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Valicathion
12-09-2013, 03:14 PM
Celcia – The “Impossible” Dream

Build

First Life
32 Point Build
H/Elf 20 Fighter 8 Epic TN

This is a work in progress AC intimitank build. First of before getting flamed I know this build is not finished and needs more work but its an idea for making a first life EE viable tank. With the healing amp and incite from items and enhancements mean its fairly easy to heal and with the AC HP pool and PRR mean you don’t take huge amounts of damage as well as nice saves.

The character would obviously improve with tr, past life’s temp buffs like yugo pots, GS HP item, etc but not really necessary. The DPS isnt on par with a pure DPS toon ….its a tank :P holding agro hasn't been an issue and with being a half elf the twin intimidates are nice to have in emergency, also the cleave and G cleave are very useful for increasing damage output and damaging mobs in aoe to assist tanking.

The amount of toughness included in the build can be reduced but was in a HP arms race with another guildie :) .

STR 34 (Base 12, Tome 5, Enhancements 8, Gear 7 (Gloves), Ship Buffs 2) 38 on Fabricator proc.
DEX 30 (Base 14, Tome 5, Gear 7, ship buffs 2) 34 on Fabricator proc.
CON 70 (Base 18, Level Ups 7, Tome 5, Feats 1, Enhancements 11, Gear 14, Destiny 6,
Stalwart Stance 6, Ship Buffs 2) 74 on Fabricator proc.
INT 15 (base 9, Tome 5, Gear -1, ship buffs 2)
WIS 14 (base 8, Tome 5, Gear -1, ship buffs 2)
CHA 28 (base 13, Tome 5, Gear 8, ship buffs 2)

HP:2192 (vigor of battle stance)
AC:180
PRR:142
DR:15/Evil, 15/Pierce, 15/Lawful (EE Djinn), 1/-.
Dodge: 4% (can be improved)
Defense chance at level: 77%

Saves:

Fort: 65
Ref: 39
Will: 31

+5 to all in stand against the tide stance

Fort 158%, 183% in stand against the tide stance


1: Shield Mastery, Toughness, Dilettante :Paladin
2: Dodge
3: Power Attack
4: CON, Cleave
5:
6: Toughness, Great Cleave
7:
8: CON, Imp Shield Mastery
9: Toughness
10: Imp Crit Slash
11:
12: CON, Focus Slash, Toughness
13:
14: Weapon Special Slash
15: Toughness, Force of Personality
16: CON, Mobility
17:
18: Toughness, Weapon Prof Bastard sword
19:
20: CON, Combat Expertise
21: Toughness
22:
23:
24: CON, Epic Toughness
25:
26: Holy Strike
27: Great Con
28: CON, Toughness

Equipment:

Helm: White Dragon, (+3 ins con)EE socket 20 vit and sonic rez 35
Goggles: Drow Smoke Goggles,
Armour: Flawless White Dragon Plate (T1), socket 35 hp (can upgrade to more)
Bracer: Fabricators Bracers,
Ring: Ring Of The Buccaneer,(lvl 20 upgraded t3) socket deathblock
Boots: Spiked Boots, EE socket acid 35 and fire 35
Gloves: PDK Gloves,
Ring: +10 con 20 tumble ring
Belt: Dagger Tooth's Belt, EE socket fear immune and nat armour 7(can upgrade)
Cloak: Ghost-Waking Cloak EE
Trinket: Brawn's Spirit, epic socket ins dex 2
Neck: Jorgundal's Collar, EE socketed con 7(upgradeable) and imp dragon blood
(exc con 1)
Shield : Bastion EE
Sword : Nightmare full upgraded socketed Vampire slayer augment (when i get it :P)


Swap out gear :

Ring : Ring Of The Djinn, EE (socketed con on neck to reduce con loss on swap)
Swords: E chimeras Fang, GS trip poss, Twinblade, Charoush's Inferno,

Skills : (+5 stat tomes eaten at level 19 so on tr or lesser more skills points available for maybe umd)

Balance: 48 (base 11, Tome 3, Ability 10, epic skills 8, Gear 25,
ship buff 1)
Jump : 19 (base 6, Ability 12, ship buff 1) armour and shield seem to negate epic skills and good luck 2)
Intimidate 84 (base 23, Ability 9, Tome 3, feats 2,epic skills 8, gear 22, enhancements 3, Unyielding Sentinel 6, Hidden 7 (poss from stalwart), ship buff 1


Enhancements :

17 H/Elf:

Core
Core 1, CON, Elven Acc, STR, Elven Acc.

Imp Dill Pally 1, Imp Dill 1, Lesser Divine Health, Dill STR, Imp Dill 1.

63 Stalwart Defender:

all 6 cores

3 item defence, 3 durable defence, 3 stalwart defence mastery, 3 threatening countenance, 3 armour expertise, 3 stalwart shield mastery, 3 inciting defence, 1 resilient defence, 3 hardy defence, 3 shield expertise, 1 CON, 1 CON, 3 reinforced armour, 3 strong defence, 1 swift defence, 3 tenacious defender, 3 reinforced shield


Epic Dest

Capped out Unyielding Sentinel

4 CON, 3 shield prowess, 3 legendry shield mastery, 2 brace for impact, 3 block energy, 3 harden.

Twists
level 3: improved combat expertise
level 1: CON
level 1: CON

Many stats can be improved with different gear layouts and upgrading augments to the newer level 25+ ones

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b559/ChaseWolf/ScreenShot00001_zpsc7f6b73f.jpg (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/ChaseWolf/media/ScreenShot00001_zpsc7f6b73f.jpg.html)



Hope this helps :)

favour6
12-09-2013, 03:16 PM
*pulls up large comfy sofa, prepares copious amounts of tea coffee beer and popcorn, gets comfy and awaits the show*

FranOhmsford
12-09-2013, 03:29 PM
My Crafter - Celeia - regularly gets mistaken for Celcia.

