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View Full Version : Un-Nerf WooWoo (Life-Stealing) Weapons



Teh_Troll
01-03-2014, 02:51 PM
Dropping the "woo" from 100% on a crit to 33% (best guess) sucks.

The Nightmare Bastard sword went from being the best trash-killer in the game to a trash weapon no longer worthy of the inventory slots or the feat required to use it.

Heavy-blades as a TWFing Kensai went from viable option to a bad idea. Nightmare for Trash and Drow Khopesh for Red-names was a reasonable compromise. Now? It's Balizarde or Mornh . . . singl-head heavy-blades are dreck.

The Nightmare, and other weapons of it's type, were an equalizer for low-DPS toons (Bards, melee divines, paladins, etc . . .). Low-DPS toons could still contribute against trash making them able to better justify a party slot.

And best off . . . Nightmares would Hjeal Meh!


Seriously . . . revert this back to the pre U20 state. Compared to a lot of garbage in DDO that is considered acceptable I have to say in hindsight the Nightmares were not over-powered.

Make it so.

R1ncewind
01-03-2014, 03:40 PM
Dropping the "woo" from 100% on a crit to 33% (best guess) sucks.

The Nightmare Bastard sword went from being the best trash-killer in the game to a trash weapon no longer worthy of the inventory slots or the feat required to use it.

Heavy-blades as a TWFing Kensai went from viable option to a bad idea. Nightmare for Trash and Drow Khopesh for Red-names was a reasonable compromise. Now? It's Balizarde or Mornh . . . singl-head heavy-blades are dreck.

The Nightmare, and other weapons of it's type, were an equalizer for low-DPS toons (Bards, melee divines, paladins, etc . . .). Low-DPS toons could still contribute against trash making them able to better justify a party slot.

And best off . . . Nightmares would Hjeal Meh!


Seriously . . . revert this back to the pre U20 state. Compared to a lot of garbage in DDO that is considered acceptable I have to say in hindsight the Nightmares were not over-powered.

Make it so.
Now you say it? NOW after i used all my boxes???? nonononono let the nerf hammer fall on monks

Saekee
01-03-2014, 03:51 PM
/signed

Certon
01-03-2014, 04:31 PM
Dropping the "woo" from 100% on a crit to 33% (best guess) sucks.

The Nightmare Bastard sword went from being the best trash-killer in the game to a trash weapon no longer worthy of the inventory slots or the feat required to use it.

Heavy-blades as a TWFing Kensai went from viable option to a bad idea. Nightmare for Trash and Drow Khopesh for Red-names was a reasonable compromise. Now? It's Balizarde or Mornh . . . singl-head heavy-blades are dreck.

The Nightmare, and other weapons of it's type, were an equalizer for low-DPS toons (Bards, melee divines, paladins, etc . . .). Low-DPS toons could still contribute against trash making them able to better justify a party slot.

And best off . . . Nightmares would Hjeal Meh!


Seriously . . . revert this back to the pre U20 state. Compared to a lot of garbage in DDO that is considered acceptable I have to say in hindsight the Nightmares were not over-powered.

Make it so.

Grave Wrappings (which only drain on vorpal) were nerfed as well. That's a serious screwage.

Franke
01-04-2014, 03:51 AM
/Signed.

It's strange that an epic "end game" weapon got screwed so badly. As its power is aimed against trash, nerfing it makes no real sense. As you say, it did slightly level the playing field for lower dps toons too.

Teh_Troll
01-04-2014, 10:46 PM
Grave Wrappings (which only drain on vorpal) were nerfed as well. That's a serious screwage.

Wow . . . that does suck. I didn't notice.

Seriously Turbine, if you leave the junk in the game that does work this sure as heck wasn't OP.

Dandonk
01-05-2014, 02:23 AM
Yes.

This is Turbine's MO:

1) Create a useful and fun ability on a named item.
2) Oh, players like it? Put it on randgen/craftable items.
3) Oh, wait, the ability wasn't scaled for the crit ranges/whatever of items other than the named ones it originally appeared on? Oops, better nerf the ability into the ground.
4) The named item is now useless, you say? Well, who cares, named/raid items aren't supposed to be useful anyway.
5) ???
6) Profit?

Jasparion
01-05-2014, 03:22 AM
Yes.

This is Turbine's MO:

1) Create a useful and fun ability on a named item.
2) Oh, players like it? Put it on randgen/craftable items.
3) Oh, wait, the ability wasn't scaled for the crit ranges/whatever of items other than the named ones it originally appeared on? Oops, better nerf the ability into the ground.
4) The named item is now useless, you say? Well, who cares, named/raid items aren't supposed to be useful anyway.
5) ???
6) Profit?

