the system in place punishes focusing on xp...its about coms...period and there are so many things wrong with that.

JohnWarlock
01-09-2014, 01:53 AM
Gotta love DDO and their "nerfs" or their so called balancing act. I fail to see the point of lowering the xp on Von 3, only to TRY and FORCE people to run other quests. Just raise the **** xp on the other quests, no one is running von 3 for the loot or the epic items, **** not many people run the old epics for the items, because there is a total of maybe 5 or 6 items that might be worthwhile having. Why not instead of screwing around with xp so much, make a new upgrade to items, the old level 20 epics get a boost to level 25. That would be much more worthwhile. Now if you want the new quests to be run more often make it so they give more than 20k when you are repeating them. Also like some players commented, Commendations of Valor need a **** boost, having to do 5-6 quests every day for a 6 weeks just to get 4,200 commendations is a bit ridiculous. If you really want people to spend the money on the hearts, lower the price on the hearts. Not make it more difficult to get a heart in game.

dragon2fire
01-09-2014, 01:56 AM
Gotta love DDO and their "nerfs" or their so called balancing act. I fail to see the point of lowering the xp on Von 3, only to TRY and FORCE people to run other quests. Just raise the **** xp on the other quests, no one is running von 3 for the loot or the epic items, **** not many people run the old epics for the items, because there is a total of maybe 5 or 6 items that might be worthwhile having. Why not instead of screwing around with xp so much, make a new upgrade to items, the old level 20 epics get a boost to level 25. That would be much more worthwhile. Now if you want the new quests to be run more often make it so they give more than 20k when you are repeating them. Also like some players commented, Commendations of Valor need a **** boost, having to do 5-6 quests every day for a 6 weeks just to get 4,200 commendations is a bit ridiculous. If you really want people to spend the money on the hearts, lower the price on the hearts. Not make it more difficult to get a heart in game.

This.

Algreg
01-09-2014, 02:00 AM
no one forces you to run von3 ....thats what is fail about saying a nerf is ok you have options as to what you want to run.....and actually if you are epic tring you should not run von3 or any thing in ebberorn short of gh.

this argument is as old on MMORPG forums as it is wrong, noone forces me to play at all, that is not the point.

dragon2fire
01-09-2014, 02:07 AM
this argument is as old on MMORPG forums as it is wrong, noone forces me to play at all, that is not the point.

Please explain to me in game that is pve what me getting fast xp when i want to is hurting please tell me.

Erdzen
01-09-2014, 02:08 AM
Don't you think you should change A Cabal for One?
On Epic and Heroic it's very low EXP.

Silverleafeon
01-09-2014, 02:09 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the first xp adjustments INCREASED Von 3, did it not?

blerkington
01-09-2014, 02:13 AM
Hi,

It does seem pretty obvious that xp is being jacked up on the new content to make it more attractive. The problem is, it's a real lipstick on a pig solution.

Most of the quests in the xp increase list just aren't very good content. They are boring and unimaginative. A lot of the loot in them isn't that good. There are very annoying graphical effects and unnecessary auto dungeon alert associated with several of the wheloon and storm horns quests, which for me is a major disincentive.

Of the quests listed, What Goes Up is a good one, but seriously, putting the shadowfell effect on top of a white surface at the end fight? I don't like it when it becomes a hassle to complete a quest because some game designer thought it was a good idea that I not be able to see what I'm doing. Tell me again why you are making it unpleasant and uncomfortable to play your game, because I don't understand.

On top of that, I wonder if it has occurred to someone at home office that building the current amount of inaccessibility of these quests into the wilderness area design, in a shallow attempt to mulct people of astral shards so they can avoid the inconvenience of navigating those areas, is making people avoid these quests? Seems like that might be shooting yourself in the foot.

When the expansions came out I saw people in pugs just give up on trying to get to quests both in wheloon and the storm horns because it was just too inconvenient for them and they refused to pay for the privilege. Yeah, I bought the expansion, and now you want me to pay to move around in it? I've also seen embarrassing displays of gratitude from similar groups (after I learned the maps) when helping new people navigate.

I'm not going to argue against extra xp; it will be nice for those occasions when I do the quests, and particularly nice for people who like them enough to run them regularly. But like I said, it won't change how often I run that content, and I suspect it won't be enough to bribe most of the people I know to make them part of their rotation.

Lastly, if these changes don't give the desired results to our questing patterns, it might be time to start taking into account some of the more critical feedback you are getting from the playerbase. Maybe there is more wrong with the game than you would like to admit.

Thanks.

dragon2fire
01-09-2014, 02:14 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the first xp adjustments INCREASED Von 3, did it not?

Yes it did one update ago and since the xp is high its being ran a bunch on eh or en and quickly aswell so they want to nerf it.....here is the thing though....They said they would look at the coms system again after it had some time to see how well it was working......Seems like they are pretty fast to nerf but sure take there time to assess a grind that is hurting the game every single day.

silinteresting
01-09-2014, 02:20 AM
ive never asked for anything in these forums until today.

devs please do not nerf the xp from von 3.

your friend sil :)

Teelk_Jafffa
01-09-2014, 02:32 AM
I have only have one thing to say about the Shadowfell series. I have yet to group with anyone who likes the purple haze. Personally it gives me a raving headache if I run the quests. I was very, very disappointed with the developers feeling the need to add a feature to the game that makes people prefer to avoid quests. This problem ranks right up there with the white door that was in the crafting hall and glitterdust effects. If this is how future expansions are going to be designed, I guess myself and my money will move on to another game.

Silverleafeon
01-09-2014, 02:38 AM
The reason why Armarth xp is poor:

Please don't include loot in the decision about how good xp is.

They are separate.

Dandonk
01-09-2014, 02:47 AM
Von3 xp IS out of proportion with other xp being given, so I suppose a nerf is understandable. I would like to see the actual figures before I really say anything - will the xp be nerfed into the ground (as per usual) so noone will ever play von3 again except for flagging, or will it be a more reasonable adjustment?

dragon2fire
01-09-2014, 02:51 AM
Von3 xp IS out of proportion with other xp being given, so I suppose a nerf is understandable. I would like to see the actual figures before I really say anything - will the xp be nerfed into the ground (as per usual) so noone will ever play von3 again except for flagging, or will it be a more reasonable adjustment?

Von 3 has always been a bit more who cares...more to the point why are they trying to force us to run there terrible expansion.

Dandonk
01-09-2014, 02:57 AM
Von 3 has always been a bit more who cares...more to the point why are they trying to force us to run there terrible expansion.

Oh, I agree - there are many issues with the expansion content, and this should be looked into. I also do not think that von3 having "a bit" more xp is a problem, but it's not just "a bit", it has much MUCH more xp/min than other content. Taking von3 something like 10% down while boosting the others by 20% wouldn't be too bad IMO.

But until we know what the actual figures are, I can't really say whether this is ok or bad.

Xharath
01-09-2014, 03:05 AM
Nice! Think the endfight in theneral Shoud be ajusted
( hold for reinforcements)

toaftoaf
01-09-2014, 03:43 AM
fix your bugs at least get the bug list down to the pre MOTU numbers

Silverleafeon
01-09-2014, 03:44 AM
How about greatly increasing CitW xp?

BruceTheHoon
01-09-2014, 03:56 AM
If you have ideas for which specific quests should be adjusted (or not adjusted) and why, this thread is the perfect place to talk about it. Please use this thread to discuss!

Not epic but glaringly obvious: AM-****ING-RATH

From epic: Red fens, deneith and phiarlan chains.

Since I don't think You're going to touch any of these quests anytime soon, there's nothing holding You back from changing their XP at this time.

Wizza
01-09-2014, 04:12 AM
Or you could, you know, decrease the XP needed for each of Epic levels instead of raising random **** quests of Shadowfail by 6% (is that a joke? it's not even funny).

The nerf to Von3 is lame. Reconsider it. And of course, while we get some quests adjusted by a SIX%, VoN3 will be likely nerfed by a 60%, proper Turbine Style.

In the belly of the beast? Who is going to run that pain when just the run to the quest takes minutes?
Chains of Flame? Really?
Who is going to run WGU for xp, even with a 100% XP increase? It's a pain in the ars.

Where are the adjustments to Amrath, House C, Red Fens, House D, House P chains? You are adjusting XP of quests not even run for XP.

WE DO NOT LIKE SHADOWFAIL. WE WON'T EVEN WITH THE XP CHANGES. GET - OVER - IT.

Deadlock
01-09-2014, 04:14 AM
I should mention that we're thinking about a content change to House of Death Undone (where/how you get the key) that would affect its XP/minute. That will not make it into Update 21, though.

Let me understand this here.

Someone posts to ask you not to bump the XP on House of Death Undone because it has good xp/min already.

You reply by saying 'yeah, we're planning on changing that'.

Can I repeat my previous post in the futile hope of a reply?

Do yourself a massive favour here and take some advice.

Please state clearly
(1) what your target range of xp per minute is in coming to these decisions for Heroic and Epic Normal, Hard and Elite? I'm assuming you don't have a single number of xp/min to aim for.
(2) what data do you base your times on?

Without this information, we have no way of coming back to you with any sort of useful feedback on what we consider acceptable/worthwhile/WAI.

Yalinaa
01-09-2014, 04:26 AM
Doing LFMs for Shadowfail quests usually is leading to nowhere, hard to get people for those. VoN 3 is filling in a couple of minutes, anytime. Most of you would say, it's because the xp, but I think it's more than that. I can fill EE Cabal easily, and it has an abysmal xp as well, like 24k on EE?? To be honest, if they double the xp in Shadowfail, then what? Thrill of the hunt EE will give ya how much... 36k xp??!! Still PATHETIC!! And the quests there won't be more fun. Show me another badly designed quest where the xp bump made people farm that quest, there is none.

Developers should pay attention several things here.

1. If they change something, it shouldn't be a partial thing! Changing 17 quests xp wise.... WHY NOT REBALANCE THE XP SYSTEM FOR ALL QUESTS??!! Too much work? Don't make me laugh.

2. A badly designed quest with double xp would still remain... a badly designed quest. People will run other quests with the same xp, if they are enjoying those more. Specially if the badly designed ones only give ya junk items as loot. Punishing people because they are running different quests what the devs are wanna them to run, is NOT good.

3. Some quests can be run more often with minor changes and a nice xp bump, like Cabal.

4. Epic elite xp needs a bonus upgrade, badly.

lyrecono
01-09-2014, 04:33 AM
Hello everyone! We're planning another round of quest XP adjustments for Update 21, and we'd like to get your thoughts.

We've been listening to your feedback, so this time around we're looking specifically at epic quests. The exact details are still somewhat fluid, but I can definitely say we've increased the experience for 17 quests. Those quests are:

• Chains of Flame (Epic only)
• Forgotten realms pita quest

We’re also planning to reduce the XP for one quest (on Epic only):

• Jungle of Khyber (Epic only)



raising exp on bad quest and lowering it on fun quests is like shooting yourself in the foot.
You force us to run in of destinies and take away one of the better quests to do that?
NO!
We don't look kindly on that.
reading your post i get the idea that the sales of failoon looked bad and you guys decided to look at what quest were run often and wich were not.
That seems far more logical.
If you want to sell more forgotten realms (trash) content i suggest making good content from the get go
Your proposal is denied, go away and take your failed plans with you, come back when you read the entire tread and adjusted your plan acordingly.



Unless you increase the XP in these by a factor of one million, I'll never willingly set foot in them. Maybe not even then. I grudgingly do the prison for PDK favour. I think these quests are bad quests, and I don't enjoy running them.

Farming Karma sucks already. Lowering the XP in Von 3 is going to make it suck even more. It's VERY obvious that you're all disappointed that more people don't run Shadowfail content (there's a reason it has that nickname) and you're trying your damndest to get people out there. I'm not sure more XP is gonna do it. I only run the prison junk on HE for favour purposes when I don't feel like going through the other stuff on EE. And also skipping the yawnfest challenges that give PDK favour.

GL getting people to run awful content though. You're gonna need it.

this!
8 pages on why people don't like running shadowfail and stormhorns content, fix those first!
Repair the quest, lag and purple haze are anoying
Add propper named items instead of the pitefull excuse we have now.
Double exp and triple coms
This might get more people to run it, for now: i avoid it, it was a waste of my money and advise new people not to buy this!


Spanner-in-the-works time.

Boosting the XP means we get less Comms on our way to 28. I hope you take this in to account when you finally get around to dropping the requirement from 4,200.

Thanks.

I now have 3.3m XP and about 680 Comms. I have hardly repeated anything. Ive only done VON 3 a couple of times. I did EE VON 5 which gave 200k XP for nothing, but that is still only a small part of my total XP.

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but feel that Comms need to be considered as much as anything else, when you are making fundamental changes to the game.

Yes, the coms of vallor need to be fixed asap! i grind a heroic heart faster then a epic heart



Level 24 means you are allowed to enter into EE stormhorns, where most comms drops.

Not everybody can do EE failoon/stormhorns at 28 let alone 24, most importantly, the content is sub par, not everybody likes running it

Lauf
01-09-2014, 04:51 AM
Don't you think you should change [insert quest here]?



Hiding in plain sight.

takes forever, gives too little xp.

Flavilandile
01-09-2014, 05:03 AM
Raising the XP from Shadowfail while nerfing VON3 won't make us run Shadowfail quests.

It's called Shadowfail for a reason : it's just a huge failure.

The Purple Seizure and headache inducing Haze in Wheelon makes a lot of people avoid the place. Even if you tripled hte XP people wouldn't go there because of hte Haze.
The time wasted running to quests in Stormhorn ( it's also valid for most of the Eveningstar quests ) from the Guild airship make them not interesting.
If you look at the Desert you'll see that beside Wiz King and the Raid Flagging ( you need to change that to be a pre-raid ?* la Vault of Night 5 ), people don't bother to run them beyond getting the original Flagging.
Gianthold quests running is the longest many people will accept, and even some of them are ran a lot less than others ( the ones around the top left of the map ) because it talkes twice the time to reach them than to reach any other GH quest.

Once again, it boil down to what DDO is : DDO is a niche game that originally told us that we didn't have to waste time running to quests since the quests were all behind doors.
By putting quests in Huge ( and every time a new area comes out the are bigger and bigger ) area that forces us to run ( thus waste time ) is the antithesis of what appeals us to DDO.

That's why all the Stormreach ( and Eberron ) quests have a better appeal than the FR quests. and changing XPs will ( mostly ) not change anything about it. People will just go down to the next best XP/minute quest in Eberron where it can be reached in 30 seconds from the Guild Ship ( including the time taken to talk to the quest giver ) and not 5 to 10 minutes of running around several areas.

What you need to change, if you want us to run those quest is the reachability of the quests. They have to be less than 2 minutes and at worst at 2 loading screen from the Guild Ship.
( Example : Right now any Wheloon quest is 3 Loading Screen and 4/5 minutes running from the ship for a character with an Eveningstar Key... Without the Key it adds 3 Loading Screen and 3 areas to run through... and that doesn't include running to the quest in wheloon and surviving the Seizure From The Haze. )

Also putting interesting named loot in those quests would greatly help in having them run... As things are with the Great Ghostbaning of Loot and the side effect it had on Named Loot there's no point in trying to get Named Loot from Forgotten Realms Quests.

Koowluh
01-09-2014, 05:39 AM
*snip*

But how in the heck are they going to sell you those Astral Shards you need for that teleporter NPC then?

This reminds me of a Youtube video of a famous game reviewer. A company actually advertised that you can pay to skip the grind. Needless to say, that company's comment was burned to the ground with very much the same argument that I would like to give here: If you are going to put features in to skip the grind, then you are basically designing your game to be a grind else no one would even consider that skip feature.

This is what I felt like when I stepped into Wheloon the first time and saw the teleporter NPC. The wilderness areas are getting bigger, longer and harder to navigate just so they can toss those teleporter guys in order to exploit their Astral Shard System (see what I did there?).

I'm NOT buying your horrible shards.

Sorry, getting offtopic. Please continue.

Kmnh
01-09-2014, 05:51 AM
It's good to get more xp from different quests, it keeps in line with the philosophy of bravery bonus and lets people who enjoy longer more difficult runs get their xp without grinding on epic normal too much. I like the changes :)

Don't mind the shadowfell haters. To me, those are the best quests introduced into the game since the original sands epics. The devs listened the feedback and gave us boss fights that can challenge the dreadnoughts/furies/shiradis. Keep up the good work.

Fedora1
01-09-2014, 05:55 AM
My only suggestion would be to raise the xp of both House D Epics (Bargain of Blood, etc.) and Red Fens. Both those areas could use a boost (And loot overhaul, but I'll take an xp boost for now).

Agree, especially Red Fen loot. It is only usable as a TR, because it is way under powered for the level of character running Red Fens.

RedOrm
01-09-2014, 05:57 AM
My thoughts:

-Increasing xp on various quests: Good. Finally. 20% however is not all that much and for most of these quests certainly not enough. 30-40% of base xp is more like it. Make it even more if it takes more than 1 minute to get from your ship to the entrance. Better yet, give a bonus of 1% per 10 seconds of travel time to all quests in the game.
Another thing that would help is to ensure enough monsters and breakables to get ransack/conquest.
Making mini bosses give bonus xp and a chest would also help a lot.
Removing the purple headache will definitely help (though probably not enough to get wheloon on the radar for me). How about instead turning the game monochrome?

-Dropping xp on von3: Not so good. Leave VON3 alone. At minimum, postpone it till update 22, so it can be seen what the effects of point 1 are.