Let me just say that it's great to finally see Celcia's build posted in all it's glory.


P.S. Nice Trolling Smurf

Inoukchuk
12-12-2013, 12:04 PM
Well, it's a nice tin can... but looking at the build I would bet she can't fight her way out of a wet paper bag (though I'm sure the bag will be very angry at you when you intimidate).

Valicathion
12-12-2013, 01:23 PM
Well, it's a nice tin can... but looking at the build I would bet she can't fight her way out of a wet paper bag (though I'm sure the bag will be very angry at you when you intimidate).

:) well when they put a EE wet paper bag Boss in raid it should be very worried :P

however it can tank quite well in EE and raids self healing needs work but with holding agro the only thing that seems to take it of her is the fury , add rush, multi shot, slaying agro which is quickly fixed with intim :P

but have run many EE and had no issue with holding agro and the same with most raids in the game to date :)

but yeh DAM THOSE PAPER BAGS :P

favour6
12-12-2013, 01:30 PM
:) well when they put a EE wet paper bag Boss in raid it should be very worried :P

however it can tank quite well in EE and raids self healing needs work but with holding agro the only thing that seems to take it of her is the fury , add rush, multi shot, slaying agro which is quickly fixed with intim :P

but have run many EE and had no issue with holding agro and the same with most raids in the game to date :)

but yeh DAM THOSE PAPER BAGS :P


Storm Reaver, and Truthful are ficking hard paper bags and yes they were VERY angry, they still couldn't take Celcia down.

FranOhmsford
12-12-2013, 01:36 PM
Talking of Supposedly not being able to DPS - I've run my Gimps with Celcia on numerous occasions in Elite BBs {yes Heroics} and E-Hards Pre 26-28.

And Cel's more than capable of DPSing when required.

Also Celcia may be only a first life character but I know Valicathion and he has more alts than I do {one of whom is a Completionist Cleric!} - I've had many arguments with Valicathion over DDO but one thing I do know - I've not run with anyone better able to do their job {no matter what the character} in this game!

JOTMON
12-12-2013, 01:49 PM
Go Dwarf and you can pickup the Con to Damage Enhancement, shame to have a con that much higher than your STR and not use that to your advantage.

Valicathion
12-12-2013, 01:50 PM
Go Dwarf and you can pickup the Con to Damage Enhancement, shame to have a con that much higher than your STR and not use that to your advantage.

ty for that may have to dorf her next life :)

FranOhmsford
12-12-2013, 03:01 PM
Go Dwarf and you can pickup the Con to Damage Enhancement, shame to have a con that much higher than your STR and not use that to your advantage.


ty for that may have to dorf her next life :)

Celcia's way older than that Dwarf Enhancement and I've heard you say on multiple occasions Valic that Cel's not getting TRd except for possible Pally and Barb past lives - So Dwarf Pally then?

Failedlegend
12-12-2013, 03:23 PM
How's this for a Dwarven Version (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/432617-The-Dwarven-Fortress-aka-Rogue-s-Best-friend?p=5197108#post5197108)...I originally had a bunch of the weapon spec and the like feats but honestly between Dwarf and Stalwart your already starving for AP without bringing Kensai into the mix.
Dwarven Fighter 20 (Axes,Picks or Hammers & Tower Shield)

Str 12 (Needs +1 by Lvl 12)
Dex 12
Con 20 (Lvl-ups here)
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 6

Skill: Intim, Jump, Balance, UMD

Feats
1 Dragonmark
1F Combat Expertise
2F SM
3 SF: Intim
4F ISB
6 Toughness
6F S-Deflect
8F ISM
9 Toughness
10F Power Attack
12 Toughness
12F Cleave
14F Great Cleave
15 Toughness
16F IC:Slashing,Piercing or Bludgeoning
18 Toughness
18F Quick Draw
20 Toughness
ED Unyielding Sentinel (http://ddodestiny.info/#d/unyielding_sentinel/s/d3,e,i3,j,k3,o,t,u3,y,bb)
21 Epic Toughness
24 Bulwark of Defense
26 Holy Strike
27 Blinding Speed
28 Elusive Target

Valicathion
12-12-2013, 04:27 PM
How's this for a Dwarven Version (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/432617-The-Dwarven-Fortress-aka-Rogue-s-Best-friend?p=5197108#post5197108)...I originally had a bunch of the weapon spec and the like feats but honestly between Dwarf and Stalwart your already starving for AP without bringing Kensai into the mix.
Dwarven Fighter 20 (Axes,Picks or Hammers & Tower Shield)

Str 12 (Needs +1 by Lvl 12)
Dex 12
Con 20 (Lvl-ups here)
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 6

