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rique31
12-10-2013, 10:07 PM
So, I am an veteran and after 4 years I am coming back to DDO. I always wanted to roll a twf paladin and back then I didnt have patience to unlock the 32 points build (that was before f2p). Well, now I got that and finally rolled the paladin I always wanted, first life, twf. I did a lot of readings again but basically worked on Junts and Rameth (sp?) tips. 16/15/12/9/8/16, balance + UMD + 1 thumble. I decided to roll another toon so I can learn the game again as well since much changed.

Well, right to the point. I am at lvl 8 now (almost 10, but I am banking levels) and to be honest I am disappointed. So far, my running from level 7-8 were terrible and my killing rate is awful. Much to my surprise, when I switch to 2h that improves (sometimes a lot). BY all means, I know that paladin's dps are not that great and I didnt get ITWF and GTWF but I honestly dont think it will make much different at this point. I am dual wielding kops most of the time. I am considering using my lesser heart og the wood to reroll this toon, since i DO plan getting more lives with him later (perhaps even getting the completionist feat, so I will probably have 2-3 lifes with him as paladin). I will def not run endgame with this version of him (that was set even before that). So I would like to hear comments and ideas. I think it was Rameth himself who said in a thread that going thf is the better thing for first life (even with 32pts). Right now I honestly think that I'd improve my performance going 2h, getting more CON and STR and CHAR.

Thanks in advance.

Jasparion
12-10-2013, 10:11 PM
So, I am an veteran and after 4 years I am coming back to DDO. I always wanted to roll a twf paladin and back then I didnt have patience to unlock the 32 points build (that was before f2p). Well, now I got that and finally rolled the paladin I always wanted, first life, twf. I did a lot of readings again but basically worked on Junts and Rameth (sp?) tips. 16/15/12/9/8/16, balance + UMD + 1 thumble. I decided to roll another toon so I can learn the game again as well since much changed.

Well, right to the point. I am at lvl 8 now (almost 10, but I am banking levels) and to be honest I am disappointed. So far, my running from level 7-8 were terrible and my killing rate is awful. Much to my surprise, when I switch to 2h that improves (sometimes a lot). BY all means, I know that paladin's dps are not that great and I didnt get ITWF and GTWF but I honestly dont think it will make much different at this point. I am dual wielding kops most of the time. I am considering using my lesser heart og the wood to reroll this toon, since i DO plan getting more lives with him later (perhaps even getting the completionist feat, so I will probably have 2-3 lifes with him as paladin). I will def not run endgame with this version of him (that was set even before that). So I would like to hear comments and ideas. I think it was Rameth himself who said in a thread that going thf is the better thing for first life (even with 32pts). Right now I honestly think that I'd improve my performance going 2h, getting more CON and STR and CHAR.

Thanks in advance.

If you take a couple of Fighter levels you can start developing the Kensai tree which will improve things a lot. If you want to stay pure then you have to accept that your DPS will struggle.

rique31
12-10-2013, 10:16 PM
If you take a couple of Fighter levels you can start developing the Kensai tree which will improve things a lot. If you want to stay pure then you have to accept that your DPS will struggle.

My plan is to stay pure, even not being my ultimate build of this toon... For flavor only.

maddmatt70
12-10-2013, 10:24 PM
So, I am an veteran and after 4 years I am coming back to DDO. I always wanted to roll a twf paladin and back then I didnt have patience to unlock the 32 points build (that was before f2p). Well, now I got that and finally rolled the paladin I always wanted, first life, twf. I did a lot of readings again but basically worked on Junts and Rameth (sp?) tips. 16/15/12/9/8/16, balance + UMD + 1 thumble. I decided to roll another toon so I can learn the game again as well since much changed.

Well, right to the point. I am at lvl 8 now (almost 10, but I am banking levels) and to be honest I am disappointed. So far, my running from level 7-8 were terrible and my killing rate is awful. Much to my surprise, when I switch to 2h that improves (sometimes a lot). BY all means, I know that paladin's dps are not that great and I didnt get ITWF and GTWF but I honestly dont think it will make much different at this point. I am dual wielding kops most of the time. I am considering using my lesser heart og the wood to reroll this toon, since i DO plan getting more lives with him later (perhaps even getting the completionist feat, so I will probably have 2-3 lifes with him as paladin). I will def not run endgame with this version of him (that was set even before that). So I would like to hear comments and ideas. I think it was Rameth himself who said in a thread that going thf is the better thing for first life (even with 32pts). Right now I honestly think that I'd improve my performance going 2h, getting more CON and STR and CHAR.

Thanks in advance.

low levels 1-10 favor two handed fighting. Not saying that paladin end game is great, but it is not like two handed end game paladins are really that much better the two weapon fighting paladins at the end game.

