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whomhead
01-07-2014, 06:45 AM
Which feat do you all think is the most useful on a monkcher (16 monk/2 fight/2 rang that spends most time in melee and pulls out a bow for situational/burst DPS): IC: ranged, Improved Precise Shot, Vorpal strikes, or Blinding speed? I can only take three of those on my current build.

I am reluctant to do this, but I could also drop precise shot in addition to IPS and take improved sunder in addition to the other 3 feats listed above.

Thanks!

In the interest of completeness, here is my full list of taken feats:
power attack
cleave
stunning fist
zen archery
point blank shot
great cleave
10k stars
precise shot (or improved sunder if changed as above)
IC: blunt
manyshot
iTWF
gTWF
overwhelming critical

and then the ones listed above

blerkington
01-07-2014, 07:04 AM
Which feat do you all think is the most useful on a monkcher (16 monk/2 fight/2 rang that spends most time in melee and pulls out a bow for situational/burst DPS): IC: ranged, Improved Precise Shot, Vorpal strikes, or Blinding speed? I can only take three of those on my current build.

I am reluctant to do this, but I could also drop precise shot in addition to IPS and take improved sunder in addition to the other 3 feats listed above.

Thanks!

Hi,

If you have manyshot, I think there's a very strong argument for also having IPS. With both of those feats you can put out a lot of damage if you can get your targets into alignment.

Providing your gear layout allows you to equip a pair of goatskin boots (and you can find some), blinding speed might actually be the least useful feat in your list. The boots increase both your melee and ranged attack speed, and even the epic hard version puts you very close to the equivalent of permanent haste.

If you drop precise shot you may as well start leaving your bow at home. Without that feat you will hit anything between you and your target instead of your target, so your bow loses a lot of usefulness.

The archer's focus damage bonus that comes with the precise shot feat is also very useful for making your manyshot even stronger if you can afford not to move and let it build up before using your manyshot.

I hope that this helps.

Thanks.

whomhead
01-07-2014, 07:46 AM
I hadn't considered the Goatskin boots. I should be able to shuffle some items and fit them in as my boot slot is currently rather weak. Only problem is that I'm not sure I can even afford the EH version, much less EE. Would it still be worth dropping blinding speed if I only am using EN? My gut says no.

Otherwise your thinking matches closely with my own. I figured precise shot would be more or less mandatory for functional bow usage, hence my reluctance to drop that one.

Still looking for more opinions on this, if anyone else is willing to chime in.

cdr
01-07-2014, 08:31 AM
Goatskin are good for melee, useless for ranged. Goatskin is 15% ranged, Pinion is 20%, haste/blinding is 22%. If you only use Pinion you're "only" down 2% attack speed when not hasted I suppose.

More importantly, W.T.F are you doing on a monkcher "most time in melee and pulls out a bow for situational/burst DPS"? 10KS+Manyshot means you should be ranging 80% of the time at minimum.

whomhead
01-07-2014, 09:17 AM
Goatskin are good for melee, useless for ranged. Goatskin is 15% ranged, Pinion is 20%, haste/blinding is 22%. If you only use Pinion you're "only" down 2% attack speed when not hasted I suppose.

More importantly, W.T.F are you doing on a monkcher "most time in melee and pulls out a bow for situational/burst DPS"? 10KS+Manyshot means you should be ranging 80% of the time at minimum.

Thanks for pointing that out about pinion VS goatskin. I do use pinion when ranged so that's one more nail in the coffin for those boots.

I choose to go melee most of the time primarily because I just prefer the play style. Stunning fist, quivering palm, great cleave and fists of iron are fun to cycle through in melee, and quite effective as well. I normally bust out the bow for a furyshot boss beatdown and whenever manyshot is off timer. I am admittedly not optimized for best 10k stars usage (only 42 wis in water stance with pinion out), but I typically find the DPS for it to lag behind what I can do with wraps, Unbridled Fury aside, of course. 10k stars for me puts out an average of ~2 to 2.5 arrows per shot, which compares rather poorly to hasted unarmed attack speeds and 90+% off-hand procs. Add in QP, stunning fist, and the rest, and 10k stars seems rather lackluster. That's just my opinion/experience of course, yours obviously differs.

Also, while I appreciate the input, you never answered my original question, which is the only thing I really care about! :-)

cdr
01-07-2014, 10:38 AM
Reroll into a melee build if you're not going to range on a ranged build would be my answer.

whomhead
01-07-2014, 10:54 AM
Reroll into a melee build if you're not going to range on a ranged build would be my answer.

Your opinion has been noted and filed accordingly.

Violith
01-07-2014, 11:52 AM
That is utter nonsense. First, It is factually incorrect as I do ranged. The burst DPS is great, and I make use of it. Second, it is completely unhelpful, not to mention off topic and rude. How I play is none of your business, especially given that the question was about swapping one feat around. Third, when has "re-roll, noob" ever been helpful advice?