Skill: Intim, Jump, Balance, UMD

Feats
1 Dragonmark
1F Combat Expertise
2F SM
3 SF: Intim
4F ISB
6 Toughness
6F S-Deflect
8F ISM
9 Toughness
10F Power Attack
12 Toughness
12F Cleave
14F Great Cleave
15 Toughness
16F IC:Slashing,Piercing or Bludgeoning
18 Toughness
18F Quick Draw
20 Toughness
ED Unyielding Sentinel (http://ddodestiny.info/#d/unyielding_sentinel/s/d3,e,i3,j,k3,o,t,u3,y,bb)
21 Epic Toughness
24 Bulwark of Defense
26 Holy Strike
27 Blinding Speed
28 Elusive Target



that looks fun :P may have to munch an intimi skill upgrade and look into dwarf race tree
thanks for the feedback :)

also trying to think of useful pastlives etc that may be useful.
not planning on com yet at least

Failedlegend
12-12-2013, 04:31 PM
that looks fun :P may have to munch an intimi skill upgrade and look into dwarf race tree
thanks for the feedback :)

I was working on it anyways and I noticed you were looking for a dwarf version so I figured it couldn't hurt to post it here:D

I really do wonder how high this can get HP wise...I'd say at least 2500 if not 3000 with the best equipment possible

Valicathion
12-12-2013, 04:37 PM
I was working on it anyways and I noticed you were looking for a dwarf version :D I really do wonder how high this can get HP wise...I'd say at least 2500 if not 3000 with the best equipment possible

well i know Celcia can top 4200+ in last stand :P
but with the extra con from dwarf and extra con from race tree , the hp increse from that + thestalwart bonus to that .......should be tasty :P

need to wait for these "mythical" hearts to magically "apeer" in my inventory then il have to start capping my ED's then ready to find out :P

Failedlegend
12-12-2013, 09:55 PM
well i know Celcia can top 4200+ in last stand :P
but with the extra con from dwarf and extra con from race tree , the hp increse from that + thestalwart bonus to that .......should be tasty :P

need to wait for these "mythical" hearts to magically "appear" in my inventory then il have to start capping my ED's then ready to find out :P

Hmmmm....I think we can break the Max HP record with this guy :) (It's currently 2737)

unbongwah
12-13-2013, 11:49 AM
Well, inspired by OP, I decided to toss up my take on a CON-based S&B tank (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/432678-Adventures-in-Theorycrafting-the-Kundarak-Wall-(dwarf-ftr-12-pal-6-monk-2)). Overall I think it's more well-rounded than Celcia, though it won't hit its bragging-rights HPs.

unbongwah
12-13-2013, 12:04 PM
2: Toughness
14: Toughness
16: CON, Toughness
Toughness isn't a ftr bonus feat.

FranOhmsford
12-13-2013, 03:31 PM
Toughness isn't a ftr bonus feat.

The Lvl 2 Toughness is simple enough - Just swap it with Cleave at Lvl 1

Weapon Spec at Lvl 12 can also be safely swapped with Toughness at 14

and I believe that Leaves Mobility at Lvl 9 to swap with the Lvl 16 Toughness.

Valic was on a lvl 28 Character and trying to work out when he took all those Toughness Feats - I'm not surprised he got the Lvls mixed up tbh.

unbongwah
12-13-2013, 03:36 PM
Just pointing out OP needs to clean up his feat order. :)

Which reminds me: ISM req's BAB 8, so can't be taken before lvl 8; it's listed @ lvl 6.

FranOhmsford
12-13-2013, 03:45 PM
Just pointing out OP needs to clean up his feat order. :)

Which reminds me: ISM req's BAB 8, so can't be taken before lvl 8; it's listed @ lvl 6.

Swap it with Dodge then.

Valicathion
12-13-2013, 03:46 PM
Well, inspired by OP, I decided to toss up my take on a CON-based S&B tank (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/432678-Adventures-in-Theorycrafting-the-Kundarak-Wall-(dwarf-ftr-12-pal-6-monk-2)). Overall I think it's more well-rounded than Celcia, though it won't hit its bragging-rights HPs.


Toughness isn't a ftr bonus feat.

ok a few things to go through first

1 this is a first life build and was ment as a first life thred to show that the hp ac etc were possible ....thanks for posting a 2nd life plus toon

2 was kinda thinking that posted on the Fighter thred may have perhaps leaned a bit towards not multiclassing into the standard 12/6/2 but i guess that dusnt apply

3 the feats listed are incorrect ty for the info ill adjust the feats as they can easily be switched and i was working from an existing character that already existed so couldnt remember the exact order

4 was hoping for constructive comments rather than my builds better but hey guess thats just me :P

unbongwah
12-14-2013, 12:07 AM
Chill, bro (or sis): by "cheating" I mean "it seems a little disingenuous to tout this as a first-life build when you had to buy a +5 Supreme tome to make it work." Unless OP ground out a full set of +5 tomes on a first-life, in which case, I wish I had the OP's luck (or persistence) with loot drops!

And if you thought that was me "attacking" the OP, you've clearly never seen me attack anyone. OP asked for opinions; I gave mine. I think this build makes too many sacrifices to DPS, saves, and self-sufficiency for max AC & HPs, which clearly hit a point of diminishing returns. While she has apparently overcome these drawbacks thru gear, EDs, and skill, it's still an uphill struggle. I posted an alternate build which sticks with the core concept (CON-based S&B tank) while addressing those shortcomings. I also pointed out errors in the OP's original build post; that isn't attacking, that's called "proof-reading."

OP is free to ignore my input, ofc; if the build gets the job done for her and no one complains, that's all that matters. I just think there are better ways of accomplishing her goals, is all.

