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SirValentine
01-08-2014, 04:10 PM
Though I thought it had some good uses, apparently negative reputation was more trouble than it's worth for Turbine to administer. I respect that.

However, light cannot exist without darkness. Without negative reputation as a counterbalance, positive reputation seems entirely pointless. Why not just scrap the reputation system entirely from the forums?

mobrien316
01-08-2014, 04:12 PM
Though I thought it had some good uses, apparently negative reputation was more trouble than it's worth for Turbine to administer. I respect that.

However, light cannot exist without darkness. Without negative reputation as a counterbalance, positive reputation seems entirely pointless. Why not just scrap the reputation system entirely from the forums?

I agree, and I gave you some positive rep for your good idea.

redspecter23
01-08-2014, 04:43 PM
Positive without negative is pointless. Just remove the whole thing. Positive rep is abused just as much as negative ever was except nobody complains about getting inappropriate positive rep. Sometimes people need to be told they are being disruptive by the population. One small little red box is an anomaly. If you get 75 of them from one post, then you may have stirred things up a bit too much. I liked that players had the ability to notify people of their inappropriateness even if those people never really cared.

Miow
01-08-2014, 04:51 PM
Just don't care about it like i do, ignorance in this case is quite nice.

mobrien316
01-08-2014, 04:53 PM
Positive without negative is pointless. Just remove the whole thing. Positive rep is abused just as much as negative ever was except nobody complains about getting inappropriate positive rep. Sometimes people need to be told they are being disruptive by the population. One small little red box is an anomaly. If you get 75 of them from one post, then you may have stirred things up a bit too much. I liked that players had the ability to notify people of their inappropriateness even if those people never really cared.

Except that it was often not used in the manner you describe. People give out negative rep for politely-written opinion that don't happen to match their own. I've gotten negative rep for stating I like a certain quest that someone else apparently doesn't like, which is just silly.


I agree that we should either have both or none, and probably none is the better option.

Icywave
01-08-2014, 04:57 PM
I agree that we should either have both or none, and probably none is the better option.

I'll go for none as well.

redspecter23
01-08-2014, 04:59 PM
Except that it was often not used in the manner you describe. People give out negative rep for politely-written opinion that don't happen to match their own. I've gotten negative rep for stating I like a certain quest that someone else apparently doesn't like, which is just silly.


I agree that we should either have both or none, and probably none is the better option.

It's unfortunate, but small amounts of negative rep are bound to happen. Players just don't like to see a single person give that red mark to them. Compare to youtube videos. It doesn't seem to matter what the video is, eventually someone gives it negative rep. You could have a video of a puppy saving a baby and it would get dislikes from somebody. Turbine was getting tired of investigating every little negative given and I don't blame them, but you can't change people. Someone just has to toss negative rep around. This is why we won't ever see it again.

LOOON375
01-08-2014, 05:01 PM
I liked that players had the ability to notify people of their inappropriateness even if those people never really cared.Really?

I can't tell you how many times I was given neg rep just for stating an opinion that someone didn't agree with.

Don't like someone's stance on an issue? Neg rep them for it. yeah, that was sweet.

Someone could've stated that they liked a certain quest, and would then get negged because a certain person didn't like the quest.

Then old neg rep system was abused beyond petty belief.

As it sits right now, nobody can have their account suspended because of some petty arsed, jackwad who likes to grief people ANNONOMOUSLY.

redspecter23
01-08-2014, 05:06 PM
Really?

I can't tell you how many times I was given neg rep just for stating an opinion that someone didn't agree with.

Don't like someone's stance on an issue? Neg rep them for it. yeah, that was sweet.

Someone could've stated that they liked a certain quest, and would then get negged because a certain person didn't like the quest.

Then old neg rep system was abused beyond petty belief.

As it sits right now, nobody can have their account suspended because of some petty arsed, jackwad who likes to grief people ANNONOMOUSLY.

Well the old system in theory handled that situation by allowing players to appeal the negative rep. It just wasn't feasible to keep doing that. Too much effort on Turbine's part. A random neg here or there in theory could be erased if it wasn't properly given. I'm talking about people that were so offensive they got negged into the ground by 50 different people. Those sort of posters probably didn't care and were looking for attention anyway. These are all reasons why the old system is gone. If a player is being offensive to the point where they should earn negative rep now, just use the report button.

SisAmethyst
01-08-2014, 05:17 PM
Well it has some value if you want to give a short feedback with comment to a topic without just posting /+1
Even thou I guess for most of the ones with a huge green bar it was just given out for posting a funny picture :D

Guanmagi-1
01-08-2014, 05:19 PM
My reputation precedes me.

Flavilandile
01-09-2014, 05:10 AM
Well the old system in theory handled that situation by allowing players to appeal the negative rep. It just wasn't feasible to keep doing that. Too much effort on Turbine's part. A random neg here or there in theory could be erased if it wasn't properly given. I'm talking about people that were so offensive they got negged into the ground by 50 different people. Those sort of posters probably didn't care and were looking for attention anyway. These are all reasons why the old system is gone. If a player is being offensive to the point where they should earn negative rep now, just use the report button.

In theory those that were negged into the ground ended up into a moderated group where their posts had to be checked by mods before being actually visible.
It's also a known fact that some people that were negged into the ground had their counter reset ( more than once ) for obscure reasons.

I agree that the system as it is right now is pointless and it could be gotten rid of.

Memnir
01-09-2014, 09:23 AM
I've always been in favor of killing (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/296376-Kill-the-Rep-System?highlight=kill+the+rep+system) the Rep system if it couldn't be fixed. And I don't think that removing Neg Rep was in any way a fix - it just made rep into an even bigger joke then ever. We have always had the Report button - always. Since the way for us to flag problem posters has gone back to the "old-school" way - Pos Rep also no longer serves a purpose.

It's like a Little League where everyone gets a trophy.



I'd happily give up my greenis if it would mean the final death of this vomitus system. It was always a contentious addition to the forums... and one that since the Mods don't want to deal with anymore, should just be taken behind the barn and put down once and for all.

danotmano1998
01-09-2014, 10:21 AM
Though I thought it had some good uses, apparently negative reputation was more trouble than it's worth for Turbine to administer. I respect that.

