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View Full Version : remove max turn amount



MadGardener
01-07-2014, 03:16 PM
I have recently built a turning cleric...have lots of fun but recently saw a real bottleneck to this build. While on an epic hard Fall of truth I happy turned 2 of the undead (even though there were more that was my maxed hit dice allowed) fortunately the wizard had undeath to death and made wave after wave of undead disappear, while the turning cleric continued to turn only two at a time.

I believe the old D&D hold back of max hit dice should be removed.

It takes a fair bit of effort to be a turning cleric and this limit should be removed.

I would like to also see some items (epic) as in end reward based on class to include turning effects, and a cleaned up system on what stacks and what does not (name convention)

FranOhmsford
01-07-2014, 03:32 PM
/Signed to Everything in the above post!

SirValentine
01-07-2014, 03:44 PM
fortunately the wizard had undeath to death and made wave after wave of undead disappear, while the turning cleric continued to turn only two at a time.


You know Undeath to Death is a Cleric spell, too, right?



I believe the old D&D hold back of max hit dice should be removed.

It takes a fair bit of effort to be a turning cleric and this limit should be removed.


I think that would make it way overpowered. They nerfed Wail so it couldn't just instakill dozens of mobs at once...and Wail had a save. Poofing dozens of undead at once without a save? Not likely, nor balanced.

There is a problem you've identified, but I don't see that as a good solution. Really, this is only one facet of a much bigger problem: bloated mob hit dice in general. They need to do a balance pass on mobs, and give them reasonable hit dice, caster levels, etc..



I would like to also see some items (epic) as in end reward based on class to include turning effects, and a cleaned up system on what stacks and what does not (name convention)


/signed to that part.

Also, things that give you Cleric or Pally caster levels (e.g., EDs) should also give you Turn levels.

Seikojin
01-07-2014, 04:26 PM
I think it should be lifted or removed as well. A lvl 28 specced cleric should be able to turn everything.

MadGardener
01-07-2014, 04:40 PM
You know Undeath to Death is a Cleric spell, too, right?

It is but I would find it very challenging to build an effective turning cleric and a DC based necro cleric. however U are right likely dc based cleric with undead to death would work better.

I think that would make it way overpowered. They nerfed Wail so it couldn't just instakill dozens of mobs at once...and Wail had a save. Poofing dozens of undead at once without a save? Not likely, nor balanced.


There is a problem you've identified, but I don't see that as a good solution. Really, this is only one facet of a much bigger problem: bloated mob hit dice in general. They need to do a balance pass on mobs, and give them reasonable hit dice, caster levels, etc..



Also, things that give you Cleric or Pally caster levels (e.g., EDs) should also give you Turn levels.

It is but I would find it very challenging to build an effective turning cleric and a DC based necro cleric. however U are right likely dc based cleric with undead to death would work better.

I am not suggesting removing the initial roll just the max number of hit dice turned. If u are poofing dozens of undead at a time they are likely trash mobs anyhow, but that said unlike wail that effected many things, turning is only undead and I believe orange named undead are immune and unlike wail that is available to many, many dc casters, turn clerics are very rare. I am unsure if it would have any effect on quest balancing but that should certainly be considered.


true true! but if they did this pass they would have to revisit many enhancements and destinies built for very big damage and casters with very high spell dc's and it seems clear (lest from items and epic destinies like blitz) that they are going with more and more hit dice etc to keep up. more likely they will adjust to make more things scale up.




if there is a different way I would love to hear about it. perhaps all it needs is significant amount of hit dice effected. however think the simple solution is just remove it

guardianx2009
01-07-2014, 05:18 PM
Turn is fine in EH.

You shouldn't be able to turn a whole lot more than 2-3 in EH. It has a very short cooldown so you can almost spam it (when it's not bugged) to kill off a group. I absolutely trounce the skellies in EH madstone before party even touches them.

Orange/mini bosses can be turned, but their CR is significantly bumped (+1.5 times I believe) making them very difficult and some, impossible to turn.

Jasparion
01-07-2014, 05:22 PM
I think it should be lifted or removed as well. A lvl 28 specced cleric should be able to turn everything.

I dont. Though I do think it should be more Viable.

axel15810
01-08-2014, 09:09 AM
Turning is completely fine in heroics and in epics up to epic hard. You can turn very well and reliably in this quests if you gear for it.

EE is tougher, and turning could probably use a slight boost as it is not being used at all at this level from my experience. But like others have said, if they boosted turning that much we would have the same problem we had before they nerfed wail...players no fail insta-killing everything while everyone else pikes. The game isn't perfect, but it's much better off when no fail insta-kills are not achievable in EE. And the game was vastly improved when wail was nerfed. It's better to have insta-kills underpowered than overpowered, because when they're overpowered it really ruins the fun for all other party members.