-other quests that need more xp: All of Amrath. Red Fens. Deneith. If you want more detailed commetn, give more detailed INFO. I've had more than enough seriously bad surprises that I'm not holding my breath for your

-3BC: this is a lovely area, that has nothing worth running it for. Increasing xp will do little here, as there are plenty of easier-to-reach quests at this level. Upgrade the whole area by 10 levels or so, tie all quests in there into a saga, adjust loot and xp as appropriate, and suddenly you have a winner.

And now for the really important bit:
>Cov's: As has repeatedly been pointed out, if cov drop numbers are not ALSO significantly increased, your fiddling with epic xp will be meaningless. Von3 will still be good for capping off destinies, the other quests listed will still suck rocksalt acid. Cov drop in december was about right. To repeat for clarity: significantly increase the drop rate of cov's, otherwise you might as well not bother.

And while you're at it, REMOVE cov's from the endreward list and make them drop in the freaking CHESTS! You CAN do this without making it possible for people to give them away, as you already did so with reknown. We should NOT have to choose between cov's and named loot!!

Greetz,
Red Orm

Fedora1
01-09-2014, 05:59 AM
Just going off the OP (not having read all the replies yet) one suggestion I would make is to grant a little more xp during the quest; either by way of optionals or at certain way points. It really hurts to spend an hour on a quest, wipe at the end, and end up with zero xp.

Not asking for a lot, but something equal to about 25% of the quest xp if you complete 75% or more of it. Or whatever - just a suggestion.

Yalinaa
01-09-2014, 06:05 AM
Don't mind the shadowfell haters. To me, those are the best quests introduced into the game since the original sands epics. The devs listened the feedback and gave us boss fights that can challenge the dreadnoughts/furies/shiradis. Keep up the good work.

You mean jump up to safe spot and range Karleth in Thrill? Running invis in Mirror Darkly? Stay at barrier in Tracker's trap and range boss? And so on... Yeah, big, big challenges.:)

kned225
01-09-2014, 06:08 AM
The time wasted running to quests in Stormhorn ( it's also valid for most of the Eveningstar quests ) from the Guild airship make them not interesting.
If you look at the Desert you'll see that beside Wiz King and the Raid Flagging ( you need to change that to be a pre-raid ?* la Vault of Night 5 ), people don't bother to run them beyond getting the original Flagging.
Gianthold quests running is the longest many people will accept, and even some of them are ran a lot less than others ( the ones around the top left of the map ) because it talkes twice the time to reach them than to reach any other GH quest.

Once again, it boil down to what DDO is : DDO is a niche game that originally told us that we didn't have to waste time running to quests since the quests were all behind doors.
By putting quests in Huge ( and every time a new area comes out the are bigger and bigger ) area that forces us to run ( thus waste time ) is the antithesis of what appeals us to DDO.

That's why all the Stormreach ( and Eberron ) quests have a better appeal than the FR quests. and changing XPs will ( mostly ) not change anything about it. People will just go down to the next best XP/minute quest in Eberron where it can be reached in 30 seconds from the Guild Ship ( including the time taken to talk to the quest giver ) and not 5 to 10 minutes of running around several areas.

What you need to change, if you want us to run those quest is the reachability of the quests. They have to be less than 2 minutes and at worst at 2 loading screen from the Guild Ship.
( Example : Right now any Wheloon quest is 3 Loading Screen and 4/5 minutes running from the ship for a character with an Eveningstar Key... Without the Key it adds 3 Loading Screen and 3 areas to run through... and that doesn't include running to the quest in wheloon and surviving the Seizure From The Haze.


Yes!! YES!! 1000 times this!!

This is a HUGE factor in what i decide to run. Accessibility should absolutely be a big part of the xp equation. Reward me for slogging through your nonsense just to run a quest

Quickben1
01-09-2014, 06:09 AM
WOW, too much *love* going on.../sarcasm off

Ok Von 3 , was in need to reduce it's xp.
First of all i'd like to state , that i DO NOT belong to the flower-sniffers and i am CONSTANTLY using xp pots, even when i can't afford em, the trade ins from House C. 5% is better than 0%...

Back to topic, von3 optionals on e.h. gave with Vip bonus/5% ship,but NO voice and a 20% pot, around 8-11k xp depending daily bonuses or something i miss...8k...minimum....per optional....u can have up to 8?9 optionals?and another 120k xp on completion...that's ...200k xp?***
And when u talk about fun, when u run it daily...once not per toon, but once daily....after a month u'll lose every point of fun u had, cause u know where the optional spawns, what color pants it wears and the animation before it casts the 1st buff which u know it will be web... come on, spare me the fun part...it's an ordeal and u just happen to love the xp per minute and you call THAT FUN! it's not fun , it's satisfaction of getting a ton of EASY xp, and that's all.

Shadowfell and Stormhorns, well that's a personal issue of what one calls fun and what not, so i will not comment on it, because it will just be a meaningless personal opinion and will not represent anyone but me. IT's up to you to run whatever content you want, remember that some of us enjoy quests that YOU hate and vice versa.
And as some1 else mentioned , XP u can find in abundance, we need MOAR love on the commendations department. The double bonus event, was just great, and even if it was a bit too much - at least that's what some ppl dared to call it- an increase on the commendations reward would be most welcome.

Quickben Adaephon Delat

*** That's of course the most you can get and not the ammount u get from each run, and i repeat INCLUDING XP pots (20% if not more).***

Kmnh
01-09-2014, 06:09 AM
You mean jump up to safe spot and range Karleth in Thrill? Running invis in Mirror Darkly? Stay at barrier in Tracker's trap and range boss? And so on... Yeah, big, big challenges.:)

Yeah, there are exploits to cheese some of the boss fights. That doesn't make them any less enjoyable for the people who do them properly.

lyrecono
01-09-2014, 06:14 AM
inflated hp/saves/dps does not a challenge make...
it just creates a small percentage that is willing to run geared to the teeth coockie cutter builds that all look the same.
variety, proper quest design, non linier pathing, interesting (non emo) story writing, puzzles, interesting mobs (no recolored versions, were not playing a 90's console game), good loot, good exp, easy to get to.
Failoon/storm horns has none of this.
How often is stormreaver and fot run compaired to the titan raid?

Derana
01-09-2014, 06:18 AM
• Chains of Flame (Epic only)
• Trial By Fury (Epic only)
• The Druid's Curse (Epic only)
• Thorn and Paw (Epic only)
• Outbreak (Epic only)
• In The Belly of the Beast (Epic only)
• The House of Death Undone (Epic only)
• The Tracker's Trap (both Epic and Heroic)
• What Goes Up (both Epic and Heroic)
• Breaking the Ranks (both Epic and Heroic)
• A Break in the Ice (both Epic and Heroic)
• Lines of Supply (both Epic and Heroic)
• Army of Shadow (both Epic and Heroic)
• Through a Mirror Darkly (both Epic and Heroic)
• The Thrill of the Hunt (both Epic and Heroic)
• Friends in Low Places (both Epic and Heroic)
• A Lesson in Deception (both Epic and Heroic)

We’re also planning to reduce the XP for one quest (on Epic only):

• Jungle of Khyber (Epic only)


good idea. all of these quests need a major xp boost. the only problem that i see is getting comms done once these quests r boosted up. i cant get 4200 collected now already before i am 28, simply because i get too few based on xp... with these boosts it will take even longer. but that just on a side note.

i dont mind the exp reduction of jungle of khyber either.. doesnt bother me at all if i get 40, 60, 80 or 120k xp. the quest is super easy on eh (what ppl run most of the time anyway) and its done in a fairly short amount of time.

Eth
01-09-2014, 06:20 AM
Why is this even a discussion?

Take all the data you have for average completion time and granted xp for every quest.
Adjust every quest to grant the same xp/minute. Maybe add a bit more for quests that take longer to walk up.

Problem solved - easy.

(You would only have to discuss what xp/min should be the target).

Kmnh
01-09-2014, 06:24 AM
Why is this even a discussion?

Take all the data you have for average completion time and granted xp for every quest.
Adjust every quest to grant the same xp/minute. Maybe add a bit more for quests that take longer to walk up.

Problem solved - easy.

(You would only have to discuss what xp/min should be the target).

That doesn't work. Example: A good party can complete inferno of the damned in less than five minutes. I doubt that the average completion time is anywhere close to that.

Vellrad
01-09-2014, 06:32 AM
Maybe add a bit more for quests that take longer to walk up.


And how do you determine which quests takes longer to walk?

For example, I can get to WGU in less than 2 minutes with just 30% striding (not counting loading screens, as they're different for everyone), but there are people that takes 5 or more.

Also, someone said that belly takes few minutes of running. Indeed, I saw quite few people lost in underdark, but for me, it takes longer to run from eveninstar well to underdark portal, than from portal to quest entrance.

It would be really hard to balance time spent at wilderness to quest XP, especially, that while far from entrance some quests are close to each other.

GoRinNoSho
01-09-2014, 06:40 AM
• Chains of Flame (Epic only)
• Trial By Fury (Epic only)
• The Druid's Curse (Epic only)
• Thorn and Paw (Epic only)
• Outbreak (Epic only)
• In The Belly of the Beast (Epic only)
• The House of Death Undone (Epic only)
• The Tracker's Trap (both Epic and Heroic)
• What Goes Up (both Epic and Heroic)
• Breaking the Ranks (both Epic and Heroic)
• A Break in the Ice (both Epic and Heroic)
• Lines of Supply (both Epic and Heroic)
• Army of Shadow (both Epic and Heroic)
• Through a Mirror Darkly (both Epic and Heroic)
• The Thrill of the Hunt (both Epic and Heroic)
• Friends in Low Places (both Epic and Heroic)
• A Lesson in Deception (both Epic and Heroic)

We’re also planning to reduce the XP for one quest (on Epic only):

• Jungle of Khyber (Epic only)

Our goal is to get the XP numbers more in line with how long it takes to actually complete a quest. Some of the adjustments are minor - 6% more base XP for A Lesson in Deception, for example. Many of the changes are quite substantial. Ten of the quests have had their base XP raised by more than 20%. What Goes Up has had its base XP changed by ... Well, let's not ruin the surprise. Let's just say it's a nice, impressive number.


So pork chops around the necks of ugly daughters and mud slung on the popular one.

I think part of the problem is that you are focusing on one axis of growth and missing the forest for the trees. As others have pointed out, XP is not the lynch pin anymore. In addition to commendations, basic loot availability to build up cash for newer characters.

Next, you are shooting a bit of socialization that is going on that used to go on in Shroud where groups intermingle based on when they have run the quest. This causes people to meet and get used to new people, which will cause more grouping in the future as more people have a basic idea of what each other can do.

----

Chains - Not sure why this had not been done sooner. Chains is way out of the way and a lot less fun than OOB and Raymond.

Trial to Outbreak - These were hurt by the change to encourage 1 run per day, which blunts the desire of targeted named loot acquisition (ivy wraps, leaves, etc.)

Belly - This was crushed by sudden dungeon alert syndrome and lack of loot (general or named). Fool me once hit this quest hard. Also, it isn't helped by the fact that it is the only quest in the underdark area. Massive slayer area, 1 quest.

Death Undone - This and Rusted used to be the farm circuit until the 70 DC speedbump was added.

Tracker's Trap - Shatner Kai whirly chain, immense hitpoint random hill giant as a time sink, and the tediousness of the end fight for melees. This plus 3 chests dissuades play.

What goes up - Heh. Tedious end fight with very annoying graphics effect with general lack of reward. 4 chests mainly used for wondrous enchantment hunting for crushing an army.

Breaking the ranks - Punishment for use of tactics and intelligence and only 2 chests if you hit the gong at each step. I am just glad that wards can be dispelled, otherwise this quest would be run even less.

Break in the Ice - Reminds me why the secret door change was a bad idea. End fight progression is annoying.

Lines of Supply - Requires coordinated effort targeted and good communication to get 3 chests. End boss is an annoying heap of hitpoints.

General Wheloon - AI awareness in slayer area frequently causes pileups of 10-12 enemies about 50%-70% are ranged that have to be run down and act as time sinks. Poison traps add to the annoyance as the emplacers don't have a concentration check. Shadow beholders are a massive time sink that can disrupt a run to a quest and drain guild buff timers to where groups will look for something else (for darkly and hunt mainly). Named loot only at the end iirc encourages ignoring everything else.

Army of Shadow - Nightcrawler and reaching the quest (sudden enemy pileup and timed rares that appear when you intend to run the quest). Shadow AI walking through players and encouraging chase then teleporting. Fool me once...

Mirror - Apart from the general love of the inferno of the damned mechanism (my regular group requires me to drag them through inferno on principle). The fact that auras/archons reset doesn't help. The red label assassin and boss fight are a novelty on the first run, but just become annoying afterwards. The end result of the assassin fight is a narrative turnoff. The beholder punishing strategy is another. The prevalence of mimics makes random chest finding a time sink to where they will just become overlooked as there is a 90% chance of mimic. This discourages flower sniffing, which is what you should be encouraging.

Hunt - Whirly chain and sudden -20 wisdom from howls syndrome.

Friends - Rubbernecking pace and use of the word Bumpkin. 4 chests.

Lesson - Punishment/tradeoff decisions make this quest less favorable especially on the random scene where there is no coordination among PCs, typically around 20 slayer enemies right around the entrance dissuading reaching the quest (even from harvest hall start). Combination causes runner's remorse.

Additionally, since Commendations are the lynch pin and tied to end reward. The goal of quest runners is to get through quests as fast as possible. That eliminates optionals for most LFM posters. Additionally, as named items have been ruled subpar and only appear in end chests, less momentum to run optionals and thus quests have less time spent on them.

----

EVon3 has the advantages of good experience, 9 chests (which give a chance at seals so casual ESOS/Epic ingredient farming and general loot to build up guild and cash levels). Throwing mud on the popular daughter will not have the effect you hope to achieve. When rusted had its XP dinged, people still farmed it at the same pace. I am sure that it is a daily EE commendation farm for some. For the ugly daughters, off bravery epic TR grind only makes them uglier and will do so. Lack of Bravery Bonus and first time boosts causes a double take and runner's remorse.

Ivan_Milic
01-09-2014, 06:54 AM
Can someone explain why are optional dragons and giants in ee tor giving me 0 xp?

Nédime
01-09-2014, 06:59 AM
There's still Wizzking.
Enorm is a joke regarding difficulty, group can split for quicker completion, good number of chests, huge xp from optionals, decent quest xp. We run this daily with von3 (dillutes boreness :D).

Yalinaa
01-09-2014, 08:54 AM
Yeah, there are exploits to cheese some of the boss fights. That doesn't make them any less enjoyable for the people who do them properly.

Dunno, is that an exploit standing somewhere, away from mobs? Like in Breaking the ranks, you just stay away from spawns and pull them. Yeah, I saw some shiradi casters ran to mobs and nuke them, but man, they are already using the biggest exploit in game to cheese any fight.:)
Yeah, I enjoy to blitz the **** out of mobs or clean everything around with an epic fury moment, as shiradi sorcerers surely enjoy the 30-40k damages or more, but I'm not calling other people's strategies to make fights easier an exploit or cheesing.:)

arminius
01-09-2014, 08:54 AM
There's still Wizzking.
Enorm is a joke regarding difficulty, group can split for quicker completion, good number of chests, huge xp from optionals, decent quest xp. We run this daily with von3 (dillutes boreness :D).

All this does is bring up my main problem with the Von3 nerf.

SOMETHING will always be the easiest xp per minute and that something will always have people gravitate toward it. Are you (Turbine) just going to keep nerfing the top quest no matter what it is, every update, for years? You took multiple whacks at Impossible Demands and Rusted Blades until you finally forced us to abandon it, right into the arms of Von3. Now, if Wiz King is next, is that due for a nerf in Update 22? What will get the nerf in Update 23? Come on, you've got the charts, you can plan out your nerfs for the next 2 years now.

You can play this stupid game of whack a mole until every quest grants the exact same xp, or just let the players play. Unfortunately, I know the answer to that dilemma.

maddmatt70
01-09-2014, 09:07 AM
You mean jump up to safe spot and range Karleth in Thrill? Running invis in Mirror Darkly? Stay at barrier in Tracker's trap and range boss? And so on... Yeah, big, big challenges.:)

No one forces anyone to employ cheese like you suggest. There are/were plenty of cheese int he old content as well. Shrug. Personally I melee fight karleth in thrill, stay visible in Mirror Darkly, run up and fight the melee in Tracker's trap. You see I choose to actually play the game I pay for rather then looks for ways to avoid the game. I kind of wonder why people that cheese out DDO even play. I figure that they usually quit rather quickly and move onto something else.

lyrecono
01-09-2014, 09:08 AM
So pork chops ....snipped
good post +1
All makes sence.


There's still Wizzking.
Enorm is a joke regarding difficulty, group can split for quicker completion, good number of chests, huge xp from optionals, decent quest xp. We run this daily with von3 (dillutes boreness :D).

don't give turbine a next target

as for Knockback, we "apriciate" your attempt to repair the damage your team did with U19, though it only adresses a small part of the overal problems with forgoten realms quests.
Are you aware and at least considering adressing those issues?

Are you aware that von 3 aleviates the pain of forced running in of destinies due to the ETR system your team implemented. what are you doing in return for this problem?
Will you allow us to gain exp for them whille being in our prefered ED?

Can we get an awnser to that?