Deadly will be nerfed next?

Or Seeker?

Dandonk
01-05-2014, 06:22 AM
Deadly will be nerfed next?

Or Seeker?

My guess is featherfall or underwater action. They're totally OP, such lowlevel enchantments should not invalidate entire systems.*


* There are no bonus points for recognizing what I'm referring to here.

Arianka
01-05-2014, 12:53 PM
i'd be happy if thyey at least uppd the chance to 50%.

Teh_Troll
01-07-2014, 09:04 AM
Deadly will be nerfed next?

Or Seeker?

Deadly never should have been added to the game.

Teh_Troll
01-07-2014, 09:08 AM
i'd be happy if thyey at least uppd the chance to 50%.

it need to be back the way it was . . . the Nightmare is a trash weapon, it's not a good DPS weapon and it's meh on red-names. In order for it to excel as trash weapon it needs to be back the way it was.

It order to be worth it, the Nightmare needs to kill trash faster than a Balizarde or Mornh.

Fedora1
01-07-2014, 09:11 AM
Just to be sure I understand - this weapon used to automatically drain levels on a crit, but now only does so aprox 30% of the time on crits? Is the vamprism the same or also nerfed?

Teh_Troll
01-07-2014, 09:16 AM
Just to be sure I understand - this weapon used to automatically drain levels on a crit, but now only does so aprox 30% of the time on crits?

Correct.



Is the vamprism the same or also nerfed?

The Vamprism remains the same.

Fedora1
01-07-2014, 09:22 AM
Correct.

Well that's dumb. What other weapon in the game only procs on some crits?

So essentially they've nerfed it back similar to those that have that occasionally comes to the surface effect such as trap the soul or incineration. However most of those have a better effect than 1-3 level drains.

Teh_Troll
01-07-2014, 09:29 AM
Well that's dumb. What other weapon in the game only procs on some crits?

Don't get be started on the 90% stat-damage immunity of Epic Ward. That should have gone as soon as Deathblock was removed.



So essentially they've nerfed it back similar to those that have that occasionally comes to the surface effect such as trap the soul or incineration. However most of those have a better effect than 1-3 level drains.

It's been nerfed to the point where it is no longer a better trash-killer than the other one-handed options. Since it's not a great DPS weapon it needs to be the best trash killer to be worth taking the feat and the inventory spaces. Since it no longer is the best trash-killer . . . it is trash.

redspecter23
01-07-2014, 09:39 AM
I think the best thing to do would be to unnerf the effect. I would settle for any of the following instead of or in addition to this reversion

1. Remove the ultrafast neg level regeneration on EE mobs so that they don't heal back faster than we can drain with the nerfed weapons. Just like near immunity to ability score damage, this is an ability that isn't really needed, especially if the woo woo nerf is to remain in effect.

2. Instead of a chance on crit which is clunky, just make it Xd3 neg levels on 19-20 or on vorpal hits. You "nerf" the high crit range weapons while Nightmare can remain effectively the same as it's former self, depending on what you set "X" at.

unbongwah
01-07-2014, 02:28 PM
This is rather like all the nerfs to CON dmg which eventually rendered WoP weapons moot. "Zero CON = instadeath! No, wait, too powerful: zero CON = helplessness! No, wait, helplessness is OP, we'll nerf that from 'free auto-crits' to '+50% dmg.' Hmmm, too many rednames can be dropped to zero CON - let's add stat immunities!"

Why even bother with the pretense than anything other than raw DPS (and the occasional CC effect) matters anymore?

Teh_Troll
01-07-2014, 02:34 PM
Why even bother with the pretense than anything other than raw DPS (and the occasional CC effect) matters anymore?

Raw DPS is boring, I like seeing lighning strikes and woowoos and fun stuff like that. it's more fun that the big numbers you get off the Balizardes.

harry-pancreas
01-07-2014, 02:42 PM
they should leave named woo-woo weapons as they were, and keep the random enchantment with the 33% chance IMHO.

I know, i know, more coding, won't happen...one can dream i guess

zwiebelring
01-07-2014, 03:05 PM
They considered Terror as being OP and nerfed it with the comment: *...can be hurtful if on the receiving end....* after they were so stupid and made the unique terror effect available for high threat range weapons. The woowoo won't get back. They are stubborn on this regard.

Teh_Troll
01-07-2014, 03:10 PM
They considered Terror as eing OP and nerfed it with the comment: '...can be hurtful if on the receiving end....* after they were so stupid and made the unique terror effect available for high threat range weapons. The woowoo won't get back. They are stubborn on this regard.