Qhualor
12-10-2013, 10:48 PM
i did a TWF dwarf Paladin life after the enhancement changes and i was so upset with the dps, i took 2 levels of monk and wore wraps the rest of the way to 20. monk makes everything better.

Krelar
12-10-2013, 11:29 PM
Well, right to the point. I am at lvl 8 now (almost 10, but I am banking levels) and to be honest I am disappointed. So far, my running from level 7-8 were terrible and my killing rate is awful. Much to my surprise, when I switch to 2h that improves (sometimes a lot). BY all means, I know that paladin's dps are not that great and I didnt get ITWF and GTWF but I honestly dont think it will make much different at this point. I am dual wielding kops most of the time. I am considering using my lesser heart og the wood to reroll this toon, since i DO plan getting more lives with him later (perhaps even getting the completionist feat, so I will probably have 2-3 lifes with him as paladin). I will def not run endgame with this version of him (that was set even before that). So I would like to hear comments and ideas. I think it was Rameth himself who said in a thread that going thf is the better thing for first life (even with 32pts). Right now I honestly think that I'd improve my performance going 2h, getting more CON and STR and CHAR.


If you've been gone 4 years you may have missed the change (nerf) to two-weapon fighting. You do not automatically get an attack with your off hand it is now a percent chance. With just two-weapon fighting the chance of an offhand attack is only 40%. ITWF raises it to 60% and GTWF raises it to 80%. So those two feats would double the number of off hand attacks you are getting right now. (Basically they are mandatory for two-weapon fighting take them as soon as you can)

aristarchus1000
12-11-2013, 12:15 AM
Even on my rangers I use THF until I get the gtwf feat. Also khopeshes don't get all that great until you get the high damage mods of late game builds. On my TWF builds I generally don't use khopeshes until level 12 not because of greensteels from previous life. If I didn't have those, I would probably wait until level 16 (challenge khopeshes).

Overall, greataxes are just a lot better for heroic low and middle leveling. The controversy of THF vs TWF is a debate for high levels.

Munkenmo
12-11-2013, 02:33 AM
feats:
power attack
cleave
great cleave
improved crit
2wf (thf)
i2wf (ithf)
g2wf (gthf)

Times have changed since you quit and since Junts updated his guide. Picking up 2wf on a 28pt paladin early is a bad idea.

If you're going to LR level up with your feats in the above order, don't swap from a 2handed weapon to 2wf until you've unlocked all the 2wf feats.

You didn't mention your race, If you're human pick up exotic weapons if not stick with scimitars in 2wf.

Cleaves are significantly better than they used to be, and are a pre req for the epic feat Overwhelming Critical. It is a mistake to level a melee toon without them now.

If it's a pastlife build I don't understand your desire to stay pure. splashing 2monk and/or 2fighter would provide you a large boost.

rique31
12-11-2013, 04:59 AM
feats:
power attack
cleave
great cleave
improved crit
2wf (thf)
i2wf (ithf)
g2wf (gthf)

Times have changed since you quit and since Junts updated his guide. Picking up 2wf on a 28pt paladin early is a bad idea.

If you're going to LR level up with your feats in the above order, don't swap from a 2handed weapon to 2wf until you've unlocked all the 2wf feats.

You didn't mention your race, If you're human pick up exotic weapons if not stick with scimitars in 2wf.

Cleaves are significantly better than they used to be, and are a pre req for the epic feat Overwhelming Critical. It is a mistake to level a melee toon without them now.

If it's a pastlife build I don't understand your desire to stay pure. splashing 2monk and/or 2fighter would provide you a large boost.

As I said, this is a 32pts build and I am human, the only race that I personally think makes sense on a paladin stats wise but the drow (if 32pts are not aviable). I also said I am using kops, so I have exotic weapon unlock already. I dont understand why pick. Since this is a first life, I'd like to recreate a paladin I made for Eberron. So this is a flavor run (no pum intented). In my next life I will make some splashs with monk and fighter so I can get these class bonus when use epic heart of the wood. The feats you got are great for a 2h build and that would be my choices as well, thanks.

@Krelar, thats really interesting... I am kinda shocked, this is a huge nerf. This also makes a huge point to madmat comment... Because at low-mid levels we are basically running with 2 weapon but basically using 1.

I dont have a +2 tome unlocked (15dex+2 = itwf/gtwf) and at this point I plan unlocked it thru favor. I have a warforged fighter "frozen" since p2p-f2p convrsion. I guess he is lvl1 since I never play with him back then. After all these comments I am hugely inclined to spend my tp on that race. Or get the monk.