I've been struggling to "redeem" S&B builds since U19 rolled out; I've got two right now based on my Dwarven Defender & Kundarak Wall builds (which in part are influenced by the mistakes I made). I'm still trying to work out what works best, so I appreciate hearing about other people's experience.

Lonnbeimnech
12-14-2013, 12:58 AM
I gave up on AC back in about U8, so serious question here for the OP.

When running EE, do you actually see 'miss' over your head more than 5% of the time? Not interested in the miss chance at level listed on character sheet, since CR 50-70+ mobs are not 'at level' for a level 28.

EllisDee37
12-14-2013, 01:02 AM
Accusing the OP of Cheating is a bit much and I'm sorry but will be reported.Ha!

I'll take "I don't understand words in context" for $500, Alex.

Vellrad
12-14-2013, 01:14 AM
Take bastard (or dorf axe) prof., THF line and you take agro from all nearby targets as you swing.

FranOhmsford
12-14-2013, 08:50 AM
Ha!

I'll take "I don't understand words in context" for $500, Alex.

He called the OP a "Cheat" for using +5 Tomes!

I know the OP and I know that he chooses to optimise his characters that he considers to be "Mains"

The only reason he's left Celcia in Life 1 for so long is because he chose to take his Healer to Completionist first!

He says that he won't make another Completionist but I know him well enough to know that that's complete ........!

It may not be Cel as She has no need for many of the Past Lives and he'd be better off in my opinion just grabbing 3 Paladin, 3 Barb, 2 more Fighter and Poss 3 Rogue Past Lives for her.

BUT One thing's for certain - The OP is the Person who brought me to DDO in the First Place and He and His "Main Characters" are going nowhere!

He's NOT making a Build to Prove that it can be done - I've nagged him for over a Year to post his Builds on a number of Characters and I think it's great that he's finally done so with Celcia!

He's showing that not only can it be done BUT it HAS BEEN DONE and for quite some time!

Mahalko128
12-14-2013, 10:21 AM
Hello Valicathion! I admire what you are attempting to do here with a level 20 human fighter and I have one myself that I'm working on as well. My AC numbers aren't nearly anywhere near where yours are though, so do you think it would be possible to get a break down, bit by bit, on how you achieved 180 AC? Would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

zachxr100
12-14-2013, 10:45 AM
(may need to addy ore the chimeras fang i think)
Yeah damn thing broke if I thought about hitting people with it too hard, and remember no power attack so the thought of hitting things wasn't very high either.

As for past lives tanks used to be easy to describe with the the three A's (Agrro, Amp, AC), As Ac has dropped in importance as much but ac is very much tied to PRR so is still somewhat relevant. Without having a high tactical choice or dc the fighter pl is sub optimal, barbs 10 hps is just not really worth it as it may save you but it likely won't, your best past lifes may be pally for 5% amp or if not lawful good a bonus to reflex saves (only vs traps sadly) from rogue pl's may help, also i noticed your will save is not to great so maybe bard pl's (symbol of stunning is actually a will save), an arty life could help a bit with the bonus to umd, I don't remember your skills but if your able to use umd it always helps (even if it is only +1). I am unfortuantely low on time but those are things i believe would help but it would be more dependent on what you run the majority of the time, and if your truly required to be tanking or doing a little off-dps the majority of the time.

Also i only used the chimeras fang when i needed to break dr, or when i was holding the aggro of the boss, because simply put it breaks way to effing easy, I didn't have a nightmare at the time of my tank, (nor did i even have b-sword prof, as chimeras gave it to me when i wielded it) and just used oath blade which has that bonus to saves as well, and had vorpal which honestly had a better chance of killing anything than my base abilities. Also maybe another idea is to look at celestia as it seems to generate more aggro than anything else other than a fully decked out chimeras, plus you get keen for piercing, yet you can use celestia on anything that requires dr whether it be alignment, metal, or even type, and actually does bastard sword damage still, just another thought.

Failedlegend
12-14-2013, 10:50 AM
Seriously guys stand down this build has a clear requirement it MUST be fighter 20 the OP doesn't want any multi-classing shenanigans she wants to make the best possible FIRST life single classed fighter as possible so if you have nay advice regarding that feel free to suggest it...if you don't and wish to make your own thread about your build feel free but don't insult and berate the OP and her contributors.

Rogann
12-14-2013, 05:24 PM
First of before getting flamed I know this build is not finished and needs more work but its an idea for making a first life EE viable tank.


The issue with "first life EE viable tank" is that there's no need for a tank.

zachxr100
12-14-2013, 05:48 PM
Seriously guys stand down this build has a clear requirement it MUST be fighter 20 the OP doesn't want any multi-classing shenanigans she wants to make the best possible FIRST life single classed fighter as possible so if you have nay advice regarding that feel free to suggest it...if you don't and wish to make your own thread about your build feel free but don't insult and berate the OP and her contributors.

I didn't see anything in the OP that says saying it has to be pure fighter, although I agree that the OP shouldn't be berated or insulted, just pointing out the OP says a viable first life tank build, doesn't say any particular way the OP wants to do it, the current build she uses a pure fighter, and its first life, although the OP also asked about possible past lives to help, suggesting possible improvements or opinions on builds/ gear and an interest to bring it from first to a second and maybe further lives. Now unless I'm just completely blind, which is possible I am rather tired at the moment, the requirement of being a pure 20 fighter is not in there. Sorry to attack you a bit, but thought the misconception should be cleared. Thanks for defending the OP's decisions, despite the continued negativity of the forums its nice to see others standing up for one another.