JOTMON
01-09-2014, 09:09 AM
Hello everyone! We're planning another round of quest XP adjustments for Update 21, and we'd like to get your thoughts.

We've been listening to your feedback, so this time around we're looking specifically at epic quests. The exact details are still somewhat fluid, but I can definitely say we've increased the experience for 17 quests. Those quests are:

• Chains of Flame (Epic only)
• Trial By Fury (Epic only)
• The Druid's Curse (Epic only)
• Thorn and Paw (Epic only)
• Outbreak (Epic only)
• In The Belly of the Beast (Epic only)
• The House of Death Undone (Epic only)
• The Tracker's Trap (both Epic and Heroic)
• What Goes Up (both Epic and Heroic)
• Breaking the Ranks (both Epic and Heroic)
• A Break in the Ice (both Epic and Heroic)
• Lines of Supply (both Epic and Heroic)
• Army of Shadow (both Epic and Heroic)
• Through a Mirror Darkly (both Epic and Heroic)
• The Thrill of the Hunt (both Epic and Heroic)
• Friends in Low Places (both Epic and Heroic)
• A Lesson in Deception (both Epic and Heroic)

We’re also planning to reduce the XP for one quest (on Epic only):

• Jungle of Khyber (Epic only)

Our goal is to get the XP numbers more in line with how long it takes to actually complete a quest. Some of the adjustments are minor - 6% more base XP for A Lesson in Deception, for example. Many of the changes are quite substantial. Ten of the quests have had their base XP raised by more than 20%. What Goes Up has had its base XP changed by ... Well, let's not ruin the surprise. Let's just say it's a nice, impressive number.

I don't see [insert quest name here] in this list. Does that mean that quest isn't going to be adjusted?

Just because a quest isn't listed here doesn't mean its XP won't be tweaked either up or down in a future release, or even for Update 21. We are definitely planning on more rounds of XP adjustments further on down the road.

For some quests we're just waiting for the right time to make the changes. For example, we'll be adjusting the Heroic XP in Three Barrel Cove when we add Epic mode to that area.

For other quests we're evaluating what the right fix is. Should we adjust the base XP? Change the optional XP? Alter the contents of the quest itself? Or some combination of the three? Given the sheer number of unique quests in DDO, it will be a while before can we give every one the full attention it deserves.


Why is this happening now? Why weren't these XP values changed earlier?

As PurpleFooz explained in the fall (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/427517-Quest-XP-Changes-for-Update-20?p=5126181&viewfull=1#post5126181), we only recently got the ability to fine-tune XP - Epic XP in particular. We also wanted to give people time to get familiar with the Shadowfell Conspiracy quests before we started changing their XP values.


Don't you think you should change [insert quest here]?

If you have ideas for which specific quests should be adjusted (or not adjusted) and why, this thread is the perfect place to talk about it. Please use this thread to discuss!

Knockback
Senior Content Designer

All the Quests you listed do need to be re-evaluated.. the ratio of difficulty to XP sucks... ES challenges are better XP than most of the quests out there.

I could see the Von3 nerf coming after the whinefest..
Too bad.. this likely means the end of Von3 except to flag for the raid, once you are done screwing the XP in that one.

Underdark explorer sucks. its a big area widely dispersed and the XP to time ratio discourages anyone from spending any time down there.
Rares are too infrequent(dragon in particular) and too far from ports to make them worth any effort to pursue.
Loot in chests in the underdark is just subpar random junk and generally not even worth looting... which is sad coming from me as I am a loot hoarder.. all my loot is precious... my precious....


I am sure you have a list somewhere that can be sorted by most run/least run... and spend some time trying to find out why no one is running the ones on the bottom of the list.
Like Titan.. Titan has been broken for I don't know how long and the XP still sucks

Other quest chains suck because of scrappy named loot like Wheloon.. this has become a run once for favor and move on.. also hate the annoying video card lagfest caused by the annoying overly done purple haze... just saying...


XP differential from EN/EH to EE is pathetic... EE requires you to be on your game and focussed and is not XP rewarded.
Everyone just farms EN/EH in off destinies with whatever group shows up for XP.

You have a lot of work to do.. hopefully you will do some good in this rebalancing instead of just peeving off the players like all those that have screwed with quests before you...

Eldest_Dragon
01-09-2014, 09:12 AM
My other suggestion would be that you consider future changes to Optional XP. If you want people to enjoy all of the dungeons which you go through a massive amount of work designing, dont just buff the end reward which encourages people to stealth through and go for dungeon ransack.

Buff the optionals. Buff the rewards / drops in optional chests. Encourage the full exploration of dungeons. Then we get to decide whether to zerg or whether to explore. Both options should provide solid XP / min.


I completely agree with this. Buffing the XP and loot drops of time-consuming optionals would really enhance the experience of players who enjoy full exploration of quests.

Many of my guild members argue over whether to zerg through quests for completion XP and end loot (Trial By Fury and House of Death Undone really stick out in my mind) or to go slowly and hit up every optional. With Trial in mind, it's really not worth it for most players to get all 10 jewels - in the time it takes to get 7% of the base XP, you could run the whole quest again. Optional chests in most quests only drop vendor trash. Let's try to stay true to the "pen and paper" feel of D&D and reward players who invest the time in completing optionals.
It would also be great to buff the XP of older epics - most people only ever run them if they need a seal/shard. I'm glad to see Chains of Flame on the list (probably the most unrewarding epic quest out there), but the Red Fens and some of the Sentinels pack are pretty lame XP.

Finally, I agree that the difference between EH and EE is broken. In the case of Von3, I completely understand why the EN and EH XP need to be nerf'd, but here is a case where the devs can reward players for playing on EE. Even Von3 on EE is a more significant time investment when compared to EH. Permanently boosting the Comms for completing EE wouldn't ruin the game either. It would also encourage EE runs and as somebody said earlier in the thread, Comms turn the end reward list into "things we can't have if we ever want to ETR/ITR."

RTFM
01-09-2014, 09:13 AM
You know when the game becomes a flat [xp per min is all the same whatever you run] game, its really really boring.

There is so much xp required for a new toon today (let's not even discuss a new account), I think it would be wise to leave some xp grind quests in epic for those toons (and new players).

Hills and valleys are much more interesting than very flat plains.....................




We’re also planning to reduce the XP for one quest (on Epic only):

• Jungle of Khyber (Epic only)

Our goal is to get the XP numbers more in line with how long it takes to actually complete a quest. Some of the adjustments are minor - 6% more base XP for A Lesson in Deception, for example. Many of the changes are quite substantial. Ten of the quests have had their base XP raised by more than 20%. What Goes Up has had its base XP changed by ... Well, let's not ruin the surprise. Let's just say it's a nice, impressive number.

Sarzor
01-09-2014, 09:38 AM
As many others have said, the problem is the lack of Coms.

Last ETR, including having some Coms leftover from a previous life, I reached cap long before finishing my coms. I had no pot running, and only hit VON3 a few times towards the start of the epic levels, so I could level up to get to the minimum level for some quests (seriously, the level minus four thing is stupid for areas such as Gianthold). I stuck with EEs where I was able, which was generally later levels (or had someone to carry me), and still I sat at cap for a while farming commendations forever.

I understand the desire to make it more difficult than 'I reach xp cap and have enough coms' but even the ratio is far too far out of whack from reality.

My suggestion is one (or both) of the following:
1) Keep in place the doubling of Coms from late 2013. Or at least raise the rate from where it is. The number is way too low.
2) Lower the need from 4200. Seriously, too high.

Gljosh
01-09-2014, 09:43 AM
Currently I pretty much just run the 3 Epic Sagas that have Pre MoTu, the CiTW Flag chain, and High Road as the quests. Those 23 quests give me 3 Saga end rewards to add XP to off destinies. I used to run slayer and explorer quite a bit, but the name of the game in Epics is COMMS, so other XP reduces the XP/Com ratio. I have not run Shadowfall on Epic, I run it on Heroic and get the favor/TP, the quests are too long and take too long to run to (compare them to the CitW chain, High Road, and Druid Deep). I run Von 3 for the XP, vendor trash, and a small amount of COMMS. Maybe instead of XP adjustments make some Comm adjustments OR add the Heart Acorns to Saga end rewards.

Stonemerge
01-09-2014, 09:45 AM
On my server and in my timezone it is hard to fill a pug.

I usually start a VoN3 on ehard and within 5 mins it will fill. Practically the only quest where that happens. Nice XP, Loot, soloable if needed ... and a great zergfest ... i like my daily runs ... best way to fill out offtoons' epicdestinies.

If the XP nerf is slighty, then its still ok ... i can pug it.

But if you half the xp, then many players will not run it on a daily base. The Pug Scene has dwindled enough - please be careful what you do with eVoN3 - dont kill the quest.

Teh_Troll
01-09-2014, 09:46 AM
Also, you're finishing quest faster at lvl28 than at 20, so you're better to level fast and farm comms with most powerful character possible, instead of some lowbie gimp.

It's amazing how few people get that . . .

Buffyanne
01-09-2014, 09:46 AM
Next, you are shooting a bit of socialization that is going on that used to go on in Shroud where groups intermingle based on when they have run the quest. This causes people to meet and get used to new people, which will cause more grouping in the future as more people have a basic idea of what each other can do.
.

And this too. What happens when I want to just play some DDO for a couple hours, no guildies on, ok I can throw up a PUG for EH VON3. I ship buff and people are already joining, as we start the quest more people join while in progress. You go through, kill some stuff get some loot. Guys want to do a EN? Sure everyone says. Repeat pattern, you are getting to know who you are playing with, commenting on builds, etc. After that, want to run a EH VON4? Three or more people usually are in for that too. So VON3 has just got together a random group of people for a few quests, good times and around 250k xp. Everyone enjoyed their ddo experience and felt like they accomplished something.

Now let's look at a shadowfall example. Post quest.....wait. wait. wait. Set off into zone, fight thru pretty difficult mobs just to get to the quest, none of which are easy to get to. Start the quest solo, its a slog fest. Two people join 15 mins in, can't find the quest, eventually drop. Eventually get to the end of the quest (lesson in deception here) and am penalized for using the shrine. Beat the boss and take my 35k which took me about an hour when you consider the time spent waiting for a party to form, making my way to the quest and completing the quest. Does that sound like something I would do again?

Or a Stormhorns example. Now I do love the explorer area for the Stormhorns, but that should be something you flower sniff solo or with a friend that is interested in doing that. For getting to quests? Awful. In primetime put together a full group to do the stormhorns chain, all motivated players, well geared TRs looking for xp, loot and fun. Did the trackers trap, easy to find bleh quest. Did Lines of Supply, great quest, everyone had lots of fun, discussion over loot drop capes. Rebuffed. Set off for break in the ice or breaking the ranks. 45 minutes later of not getting to the quest 4 of the players had dropped. Sure, the two remaining got the north teleport but if you were to run a group again what's that matter if the other 4 players don't have the port? They have to make the 45 minute trek out?

Only one of these scenarions remotely appeals to a casual gaming session.

Eth
01-09-2014, 09:48 AM
That doesn't work. Example: A good party can complete inferno of the damned in less than five minutes. I doubt that the average completion time is anywhere close to that.

So? You get more xp/min if you complete a quest faster. What a surprise.

With enough data the average will give you a pretty good estimate what the base xp of every quest should look like to make every quest roughly the same xp/min. Of course there will always be people that complete quests super fast. Good for them then, more xp/min.
That's not different in any way from the current situation.
But the goal should be to make every quest a good choice regarding xp/min.

Ancient
01-09-2014, 09:51 AM
I know this may be absurd,

It was, yet you went there anyways.

Powerhungry
01-09-2014, 09:55 AM
By raising the experience in epic quests means characters will level faster and have even less time to earn commendations of valor with each life. By lowering the comms to exp ratio players will have to farm even more while capped or buy even more hearts from the store. Every epic player knows the 4200 comms is way to high and this will only exacerbate this issue.

Eth
01-09-2014, 09:55 AM
And how do you determine which quests takes longer to walk?

For example, I can get to WGU in less than 2 minutes with just 30% striding (not counting loading screens, as they're different for everyone), but there are people that takes 5 or more.

Also, someone said that belly takes few minutes of running. Indeed, I saw quite few people lost in underdark, but for me, it takes longer to run from eveninstar well to underdark portal, than from portal to quest entrance.

It would be really hard to balance time spent at wilderness to quest XP, especially, that while far from entrance some quests are close to each other.

For epic lvls? 30% striding. Most direct way. Shortcut teleports included (except those paid with astral shards). Measure the time. Translate into xp/min. Done.

Stonemerge
01-09-2014, 09:58 AM
What you need to change, if you want us to run those quest is the reachability of the quests. They have to be less than 2 minutes and at worst at 2 loading screen from the Guild Ship.

agreed 100%

i play GH 1 time per life ... to much running around

i play 3rd ES chain 1 time per life ... i usually need an hour to find the quests

i play Menech 1 time per life ... running

i play Rusted daily ... but the other 2, 1 time per life - running

-

but eVoN - daily, Snitch - daily, Tide - daily, LoD daily ... shorter quests without running 20 mins until im near the quest entrance

FranOhmsford
01-09-2014, 10:05 AM
There is ONE Quest in this game that I'd like to see Nerfed XP Wise - And yes I know I'm gonna get flak for this BUT:

SHADOW CRYPT!!!

Maybe a First time Per Account XP Boost could be added for Quests like this when the possibility of your 1st run taking forever makes it a good idea to give out a &$£"load of XP.
BUT
This quest is STILL Farmed to Death {On 8 Gear runs so NOT for the Loot either!} because it's XP is simply INSANE!

The only difficult part is the Vamp Himself {And then Only if you have 6 Melees - And NO DR Breakers!}.


Suggestion:

-NERF the Base XP by 33%!
-Add 25% Base XP Boost to 12 Gear Optional!
-Up the Drop Rate on Named Items to Sane Numbers!
-And IF Two {or more} Rooms are activated at the Same time APPLY HARRIED DEBUFF!!!


Actually this Last Point should be considered in quests like Wiz King too - Might FINALLY Stop the Solo a Tower Cr@p!!!


There are other anomalies BUT Shadow Crypt really takes the Cake as the Most Insane XP Quest in the game!

As for Other Quests:

At Lvl 7-8 we have a Number of High BASE XP F2P Quests like:
Gwylan's Stand
Tear of Dhakaan
Stormcleave Outpost

Then we have a Quest that is just as long as these but is nowhere near as popular:
Caverns of Korromar

Caverns has very Low BASE XP for it's duration YET makes up for this with a LOT of Easy to get {and NOT REALLY...} Optional XP in it!

Boost Caverns BASE XP by say 10%
AND
Nerf the BASE XP of Gwylan's, Tear and Stormcleave WHILE Boosting their Optional XP so as to make Shortcutting thru them less Popular!


At Lvl 6:
-Redwillow's Ruins could do with maybe a 10% BASE XP Boost

At Lvl 10-11:
-Chamber of Rahmat and Offering of Blood are BOTH the Wrong Level in the Compendium!
You did it with Cabal for One!
Now do it for Other Quests!
Move CoRahmat to Lvl 11 along with the REST of the Sands Walkups!
AND
Move OoB to Lvl 12 along with CoF and Wiz King!!!!!

Also Chamber of Rahmat and Chamber of Kourush have absolutely terrible XP - Add a 50% BASE XP Boost for Clearing Optionals!

BTW The Gnolls at the start of these quests are by far the hardest part - Does there REALLY have to be quite so many Casters {and Healers} amongst them?


At Lvl 15-16:
OK Lords of Dust is NOT a Lvl 16 Quest!!!
AND
In the Flesh is Way too Difficult relatively to it's "Supposed" Level!!!

Swap these two around for Goodness Sake!!!!!

Move Lords of Dust to Lvl 15 Base
Move In the Flesh to Lvl 16 Base

No Need to Change ANYTHING in these quests APART from their Lvl!!!!!

Also:
-Reduce the Hezrou Respawn Spam in Spinner of Shadows - It gets Ridiculous at times and Seems Random too!
-I do Like Random Traps BUT Beyond the Rift takes it to Extremes!
Sometimes there's NO SpellWards in there at ALL!
Sometimes they're Everywhere!
I haven't seen the one by the 1st Shrine {2nd Part of Quest} since the week the quest came out!


FINALLY
--------

Nerfing or Buffing Base XP or Buffing Optional XP is OK BUT The Biggest Issue for Me with Quest XP in this game IS Lvl based!

We have a HUGE amount of Lvl 2-5 Quests Currently - Many of Which are simply the Wrong Level for the Current Game!

The Solo Quests should ALL be Moved to Lvl 1 {And optionally also moved to Korthos!}

Butcher's Path, Stealthy Repo and Garrison's Pack could do with being Upgraded to Lvl 3

Swiped Signet, Sacred Helm and Pt 1 of STK Should be Upgraded to Lvl 4

Proof is in the Poison, Freshen the Air and Irestone Inlet feel like Lvl 5 Quests

Phiarlan Carnival could be moved to Lvl 6 in it's ENTIRETY so long as The Snitch was Made Significantly Harder on Heroic!

Delera's Pt 1 would also Benefit from a Move to Lvl 6 so as to be better aligned with the rest of the Chain.

Lair of Summoning and Chamber of Insanity could both be Upgraded to Lvl 6 too!