If this is your idea of help, then I don't need it. Thanks all the same.

whats your build order and stat bases+level ups?

since your taking OC your base str needs to be 23 by that point so whats is your str/dex/wis bases?, I suppose dex only needs to be 19 for IPS. which with tomes can be gotten rather easily but OC with a 23 str is hard to get if your going wisdom based (which im guessing you are with 15+monk levels for QP and stunning fist) unless this is a 2nd/3rd lifer who already has tomes active, that could change feat orders over a 1st lifer as they kick in at the level they become active rather then a 1st lifer who has to wait till after that level is taken before being allowed to use them.

so then if your merely after burst ranged DPS, then Improved Precise Shot is the way to go as it'd let you hit more then 1 target. if your more concerened about single target burst dps then pick up IC:R, and use archers focus. (note you cant have Archers focus and IPS active at same time, normally I'd say get IC:R no matter what, but since your strapped for feats it'd be kinda hard to pick it up. course GTWF IMO isnt needed on an unarmed monk, so you could swap that out for IC:R but, thats up to you.

additional melee DPS I'd definately go with vorpal strikes. IMP sunder isnt that great, sure the fort debuff is nice but by the time its useful the mob could be dead already from dps. and blinding speed while is a nice feat, its mainly used for saving PP, since your can easily get haste pots/clickies, (goatskin EE is hard to get but EH isnt that bad I actually just picked one up the other day while duoing the chain with my brother).

your toon is yours to build as you want, but I believe most monkers build 6ranger to pick up manyshot/presice shot/twf/itwf/rapidshot/bowstr for free, and thus bypassing the requirement to have PBS for manyshot, since you'd be meleeing in that range it isnt really needed, but then you'd lose QP.

Violith
01-07-2014, 12:09 PM
Thanks for pointing that out about pinion VS goatskin. I do use pinion when ranged so that's one more nail in the coffin for those boots.

I choose to go melee most of the time primarily because I just prefer the play style. Stunning fist, quivering palm, great cleave and fists of iron are fun to cycle through in melee, and quite effective as well. I normally bust out the bow for a furyshot boss beatdown and whenever manyshot is off timer. I am admittedly not optimized for best 10k stars usage (only 42 wis in water stance with pinion out), but I typically find the DPS for it to lag behind what I can do with wraps, Unbridled Fury aside, of course. 10k stars for me puts out an average of ~2 to 2.5 arrows per shot, which compares rather poorly to hasted unarmed attack speeds and 90+% off-hand procs. Add in QP, stunning fist, and the rest, and 10k stars seems rather lackluster. That's just my opinion/experience of course, yours obviously differs.

Also, while I appreciate the input, you never answered my original question, which is the only thing I really care about! :-)

if you build for range, 10k+manyshot can do alot of DPS, they have an odd sharing of a timer but if timed right it can be active most of the time (I believe its 10kstars (puts self on 60sec timer and Manyshot on 30sec timer), after running out (since 10k last 30sec) use manyshot (10k still has 30sec left on timer, puts self on 2min timer), 10sec after manyshot running out (since it lasts 20sec) 10kstars again. so for 1min20sec you have burst dps active, with a small 10sec window of not having it, and it can be repeated 1min later (when 10kstars gets off timer again, manyshot should have 30sec left on time so repeat the above since by the time 10k runs out manyshot should be off timer). so for over half the time your battling you can get 2-4 arrows, which with IC:R and IPS or archers focus can add up rather quickly (which also with 6 ranger you can go into a ranged enhancement tree and pick up slayer arrow or some shots which add more DPS.

but yea, if you build for melee, and like meleeing then I dont see the point in going ranged at all, not sure how much burst DPS manyshot is when you gotta take time switching weapons and stances. when with a monk who has decent Stun and QP, can pick up vorpal strikes and get better single target DPS with that (vorpal adds a 100dmg if they're above 1k hp, or kills them if they're lower, and the 100dmg if higher is increased by stun +50%, it also stacks with damage by items with manslayer (ring of manslayer / drow smoke goggles) those with a monks attack speed can easily overcome the burst dps gained by a bow if not built for it IMO.

whomhead
01-07-2014, 12:36 PM
whats your build order and stat bases+level ups?

...

I believe most monkers build 6ranger to pick up manyshot/presice shot/twf/itwf/rapidshot/bowstr for free, and thus bypassing the requirement to have PBS for manyshot, since you'd be meleeing in that range it isnt really needed, but then you'd lose QP.

Str is 17 base + 4 tome + 2 levels = 23 base
Dex is 14 base + 5 tome = 19 base
Wis is 17 base + 4 tome + 4 levels = 25 base

The last life on this toon was your pretty standard 12/6/2 monkcher. It was great, and I understand quite well why people play them. But after playing it at cap for a while I decided I really missed having access to quivering palm and, as stated earlier, I like to play melee more of the time. I tried to devise a way to do a little bit of everything as I really like the synergy of manyshot + unbridled fury combined with the flexibility of putting the bow away for more melee.

I am intentionally trying to do as much as possible with this character, as it is the one I play 95% of the time. More options = more fun for me.

If I find that I can't get it to work as well as I want, then I will modify it accordingly. Right now I am trying to find the best way to fit everything in with the limited feats available. I want a versatile character that can step into any group or solo and still be great. It is a challenge, yes, but this version feels really close. I'm not sure I have the gear to pull off the quivering palm DCs I want, but that's the goal for the time being, and it gives me something to work towards.

