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Azurchaos
12-27-2013, 05:10 AM
Hi I have a few questions befor i can begin My WF Sorc TR.

So far i have done Paladin, Ranger, Barb, Arti. As all of them (apart from the Arti) have been melee based i think its time to brance out into the casters.
I have + 3 tome on all stats so far and have been collecting dif gear through my past lives for when i get to this point. My main questions are:

1. Starting Stats.

with 36 point build.

Str - 12 (Don't wanna get burdened or enfeble rayied)
Dex- 10
Con - 18 ( HP HP HP HP)
Int - 12 ( Gives me 12 skill points to start. +4 Concentration + 4 Spell +2 UMD)
Wis - 6
Cha - 16 (All lvl ups into here ofc)

Any coments about that would be very much appreciated as so far its manly been STR = Smash for myself.

2. Feats.

I normaly play Human and that extra feat is 90% of the time Toughness. So i know i only have 7 feats to play with. (depending how much i enjoy playing depends if i go into Epic content or not.)

I have done some research and have seen that things such as Empower/ Maximize are in there but i wouldnt wanna take them to start cause burning through the extra 15/25 sp at lvl 1 kinda pointless to me. Isn't it?

Have seen people talk about Mental Toughness but from what i have seem Sorc's get a hell load of SP anyway so is it needed?

Extra Meta Feats such as Quicken/Extend/Highten wondering about how much they reli help through the game. Although i have seen that quite a few people take Quicken with Reconstruct so im guessing as a WF that is handy.

Force of Personality would be good due to the maxing out Charisma however a Spell such as " Protection from Evil" does a lot towards what will saves would be for.... i Think.

Last thing is Spell Focus/Spell Pen as i have said i have been melee so this isnt something i have been focusing on if i had to pick i would guess at Spell Focus:Evocation.

3. Enhancements

I had planned to go Air Savant as main with Fire as Backup. Prob more fire to start with and ir as Back up in start levels but i know when it comes to The Vale fire would fail.

(last of All.) 4.

Spells.

I would have through that as sorcs only get so many spells and they cant switch out lick wiz that most of the buffs that i do could be replaced with scrolls. Is this a working method? Or do the buffs benefit from You actually casting them.

And there is my Questions ^^ any help would be very helpful.

Happy New Year to ALL!!!

thesnoman
12-28-2013, 06:38 AM
Hi I have a few questions before i can begin My WF Sorc TR.
<SNIP>


Before I attempt to answer your questions - Are you planning to take this toon to Level 20 and TR or all the way to Level 28?

Rawrargh
12-28-2013, 08:58 AM
I wouldn't go for force of personality, seeing as you're doing a WF sorc.

WF are immune to holds, protection from evil makes you immune to command and greater heroism makes you immune to fear. Those are the three main reasons why you would want will saves, and neither of them is gonna be any problem for you, so it's pretty much a wasted feat.

About the meta magics:

Empower and maximize: A must, they're gonna be set to always on for your sla's (as with every other metamagic you pick up).
Quicken: as you said is nice for reconstruct, I always picked it on my sorc lives. Ussually at around level 12, where damage starts to exceed your concentration. It really is annoying to fail a reconstruct at a critical point.
Heighten: Depends on what path you wanna take. On a fire savant, I probably wouldn't be too worried about it. Earth isn't a big deal either. Ice can work without, but air savant is really hurting without heighten. It's not a MUST HAVE, but it WILL help your damage output.
Extend: Meh is all I can say.

On the subject of spell penetration, I would advise against spell penetration. It's only an issue on certain mobs and even then, as a sorc you're ussually better off just blasting your way through as there's no spell penetration check on direct damage spells.

Spell focus however is something you should pick up, for an air/fire savant you're gonna want evocation.

So in conclusion, I'd say pick up
Maximize
Empower
Quicken
Heighten
Spell focus: evocation
Greater spell focus: Evocation
And since you don't have a wiz pastlife, just go with what you feel like. Mental toughness adds some SP and some spell crit, so there's that I guess.

Azurchaos
12-28-2013, 02:05 PM
Before I attempt to answer your questions - Are you planning to take this toon to Level 20 and TR or all the way to Level 28?

All kinda depends on how much i like playing the life. I tend to play till i start to think this is kinda boring now and then TR.