That's insanely stupid also . . . with the saves mobs have now the I forgot the Nightmare had the "terror" effect.

The insane mob-saves also made earth-grab weapons worthless. I loved the triple-earth alchemicals . . . not they are ****.

voodoogroves
01-07-2014, 03:29 PM
That's insanely stupid also . . . with the saves mobs have now the I forgot the Nightmare had the "terror" effect.

The insane mob-saves also made earth-grab weapons worthless. I loved the triple-earth alchemicals . . . not they are ****.

Would love to see some scaling based on item ML (with slots being able to alter the ML)

HungarianRhapsody
01-07-2014, 03:33 PM
/signed. My Monk needs more combat options and Quarterstaff is a centered weapon.

zwiebelring
01-07-2014, 03:44 PM
That's insanely stupid also . . . with the saves mobs have now the I forgot the Nightmare had the "terror" effect.

The insane mob-saves also made earth-grab weapons worthless. I loved the triple-earth alchemicals . . . not they are ****.

Absolutely agree. They want us to charge and get a mouthful, burst healin divines chucking pots like crazy and call that challenge. So the players fight back with the last legal trump they have: slpash builds with Monks.

Seikojin
01-07-2014, 04:34 PM
Back when cannith was being tested on Lam, they had woo woo on a shard. made some whatever of woo woo scimis. lvl drain on crit was very, very often.

It is all about frequency. If your most powerful effect is on crit, you will see it soo often it becomes less useful or OP. If it is on vorpal, it seems right, however, when you attack 20+ times a second, you will see it fairly frequently. Especially compared to the initial vorpal rate which would have been based on 10+ hits per second.

Then you add doublestrike...

So it just is another rebalance to make woo woo less OP than it is; to fit with what it was when they released as a vorpal.

I guess you could say adjusting for inflation. :)

I would love it personally if it was back to the crit days. trash is trash. They die super fast no matter what. Have casters throw deathward on them :)

Teh_Troll
02-26-2014, 02:56 PM
Everything said in the OP remains true. Now that we have a new producer I hope she will bring the woowoo back to DDO.

Un-nerf nightmares.

whereispowderedsilve
02-26-2014, 03:28 PM
/Signed!

Desonde
02-26-2014, 04:42 PM
Agreed!

Both Life Stealing and Nightmares on the named items need to be reverted to a useful version, especially when a party of two players and two npcs grants the monsters a 70% hp and damage boost to a single player and npc.

Nightmare, the Fallen Moon has both of these effects as it's selling features, the latter is even what it's named after, it's fitting that the DC of 36 on Nightmares isn't listed since monsters with a CR28 will save half the time vs DC 50, and since mobs in a level 23 dungeon are CR 26-32, people who know the numbers will know it's a joke.

The mistake was adding these affects to loot gen, and since that can't be changed to the existing items, the named items need to gain upgraded versions to remain competitive [You've reintroduced the numeral system, make it Life Stealing II on crit. and Nightmare II 5-40 no save Vorpal DC 56 Phantasmal Killer].

Noctus
02-27-2014, 11:03 AM
This is rather like all the nerfs to CON dmg which eventually rendered WoP weapons moot. "Zero CON = instadeath! No, wait, too powerful: zero CON = helplessness! No, wait, helplessness is OP, we'll nerf that from 'free auto-crits' to '+50% dmg.' Hmmm, too many rednames can be dropped to zero CON - let's add stat immunities!"

Why even bother with the pretense than anything other than raw DPS (and the occasional CC effect) matters anymore?


Exactly.

Turbine has a long history of killing every non-DPS-weapon way of dealing with trashmobs.

Vorpal?
Paralysing?
Stat-damage?
Nightmare?
Level-drain?

All useless. Straight boring DPS always ends up being the best, after short-term "oversights" will be quickly "corrected". God beware if you switch weapons according to mobtype!

Dandonk
02-27-2014, 11:23 AM
Exactly.

Turbine has a long history of killing every non-DPS-weapon way of dealing with trashmobs.

Vorpal?
Paralysing?
Stat-damage?
Nightmare?
Level-drain?

All useless. Straight boring DPS always ends up being the best, after short-term "oversights" will be quickly "corrected". God beware if you switch weapons according to mobtype!

Agreed. It's a constant move towards straight DPS being the only thing that matters. It makes for a boring game when all interesting effects are nerfed into the ground.