I think removing some of the EE deathwards is a better way to go about it.

MadGardener
01-09-2014, 10:28 AM
really? you thing turn undead is fine at epic levels?

Turn undead mechanics

Turning undead consists of the following checks:

1. Turning check: A charisma check (1d20 + your charisma modifier) determines the hit dice of the most powerful enemy you can affect (see table below).

2. Turning damage: Total number of hit dice you can affect is 2d6 + effective cleric level + charisma modifier Paladins get a -3 to level


not sure but epic undead are around 40 hit-dice?

take a cleric pick charisma instead of wisdom, grab feats and enhancement line, gear specific items and for that you get 2 undead with limited turns (yes you will likely have 20+ turn, 6 used for reactive heals, at lest 6 for aura a few more for bursts, and at the speed most groups go lucky to have one recharge).

it does work well in madstone (spam 3 quickly and a shrine near by), not so much in fall of truth where there can be lots and no shrine to recharge. on herioc you do turn large amounts (often all)

perhaps you like this and think thats great, but I would like to see this improved. I believe numbers are on my side, how many clerics are turning clerics? in our extended guild of over 100 accounts(2000 toons)...I was the 1st to try it and remain the only one.

if they do not remove the 2nd roll then in epic it should jump up to match the bloated hit dice of the epic undead.

I will likely keep my heal bot turn cleric as is, kinda like a flavour toon. But I would be much happier to be a undead killer, considering lost of dc casting and effectiveness verse anything not undead.

currently lv 24, Morninglord, 4th life,

as in all cases a builds relative worth is it relative to other toon builds. I just think this one needs a bump.

guardianx2009
01-09-2014, 03:28 PM
really? you thing turn undead is fine at epic levels?

Turn undead mechanics

Turning undead consists of the following checks:

1. Turning check: A charisma check (1d20 + your charisma modifier) determines the hit dice of the most powerful enemy you can affect (see table below).

2. Turning damage: Total number of hit dice you can affect is 2d6 + effective cleric level + charisma modifier Paladins get a -3 to level


I understand turn mechanics very well.



not sure but epic undead are around 40 hit-dice?


In EH, they are around upper 20 to mid 30s. EE are mid 30's to insane 60's. Once you reach mid 30 CR mobs, math dictates that you are pretty much guaranteed to only be able to turn 1 at a time. I don't see this as a problem.



take a cleric pick charisma instead of wisdom, grab feats and enhancement line, gear specific items and for that you get 2 undead with limited turns (yes you will likely have 20+ turn, 6 used for reactive heals, at lest 6 for aura a few more for bursts, and at the speed most groups go lucky to have one recharge).


This here is where your mistake is. Choosing to max CHA over WIS. You knew the turn mechanics going in, you would understand it is not worth dumping WIS for CHA.



it does work well in madstone (spam 3 quickly and a shrine near by), not so much in fall of truth where there can be lots and no shrine to recharge. on herioc you do turn large amounts (often all)


Your cleric has a multitude of tools of dealing with undead. You have undeath to undead, implosion. Then you have Angel form in EA. Turn Undead is just one of many tools in your arsenal. It isn't, and shouldn't be your ONLY tool.




perhaps you like this and think thats great, but I would like to see this improved. I believe numbers are on my side, how many clerics are turning clerics? in our extended guild of over 100 accounts(2000 toons)...I was the 1st to try it and remain the only one.


Most players don't understand turn mechanics. Truth is, you do not need to specialize to have effective turning. A modest investment in CHA (14-16) is all you need. Rest comes from spells, past life, enhancements, gear, and cleric levels.

Completely specializing, (investing in CHA over WIS and taking improved turning feats, as it seems in your case) doesn't yield much difference.



if they do not remove the 2nd roll then in epic it should jump up to match the bloated hit dice of the epic undead.

I will likely keep my heal bot turn cleric as is, kinda like a flavour toon. But I would be much happier to be a undead killer, considering lost of dc casting and effectiveness verse anything not undead.

currently lv 24, Morninglord, 4th life,

as in all cases a builds relative worth is it relative to other toon builds. I just think this one needs a bump.

This is like say I spec my build to specialize in light damage, then complain and say my searing light worked great in waterworks but is ineffective in epics because mobs have thousands of HP.

If you want to be undead killer, learn to use all your arsenal. Turns, Implosion, Undeath, and Angel Form (Ascendance).

