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View Full Version : building a Fvs thats not a shiradi/melee/aa/etc. 18/1/1



Snapdragoon
01-03-2014, 01:06 AM
human 18 FvS / 1 monk / 1 wizard

plan on maxing wisdom, secondary stats are con and cha, use a staff.

18 FvS is final level spells (implosion)
1 monk for stances, feat, wisdom to ac (HA like it matters) spellpower from enhancements and dodge.
1 wiz for another meta feat, bonus hp and spell crit from enhancements among a few other little luxuries.

going for a evo/necro/healer build, versatile caster. main destiny is AoV with DC twists from magister (necro) and draconic (evo) third twist is optional but I chose cocoon for more cheap healing. (draconic burst is not recommended, BB and implosion should cover its loss, and we are not really pumping cha so its DC will be low.)

*Disclaimer* this build will be slight trouble in EE, DC casting is just too hard, and other casters (shiradi) can do it MUCH better. however, in most content you will be a more effective traditional caster. instantly killing lone trash, BB a mob when the group does not mind the kiting, implosion when they do, healing them when able, and rezing if you were not (:D)

feats (in no order)
human - toughness
monk - dodge (requires a 13 dex)
wizard - mental toughness
1 - improved mental toughness
3 - maximize
6 - empower heal
9 - quicken
12 - heighten
15 - spell focus evo
18 - spell focus necro
21 - epic mental toughness
24 - epic toughness
26 - ( up to you, spellpower of choice, force, fire, or positive. hellball will be less usefull as its cha and int, neither maxed here no version for wis because no casters use that right? toughness, hp is always nice)
27 - ruin or epic damage reduction based on your preference
28 - same deal as 26

skill points - heal, spellcraft, umd (try for half a point in tumble to make it active, anything extra is up to you)

take levels and feats as you see fit. gear is fairly simple for a caster. max your casting stat and con, and grab a casting staff that compliments your goal, its not too hard.

survivability should be pretty good for the content its intended for, 25% dodge is easy in this build, 10% incorp, 20% blurry from items or scrolls, 50% displace is better. high hp, good saves, fantastic self heals (renewal and cocoon are cheap and work at the same time) good mob clear, okay boss dps (ruin and DP both have no save)
the point is its a very flexible caster, you should always be able to help in at least one fashion or another :) wing zerg implosion, or nanybot, choices to make eh :)

best of luck and have fun, if anyone finds any problems point them out please :)

Matuse
01-03-2014, 06:52 AM
25% dodge is easy in this build

How do you figure that? You get 3% from the Dodge feat, 2% for being a Monk, 1% from Ocean stance, 10% from an item, 1% if you are permanently hasted. Where are the other 8 points coming from?

unbongwah
01-03-2014, 11:18 AM
How do you figure that? You get 3% from the Dodge feat, 2% for being a Monk, 1% from Ocean stance, 10% from an item, 1% if you are permanently hasted. Where are the other 8 points coming from?
Well, he can pick up 3% from Ninja Acrobatic, 2% from Mobility item, and 3% if he Twists in Perfect Balance instead of Cocoon.

I'd rather do monk 2 than monk 1 / wiz 1, if his Reflex saves are actually good enough. He can take Toughness & Dodge as his monk bonus feats.

Violith
01-03-2014, 11:45 AM
Hmm, think your forgetting something, you said 'not really pumping cha so its DC will be low', but FVS get their DC by wisdom, not charisma. also, as an 18fvs, you should get 180% extra SP from SP items, so Epic mental toughness seems like a wasted feat, its only 200sp and 1%crit, with AOV most fvs have ~4k sp anyway. Also as a caster 50hp is nice but not really needed. and necro DC wouldnt get high enough for the +1 from spell focus necro to really matter, so instead of those 3 feats you should take the monk stances, up to grandmaster.

Grandmaster of Rain: Ocean Stance now grants +4 Wisdom, a +4% dodge bonus to Armor Class, +5 to all Saving Throws, and your passive ki generation when centered is increased by 1, at a cost of -2 Strength.
(~the extra +2wis over the base stance will cover the +1DC loss from the missing necro focus, and also give all your other DCs a +1, and you'll get an extra +3% dodge, and +3 to saves over the base stance)