Inoukchuk
12-11-2013, 08:57 AM
As I said, this is a 32pts build and I am human, the only race that I personally think makes sense on a paladin stats wise but the drow (if 32pts are not aviable). I also said I am using kops, so I have exotic weapon unlock already. I dont understand why pick. Since this is a first life, I'd like to recreate a paladin I made for Eberron. So this is a flavor run (no pum intented). In my next life I will make some splashs with monk and fighter so I can get these class bonus when use epic heart of the wood. The feats you got are great for a 2h build and that would be my choices as well, thanks.

@Krelar, thats really interesting... I am kinda shocked, this is a huge nerf. This also makes a huge point to madmat comment... Because at low-mid levels we are basically running with 2 weapon but basically using 1.

I dont have a +2 tome unlocked (15dex+2 = itwf/gtwf) and at this point I plan unlocked it thru favor. I have a warforged fighter "frozen" since p2p-f2p convrsion. I guess he is lvl1 since I never play with him back then. After all these comments I am hugely inclined to spend my tp on that race. Or get the monk.

I'm not at all surprised by you having this experience for the following reasons:
1) TWF is awful until you at least have 70% off hand. Even on my Ginsu build TWF khopesh fighter/ranger/monk (front-loaded with ranger for TWF feats) I used Carnifex until level 8 when I had ITWF and 10% off-hand from ranger (might have even waited til level 9 for imp crit)
2) Paladin is a VERY stat intensive class and TWF is even more stat intensive, it's really not something I recommend on a 32 pt build with no tomes as there is really just no way to get meaningful STR, CHA, CON, and DEX as required by the build
3) flavor is for food, pure paladin sucks, don't do it. Adding 2 monk and 2-3 fighter will make the build MUCH stronger


But if you are set on moving forward I would absolutely make getting TWF, ITWF, GTWF, and imp crit (in that order) a priority. And build yourself some level 12 khopeshes from the house C challenges...+4 paralyzing, icy burst, crushing wave will absolutely dominate until practically epic levels, and you can use them as early as level 10 if you have master craftsmanship, and as you level add screaming/bleeding/holy since they're craftable +3 (though thinking about it you likely don't have crafting skills). Even without crafting skills.... dominant.

Munkenmo
12-11-2013, 02:47 PM
As I said, this is a 32pts build and I am human, the only race that I personally think makes sense on a paladin stats wise but the drow (if 32pts are not aviable). I also said I am using kops, so I have exotic weapon unlock already. I dont understand why pick. Since this is a first life, I'd like to recreate a paladin I made for Eberron. So this is a flavor run (no pum intented).

@Krelar, thats really interesting... I am kinda shocked, this is a huge nerf. This also makes a huge point to madmat comment... Because at low-mid levels we are basically running with 2 weapon but basically using 1.

Sorry I still don't see where you put your race in the OP, it's probably referenced in junt's guide, but I can't be bothered searching for other threads on my phone.

That aside, the feat layout I presented is the most effective way of leveling a pure melee paladin whether 2wf or 2hf. I put exotic khopesh in there as you said you're considering an LR. Once you've LRed you've gotta pick the feat up somewhere.

You're stating it's a flavor build, but you're not enjoying it. You stated you're considering LR'ing, so I gave you an up to date list of feats to take, in order. I'm not sure what else you're after from the rest of us:

You're not going to splash
you're not going to pick up cleaves
you're not willing to run with a 2handed weapon

But you're unhappy with your build and turning down all the advice as given. I guess at least now you know why 2wf is so sub par in the lowest levels.

Goodluck with your pally, I hope you learn how to have fun with it.

rique31
12-11-2013, 06:34 PM
Sorry I still don't see where you put your race in the OP, it's probably referenced in junt's guide, but I can't be bothered searching for other threads on my phone.

That aside, the feat layout I presented is the most effective way of leveling a pure melee paladin whether 2wf or 2hf. I put exotic khopesh in there as you said you're considering an LR. Once you've LRed you've gotta pick the feat up somewhere.

You're stating it's a flavor build, but you're not enjoying it. You stated you're considering LR'ing, so I gave you an up to date list of feats to take, in order. I'm not sure what else you're after from the rest of us:

You're not going to splash
you're not going to pick up cleaves
you're not willing to run with a 2handed weapon

But you're unhappy with your build and turning down all the advice as given. I guess at least now you know why 2wf is so sub par in the lowest levels.

Goodluck with your pally, I hope you learn how to have fun with it.