However, light cannot exist without darkness. Without negative reputation as a counterbalance, positive reputation seems entirely pointless. Why not just scrap the reputation system entirely from the forums?

+1

Oh wait.. No.. Let's go with

/Signed

EnjoyTheMoment
01-09-2014, 11:08 PM
/unsigned

If this issue registers as anything more than a microscopic blip in anybody's life, when weighed against all the other issues that go into making up a good life, then that really wouldn't be a good sign.

Dropping negative rep made sense because it caused work and negative rep was sometimes used to make other people feel bad. The change suggested here would be pointless.

Cordovan
01-10-2014, 09:18 AM
Positive without negative is pointless. Just remove the whole thing. Positive rep is abused just as much as negative ever was except nobody complains about getting inappropriate positive rep. Sometimes people need to be told they are being disruptive by the population. One small little red box is an anomaly. If you get 75 of them from one post, then you may have stirred things up a bit too much. I liked that players had the ability to notify people of their inappropriateness even if those people never really cared.


I'll go for none as well.


I've always been in favor of killing (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/296376-Kill-the-Rep-System?highlight=kill+the+rep+system) the Rep system if it couldn't be fixed. And I don't think that removing Neg Rep was in any way a fix - it just made rep into an even bigger joke then ever. We have always had the Report button - always. Since the way for us to flag problem posters has gone back to the "old-school" way - Pos Rep also no longer serves a purpose.

It's like a Little League where everyone gets a trophy.



I'd happily give up my greenis if it would mean the final death of this vomitus system. It was always a contentious addition to the forums... and one that since the Mods don't want to deal with anymore, should just be taken behind the barn and put down once and for all.


I would be willing to consider this. If you are opposed to the removal of positive reputation (aka - all reputation) from the forums, either post here or PM me if you don't want your opinion to be made public.

voodoogroves
01-10-2014, 09:24 AM
Can it.

Postumus
01-10-2014, 09:25 AM
However, light cannot exist without darkness. Without negative reputation as a counterbalance, positive reputation seems entirely pointless. Why not just scrap the reputation system entirely from the forums?


You can always turn your rep off if it bothers you. And you can simply ignore everyone else's rep if you think it is meaningless.

cjgoddard
01-10-2014, 09:25 AM
I would be willing to consider this. If you are opposed to the removal of positive reputation (aka - all reputation) from the forums, either post here or PM me if you don't want your opinion to be made public.


i'm for the removel, i think my being new with ddo and these forums has some thing to say also.

dunklezhan
01-10-2014, 09:44 AM
Speaking as someone with a massive greenis and a Hero of The People moniker, both of which I'd hate to lose after all this time... if there's no neg rep my greenis means less than it ever did. It doesn't indicate anything except occasionally I can be witty anyway. I'm no use to you if you want actual game advice.

So can it. Or bring back neg rep. Or just go reread Mem's original boycott thread again, his ideas were solid.

geoffhanna
01-10-2014, 09:51 AM
Negative rep was too often used to mean "I disagree with you" rather than its intended meaning of "you shouldn't post that". It led to the growth of a Mean Girls mentality and I am glad it is gone.

On the other hard, I like giving out positive rep. I like rewarding people who do something extra-specially good. I like having a built-in systematic way to say "please do that again" .

Maybe we could use a reset to put everyone back on the same playing field? I don't think it would matter in the long run, we'd all tend to end up where we are now, but if there is demand for a fresh start, I'm willing.

cjgoddard
01-10-2014, 09:59 AM
Negative rep was too often used to mean "I disagree with you" rather than its intended meaning of "you shouldn't post that". It led to the growth of a Mean Girls mentality and I am glad it is gone.

On the other hard, I like giving out positive rep. I like rewarding people who do something extra-specially good. I like having a built-in systematic way to say "please do that again" .

Maybe we could use a reset to put everyone back on the same playing field? I don't think it would matter in the long run, we'd all tend to end up where we are now, but if there is demand for a fresh start, I'm willing.


this is a idea, how about resetting it every year.

HatsuharuZ
01-10-2014, 10:11 AM
I agree with getting rid of the outdated reputation bars. If you're going to get rid of reputation, get rid of all signs of it.

droid327
01-10-2014, 10:13 AM
this is a idea, how about resetting it every year.

Or just have rep expire after 6/12 months or whatever...that restores some "meaning" to having lots of green boxes, as it means you're active and consistently posting well-received messages, not just that you've been around long enough to accrue enough random green.

Seikojin
01-10-2014, 10:17 AM
I think every post should have a like or dislike button. Does nothing but to show how many people like someones post or dislikes it. No banning from it, no forum title or anything. I think as cool as a reputation system sounds, it is too abuse able to be useful.

Dandonk
01-10-2014, 10:56 AM
I would be willing to consider this. If you are opposed to the removal of positive reputation (aka - all reputation) from the forums, either post here or PM me if you don't want your opinion to be made public.

Just take the rep away for good.

sephiroth1084
01-10-2014, 11:07 AM
Scrap it.

HungarianRhapsody
01-10-2014, 11:44 AM
Kill it with fire. The reputation system (both when it had positive and negative and still now with only positive) provides more problems than benefits.

jalont
01-10-2014, 11:58 AM
What would be the difference between the system we have now and a system with no rep? Absolutely nothing.

Cordovan
01-10-2014, 12:02 PM
What would be the difference between the system we have now and a system with no rep? Absolutely nothing.

The main argument I've seen so far is that some forum members really like their positive rep, want a quick way to give someone a thumbs-up that doesn't involve posting a reply, and because it has some small benefit in encouraging forum participation.

voodoogroves
01-10-2014, 12:04 PM
The main argument I've seen so far is that some forum members really like their positive rep, want a quick way to give someone a thumbs-up that doesn't involve posting a reply, and because it has some small benefit in encouraging forum participation.

Yeah but I think a "like" / "dislike" on content is better than "good poster" / "bad poster".

sephiroth1084
01-10-2014, 12:05 PM
Yeah but I think a "like" / "dislike" on content is better than "good poster" / "bad poster".

Agreed.

FranOhmsford
01-10-2014, 12:06 PM
I would be willing to consider this. If you are opposed to the removal of positive reputation (aka - all reputation) from the forums, either post here or PM me if you don't want your opinion to be made public.