Grandmaster of Rock: Mountain Stance now grants +4 Constitution, a 20% boost to AC, 15 physical resistance, a +70% Insight bonus to melee threat generation, and the critical multiplier of all weapons you use is increased by 1 on rolls of a natural 19 or 20, at the cost of -2 Dexterity and -10% movement speed. While in Mountain Stance, you gain 'Get Hit Effect: Gain 1 ki.'
(~if you really need the HP rather then DC, probably more useful in boss fights when you dont need the DC, +4 con would give a +2hp/lvl (lvl28=56hp), plus will have more ppr and AC (which with wisdom to AC and armored robes you'll probably be able to high a decent number for EH atleast)

unbongwah
01-03-2014, 12:27 PM
Hmm, think your forgetting something, you said 'not really pumping cha so its DC will be low', but FVS get their DC by wisdom, not charisma.
OP's referring to the DC on Draconic Energy Burst, which is based on INT or CHA; so he's recommending not Twisting it because of low-ish CHA on this build.

and necro DC wouldnt get high enough for the +1 from spell focus necro to really matter
SF:Necro is to open up Necro Specialist twist from Magister for another +3 DCs. I presume it's for Destruction, since Energy Drain and Symbol of Death have no saves.

I agree the Mental Toughness feats are overkill; I would recommend investing in Spell Pen feats instead, esp. for a build which relies on instakills.

Violith
01-03-2014, 01:59 PM
OP's referring to the DC on Draconic Energy Burst, which is based on INT or CHA; so he's recommending not Twisting it because of low-ish CHA on this build.

SF:Necro is to open up Necro Specialist twist from Magister for another +3 DCs. I presume it's for Destruction, since Energy Drain and Symbol of Death have no saves.

I agree the Mental Toughness feats are overkill; I would recommend investing in Spell Pen feats instead, esp. for a build which relies on instakills.

ah, never even bothered to look and see the draconic energy burst having a save. XD.

and not sure what his top DC is, but necromancy that deals with fort saves are a PITA to get decent DC's with in epics, my palemaster is just barely at the edge for some EH DC's, he can get most but there are a handful of mobs that still save more then 50% of the time. and has all the focus feats, enhancements, lich form +3 (+4intel +1necro dc), the magistar +3, +14intel items (+10 int, 3insight, +1except items,) and a +4necro item with a +2 necro augment, with max intel as an elf (18+full lvl ups).

he might have a similiar wisdom, but his DC's will be easily ~5-6 below mine since fvs dont get many enhancements/buffs to necro dc. so even with the magister twist it probably isnt going to be worth it, course. mine could just be undergeared but as far as DC's are concerned I dont see what else I could add except PL's (which only the wizard PL selectable feat would add to necro DC's, and you can only take that once)

Snapdragoon
01-03-2014, 03:48 PM
posts above already broke down what I meant about cha save on draconic and how to get more dodge, as well as the reason for spell focus feats.

2 monk is an obvious choice and there are lots of those, but you loose a meta feat and some sp and a few minor conveniences (hp and sp enhancements, spell crit and spell power, perma invis)

you can drop all the mental feats but I don't like drinking pots and the extra spell crit is just gravy. besides spell pen is only really needed in the drow content.

the point is that the build is not focused on only necro spells (slay living, destruction, implosion) so if you run content with inflated or high fort saves your not screwed. BB, firestorm, comet fall, divine punishment, ruin, divine wrath, etc. are all perfectly capable under this build, and some have no save. and if you find its just more effective to sit back and heal the group you are perfectly capable of doing that as well.

and nothing will beet a pure pm in necro :) I know I have one too XD

thanks for all the replies and I hope everything has been cleared up.

AtomicMew
01-03-2014, 04:22 PM
I wouldn't worry too much about spell penetration. You don't have to worry about drow content SR much, since it's no longer end-game.
I would also definitely choose shiradi as your destiny, so you can have some actual DPS and not be a one trick pony. Normal spells with no destiny backing are incredibly weak in high level EEs and much too ineffcient. No matter how high your DCs are, if you only have divine punishment for red name DPS, you're probably going to hate your build (at least I would).

For a build like this, I would choose 1 sorc over 1 wizard and drop empower heal (unneeded) or maybe mental toughness. 1 sorc + intense faith + 2 arcane augmentation will get you a mid level magic missile with shiradi, for some much, much needed single target DPS. If you can work in 3 piece abishai, you can max out magic missile and have pretty relevant DPS at arguably little opportunity cost. Your DCs will remain the same.

Sebastrd
01-03-2014, 04:43 PM
posts above already broke down what I meant about cha save on draconic and how to get more dodge, as well as the reason for spell focus feats.

2 monk is an obvious choice and there are lots of those, but you loose a meta feat and some sp and a few minor conveniences (hp and sp enhancements, spell crit and spell power, perma invis)

you can drop all the mental feats but I don't like drinking pots and the extra spell crit is just gravy. besides spell pen is only really needed in the drow content.

the point is that the build is not focused on only necro spells (slay living, destruction, implosion) so if you run content with inflated or high fort saves your not screwed. BB, firestorm, comet fall, divine punishment, ruin, divine wrath, etc. are all perfectly capable under this build, and some have no save. and if you find its just more effective to sit back and heal the group you are perfectly capable of doing that as well.

and nothing will beet a pure pm in necro :) I know I have one too XD

thanks for all the replies and I hope everything has been cleared up.