Thank You Rawrargh that has cleared up quite a few of the things on my check list.

thesnoman
12-28-2013, 04:26 PM
Hi I have a few questions befor i can begin My WF Sorc TR.
<SNIP>
My main questions are:

1. Starting Stats.

with 36 point build.

Str - 12 (Don't wanna get burdened or enfeble rayied)
Dex- 10
Con - 18 ( HP HP HP HP)
Int - 12 ( Gives me 12 skill points to start. +4 Concentration + 4 Spell +2 UMD)
Wis - 6
Cha - 16 (All lvl ups into here ofc)

Any coments about that would be very much appreciated as so far its manly been STR = Smash for myself.

I'd Go:
Str - 10
Dex- 10
Con - 18
Int - 14 (More skill points and Int modifier effects Spellcraft)
Wis - 6
Cha - 16 (All level ups into here)


2. Feats.

<SNIP>I know i only have 7 feats to play with. <SNIP>

1. Toughness
2. Mental Toughness
3. Maximize
4. Empower
5. Quicken
6. CHOOSE: Improved Mental Toughness or SF: Evocation or [Earth Savant only] SF: Conjuration
7. CHOOSE: one of the above or Extend or Improved SF: (the one you chose above)


3. Enhancements

I had planned to go Air Savant as main with Fire as Backup. Prob more fire to start with and ir as Back up in start levels but i know when it comes to The Vale fire would fail.

OK - So mainly you want to take all the Fire Stuff first - including SLAs - all the way to Fireball. - You can change them later - like at Level 16 when you start exploring the Vale.

Fireball will be your main spell for quite a while - that and firewall or acid rain. (Personally I like Fire Primary and Acid Second for Heroic leveling and then switch Acid to Air for Epic).


(last of All.) 4.

Spells.
<SNIP>
Happy New Year to ALL!!!

Ok - you can switch one spell every few days and then you can always get a blood of dragons to switch as many spells as you want for a few hours.

Important Spells (Fire/Air):

Level 1
Burning Hands (Swap out later when you have the SLA)
Jump
Protection from Evil
Nightshield or Shield

Level 2
Electric Loop
Scorching Ray
Invisibility
Knock

Level 3
***FIREBALL*** (You can't get the SLA until Level 8 - more likely not until Level 10)
Lightning Bolt
Displacement
CHOICE: Haste, Rage, or Chain Missiles

Level 4
DIMENSION DOOR
CHOICES (3): Wall of Fire, Acid Rain, Ice Storm, Solid Fog, Enervation, StoneSkin

Level 5
Eldars Electric Surge
Ball Lightning
Protection from Elements
Choice: Teleport, Cyclonic Blast, Niacs Biting Cold

Level 6
RECONSTRUCT
Chain Lightning
Choice: Disintegrate, Acid Fog, Greater Heroism

Level 7
DELAYED BLAST FIREBALL
Choice (2): Finger of Death, Mass Invisibility, Prismatic Spray, Otto's Sphere

Level 8
Greater Shout
Choice (2): Incendiary Cloud, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Power Word Stun, Summon Monster VIII

Level 9
Meteor Swarm
Energy Drain
Choice: Wail of the Banshee, Hold Monster(Mass), Power Word: Kill, Mordenkainen's Disjunction


Choices are based on play style - I would likely not choose the same as you.
SPELLS IN CAPS are must haves
Anything else can be swapped around based on play style.

Azurchaos
12-29-2013, 01:32 AM
Have decided to take to levels of paladin for the Char saves. However would it be worth getting evasion? or would they be wasted levels? was thinking monk for the extra feat.

Wizza
12-29-2013, 04:47 AM
Some bad advices above.

First of all:

Go fire primary. I go Air secondary because I play an Air savant at endgame so I'm kinda used to how Air works. When Vale hits you have 2 choices: 1) keep Fire/Air or 2) switch to Air/Fire. Now, 1) is really possible even thou everyone will tell you not but you have to have the gear (Lesser Maximize/Heighten clickies to spam Chain and Ball Lightning), knowledge of Vale quests. I know this is possible because I NEVER switch to Air savant when leveling. Also, vale is not so full of Fire immune mobs as they make you believe. Everything can be taken care of with 1 Chain+ball lightning combo. 2) is, of course, better and kinda easier (more Spellpower if you go Air primary) if you haven't the above things.