Thank you for the advice on the feats. From the advice given here I am leaning towards taking out blinding speed as it is the one that can most easily be replaced with gear. I'm content with only 14% haste from an item until I can get something better.

blerkington
01-07-2014, 05:59 PM
Goatskin are good for melee, useless for ranged. Goatskin is 15% ranged, Pinion is 20%, haste/blinding is 22%. If you only use Pinion you're "only" down 2% attack speed when not hasted I suppose.

More importantly, W.T.F are you doing on a monkcher "most time in melee and pulls out a bow for situational/burst DPS"? 10KS+Manyshot means you should be ranging 80% of the time at minimum.

Hi,

I love the internet. No territory between extremes here.

If the OP has a Pinion I imagine he would be using it. If he doesn't, the difference in alacrity is 7% for the period he is in manyshot if he has the boots equipped.

Not a huge difference, and certainly not "useless". Perhaps if he is really concerned about it he could swig a haste potion or use a clicky beforehand.

Thanks.

Pilgrim1
01-07-2014, 10:50 PM
So if I understand your build right your basically a QP + SF monk that runs in FoTW and uses a bow for room clearing + boss fights with adrenalin?

If that is so consider dropping the entire OC line and IC:blunt. As silly as it sounds these feats may not be that good for you.

PA vs Precision, while this boosts your damage per hit you are also likely seeing an increase in glancing blows by 2. This means in other things, stunning fist and quivering palm landing less often and your fury manyshots landing 3 boosted arrows instead of 4. This does not even include the 25% fort bypass.

OC: if your primary method for killing mobs is QP then doing melee damage is secondary. During boss fights with adrenalin having a boosted crit on a 19 and 20 doesn't increase your adrenaline strikes for the rest of the arrows.

Cleave lines: fun with blitz, so-so with unarmed melee, useless for ranged. kinda in between feats.

IC: blunt: If your running in water stance most of the time (to have better DC's) and you droped OC your weapon is a 19-20/x2. Basicly your weapon crit profile sucks so bad you might have better dps with vorpral fists instead. If your in earth stance with OC then a 19-20/x4 is solid as it adds 3 more hits/20 attacks.

These are just some different ideas to consider. I would run with blinding speed if you can, its nice to have it. If you cant get those boots maybe try for jordgorns collar from wight dragon in tor, it also has haste.

whomhead
01-08-2014, 09:10 PM
So if I understand your build right your basically a QP + SF monk that runs in FoTW and uses a bow for room clearing + boss fights with adrenalin?

If that is so consider dropping the entire OC line and IC:blunt. As silly as it sounds these feats may not be that good for you.

PA vs Precision, while this boosts your damage per hit you are also likely seeing an increase in glancing blows by 2. This means in other things, stunning fist and quivering palm landing less often and your fury manyshots landing 3 boosted arrows instead of 4. This does not even include the 25% fort bypass.

OC: if your primary method for killing mobs is QP then doing melee damage is secondary. During boss fights with adrenalin having a boosted crit on a 19 and 20 doesn't increase your adrenaline strikes for the rest of the arrows.

Cleave lines: fun with blitz, so-so with unarmed melee, useless for ranged. kinda in between feats.

IC: blunt: If your running in water stance most of the time (to have better DC's) and you droped OC your weapon is a 19-20/x2. Basicly your weapon crit profile sucks so bad you might have better dps with vorpral fists instead. If your in earth stance with OC then a 19-20/x4 is solid as it adds 3 more hits/20 attacks.

These are just some different ideas to consider. I would run with blinding speed if you can, its nice to have it. If you cant get those boots maybe try for jordgorns collar from wight dragon in tor, it also has haste.

Good advice, all the way around. Thanks!

You basically have the build right, but I also like to run in LD as well as FotW. As I said, I like options. And blitz is so much fun when soloing, which I do most of the time. That said, I epic TRed to get colors of the queen and have to generate 6 mil exp in Fury, so I guess I am required to play as you described, even though I don't want to. In all, however, I'm still reluctant to give up the option to blitz.

I run almost exclusively in earth stance. The combo of survivability and DPS is just too much for me to pass up. I see how a character solely focused in QP would be excellent using the build you describe, but I am afraid that it would be too much of a one-trick pony for my tastes. I will keep it in mind though. I also have to say that I find great cleave to be extremely useful unarmed on its own merits. If your character is a good race/sex for it, then it can do a lot of fun things in addition to just unlocking a blitz.

I'm still a bit torn on dropping IC:ranged VS blinding speed at this point. I am leaning heavily towards dropping blinding speed as it can be replaced with gear, whereas nothing else can double pinion's base crit range. There is still a benefit to IC:r when blitzing. While a blitz manyshot isn't quite as devastating as a furyshot, it is still kind of like whipping out a Gatling gun and going nuts with it.

whomhead
01-09-2014, 10:08 AM
I'm still a bit torn on dropping IC:ranged VS blinding speed at this point. I am leaning heavily towards dropping blinding speed as it can be replaced with gear, whereas nothing else can double pinion's base crit range. There is still a benefit to IC:r when blitzing. While a blitz manyshot isn't quite as devastating as a furyshot, it is still kind of like whipping out a Gatling gun and going nuts with it.