Teh_Troll
02-27-2014, 11:37 AM
Agreed. It's a constant move towards straight DPS being the only thing that matters. It makes for a boring game when all interesting effects are nerfed into the ground.

That it really, straight DPS is boring.

Lightning strikes are cool.

Vorpals were cool, I LOVED pre-U5 using Vorpal kamas on a tempest splash in Wind-stance.

And WooWoos were friggin cool! Sure, it might have gotten a little ridiculous when 5 guys in a group had dual Nightmares but after hundreds of hours in EE content I cannot say they were over the top compared to a lot of the other junk in this game.

Cardtrick
02-27-2014, 12:22 PM
And WooWoos were friggin cool! Sure, it might have gotten a little ridiculous when 5 guys in a group had dual Nightmares but after hundreds of hours in EE content I cannot say they were over the top compared to a lot of the other junk in this game.

I miss the old days of epics, before difficulty settings and the nerfs to level draining and helplessness/autocrits, when my acrobat/kensai with stunning blow and a Dreamspitter used to be able to solo epics almost as fast as a caster.

It was fun. Haste Pot, Stun, Switch to Dreamspitter, Woo, Woo, WooWooWooWooWooWoo, DEAD!

Now the sorcerers are just as fast and fun as they always were, if not more so, but the melees have to rely on the much less interesting slow DPS beatdown "tactic."

Oh well, staffs are still cool.

bsquishwizzy
02-27-2014, 12:36 PM
Exactly.

Turbine has a long history of killing every non-DPS-weapon way of dealing with trashmobs.

Vorpal?
Paralysing?
Stat-damage?
Nightmare?
Level-drain?

All useless. Straight boring DPS always ends up being the best, after short-term "oversights" will be quickly "corrected". God beware if you switch weapons according to mobtype!

yeah...but...you've got IMPROVED Vorpal and IMPROVED Paralyzing that drops on...uh...it drops quite often in...ummm...er...




...nevermind...

Dandonk
02-27-2014, 12:37 PM
yeah...but...you've got IMPROVED Vorpal and IMPROVED Paralyzing that drops on...uh...it drops quite often in...ummm...er...




...nevermind...

You forgot Ghostbane :p

bsquishwizzy
02-27-2014, 12:50 PM
Yeah, melee has issues.

I remember when I made my boss-beaters. Looked all over for silver, cold iron, and adamantine weapon types to get through DR. Now? I mean, does that even make a difference anymore?

With my fighter right now, I’m switching to my greensteel MIN weapon and/or my Vorpal Lacerating weapon. I did run a couple of wilderness areas with Terror, and that was kinda fun (someone explain to me how wolves get Deathblock, OK?) but really it has no use outside of that. Even with Vorpals, mob HP is so high on elite that is it basically useless until you pound them down below 1K, and with that the proc rate is really rather low.

At lower levels with so-so weapons (and I’ll go on board with the woo-woo weapons being mighty cool), I was dropping stuff left-and-right. At upper levels with BETTER WEAPONS I’m struggling. Mainly because the proc rates and the effects are essentially useless. It becomes a straight-ahead slugfest.

A wizzy’s effectiveness with combat effects is tied to their build. If I want to dance everything, it is tied to my stats, buffs, and the gear that I am using. However, if I have a weapon like Envenomed Blades, my effectiveness with paralyzing is tied directly to the weapon – it is static. There is next to nothing I can do to improve it. I think that’s half of the problem.

Roziel_Longblade
05-14-2014, 08:36 PM
A wizzy’s effectiveness with combat effects is tied to their build. If I want to dance everything, it is tied to my stats, buffs, and the gear that I am using. However, if I have a weapon like Envenomed Blades, my effectiveness with paralyzing is tied directly to the weapon – it is static. There is next to nothing I can do to improve it. I think that’s half of the problem. Do you think wizzy past life should affect weapon dc's in addition to wands?

bsquishwizzy
05-19-2014, 04:26 PM
Do you think wizzy past life should affect weapon dc's in addition to wands?

Try "effectiveness of melee weapons are tied to the level of the melee toon."

It's a suggestion. Something to think about.

For example, a paralyzing weapon has a DC17 save. A paralyzing weapon at lvl 20 has near ZERO effectiveness because of mob saves. So, making paralyzing tied somehow to the level of the melee toon scales the DC.

Relem
05-19-2014, 05:03 PM
Don't get be started on the 90% stat-damage immunity of Epic Ward. That should have gone as soon as Deathblock was removed.


Oh please do. I dropped the EE version of the Trapsmith's Crossbow, a great ml 27 weapon to use in heroic levels.