Empower and Maximize should be taken as the first two feats. Even if you won't use them at lv1 but from 2 on and just on SLAs.
Mental Toughness is a no-go for lvling.
Toughness might be taken if you really want to but later on. Get first the necessary stuff: Empower, Maximize, Heighten, Spell Focus, Greater spell focus, Quicken (if you go WF or if you go human and decide to cap him to 28 and play epics).

While lvling I'd also take Extend for Displacement and Hage.

Spells to take as soon as you reach the level:

Fireball, Wall of Fire, Delayed Fireball.

Greater shout is also alwesome CC and does not require a SR check.
Dimension Door is good to speed things up.
Fire shield is awesome damage mitigation for all those quests with Fire/Cold damage.
Disintegrate is a must have for mobs with Fire/Air immunity (Von6 pillars).


As far as your initial stats, I'd go with your suggested ones:

12 STR
10
18
12
6
16

You will have enough points to Max UMD and Spellcraft.


Have decided to take to levels of paladin for the Char saves. However would it be worth getting evasion? or would they be wasted levels? was thinking monk for the extra feat.

Depends if you want to just level or stay at cap. In both cases, my personal preference is pure.


Choices are based on play style - I would likely not choose the same as you.

What a stupid statement. You have no idea of his playstyle, just his favorite (?) savant. You are just suggesting him a suboptimal build with subpar feats.

thesnoman
12-29-2013, 07:40 AM
Some bad advices above.

<SNIP>

What a stupid statement. You have no idea of his playstyle, just his favorite (?) savant. You are just suggesting him a suboptimal build with subpar feats.

Wizza cannot post without trying to insult people that give advice he does not agree with. He lurks and trolls and then posts most of the same information that he initially says is bad advice.

As for play style - he's right I don't know the OP's play style, but I know my own. I have not played a pure sorc for quite a while and I prefer Earth Savant with Fire secondary for leveling - quite different from most people out there who play Fire/Air.

For Wizza's Advice - I will disagree.

I'm on my 5th arcane life - I take the Stats I gave above and solo/Elite-Streak 99% of the content.
12 Str is not necessary on a Sorc. You can carry Lesser Restore Pots for the occasional Ray of Enfeeblement spell that hits you. The additional points in Intelligence will be noticed in Epic Content.

You do not need Max/Emp on your SLAs immediately. While they do help a bit, most of the time it's overkill. I stick by the order I gave, but if you want the Order I personally take it goes like this:

Toughness
Mental Toughness
Maximize
Improved Mental Toughness
Empower
Quicken
Extend

Wizza will, of course, disagree, but that's because we have totally different play styles.

Mental Toughness/Imp. Mental Toughness are not for the extra Spell Points, (but they do help in the Vale where Shrines are few and Far Between), but for the Spell Crit Chance.

Spells - Wizza gives very similar advice. I disagree with the following:

Fire Shield - it can be scrolled and is not important enough to waste on a spell slot.

Disintegrate is not necessary - VoN6 Pillars can be taken out by the melees, esp since there is timing involved. (Wizza: "Oops...crit Disintegrate - Pillar is down!" Rest of the Group: "****** - We said PREP the Pillars! Everyone hold up until Wizza's Genie re-spawns")


Have decided to take to levels of paladin for the Char saves. However would it be worth getting evasion? or would they be wasted levels? was thinking monk for the extra feat.

If you are planning on staying in Epic Content, 2 Pally levels will help your survivability. The Saves greatly outweigh the benefits of two additional Sorc Levels.

If you planned on staying Air/Fire Savant, I'd also recommend looking into 2 FvS levels and grabbing some enhancements out of the Angel of Vengeance tree. It synergizes very well with Sorc/Fire.

Wizza
12-29-2013, 08:29 AM
Wizza cannot post without trying to insult people that give advice he does not agree with. He lurks and trolls and then posts most of the same information that he initially says is bad advice.

Because posting a suggestion and then adding to the end "this is not what I would do" makes NO SENSE at all. "Hey go WF Rogue! But it sucks so I won't do it"



I'm on my 5th arcane life - I take the Stats I gave above and solo/Elite-Streak 99% of the content.
12 Str is not necessary on a Sorc. You can carry Lesser Restore Pots for the occasional Ray of Enfeeblement spell that hits you. The additional points in Intelligence will be noticed in Epic Content.