Waterworks Pt 3 and 4 could be downgraded to Lvl 3

Catacombs Final Quest could be downgraded to Lvl 3

The Depths of Doom and Discord could be downgraded to Lvl 4

Halls of STK could be downgraded to Lvl 4

Dead Predators could be downgraded to Lvl 5

Tangleroot Gorge
----------------
Upgrade Pt 1&2 to Lvl 4
Downgrade Pt 9&10 to Lvl 6
For a 3 Level Range rather than a FIVE Lvl Range!!!
{Btw The Same thing could be done For Sorrowdusk too!!!}


AND For Goodness Sake Upgrade the Max Level for Cerulean Hills Slayer to Lvl 5!

zaphear
01-09-2014, 10:06 AM
You couldn't increase Wheloon enough to make it desirable.. It's one of the most, if not THE most, painful chains to do in the game. All the mobs in there have cheap nobrainer annoying difficulty checks, uncurable howler quills are a joke, Shadar Kai chains of annoying death are another. And the Exp, even if increased 100% is STILL abysmal.

Could really care less about VoN3, it does need to be reduced. It's ridiculous how much experience that quest gives for how easy it is.

zaphear
01-09-2014, 10:08 AM
There is ONE Quest in this game that I'd like to see Nerfed XP Wise - And yes I know I'm gonna get flak for this BUT:

SHADOW CRYPT!!!

Maybe a First time Per Account XP Boost could be added for Quests like this when the possibility of your 1st run taking forever makes it a good idea to give out a &$£"load of XP.
BUT
This quest is STILL Farmed to Death {On 8 Gear runs so NOT for the Loot either!} because it's XP is simply INSANE!

The only difficult part is the Vamp Himself {And then Only if you have 6 Melees - And NO DR Breakers!}.


Suggestion:

-NERF the Base XP by 33%!
-Add 25% Base XP Boost to 12 Gear Optional!
-Up the Drop Rate on Named Items to Sane Numbers!
-And IF Two {or more} Rooms are activated at the Same time APPLY HARRIED DEBUFF!!!


Actually this Last Point should be considered in quests like Wiz King too - Might FINALLY Stop the Solo a Tower Cr@p!!!


There are other anomalies BUT Shadow Crypt really takes the Cake as the Most Insane XP Quest in the game!

As for Other Quests:

At Lvl 7-8 we have a Number of High BASE XP F2P Quests like:
Gwylan's Stand
Tear of Dhakaan
Stormcleave Outpost

Then we have a Quest that is just as long as these but is nowhere near as popular:
Caverns of Korromar

Caverns has very Low BASE XP for it's duration YET makes up for this with a LOT of Easy to get {and NOT REALLY...} Optional XP in it!

Boost Caverns BASE XP by say 10%
AND
Nerf the BASE XP of Gwylan's, Tear and Stormcleave WHILE Boosting their Optional XP so as to make Shortcutting thru them less Popular!


At Lvl 6:
-Redwillow's Ruins could do with maybe a 10% BASE XP Boost

At Lvl 10-11:
-Chamber of Rahmat and Offering of Blood are BOTH the Wrong Level in the Compendium!
You did it with Cabal for One!
Now do it for Other Quests!
Move CoRahmat to Lvl 11 along with the REST of the Sands Walkups!
AND
Move OoB to Lvl 12 along with CoF and Wiz King!!!!!

Also Chamber of Rahmat and Chamber of Kourush have absolutely terrible XP - Add a 50% BASE XP Boost for Clearing Optionals!

BTW The Gnolls at the start of these quests are by far the hardest part - Does there REALLY have to be quite so many Casters {and Healers} amongst them?


At Lvl 15-16:
OK Lords of Dust is NOT a Lvl 16 Quest!!!
AND
In the Flesh is Way too Difficult relatively to it's "Supposed" Level!!!

Swap these two around for Goodness Sake!!!!!

Move Lords of Dust to Lvl 15 Base
Move In the Flesh to Lvl 16 Base

No Need to Change ANYTHING in these quests APART from their Lvl!!!!!

Also:
-Reduce the Hezrou Respawn Spam in Spinner of Shadows - It gets Ridiculous at times and Seems Random too!
-I do Like Random Traps BUT Beyond the Rift takes it to Extremes!
Sometimes there's NO SpellWards in there at ALL!
Sometimes they're Everywhere!
I haven't seen the one by the 1st Shrine {2nd Part of Quest} since the week the quest came out!


FINALLY
--------

Nerfing or Buffing Base XP or Buffing Optional XP is OK BUT The Biggest Issue for Me with Quest XP in this game IS Lvl based!

We have a HUGE amount of Lvl 2-5 Quests Currently - Many of Which are simply the Wrong Level for the Current Game!

The Solo Quests should ALL be Moved to Lvl 1 {And optionally also moved to Korthos!}

Butcher's Path, Stealthy Repo and Garrison's Pack could do with being Upgraded to Lvl 3

Swiped Signet, Sacred Helm and Pt 1 of STK Should be Upgraded to Lvl 4

Proof is in the Poison, Freshen the Air and Irestone Inlet feel like Lvl 5 Quests

Phiarlan Carnival could be moved to Lvl 6 in it's ENTIRETY so long as The Snitch was Made Significantly Harder on Heroic!

Delera's Pt 1 would also Benefit from a Move to Lvl 6 so as to be better aligned with the rest of the Chain.

Lair of Summoning and Chamber of Insanity could both be Upgraded to Lvl 6 too!

Waterworks Pt 3 and 4 could be downgraded to Lvl 3

Catacombs Final Quest could be downgraded to Lvl 3

The Depths of Doom and Discord could be downgraded to Lvl 4

Halls of STK could be downgraded to Lvl 4

Dead Predators could be downgraded to Lvl 5

Tangleroot Gorge
----------------
Upgrade Pt 1&2 to Lvl 4
Downgrade Pt 9&10 to Lvl 6
For a 3 Level Range rather than a FIVE Lvl Range!!!
{Btw The Same thing could be done For Sorrowdusk too!!!}


AND For Goodness Sake Upgrade the Max Level for Cerulean Hills Slayer to Lvl 5!

Holy cow.. really? You hate solo'ers don't you? People don't play YOUR playstyle so screw them huh. Why stop the solo towers for Wiz King? It's extremely efficient and an enjoyable quest designed just like that.

danotmano1998
01-09-2014, 10:09 AM
1. Please fix commendation drops. Either reduce the number required for a heart or increase the number awarded from quests.

2. Make the teleporter guy in wheloon able to teleport you to the quest FREE after the first time you do them.
That wilderness area is painful in so many ways.

3. Increase every raid's xp significantly.

Thanks for increasing the xp in shadowfell and the druids curse finally!
Von3? Meh. Put the values back to what they were pre-xp rebalance and it'll be fine.


Thanks for your communication, Knockback.

Teh_Troll
01-09-2014, 10:10 AM
LOLz . . . tripling the XP of Shadowfail won't make people run those quests any more.

Explorer areas are too much of a pain. Stormhorns is too big, Wheloon gets quadruple spawns and lags out entire parties. They are too difficult to run fast, if at all, in off-destinies needed for the ridiculous karma farming on EE.

Another dumb idea.

CaptainSpacePony
01-09-2014, 10:14 AM
So, here's what I'd like the devs to do:

1) Add up all the xp someone would get from running all the epic quests on EN and EH and taking xp as saga rewards:

2) Adjust epic xp and make it so that that number = 6,600,000...

I disagree. There should not be such a strong relationship between content and advancement. Although you didn't say it, I could infer from your suggestion that as more content is released, all XP should be reduced to that there's just enough to cap.

Uidolon
01-09-2014, 10:16 AM
optionals should be boosted:

why=zerging should leave the option if to run the optionals or skip them up to the players as both options should give roughly the same amount of exp. this enables the player to play as he wants to.

my own point of view is that its basic economics a matter of balancing incentives to give players the most amount of choice. doing optionals as a standard right now as i calculate it on a average more then cuts the exp/time in half or more. the choice in quests if to do optionals should be based on if you enjoy that quest design not on a math calculation.

this being said id like to caution you that most quests are not suited to become the new "flavor of the month 1once-a-day quest" like von3 was there is always going to be such a quest if you don't wildly alter the exp to cap you have basically made sure of this with your game design.
while players should be given the choice on what quests to run to get exp certain quests are better designed to be zerged*1.



*1 zerged= way of running a quest for its exp in a manner close to perfection in relation to exp/time since repeated so many times

Acaios
01-09-2014, 10:21 AM
if you nerf the xp of von3 too much, imo people will turn to the next thing for quick daily xp, which probably is von5. it`s been done to some extension in my server (argo), but not too often. but if that`s the next big thing, then i see that people will prefer to never run von6, so that they`ll be always offtimer for their daily von5s. and since you cant redbox von5 like adq1, you`ll be killing von6 raid, one of the few raids that is being run kinda regularly.

i agree too about the coms not being offered in the end reward list. make them drop in the end chests, just like epic tokens do -even if they cant be shared between players if u want to discourage dualboxing farming. also, if 4200 is a good number for you, for eTR, keeping in mind that it`ll stay the same when it`ll be required the toon to be lvl 30, i`d propose that 4200 should be then. and now that the cap is 28, to be reduced to 3000-3500.

i also agree with the guy who wrote about xp distribution between quest and optionals to be like tear of dhakaan.

also something needs to be done about the dizziness from transition between standar colors and purple environment in WGU. and perhaps the duration too, coz for 2-3 seconds you dont see where you`re going. resulting to potential deaths from mobs if you stay still or falling from the cliffs if you keep moving around.

edit: a guild portal/planescaler should be added for e-star

happybaby
01-09-2014, 10:22 AM
You can zerg for your XP. Someone else can do a full explore for their XP. Both should be totally viable options.

+1

CaptainSpacePony
01-09-2014, 10:23 AM
Blasting through level 20 quests have more to do with toons with maxxed out destinies than level.

Try running EH VON3 with a fresh group of level 20s vs a group of level 20s decked out in ED. Guess which group is going to blast through everything?

Sure, it's great fun for you to blitz your way to level 28. Sadly, the new guy without any ED experience basically has to pike his way to 28 watching others blitz and furyshot everything.. that's just wrong.

It's sad, but ED's should be level banded. Epic level questing is just so messed up unbalanced thanks to EDs.

Very true, but that boat sailed a long time ago.

Cordovan
01-09-2014, 10:25 AM
Thank you, everyone, for your feedback. Keep it up! Just chiming in to say I've now read all of the posts to this point. Much appreciated.

CaptainSpacePony
01-09-2014, 10:34 AM
Hi,
...
What Goes Up is a good one, but seriously, putting the shadowfell effect on top of a white surface at the end fight? I don't like it when it becomes a hassle to complete a quest because some game designer thought it was a good idea that I not be able to see what I'm doing. Tell me again why you are making it unpleasant and uncomfortable to play your game, because I don't understand.

On top of that, I wonder if it has occurred to someone at home office that building the current amount of inaccessibility of these quests into the wilderness area design... Seems like that might be shooting yourself in the foot.
...
Thanks.

A couple of important points there.

I don't like what goes up because I can't see anything in the end fight. I'm told if I turn my video down it gets better. I haven't tried that because I don't want to and feel I shouldn't have to. A purely emotional response, but I play for fun and that is not fun for me.

I personally thing travel to quests is a good part of game design. BUT the travel hassle (time and difficulty) should be factored into the reward design (Loot, xp, comms, etc). This does not seem to be done in DDO. I also think travel design should be balanced. DDO has a LOT of no hassle to get to content. A lot of the Shadowfell expansion's content has a high hassle to get to factor. I personally think that was too much at one time.

Mryal
01-09-2014, 10:42 AM
This is all fine and good but.Why are we even discussing and rebalancing epic xp when the true xp bar for epic lives is not 0-6,600,000 exp, but 0 - 4200 comendations.When are we getting a rebalance to comendations, so that you dont have to get enough 'exp' to TR twice before you get 4200? Focus guys.focus

FranOhmsford
01-09-2014, 10:44 AM
Holy cow.. really? You hate solo'ers don't you? People don't play YOUR playstyle so screw them huh. Why stop the solo towers for Wiz King? It's extremely efficient and an enjoyable quest designed just like that.

You missed the Point!

I Solo all the time {yes with a Hireling!}.

I have NOTHING Against someone Soloing {with or without Hireling} Wiz King {Obviously this is the ONLY part of my post you actually read!}.

My Suggestion would simply cut out the Solo a Tower Cr@p!

You want to Solo all 3 Towers go right ahead!

Heck grab Ransack, Conquest and Ingenious while you're at it!!!

BUT

If you're gonna Group Up - GROUP UP!

It's NOT a Race!



Wiz King would be a GREAT Quest if the Devs had made it so you couldn't enter Tower 2 or 3 till the Previous Tower/s were Done!

As it is It's possibly my least favourite quest in the Game!

Simply because of the Elitism of the Be able to Solo a Tower or Don't Join LFMs that have been Ubiquitous for as long as I've been playing this game {Going on for 4 years now!}.


Heck I have characters who I know Could Solo Wiz King at Level on Elite BB - I Won't Join Solo a Tower LFMs though!


And I don't see why ignoring Ransack, Conquest, Ingenious etc. Should give NOT ONLY a Faster Completion BUT More XP too!!!!!

Running Two Quick Completions SHOULD NOT give as Much XP in ANY Quest as Grabbing EVERY Optional Does!


And yes I can see that the Be able to Solo a Tower LFMs would also start requesting you have Rogue/Arti Levels and KILL/SMASH Everything!!
SO
Simply Upping the Optional XP is NOT going to make the Difference!

So - Apply the Harried Debuff if TWO Rooms of Mobs {In different Towers} are Active at the Same time {No Matter HOW MANY Mobs are Active!}!!!


The Only reason Players fight for their right to "Solo in Groups" is because of the Meta-Game and their Knowledge of the Quests!

The Devs Simply CAN'T Randomise the Quests well enough to Stop this from Happening so other means of Keeping Parties together must be Looked at!


Soloists can always Solo - Heck I solo all the time myself!

But when I join {or make} a Party I'm NOT Looking to SOLO!

SilkofDrasnia
01-09-2014, 10:47 AM
No one forces anyone to employ cheese like you suggest. There are/were plenty of cheese int he old content as well. Shrug. Personally I melee fight karleth in thrill, stay visible in Mirror Darkly, run up and fight the melee in Tracker's trap. You see I choose to actually play the game I pay for rather then looks for ways to avoid the game. I kind of wonder why people that cheese out DDO even play. I figure that they usually quit rather quickly and move onto something else.

And most of us don't care how you play the important thing is that your having fun, isn't that the point? Maybe try it out sometime, stop caring how others are playing and having fun cause really it isn't really any of your business and nerfing other peoples fun for some kind of moral imperative like you seem to want to do is getting old, tedious and stupid.

Get you own circle of of like minded friends in game and play as you wish. Allow others to do the same instead of playing the forum "you should play my way" game.





But when I join {or make} a Party I'm NOT Looking to SOLO!

Use the lfm and put up your own with no zerging or flower sniffers only? Simple. This whole malarkey of trying to get people to play one specific way whether it's to zerg or not zerg needs to stop. There is no right way to play the game and trying to force people to play a way you "feel" is "right" is just wrong.

Have fun your way and let others have fun their way.

Lifespawn
01-09-2014, 10:50 AM
You missed the Point!

I Solo all the time {yes with a Hireling!}.

I have NOTHING Against someone Soloing {with or without Hireling} Wiz King {Obviously this is the ONLY part of my post you actually read!}.

My Suggestion would simply cut out the Solo a Tower Cr@p!

You want to Solo all 3 Towers go right ahead!

Heck grab Ransack, Conquest and Ingenious while you're at it!!!

BUT

If you're gonna Group Up - GROUP UP!

It's NOT a Race!



Wiz King would be a GREAT Quest if the Devs had made it so you couldn't enter Tower 2 or 3 till the Previous Tower/s were Done!

As it is It's possibly my least favourite quest in the Game!

Simply because of the Elitism of the Be able to Solo a Tower or Don't Join LFMs that have been Ubiquitous for as long as I've been playing this game {Going on for 4 years now!}.


Heck I have characters who I know Could Solo Wiz King at Level on Elite BB - I Won't Join Solo a Tower LFMs though!


And I don't see why ignoring Ransack, Conquest, Ingenious etc. Should give NOT ONLY a Faster Completion BUT More XP too!!!!!

Running Two Quick Completions SHOULD NOT give as Much XP in ANY Quest as Grabbing EVERY Optional Does!


And yes I can see that the Be able to Solo a Tower LFMs would also start requesting you have Rogue/Arti Levels and KILL/SMASH Everything!!
SO
Simply Upping the Optional XP is NOT going to make the Difference!

So - Apply the Harried Debuff if TWO Rooms of Mobs {In different Towers} are Active at the Same time {No Matter HOW MANY Mobs are Active!}!!!


The Only reason Players fight for their right to "Solo in Groups" is because of the Meta-Game and their Knowledge of the Quests!

The Devs Simply CAN'T Randomise the Quests well enough to Stop this from Happening so other means of Keeping Parties together must be Looked at!


Soloists can always Solo - Heck I solo all the time myself!

But when I join {or make} a Party I'm NOT Looking to SOLO!


no

I'd be all for randomized quests but i'm not looking to go slow through a dungeon i've run a bazillion times because people like you decided a group should do 1 tower at a time i simply won't run it and if they changed all the quests to be like that i simply wouldn't play.

Guanmagi-1
01-09-2014, 11:01 AM
LOLz . . . tripling the XP of Shadowfail won't make people run those quests any more.
Another dumb idea.