I worked hard for my Forum Reputation {which even when Neg Rep was turned off and it was made meaningless still stood at only a little over the 1500 mark at which I was allowed to Neg Rep others - Something btw that I did NOT do as I'd grown quite used to simply Reporting.}.

I didn't post funny Pics like some.

I'm absolutely NOT amongst the Popular people on these forums!

Yet

I accrued that Reputation Honestly!
AND
had only TWO of the Many Neg Reps I received NOT Dismissed upon Appeal {one of which I'm still annoyed by as Attacking Grammar/Spelling is STILL Everywhere on these forums and I only made a Joke anyway!}.


So /Unsigned!



P.S. Why is the Phrase "Grammar Nazi" NOT Punished exactly?
Comparing someone who corrects your spelling not knowing whether that person was actually trying to be helpful/Just making a Joke/Actually being Nasty on Purpose! to a Political Entity Known for some of the Worst Atrocities in History is Clearly and Unequivocally Wrong in My View!



It's quite obvious that Turbine got rid of Neg Rep because their Moderators couldn't keep up with the Appeals!
Which I still believe to be a Poor Excuse!
Getting Rid of Pos Rep However is Far Far Worse!

Deadlock
01-10-2014, 12:08 PM
Current positive rep with comments works well. Negative rep was just a way to grief people so best that it's gone even though I do read some utter garbage in General Discussion that I would gladly neg rep.

On the positive rep side, the comments in particular can be very enlightening when people give you some feedback. Positive use can only be encouraged.

UurlockYgmeov
01-10-2014, 12:08 PM
Yeah but I think a "like" / "dislike" on content is better than "good poster" / "bad poster".

two points:
- may want to just lurk and this allows a way to stay semi-lurkish and still be heard
- may want to not have a way (other than pm) to do so.

FranOhmsford
01-10-2014, 12:09 PM
Yeah but I think a "like" / "dislike" on content is better than "good poster" / "bad poster".

And a Dislike Button could be Abused far far worse than Neg Rep ever was!

God I can see it Now - A small Minority of Regular Forum Goers Hitting Dislike on Multiple Posts while Liking Each others no matter what is said!


Let's leave me out of this - I know Every single one of my posts would garner a thousand dislikes!
But
Think about Poor Chai or Thrudh!
Or Memnir with 6,000 likes per Mario Pic!

No!

Dawnsfire
01-10-2014, 12:29 PM
I really don't understand why anyone cares. Reputation isn't an indicator of anything at all and I really don't think even new folks are fooled by those pretty green dots some people have been awarded.

My personal feeling is that Turbine shouldn't invest a single nanosecond into the forum rep system one way or another.

Postumus
01-10-2014, 01:17 PM
Negative rep was too often used to mean "I disagree with you" rather than its intended meaning of "you shouldn't post that". It led to the growth of a Mean Girls mentality and I am glad it is gone.

On the other hard, I like giving out positive rep. I like rewarding people who do something extra-specially good. I like having a built-in systematic way to say "please do that again" .



I agree. Making rep 'mean something' is just a recipe for disaster. And pointless IMO. I can add rep as a sort of 'like' acknowledgement and that is more than enough for me.

Postumus
01-10-2014, 01:23 PM
Let's leave me out of this - I know Every single one of my posts would garner a thousand dislikes!
But
Think about Poor Chai or Thrudh!
Or Memnir with 6,000 likes per Mario Pic!

No!

I don't know about that. I accumulated a bunch of rep simply by arguing with other people and saying things a other folks were thinking but didn't want to, or couldn't bother to, post. I got neg rep too (which I never contested or even knew about for a long time since my rep was turned off for over a year), but the overall result was positive.


Yeah there was the occasional bon motte or link, but I'm at least as opinionated and outspoken as you, Fran, and it didn't make a difference. The pos rep keeps coming.


Heck people dogpile on Chai right and left, and he's got a gigantic stack of rep. But from the way forum people go after him you'd think he was a pariah.

Nascoe
01-10-2014, 01:40 PM
Sure, its not as if "reputation" gets you anything but a green bar showing you have it.

But I do agree with those saying its a neat way to give someone positive feedback, a small "thank you for posting this". I tend to use it and like to add a comment to it, when I don't have much to add to the discussion at that point, so it would be a bit of a shame to see it go (and it would likely upset those that have "earned their green" over the years and feel attached to that rep.).

MuleAxe
01-10-2014, 01:59 PM
Reputation? An arbitrary green dot doesn't give any prestige, scrap it.
If you like an idea, picture, comment, or anything else someone posted, how about you just let them know by telling them...

The whole concept of a reputation system is a bit outdated... especially if it's just a one way street... up.

dunklezhan
01-10-2014, 02:20 PM
I agree that a like/dislike system is not awful. Effectively, that's all the rep system ever was - making that plain might make people both abuse it less and care about it less, and that's could be a good thing to be honest.

I mean, there's no way I should have a 'reputation' almost equal to Memnirs. That's stupid. I haven't contributed anything meaningful to the community. But I try to be helpful and fair, and try to be constructive. That doesn't mean I'm right or that my opinion counts for anything - and if rep was being used to favour those you felt deserved real 'reputation' then this would not

be the case. But given my post count and that I try to behave well, it's conceivable that significantly less people have found a reason to 'dislike' than have 'liked' my posts, especially given the sheer size of my post count since '09.

In short - it's already a like/dislike system. The argument is whether to scrap it entirely or brand/display it differently, that's all. There is no system that is not vulnerable to the circle jerk positive or negative frenzy. None. Facebook can't get rid of that, and it lives on the 'like' system. The only way to do it is to recognise the pointlessness of it from the ground up when you design the system.

For example (though I doubt this is really workable but hey - I'm just some guy you don't know on a forum, don't be fooled by the greenis):

Recognise the reality and change it to a straight up like/dislike system. However, make it do nothing except send you a notification (not as in a PM, as in a thumbs up/down notification icon in the top corner of the forum or something) when you get a like/dislike with the one in 'profit' lit up - visible to you, but no one else.). Maybe - maybe - grant a random forum title at a 'like' threshold. Just one, and it's random, and comedy, so meaningless. There's no value in the circle jerk in either direction except to give someone without a title one, or take one away, but since they're reduced to silly comedy titles, this won't matter. Dunklezhan the Hopeless Romantic is actually pretty good, but Dunklezhan the Orcish Codpiece, or whatever, is also fine, because the title simply means 'more people like how I engage with the community than dislike it. At the moment'.