Thanks man and really, I am kinda sad with the changes in game. TWF is always my fav route for fighters/DPSers but now I figure that is pretty much screwed for lower levels OR everyone without a +2 tome for dex. But you got me wrong, I **am** willing to run with a 2h weapon. Actually my post is about that since right now I am using one (even specc to twf) and I am considering using a lesser heart of wood to reconfigure the whole character to 2h damage dealer so I can unlock the tome and in a future version I can get him back to twf. Being human is not something taken from Junts. I didnt mentioned he was human on my first topic. I only used Junts guide (like I did 4 years ago) to know some rules in DDO since I am very aware and skilled in PnP 3.x. And I play D&D since AD&D, thats why humans are the only race I can see as paladin till this very day. Thats something totally personal of course. :)

About flavor being for food, I always try mix 2 things on my chars: min/max and some flavor because sometimes I need these little things to get them like I design. Right here, I can say that staying as a pure paladin is one of them (something I always, always do in my D&D games). Another one: I'll probably move from follower of sovereign host to silver flame. That will add a bit of flavor to my character since I always enjoyed the order and my favorite figure from all D&D miniatures is a paladin from the silver flame. I will lost uniwielding soverity (sp?) but I will get a minor flavor to play with my paladin.

Ungood
12-11-2013, 06:44 PM
I am wondering did they also make it so that Oversized TWF is a percent as opposed to a flat -4, like they revised TWF to be?

Inoukchuk
12-12-2013, 09:22 AM
Thanks man and really, I am kinda sad with the changes in game. TWF is always my fav route for fighters/DPSers but now I figure that is pretty much screwed for lower levels OR everyone without a +2 tome for dex. But you got me wrong, I **am** willing to run with a 2h weapon. Actually my post is about that since right now I am using one (even specc to twf) and I am considering using a lesser heart of wood to reconfigure the whole character to 2h damage dealer so I can unlock the tome and in a future version I can get him back to twf. Being human is not something taken from Junts. I didnt mentioned he was human on my first topic. I only used Junts guide (like I did 4 years ago) to know some rules in DDO since I am very aware and skilled in PnP 3.x. And I play D&D since AD&D, thats why humans are the only race I can see as paladin till this very day. Thats something totally personal of course. :)

About flavor being for food, I always try mix 2 things on my chars: min/max and some flavor because sometimes I need these little things to get them like I design. Right here, I can say that staying as a pure paladin is one of them (something I always, always do in my D&D games). Another one: I'll probably move from follower of sovereign host to silver flame. That will add a bit of flavor to my character since I always enjoyed the order and my favorite figure from all D&D miniatures is a paladin from the silver flame. I will lost uniwielding soverity (sp?) but I will get a minor flavor to play with my paladin.

Dung has flavor too, I'm guessing about the same flavor as pure paladin of the silver flame, but I've never tried either for obvious reasons. You're free to try what you want, but as stated above, if you're going to ignore good advice to make bad decisions, don't be surprised when you aren't having fun with it.

Ungood
12-12-2013, 01:05 PM
*sigh*

Ok there is most likely many "normal" mistakes you making with the build.

Gear. This normally kills most builds, you have a somewhat-ok build but the gear is sub-par and that really kills it. Focus on STR, CON, items. make sure you have deadly in your gear list, with some double strike as well. If you plan to hit things, do it right. Also, get things like Shocking Blow (Greater Bold trinket/Charged Gauntlets) and any other proc effect you can think to add to your damage dealing. If a Sword and Board can do it, a sloppy TWF fighter can do it, remember that.

Also, remember to use potions (Haste/Rage) while moving through the zone.

Just keeping yourself buffed can mean the difference between owning the fight, or getting owned. Make sure every damage increase buff you have it going during fights.

Weapons: Focus on what works for the zone, make sure you have what you need to bust heads in, if that means you have dual war hammers and seven different kinds of swords, as well as a maul and a great sword, then that is what you do. Make it happen, have what you need to do optimal damage.

Also, even if you can't hit with your odd hand, you can still add stuff, slot seeker in the off hand, or other stuff that will just do a flat augment to your damage output, tactical feats, or whatever, just make it happen.

Guards (Retributive) stuff works, either work on the misses or work on the hits, either is fine, but don't over look them at all, when you charge into the fight, you should be buffed as much as you can, from ghostly, blur, haste, rage, zeal, divine fervor, divine power, all of it.

Any build can work if you back it up with aggressive/smart play and decent gear.

Trust me, I have played some real winners for builds, but gear, and an idea of how to beat a situation can really make things go your way very quickly, it's not a +20% to hit that is killing you, it's more then not, bad gear and coupled with tactics that don't work for that build, that are killing you.

Work at it, you can do it!

rique31
12-12-2013, 05:11 PM
Dung has flavor too, I'm guessing about the same flavor as pure paladin of the silver flame, but I've never tried either for obvious reasons. You're free to try what you want, but as stated above, if you're going to ignore good advice to make bad decisions, don't be surprised when you aren't having fun with it.