Have you played this build yet, or is it just theory-crafting? I ask because what you've got so far just doesn't jive with my experience.




Blade Barrier is no substitute for Energy Burst, and it's not even close. On top of that, you don't need a big investment in Charisma for Energy Burst DC. I've got minimal starting, +4 tome, +9 from items and it still clears rooms.
What are you casting that you need to drink pots without SP feats?
I rarely had room for Firestorm in my casting progression, and it wasn't very good in any case. I've long since dropped it and don't miss it.
Have you calculated exactly what necro DC you're able to hit? It's more viable in EE than the forums make it out to be, but you need a high 50s DC.

Snapdragoon
01-03-2014, 06:20 PM
I don't really want to rely on shiradi at all. there are better FvS shiradi builds that simply do it better, or just be a sorc and dip 2 FvS unless you really want the past life.

I use mainly just DP and divine wrath for bosses, ruin if im in a hurry (have the extra sp to use it)

no BB and the like are not great aoe replacements for draconic burst, but its a high twist in a build that already has a few. if you have the fate points by all means go for it. but BB kiting is no problem, add in the constant divine wraths every time in off cooldown thanks to the archon and you have a lot of aoe mob damage.

this is a build I run, if I do EE usually I just try and heal and divine wrath to help the group. I solo'd a VoD with it without any trouble (not hard these days) I don't really run out of sp but I try hard not too.

Braegan
01-03-2014, 08:06 PM
I have a similar concept I was working on basically the 1st School Feats to open up twists to achieve greater DCs. Although I was planning on pure 20 FvS, Implosion is great but Energy Drain is really nice (esp if going to invest in Necromancy for Slay Living and Destruction). Is the loss of two level 9 spells, 1 level 8 spell, 2 spell pen, worth the trade off? Especially since you are neither going Shiradi or capitalizing on purchaseable monk stance I question your build split.

I, personally, disagree with ignoring spell pen completely as some do. True it's not much of an issue in Storm Horns, but that's just current content, subject to change. And there are other mobs with modest SR that does need to be overcome that is an issue if completely ignored. Not to mention future updates may include the need for bypassing high SR again. Currently my plan, just like the DC schools was to take Spell Pen, which at the least allows me the ability to twist more if the situation deems so. I believe that feat is worth more than the Mana feats you have selected, my opinion.

Also, do you have PL Wiz available? That +1 to all DCs and very nice clicky again would be worth more then the mana feats.

If you could post stats, gear set-up and breakdown of your Evocation and Necromancy DCs it would be most helpful for comparision.

Snapdragoon
01-03-2014, 09:48 PM
as far as level 9 spells go everything can be found elsewhere except for implosion.
-mass heal: to slow and over heals, mass cures are better
-summon monster: never
-true rez: scrolls save sp
-energy drain: neg level scrolls save sp too as it has no dc
-implosion: cannot get it anyplace else

my base wis right now is just over 50 un buffed, and that was not a lot of effort as I wanted other things over 1 point of wisdom, I know it adds up but its a bell curve of gain vs loss.

I have an evo +5 item and a necro +4 item. im not on atm so I cannot throw up exact save numbers.

the problem I have with devoting a lot of effort into spell pen is that is very necro focused. I have a necro wiz and no matter how I gear my FvS it will never be as good as a wiz.

that's why I have so many decent things I can do in this build. insta kills are great fun but some things are going to be immune no matter how high my DC is. I wanted to create the best caster FvS taking in everything they can be good at instead of just focus on one thing. that meant droping the last 2 levels of FvS, as the capstone grants Cha not Wis (so I pick that up in monk along with a few other things) and the 1 wis is a personal choice for benefits I have listed above.

the point im trying to make is this is not a necro Fvs, its a Fvs that happens to be good at necro, slight difference. yes you can insta kill, and aoe kite, and raid heal, and single target dps, etc.

its a caster, cheers :)

AtomicMew
01-04-2014, 12:40 AM
I don't really want to rely on shiradi at all. there are better FvS shiradi builds that simply do it better, or just be a sorc and dip 2 FvS unless you really want the past life.