That's about the only way I can see it working. Or just spare the effort, and scrap it completely.

EllisDee37
01-10-2014, 02:36 PM
I kind of like my green bar, which was earned almost exclusively from posting guides.

I also miss negative rep, and just rep in general. Before the forum change, far more rep was flying, both to me and from me. Incoming rep was typically 10:1 postive:negative, and I rather liked the neg rep I earned. Of course I never contested any of it.

Ever since the forum change I hardly ever rep anything, and hardly anyone ever reps me. It's kind of a dead system now.

FlaviusMaximus
01-10-2014, 02:47 PM
Remove positive rep and scrap the reputation system altogether. If someone likes something that someone else has said, they can say so in the thread. More than that isn't needed. Too many people are being rewarded for catering to the lowest common denominator right now.

Ungood
01-10-2014, 03:00 PM
I believe that the Pos Rep button, is a handy way to tell someone "Good Post" without the need to fatten up a topic with a bunch of posts going "Good Post"

While overall, it is meaningless, as I can tell, I would get a laugh seeing my rep meter looking like Christmas lights when I said something on a hot button topic, at the same time, I agree, that neg rep, really never did much other then gave a means to grief people.

But lets be real, many forums have pointless fluff on them, like titles, rep, post count, starting date, and all of this is really fluff, when all that should matter is the weight of their words in the post they put up.

Anyway, I think the system as a quick and private "Thumbs Up" is a great feature, I just wish I could tell who was giving it to me *hint hint*

sephiroth1084
01-10-2014, 03:33 PM
I worked hard for my Forum Reputation {which even when Neg Rep was turned off and it was made meaningless still stood at only a little over the 1500 mark at which I was allowed to Neg Rep others - Something btw that I did NOT do as I'd grown quite used to simply Reporting.}.
"Worked hard"? Really?

Last I checked, I had just a little less than 1 Rep per post, or well over 10,000 Rep, and I can tell you, it's not a matter of working for anything. There were a few posts here and there where I was being funny and knew I'd probably garner some rep for that, but posts are made for their own sake, not for a green bar. If you were working for Rep, then that just illustrates the problem with the system, and if you weren't, and were posting for the sake of whatever points you felt needed making, then the Rep should be irrelevant.

The value of Neg Rep was in being able to highlight posters who routinely were abrasive, unhelpful, and otherwise generally a detriment to the community on the whole. That Neg Rep got abused, was no reason to remove it, and the positive Rep half of the coin is fairly meaningless without it.

If people really need that ego-stroking, just put in Like/Dislike buttons on posts and let people get their jollies seeing that some post of theirs is well liked.

EnjoyTheMoment
01-10-2014, 03:36 PM
The main argument I've seen so far is that some forum members really like their positive rep, want a quick way to give someone a thumbs-up that doesn't involve posting a reply, and because it has some small benefit in encouraging forum participation.
I'd like to add one more to the list.

Dropping negative rep cut down on forum mod work and stopped others from using the forum rep system to make others feel bad. That was a constructive change. In contrast, dropping forum reputation all together is achieves nothing of any importance. Even if it's just a matter of flipping a switch, it will still be disappointing to some who felt they earned those green bars and even the overwhelming majority of those who dislike forum rep would just move to other issues once this thread finished up and it became apparent that positive rep would stay.

Pala-forged
01-10-2014, 03:41 PM
Either give me lots of positive rep or nuke it from orbit - I don't care which.

Desonde
01-10-2014, 04:04 PM
The main argument I've seen so far is that some forum members really like their positive rep, want a quick way to give someone a thumbs-up that doesn't involve posting a reply, and because it has some small benefit in encouraging forum participation.

Which suggests that a simple like/QFT counter on the individual posts would be more beneficial [especially for tracking the user bases' agreeance with the comment].

Silverleafeon
01-10-2014, 05:36 PM
The main argument I've seen so far is that some forum members really like their positive rep, want a quick way to give someone a thumbs-up that doesn't involve posting a reply, and because it has some small benefit in encouraging forum participation.

+1

SirValentine
01-10-2014, 07:20 PM
some forum members really like their positive rep


<shrug> There's lots of things in the game, and some things in the forums, that people liked and have gone away. Some forum members really liked their ability to give negative rep, and that's gone.



want a quick way to give someone a thumbs-up that doesn't involve posting a reply


There are or could be other tools for that, that would actually serve that purpose better. Since rep is tallied per-person, not per post, it's not actually very helpful for identifying good posts. For instance, already at use elsewhere in the DDO forums there is a number-of-stars rating system.



it has some small benefit in encouraging forum participation.


It does? How so? I'm not saying it doesn't, but that's sure not obvious to me.

BOgre
01-10-2014, 08:12 PM
The main argument I've seen so far is that some forum members really like their positive rep, want a quick way to give someone a thumbs-up that doesn't involve posting a reply, and because it has some small benefit in encouraging forum participation.

Agreed. I like my greens, but I also liked the occasional red. It helped to keep my ego in check when I started getting uppity...

I like the compromise idea regarding a simple "like/dislike" button on a Per Post basis.

FranOhmsford
01-10-2014, 08:50 PM
"Worked hard"? Really?


Yes actually.

Because you'd be hard pressed to find a post of mine agreeing with the Usual Suspects on these forums or Trying to Garner Cheap Rep!

My Rep comes from actually putting my Point of View out there warts and all - I've taken my licks and kept going.

Now since the Neg Rep disappeared I've received 0 Pos Rep {at least as far as I can tell} so It's pretty clear that:

1) People simply aren't bothering to rep any more and Neg Rep being around actually Kept People Pos Repping too

2) These New forums simply don't let us know when we've been repped anyway and I doubt I'd notice if I got one more Green Square.

3) All the Rep I do have is from the Days when Neg Rep was available and Liberally abused by so many {Neg Rep that I did Appeal every single time!}.

