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Zoda
12-14-2013, 06:29 AM
Okay, so for now, this is nothing but theorycrafting, as I'm not sure that the main interaction I'd base this build on works (namely if cormyrian knight training 1/3 cha mod to sunder DC affects QP or not) . As the title says, this build's main focus would be on Quivering Palm, improving it's DC by Cormyrian Knight training and using Celestias (or celestia + some other shortsword, like random gen sundering +14 if that exists, or alchemical) to get the charisma based damage and stay centered via ninja spy.

Copied from wiki (yeah I know, not the most reliable source, but I can't test this in game atm):
Quivering Palm may now be used with Monk weapons.
Quivering Palm now gains DC bonuses from all enhancements, feats, items, and Epic Destiny abilities that increase Sunder DC.

PDK 16 monk 2 fighter 2 paladin

STR 10
DEX 14
CON 14
WIS 16
INT 8
CHA 16

Level ups to CHA or WIS, depending on the ending DC of Quivering Palm, and destiny (there are a lot of viable options depending on what you might want to do).

Feats should be pretty obvious + improved sunder. 2 fighter for +3 DC, 3 extra action boost uses and 2 feats, 2 pally for saves (at the cost of 1 DC but oh well).

Other splits are certainly possible, but don't forget that you need at least 15 monk for QP. I can see pure 20 monk (for ninja spy capstone), 15 monk 3 ranger 2 fighter/pally or even 15 monk 5 ranger working, but keep in mind if the DC on QP is not uber, the build has very limited dps, so might not worth sacrificing even a few points of DC to improve dps.

Gear should be mostly obvious as well so I'm not bothering to give a layout on it until I know if the build even works.

Nightmanis
12-14-2013, 02:44 PM
Okay, so for now, this is nothing but theorycrafting, as I'm not sure that the main interaction I'd base this build on works (namely if cormyrian knight training 1/3 cha mod to sunder DC affects QP or not) . As the title says, this build's main focus would be on Quivering Palm, improving it's DC by Cormyrian Knight training and using Celestias (or celestia + some other shortsword, like random gen sundering +14 if that exists, or alchemical) to get the charisma based damage and stay centered via ninja spy.

Copied from wiki (yeah I know, not the most reliable source, but I can't test this in game atm):
Quivering Palm may now be used with Monk weapons.
Quivering Palm now gains DC bonuses from all enhancements, feats, items, and Epic Destiny abilities that increase Sunder DC.

PDK 16 monk 2 fighter 2 paladin

STR 10
DEX 14
CON 14
WIS 16
INT 8
CHA 16

Level ups to CHA or WIS, depending on the ending DC of Quivering Palm, and destiny (there are a lot of viable options depending on what you might want to do).

Feats should be pretty obvious + improved sunder. 2 fighter for +3 DC, 3 extra action boost uses and 2 feats, 2 pally for saves (at the cost of 1 DC but oh well).

Other splits are certainly possible, but don't forget that you need at least 15 monk for QP. I can see pure 20 monk (for ninja spy capstone), 15 monk 3 ranger 2 fighter/pally or even 15 monk 5 ranger working, but keep in mind if the DC on QP is not uber, the build has very limited dps, so might not worth sacrificing even a few points of DC to improve dps.

Gear should be mostly obvious as well so I'm not bothering to give a layout on it until I know if the build even works.

Wait, you can QP stuff while holding a shortsword?

cdr
12-14-2013, 02:59 PM
Wait, you can QP stuff while holding a shortsword?

Yes, that was a U19ush change. QP works with melee weapons, but you still have to be centered and have at least 16 monk levels (which rules out centered kensai, leaving pretty much just longsword, shortsword, kama, quarterstaff).

Pilgrim1
12-14-2013, 11:34 PM
Level ups to CHA or WIS, depending on the ending DC of Quivering Palm, and destiny (there are a lot of viable options depending on what you might want to do).

Feats should be pretty obvious + improved sunder. 2 fighter for +3 DC, 3 extra action boost uses and 2 feats, 2 pally for saves (at the cost of 1 DC but oh well).