Though now I'm considering if Precision wouldn't be of more value than either IC:ranged or blinding speed for me. The point from Pilgrim above about more misses + more crits from reduced fort would go will with the major goal of having very large (for a monk) burst damage from criticals.

peng
01-09-2014, 03:22 PM
I've been considering a similar build for a while actually. You get to combine 2 fotm builds: wis based monkcher and wis based 16/2/2 qp monk. You have top-notch burst dps in manyshot and 10k stars with haste boost (possibly double boosting if human, helf, or pdk), good melee dps and stunning fist/qp dc's.

Unfortunately, this requires a boatload of feats and tomes. I'm thinking of going human or pdk for the extra feat, heal amp, and double boostage.

Feats: 7 heroic, 1 human, 2 fighter, 3 monk, 3 free ranger, 3 epic, 2 ed

Ranger:
Bow str
Rapid shot
Twf

PA
Cleave
Great cleave
Itwf
Gtwf
Stun fist
Imp crit blunt

Pbs
Zen archery
Prec shot
Imp prec shot
Many shot
10k stars
Imp crit ranged

Overwhelming crit
Imp martial arts (if it's been fixed to affect zen archers)

Perfect twf
Tactician


There are certainly other very useful feats to take if I could figure out what to drop (dodge, gm of forms, precision, pl monk, and vorpal strikes, combat archery, or blinding speed).


If that is so consider dropping the entire OC line and IC:blunt. As silly as it sounds these feats may not be that good for you.

PA vs Precision, while this boosts your damage per hit you are also likely seeing an increase in glancing blows by 2. This means in other things, stunning fist and quivering palm landing less often and your fury manyshots landing 3 boosted arrows instead of 4. This does not even include the 25% fort bypass.

OC: if your primary method for killing mobs is QP then doing melee damage is secondary. During boss fights with adrenalin having a boosted crit on a 19 and 20 doesn't increase your adrenaline strikes for the rest of the arrows.

Cleave lines: fun with blitz, so-so with unarmed melee, useless for ranged. kinda in between feats.

IC: blunt: If your running in water stance most of the time (to have better DC's) and you droped OC your weapon is a 19-20/x2. Basicly your weapon crit profile sucks so bad you might have better dps with vorpral fists instead. If your in earth stance with OC then a 19-20/x4 is solid as it adds 3 more hits/20 attacks.

These are just some different ideas to consider. I would run with blinding speed if you can, its nice to have it. If you cant get those boots maybe try for jordgorns collar from wight dragon in tor, it also has haste.

Using a pinion and goatskin boots/jorg collar should be enough to not need blinding speed. At worst you lose 2% alacrity while ranging or just drink a haste pot before you manyshot.

OC adds a pretty significant dps boost for both melee and ranged, even during in a furyshot. Not all your arrows are adrenalines, and getting a x5 crit (19-20) on an adrenaline arrow is nothing to sneeze at either.

Cleaving on an unarmed monk (with the right race/gender) is just plain fun, and is a nice way to build up ki fast: run up to a group, double cleave, qp, stun, beat-down, repeat.

Even a qp monk needs melee dps, so I wouldn't drop imp crit unarmed. However, if I could fit in precision, I would dearly like to.

whomhead
01-09-2014, 05:03 PM
Feats: 7 heroic, 1 human, 2 fighter, 3 monk, 3 free ranger, 3 epic, 2 ed

You've laid out exactly the build I'm using, except I hadn't been planning to take IMA, though see below. I went human male for good great cleaves, damage boost and an extra feat as well as 10% heal amp.

I was not aware that Imp. martial arts worked now with bows. Given that it would benefit both unarmed and ranged attacks, I think I will have to take that over vorpal strikes. That makes me consider that I will also have to find a way to twist in Dance of Flowers. Looks like Brace for Impact will be getting the boot.


Even a qp monk needs melee dps, so I wouldn't drop imp crit unarmed. However, if I could fit in precision, I would dearly like to.

What do you think about taking Precision over IC:R? The 19-20 crits will be much larger than the lower rolls opened up by IC:R because both GM earth and OC only work on a 19 or 20. That's has me lowering the value of IC:R enough to feel pretty good about leaving it off in favor of Precision. Still would go without blinding speed under that scenario.

peng
01-10-2014, 01:19 AM
I'm not sure if IMA is worming for bows, but last time I tested, a dance of flowers did for zen archers (didn't show up on weapon description, but testing on airship dummy seemed to confirm it worked).

Imp crit ranged, with master earth stance and OC, adds to pinion's 19-20/x5 an additional 17-20/x3. The average damage multiplier change is from x27 to x31 (assuming you only miss on a 1 and confirm all crits). This doesn't add as much during furyshot (but still affects the non-adrenaline arrows), but non-fury manyshots and 10k stars are still boosted.

How much dps precision adds depends on a lot of factors. Are you missing/grazing on a 2 or higher? How much fortification does the mob have? Are you dealing sneak attack damage? And what is your crit profile? Did you take the t5 shintao enhancement violence begets violence? (whenever I think of dps calcs involving this I get a headache and immediately think of something else instead). The problem with choosing between precision and imp crit is that each one makes the other better.

Assuming no sneak damage, only missing on a 1, and a mob with n% fort with imp crit or n-25% with precision and no imp crit would give us...