So yes it was Hard Work earning and maintaining that Renown and having those Green Squares next to my name is a nice reminder even if they don't REALLY mean anything.

FranOhmsford
01-10-2014, 08:53 PM
I like the compromise idea regarding a simple "like/dislike" button on a Per Post basis.

Do NONE of you have any idea how much a Per Post Like/Dislike Button would be abused?

Far worse than Neg Rep ever was I can guarantee you!

If you don't believe me pick a Newspaper/TV News Website {one with a Like/Dislike Setting} and scroll down the Comments - You'll soon see what I mean!

Guanmagi-1
01-10-2014, 08:56 PM
Either give me lots of positive rep or nuke it from orbit - I don't care which.

Yes.

HungarianRhapsody
01-10-2014, 09:07 PM
Do NONE of you have any idea how much a Per Post Like/Dislike Button would be abused?

Far worse than Neg Rep ever was I can guarantee you!

If you don't believe me pick a Newspaper/TV News Website {one with a Like/Dislike Setting} and scroll down the Comments - You'll soon see what I mean!

This kind of nonsense is just like the claims that negative reputation was bullying. Saying "I like this" or "I don't like this" is not abusing a feature. It's using the feature exactly as intended. Letting someone know that you like their post does not harm them. Letting someone know that you dislike their post does not harm them.

BOgre
01-10-2014, 09:13 PM
Do NONE of you have any idea how much a Per Post Like/Dislike Button would be abused?

Far worse than Neg Rep ever was I can guarantee you!

If you don't believe me pick a Newspaper/TV News Website {one with a Like/Dislike Setting} and scroll down the Comments - You'll soon see what I mean!

I dislike your post because it is a generalization, unduly negative, and pretty much just wrong. I also gave you positive rep for it. Am I abusing the system?

Guanmagi-1
01-10-2014, 09:17 PM
I like the idea of the like/dislike post system.

EnjoyTheMoment
01-10-2014, 10:00 PM
Agreed. I like my greens, but I also liked the occasional red. It helped to keep my ego in check when I started getting uppity...

I like the compromise idea regarding a simple "like/dislike" button on a Per Post basis.Negative reputation was scotched for a couple of pretty good reasons.

Why would a "dislike" button be used for different purposes than a negative reputation button?

BOgre
01-10-2014, 10:24 PM
Negative reputation was scotched for a couple of pretty good reasons.

Why would a "dislike" button be used for different purposes than a negative reputation button?

The purpose is irrelevant, it's the consequences that matter. Neg rep could put you into Moderated Status. Neg Rep appeals also demanded mod time and resources to investigate. Likes/Dislikes would have zero impact on the poster's ability to post, zero mod resources to administer, and result in a purely subjective (and easily ignored, if that's your bent) sideline metric.

The folks who got off on neg'ing people into the ground would have no reason to spam dislikes, since their efforts would mean nothing. I can't see it being a problem.

humbleroller
01-10-2014, 10:26 PM
i cant give positive rep. why do people still have the green dots anyway ?

Memnir
01-10-2014, 10:37 PM
The purpose is irrelevant, it's the consequences that matter. Neg rep could put you into Moderated Status. Neg Rep appeals also demanded mod time and resources to investigate. Likes/Dislikes would have zero impact on the poster's ability to post, zero mod resources to administer, and result in a purely subjective (and easily ignored, if that's your bent) sideline metric.

The folks who got off on neg'ing people into the ground would have no reason to spam dislikes, since their efforts would mean nothing. I can't see it being a problem.Actually, they took away the Moderated Status pretty rapidly. Yes, you could still in theory hit Moderated Status if a Mod intervened and put you there - but the auto-Moderated was very quickly turned off. Plus, given that it was a Mod's discretion on which Neg Rep Magnets to put on Double Secret Probation, there was never a definitive line or amount of Negs needed to land there. One near legendary disruptive influence here on the boards proved that in spectacular fashion.

I think the only reason why Negs went the way of the Dodo was the time the Mods had to put in looking over appeals. It got to be a hassle, I'm sure... and I very much hope it was. We never asked for the Rep System, it was inflicted upon us. It was only fair that the Mods had to deal with the fallout of their choice to saddle us with it by dealing with the abuse that piggybacked along.


Frankly, I would prefer if ALL Rep were to vanish, but honestly at this point I'm pretty ambivalent if the truth be told.
Everyone who wants a Like Button - well, the Rep button is now exactly that. Want a Dislike button... we have that too, in the form of the Report Button. If it's not bad enough to Report a post, then it likely also would not have really warranted a Dislike, either. Like a post? Rep em. Boom - done.

EnjoyTheMoment
01-10-2014, 11:05 PM
The purpose is irrelevant, it's the consequences that matter. Neg rep could put you into Moderated Status. Neg Rep appeals also demanded mod time and resources to investigate. Likes/Dislikes would have zero impact on the poster's ability to post, zero mod resources to administer, and result in a purely subjective (and easily ignored, if that's your bent) sideline metric.

The folks who got off on neg'ing people into the ground would have no reason to spam dislikes, since their efforts would mean nothing. I can't see it being a problem.What would the purpose be for a system that has no meaning? If dislikes really would "mean nothing", then don't bother with them at all.

But, dislikes would have meaning because purposes and outcomes are linked -- even though you're suggesting otherwise. A key purpose for clicking on dislike is to undercut the credibility of a post (and posters, on occasion). A system with "dislikes" couldn't go un-moderated because in the absence of moderation "lowest common denominator" behavior would occur to routinely target particular perspectives (and posters, on occasion).

I can see a like / dislike system "being a problem".

Thud
01-11-2014, 01:35 AM
+1, er /signed

Flavilandile
01-11-2014, 01:37 AM
Likes/Dislikes would have zero impact on the poster's ability to post, zero mod resources to administer, and result in a purely subjective (and easily ignored, if that's your bent) sideline metric.

One point to consider if we go this way is to separate both counters...

For a given post we can like or dislike. like is added to the like counter, dislike is added to the dislike counter, both counter are displayed in the poster data like the greenis is displayed right now.
That way it shows both the likes and the dislikes and people can, by looking at them, know if the person has had more like than dislike.