I thought about this for a bit as well. As far as I can tell, yes this works, but only if you have a weapon in hand and its one of the PDK weapons, so basically short sword only. Now the thing about this is that dwarf/half orc/warforged/bladeforged all get +3 tactics to so your charisma modifier has to be at least +12 to get even 1 DC more then your other options. So from a pure DC perspective its not really possible to manage more then 1-2 more DC at max from this. Another downside to this is it forces you into the short sword rout, stunning fist does not get these bonuses to DC (but then it may be high enough that it will not matter). Also with 2 pally you may trying to work in divine might which renders the charisma to damage portion of PDK not very useful as well as nullifying your tactics boost if your str gets above your charisma.

However on the flip side you do end up with +8-15 bonus saves from pally aura, better heal amp, more skills, and an extra feet on top of damage boost, so its got to be better then a human for this type of build.

Just some food for thoughts, good luck!

Ayseifn
12-15-2013, 02:53 AM
This something I keep looking at but am really struggling to make work without Completionist and basically a full set of +5 tomes. It's hard to get charisma up to a decent level and not taking OC means your DPS will be pretty abysmal, better off with dwarf/forged so you can get more DPS I'd guess.

16/13/9/8/16/16 for stats, all levelups in cha would get you a cha of 52-53 so a tactics mod of +7. This includes tome, completionist, +11/1/2-3 from items, 1 enh, 3 boost, 2 yugo, and 2 ship. Wisdom of ~52 while in water stance and same buffs but +3-4 from enhancements, twist in +6 tactics, Cocoon and maybe Bane of Undeath, Extra boost, Sense Weakness, Acute Instincts, something else I forgot for the last one.

QP DC should be 76+, which I think is ok ATM but not sure as I don't run any DC based toons these days. 16 str is for OC so boss DPS might be sub par but hopefully still decent, Bane of Undeath is so you can rock DM and swap to wraps if you need to for whatever reason. You should be able to get a str of 60+ easily if someone has Primal scream, so it'd be useful for helping with the to-hit issues you'll likely see.

TBH though that sounds like a ton of effort to make a viable toon and you'll probably get better results with something else. Henshin luck out a bit as I think that QP procs on offhand attacks, but I did have a dex acrobat/HM with a to-hit of ~100 not too long ago and getting no fail QPs might not be too hard to add to that so that point may be moot.

Munkenmo
12-15-2013, 05:28 AM
For fun I just recently underwent this same effort to try work out the maximum quivering palm DC.

Here were my theory crafted results:



Wisdom
Charisma
Quivering Palm




18 wisdom
7 levels
5 tome
3 epic feats
11 item
4 ocean stance
5 insightful (shintao void dragon)
1 exceptional
3 class enhancement
1 PDK
3 actionboost
2 ship buff
2 yugo
2 store pot
3 alchemical potion
5 ED
2 Acute instincts twist
2 bard song
1 twist
4 profane (abishai cookies)
84 wisdom (37 base)




18 cha
5 tome
10 item
5 insight
1 exceptional
1 enhancement (racial)
3 actionboost
1 enhancement (henshin)
2 ship
2 yugo
2 store bought
2 alchemical
4 abishai
2 bard song
58 cha




10 base
8 monk levels
37 wis mod
8 third of cha mod
3 gmof core tactics
13 shattering item
6 exceptional mastery
3 Kensai
6 legendary tactics (twist)
2 Epic Tactics (ED Feat)
96 First life Subtotal
1 completionist wisdom
3 fighter pastlives
100 Highest possible Quivering palm





Notes:
This was a max Quivering Palm DC Theory crafting exercise:


This means no level ups in charisma.
I splashed 2 fighter for PDK. it's cost me 2 capstone wisdom and 2 quivering palm DC's. I've made that up in saved AP's by getting 3kensai tactics and evening out my cha and wisdom. The DC overall is the same, but splashing fighter nets 2 extra action boosts.

zurnad
01-11-2014, 07:47 PM
For fun I just recently underwent this same effort to try work out the maximum quivering palm DC.