Hmm... Well, I am not ignoring any good advice... Besides, class feats for paladins are mostly irrelevant to game content. I am just trading one major healing for one big turning (SF x UH). Honestly, religions feats in this game are just for flavor. And so far there isnt nothing about bad decision in this build since I am following both what most skilled and experienced players have posted about the class (including junts and his points about 32pts twf havent changed that much) thru all these years plus my own knowledge of both D&D (and DDO) + MMOs.

@Ungood, you hitted the nail. I think that most people truly missed the point of my topic. I am not a noob, I am not someone clueless to D&D and even to DDO. I do not need some basic tips about wich feats pick for thf build or a twf (although I appreciate people that try to help even rushing to answer without taking time to actually read what the oip posted, but that is something usual in all game communities) one or so. My problem so far is with game mechanics and how adapt to it because honestly I am kinda disappointed by how twf works in the game. Your tips are actually quite good, although I am focusing on getting most gear that can add buffs and high survival but I guess I can make more use of potions, wands and buffs. Today I was playing with another class and that actually hitted my mind. I even remember my neverwinter nights days while playing online where we buffed a lot when getting venturing in some area. I really appreciate you response.

There are endless discussiions about splashing or not. I am going pure and thats is not a "bad decision". Its about play what I want. I am starting understanding the game again and the change(nerf) of twf, something I did not know but I truly noticed, makes me push my plan to build a twf paladin for end game to another life (ingame).

BTW I picked my unleveled WF Fighter and updated him to a 32pts. I played with him all day and I had a blast. Indeed, picking some enhancements for kensai tree would boost a lot dps like haste.

Arsont
12-12-2013, 08:44 PM
You are right to be frustrated. Twf is weak early (As noted) and paladins are a class in need of some love. That being said...

You can build for twf and use a two-hander without making any feat swaps or LRing. All you need to do is equip it. I love flavor builds, and I love twf builds. Pure paladin isn't the best min-max class out there, but it works. However, in the current state of the game, it's hard to be a twf early, so you'll have to make a few concessions.

Since you're a full bab class, you should at least have itwf by now. If you don't, I'd suggest using your free feat swap if you haven't already to pick it up. Otherwise, at this early of a level, feat swaps are still pretty cheap. You'll want the full twf chain, and the sooner you have it the better. I don't even try going twf until I have itwf.

You stated you're running with dual khopeshes. I'd suggest using a falchion for now, or dual scimitars (Or a scimitar and shortsword if you're having problems hitting). As noted, khopeshes don't really become that great until you have a high damage mod, so the crit range would help for now.

Splashing is certainly an option, but if you're wanting to stay pure, there's a few things you should keep in mind that will help. Firstly, Divine Might adds your cha mod to str (That is, a 20 charisma give a +5 mod, which would be a +5 str with DM). I'd suggest taking all three ranks of DM to make the most of your turns. Divine Sacrifice is worth investing in for at least the first tier. I wouldn't prioritize putting more points in it until you have everything else you want though, if ever. Exalted Smite is excellent; Pick up all the Extra Smite enhancements you can, and max out your Exalted Smite. Just getting a few clickies into your dps rotation should help make your paladin more playable.

For feats, I'd suggest something like this:

1 Twf
1 *
3 Power Attack
6 Itwf
9 Improved Crit: Slash
12 Gtwf
15 *
18 *

*Feats:Select one of Otwf, Extend or Khopesh. At 15, add Empower heal and Cleave as options. Add Great Cleave as an option at 18 IF you take Cleave at 15.

Personally, if I were to do this build, I'd take Otwf at 1 (Swap to Extend once I get lv 4 spells), Cleave at 15 and Great Cleave or Empower Heal at 18. Empower heal is nice for self-healing. Cleave and Great Cleave unlock Overwhelming Crit, a feat that is almost mandatory for any serious melee now. I'd dual-wield scimitars for the lovely crit range, and to help free up a feat on khopeshes. Extend is a player choice; How often do you want to refresh your buffs, and how much sp do you have to burn?

Anyhow, there's a couple options you can run with. The most important thing is to find a way to fit in your twf chain asap to maximize your fun with the build.

Hope this helps.

goodspeed
12-13-2013, 01:25 PM
My plan is to stay pure, even not being my ultimate build of this toon... For flavor only.

lol dont worry, you won't be getting anywhere near ultimate fighter with a pure pally.

U'll be able to let stuff beat on you though, hunkering down like a brick wall. Raids are obsolete bit now though, but with a group of unamped people in ee that's useful. Seriously don't expect some amazing jump in dps, until you can get to your epic destinies and max out LD and FOTW. Then you should be...mm moderate.