Quadrupling?

Vellrad
01-09-2014, 11:03 AM
Quadrupling?

Autocompletion.

Anything less will not suffice for teh_whine.

Teh_Troll
01-09-2014, 11:10 AM
Autocompletion.

Anything less will not suffice for teh_whine.

My very presence ensures an auto-completion. I just let you in once in a while so you can hjeal meh.

Teh_Troll
01-09-2014, 11:11 AM
Quadrupling?

Maybe - EE WGU should drop 200-300k and that's not unreasonable.

GoldyGopher
01-09-2014, 11:13 AM
Late to the Party...

Thank you for taking the time to communicate with us, we as a player base appreciate you giving us ample warning and time to discuss this with you. Even though it may not always seem that way it is greatly appreciated.


Hello everyone! We're planning another round of quest XP adjustments for Update 21, and we'd like to get your thoughts.

We've been listening to your feedback, so this time around we're looking specifically at epic quests. The exact details are still somewhat fluid, but I can definitely say we've increased the experience for 17 quests. Those quests are:

• Chains of Flame (Epic only)
• Trial By Fury (Epic only)
• The Druid's Curse (Epic only)
• Thorn and Paw (Epic only)
• Outbreak (Epic only)
• In The Belly of the Beast (Epic only)
• The House of Death Undone (Epic only)
• The Tracker's Trap (both Epic and Heroic)
• What Goes Up (both Epic and Heroic)
• Breaking the Ranks (both Epic and Heroic)
• A Break in the Ice (both Epic and Heroic)
• Lines of Supply (both Epic and Heroic)
• Army of Shadow (both Epic and Heroic)
• Through a Mirror Darkly (both Epic and Heroic)
• The Thrill of the Hunt (both Epic and Heroic)
• Friends in Low Places (both Epic and Heroic)
• A Lesson in Deception (both Epic and Heroic)

We’re also planning to reduce the XP for one quest (on Epic only):

• Jungle of Khyber (Epic only)

Our goal is to get the XP numbers more in line with how long it takes to actually complete a quest. Some of the adjustments are minor - 6% more base XP for A Lesson in Deception, for example. Many of the changes are quite substantial. Ten of the quests have had their base XP raised by more than 20%. What Goes Up has had its base XP changed by ... Well, let's not ruin the surprise. Let's just say it's a nice, impressive number.

I don't see [insert quest name here] in this list. Does that mean that quest isn't going to be adjusted?

Just because a quest isn't listed here doesn't mean its XP won't be tweaked either up or down in a future release, or even for Update 21. We are definitely planning on more rounds of XP adjustments further on down the road.

For some quests we're just waiting for the right time to make the changes. For example, we'll be adjusting the Heroic XP in Three Barrel Cove when we add Epic mode to that area.

For other quests we're evaluating what the right fix is. Should we adjust the base XP? Change the optional XP? Alter the contents of the quest itself? Or some combination of the three? Given the sheer number of unique quests in DDO, it will be a while before can we give every one the full attention it deserves.


Why is this happening now? Why weren't these XP values changed earlier?

As PurpleFooz explained in the fall (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/427517-Quest-XP-Changes-for-Update-20?p=5126181&viewfull=1#post5126181), we only recently got the ability to fine-tune XP - Epic XP in particular. We also wanted to give people time to get familiar with the Shadowfell Conspiracy quests before we started changing their XP values.


Don't you think you should change [insert quest here]?

If you have ideas for which specific quests should be adjusted (or not adjusted) and why, this thread is the perfect place to talk about it. Please use this thread to discuss!

Knockback
Senior Content Designer

As one of the original players asking for of Quest XP this is near and dear to my heart.

To me there are several problems with this philosophy of adjusting the base XP for these XP quests.
XP vs. Comms
Casual Play vs. Hard Core
XP vs. Difficulty
The amount of XP being discussed


Currently players will earn approximately 3200 on their road to 6,600,000; with the XP changes you are suggesting the number of Comms earned will drop by the same percentage as the XP is increased. A net increase of 10% XP that players will typically earn then the number of Comms earned will drop by same percentage 10% requiring players to spend more time running capped to earn Comms.

This not only affects players who are on the hamster wheel in improving characters but creates a greater degree of difficulty for the casual player in their attempt to keep up with the Jones as they will spend longer times earning comms and more time running capped looking for loot, as you make capped farming of loot more of a requirement in that case. I hope I explained that properly

As several posters have indicated their is little difference in the amount of XP earned between Hard and Elite Difficulty, in everyone's favorite quest VON3 there is a 6 percent increase in XP when selecting EE or EH for a quest that takes twice as long to complete, including filling the party. The difference in XP when moving from EN to EH is only 5% but the time it takes to complete the quest only increase marginally. If the XP difference from EN to EH is 5% than EH to EE should be 10%, at least.

If you look at a 6% more XP, well assuming a base XP of 17700, factoring in conquest Ransack, XP Shrine, Bonuses and other factors results in ~2,200 additional XP; to me this is just not a large enough increase. For the quests that you have listed you should be starting at 18% and going up.

Finally changing XP is not IMHO going to encourage players to run a more diverse selection of content, rather it will force players to play fewer quests because XP will become even less important as it is easier to earn. Again I hope that makes sense. Let me try it like this, if I can earn 6,600,00 XP by running ~120 quests. After this change I will earn 6,600,000 by running 104 quests instead of focusing on XP I will be focusing on Comms and which 104 quests (or repeating said quests daily) will earn me the most comms as the amount of comms earned will be more important than the XP.

As for what other quests, anything that has the word Epic, with the exception of VON3 and Chamber of Rayium probably will be on several player's list to get an XP buff.


We’re also planning to reduce the XP for one quest (on Epic only):

• Jungle of Khyber (Epic only)

Back at launch the Base XP for the Seal of Shan-to-kor series was 14,000 with bonuses those four quests were enough XP to move a character from fresh level 4 to level 5 (That XP based upon play in beta was substantially lowered when you could almost get to level 6).
Who remembers the XP in Prisoner of the Planes, being lowered from a base 7,500 to 5620 and further lowered to 4240. People still run these quests not a day goes by that there aren't dozens of LFMs up for these two quests. People will still run VON3, instead of waiting 5 minutes to see and LFM it may be 6 minutes (assuming it will be lowered back to U19 level). I suppose they could truly nerf the XP down to half of it's current XP. but would that affect the number of players running the quest substantially? Don't get me wrong I would be very disappointed however it a dang easy quest on hard for a sub 15 minute run with a bad pug.

As for not running Shadowfell quests, yes I hope the purple haze get fixed, yes I hope the loot gods fix the loot, but increasing the XP is the first step in making them more attractive to the player base to run; and IMHO it is the smallest step, but it is a step.
However complaining about the length of time to get to these quests, using my "Key to Eveningstar" and the north camp sites I can get in the What Goes up in under 4 minutes, I just don't get. How can you need 6, 7 or even 8 zone changes? And I am the king of complaining about the number of zone/teleports needed in DDO.

Guanmagi-1
01-09-2014, 11:16 AM
Thank you, everyone, for your feedback. Keep it up! Just chiming in to say I've now read all of the posts to this point. Much appreciated.

Please disregard posts that request further reduction of quest xp. Thanks!

FranOhmsford
01-09-2014, 11:19 AM
no

I'd be all for randomized quests but i'm not looking to go slow through a dungeon i've run a bazillion times because people like you decided a group should do 1 tower at a time i simply won't run it and if they changed all the quests to be like that i simply wouldn't play.

Says someone with a Feb 2006 Join Date!

So are all those people who over the years have harked back on these forums to when DDO was a GROUP Game Lying?


Heck I don't agree with those people at all - I actually enjoy being able to Solo as it's not always possible to group up AND I DON'T want to see DDO become a Game where you HAVE to Group up to Complete Quests {EXCEPT FOR END-GAME THAT IS!!!!!}.


When You Solo Wiz King you do each Tower in turn ANYWAY!
AND
I have no doubt that YOU can do those 3 Towers in the time it takes ME to do 1-1.5!

BUT You're moaning here about Time Requirements meaning you actually want to group with Other Soloists to make things faster.

WELL My Suggestion doesn't stop you from doing that at all!

It simply makes it a Less Popular OPTION!

patang01
01-09-2014, 11:23 AM
Dear Turbine.
I understand why you're changing Von 3 but you're again reacting to the crappy design you put in place and that people are trying to adjust too. Like when Rusted was run until peoples eyes bled. It was not because people love it, it was precisely because you designed a off destiny leveling for fate points hamster wheel. Just as people run specific heroic quests over and over because of the TR grind.

You lowering the XP of VON 3 doesn't change that the off destiny leveling is a terrible horrid design and that off destiny karma leveling is an abomination. It won't either change that the harper quests are boring and the xpack is terrible. You changing the XP in those will help, but it won't change that it slays me to run them over and over for another terrible design, Valor (the amount). I'm currently taking a break because the grind just wears me out. It's my third counting last year. I've never taken that many breaks previously.

Note - I didn't change the way I play and I don't grind the same quest over and over like some does, but the choices are poor, the systems mind numbing and your reaction misses the point. You clubbing VON 3 is like when you clubbed the challenge quest XP and Rusted. It removed an option for people who were reaction to the underlying issues with your systems. And those are now pretty much dead.

This won't change it. I welcome adjustment of XP but it doesn't change the foundation. You'll soon notice when someone finds another quest with great xp/minute and the daily churn of 3 of that quest will light up the LFM all day.

I hope you'll realize this before you're left with only those that love to work for their entertainment and become even more niche. I hate to move on, but I don't pay you to tell me how to like my gaming - I reward you for a great gaming experience. Hands on your heart and given your eroding player base - isn't it time you faced the dragon and changed the real issue with why players do easy XP/minute quests like VON 3 in the first place? Like the fact that it requires an insane 6 mill XP for Karma and that you've created the off destiny leveling system both for fate points and Karma XP?

You fix those and you correct what was always the driving force behind people levitating towards the VON 3s and the Rusted in the DDO world. I don't mind running all type of diverse quests because grinding one or two on a daily basis is boring. But it beats wading against a torrent of sewage that you created.

Thanks for asking for feedback and I hope you consider what I'm writing. Because as of now I have no real reason to keep grinding Epic reincarnations in the current system. And having finished fate points on one toon I do not want to repeat the misery on another. I tried to start on another guy but every time I start off destiny leveling I feel a dry heave come on and I feel sick to my stomach. It's a physical reaction to perhaps the most horrid system you've created. And I bet I'm not the only one that feels like that. You're adjustments are welcome - but it's not a remedy and I don't think it will retain your player base in the long run.

Livmo
01-09-2014, 11:30 AM
After reading all the posts and mulling it a bit, I do feel that there are 4 issues perhaps that cause folks to not run the others quests, xp, items, distance to quest, and purple haze.

Upon reflection I don't run the purple haze stuff because its hard on my eye and sometimes seems to get stuck on purple haze mode forever, long after the baddies are gone.

Also those 3 Stormhorn quests on the NE side of the map take forever to get to. To be honest I'm not going to pay or work the shard exchange to get there by short cut. I spend money on the game, but would not spend for that. When I do spend its on storage or adventure pack. I might buy cosmetic armor someday if it was avaialbe and there was lots of variety so I don't like every other toon in FR or Ebberron.

I do more VON3, because that's what others want to do. I don't mind. I like the quest allot. However guildies want to do that 1st each night before anything else. I like that its near the airship portal.

If you increase the XP and items on those quests you will still have problems with distance and the purple haze. I like the quests, the xp is low and the items meh and that doesn't bother me. My discouragment is lack of LFMs or trying to fill one, distance to quest, and purple haze.

hit_fido
01-09-2014, 11:40 AM
There is ONE Quest in this game that I'd like to see Nerfed XP Wise - And yes I know I'm gonna get flak for this BUT:

SHADOW CRYPT!!!


Shadow Crypt is easily one of the longest quests in the game when played by new players who are not aware of or do not use the Wiki or old forum posts to repeat "solutions" found by other players. If the intention is to have Turbine judge quest difficulty and XP based on what meta gaming information is available then that's one argument you can make re: Shadow Crypt and several other quests as well. But if the intention is to judge difficulty and XP based on how the quest is designed, there's no reason to lower Shadow Crypt XP.




-And IF Two {or more} Rooms are activated at the Same time APPLY HARRIED DEBUFF!!!


Actually this Last Point should be considered in quests like Wiz King too - Might FINALLY Stop the Solo a Tower Cr@p!!!


Suggestions like this are aimed only at punishing groups who efficiently divide up objectives. Do we punish or reward players who master content and then efficiently coordinate to complete said content after much prior repetition? I say reward, or at least do not punish by artificially damning groups that coordinate and split up objectives.

mutilador
01-09-2014, 11:40 AM
Says someone with a Feb 2006 Join Date!

So are all those people who over the years have harked back on these forums to when DDO was a GROUP Game Lying?


Heck I don't agree with those people at all - I actually enjoy being able to Solo as it's not always possible to group up AND I DON'T want to see DDO become a Game where you HAVE to Group up to Complete Quests {EXCEPT FOR END-GAME THAT IS!!!!!}.


When You Solo Wiz King you do each Tower in turn ANYWAY!
AND
I have no doubt that YOU can do those 3 Towers in the time it takes ME to do 1-1.5!

BUT You're moaning here about Time Requirements meaning you actually want to group with Other Soloists to make things faster.

WELL My Suggestion doesn't stop you from doing that at all!

It simply makes it a Less Popular OPTION!

Stop to ask to slow down the quests, crippling, spell wards, dungeon alert are stupid and annoying. If you dont like to zerg just dont group up with ppl that zerg.

Some ppl have ran those quests a million times and have no interest in flower sniffing. Stop to try ruin the game just cos you dont like to zerg.

Lifespawn
01-09-2014, 11:47 AM
Says someone with a Feb 2006 Join Date!

So are all those people who over the years have harked back on these forums to when DDO was a GROUP Game Lying?


Heck I don't agree with those people at all - I actually enjoy being able to Solo as it's not always possible to group up AND I DON'T want to see DDO become a Game where you HAVE to Group up to Complete Quests {EXCEPT FOR END-GAME THAT IS!!!!!}.


When You Solo Wiz King you do each Tower in turn ANYWAY!
AND
I have no doubt that YOU can do those 3 Towers in the time it takes ME to do 1-1.5!

BUT You're moaning here about Time Requirements meaning you actually want to group with Other Soloists to make things faster.

WELL My Suggestion doesn't stop you from doing that at all!

It simply makes it a Less Popular OPTION!

No i'm complaining about being forced to run each tower one at a time i don't solo wiz king for xp because it's only worth it to multitower

Believe it or not some people find it fun to run quests and find the most efficient ways to do so i just don't want 1 playstyle to make me have to play a certain way you want to group up and move together go for it but don't force me to do the same unless i can put a timer on how long you can be in a tower or room and you will just die if it takes too long.

Shorlong
01-09-2014, 11:54 AM
Dear Turbine.
I understand why you're changing Von 3 but you're again reacting to the crappy design you put in place and that people are trying to adjust too.

I love how everyone is talking like it's something you HAVE to be a part of. If you don't like, why do it? Is it a competition, do you have to be more powerful than everyone else? I'm not making fun, I honestly just don't get it.

mutilador
01-09-2014, 11:57 AM
And you guys have nothing better to do? Like fix bugs? Fix the stupid comms drop rate? Even better remove the comms for good so ppl can get loot for end rewards? The game is half broken, the lag is totally out of control, everyday more ppl leave the game than join it and you guys are worried about 1 decent quest? FIX THE GAME!

Karadon_II
01-09-2014, 12:00 PM
I'd prefer raising xp of optionals to reward thoroughness rather than zerging to the main objective.

This! In some cases the optionals can be tougher to do then the main quest and/or take almost half the time you're in the dungeon but the rewards are rarely commensurate with the effort. This goes for Epic and Heroic.

Teh_Troll
01-09-2014, 12:04 PM
I love how everyone is talking like it's something you HAVE to be a part of. If you don't like, why do it? Is it a competition, do you have to be more powerful than everyone else? I'm not making fun, I honestly just don't get it.

It's the point of playing DDO. The game becomes about making your characters more powerful.

After running through the content, what else is there? Most stuff is cool and awesome and you can geek-out about is . . . THE FIRST TIME YOU RUN THROUGH IT.

But after that? Once the thrill is gone? Pursuit of more power is really all that's left.

Seikojin
01-09-2014, 12:11 PM
I see a lot of the below as absolutely true and to the point. However there are some things to bring up.


VoN 3 has been coming. Hopefully it's only a small decrease.

But that's all people want to run to level. More xp in other quests, means hopefully people will be willing to run other stuff too.

My only suggestion would be to raise the xp of both House D Epics (Bargain of Blood, etc.) and Red Fens. Both those areas could use a boost (And loot overhaul, but I'll take an xp boost for now).


I'd prefer raising xp of optionals to reward thoroughness rather than zerging to the main objective.
It would be nice if optionals across the board got a huge boost. Soo many are skipped because they do not garner enough of a gain to go for them. I think all optionals in all quests should offer 50% base or more (given current base exp values). Heroic and epic. I am thinking levels 1-7 should net 500 or more per optional, 8-13 should be 1000 per or more, and 13-20 should be be 2000 per or more. Epics I think should be 50% base or more in a strong way since it would help with karma farming.


On second thought, while I applaud this refinement, I personally don't much care about epic XP. I hit lvl 28 fast enough, and wallow there scrounging for comms.