Edit : But I'm still of two mind, Killing the whole system has it's appeal too and still has my preference.

sephiroth1084
01-11-2014, 02:51 AM
What would the purpose be for a system that has no meaning? If dislikes really would "mean nothing", then don't bother with them at all.

But, dislikes would have meaning because purposes and outcomes are linked -- even though you're suggesting otherwise. A key purpose for clicking on dislike is to undercut the credibility of a post (and posters, on occasion). A system with "dislikes" couldn't go un-moderated because in the absence of moderation "lowest common denominator" behavior would occur to routinely target particular perspectives (and posters, on occasion).

I can see a like / dislike system "being a problem".

That's the entire purpose of it: to draw attention to a post that others feel is valuable for some reason, or indicate that a post isn't valuable for some reason. And if that's all it does, who cares? What abuse is there? Are people going to cry over getting Dislikes on their post? Sure, I guess we could get some valuable posts that rack up Dislikes because someone is trolling or something, but that's no different than people who just dump all sorts of garbage posts into a thread...except it would be less distracting.

I'd be fine with the whole system going away. Purely positive rep is totally worthless, unless you're really that desperate for positive reinforcement and bolstering of your self-esteem. Most of the people who care the least about the rep system are the ones with the most positive rep. That should tell you something.

At this point, the only time I pass out rep is for a really excellent post that makes a good point that I'd like the devs to read and heed in the hopes that there's someone over at Turbine who takes note of posts getting a lot of that sort of attention. If there isn't, then it's an absolute waste of the couple of seconds it takes to perform that task. Like/Dislike would be the same.

Ungood
01-11-2014, 06:07 AM
Actually a "Like" Button I think would be really nifty, and resolve the issues with forum rep and what ideas people get about it.

I mean I have to laugh when I read how some people claim it is totally worthless but yet will only pos rep if the poster has written something amazing, really? LOL, if the rep is as worthless as you say it is, you should be tossing it out like cheap candy on Halloween, if you reserve "Rep" for posts you think are only "truly deserving" then you obviously think this rep stuff it's worth something to place such hard demand to get any from you. Seems rather hypocritical to take such a stance.

Me, I claim that is has no integral worth, but at the same time, I treat it as such, I toss rep on any post I think it funny, like I have tossed a pos rep on some of Mem's pictures, or was just a good post in general, posts that answered questions, I have even pos rep to people who proved me wrong.

So to anyone who says "rep is worthless" but yet is unwilling to dispense it like worthless token candy, you're doing it wrong.

Anyway, Cord, since it's pretty painfully obvious people really have no idea how to treat this rep system thinking that it's worthless and yet hording it like it's worth something at the same time, can we just a "Like" button tagged at the bottom of a post, so if the post was note worthy, people can just like it, and we see how many people liked said post (while keeping it Anonymous of course, as I believe some Lurkers might like to remain Lurkers)

mkmcgw17
01-11-2014, 06:54 AM
The main argument I've seen so far is that some forum members really like their positive rep, want a quick way to give someone a thumbs-up that doesn't involve posting a reply, and because it has some small benefit in encouraging forum participation.

I don't know that much about reputation or the forum pages in general. If its like a post rating system well that's fairly subjective and frequently the unpopular posts are more accurate than the popular ones.

katz
01-11-2014, 08:17 AM
Actually a "Like" Button I think would be really nifty, and resolve the issues with forum rep and what ideas people get about it.
---
can we just a "Like" button tagged at the bottom of a post, so if the post was note worthy, people can just like it, and we see how many people liked said post (while keeping it Anonymous of course, as I believe some Lurkers might like to remain Lurkers)

"you must spread some reputation around around..." DANGIT!!!


see? a like button would totally fix that!!!

i can't count how many times i've agreed with and liked something someone said... twice in a row.. and not been able to rep the second one.


i'm all for a like/dislike system.

Guanmagi-1
01-11-2014, 08:22 AM
"you must spread some reputation around around..." DANGIT!!!


see? a like button would totally fix that!!!

i can't count how many times i've agreed with and liked something someone said... twice in a row.. and not been able to rep the second one.


i'm all for a like/dislike system.

Actually maybe just a like button for posts. We don't have to hang a greenis from the popular kids' hats, but recognizing a post as a common sentiment could be a good thing. I'm going to suggest my brilliant idea to Facebook.

moomooprincess
01-11-2014, 12:40 PM
I don't know that much about reputation or the forum pages in general. If its like a post rating system well that's fairly subjective and frequently the unpopular posts are more accurate than the popular ones.

The rep system was implemented as a High School Popularity Club or High School Clique.

Entire guilds ONLY POS repped their guildies and went after others with a vengeance. If you were neg repped by one of them, you were then neg repped by ten of them.

Posters could actually post good stuff, that actually helped the community, but if you were not one of the popular kids you were crushed.

Just like High School.

I recall lots of posts that stated that too. I am sure they still exist.

Flavilandile
01-11-2014, 01:58 PM
Actually maybe just a like button for posts.

That's probably the best one.

A Like/Dislike button on each post, with like/dislike counters based on posts.... So that people will know that a post is liked ( good, informative, fun, whatever ) or disliked ( troll bait, naughty, bad, wrong, ... ).
No link to the poster ( even if eventually people will be able to see trends ).

Otherwise if not for the above, just kill the whole system.

LOOON375
01-11-2014, 02:57 PM
The rep system was implemented as a High School Popularity Club or High School Clique.

Entire guilds ONLY POS repped their guildies and went after others with a vengeance. If you were neg repped by one of them, you were then neg repped by ten of them.

Posters could actually post good stuff, that actually helped the community, but if you were not one of the popular kids you were crushed.

Just like High School.

I recall lots of posts that stated that too. I am sure they still exist.Yep. You would see posters with a very small amount of posts, but still had maxed reputation and could in turn give neg reputation at will. ive seen some posters on this forum with with less than 100 posts with maxed rep. And Im not talking about posters that created useful stuff. Posters that basically contributed nothing useful or helpful to the forum.

Daine
01-11-2014, 03:27 PM
/signed - scrap it.

I like my little green boxes, some of them I even earned through helpful, thoughtful or informative posts. Thankfully, I haven't reached the stage where I measure my self-worth through the amount of small green boxes I have, so you're welcome to have them all back!

Ungood
01-11-2014, 06:55 PM
I was thinking more how You Tube does it, with a Up/Down Vote system.