We are talking about 1 Spellcraft or 1 skill point vs 1 points of damage and RoE. While leveling, I prefer the point of damage.



You do not need Max/Emp on your SLAs immediately. While they do help a bit, most of the time it's overkill. I stick by the order I gave, but if you want the Order I personally take it goes like this:

Toughness
Mental Toughness
Maximize
Improved Mental Toughness
Empower
Quicken
Extend

Wizza will, of course, disagree, but that's because we have totally different play styles.

Mental Toughness/Imp. Mental Toughness are not for the extra Spell Points, (but they do help in the Vale where Shrines are few and Far Between), but for the Spell Crit Chance.

Again, it is NOT matter of play styles on this feat list. You are just giving bad advices..

Improved Mental Toughness for 2% crit chance while leveling? lol. Toughness at lv1 gives, what, 4 HP? While Empower + Maximize will let you one shot most mobs on Elite, even with Burning Hands (because no, you won't 1-shot them without Max and Emp unless you play easier difficulties).

No Heighten even? Good luck landing that Lightning Bolt or Chain Lightning spells that you suggested him to pick up or even the basic Fireball on Elite ;)




Spells - Wizza gives very similar advice. I disagree with the following:

Fire Shield - it can be scrolled and is not important enough to waste on a spell slot.

Disintegrate is not necessary - VoN6 Pillars can be taken out by the melees, esp since there is timing involved. (Wizza: "Oops...crit Disintegrate - Pillar is down!" Rest of the Group: "****** - We said PREP the Pillars! Everyone hold up until Wizza's Genie re-spawns")

Fire shield: matter of playstyles. I prefer to have it extended in quests like Steal of Souls, Prey on Hunter, Enter the Kobold.

Disintegrate: lol. Yup, keep assuming I'm a bad player to make the argument go in your favor. Meanwhile, I'll solo base 1/2/3 while you wait at the base for others to do what you can't do.

thesnoman
12-29-2013, 12:19 PM
@Wizza -

I get it - you and I have very different play styles.

I do not play Air Savant while leveling, EVER. The OP wanted Suggestions and I gave them.

The Way I play:
~ I Solo 98% while leveling, pugging ir guild grouping for quests that require multiple people.
~ I Rarely Max/Emp and Only for Levels 1-8 Do I use SLAs
~ I NEVER POT! - Seriously - Never - Not even Soloing EE Content. Having to pot = FAIL


I've played the way you seem to suggest. I've watched others play the way you suggest. If the OP is running in groups all the time, it's great. For soloing it stinks unless you plan on spending all your plat and RL money on Pots.

As for thinking you'r not a good player, not the case - and soloing EE VON6 Islands is not a problem for me (I don't carry Disintegrate because it isn't needed) What it is is that you think people must conform to your play style and builds or they are wrong. I've had this discussion with you and AtomicMew before. Neither of us is right, neither of us is giving bad advice, we just don't agree on the advice each other gives.
Open your mind - try it other ways - I've tried your way and I don't care for it. If you've tried it my way and you don't like it, so be it. Neither of us is wrong - we're just different.

I agree to disagree with you. how about it?

Wizza
12-29-2013, 12:34 PM
I've played the way you seem to suggest. I've watched others play the way you suggest. If the OP is running in groups all the time, it's great. For soloing it stinks unless you plan on spending all your plat and RL money on Pots.

You keep assuming that I'm a bad player who chugs pots while leveling. Hint: I'm not.

Also, where are these pots ideas coming from? Never mentioned them, never used them. Empower and Maximize at early levels are only used on SLAs, which do not cost extra sp. And you will use Max/Emp at later levels, just like me. So getting them early -> more benefits!



As for thinking you'r not a good player, not the case - and soloing EE VON6 Islands is not a problem for me (I don't carry Disintegrate because it isn't needed) What it is is that you think people must conform to your play style and builds or they are wrong. I've had this discussion with you and AtomicMew before. Neither of us is right, neither of us is giving bad advice, we just don't agree on the advice each other gives.
Open your mind - try it other ways - I've tried your way and I don't care for it. If you've tried it my way and you don't like it, so be it. Neither of us is wrong - we're just different.