Here were my theory crafted results:



Wisdom
Charisma
Quivering Palm




18 wisdom
7 levels
5 tome
3 epic feats
11 item
4 ocean stance
5 insightful (shintao void dragon)
1 exceptional
3 class enhancement
1 PDK
3 actionboost
2 ship buff
2 yugo
2 store pot
3 alchemical potion
5 ED
2 Acute instincts twist
2 bard song
1 twist
4 profane (abishai cookies)
84 wisdom (37 base)




18 cha
5 tome
10 item
5 insight
1 exceptional
1 enhancement (racial)
3 actionboost
1 enhancement (henshin)
2 ship
2 yugo
2 store bought
2 alchemical
4 abishai
2 bard song
58 cha




10 base
8 monk levels
37 wis mod
8 third of cha mod
3 gmof core tactics
13 shattering item
6 exceptional mastery
3 Kensai
6 legendary tactics (twist)
2 Epic Tactics (ED Feat)
96 First life Subtotal
1 completionist wisdom
3 fighter pastlives
100 Highest possible Quivering palm





Notes:
This was a max Quivering Palm DC Theory crafting exercise:


This means no level ups in charisma.
I splashed 2 fighter for PDK. it's cost me 2 capstone wisdom and 2 quivering palm DC's. I've made that up in saved AP's by getting 3kensai tactics and evening out my cha and wisdom. The DC overall is the same, but splashing fighter nets 2 extra action boosts.



Can u confirm "Cormyrean Knight Training" for charisma mod/3 works to increase quivering palm dc??
Thank you.

Shaatan
01-11-2014, 08:03 PM
Can u confirm "Cormyrean Knight Training" for charisma mod/3 works to increase quivering palm dc??
Thank you.

It does work. The only thing is that it adds the extra DCs to QP and Kukan - Do, but not to Stunning Fist (I guess because technically you shouldn't be able to use SF with swords). I've been playing similar build for a few months now and it's a beast! Except my build has 2 druid levels, so I can bypass the handwraps requirement for Stunning Fist. In wolf form my attacks count as unarmed, so I can use all the monk attacks (including Stunning Fist) while using swords, having CHA as my dmg/to hit and gaining extra DCs from Cormyrean Knight Training. Being WIS/CHA based is also pretty nice for Kukan - Do, which is CHA based.

maddong
01-11-2014, 08:12 PM
Wow, that is pretty slick. What is your cha mod and your final DCs on stunning fist, quivering palm, and kukan do?

Do acrobats in wolf form using a staff get an additional 15% attack speed then?

Shaatan
01-11-2014, 08:31 PM
Wow, that is pretty slick. What is your cha mod and your final DCs on stunning fist, quivering palm, and kukan do?

Do acrobats in wolf form using a staff get an additional 15% attack speed then?

My CHA mod is 13 in human form and 12 in wolf form (wolf gives -2 CHA).
DCs are:

Quivering Palm - 81
Stunning Fist - 83
Kukan - Do - 74
Everything is Nothing & Drifting Lotus - 65

This is only with ship buffs and yugo pots for buffs. Also, I'm using just +10 shattering and stunning items.

I have no idea if Acrobat thing increases attack speed in wolf form.

I didn't go full ****** with DCs, because I also wanted some defense and DPS. As DCs are right now, they are enough to stun/instant kill pretty much any mob in game.

zurnad
01-11-2014, 08:37 PM
My CHA mod is 13 in human form and 12 in wolf form (wolf gives -2 CHA).
DCs are:

Quivering Palm - 81
Stunning Fist - 83
Kukan - Do - 74
Everything is Nothing & Drifting Lotus - 65

This is only with ship buffs and yugo pots for buffs. Also, I'm using just +10 shattering and stunning items.

I have no idea if Acrobat thing increases attack speed in wolf form.


ty for the reply and can you breakdown your qp dc please?

Munkenmo
01-11-2014, 08:38 PM
Acrobat wolfs do not benefit from increased attack speed.

Shataan is your cha mod still effecting your stunning fist and qp dc's in animal form? Always figured thered be a conflict with you being counted as unarmed.

If so I may end up making a 15monk/2fighter/3druid

Shaatan
01-11-2014, 09:03 PM
ty for the reply and can you breakdown your qp dc please?

10 Base
8 Monk levels
10 Shatter
3 GMoF
3 Kensai
6 Legendary Tactics
2 Tactican
6 Combat Mastery
27 Wisdom
4 Cormyrean Knight Training
2 Fighter Past Lives
----------------------------------------
81 Total



Shataan is your cha mod still effecting your stunning fist and qp dc's in animal form? Always figured thered be a conflict with you being counted as unarmed.