And as said guards would probably account for a good bit of dmg. Especially freezing guards and stuff. I mean ur gonna have like 200 prr anyway, might as well turn that power give up around to something useful dmg wise.

Inoukchuk
12-15-2013, 09:56 PM
You are right to be frustrated. Twf is weak early (As noted) and paladins are a class in need of some love. That being said...

You can build for twf and use a two-hander without making any feat swaps or LRing. All you need to do is equip it. I love flavor builds, and I love twf builds. Pure paladin isn't the best min-max class out there, but it works. However, in the current state of the game, it's hard to be a twf early, so you'll have to make a few concessions.

Since you're a full bab class, you should at least have itwf by now. If you don't, I'd suggest using your free feat swap if you haven't already to pick it up. Otherwise, at this early of a level, feat swaps are still pretty cheap. You'll want the full twf chain, and the sooner you have it the better. I don't even try going twf until I have itwf.

You stated you're running with dual khopeshes. I'd suggest using a falchion for now, or dual scimitars (Or a scimitar and shortsword if you're having problems hitting). As noted, khopeshes don't really become that great until you have a high damage mod, so the crit range would help for now.

Splashing is certainly an option, but if you're wanting to stay pure, there's a few things you should keep in mind that will help. Firstly, Divine Might adds your cha mod to str (That is, a 20 charisma give a +5 mod, which would be a +5 str with DM). I'd suggest taking all three ranks of DM to make the most of your turns. Divine Sacrifice is worth investing in for at least the first tier. I wouldn't prioritize putting more points in it until you have everything else you want though, if ever. Exalted Smite is excellent; Pick up all the Extra Smite enhancements you can, and max out your Exalted Smite. Just getting a few clickies into your dps rotation should help make your paladin more playable.

For feats, I'd suggest something like this:

1 Twf
1 *
3 Power Attack
6 Itwf
9 Improved Crit: Slash
12 Gtwf
15 *
18 *

*Feats:Select one of Otwf, Extend or Khopesh. At 15, add Empower heal and Cleave as options. Add Great Cleave as an option at 18 IF you take Cleave at 15.

Personally, if I were to do this build, I'd take Otwf at 1 (Swap to Extend once I get lv 4 spells), Cleave at 15 and Great Cleave or Empower Heal at 18. Empower heal is nice for self-healing. Cleave and Great Cleave unlock Overwhelming Crit, a feat that is almost mandatory for any serious melee now. I'd dual-wield scimitars for the lovely crit range, and to help free up a feat on khopeshes. Extend is a player choice; How often do you want to refresh your buffs, and how much sp do you have to burn?

Anyhow, there's a couple options you can run with. The most important thing is to find a way to fit in your twf chain asap to maximize your fun with the build.

Hope this helps.

Khopesh is a large damage increase over scimitar. Assuming imp crit a drow khopesh is 15-20/x3 and random gen khopesh is 17-20/x3, and a scimitar is 15-20x2. Counting a regular swing as 1 damge unit and a crit as (mulitplier) damage units that makes a scimitar (including crits and 1's, and assuming hit on 2) 25 units per 20 swings, a khopesh 27 units per 20 swings, and a drow khopesh 31 units per 20 swings. On top of that it has higher base damage and by nature of better crit profile gets more damage from seeker and on crit effects. Or to put this another way, it adds more damage than overwheling critical, which as mentioned is considered a must have on melee now, so .... how important is khopesh feat compared to scimitar? On the other hands, rapiers take you to Balizarde... that's a fine route. Not that anything un-gimps a pure paly of SF, but at least it's a start.

bsquishwizzy
12-17-2013, 04:21 PM
Khopesh is a large damage increase over scimitar. Assuming imp crit a drow khopesh is 15-20/x3 and random gen khopesh is 17-20/x3, and a scimitar is 15-20x2. Counting a regular swing as 1 damge unit and a crit as (mulitplier) damage units that makes a scimitar (including crits and 1's, and assuming hit on 2) 25 units per 20 swings, a khopesh 27 units per 20 swings, and a drow khopesh 31 units per 20 swings. On top of that it has higher base damage and by nature of better crit profile gets more damage from seeker and on crit effects. Or to put this another way, it adds more damage than overwheling critical, which as mentioned is considered a must have on melee now, so .... how important is khopesh feat compared to scimitar? On the other hands, rapiers take you to Balizarde... that's a fine route. Not that anything un-gimps a pure paly of SF, but at least it's a start.

I have a pure pally, that pre Enhancement Pass was S&B khopesh. Post EP, I dropped khopesh and went scimitar. I needed the feats, and the exotic weapon prof. was a prime target.

I can’t honestly say I am upset about dropping the feat.