I absolutely destroy undead in FoT. My groups often wonder where all that 'popcorn', or 'fireworks' sound is coming from when I start lighting up the draco-lich in Angel Form. It seems like I'm the only cleric that knows this: the damage you can do in angel form and a pair of Drow rapiers is immense. I've also taken down an undead dragon by myself because the arti simply couldn't grab aggro.

silinteresting
01-12-2014, 10:24 AM
I absolutely destroy undead in FoT. My groups often wonder where all that 'popcorn', or 'fireworks' sound is coming from when I start lighting up the draco-lich in Angel Form. It seems like I'm the only cleric that knows this: the damage you can do in angel form and a pair of Drow rapiers is immense. I've also taken down an undead dragon by myself because the arti simply couldn't grab aggro.

sry for not using quotes.

just a quick question could you please tell which rapiers
you use or better yet what is on the rapiers.

your friend sil :)

Flavilandile
01-12-2014, 12:39 PM
I don't have many problems in EH FoT, usually I turn 2 to 4 mobs... my problem is getting them all near me, since they prefer going for the fighters.

My build is hidden somewhere in the Enhancement Crash part of the L-Space Subforum since it's Flav' I'm using for that.

You can't expect to turn 10+ mobs ( if the rest of the party is doing things right you won't have that many trash mob anyway ) in there.

While Turning is linked to CHA, there's many items that can enhance it, and with the right set of items you can turn mobs as if you were 4 level higher than your level ( on top of all the feats/enhancements/destinies ).
Sadly with the Great Ghostbaning of Loot, they currently don't drop in chests.

guardianx2009
01-13-2014, 09:08 AM
I absolutely destroy undead in FoT. My groups often wonder where all that 'popcorn', or 'fireworks' sound is coming from when I start lighting up the draco-lich in Angel Form. It seems like I'm the only cleric that knows this: the damage you can do in angel form and a pair of Drow rapiers is immense. I've also taken down an undead dragon by myself because the arti simply couldn't grab aggro.

sry for not using quotes.

just a quick question could you please tell which rapiers
you use or better yet what is on the rapiers.

your friend sil :)

It's already mentioned: Drow Rapiers
http://ddowiki.com/images/Drow_Rapier_of_the_Weapon_Master.png

If you're wondering what's so special about this and how this obliterates undead, here's why:

Crit Profile
Drow weapons have the highest base crit profile in game (20%). Combined with improved critical, gives a crit profile for 40%. Angel form (Ascendance) procs Radiant Blast (http://ddowiki.com/page/Radiant_Blast) damage ON CRIT vs Undead. (That proc is the popcorn/fireworks sound you hear)

Maximize this with full TWF, doublestrike, DUAL wielding drow rapiers, haste and smite weakness debuff, and you get something like this:
http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae96/guardianx2009/DDO/Ascendance2_zps56152ab3.jpg (http://s961.photobucket.com/user/guardianx2009/media/DDO/Ascendance2_zps56152ab3.jpg.html)

This is my go-to undead killer weapon of choice for undead that can't be turned/imploded (ie: EE content). It is tons of fun to rip up the undead with. Particularly so in FOT, CITW, EE madstone and EE Sable.

MadGardener
01-13-2014, 09:45 AM
Thank you for the conversation.
some agreed and some did not.

the current toon I have for turn testing (lv 24) has a base 16 chr +2 tome + ship and 7+2 exceptional chr (eveningstar trade in items). crafted a silver flame and eternal faith item, two feats, extra turn and improved turn (which like many feats is pretty minor and perhaps should scale in some way, but that's a different story). TR into a morning lord for an additional 6 to turn and any turn effect results in destruction (the enhancement line in iconic morning lord and reason for the turning cleric) 4th life wiz/Fvs/ and cleric past lives. I believe this is a fairly strong base and not really lacking. (hopefully I got all the pieces, doing this from memory)

It not that turning doesn't work, it seemed to me chocked by and old paper and pencil system on 2nd roll for max turn dice effected and was developed for heroic levels, where I might add this did a very effective heroic undead control. I felt that with this limit removed or modified this would be a great assist for epic clerics.

Overall I believe some of the comments are correct about moving towards a full specked turn cleric is pointless, base investment will give you about the same as a full investment vs epic undead. although it is still a fun build and would recommend it for you basic heal bot to add some flavour.


note: if you want to comment on build strength do not pull out the completionist, maxed destiny line and say how great you are, everyones maxed out completionist, uber geared, on best destiny line are great.
in fact I felt using a multilife toon was a bit of a cheat to test this toon as it was, but think a couple TR lives are not uncommon now and I wanted a solid Morning lord build to run with and test.

again Thank you for the discussion

MadGardener
01-13-2014, 09:47 AM
thanks for the cool pic ....great damage

think i see a rebuild for my FvS

would this work for my Pally? (currently collecting dust)

zwiebelring
01-13-2014, 10:23 AM
Completely specializing, (investing in CHA over WIS and taking improved turning feats, as it seems in your case) doesn't yield much difference.
And that's why Turn Undead is stupid in DDO. While it is one of many tools, it is the iconic class feature and even got feats to improve it but. But turning only one mob on epic elite vs. heroic levels, where you destroy hordes does not seem balanced.