Sooo, I know it's off topic, but since someone (me) brought comms up, I feel the comm rewards need about a 30-50% increase. Even if that creates a small surplus of comms, that wouldn't be so bad. It would be nice to see a reward list and not think of it as "Things I CAN'T have".
I think all tring should require one basic ingredient and all end rewards as well as chests should have them added to their tables (not in place of a slot, an extra slot where these appear). It would be as prevalent in quest as festivault coins, and in end rewards as guild renown. Then add special loot tot hat slot, fill it with something fluffy for 90% and add useful stuff to the last 10. Like skill tomes, stat tomes, etc, named loot, ingredients, and comms /tr stuff). The amount gained can always be adjusted, however there is A LOT to be said about always providing incremental steps toward the goals of TRing and making better loot.


Do yourself a massive favour here and take some advice.

Please state clearly
(1) what your target range of xp per minute is in coming to these decisions for Heroic and Epic Normal, Hard and Elite? I'm assuming you don't have a single number of xp/min to aim for.
(2) what data do you base your times on?

Without this information, we have no way of coming back to you with any sort of useful feedback on what we consider acceptable/worthwhile/WAI.
Giving exact times or even estimates puts turbine in a bad position; setting them up for liability they do not want to meet. Meaning someone who works for turbine puts the word out that a quests should take X minutes, everyone will make that the baseline standard and anything worse is gimp and anything better is pro. And then, even with one quest mentioned, all quests will be metered against it. Suddenly exp values will be based on that one comment. Instead, if they don't tell the source and the estimates, we as the community make them ourselves, with the soft grounds that it could be anything different.

That said, I am pretty positive they know exactly how long it takes each quest to be ran, they even have a range of time based on good builds and gear, and bad builds and gear. And that data comes from us, not internal.


I hope lowering XP in Von3 won't be a huge amount. Yes, it's quick and easy xp. But, it doesn't hurt to have an easier quest with good xp for leveling karma and/or off destinies. And with the new ransack system most folks never run it more then twice a day and then go run something else. Not saying I didn't see this coming, but hoping it's not going to be nuked from orbit.

Good list of quests to increase, glad to see Chains of Flame on that list. For the time involved both running to and running the quest it really needs a boost.
If the base values of other quests are moderately increased, the hit to von3 would be ignored due to increased runs of other content offering competitive exp/min.


Turbine,

How about instead of dropping the exp on some quests, you raise the exp on a LOT of others to make them more attractive to run. This tiny list of increases, while good, only scratches the surface. Jungle of Khyber isn't run so much simply because it's worth a giant pile of exp, but also because it's a fairly straightforward quest. There's no annoying hoops to jump through, no puzzles, no back and forth running. Just a more or less straight line to the end with a boss fight. It's just a simple standalone quest, worth good exp, that's right next to the Airship.

Look at the other options for level 9 quests: Threnal? Don't make me laugh! Annoying escort missions, failure states, out of the way in an explorer area, and worth relatively poor exp. The same goes for Redfens: Quests in an explorer area with gimmicks. The underwater mechanics of Into the Deep and Fathom the Depths are poor. The Last Stand has a failure state and is basically standing around waiting for enemies to arrive. The Claw of Vulkoor can be zerged with invis(kinda), but it's still more of a gimmick than the straight zerg run of Jungle of Khyber, and is worth less exp.

The only other quest at level 9 that competes with Jungle is the Shadow Crypt, but even THAT has to done using a workaround to repeat it, and most people require a wiki guide to complete in reasonable time.

The problem is far more complex than simply how much time it takes to complete a quest. Even the time it takes to complete is more complex when you take into account the travel to actually reach the quest entrance.

Turbine, you need to take a step back and really try to understand why people run the quests they do. It's NOT simply a matter of how much exp a quest is worth. Fiddling around with exp values needs to be done in a more comprehensive manner, with much better understanding of how and why players run each quest(or don't run it, in some cases).
Actually people are inherently lazy after tring. So what happens is they stop worrying about enjoying a quest and quickly work on zerging lives until they hit completionist or some build mecca that they designed a week ago. So the whole reason X quest is farmed is simply because it is easy exp. Lowering those while raising other quests values is exactly how they fix that lazy button. When they adjusted exp this last time, massive lfms appeared for the content touched. And the same will be true for 21.

However, I do think everything needs a longer look. I know from experience that you can indeed one time most heroic content to cap without much rerunning. I know that isn't the case for epic yet. One day it will be there (when every heroic quest has an epic version for sure).

The adjustments now are to make each life one where you don't have to repeat much, and can enjoy the quests you want to enjoy. So I think this change is super positive for the most part.

As for specific quests, there are too many I feel need boosting. I would love a flat formula; where quest level, duration, and difficulty made a flat base exp. However, there are too few categories for duration, and not enough detail in what makes a quest challenging or not, so that flat system would be pretty impossible to implement. From a development and player standpoint.

I do think some quests that are difficult have low numbers. And they do get skipped because of that. I also think boosting optionals significantly would help to get past that low base exp and keep the better rewarding quests ran at the same pace. I think quests need more optionals as well.

FranOhmsford
01-09-2014, 12:21 PM
Stop to ask to slow down the quests, crippling, spell wards, dungeon alert are stupid and annoying. If you dont like to zerg just dont group up with ppl that do.

Some ppl have ran those quests a million times and have no interest in flower sniffing. Stop to try ruin the game just cos you dont like to zerg.

Zerg is an ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT in TWO Quests that I know of in this Game: Offering of Blood and Prey on the Hunter!

Where I ask is Flower-Sniffing an ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT?

Shouldn't there be Quests for Everyone?


Hey I get it - I understand that when you're under Time Restraints you want to be Able to move fast.
BUT
3 Hella Pro/Tribe Zerg Veterans each doing a Tower take How Long to complete Wiz King exactly?
3 Hella Pro/Tribe Zerg Veterans doing each Tower Together take How Long to complete Wiz King?

IF The second is less than 3 times the Duration of the first then I refer you back to my Previous Posts:

Where I stated that Optional XP should be Boosted so as to Make Running the Quest ONCE with Full Optionals etc. MORE XP than Running it twice as Fast as Possible!


Heck I'd be surprised if 3-6 players like yourself couldn't run Wiz King as a Group with ALL Opts, Ransack, Conquest and Ingenious in Less than 25 Minutes!

Just because you can currently do it in 10 by Splitting Up doesn't mean that's a GOOD thing for the Game!


P.S. The meaning of "Zerg" seems to be Fluid and has changed Plenty in the 3.5 years I've been playing DDO {My FIRST and ONLY MMO!} - Just like the Meaning of BYOH changes depending on who you ask.

The meaning of Flower Sniffing however is Quite obvious and ALWAYS Quite Plainly FALSE and DEROGATORY!


I'd have No issues with Zerging/Zergers if they weren't so obviously also Elitists!

Zerg/BYOH/Solo a Tower and all that it represents is the Issue.
NOT
I want to run this quest as fast as I/We Can!


Last Night I put up a couple of LFMs on Cannith I honestly thought would NEVER Fill!

1) GH Fast Slayers {Major Pot in use} - First person joined as I started on Fist {asked him to run Eye}, Group was Full by the time I got to Heart - 10 Minutes to Fill!

2) Orchard Slayers - Full Clearance NOT Resetting Instance - One person joined while I was still on Airship, Cleared Fleahmakers to GoP, Thru Tunnel and down to Vol and Group was FULL!
20 mins to Fill!


Also BEFORE I ran these Slayers on Pots I did a GH Cabal, PoP, Madstone, Tor run Elite BB - And two very famous Cannithites Joined - One Proceeded to run to the top of PoP and Solo Half of the Rooms while I and another Player did Fire and Air Rooms.
The Other who having entered PoP as we completed Proceeded to Massacre Madstone before leaving Group Happy!
The First then Massacred Tor while I tried in Vain to Simply keep up!

Heck I didn't mind - I was in a rush myself as it's getting closer and closer to the twelfth and the Cut-Off Point for FREE Epic Hearts BUT Did those two people actually make those quests easier for myself or the other guy?

NOPE!

I was forced to go to my Bow in Fire {On a Tempest!} as the Other Guy insisted on doing the Lever {My Hireling - That would have done the lever - died of course within 5 seconds of Fight Starting.

In Air I put the Hire on the Lever again and me and the other guy did it {Myself still using the Bow of the Elements {AIR!}} BUT would that have been easier with the WF Wizard in there with us - HECK YEAH!!!

In Madstone - WF Wizard DIDN'T INVIS THE GIANTS!
Me and the Other guy were left on 1st Crystal - A Tempest using a Bow to keep aggro off Giant and a Melee Monk - NO AoEs or CC!
Second Crystal was done BEFORE FIRST!!

Tor - Lol - Was Finished Fast and Easy BUT is Frankly ALWAYS Finished Fast and Easy!


I've got the greatest Respect for those two guys for their ability to Play this game and would gladly run with either of them again.
I'm also happy to run with the Monk again despite his/her cowardice in PoP!
And Yes I died Myself in Tor - Was left Fighting a Multitude of Giant Casters!

BUT

Did my LFM say Zerg, Byoh, Be Self Sufficient or ANYTHING of that Ilk?

**** NO!

Do my LFMs EVER Say anything of that Ilk?

ONCE on Molineux - His FvS Life - Lords of Dust - I put Elite BB BYOH {Euurgh I feel Dirty!} because I KNEW He wasn't Heal Capable and Didn't want to give people any illusions about the fact that he was a MELEE Build!
Group was Full in NO TIME!

Would I put BYOH on an LFM in Future?

NOPE!

Molineux will be Off his FvS life soon enough {already at 20 and just waiting for a Heart} and Every One of my other Divine Toons IS and WILL ALWAYS BE Group Heal Capable!

Livmo
01-09-2014, 12:35 PM
It's the point of playing DDO. The game becomes about making your characters more powerful.

After running through the content, what else is there? Most stuff is cool and awesome and you can geek-out about is . . . THE FIRST TIME YOU RUN THROUGH IT.

But after that? Once the thrill is gone? Pursuit of more power is really all that's left.

This is a good definition of DDO's end game. Once I've exploered everything all I do now is focus on getting more powerful. DDO has an end game and Teh_Troll succinctly defined it.

mutilador
01-09-2014, 12:41 PM
Zerg is an ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT in TWO Quests that I know of in this Game: Offering of Blood and Prey on the Hunter!

Where I ask is Flower-Sniffing an ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT?

Shouldn't there be Quests for Everyone?


Hey I get it - I understand that when you're under Time Restraints you want to be Able to move fast.
BUT
3 Hella Pro/Tribe Zerg Veterans each doing a Tower take How Long to complete Wiz King exactly?
3 Hella Pro/Tribe Zerg Veterans doing each Tower Together take How Long to complete Wiz King?

IF The second is less than 3 times the Duration of the first then I refer you back to my Previous Posts:

Where I stated that Optional XP should be Boosted so as to Make Running the Quest ONCE with Full Optionals etc. MORE XP than Running it twice as Fast as Possible!


Heck I'd be surprised if 3-6 players like yourself couldn't run Wiz King as a Group with ALL Opts, Ransack, Conquest and Ingenious in Less than 25 Minutes!

Just because you can currently do it in 10 by Splitting Up doesn't mean that's a GOOD thing for the Game!


P.S. The meaning of "Zerg" seems to be Fluid and has changed Plenty in the 3.5 years I've been playing DDO {My FIRST and ONLY MMO!} - Just like the Meaning of BYOH changes depending on who you ask.

The meaning of Flower Sniffing however is Quite obvious and ALWAYS Quite Plainly FALSE and DEROGATORY!


I'd have No issues with Zerging/Zergers if they weren't so obviously also Elitists!

Zerg/BYOH/Solo a Tower and all that it represents is the Issue.
NOT
I want to run this quest as fast as I/We Can!


Last Night I put up a couple of LFMs on Cannith I honestly thought would NEVER Fill!

1) GH Fast Slayers {Major Pot in use} - First person joined as I started on Fist {asked him to run Eye}, Group was Full by the time I got to Heart - 10 Minutes to Fill!

2) Orchard Slayers - Full Clearance NOT Resetting Instance - One person joined while I was still on Airship, Cleared Fleahmakers to GoP, Thru Tunnel and down to Vol and Group was FULL!
20 mins to Fill!


Also BEFORE I ran these Slayers on Pots I did a GH Cabal, PoP, Madstone, Tor run Elite BB - And two very famous Cannithites Joined - One Proceeded to run to the top of PoP and Solo Half of the Rooms while I and another Player did Fire and Air Rooms.
The Other who having entered PoP as we completed Proceeded to Massacre Madstone before leaving Group Happy!
The First then Massacred Tor while I tried in Vain to Simply keep up!

Heck I didn't mind - I was in a rush myself as it's getting closer and closer to the twelfth and the Cut-Off Point for FREE Epic Hearts BUT Did those two people actually make those quests easier for myself or the other guy?

NOPE!

I was forced to go to my Bow in Fire {On a Tempest!} as the Other Guy insisted on doing the Lever {My Hireling - That would have done the lever - died of course within 5 seconds of Fight Starting.

In Air I put the Hire on the Lever again and me and the other guy did it {Myself still using the Bow of the Elements {AIR!}} BUT would that have been easier with the WF Wizard in there with us - HECK YEAH!!!

In Madstone - WF Wizard DIDN'T INVIS THE GIANTS!
Me and the Other guy were left on 1st Crystal - A Tempest using a Bow to keep aggro off Giant and a Melee Monk - NO AoEs or CC!
Second Crystal was done BEFORE FIRST!!

Tor - Lol - Was Finished Fast and Easy BUT is Frankly ALWAYS Finished Fast and Easy!


I've got the greatest Respect for those two guys for their ability to Play this game and would gladly run with either of them again.
I'm also happy to run with the Monk again despite his/her cowardice in PoP!
And Yes I died Myself in Tor - Was left Fighting a Multitude of Giant Casters!

BUT

Did my LFM say Zerg, Byoh, Be Self Sufficient or ANYTHING of that Ilk?

**** NO!

Do my LFMs EVER Say anything of that Ilk?

ONCE on Molineux - His FvS Life - Lords of Dust - I put Elite BB BYOH {Euurgh I feel Dirty!} because I KNEW He wasn't Heal Capable and Didn't want to give people any illusions about the fact that he was a MELEE Build!
Group was Full in NO TIME!

Would I put BYOH on an LFM in Future?

NOPE!

Molineux will be Off his FvS life soon enough {already at 20 and just waiting for a Heart} and Every One of my other Divine Toons IS and WILL ALWAYS BE Group Heal Capable!

I dont zerg all the time and i do all opts often.

But my problem with your post its cos you are asking for harried and it's annoying.

The most stupid things introduced in this game were crippling for EVERY SINGLE MOB in epic quests and instant red alert in quests like we have in shadowfail.

Turbine needs to understand that its a game and if you keep doing stuff that annoy the players they will just leave.

Im not asking for an auto-completion mob but slow down us is annoying not everybody play the easy mod builds.

Why we all get punished with those stupid mechanics?

Edit: BTW do you know what kill grouping? Its the pointless dungeon scalling.

Thordarr
01-09-2014, 12:46 PM
I just listened to DDOCast where Cordovan said on the subject of XP changes "You do some quests for XP and some are just for fun".

Hold for Re-enforcements has aweful XP and didn't get any love on the last pass. I can only assume it is working as intended and this is one of those quests you do for fun.

That's right, Cordovan defends Coyle for fun!

Qhualor
01-09-2014, 12:50 PM
I just listened to DDOCast where Cordovan said on the subject of XP changes "You do some quests for XP and some are just for fun".

Hold for Re-enforcements has aweful XP and didn't get any love on the last pass. I can only assume it is working as intended and this is one of those quests you do for fun.

That's right, Cordovan defends Coyle for fun!

That quest would be more fun if they would fix agro. You can knock him out and be on the other side of the quest, but mobs from the opposite end still see him and go straight to him ignoring you.

Thrudh
01-09-2014, 12:51 PM
Thank you for doing this.

I like the Shadowfell content, but there was not much motivation to run it after the first tour due to items and xp. Although I like to run the quests it seems hard to fill an LFM for them.

Me too... I like the new content, and I'm very glad of the exp changes.

If the only negative is lowering VON3 (which EVERYONE knows is too high), then this change is hugely net positive.

But don't worry, the doom-bois will be along to say "This change sucks".

Thrudh
01-09-2014, 12:54 PM
Helen Keller could see that eVon3, especially on Normal, was giving an inordinate experience for the level of effort. You don't have to be Nostradamus or some sort of MMO Elitist to see that an adjustment was coming.

Truth be told an adjustment is most likely very warranted for the overall "big picture" health of the game. 7k+ per named and 60-80k+ end reward XP for a quick normal run? Really?!?

Yep, and at least they waited until they could up two dozen other quests exp... so that's a huge net gain for all of us...

Thrudh
01-09-2014, 12:59 PM
Turbine,

How about instead of dropping the exp on some quests, you raise the exp on a LOT of others to make them more attractive to run. This tiny list of increases, while good, only scratches the surface. Jungle of Khyber isn't run so much simply because it's worth a giant pile of exp, but also because it's a fairly straightforward quest. There's no annoying hoops to jump through, no puzzles, no back and forth running. Just a more or less straight line to the end with a boss fight. It's just a simple standalone quest, worth good exp, that's right next to the Airship.