FranOhmsford
12-14-2013, 07:44 PM
I didn't see anything in the OP that says saying it has to be pure fighter, although I agree that the OP shouldn't be berated or insulted, just pointing out the OP says a viable first life tank build, doesn't say any particular way the OP wants to do it, the current build she uses a pure fighter, and its first life, although the OP also asked about possible past lives to help, suggesting possible improvements or opinions on builds/ gear and an interest to bring it from first to a second and maybe further lives. Now unless I'm just completely blind, which is possible I am rather tired at the moment, the requirement of being a pure 20 fighter is not in there. Sorry to attack you a bit, but thought the misconception should be cleared. Thanks for defending the OP's decisions, despite the continued negativity of the forums its nice to see others standing up for one another.

The OP has just TRd into a 18/2 Fighter/Pally Build - Currently Lvl 6 or 4/2.

Valicathion
12-14-2013, 08:01 PM
The issue with "first life EE viable tank" is that there's no need for a tank.

yet again .....thank you for being so helpful .... but yet again rather than saying anything helpful just keep coming in with the 100% useless comments. keep going im sure everyone must listen to you eventually ....right ..????
if your not going to be helpful pls feel free to troll somewhere else everyone else is helping here

thank you have a great day :).

Rogann
12-15-2013, 12:39 AM
yet again .....thank you for being so helpful .... but yet again rather than saying anything helpful just keep coming in with the 100% useless comments.

Huh? That was my first time commenting on this thread.


keep going im sure everyone must listen to you eventually ....right ..????

Its already well known that 2000 hp intimi tanks aren't needed in the current endgame.


if your not going to be helpful pls feel free to troll somewhere else everyone else is helping here

Sure I'll point out some more flaws.

1. No need for intimi tanks in the current endgame.

2. No self healing

3. No dps

EllisDee37
12-15-2013, 04:29 AM
Sure I'll point out some more flaws.

1. No need for intimi tanks in the current endgame.

2. No self healing

3. No dpsBut other than that, how'd you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?

favour6
12-15-2013, 07:00 AM
having been in a few FOT runs where the "tanks" couldn't hold agro on dps alone and these were "tanks" that had done FOT many many times with no trouble only for my gimped rougue/arti to steal agro. there was one time when i would have killed for a decent intimitank as i managed to some how managed to get both bosses agro, on that occasion a toon that depends on DPS alone for agro couldn't take agro off me until i died even when i stopped running and turtled in the corner.

Valicathion
12-15-2013, 07:37 AM
Huh? That was my first time commenting on this thread.



Its already well known that 2000 hp intimi tanks aren't needed in the current endgame.



Sure I'll point out some more flaws.

1. No need for intimi tanks in the current endgame.

2. No self healing

3. No dps



ok this isn't your first post the last one got removed with you saying it was a sponge and 100% useless ..... but i guess you don't remember that ..... pls just go away to somewhere else and be unhelpful there everyone else here is helping
thanks ...

unbongwah
12-15-2013, 03:33 PM
Seriously guys stand down this build has a clear requirement it MUST be fighter 20 the OP doesn't want any multi-classing shenanigans she wants to make the best possible FIRST life single classed fighter as possible so if you have nay advice regarding that feel free to suggest it...
Bearing in mind I still don't think pure ftr is the best way to go (and I just hit 20 on my pure ftr), I offer a counter-build:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.03
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 28 True Neutral Dwarf Female
(20 Fighter \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 664
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 25
Reflex: 7
Will: 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28)
Strength 16 23
Dexterity 11 13
Constitution 18 31
Intelligence 11 13
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 12 13

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+5 Tome of Strength used at level 19

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Warding
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: CON
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Great Cleave


Level 5 (Fighter)


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality


Level 7 (Fighter)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: CON
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Shield Mastery


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: CON
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Bash
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Mastery


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: CON
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Mobility
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Kundarak Dragonmark Focus (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Kundarak Dragonmark Focus (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Axe Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Armor Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Armor Mastery (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Armor Mastery (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Lesser Dragonmark of Warding (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Child of the Mountain (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Child of the Mountain (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Child of the Mountain (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Axe Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Greater Dragonmark of Warding (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Runes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Runes (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Runes (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Stand Like Stone (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Stand Like Stone (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Stand Like Stone (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Axe Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarf Fortress (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarf Fortress (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarf Fortress (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Axe Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Throw Your Weight Around (Axes) (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Overbalance (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stand Fast (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Defensive Sweep (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Last Stand (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Defensive Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Defensive Mastery (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Defensive Mastery (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Threatening Countenance (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Threatening Countenance (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Threatening Countenance (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Shield Striking (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Shield Striking (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Shield Striking (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Resilient Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Resilient Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Resilient Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Inciting Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Inciting Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Inciting Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Hardy Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Hardy Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Hardy Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Swift Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Block and Cut (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Block and Cut (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Block and Cut (Rank 3)


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Toughness


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Blinding Speed


Level 28 (Epic)
Ability Raise: CON
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Elusive Target


Pros:

higher melee DPS: racial axe bonuses, TYWA (uses CON instead of STR for axe dmg), THF chain, Overwhelming Crit, Dwarven Fortress (up to +7% S&B DPS)
DM of Warding, mostly for Radiant Forcefield (-25% to all incoming dmg)
+5 saves vs spells (Dwarven Runes)
Child of the Mountain (CotM) is +4% HPs +3 Fort saves
Stand Like Stone is +30 Balance, PRR, and energy resist and will stack with gear & SD bonuses, AFAIK; it's also on a separate timer from class boosts
I didn't need a +5 Supreme tome to make it work :p