If so I may end up making a 15monk/2fighter/3druid

As I mentioned before, it is affecting Quivering Palm and Kukan - Do DCs, but not Stunning Fist. This is probably because technically you shouldn't be able to use Stunning Fist with swords in hands. Also, yes, it does work in wolf form. Another cool thing about wolf form is that you hit faster than with wraps, so you have better ki generation, which is the limiting factor for this build.

PS.

About the build you are considering. 16 monk gives you 1 more DC and I don't know about you but, I wouldn't be able to find 12 AP to put in Nature's Warrior tree just to get Fatal Harrier.

Zoda
01-12-2014, 05:32 AM
Do acrobats in wolf form using a staff get an additional 15% attack speed then?

I had high hopes about that, was pretty disappointed when I rolled up an iconic to test it, you not only don't get the speed bonus, but neither any of the other qstaff specific bonuses.

Cormyrian Knight Training is not affecting Stunning Fist, because it is not a tactical move, same reason why you can't use it to charge blitz.

On ki generation being the limiting factor: my main is a 12 monk 6 ranger 2 fighter mainly melee focused blitzer (using WWA and all), and I used to have issues with ki generation, as I try to spam stun/kukan-do/shadow fade, use 10k stars from time to time, while also being an abundant step addict. My solution was Alchemist's Pendant, it was completely game changing for me, I'd suggest it to anyone playing similar ki hungry builds, it worths the slot imo (and it's not too hard to switch it).

Shaatan
01-12-2014, 05:56 AM
Cormyrian Knight Training is not affecting Stunning Fist, because it is not a tactical move, same reason why you can't use it to charge blitz.

Stunning Fist is listed on wiki as Tactical Feat: http://ddowiki.com/page/Tactical_feat
Funny thing is that Cormyrean Knight Training does affect Kukan - Do, which is not even a feat at all lol.



On ki generation being the limiting factor: my main is a 12 monk 6 ranger 2 fighter mainly melee focused blitzer (using WWA and all), and I used to have issues with ki generation, as I try to spam stun/kukan-do/shadow fade, use 10k stars from time to time, while also being an abundant step addict. My solution was Alchemist's Pendant, it was completely game changing for me, I'd suggest it to anyone playing similar ki hungry builds, it worths the slot imo (and it's not too hard to switch it).

I'm using Spider - spun Caparison for +1 Ehnanced ki. While it's not that great for DPS focused monk, it works pretty good for QP build. I rather rarely find myself in a situation that I'm completely out of ki, but then I just switch to fire stance and after a few seconds of punching the bar is full.

Zoda
01-12-2014, 07:26 AM
Stunning Fist is listed on wiki as Tactical Feat: http://ddowiki.com/page/Tactical_feat
Funny thing is that Cormyrean Knight Training does affect Kukan-Do


I think wiki is wrong there, at least blitz is not counting it as one, and if the game identified it as a tactic move, it should. Not like it makes any difference, it is not working either way :)

My explanation for it affecting Kukan-Do and QP is in the wording of their tooltips ("Any effects that modify your Stunning Blow or Stunning Fist DC's also affect this ability." - same for QP). CKT affects stunning blow and sunder, hence it affects Kukan-Do and QP.

Btw your idea of 2 druid levels made me start brainstorming... if I can fit in manyshot there, hmm... would be annoying to play, but I spare the 3 feat slots for not having to take TWF feats, and I'd get QP. How is your selfheal in wolf form? If I can't heal enough to solo ee then it is a no go for my main. Or are you dropping form every time you want to scroll heal?

Shaatan
01-12-2014, 07:46 AM
How is your selfheal in wolf form? If I can't heal enough to solo ee then it is a no go for my main. Or are you dropping form every time you want to scroll heal?

Self heal is pretty good. Cocoon and Wholeness of Spirit can be used while in wolf form. I also have Heal Scrolls with +75% boost from Scroll Mastery, if I'm in a pinch. I need to drop form to use them, so it's not very comfortable, but it's still good to have this option if something goes wrong and I take too much dmg. I also have the Healing Curse from Light Monk move, which heals for quite a bit with wolf attack speed. I rarely even have to use Cocoon while dealing even with the toughest EE bosses thanks to 104 PRR, Improved Deception, Unbalancing Strike, Healing Curse and wolf attack speed. The build is pretty solid for soloing EEs. In fact it's faster and easier to solo EEs on this toon than on my AA or shiradis lol.