Crit damage:
12x base x (1-n) (imp crit)
vs
8x base x (1-.25-n) (precision)

At 50% mob fort (25% with precision) these are equal. More fort favors precision, less fort favors imp crit. Sneak attack damage and missing/grazing push the scale more in favor of precision, while adrenaline and on-crit/burst damage effects like arcane archer force arrows imbue at t3 favor imp crit.

Also, if you prefer power attack for melee, you have the additional issue of switching stances all the time.

Anywho, either is a good choice, but if you can find something else to drop, or bribe a Dev to give you 5 extra feats or so, that might be better.

P.s. another build option is 15 monk/3 ranger/2 fighter. You lose an unarmed die step, adamantine fists, and 1 reflex/fort save for more ranger cores and soul magic (not that you have all that many ap to go around. Feats aren't the only things in short supply).

peng
01-14-2014, 06:29 PM
I thought of a name for the 16/2/2 monk/fighter/ranger quivering palm monkcher:

The Quivering Quiver. qq for short :-)

Pilgrim1
01-14-2014, 06:46 PM
I wonder what kind of QP DC you could get and still reach the 23 str requirement for overwhelming critical. Outside of a half orc i think it would be rather hard to get thoes nice DC 70+ QP that's neaded for EE.

Another thing to consiter is what destiny your in, cleaves lend themselves to LD, manyshot lends itself to FoTW, and QP is best in GMoF. I think you should run some numbers on your wisdom and see what you can manage.

PS don't forget that half orc can give +3dc to QP as well.

LavidDynch
01-15-2014, 12:10 AM
I wonder what kind of QP DC you could get and still reach the 23 str requirement for overwhelming critical. Outside of a half orc i think it would be rather hard to get thoes nice DC 70+ QP that's neaded for EE.

Another thing to consiter is what destiny your in, cleaves lend themselves to LD, manyshot lends itself to FoTW, and QP is best in GMoF. I think you should run some numbers on your wisdom and see what you can manage.

PS don't forget that half orc can give +3dc to QP as well.

non-horc/dwarf would land a self buffed 69-70 outside of GMOF. That is pretty much maxed out(PL,feats,etc), good bad? I wouldn't build for it.

and to all those posts above that dream of some bow/palmer build that has major KI problems written all over it.. if it wasn't for KI!

peng
01-15-2014, 12:34 AM
Assuming human or pdk for the extra feat and other goodies, +5 str tome, and +4 wis/dex tomes, and a fighter past life (what my monk has) on a 36 pt build...

stats:
16 str +5 tome +2 level = 23 for oc
15 dex +4 tome = 19 for imp prec shot
13 con +4 tome
8 int +3/4 tome (don't remember)
17 wis +4 tome +5 level = 26
8 cha +3/4 tome (ditto)

26 + 11/3/1 items (assuming I snag +11 goggles) + 4 enhancements = 45 wis
Situational: 45 + 2 ship + 2 Yugo + 3 action surge + 1 litany (swap with prowess*) + 5 gmof = 58 wis

QP dc: 10 base + 8 levels + 1 pl fighter + 2 tactician + 3 fighter enh + 10 item + 5/6 exc tactics + 6 leg tactics + 17 wis (+ 7 situational wis + 3 gmof)
= 62 - 73 (+ 1-3 if I can get better than +10 shattering wraps)

Mid 60s buffed in dread/fury, and low 70s in gmof should be doable. Horc would get +2-4 (+3 sunder enh, +2 wis lvl ups, -1 wis enh, -3 wis action surge), but would lose a feat (if I could get 5 more feats I'd be happy), some heal amp, dmg boost that stacks with haste boost, and 2 skills per level (what can I say, I like my skill points).


I see this build as a psuedo-juggernaut. It doesn't have the same self heals or buffs, but it takes advantage of the best of ranged (imp prec shot with manyshot/10k stars) and melee (qp/stun). It takes full advantage of the bonus feats from monk, fighter, and ranger. It uses feats/stats that help both (overwhelming crit, imp martial arts, master of stone, wis for dc's and 10k stars, decent str for damage).

Until I saw this thread I was looking forward to my next 16+ lvls monk, but sad that I'd have to put away my bow. Now I can have my cake and shoot 4 at my enemies too (my enemies would get stale fruit cake though).

whomhead
01-15-2014, 08:24 AM
non-horc/dwarf would land a self buffed 69-70 outside of GMOF. That is pretty much maxed out(PL,feats,etc), good bad? I wouldn't build for it.

I'm curious about all the folks saying they wouldn't build something like this. Presumably you're imagining a character that only holds a bow... most likely some sort of more typical 12/6/2 type of build. I admit that I'm giving up some effectiveness in QP by going for overwhelming critical (realistically though it is only a 3-4 point swing in wisdom, so 1.5-2 DC), but beyond that I don't see what this 16/2/2 lacks over a 12/6/2. It has full ranged capabilities (minus combat archery, but I doubt most monkchers invest so heavily in dex) with the option to put the bow away and start punching stuff. At very little cost.

I just fail to see what is so horrible about more options. So please, enlighten me.