Cons:

No racial heal amp or Dmg Boost (tho I don't see either on Celcia)
Spent so much in dwarf tree didn't have anything left for Kensei (def. pick up Haste Boost from LD).
Dwarven Fortress only works in full plate; if you switch to half-plate or mithral full plate, you lose bonus dmg. This means a lower MDB and a lower Dodge; I cranked it to 11 (base MDB 1 + 2 Mobility + 2 Gtr Nimbleness + 3 SD Defensive Mastery + 3 dwarf armor mastery), but that costs 9 APs.
Started less-than-max CON so I could bump up CHA instead (higher Intim + Will saves via FoP); and didn't put all lvl-ups into CON so I could get Overwhelming Crit. I also only took 2 Toughness feats, instead of 8; so even with dwarf CON & HP bonuses, I'm probably ~185 HPs behind Celcia in stance (not counting CotM).
CotM reduces Reflex saves (which are already lower than I would like) and costs 2 APs per tier; but it's a pre-req for Dwarf Fortress.


For the first several levels, I would use greataxes; S&B DPS doesn't become semi-passable until you have Dwarf Fortress + Block & Cut @ lvl 12+, hence why I backloaded the shield feats.

Xianio
12-15-2013, 11:13 PM
For the first several levels, I would use greataxes; S&B DPS doesn't become semi-passable until you have Dwarf Fortress + Block & Cut @ lvl 12+, hence why I backloaded the shield feats.

If you rush shield striking and shield bash you'll do more dps (provided you aren't bouncing around) with a shield + you'll have mid 60's miss chance. The rest of the feats aren't worth it until later but for dps you'll out do the great axe with a tower shield+bashing suffix.

edit: sorry, I was wrong. It's approx. 1 points less to the same depending on the shield suffix, amount of deadly and enchantment you have access to.

unbongwah
12-16-2013, 10:07 AM
If you rush shield striking and shield bash you'll do more dps (provided you aren't bouncing around) with a shield + you'll have mid 60's miss chance. The rest of the feats aren't worth it until later but for dps you'll out do the great axe with a tower shield+bashing suffix.
No, you won't. Even +8% doublestrike from ISM and a 55%(?) shield bash proc chance aren't enough to make up for all the advantages of 2H weapons: namely higher base dmg (d10 vs d12 is only +1 dmg on avg, but don't forget that stacks up w/+[W] modifiers), 1.5x dmg from STR (or CON) bonus, an extra +5 dmg per hit from Power Atk, etc. Plus the advantages of S&B (namely higher doublestrike & shield bash) don't apply to Cleaves; and if you're not spamming your Cleaves every time you fight more than one adjacent target, you're losing DPS. On my Dwarven Defender, even with full shield feats & a decent shield, I am still doing more DPS with a tier-one Cannith greataxe (http://ddowiki.com/page/Elemental_Greataxe_of_Fire).

If you're doing more S&B DPS than 2H DPS, it means you gimped your build somehow (deliberately or otherwise).

pappo
12-16-2013, 12:54 PM
How's this for a Dwarven Version (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/432617-The-Dwarven-Fortress-aka-Rogue-s-Best-friend?p=5197108#post5197108)...I originally had a bunch of the weapon spec and the like feats but honestly between Dwarf and Stalwart your already starving for AP without bringing Kensai into the mix.
Dwarven Fighter 20 (Axes,Picks or Hammers & Tower Shield)

Feats
1 Dragonmark
1F Combat Expertise

Which Dragonmark are you taking ? ......... oops, never mind, I forgot Dwarves only get Warding

Xianio
12-16-2013, 06:36 PM
No, you won't. Even +8% doublestrike from ISM and a 55%(?) shield bash proc chance aren't enough to make up for all the advantages of 2H weapons:

You won't have 55% until way later in the game. However, you're kind of miss representing the dps shield provides. Ignoring the doublestrike (as I don't know how "soon" we're talking about here. If you take a 1d10 tower shield add 2d4 bash, add +3 (I don't know the level we're talking about again) from enhancement add +5 from power attack add +X from deadly, add a full strength bonus you end up with about the same dps with a small loss on cleaves (as every "weapon dice" only adds +1 damage, so +3 for a great cleave? woo). This isn't including the +8% from doublestrike of course.

That said, you do see a very notable loss if you're rarely standing still - however in heroics this is rarely an issue when you're using a shield.

It's definitely harder to TELL you're doing more dps because it comes in a flurry of smaller numbers but that's okay. The totals end up being extremely close. :)

PS: Two handed Weapons take off later on. Once you start getting synergy with crits, power attack bonuses and higher and higher strength totals S&B cannot possibly keep up. When you're in lower to mid level heroics S&B is pretty on par.

unbongwah
12-17-2013, 08:06 AM
First off, I don't think shield bashes get full STR bonus; I think it's 0.5x STR like offhand procs from TWF. Second, if you can come up with a S&B build which does more DPS than swinging a Carnifex (http://ddowiki.com/page/Carnifex) from lvls 4 thru 12-ish - and I'm talking in-game, not on a spreadsheet - you deserve some sort of special build-fu prize. :) HINT: if you're neglecting crit dmg, you're doing it wrong.