Look at the other options for level 9 quests: Threnal? Don't make me laugh! Annoying escort missions, failure states, out of the way in an explorer area, and worth relatively poor exp. The same goes for Redfens: Quests in an explorer area with gimmicks. The underwater mechanics of Into the Deep and Fathom the Depths are poor. The Last Stand has a failure state and is basically standing around waiting for enemies to arrive. The Claw of Vulkoor can be zerged with invis(kinda), but it's still more of a gimmick than the straight zerg run of Jungle of Khyber, and is worth less exp.

The only other quest at level 9 that competes with Jungle is the Shadow Crypt, but even THAT has to done using a workaround to repeat it, and most people require a wiki guide to complete in reasonable time.

The problem is far more complex than simply how much time it takes to complete a quest. Even the time it takes to complete is more complex when you take into account the travel to actually reach the quest entrance.

Turbine, you need to take a step back and really try to understand why people run the quests they do. It's NOT simply a matter of how much exp a quest is worth. Fiddling around with exp values needs to be done in a more comprehensive manner, with much better understanding of how and why players run each quest(or don't run it, in some cases).

You are wrong... how much exp a quest is worth is nearly 100% of why people run a certain quest over others... Loot may make up 10% of that.

Your own post proves it... You mention Shadow Crypt, which many people have to have a wiki page open to do, and people still run it because the exp is so good...

All those other quests you mention are very good quests... Give them more xp and people will run them.

I can't believe you just asked for more straightforward run to the boss fight quests... All those quests you mentioned that have hoops to jump through, puzzles, etc. are what make this game FUN (for most of us). You'd be happy with a single room with a chest and boss that you run over and over and over.

pHo3nix
01-09-2014, 12:59 PM
Zerg is an ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT in TWO Quests that I know of in this Game: Offering of Blood and Prey on the Hunter!

Where I ask is Flower-Sniffing an ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT?

Shouldn't there be Quests for Everyone?


Hey I get it - I understand that when you're under Time Restraints you want to be Able to move fast.
BUT
3 Hella Pro/Tribe Zerg Veterans each doing a Tower take How Long to complete Wiz King exactly?
3 Hella Pro/Tribe Zerg Veterans doing each Tower Together take How Long to complete Wiz King?

IF The second is less than 3 times the Duration of the first then I refer you back to my Previous Posts:

Where I stated that Optional XP should be Boosted so as to Make Running the Quest ONCE with Full Optionals etc. MORE XP than Running it twice as Fast as Possible!


Heck I'd be surprised if 3-6 players like yourself couldn't run Wiz King as a Group with ALL Opts, Ransack, Conquest and Ingenious in Less than 25 Minutes!

Just because you can currently do it in 10 by Splitting Up doesn't mean that's a GOOD thing for the Game!


P.S. The meaning of "Zerg" seems to be Fluid and has changed Plenty in the 3.5 years I've been playing DDO {My FIRST and ONLY MMO!} - Just like the Meaning of BYOH changes depending on who you ask.

The meaning of Flower Sniffing however is Quite obvious and ALWAYS Quite Plainly FALSE and DEROGATORY!


I'd have No issues with Zerging/Zergers if they weren't so obviously also Elitists!

Zerg/BYOH/Solo a Tower and all that it represents is the Issue.
NOT
I want to run this quest as fast as I/We Can!


Last Night I put up a couple of LFMs on Cannith I honestly thought would NEVER Fill!

1) GH Fast Slayers {Major Pot in use} - First person joined as I started on Fist {asked him to run Eye}, Group was Full by the time I got to Heart - 10 Minutes to Fill!

2) Orchard Slayers - Full Clearance NOT Resetting Instance - One person joined while I was still on Airship, Cleared Fleahmakers to GoP, Thru Tunnel and down to Vol and Group was FULL!
20 mins to Fill!


Also BEFORE I ran these Slayers on Pots I did a GH Cabal, PoP, Madstone, Tor run Elite BB - And two very famous Cannithites Joined - One Proceeded to run to the top of PoP and Solo Half of the Rooms while I and another Player did Fire and Air Rooms.
The Other who having entered PoP as we completed Proceeded to Massacre Madstone before leaving Group Happy!
The First then Massacred Tor while I tried in Vain to Simply keep up!

Heck I didn't mind - I was in a rush myself as it's getting closer and closer to the twelfth and the Cut-Off Point for FREE Epic Hearts BUT Did those two people actually make those quests easier for myself or the other guy?

NOPE!

I was forced to go to my Bow in Fire {On a Tempest!} as the Other Guy insisted on doing the Lever {My Hireling - That would have done the lever - died of course within 5 seconds of Fight Starting.

In Air I put the Hire on the Lever again and me and the other guy did it {Myself still using the Bow of the Elements {AIR!}} BUT would that have been easier with the WF Wizard in there with us - HECK YEAH!!!

In Madstone - WF Wizard DIDN'T INVIS THE GIANTS!
Me and the Other guy were left on 1st Crystal - A Tempest using a Bow to keep aggro off Giant and a Melee Monk - NO AoEs or CC!
Second Crystal was done BEFORE FIRST!!

Tor - Lol - Was Finished Fast and Easy BUT is Frankly ALWAYS Finished Fast and Easy!


I've got the greatest Respect for those two guys for their ability to Play this game and would gladly run with either of them again.
I'm also happy to run with the Monk again despite his/her cowardice in PoP!
And Yes I died Myself in Tor - Was left Fighting a Multitude of Giant Casters!

BUT

Did my LFM say Zerg, Byoh, Be Self Sufficient or ANYTHING of that Ilk?

**** NO!

Do my LFMs EVER Say anything of that Ilk?

ONCE on Molineux - His FvS Life - Lords of Dust - I put Elite BB BYOH {Euurgh I feel Dirty!} because I KNEW He wasn't Heal Capable and Didn't want to give people any illusions about the fact that he was a MELEE Build!
Group was Full in NO TIME!

Would I put BYOH on an LFM in Future?

NOPE!

Molineux will be Off his FvS life soon enough {already at 20 and just waiting for a Heart} and Every One of my other Divine Toons IS and WILL ALWAYS BE Group Heal Capable!

I like to zerg and i usually assume it's the default in any group, but if i'm asked to slow down i would just slow down, finish the quest following PL desires and then leave. So, have you tried to ask them to slow down? It usually works :)

About Madstone: madstone is similar to wiz king; if there are 3 people you can have 1 person on each seer and complete in a decent amount of time. Invis is still working on Heroic, so just invis the giant and kill mobs.

If you don't like zerging just put "no zerg--healer needed" in the lfm: most zergers would never join such a group, so you can do both them and yourself a favor ;)

@OP: Can you please increase the xp in evening star heroic quests as well? Considering at almost the same lvl you can run litany, missing, running with the devils, sane asylum there's really no reason to run those quests for xp.

Nascoe
01-09-2014, 01:00 PM
I know this may be absurd, but just change all xp in game to automagically adjust the quest xp = to <n> xp/min no matter what quest you run, no matter how long it takes.

That way the xp/min crowd will run whatever quest since they are all the exact same xp/min. Unless you do that we are going to have the "best quest to run" and "worst quests to run" lists.

It seems that this is the ultimate equalizer on time. People can play what they want... zerger, flowersniffer, and be completely equal. It might even revitalize the pug scene as people wont get mad about ruining their "xp/min".

We are past this point in the MMO industry. The games are becoming free to play and are not requiring the grind to keep the money train from hardcore subscribers. Let DDO be the first the embrace, and create, trends that people really want.

A really great idea that. Just park your character in good XP quest in some room you can close the door of, leave for work and when you come home you will earn a couple of lvls in one go! I really do not think that is a good game mechanic, because it takes away the enjoyment of the zerger of being able to get things done fast. The flowersniffer does not need a XP/min because that is not their motivation for running the quest at all.

dragon2fire
01-09-2014, 01:20 PM
Me too... I like the new content, and I'm very glad of the exp changes.

If the only negative is lowering VON3 (which EVERYONE knows is too high), then this change is hugely net positive.

But don't worry, the doom-bois will be along to say "This change sucks".

Lets be clear this change is not doom/....it is stupid plain and simple.

Thrudh
01-09-2014, 01:29 PM
This is what I felt like when I stepped into Wheloon the first time and saw the teleporter NPC. The wilderness areas are getting bigger, longer and harder to navigate just so they can toss those teleporter guys in order to exploit their Astral Shard System (see what I did there?).

Gianthold and Sands are just as big... so it's something they've always done. Once you learn the new explorer areas, every quest is super fast to get to, without spending astral shards. That feature is there just for the lazy.

You guys do nothing but exaggerate.

Thrudh
01-09-2014, 01:30 PM
LOLz . . . tripling the XP of Shadowfail won't make people run those quests any more.

Explorer areas are too much of a pain. Stormhorns is too big, Wheloon gets quadruple spawns and lags out entire parties. They are too difficult to run fast, if at all, in off-destinies needed for the ridiculous karma farming on EE.

Another dumb idea.

Run them on EH when off-destiny karma farming.

And if they tripled the xp, I guarentee every powergamer would be out there running them...

Quite a few of those quests are VERY fast.

patang01
01-09-2014, 01:32 PM
I love how everyone is talking like it's something you HAVE to be a part of. If you don't like, why do it? Is it a competition, do you have to be more powerful than everyone else? I'm not making fun, I honestly just don't get it.

I like how some assume that if Turbine change the way I play I should just give up my playstyle and enjoyment and do it their way because they created an abnoxious system. I pay Turbine for my entertainment. I don't pay them to make my entertainment a boring chore.
Do I have to do it? How about I don't pay at all and leave? How will that help you in the long run? Why not argue for a better system that retain you and me and a healthy player base instead of arguing to maintain a ****** system just because you can't imagine something better for all of us?
My argument is about retention of people like me that want to reward Turbine for great content. Your argument is for me to bend over and just try to enjoy it.

And given the shrinking player base I think your argument quickens the end. I did not create the ****** off destiny karma system. Turbine did. But lets answer your question simply - what else is there? Just doing the same quests over and over for no reason what so ever? No goal - none in regards to loot or even achievements? Just because I'm at cap with my destiny and should just run a quest? Do I need to be more powerful than anyone else? I honestly don't care - I want a achievable goal. Something to look forward to, to notice an improvement for my own reasons. I don't care how 'powerful' anyone else is - I just want to be able to do harder content, achieve a few more goals and see some changes in progression.

Most people (maybe not you) do things because of progression. Regression drives people away and flat lining eventually bores people and they leave. If there's no goal there's no reason. I doubt it's in the best interest of a company like Turbine to hope that it can retain people by making their entertainment experience suck or not progress.

Because as far as the numbers shows it's not exactly the greatest idea so far. I don't know if this answers your 'I don't get it' question but there you have it.

Teh_Troll
01-09-2014, 01:33 PM
Run them on EH when off-destiny karma farming.

With the current XP that's pointless. If it was tripled it's worth it.

Thrudh
01-09-2014, 01:36 PM
Lets be clear this change is not doom/....it is stupid plain and simple.

No, it's an awesome change... Increase the exp on 20 quests... and in return lower the exp on 1 quest... That's a great deal... I'll take it.

VON 3 is a good fun quest... Dropping it to 90k per run instead of 120k isn't going to stop anyone from running it.

Thrudh
01-09-2014, 01:37 PM
With the current XP that's pointless. If it was tripled it's worth it.

You just said triple them and it still wouldn't be worth it. Now you say the opposite. You are an excellent troll. :)

And many of those Wheelon and Stormhorn quests are super fast if you know how to run them... Surely, you've run with some powergamers who can show you how, right?

(The correct answer to that question is "Don't call me Shirley")

Arkitektonik
01-09-2014, 01:38 PM
How about Cannith Challenges get some love? Specifically filling them out to lvl28 and boosting the woeful heroic xp...

JOTMON
01-09-2014, 01:40 PM
No, it's an awesome change... Increase the exp on 20 quests... and in return lower the exp on 1 quest... That's a great deal... I'll take it.

VON 3 is a good fun quest... Dropping it to 90k per run instead of 120k isn't going to stop anyone from running it.

You are being optimistic...
more like 1% increase to all these quests and a 90% decrease to Von3 along with some bug that causes the barrier to go up before you are in the endfight room that causes the quest to be uncompletable.

Teh_Troll
01-09-2014, 01:43 PM
You just said triple them and it still wouldn't be worth it. Now you say the opposite. You are an excellent troll. :)

My trolling is stream of consciousness. Don't expect me to remember what I trolled 5 minutes ago.




And many of those Wheelon and Stormhorn quests are super fast if you know how to run them... Surely, you've run with some powergamers who can show you how, right?


I don't run these EH, ever. The only one that can't be run quick is WGU. But they are a pain to get to for some people and the Wheloon explorer area is broken.

But in looking for XP . . . these are a waste of time as there are much better options. In fact . . . I'm pretty sure VON3 was the only thing that was more than Impossible Demands at 80% ransack.

Scraap
01-09-2014, 02:11 PM
You missed the Point!

I Solo all the time {yes with a Hireling!}.

I have NOTHING Against someone Soloing {with or without Hireling} Wiz King {Obviously this is the ONLY part of my post you actually read!}.

My Suggestion would simply cut out the Solo a Tower Cr@p!

You want to Solo all 3 Towers go right ahead!

Heck grab Ransack, Conquest and Ingenious while you're at it!!!

BUT

If you're gonna Group Up - GROUP UP!

It's NOT a Race!



Wiz King would be a GREAT Quest if the Devs had made it so you couldn't enter Tower 2 or 3 till the Previous Tower/s were Done!

As it is It's possibly my least favourite quest in the Game!

Simply because of the Elitism of the Be able to Solo a Tower or Don't Join LFMs that have been Ubiquitous for as long as I've been playing this game {Going on for 4 years now!}.


Heck I have characters who I know Could Solo Wiz King at Level on Elite BB - I Won't Join Solo a Tower LFMs though!


And I don't see why ignoring Ransack, Conquest, Ingenious etc. Should give NOT ONLY a Faster Completion BUT More XP too!!!!!

Running Two Quick Completions SHOULD NOT give as Much XP in ANY Quest as Grabbing EVERY Optional Does!


And yes I can see that the Be able to Solo a Tower LFMs would also start requesting you have Rogue/Arti Levels and KILL/SMASH Everything!!
SO
Simply Upping the Optional XP is NOT going to make the Difference!

So - Apply the Harried Debuff if TWO Rooms of Mobs {In different Towers} are Active at the Same time {No Matter HOW MANY Mobs are Active!}!!!


The Only reason Players fight for their right to "Solo in Groups" is because of the Meta-Game and their Knowledge of the Quests!

The Devs Simply CAN'T Randomise the Quests well enough to Stop this from Happening so other means of Keeping Parties together must be Looked at!


Soloists can always Solo - Heck I solo all the time myself!

But when I join {or make} a Party I'm NOT Looking to SOLO!

I've run groups that have and haven't split. Because we could decide. Team work doesn't automatically mean standing on each others... er... toes.

mutilador
01-09-2014, 02:18 PM
No, it's an awesome change... Increase the exp on 20 quests... and in return lower the exp on 1 quest... That's a great deal... I'll take it.

VON 3 is a good fun quest... Dropping it to 90k per run instead of 120k isn't going to stop anyone from running it.

No, its not. Its a stupid change cos Shadowfail is stupid, stupid purple fog, stupid long walks, stupid instant red alerts.

I do run those quests every life and yes it really needs a xp boost but this dont make it awesome.

Ancient
01-09-2014, 02:29 PM
I can do an ok job of getting to the prison quests... but then I have to try to rescue party members who can't. The zone is ugly and annoying.

I haven't ran many of the stormhold quests because I got sick of running 10+ minutes to find a quest while I was playing ever quest. The ruins of karnak expansion bragged about "remote locations". EQ quickly figured out that was a horrible idea and went the other way.

Time spent traveling to and from the quest is wasted time in my book. I don't mind getting explorers as a pseudo quest, but the more difficult it is to get someplace, the less interested I am in doing it for "fun".

FranOhmsford
01-09-2014, 02:31 PM
I like to zerg and i usually assume it's the default in any group, but if i'm asked to slow down i would just slow down, finish the quest following PL desires and then leave. So, have you tried to ask them to slow down? It usually works :)


Back in 2010 NO-ONE thought Zerg was the "Default"

This is one of those things that has changed over time - and it's NOT a good change!

As I said in my post - I was in a bit of a rush mysefl and was not overly bothered at the Zerging itself OR the people doing it {Both Very Well known Completionists!}
Heck I knew as soon as they hit the LFM that we were going to be moving a heck of a lot faster than I'm used to!

My Issue is that according to these forums {and tbh In-Game Chat Channels like Cannithtrade or Defense (Sarlona)} This is Making the Quest easier!

It's NOT - What it IS doing is "Making the Quest FASTER"

Easier and Faster are two different things!

And for me {and the Monk who was the only person to join while I was running Cabal - everyone else joined for PoP} A Certain Completionist and Cannithtrade Alumni Joining Quest and Proceeding to Go Solo the Beholder/Marilith etc. DID NOT make the Quest Easier {Nor Faster as we still had to wait for the other two to enter before completing!}.

Now I'll give him his due...He did say after I'd typed in that we were at Law Room to leave him an Orb and He'd do a Room by himself - Silly me however thought he meant ONE room before joining up with us!