LavidDynch
01-15-2014, 11:45 AM
I'm curious about all the folks saying they wouldn't build something like this. Presumably you're imagining a character that only holds a bow... most likely some sort of more typical 12/6/2 type of build. I admit that I'm giving up some effectiveness in QP by going for overwhelming critical (realistically though it is only a 3-4 point swing in wisdom, so 1.5-2 DC), but beyond that I don't see what this 16/2/2 lacks over a 12/6/2. It has full ranged capabilities (minus combat archery, but I doubt most monkchers invest so heavily in dex) with the option to put the bow away and start punching stuff. At very little cost.

I just fail to see what is so horrible about more options. So please, enlighten me.

okay.

1. KI problems. QP costs KI, 10k stars costs KI. Bows doesn't generate KI on hits.
2. QP works only on trash and is single target. A good monkchers job is to IPS as much trash as possible to maximize dmg and fury procs.
3. 69-70 DC on QP will see a lot of saves in tougher epics.

Pilgrim1
01-15-2014, 12:11 PM
okay.

1. KI problems. QP costs KI, 10k stars costs KI. Bows doesn't generate KI on hits.
2. QP works only on trash and is single target. A good monkchers job is to IPS as much trash as possible to maximize dmg and fury procs.
3. 69-70 DC on QP will see a lot of saves in tougher epics.

4. only 2 ranger prevents taking slayer arrow from enhancements.

In terms of ranged damage i think this build loses quite a bit from a pure archer toon, however I think you should be looking at it the other way around, what does this toon lose compared to a pure QP focused build. If your find that the answer is only a few points of DC i think its totaly worth it.

I have a build very similar to this and I am enjoying it.

whomhead
01-18-2014, 08:56 PM
Thanks all for elaborating. I can't necessarily disagree with any of the reasoning posted, as they are all valid reasons to build a more standard 12/6/2. That said, I do have some thoughts in response...



1. KI problems. QP costs KI, 10k stars costs KI. Bows doesn't generate KI on hits.
2. QP works only on trash and is single target. A good monkchers job is to IPS as much trash as possible to maximize dmg and fury procs.
3. 69-70 DC on QP will see a lot of saves in tougher epics.

1) You are correct that ki is a scarcer resource on this build. Ki awareness is key (pun intended, sadly) lest you end up needing some in a critical situation. That said, I find it entirely manageable.

2) You can still do both. By your own logic, IPS is at its best when you have a room full of mobs, but what do you do when the room has only 1-3 mobs that don't line up well? I switch quickly to wraps and adapt to whatever situation is at hand.

3) a 69-70 QP DC is very, very good. You will see some saves in the toughest EEs, but that's it. That DC mows through content up the very highest difficulty quest, and even there it is useful. Also, that 69-70 DC is still better than a 0 DC when you don't even have the ability.


4. only 2 ranger prevents taking slayer arrow from enhancements.

In terms of ranged damage i think this build loses quite a bit from a pure archer toon, however I think you should be looking at it the other way around, what does this toon lose compared to a pure QP focused build. If your find that the answer is only a few points of DC i think its totaly worth it.

I have a build very similar to this and I am enjoying it.

The point on slayer arrows is fair. That is a definite loss.

With regards to losses compared to a pure QP monk, as I said previously, it loses approximately 2-3 DC. This is significant, under certain circumstances. But in the same way as I have to consider the losses compared to pure, you have to consider the benefits of manyshot and IPS compared to a pure monk. They are substantial, I assure you. Consider single target red-named DPS increase from a furyshot on top of multi-target IPS DPS when the situation is suitable for it.

LavidDynch
01-19-2014, 12:40 AM
Thanks all for elaborating. I can't necessarily disagree with any of the reasoning posted, as they are all valid reasons to build a more standard 12/6/2. That said, I do have some thoughts in response...



1) You are correct that ki is a scarcer resource on this build. Ki awareness is key (pun intended, sadly) lest you end up needing some in a critical situation. That said, I find it entirely manageable.

2) You can still do both. By your own logic, IPS is at its best when you have a room full of mobs, but what do you do when the room has only 1-3 mobs that don't line up well? I switch quickly to wraps and adapt to whatever situation is at hand.

3) a 69-70 QP DC is very, very good. You will see some saves in the toughest EEs, but that's it. That DC mows through content up the very highest difficulty quest, and even there it is useful. Also, that 69-70 DC is still better than a 0 DC when you don't even have the ability.



The point on slayer arrows is fair. That is a definite loss.

With regards to losses compared to a pure QP monk, as I said previously, it loses approximately 2-3 DC. This is significant, under certain circumstances. But in the same way as I have to consider the losses compared to pure, you have to consider the benefits of manyshot and IPS compared to a pure monk. They are substantial, I assure you. Consider single target red-named DPS increase from a furyshot on top of multi-target IPS DPS when the situation is suitable for it.

Maybe in your previous monk experience you were a GMOF and that may explain some of the ignorance behind this post? or maybe just too much theory crafting and not enough practice? You can build an effective hybrid, but a monkcher with QP. ummm no.

I would love to see your build suggestion..

whomhead
01-19-2014, 10:03 AM
Maybe in your previous monk experience you were a GMOF and that may explain some of the ignorance behind this post? or maybe just too much theory crafting and not enough practice? You can build an effective hybrid, but a monkcher with QP. ummm no.