Turn Undead uses Burst charges. In epic elite that is important and a balance factor for either getting heals + dps undead or just destroy them but leave hp ticking up by aura or none healing at all. A specialized Turn Undead cleric should be able turn everything except bosses. The idea of min./max.ing to make Turn Undead useful despite no max. CHA is fine as in turning one epic elite mob maybe, but someone, who pushes the limit should be blasting them (4+ mobs at least) immediately for the trade-off of losing spell DCs.

In short: all past life feats + specialization to compensate 5-6 CHA points and affecting only one single epic elite mob??? No thanks. Not efficient enough in any case regarding min./max.ing.

guardianx2009
01-13-2014, 10:31 AM
Overall I believe some of the comments are correct about moving towards a full specked turn cleric is pointless, base investment will give you about the same as a full investment vs epic undead. although it is still a fun build and would recommend it for you basic heal bot to add some flavour.


A full turn specc'ed (3 past lives, feats, etc), morninglord Cleric has the advantage of being able to turn up to mobs CR50 to CR51(?) thanks to Morninglord's +6 turn level enhancement. Turning level is very important since it determines whether your turn is going to work or not at all vs. a particular undead.

So your full turn specc'ed morninglord can 100% no fail turn CR45 mobs (Zombies in EE Black Loch, and maybe Death knights in lords of dust) where-areas my regular 3 past lives Human Cleric cannot. Being able to no-fail, insta-kill a mob with 8-10k HP (that many classes have problems with, due to SR, DR, 100% fort etc) is no joke. You just can't expect to kill a whole pack of them.

If turbine ever throws a bone to convert cleric caster levels to Cleric Turn levels, then you'll be able to reach CR56. Which means you can even turn the skeles in EE Madstone. That would be quite a feat.



thanks for the cool pic ....great damage

think i see a rebuild for my FvS

would this work for my Pally? (currently collecting dust)

I already listed all components needed. It is up to you to decide if your Pally fits the bill.. and if you want to play him in EA.

Here's another EA tip that's not well known:
Strike Down - This smite has a 15second cooldown, does 500 light damage and is enhanced by TWF/dblstrike. This means you can do over 1000 light damage, for free every 15 seconds. Drawback is you must upkeep a stack of 10 Righteous Fervor. This little wand here is spam friendly. It helps you charge up to 10 stacks in very little time:
http://ddowiki.com/images/Eternal_Wand_of_Cure_Minor_Wounds.jpg

Theragorn
03-25-2014, 06:53 AM
I have recently built a turning cleric...have lots of fun but recently saw a real bottleneck to this build. While on an epic hard Fall of truth I happy turned 2 of the undead (even though there were more that was my maxed hit dice allowed) fortunately the wizard had undeath to death and made wave after wave of undead disappear, while the turning cleric continued to turn only two at a time.

I believe the old D&D hold back of max hit dice should be removed.

It takes a fair bit of effort to be a turning cleric and this limit should be removed.

I would like to also see some items (epic) as in end reward based on class to include turning effects, and a cleaned up system on what stacks and what does not (name convention)

Having been around since 2006, i've seen a lot of changes in this game over that length of time. As the level cap has increased and the strength of the mobs with it, there are certain things that I have to sit back and scratch my head at. Turn undead limits is one of them. While I agreed with the WOtB change, leaving turn undead as is seems limited in a fashion. In my honest opinion they should change it to wis not cha for one (although think that would go against P&P If I remember right but when have they ever gotten it to P&P standards). The limit on amount of undead should increase as you level every 10 levels it should increase by 1 - 2 depending on how many levels of cleric you have or 1 for paladin. The formula for deciding a successful turn should be reexamined as while that formula worked 4 years ago when the level cap was 14 all the way back to when the level cap was 10 (well 9 for most people) that formula I feel is out of touch with today's DDO.

Theragorn
03-25-2014, 07:04 AM
In my honest opinion, if you are speccing as turn cleric specifically, you should be able to turn even the hardest dungeons (with limits within reason). If not that is the equivalent of telling a trap spec rogue that they can disable any trap but they have to pick and choose as they have limited number of disables (granted prob shouldn't give them that idea lol) and no matter how high you get your disable, you may or may not get that trap box that you chose.

Rhunellin
03-25-2014, 01:11 PM
Hello,

Actually how is the max amount please. I saw my number max was down 15 to 12, but i never understand why.