I agree to disagree with you. how about it?

EE Von6? We are talking about leveling at the moment. The OP is not even sure if he wants to stay at cap. You are going all over the place.

I'd like to repeat that it's not matter of playstyles suggesting a player to get IMPROVED Mental Toughness for a mere 2% crit chance while leveling but you would ignore it again for the third time so I won't. Or suggesting to get Toughness at lv1 that gives you EXACTLY FOUR HP. These are the bad advices.

We are indeed different: I'm trying to give him some good suggestions while you don't.

thesnoman
12-29-2013, 12:45 PM
@ Wizza

Take it whatever way you want. I'll likely never even see you in game as we play on different servers. I don't know or care how you play, but I see what you post and everything points to either a Group-heavy play style or a pot-chugger.

You may not be, but you'll never be able to prove it to me.

BTW - Who plays VoN 5/6 while leveling? I occasionally see people do it and have to ask why.

The XP/Min is not great
The Favor is not needed
It's not that much fun when non-epic pugging
And, (at least on Thelanis), it takes forever to fill.

Personally, I'd rather be getting XP than waiting for a group to fill.

As for me, I'm done arguing with you. I've agreed to disagree and you have not, just like others cannot seem to do.

Remember this - you are not always right. There are better ways to do things, and you will never find them because you are stuck in your own little box, incapable of change unless it is forced upon you.

Icywave
12-30-2013, 12:22 AM
Hi I have a few questions befor i can begin My WF Sorc TR.

1. Starting Stats.

with 36 point build.

Str - 12 (Don't wanna get burdened or enfeble rayied)
Dex- 10
Con - 18 ( HP HP HP HP)
Int - 12 ( Gives me 12 skill points to start. +4 Concentration + 4 Spell +2 UMD)
Wis - 6
Cha - 16 (All lvl ups into here ofc)

Any coments about that would be very much appreciated as so far its manly been STR = Smash for myself.



I personally go STR 8, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16.

I guess you could switch to INT 10 rather than WIS 10. Actually, I'll even do that myself next Reincarnation.

Don't worry about your STR, you have a +3 Tome, and you can get some STR gear in there easily. As to CON 18 HP HP HP HP ... You can Reconstruct yourself.... and you can take 40 HP from WF Tree... so no panic :)

I also take 2 PAL Levels along the way for Saves.




2. Feats.

I normaly play Human and that extra feat is 90% of the time Toughness. So i know i only have 7 feats to play with. (depending how much i enjoy playing depends if i go into Epic content or not.)

I have done some research and have seen that things such as Empower/ Maximize are in there but i wouldnt wanna take them to start cause burning through the extra 15/25 sp at lvl 1 kinda pointless to me. Isn't it?

Have seen people talk about Mental Toughness but from what i have seem Sorc's get a hell load of SP anyway so is it needed?

Extra Meta Feats such as Quicken/Extend/Highten wondering about how much they reli help through the game. Although i have seen that quite a few people take Quicken with Reconstruct so im guessing as a WF that is handy.

Force of Personality would be good due to the maxing out Charisma however a Spell such as " Protection from Evil" does a lot towards what will saves would be for.... i Think.

Last thing is Spell Focus/Spell Pen as i have said i have been melee so this isnt something i have been focusing on if i had to pick i would guess at Spell Focus:Evocation.


I'd recommend you take 2 Pally Levels and drop Force of Personality. You'll have amazing Saves already.

As to " a hell load of SP ", Depends if you plan to play only in Heroic Elites/Epic Normal, or move it up a notch to EH/EE.

I would highly recommend the Mental Toughness/Imp Mtl Toughness, etc... as well as Spell Focus: Evoc ( at least once ).

Maximize is vital to boost up your SLAs.

Quicken for Reconstruct. This is what " guarantees " your survival and allows you to ignore some Toughness feats. Best self-healing in game, imo.

Wizza
12-30-2013, 05:27 AM
@ Wizza

Take it whatever way you want. I'll likely never even see you in game as we play on different servers. I don't know or care how you play, but I see what you post and everything points to either a Group-heavy play style or a pot-chugger.

You may not be, but you'll never be able to prove it to me.