Somehow {with only Cure Light - Ranger 10/Ftr 5 Tempest} I managed after losing Hire at start of fight to Kill Efreeti and Fire Eles {Fire Eles after running round the room like a loon Healing up and Swapping to Bow/Clicking Manyshot - Funny how the Tempest does MORE Dmg with the Bow!}.

So NO The Quest Was NOT made Easier!


About Madstone: madstone is similar to wiz king; if there are 3 people you can have 1 person on each seer and complete in a decent amount of time. Invis is still working on Heroic, so just invis the giant and kill mobs.

Hey...I believe I stated that the Wizard did NOT Invis the 1st Giant {I actually don't know about the second or 3rd Giant as I had to catch up.}
If he had {OR If I'd had a Clickie rather than Pots} I wouldn't even have mentioned said 1st Giant!


If you don't like zerging just put "no zerg--healer needed" in the lfm: most zergers would never join such a group, so you can do both them and yourself a favor ;)

NO!

I won't Put No Zerg as I feel this IS the Default {and Frankly anyone saying otherwise is being incredibly Selfish and Inconsiderate of "Supposed" Lesser Players!}.

AND

I Certainly will NOT put Healer Needed as I carry a Hireling Cleric/FvS at all times anyway and am quite happy to provide Healing {or Ressing} thru them to anyone who needs such!

I may Put TRAPPER Needed BUT Only if I don't want to pay for a Hireling {Which in Many Cases of Late has been More Likely to Get the Bleedin' Traps!}.
I LIKE INGENIOUS DEBILITATION bonus Before You tell me that No Quest needs a Trapper!


@OP: Can you please increase the xp in evening star heroic quests as well? Considering at almost the same lvl you can run litany, missing, running with the devils, sane asylum there's really no reason to run those quests for xp.

/Signed!



Frankly pHo3nix I well remember you being the person who took time out to show me how to run Temple of Vol after I'd complained on these forums about EVERY SINGLE Group being Zerg BYOH Know It etc.

I know you're better than
If you don't like zerging just put "no zerg--healer needed" in the lfm: most zergers would never join such a group, so you can do both them and yourself a favor ;) Makes you sound!

Many Many Players out there would NEVER join a Group Labelled Zerg BYOH Know it etc. Yet I see these Labels on LFMs All day Every day!

I've Personally HAD to join such groups from time to time {as I at the time Had no Hope of Soloing Said Quests and Despite what these forums think Grouping Up can STILL make Quests Easier for those of us who aren't able to Solo everything in the game even without a Hireling!}.

So Yes I've Enabled the Zerg BYOH Know It Mentality from time to time myself {Just by joining those Groups!}.

What I DON'T Get is Why you seem to think that Despite these Groups filling fast anyway EVERY Group that DOESN'T specifically State NO ZERG also means Zerg Ahead!


Don't make Us "Lesser Players" out to be the Bad Guys when you want to Both have Your Zerg AND Eat it!!!!!

Braegan
01-09-2014, 02:33 PM
There is ONE Quest in this game that I'd like to see Nerfed XP Wise - And yes I know I'm gonna get flak for this BUT:

SHADOW CRYPT!!!

-And IF Two {or more} Rooms are activated at the Same time APPLY HARRIED DEBUFF!!!


Actually this Last Point should be considered in quests like Wiz King too - Might FINALLY Stop the Solo a Tower Cr@p!!!

Nerf the BASE XP of Gwylan's, Tear and Stormcleave WHILE Boosting their Optional XP so as to make Shortcutting thru them less Popular!




Well, you knew you were going to catch flack for it! :)

Trying to not quote your full post but to respond:

What I did leave out of quote I mostly agree with, the streamlining of the level range of chains like Tangleroot, Sorrowdusk, Deleras, and Threnal should have been made long ago when bravery bonus was added to game. Prior to that it was a non-issue.

Now, onto what I disagree with.

Leave Shadow crypt xp alone. With this last xp pass gaining xp is very front loaded now. Having a handful of quests that are good xp right in the middle of the leveling road is fine. Since ransack has been introduced to xp, folks aren't even running it like they used to. So on two counts I see no reason to change this.

The harried penalty to splitting up, is a biased and bitter suggestion based on your opinions of a playstyle not favorable to yourself. Devs should ignore all selfish suggestions such as those. As you mentioned some quests mandate zerging (Prey on Hunter, Offering of Blood)...well some mandate splitting up (Von 5, Titan pre-raid, Xorian Cipher). While it's not mandatory to split up in Wiz king or Shadow crypt, it is a way the quests can be run. Having choices are good.

Tear/Gwylans/Stormcleave do not need their xp touched. Of those three the only one I know of that most skip optionals is Stormcleave. Most groups I've been in will get all the shards for Tear and will try to get traps, breakables etc for Gwylans. So I am seeing a disconnect from what you are posting and what actually happens live.

Hafeal
01-09-2014, 02:43 PM
If the only negative is lowering VON3 (which EVERYONE knows is too high)

I certainly don't KNOW it. I have no idea what criteria and their ranks which Knockback and Turbine are using as the guide to setting XP.

Further, if you sufficiently raise the XP in many other quests, increase commendation drops, along with loot modification, difficulty tweaking, etc (the "Wholistic approach" I advocated in my earlier post) then other quests besides Von 3 will get run and Von 3, in essence, already receives an xp nerf by not being as lucrative. But you have to do it right.

Von 3 is currently the "let anyone in" and run it for fun social spot ala old Shroud runs. Turbine seemingly has a masochistic streak to eliminate quests which fuse all gamers from casual to elite (Exhibit A: Shroud blades). "Oh, people will still run Shroud just as much." They don't. Period. Shroud NEVER recovered from the blades debacle. I am hopeful that Knockback and the devs can pause to recognize this and stop themselves from themselves.

EllisDee37
01-09-2014, 02:48 PM
To the devs, I would encourage you to reflect on the stated list of quests in the OP to get increases. Pretty much all of Shadowfell. While reflecting on that, consider Shadowfell's popularity compared to Menace of the Underdark. A little more care and attention to detail when applying XP to new quests you create would go a long way toward making the new content more attractive.

The ship has already sailed on packs like Secrets of the Artificers, which despite the significant xp increases is still largely viewed as pointless in terms of xp. Shadowfell is earning this reputation as we speak, and it's probably already a permanent reputation among the playerbase.

The philosophy of introducing weak things and making them stronger, as opposed to introducing strong things and then nerfing them, is understandable. Why create unnecessary player rage, right? But I think that Shadowfell, and comms of valor, demonstrate that you aren't particularly good at introducing weak things and then later making them stronger. Maybe going forward you should just try to balance things properly from the start and then later on if it turns out you happen to have to nerf something, so be it.

Thrudh
01-09-2014, 02:59 PM
I don't run these EH, ever. The only one that can't be run quick is WGU. But they are a pain to get to for some people and the Wheloon explorer area is broken.

But in looking for XP . . . these are a waste of time as there are much better options. In fact . . . I'm pretty sure VON3 was the only thing that was more than Impossible Demands at 80% ransack.

How is the explorer area broken? And they are increasing the XP... That's the point of this thread... Quite a few of the Wheelon and Stormhorn quests are fast... If they increase the xp a decent amount, they WILL be run more often.

FranOhmsford
01-09-2014, 03:01 PM
Well, you knew you were going to catch flack for it! :)

Trying to not quote your full post but to respond:

What I did leave out of quote I mostly agree with, the streamlining of the level range of chains like Tangleroot, Sorrowdusk, Deleras, and Threnal should have been made long ago when bravery bonus was added to game. Prior to that it was a non-issue.

Now, onto what I disagree with.

Leave Shadow crypt xp alone. With this last xp pass gaining xp is very front loaded now. Having a handful of quests that are good xp right in the middle of the leveling road is fine. Since ransack has been introduced to xp, folks aren't even running it like they used to. So on two counts I see no reason to change this.

The harried penalty to splitting up, is a biased and bitter suggestion based on your opinions of a playstyle not favorable to yourself. Devs should ignore all selfish suggestions such as those. As you mentioned some quests mandate zerging (Prey on Hunter, Offering of Blood)...well some mandate splitting up (Von 5, Titan pre-raid, Xorian Cipher). While it's not mandatory to split up in Wiz king or Shadow crypt, it is a way the quests can be run. Having choices are good.

Tear/Gwylans/Stormcleave do not need their xp touched. Of those three the only one I know of that most skip optionals is Stormcleave. Most groups I've been in will get all the shards for Tear and will try to get traps, breakables etc for Gwylans. So I am seeing a disconnect from what you are posting and what actually happens live.

OK False...Here we go:

Shadow Crypt XP is INSANE!

There I've said what needed to be said - Heck I've even had the guy who usually runs with me say that from now on He won't run Lvl 8-12 with me because he hard capped his 1st Life Toon on VoN 3 and therefore was Unable to Run Shadow Crypt {Not only for BB but seemingly at ALL!}.

Supposedly I'd forced him to Hard Cap by running Every Other quest imaginable Just so I didn't Have to run Shadow Crypt!

I NEED Multiple Phase Hammers
I actually LIKE Shadow Crypt!
I was slightly worried about the fact that my 2nd Life Tempest did NOT have DR Breakers for the Vamp and His Staff Monk was Not up to his usual Very High Standards!
BUT
I was definitely intending to run Shadow Crypt Once for BB then again after taking Lvl 12!

Turned out Haywire Foundry put me at a point where I would have Hard Capped before completing Shadow Crypt but Heck I was only on a 2nd Life Myself!


So I'll say this again - My Friend...Who Introduced me to this game back in 2010...And who is a Confirmed "Trinity" Player who Builds Tanks, Healers, DPS Assassins who can No Fail Traps from lvl 1-28! And Who Loathes Soloing and Insists on Grouping whenever Possible!
WOULDN'T run Haywire Foundry and COMPLAINED all thru Jungle of Khyber Because I was Killing His 1st Life Monk's Shadow Crypt XP!


Now Frankly I thought he'd lost his senses Personally.
BUT
If someone who's been adamantly against the Whole Zerg Mentality to have got to the point where He complains thru VoN 3 That it's gonna Kill His Shadow Crypt XP
Then Shadow Crypt NEEDS NERFING NOW!



Maybe I am Biased against Zerging But I'm certainly not being Bitter {Just Honest} when I say that Shadow Crypt and Wiz King were NOT originally envisioned {At least I certainly Hope Not!} by Turbine to be run as they currently and for at least the last 3 Years Are!

Heck I'm No Zerger {at least Not by the standards of Cannith!} But I do run Quests a Heck of a lot faster now than I did 3, 2 or even 1 year/s ago!
I regularly find myself having to slow down for Newbies BUT I don't consider this a Chore!


And I actually like Both Prey and OoB!
They're Both Good Fun Quests!

And Yes some quests do mandate Splitting Up!

However...You've said Yourself - Wiz King and Shadow Crypt Most definitely do NOT!

**** Shadow Crypt can be done like 30 seconds Faster by doing the Duo Run as opposed to the Single Run yet recently I've actually had people leave my groups because I was doing the Single {12 Gear} Route!


My Suggestions are Qualified - You can take the 1st Few Lines of My Post {or as someone else did ONE LINE!} Out of Context and call me Every Name under the Sun if you like.
BUT
I also Mandated a Boost to the Optional XP - And DON'T tell me a 12 Gear Run takes too much time!

And I'd have no problems with Quests Like Chains of Flame or Indeed Caverns of Korromar receiving XP Boosts either!

I do However Firmly Believe that 30k Plus for a Lvl 11 Quest that takes 5-10 Minutes to Complete {Basically the time it takes to run thru it!} is Too Much!
And XP Pots take this into the Realms of INSANITY!


Nerf Shadow Crypt's Base XP, Put some of that Back in the form of an XP Boost to Completing the 12 Gears and We're getting somewhere - It will STILL Be seriously High XP Comparatively Anyway BUT Won't be so Insanely over the Top as it currently is!


Kudos to the Devs on recognising that Epic VoN 3 is too High
Even More Kudos if Chains of Flame gets a PROPER XP Boost!

But there's Still More to Do!

Teh_Troll
01-09-2014, 03:11 PM
How is the explorer area broken? And they are increasing the XP... That's the point of this thread... Quite a few of the Wheelon and Stormhorn quests are fast... If they increase the xp a decent amount, they WILL be run more often.

Massive spawns causing instant red-alert causing the whole instance to lag out. This happens more often than it doesn't.

Hafeal
01-09-2014, 03:14 PM
Maybe I am Biased against Zerging But I'm certainly not being Bitter {Just Honest} when I say that Shadow Crypt and Wiz King were NOT originally envisioned {At least I certainly Hope Not!} by Turbine to be run as they currently and for at least the last 3 Years Are!

Really? You mean 2 quests which have been out since 2006 and the level cap was 10 and then 12 were never envisioned to be an easier run by the devs? I am going to go out on a limb and say as the level cap was raised they understood the power creep would make ALL earlier quests easier. I just don't think they had the resources to revamp older content or chose not revamp said content.

Braegan
01-09-2014, 03:30 PM
OK False...Here we go:



Well see you are basing your opinions on experiences with 1st life characters. Yes, I know you have trd quite a few characters, but your response is giving examples of 1st lifers hard capping on xp without hitting all of it. After the xp curve, 3rd lifers and beyond xp has become very front loaded without any increase to quest xp at those lower to mid levels. The result is more repeats, I don't hit every quest but just about all of them; I do skip quests I personally dislike but those are few in number. If you take xp away from one you have to give some back in the same level range. As it stands now, it's a bit more grindy for legend tr xp until about level 15 and then it becomes easier. I am sure this change has nothing to do with the introduction of iconics and them being able to start at 15 and that you have to pay for them...maybe.

And yes, I did say it was not mandatory to split the party in shadow crypt/wiz king like it is in other zones, but the option is there. You have some quests that must be run a certain way and many others that have various ways they can be run. Limiting options is not the way to go. Balancing a game that allows for a variety of players and mindsets to enjoy the game is.

Also, note I don't quote your full posts because they are very long. I read them fully and the link is in my quote for others that wish to refer to it, but I'm not going to quote a huge post when it's not needed. And, for the record I was not calling you any names. I specifically called your idea selfish, bitter and biased not you. There is a diference between saying someones idea is bad and that they are a bad person, the two are not the same.

FranOhmsford
01-09-2014, 03:32 PM
Really? You mean 2 quests which have been out since 2006 and the level cap was 10 and then 12 were never envisioned to be an easier run by the devs? I am going to go out on a limb and say as the level cap was raised they understood the power creep would make ALL earlier quests easier. I just don't think they had the resources to revamp older content or chose not revamp said content.

Hey...If people were Farming Shadow Crypt or Von 3 on lvl 16s with the requisite XP Penalty that goes with such I'd agree with you.

Or if they were Farming Wiz King on Lvl 19s with the same XP Penalty!

But they're NOT

They're Farming them on lvl 11s and 12s!

You try getting a Group for Shadow Crypt if you're Lvl 13 or Higher {A Pug Group NOT Some Friends/Guildies/Chat Channel of Your Choice Members!}.


Yes the Power Creep Effect of Greensteel + TR has to be taken into Account.
BUT
So does the Fact that All 3 of these quests were Originally Envisioned as End-Game!
Heck VoN and Sands were Both made Epic!

The Fact is though that the Devs when they made those quests Epic did NOT go back and Re-do their Heroic XP to fit in with where they now were in the game as they should have done!


Shadow Crypt is Even Worse!
The Necropolis has Never even been considered for Epicification {Not Even Orchard/Abbot which Practically Screams "Epic Me"}!
Yet Still Shadow Crypt retains it's Stupidly High BASE XP!

Compare it to Raids like Tempest Spine or Vault of Night and it STILL Comes out favourably!

Does this ^ Make ANY Sense to you?


Shadow Crypt ISN'T a Raid!
It Isn't even a Particularly tough Quest so long as you have One person in group who knows about the DDOWiki!

I Even went as far as to suggest a 1st time per Account Bonus for Quests like Shadow Crypt where the 1st Completion time is Likely to be In the Hours! IF you Complete at all!
And this Bonus {If I had My Way} Would NOT Require the Completion time to be that Long - It would be a SET BONUS for 1st Time Per Account!
So if your 1st Shadow Crypt run was in a Zerg Group that let you Pike at the Altar you'd Get the Super High XP BUT you wouldn't have learned the quest and would therefore have the possibility of a Super Long run on your Alt or your 2nd Life for Much Less XP!


Quest XP {and Lvl Ranges} Really should have been changed as the game Developed - The Fact that there's so many Incongruities means the Devs have Finally had to start Looking at Fixing them!

In My Opinion they're Not going anywhere Near Far enough - I'd personally be Happy if the BASE XP of VoN 3 and CoF were Swapped on Both Epic and Heroic!

BUT at least they're finally doing something!


Oh and yes...They've Proved that altering a Quest's Base Lvl CAN be done {Cabal For One is Now Lvl 14 in the Compendium!}.

Chamber of Rahmat - Move to Lvl 11
Offering of Blood Move to Lvl 12!

There's many more But these two are the WORST Offenders in the Game!

hit_fido
01-09-2014, 03:41 PM
I do However Firmly Believe that 30k Plus for a Lvl 11 Quest that takes 5-10 Minutes to Complete {Basically the time it takes to run thru it!} is Too Much!


Go run Shadow Crypt without referring to the wiki, the ddo forum, or some other list of "paths". Use only the DDO Client and a blank sheet of paper and pencil. Come back and tell us how long it took and how much you think the XP needs to be raised in light of the quest design itself.

For bonus points do it on a first life non-twinked melee character.