I would love to see your build suggestion..

Wow dude. Talk about ignorance. I find it absolutely hilarious when people call a post/poster ignorant, and then provide no actual information other than name calling. I'm trying to facilitate a discussion here. If you think I'm so ignorant, then please enlighten me. Until then, you can take your superior attitude and shove it.

LavidDynch
01-19-2014, 10:57 AM
Wow dude. Talk about ignorance. I find it absolutely hilarious when people call a post/poster ignorant, and then provide no actual information other than name calling. I'm trying to facilitate a discussion here. If you think I'm so ignorant, then please enlighten me. Until then, you can take your superior attitude and shove it.

I was being fully sincere... running a monk outside of GMOF and in earth stance will provide you with zero ki generation. On my monkcher i have the standard kit that provides with +1 ki generation, in hectic content such as FOT i find myself meditating. You will more than likely (since you haven't provided with an actual build; a few different feat layouts and ideas is not a build imo) have no ki generation except what you produce on hits/crits. Pushing in QP at 30ki/shadowfade15ki you will have problems with KI. so the scenario u ranted about when a monkcher comes to 3 mobs, sounds to me as just plain ignorance and lack of gameplay.

what do you think is more efficient?

a/ pin, and shoot em down. if you find a good angle a possible one shot.
b/ swap to wraps, stun (req DC check) / change to sun stance (pray that the other 2 mobs wont hit you) while you try to generate ki for 3 QP with a total of 18 second cool down (another DC check). and your being in the fray while doing it....

I dunno, you tell me?

Truth is that you will be AP starved, your defence will be weaker then a regular melee monk, and by miles any decent monkcher. I'd love to see the build thou.

whomhead
01-19-2014, 12:20 PM
I was being fully sincere... running a monk outside of GMOF and in earth stance will provide you with zero ki generation. On my monkcher i have the standard kit that provides with +1 ki generation, in hectic content such as FOT i find myself meditating. You will more than likely (since you haven't provided with an actual build; a few different feat layouts and ideas is not a build imo) have no ki generation except what you produce on hits/crits. Pushing in QP at 30ki/shadowfade15ki you will have problems with KI. so the scenario u ranted about when a monkcher comes to 3 mobs, sounds to me as just plain ignorance and lack of gameplay.

1) You are correct that ki management is important. You might note that I stated as much above. Typically I will switch to wraps and build up as much ki as I can on a few mobs. Depending on how much time I spend in ranged VS melee, that can be enough to get me through entire quests. If I need to meditate, I do so. 2) Im not sure why it matters, but I haven't played in GMoF in several lives. 3) I was not even remotely close to ranting in my post above. 4) Calling people ignorant makes you look condescending and full of yourself. People can disagree with you without immediately being idiots. Even if what you are stating is correct, you will be very unlikely to get a positive response.


what do you think is more efficient?

a/ pin, and shoot em down. if you find a good angle a possible one shot.
b/ swap to wraps, stun (req DC check) / change to sun stance (pray that the other 2 mobs wont hit you) while you try to generate ki for 3 QP with a total of 18 second cool down (another DC check). and your being in the fray while doing it....

I dunno, you tell me?

Truth is that you will be AP starved, your defence will be weaker then a regular melee monk, and by miles any decent monkcher. I'd love to see the build thou.

I would react depending on the specifics of the situation. If they can be lined up, I will line them up and keep shooting. If they can't be lined up, I will switch to wraps and either generate some ki by stunning and then punching them, or if I'm loaded up on ki I will take them out with a QP. The build is all about options. The right tool for the job, and all that.

I play mostly solo, so I don't concern myself overly much with the greatest efficiency at all times. When I have grouped up, I have led or nearly led kill counts, and felt quite comfortable that I was a contributing member of the group. I definitely have never had anyone complain.

With regards to defenses, I have to admit that I don't really see what you're getting at. I see very little that a pure monk gets defensively over this build - basically just the PRR and +1 con from GM earth stance, alongside a few extra AC from monk bonus and a few additional points of wisdom. I definitely don't see what puts "any decent monkcher miles ahead of this build defensively." Aside from running away from mobs while shooting, which this build can also do just fine. What am I missing there?

I have refrained from posting the build because I figured I would just get a bunch of people telling me what an idiot I am for playing such an inefficient and horrible character. Turns out I needn't have worried as I got exactly that even without posting the build. But since you asked so nicely, here you go.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 28 Lawful Neutral Human Male
(2 Fighter \ 16 Monk \ 2 Ranger \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 340
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 21
Reflex: 17
Will: 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28)
Strength 17 23
Dexterity 14 19
Constitution 12 15
Intelligence 8 11
Wisdom 17 30
Charisma 8 11

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 15
+4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 15
+4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 15
+5 Tome of Dexterity used at level 19

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 28)
Balance 2 14
Bluff -1 8
Concentration 1 13
Diplomacy -1 8
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -1 8
Heal 3 18
Hide 2 12
Intimidate -1 8
Jump 3 16
Listen 3 18
Move Silently 2 12
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 8
Search -1 8
Spellcraft -1 8
Spot 3 18
Swim 3 14
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Cleave
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist


Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead


Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot


Level 4 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Zen Archery


Level 5 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 7 (Monk)


Level 8 (Monk)


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Precise Shot


Level 10 (Monk)


Level 11 (Monk)


Level 12 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Monk)


Level 14 (Monk)


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Monk)


Level 17 (Monk)


Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Manyshot


Level 19 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Precise Shot


Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Precision


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons


Level 28 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Tactician
Enhancement: Human - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Human Adaptability: Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Focus: Archery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Shadow Veil (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Fists of Iron (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Bastion of Purity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Protection from Tainted Creatures (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Hand (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Argent Fist (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Skin (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Skin (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Skin (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Conditioning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Conditioning (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Conditioning (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Dismissing Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Instinctive Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Instinctive Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Instinctive Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Violence Begets Violence (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Meditation of War (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Empty Hand Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Arcane Archer (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Conjure Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Energy of the Wild (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Energy of the Wild (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Force Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Force Arrows (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Force Arrows (Rank 3)




The monk feat at 6 monk is for 10k stars, which the character planner doesn't recognize as fitting there. I put two level up bonuses in strength at 4 and 8 to meet the reqs for OC, and the other 5 in wisdom.

And now you can continue to tell me how little I know about the game, but with full and accurate access to the true extent of my ignorance.

LavidDynch
01-19-2014, 01:10 PM
1) You are correct that ki management is important. You might note that I stated as much above. Typically I will switch to wraps and build up as much ki as I can on a few mobs. Depending on how much time I spend in ranged VS melee, that can be enough to get me through entire quests. If I need to meditate, I do so. 2) Im not sure why it matters, but I haven't played in GMoF in several lives. 3) I was not even remotely close to ranting in my post above. 4) Calling people ignorant makes you look condescending and full of yourself. People can disagree with you without immediately being idiots. Even if what you are stating is correct, you will be very unlikely to get a positive response.



I would react depending on the specifics of the situation. If they can be lined up, I will line them up and keep shooting. If they can't be lined up, I will switch to wraps and either generate some ki by stunning and then punching them, or if I'm loaded up on ki I will take them out with a QP. The build is all about options. The right tool for the job, and all that.

I play mostly solo, so I don't concern myself overly much with the greatest efficiency at all times. When I have grouped up, I have led or nearly led kill counts, and felt quite comfortable that I was a contributing member of the group. I definitely have never had anyone complain.

With regards to defenses, I have to admit that I don't really see what you're getting at. I see very little that a pure monk gets defensively over this build - basically just the PRR and +1 con from GM earth stance, alongside a few extra AC from monk bonus and a few additional points of wisdom. I definitely don't see what puts "any decent monkcher miles ahead of this build defensively." Aside from running away from mobs while shooting, which this build can also do just fine. What am I missing there?

I have refrained from posting the build because I figured I would just get a bunch of people telling me what an idiot I am for playing such an inefficient and horrible character. Turns out I needn't have worried as I got exactly that even without posting the build. But since you asked so nicely, here you go.

And now you can continue to tell me how little I know about the game, but with full and accurate access to the true extent of my ignorance.

Listen dude, your the one coming to the forums and asking for advice and then pretends that it rains when we point out the big flaw of this concept. I have called no one an idiot, cause i have tried this exact same build... Gave it up at lvl26, just too much work for no real gain and constantly running into the KI wall bugged me about the initial idea in the first place -- infact, turning the very same build into a monkcher flavor build of the past 2 years has probably been the best thing i did for that toon.

But if you do decide that this is the thing for you, I would strongly recommend to twist enlightment and ditch dance of flowers.

whomhead
01-19-2014, 02:32 PM
Listen dude, your the one coming to the forums and asking for advice and then pretends that it rains when we point out the big flaw of this concept.

Indeed. I came asking for advice on switching one feat around, and got people offering their unsolicited opinions on the way I should play my character. If I was unsatisfied about that part of the build, I would have asked about that. Even if you can't help stop yourself from offering an opinion on something beyond the scope of the OP, then it is polite to do so in a way that doesn't deal with the experience level of the person playing the character.

LavidDynch
01-20-2014, 09:09 AM
Indeed. I came asking for advice on switching one feat around, and got people offering their unsolicited opinions on the way I should play my character. If I was unsatisfied about that part of the build, I would have asked about that. Even if you can't help stop yourself from offering an opinion on something beyond the scope of the OP, then it is polite to do so in a way that doesn't deal with the experience level of the person playing the character.

Unsolicited opinions relevant to the topic is what you get on forums -- if you are lucky.

korsat
01-21-2014, 03:40 PM
Interesting.

Actually my moncher, Zendark, is more melee oriented but still 12m/6r/2f. I find the melee part very strong after enhancement change and LD a better ED compared with fury.

So you basically renunce at 3 free ranger feats (precise shot, manyshot, itwf) for QP and anything else of relevant?

6 ranger also opens 100% offhand and morphic arrows (in LD bow crit 15-20).

If you renunce at QP, considering you can kill a stunned ee mob in 3-4 sec -maybe less- with 30% sense weakness+30% no mercy+50% LD, you can get all the feats you mentioned, IPS and also 10k stars.

Just some thought, what do you think worth more?