If you have a genuine DPS problem, weapons with special procs make up a lot of ground on this, and this is amplified with S&B. Your DPS sucks no matter what you do, so it comes down to what do you want to compensate for the loss of raw DPS? Trying to eek out more raw power that isn’t really there, or g in a different direction like instakill and CC weapons? The scimitars proc crits more on average. Depending on the effect, you can do quite a bit in melee that makes you essentially “suck less.”

Saekee
12-17-2013, 05:40 PM
So, I am an veteran and after 4 years I am coming back to DDO. I always wanted to roll a twf paladin and back then I didnt have patience to unlock the 32 points build (that was before f2p). Well, now I got that and finally rolled the paladin I always wanted, first life, twf. I did a lot of readings again but basically worked on Junts and Rameth (sp?) tips. 16/15/12/9/8/16, balance + UMD + 1 thumble. I decided to roll another toon so I can learn the game again as well since much changed.

Well, right to the point. I am at lvl 8 now (almost 10, but I am banking levels) and to be honest I am disappointed. So far, my running from level 7-8 were terrible and my killing rate is awful. Much to my surprise, when I switch to 2h that improves (sometimes a lot). BY all means, I know that paladin's dps are not that great and I didnt get ITWF and GTWF but I honestly dont think it will make much different at this point. I am dual wielding kops most of the time. I am considering using my lesser heart og the wood to reroll this toon, since i DO plan getting more lives with him later (perhaps even getting the completionist feat, so I will probably have 2-3 lifes with him as paladin). I will def not run endgame with this version of him (that was set even before that). So I would like to hear comments and ideas. I think it was Rameth himself who said in a thread that going thf is the better thing for first life (even with 32pts). Right now I honestly think that I'd improve my performance going 2h, getting more CON and STR and CHAR.

Thanks in advance.

Would you like to post your gear, feats, stats, etc? Might help everyone figure out what it going on.

BTW if you love TWF check out the Ranger Tempest tree. By level 11 you have GTWF, and at levels 6 and 12 the tempest core enhancement adds 10% to offhand. So at level 12 you will be using 100% your offhand attacks. If you are heroic TRing, you can go Dexterity over Strength, since tempests get Dex to damage with light weapons and scimitars. The offhand weapon normally only gets 1/2 the strength bonus but with Dex-to-damage builds like tempests and some rogues, the offhand gets 100% the dex damage.
You can then splash Pally after level 12.

Inoukchuk
12-17-2013, 10:02 PM
I have a pure pally, that pre Enhancement Pass was S&B khopesh. Post EP, I dropped khopesh and went scimitar. I needed the feats, and the exotic weapon prof. was a prime target.

I can’t honestly say I am upset about dropping the feat.

If you have a genuine DPS problem, weapons with special procs make up a lot of ground on this, and this is amplified with S&B. Your DPS sucks no matter what you do, so it comes down to what do you want to compensate for the loss of raw DPS? Trying to eek out more raw power that isn’t really there, or g in a different direction like instakill and CC weapons? The scimitars proc crits more on average. Depending on the effect, you can do quite a bit in melee that makes you essentially “suck less.”

If going S&B I would go dwarven axe (preferably) or bastard sword (prefer d-axe for duergar option). The glancing blow damage will account for like 20% of your damage.... you can't tell me any feat that ups your damage 20% isn't worth the slot, and it easily out performs khopesh because of that.

Arsont
12-20-2013, 07:23 PM
Khopesh is a large damage increase over scimitar. Assuming imp crit a drow khopesh is 15-20/x3 and random gen khopesh is 17-20/x3, and a scimitar is 15-20x2. Counting a regular swing as 1 damge unit and a crit as (mulitplier) damage units that makes a scimitar (including crits and 1's, and assuming hit on 2) 25 units per 20 swings, a khopesh 27 units per 20 swings, and a drow khopesh 31 units per 20 swings. On top of that it has higher base damage and by nature of better crit profile gets more damage from seeker and on crit effects. Or to put this another way, it adds more damage than overwheling critical, which as mentioned is considered a must have on melee now, so .... how important is khopesh feat compared to scimitar? On the other hands, rapiers take you to Balizarde... that's a fine route. Not that anything un-gimps a pure paly of SF, but at least it's a start.

Yes, khopesh is a large increase, but it's not a "must-have" feat. I didn't say OC is either, if you'll re-read my post. Sure, if you're looking for max dps, you're probably going with both of those feats. But on a feat starved pally? I'd skip on khopesh.

I suggested scimitars because the OP is a first life, 32 pt build. Nice scimitars are pretty easy/cheap (At least on Sarlona) to come by, and there's a couple half-decent named ones while leveling. You mentioned rapiers, and rapiers are basically the same as a scimitar in this discussion. The main benefit rapiers bring is Balizard. If the OP was interested in grinding out in epics, then by all means, go rapier. The only real difference is the damage type (Slash vs pierce).