Thud
01-12-2014, 02:39 AM
/signed - scrap it.

I like my little green boxes, some of them I even earned through helpful, thoughtful or informative posts. Thankfully, I haven't reached the stage where I measure my self-worth through the amount of small green boxes I have, so you're welcome to have them all back!

Eloquent and concise, yet would receive negative rep by those who measure their worth differently.

humbleroller
01-12-2014, 04:37 AM
I like REDDITs method.
The thread gets 1 upvote or downvote (or neither) per person and that determines where it is on the front page (or 2nd, 3rd etc). The OP doesnt get repped at all for starting a thread.
There is a few more calculations that go into REDDITs system, such as age of post, number of views, number of replies etc.

Its pretty amazing what can be seen when you unsubscribe from /r/aww
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/p403x403/1459096_696383203716431_318469226_n.jpg

Marten
01-12-2014, 07:55 PM
I would be willing to consider this. If you are opposed to the removal of positive reputation (aka - all reputation) from the forums, either post here or PM me if you don't want your opinion to be made public.

I would not want positive rep to be done away with.

When I post about something I find a positive rep helpful. When I am actively trying to help other players the positive rep motivates me to keep working on that topic. Not everyone that reads a post wants to reply to the post, but can still show their support. People that disagree with a post still have an option to post a counter point, report it if action needs to be taken, or move on. Positive feedback in the form of rep hurts no one.

sirgog
01-12-2014, 11:50 PM
Negative rep was legitimately useful to warn people not to listen to posters who routinely posted bad advice. The problem was that it was taken personally by a lot of recipients.

Positive rep mostly means "This person has a long history of posting humorous posts". Nothing gets +1s quite like posting a lolcat with a DDO theme. Bonus +1s for fitting in Ghostbane or Hi Welcome.

For rep to be meaningful, it should be positive and negative and should decay in a relatively short time. Otherwise the system needs to be killed with fire.

Ungood
01-13-2014, 06:41 AM
I would not want positive rep to be done away with.

When I post about something I find a positive rep helpful. When I am actively trying to help other players the positive rep motivates me to keep working on that topic. Not everyone that reads a post wants to reply to the post, but can still show their support. People that disagree with a post still have an option to post a counter point, report it if action needs to be taken, or move on. Positive feedback in the form of rep hurts no one.

I believe a "Like" Button would provide this, I mean, like a Pos Rep, seeing "Good Post!" inspires you to keep it up. I think a Like/Dislike would be better, because then we could see how many people (Laughed at)/(got butt hurt by) the same posts.

Ungood
01-13-2014, 06:57 AM
Negative rep was legitimately useful to warn people not to listen to posters who routinely posted bad advice. The problem was that it was taken personally by a lot of recipients.

Not really true, it was used mainly by people with an ax to grind and enough rep to say I don't like what you said and would neg rep them. In fact, if you did not have a at least a few reds in your bar, you never said anything important. A Good chunk of people used it as a means to harass/grief new people they disagreed with, or simply did not like.

It may have had a legitimate intention which was why it was put in, but in the hands of over emotional gamers on power trips whatever Legitimate use it had, was not accentuated for the most part, hence why it went away. If it was used in a legitimate and fair manner, it would still be around.

Truth is, I would laugh at the prospect of how many pos and negs I would get when I chimed in on Hot Button Topics, often enough times to see my rep bar go Christmas lights on a single post, all those little reds and greens from the same post. Lucky me, it took less rep to pos then it did to neg, so in the end, I often came out ahead.

But lets be blunt here, when that kind of stuff was prevalent on the forums where people were getting neg and pos for the same post, it's neigh impossible to validate that either one of them are really legitimate.

A Like/Dislike, I think would be better, it placate the means of the few who feel the need to "downvote" anyone that disagrees with them, while also having no impact on that poster, at the same time, they could "Upvote", and all that would do is let the Poster know people thought it was a good post overall, with nothing to collect or acclimate, and no need to bolster the topic with a bunch of "This be a good post!"

Kawai
01-13-2014, 07:59 AM
Not really true...

confused. u r both correct, yanno? :)

jalont
01-13-2014, 07:26 PM
Wow.

It's as simple as this.

1.) Forum rep means absolutely nothing.
2.) Some people like their imaginary internet points.
3.) People who wish to deprive others of the strange happiness they get from their imaginary internet points are just grinches and need to reevaluate their lives and figure out why it's so important for others to not be happy.

Cordovan
01-14-2014, 10:28 AM
I've been considering the future of having a reputation system at all on the forums in recent days, and I think I'm currently leaning toward keeping the current positive-only system in place for a little while longer. I agree in general with those who say it's largely meaningless and has very little value, but I also hear those who like their positive rep, green bars, and the ability to give someone a quick thumbs-up, so if it's easily ignore-able, but makes some folks happy, what's the harm in keeping it.

Thumbed_Servant
01-14-2014, 10:52 AM
I've been considering the future of having a reputation system at all on the forums in recent days, and I think I'm currently leaning toward keeping the current positive-only system in place for a little while longer. I agree in general with those who say it's largely meaningless and has very little value, but I also hear those who like their positive rep, green bars, and the ability to give someone a quick thumbs-up, so if it's easily ignore-able, but makes some folks happy, what's the harm in keeping it.

Agreed

danotmano1998
01-14-2014, 12:11 PM
if it's easily ignore-able, but makes some folks happy, what's the harm in keeping it?

Can't argue with this logic, sounds like a good plan.
*thumbs up*

Ungood
01-14-2014, 12:15 PM
I've been considering the future of having a reputation system at all on the forums in recent days, and I think I'm currently leaning toward keeping the current positive-only system in place for a little while longer. I agree in general with those who say it's largely meaningless and has very little value, but I also hear those who like their positive rep, green bars, and the ability to give someone a quick thumbs-up, so if it's easily ignore-able, but makes some folks happy, what's the harm in keeping it.

Noooooo Nooooo! AHHHRrggghhh, You have made sense! Curse you! How dare you or Turbine come across as rational or reasonable!