Xianio
12-17-2013, 09:33 AM
First off, I don't think shield bashes get full STR bonus; I think it's 0.5x STR like offhand procs from TWF. Second, if you can come up with a S&B build which does more DPS than swinging a Carnifex (http://ddowiki.com/page/Carnifex) from lvls 4 thru 12-ish - and I'm talking in-game, not on a spreadsheet - you deserve some sort of special build-fu prize. :) HINT: if you're neglecting crit dmg, you're doing it wrong.

So, the "objective" way to do this is to count up every swing against what? A kobold, jelly or an Ogre? How many do I have to kill? Like 8-10 with each gear setup? Lol, dude your arbitrary rules are nonsense. Just because you're stuck in U18 before shield bashing was fixed doesn't mean that there hasn't been significant changes.

Yes, shields apply full strength, you're welcome to test this yourself as you clearly won't take my word for it.
Also, if you want to worry about crits then lets also worry about doublestrike. So, shield feats give me 8% doublestrike and lets pretend my D. Axe also gives 2% doublestrike for the sake of easy math.

Now, we're also making the assumption here that the user has access to this named weapon from a purchased pack. That's fine, but lets not pretend that you're not gaming the system a little.

Either way, if we're picking 9ish as our number then lets go with +2 3d4 tower shield of bashing with +3% bash. At level 9 it's also pretty reasonable to expect either 3-8 or 2-12 (I forget) elemental damage on weapons and you'll have imp. crit. But we'll have to take into account the fact that you said 4 which of course sways my numbers as I'm not willing to spend an hour sifting through low level named items just to maximize a few points of damage.

The last point I'm going to mention is that with 10% doublestrike you're effectively giving yourself double your crit chance (if it's a sword) except that it's a crit chance that can also crit. That gives all kinds of funny dps weirdness but lets not discount it.
------------

Obviously I could keep going, however based on your response I think there's no point. There really two types of people; those who go by "gut" and those who ignore their gut and go by analytical information. You're clearly a "gut" guy. (which isn't a bad thing!)

Yes, it will always feel like a two-handed weapon is doing more damage because you can see it, feel it and 150 feels a LOT better than 30-30-60-30. I could prove it with math, with a combat dummy with exhaustive tests but the fact of the matter is, I can never make you "feel" like you're doing the same damage.

It will always feel weaker and I think that's the real take away. This is a game after all and "if it feels good do it, even if you shouldn't. Don't let people mess you around." :)

unbongwah
12-17-2013, 10:03 AM
Now, we're also making the assumption here that the user has access to this named weapon from a purchased pack. That's fine, but lets not pretend that you're not gaming the system a little.
Gear is a pretty important part of any DPS discussion, though. If you're going to eliminate the single most popular low-lvl weapon from one of the most popular low-lvl P2P packs from consideration, then of course we're going to come to different conclusions!

Obviously I could keep going, however based on your response I think there's no point. There really two types of people; those who go by "gut" and those who ignore their gut and go by analytical information. You're clearly a "gut" guy.
Uhh, no, I'm a "goes off what in-game experience teaches me" guy, not a "runs up a bunch of numbers on a calculator which sound impressive" guy. And considering I just got my S&B pure ftr from lvl 4 to 20 with all shield feats, max shield bashing, high STR, Power Atk, ~10% base doublestrike, Block & Cut, etc. and still did more DPS with a nice greataxe more often than not the entire time, I like to think I do, in fact, have some idea what the heck I'm talking about.

I could prove it with math, with a combat dummy with exhaustive tests but the fact of the matter is, I can never make you "feel" like you're doing the same damage.
Actually, the combat dummy is a poor test, because it's got 100% fortification; but apart from undead, oozes, and the occasional golem, pretty much everything you fight for the first 12 lvls or so has little or no fort, and thus is eminently crittable. Furthermore, outside of boss fights, you're usually fighting multiple targets (and even most boss fights have adds to deal with); which means your AoE DPS is as or more important than single-target DPS.

Which is my point: what sounds good in theory or under certain test conditions is not indicative of what your overall in-game experience will be like.

Valicathion
12-17-2013, 11:30 AM
Hello Valicathion! I admire what you are attempting to do here with a level 20 human fighter and I have one myself that I'm working on as well. My AC numbers aren't nearly anywhere near where yours are though, so do you think it would be possible to get a break down, bit by bit, on how you achieved 180 AC? Would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

hi sorry for the late reply. you'll have to forgive me as ive tr'd so don't have the full breakdown of the AC at hand but with the gear ive listed and the enhancements listed when i get back up to 28 ill re list the breakdown. 180 can still be improved :P ive now taken to using the twist from the draconic ED (+6 fort, +3 nat armour and never fail a fort save on a 1) also finishing of the Flawless White Dragon Plate would do the same as no doubt a number of other item changes or augment upgrades

yet again sorry it took so long to post a reply.

Xianio
12-17-2013, 01:40 PM
Gear is a pretty important part of any DPS discussion, though. If you're going to eliminate the single most popular low-lvl weapon from one of the most popular low-lvl P2P packs from consideration, then of course we're going to come to different conclusions!
Well dur, but acting as those I'm supposed to guess what's "popular" simply because you have it isn't exactly playing fair. I'm not asking for your gear layout but I am acknowledging the fact that I don't know what you're using. Some standards is all I'm working with here and acknowledging the requirements needed to reach them.

I'm also acknowledging my own lack of interest in doing the research, so there's that too.



Uhh, no, I'm a "goes off what in-game experience teaches me" guy, not a "runs up a bunch of numbers on a calculator which sound impressive" guy.