Personally, my pally base toon (14/4/2 after u19) is using thf with a falchion for dps, snb with Nightmare otherwise, but to each their own.

Inoukchuk
12-27-2013, 06:05 PM
Yes, khopesh is a large increase, but it's not a "must-have" feat. I didn't say OC is either, if you'll re-read my post. Sure, if you're looking for max dps, you're probably going with both of those feats. But on a feat starved pally? I'd skip on khopesh.

I suggested scimitars because the OP is a first life, 32 pt build. Nice scimitars are pretty easy/cheap (At least on Sarlona) to come by, and there's a couple half-decent named ones while leveling. You mentioned rapiers, and rapiers are basically the same as a scimitar in this discussion. The main benefit rapiers bring is Balizard. If the OP was interested in grinding out in epics, then by all means, go rapier. The only real difference is the damage type (Slash vs pierce).

Personally, my pally base toon (14/4/2 after u19) is using thf with a falchion for dps, snb with Nightmare otherwise, but to each their own.

The math above illustrates how khopesh is probably a 30% increase in DPS over scimitar.... that's pretty much "must have" in my book, unless you opt to go for rapier(only because of balizarde) or S&B (which is a whole different build). Seriously, no other feat even approaches that kind of DPS increase, so what other feat could possibly be more valuable in it's place as the 7th best feat on your list?

EllisDee37
12-27-2013, 08:43 PM
The math above illustrates how khopesh is probably a 30% increase in DPS over scimitar.... that's pretty much "must have" in my book, unless you opt to go for rapier(only because of balizarde) or S&B (which is a whole different build). Seriously, no other feat even approaches that kind of DPS increase, so what other feat could possibly be more valuable in it's place as the 7th best feat on your list?Well, part of that math claimed that khopheshes get more from seeker than scimitars do, but both get the same from seeker. (Khopesh gets 4*3=12*seeker, scimitar gets 6*2=12*seeker.) I'm skeptical about a 30% increase.

I'm talking about leveling, not epic-only. If you want to build around a drow khopesh, that's valid, but there's no reason to spec for epic weapons until you can actually wield them. As an example, my paladin's next life will use falchions from 1 to 22 as he has his previous lives, and only when he finally hits 23 will he feat swap improved crit: slashing to bludgeon and start using sireth.

Planning to use sireth does not make qstaffs better than scimitars any more than planning to use a drow khopesh makes khopeshes better than scimitars. Khopeshes are, in fact, better than scimitars but in the context of this thread, drow khopeshes aren't particularly relevant.

ML12 elemental khopeshes of water are very relevant, however, and they wipe the floor with pretty much any scimitar or rapier equivalent.

EllisDee37
12-27-2013, 08:50 PM
I am wondering did they also make it so that Oversized TWF is a percent as opposed to a flat -4, like they revised TWF to be?They did not. Thanks to the to-hit formula changes from MotU, OTWF is now pointless.

Inoukchuk
12-28-2013, 04:37 AM
Well, part of that math claimed that khopheshes get more from seeker than scimitars do, but both get the same from seeker. (Khopesh gets 4*3=12*seeker, scimitar gets 6*2=12*seeker.) I'm skeptical about a 30% increase.

I'm talking about leveling, not epic-only. If you want to build around a drow khopesh, that's valid, but there's no reason to spec for epic weapons until you can actually wield them. As an example, my paladin's next life will use falchions from 1 to 22 as he has his previous lives, and only when he finally hits 23 will he feat swap improved crit: slashing to bludgeon and start using sireth.

Planning to use sireth does not make qstaffs better than scimitars any more than planning to use a drow khopesh makes khopeshes better than scimitars. Khopeshes are, in fact, better than scimitars but in the context of this thread, drow khopeshes aren't particularly relevant.

ML12 elemental khopeshes of water are very relevant, however, and they wipe the floor with pretty much any scimitar or rapier equivalent.

I see drow pesh as relevant because you build toward something. Sure, it could be less relevant if you plan to respec at higher levels, but most people don't. The fact the khopesh is better from 1-28 only reinforces that. There are no named scimitars that I'm aware of worth wielding at really any level by comparison. Rapier eventually gets Balizarde, which is the single best DPS and defense 1-handed weapon on the game, but has the downside that you can't swap out of it situationally without taking a massive DPS hit. So... I stand by 30% and more seeker as it relates to drow 'pesh vs any scimitar, and at lower levels it's still probably 10% at the minimum and the loss of water khopesh (which I agree mops the floor with all scimitars and rapiers below 21)