I use mainly just DP and divine wrath for bosses, ruin if im in a hurry (have the extra sp to use it)

no BB and the like are not great aoe replacements for draconic burst, but its a high twist in a build that already has a few. if you have the fate points by all means go for it. but BB kiting is no problem, add in the constant divine wraths every time in off cooldown thanks to the archon and you have a lot of aoe mob damage.

this is a build I run, if I do EE usually I just try and heal and divine wrath to help the group. I solo'd a VoD with it without any trouble (not hard these days) I don't really run out of sp but I try hard not too.

End game EE bosses have 250k+ HP. Let's say extremely generously that in your current layout you're doing 1K average damage every 50 SP. At that rate, you'd need 12,500 SP to take down a boss on EE. Basically with that in mind, you're reverting to a glorified healbot babysitter for your group. Or, you could make a small change at no cost to your DC casting ability to make your build relevant in all content. I don't understand why you're avoiding shiradi. Is it because FOTM-y for you?

Snapdragoon
01-04-2014, 02:14 AM
End game EE bosses have 250k+ HP. Let's say extremely generously that in your current layout you're doing 1K average damage every 50 SP. At that rate, you'd need 12,500 SP to take down a boss on EE. Basically with that in mind, you're reverting to a glorified healbot babysitter for your group. Or, you could make a small change at no cost to your DC casting ability to make your build relevant in all content. I don't understand why you're avoiding shiradi. Is it because FOTM-y for you?

maybe, I just already have a shiradi (18 Sorc 2 FvS) and I would always wonder why im playing a worse version of my other characters. if I have to heal a group during a boss fight I have no problem with that, that's one of the things im perfectly capable to do.

when I set out with this build in mind I purposefully tried to avoid a) things other classes can just do better, and b) shiradi, because right now every damn caster is a shiradi, even DC wizards mostly sit in shiradi. why? is it because its over powered? no. its a fault of the devs and mob design. its simply to hard to be a DC caster in EE, and normal evo casters like evoker souls and sorcs just don't have the endurance for it, and sp regen items like Conc-op and the torc are not an option with mobs hitting for over 100 a swing. players are like water, they flow through the path of least resistance. any first life can be a shiradi caster about as equally effective as the triple completionist.

that's why I avoided warpriest as well. I feel like it was the devs going "yeah we know casting sucks, here this sword does not cost sp go swing at it" that's also why shiradi will not be nerfed or touched, it would screw the last pure caster viability.

and in the end that's why I built a caster FvS that was neither a shiradi / melee / ranged and that could fill a lot of roles. because who knows what the devs will mess up next. -_-

TL;DR this build is what it is. it can be twisted to suit needs, but I feel anything its twisted into something else can do better. if you want to play a more traditional caster like from days gone by here you go. if you want a shiradi caster that can solo zerg through EE content this is not for you, but there are builds out there to suit your needs. :)

cheers ^_^

Sebastrd
01-04-2014, 09:11 AM
The problem is that by avoiding things other classes do better, you've avoided things even your own character can be doing better. Your clinging to the ideal resulted in a crappy caster FvS.

Snapdragoon
01-04-2014, 04:38 PM
The problem is that by avoiding things other classes do better, you've avoided things even your own character can be doing better. Your clinging to the ideal resulted in a crappy caster FvS.

well im sorry you feel that way, lucky your not being forced to play it then eh?

I have a lot of fun with it and it performs well in most content and groups I have taken it through. but as I stated if you want an EE solo Zerg toon requiring a long list of epic gear, past lives, and +5 tomes this is not for you. but there are builds like that out there, so no need to comment on mine :)

Sebastrd
01-04-2014, 09:36 PM
well im sorry you feel that way, lucky your not being forced to play it then eh?

I have a lot of fun with it and it performs well in most content and groups I have taken it through. but as I stated if you want an EE solo Zerg toon requiring a long list of epic gear, past lives, and +5 tomes this is not for you. but there are builds like that out there, so no need to comment on mine :)

You specifically said,
if anyone finds any problems point them out please :)I did, and I pointed them out. Improving your build does not make it an "EE solo zerg toon", nor would it require a long list of epic gear, past lives, and +5 tomes. It simply requires recognizing subpar choices and making some adjustments.

If you like your build the way it is, that's fine. But you ought to at least point out the inefficient choices you made due to personal preference and not get all snippy when someone points out the ones you didn't realize.

Snapdragoon
01-05-2014, 05:06 AM
true I did say that. however I also said in the title "Not a shiradi"

if by not being a blasted shiradi like every single other caster makes this a crappy build. then by that definition I agree, this is a crappy FvS build :)

if people want shiradi casters they need look no further then this section of forums ^_^

but im glad to submit a build that is different from from everything else posted, I wish others would try more different and interesting builds.

Sebastrd
01-05-2014, 08:42 AM
true I did say that. however I also said in the title "Not a shiradi"

None of my comments implied going Shiradi.