Yes, I get that you're using "in-game experience" or, "gut" as I highly doubt you're timing/counting the swings it takes to reach the tasty center of an Ogre pop. Gut isn't guessing, it's feelings based of experience. There's a lot of benefits of working this way, but in edge cases (like I"m suggesting) gut tends to have a bias towards visceral oomph.

It's not impressive to do basic math. A grade 10 high school student has harder math problems then what I'm solving for. I apologize if I've insulted you, as you seem to be upset.

PS: This isn't "a guy with a calculator." It's a guy with a calculator and a practical test from "game experience" supporting that test. *more below*



And considering I just got my S&B pure ftr from lvl 4 to 20 with all shield feats, max shield bashing, high STR, Power Atk, ~10% base doublestrike, Block & Cut, etc. and still did more DPS with a nice greataxe more often than not the entire time, I like to think I do, in fact, have some idea what the heck I'm talking about.


For the purposes of your example, you and I have the same degree of experience. I have a level 13, strength focused pure Fighter with full S&B feats and put a greatsword through some tests, as, obviously, I'm a results-based person. Post level 13 I wouldn't argue with you that Two handed gets WAY stronger (strength of gear causing it to happen sooner, obviously) but prior to that I'm claiming they're extremely close.

Frankly, I still believe exactly what I said before; it will ALWAYS feel like Two-handed is doing more damage because the rewards are more obvious. That doesn't change the fact that if you stop-watched the time it takes for Ogres to "go boom" you'll be clicking in at a swings difference.

Edit: Also, is that build an accurate representation of how you ran through the game? If so, wouldn't your experience not actually be representative given the placement of the shield feats?

PS:
Please keep in mind unbongwah, you just told me that shield only gets 0.5 strength and approximately a month ago you told me that shield bashing was bugged and didn't work (something that hadn't been true since at least the enhancement pass). I'm not saying that you don't know your stuff, but I am saying that it seems to me that you're not accurately representing the value of a shield since U19. Which, isn't surprising given that it's the first time one has been a useful weapon since DDO's inception.


AoE DPS is as or more important than single-target DPS.

Derp missed this. I agree, that's certainly true. That said, both weapon types have AoE damage (cleaves and/or two weapon fighting feats) and at 20-30% damage it'll still advantage the great weapon slightly.

pappo
12-28-2013, 12:38 PM
:) well when they put a EE wet paper bag Boss in raid it should be very worried :P

however it can tank quite well in EE and raids self healing needs work but with holding agro the only thing that seems to take it of her is the fury , add rush, multi shot, slaying agro which is quickly fixed with intim :P

What weapon are you using ? Are you S&B ?
In the picture it looks like you are S&B but the picture seems to show some two handed (greatswords) in you hot bars also.

EllisDee37
12-28-2013, 02:17 PM
Well dur, but acting as those I'm supposed to guess what's "popular" simply because you have it isn't exactly playing fair.Carnifex is widely known to be "the standard" in dps leveling weapons.

Khalesh
01-16-2014, 01:26 PM
How do you get +11 CON from Enhancements?

In your CON breakdown the +6 from Stance is separate as is the ED CON (and twisted)

Valicathion
01-16-2014, 01:35 PM
How do you get +11 CON from Enhancements?

In your CON breakdown the +6 from Stance is separate as is the ED CON (and twisted)

the stalwart cores grant +2 con past core 3 i think just not mentioned in the core discription

SealedInSong
04-26-2014, 09:35 PM
Ring: +10 con 20 tumble ring

Is this for tumbling faster when you twist in Unearthly Reactions?

Just curious.

Blackheartox
04-27-2014, 07:56 AM
Hmm question, what do you bring to a party full of monkchers/fury centerd builds, shiradis as a con based tank without con to damage?

In current selfhealing meta endgame, without a sp item even with reworked sentinel, best tanks i saw /if they are of use but dunno/ had around 1400 hp tops to be effective at holding aggro.
Urthor from ordo is a realy nice example or kratebane from hella.
Otherwise when i see something above 1500 hp its guarantedd not to be able to hold aggro, how did you do that on your build?
Just wondering since those folks are completionists, play the game as tanks for years /since the days when it was useful/ and they still tell me its extremely hard to hold aggro from a proper monkchery furyshot.

Or is this thread a troll thread and i failed every possible will save to realize that?

FranOhmsford
04-27-2014, 11:34 AM
Hmm question, what do you bring to a party full of monkchers/fury centerd builds, shiradis as a con based tank without con to damage?

In current selfhealing meta endgame, without a sp item even with reworked sentinel, best tanks i saw /if they are of use but dunno/ had around 1400 hp tops to be effective at holding aggro.
Urthor from ordo is a realy nice example or kratebane from hella.
Otherwise when i see something above 1500 hp its guarantedd not to be able to hold aggro, how did you do that on your build?
Just wondering since those folks are completionists, play the game as tanks for years /since the days when it was useful/ and they still tell me its extremely hard to hold aggro from a proper monkchery furyshot.

Or is this thread a troll thread and i failed every possible will save to realize that?

This thread has been Necroed Over.

Valic quit DDO months ago.

favour6
04-27-2014, 11:38 AM
This thread has been Necroed Over.

Valic quit DDO months ago.

holy thread necrology batman!

Blackheartox
04-27-2014, 11:55 AM
Ah lol yea figured smthn was wrong lol, damn you my inability to read last 4 posts