Zoda
01-12-2014, 08:11 AM
Self heal is pretty good. Cocoon and Wholeness of Spirit can be used while in wolf form. I also have Heal Scrolls with +75% boost from Scroll Mastery, if I'm in a pinch. I need to drop form to use them, so it's not very comfortable, but it's still good to have this option if something goes wrong and I take too much dmg. I also have the Healing Curse from Light Monk move, which heals for quite a bit with wolf attack speed. I rarely even have to use Cocoon while dealing even with the toughest EE bosses thanks to 104 PRR, Improved Deception, Unbalancing Strike, Healing Curse and wolf attack speed. The build is pretty solid for soloing EEs. In fact it's faster and easier to solo EEs on this toon than on my AA or shiradis lol.

Interesting. What weapons are you using? I assume Celestia and air/water alchemical shortsword, or is there a better option? Is Empty Hand Mastery working in wolf form?

I just rolled up one as iconic and it looks Whirlwind Attack is not working properly in wolf form either, it's a shame, I love it on my current build.

Munkenmo
01-12-2014, 08:59 AM
Btw your idea of 2 druid levels made me start brainstorming... if I can fit in manyshot there, hmm... would be annoying to play, but I spare the 3 feat slots for not having to take TWF feats

TWF feats are currently working in animal forms.

Zoda
01-12-2014, 09:57 AM
TWF feats are currently working in animal forms.

Are they? In that case I've been misinformed by the only wolf player I could find online :D

Are they supposed to work?

Munkenmo
01-12-2014, 10:40 AM
Are they? In that case I've been misinformed by the only wolf player I could find online :D

Are they supposed to work?

They're not meant to, but they are for now, and have been for quite a while.

Zoda
01-12-2014, 11:16 AM
They're not meant to, but they are for now, and have been for quite a while.

Great, so now I'm taking 5 feats on a toon to abuse malfunctioning mechanics (3 twf, pb shot, prec. shot). Amazing. Guess I won't be able to fit manyshot then.

Shaatan
01-12-2014, 01:34 PM
Interesting. What weapons are you using? I assume Celestia and air/water alchemical shortsword, or is there a better option? Is Empty Hand Mastery working in wolf form?


Those are exactly the weapons that I'm using and Empty Hand Mastery does work in wolf form.

Zoda
01-12-2014, 02:10 PM
Those are exactly the weapons that I'm using and Empty Hand Mastery does work in wolf form.

Great! Thanks.

MagicalDad
01-12-2014, 05:04 PM
10 Base
8 Monk levels
10 Shatter
3 GMoF
3 Kensai
6 Legendary Tactics
2 Tactican
6 Combat Mastery
27 Wisdom
4 Cormyrean Knight Training
2 Fighter Past Lives
----------------------------------------
81 Total



As I mentioned before, it is affecting Quivering Palm and Kukan - Do DCs, but not Stunning Fist. This is probably because technically you shouldn't be able to use Stunning Fist with swords in hands. Also, yes, it does work in wolf form. Another cool thing about wolf form is that you hit faster than with wraps, so you have better ki generation, which is the limiting factor for this build.

PS.

About the build you are considering. 16 monk gives you 1 more DC and I don't know about you but, I wouldn't be able to find 12 AP to put in Nature's Warrior tree just to get Fatal Harrier.

Do you have a rough outline of this build someplace?

Shaatan
01-12-2014, 05:25 PM
Do you have a rough outline of this build someplace?

Just on my guild's forum. :) I had a pretty bad experience with posting builds here.

raveman1000
01-17-2014, 10:29 PM
Just on my guild's forum. :) I had a pretty bad experience with posting builds here.

I would really be interested in seing your build. Could you send me a private message with your build in it if you dont want to post it here. I would be really gratefull.

Thanks

Sebastrd
01-17-2014, 10:56 PM
I'd love to see it, as well.

Vanhooger
01-21-2014, 11:38 AM
104 PRR

Where all that prr come from? All from earth stance and conflux?

Shaatan
01-21-2014, 11:46 AM
Where all that prr come from? All from earth stance and conflux?

15 Planar Conflux
24 Guardian Ring
10 Epic Damage Reduction
15 Iron Skin
15 Earth Stance
10 Meditation of War
15 Standing with Stone
-------------------------------------
104 Total