(I am joking about this)

EnjoyTheMoment
01-14-2014, 01:39 PM
I've been considering the future of having a reputation system at all on the forums in recent days, and I think I'm currently leaning toward keeping the current positive-only system in place for a little while longer. I agree in general with those who say it's largely meaningless and has very little value, but I also hear those who like their positive rep, green bars, and the ability to give someone a quick thumbs-up, so if it's easily ignore-able, but makes some folks happy, what's the harm in keeping it.
Agreed.

Memnir
01-14-2014, 05:34 PM
so if it's easily ignore-able, but makes some folks happy, what's the harm in keeping it.No harm beyond it being a pet-peeve of mine I'd like to see squashed. :)


If it stays, fine. It'd be better if it were killed with fire - but it's like it's doing any harm as it is (as opposed to before, when it really was used to harm).

Postumus
01-14-2014, 05:47 PM
so if it's easily ignore-able, but makes some folks happy, what's the harm in keeping it.


Crazy talk. If two or three people don't like it, you must force everyone else to comply!

HungarianRhapsody
01-14-2014, 06:12 PM
Crazy talk. If two or three people don't like it, you must force everyone else to comply!

It worked for the Crucible...

Silverleafeon
01-14-2014, 09:24 PM
Agreed

+1

Marten
01-15-2014, 09:27 AM
I've been considering the future of having a reputation system at all on the forums in recent days, and I think I'm currently leaning toward keeping the current positive-only system in place for a little while longer. I agree in general with those who say it's largely meaningless and has very little value, but I also hear those who like their positive rep, green bars, and the ability to give someone a quick thumbs-up, so if it's easily ignore-able, but makes some folks happy, what's the harm in keeping it.

Thank you.

sirgog
01-15-2014, 11:58 PM
Not really true, it was used mainly by people with an ax to grind and enough rep to say I don't like what you said and would neg rep them. In fact, if you did not have a at least a few reds in your bar, you never said anything important. A Good chunk of people used it as a means to harass/grief new people they disagreed with, or simply did not like.

It may have had a legitimate intention which was why it was put in, but in the hands of over emotional gamers on power trips whatever Legitimate use it had, was not accentuated for the most part, hence why it went away. If it was used in a legitimate and fair manner, it would still be around.


That sort of misuse of neg rep got forum warnings and infractions pretty quickly.

The main misuse of neg rep was people posting deliberately harmful advice (like back at the 20 cap when HP was super important and AC provided absolutely no damage mitigation, saying "Your Sorc should ignore Con entirely and push Dex for AC"), then reporting the neg rep they got to forum GMs.

I got a bit of neg rep back when I posted more and played more, especially if I posted on something contentious and especially if I advocated one of the following two opinions: "DDO should punish cheating of all types as harshly as it did at the 14-16 caps" and "It is a design failure if new content is beaten on its hardest difficulty on release day". But generally, those posts would get overall about balanced rep or slightly positive.

Posts that actually got negged hard were obvious flame posts, especially ones targetting new players ("HAHA OP U IZ NOOB! Y U NO LRN 2 FORTIFICATION?") or posts that provided advice that was widely considered awful (not contentious but downright awful, like "your first Greensteel weapon should be an Elemental Mastery morningstar").


The only other time you'd get negged a lot was if someone really, really disliked you in game and started stalking you on the forums, downranking all your posts. It didn't happen often, and there's ways to prevent that by changing the rep algorithm.

Ungood
01-16-2014, 07:45 AM
That sort of misuse of neg rep got forum warnings and infractions pretty quickly.

The main misuse of neg rep was people posting deliberately harmful advice (like back at the 20 cap when HP was super important and AC provided absolutely no damage mitigation, saying "Your Sorc should ignore Con entirely and push Dex for AC"), then reporting the neg rep they got to forum GMs.

I got a bit of neg rep back when I posted more and played more, especially if I posted on something contentious and especially if I advocated one of the following two opinions: "DDO should punish cheating of all types as harshly as it did at the 14-16 caps" and "It is a design failure if new content is beaten on its hardest difficulty on release day". But generally, those posts would get overall about balanced rep or slightly positive.

Posts that actually got negged hard were obvious flame posts, especially ones targetting new players ("HAHA OP U IZ NOOB! Y U NO LRN 2 FORTIFICATION?") or posts that provided advice that was widely considered awful (not contentious but downright awful, like "your first Greensteel weapon should be an Elemental Mastery morningstar").


The only other time you'd get negged a lot was if someone really, really disliked you in game and started stalking you on the forums, downranking all your posts. It didn't happen often, and there's ways to prevent that by changing the rep algorithm.

This has to be pretty much the strongest case of Rose colored Glasses tinted so much the person went blind.

Because, really, I honestly have no idea where you get these notions, not only is this totally off the wall incorrect and directly clashes with my own posting experience, which has been for 4 years now, you have left me wondering "Did you even post"

There is nothing correct about what you have said, nothing.

Neg Rep was a "I disagree with you" and a "I don't like you" and a "I can't rebuttal you" button for a great many posters.

Any ideals you had about it being used fairly, were, naive' at best, hence why it gladly went away. It did not bring a single good thing to this forum, at all.

Pos rep, at least makes a nice "Like" button.

and.. just for the record.

LOL, Neg rep was removed before discussions about exploits went viral. So, maybe its best you keep on trucking over at EvE.

Hafeal
01-16-2014, 08:00 AM
TNeg Rep was a "I disagree with you" and a "I don't like you" and a "I can't rebuttal you" button for a great many posters.



This was my perception as well.

If you ended up being at the worng end of a certain segment of the poster base on an issue, you could find yourself attacked and harassed from their little gang. It still happens - just without neg rep now.

Standal
01-18-2014, 10:20 AM
Though I thought it had some good uses, apparently negative reputation was more trouble than it's worth for Turbine to administer. I respect that.

However, light cannot exist without darkness. Without negative reputation as a counterbalance, positive reputation seems entirely pointless. Why not just scrap the reputation system entirely from the forums?

Why not just let it be what it should have been from the beginning? If I like your post, I pos rep it. If I don't, you get a neg. Turbine made it all very complicated by forcing you to have requirement x to pos rep, a larger requirement y to neg rep, appeals processes to remove neg rep, and potentially giving you a forum ban if you accumulated too much neg rep. Just let rep be whatever it is. If a post is out of line, use the report button.