I don't need to prove anything to you. The sole fact that you suggest someone to take Improved Mental Toughness for 2% crit chance :rolleyes: while leveling (or Toughness at lv1 for a total grant of..FOUR HP) makes me glad we are not on the same server. But since the OP was asking for help, I needed to point out how bad of a "suggestion" that was (or how bad was NOT taking Empower and Maximize as your first feats to get uber free SLAs).

Anyway, my suggestions are above.

Azurchaos
12-30-2013, 06:39 AM
If you planned on staying Air/Fire Savant, I'd also recommend looking into 2 FvS levels and grabbing some enhancements out of the Angel of Vengeance tree. It synergizes very well with Sorc/Fire.

i Had seen your Toaster Of Vengeance post and the itea is good. so far gonna take 6 sorc then 2 pala rest sorc.

If i did do fvs i would like to ask about ur other post what does 4 fvs lvls give u?

thesnoman
12-31-2013, 06:13 AM
4 FvS is Strictly for the AoV Enhancement line.


Above Level 2 you get the following from enhancements:


+4% chance for Fire/Force/Light/Physical Damage Spells to Crit
+2 Charisma
+3 Caster Levels to Fire/Force/Light/Physical Damage Spells


+14 Universal Spell Power (from points spent in the AoV tree)


Keep in mind that the chance to crit. is the key point here.
From Tier 2 AoV - Just Reward (3/3): When you Critically Hit with Fire/Force/Light/Physical Damage Spells you gain 10 temporary Spell Points


The higher your Crit Chance, the more temporary spell points you get and the longer your blue bar lasts

Keep in mind that 4 Levels of FvS is not REQUIRED - it's Optimal for the play style most people fall into when playing the Toaster Build. If you want the higher level spells from Sorcerer plus Knockdown Immunity and Wings, you can go 18/2 FvS with Tier 5 Air Savant, Tier 4 Fire Savant, and Tier 2 Angel of Vengeance and have a great build. You lose out on saves from Pally Levels, but gain DPS.

Azurchaos
12-31-2013, 02:50 PM
Keep in mind that 4 Levels of FvS is not REQUIRED - it's Optimal for the play style most people fall into when playing the Toaster Build. If you want the higher level spells from Sorcerer plus Knockdown Immunity and Wings, you can go 18/2 FvS with Tier 5 Air Savant, Tier 4 Fire Savant, and Tier 2 Angel of Vengeance and have a great build. You lose out on saves from Pally Levels, but gain DPS.

What about a 16/2/2 sorc, pala, FvS.

I realy do like the idea of taking pala levels. (did a group with a 18/2 other day and he was running through things like traps better than the trapper)

thesnoman
12-31-2013, 08:41 PM
What about a 16/2/2 sorc, pala, FvS.

I realy do like the idea of taking pala levels. (did a group with a 18/2 other day and he was running through things like traps better than the trapper)


Yes - this is another popular split - you lose out on Knockdown Immunity since it requires 18 Sorc, but you'll really only miss it once in a great while.

RTFM
12-31-2013, 08:57 PM
1. If you have access to Iconics, go Bladeforged and 2 levels Pali/18 sorc.

2. Even if you don't have access to Bladeforged, the 18 Sorc / 2 Pali build on WF is very nice. Starting stats 18con, MAX CHA, remainder into INT. All level up stat points into CHA.

3. You don't need to worry about STR you can use bull's pots, ship buffs, yugo pots, bulls str spell, items, tensors, etc.

4. Feats: Insightful reflexes, force of personality, mental toughness, improved mental toughness, quicken, maximize, empower are ones you will want in about that order as you level.

You end up with fantastic saves and survivability with solid damage output. Once you max your Draconic ED with some basic twists you are also good to go on ee's.

Azurchaos
01-01-2014, 01:30 AM
1. If you have access to Iconics, go Bladeforged and 2 levels Pali/18 sorc.

4. Feats: Insightful reflexes, force of personality, mental toughness, improved mental toughness, quicken, maximize, empower are ones you will want in about that order as you level.
.

I had thought about using the iconic. Hoever im gong for completionist with this toon.

As for feats. Force of Personality would be a waste. With 2 levels of paladin you get "Divine Grace (Increases your saves + CHA mod)"