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Backley
12-09-2013, 08:21 AM
https://www.ddo.com/en/update-20-patch-1-release-notes:

Spell Song Vigor now only affects a single target (as per its description)

Then give us back Spell Song Mana Burst! I accepted Mana Burst being removed because Vigor was changed to AOE.

And combine Wand & Scroll Mastery with Wand & Scroll DC like you said you would!

Bards need love not nerfs.

Scrag
12-09-2013, 08:39 AM
https://www.ddo.com/en/update-20-patch-1-release-notes:


Then give us back Spell Song Mana Burst! I accepted Mana Burst being removed because Vigor was changed to AOE.

And combine Wand & Scroll Mastery with Wand & Scroll DC like you said you would!

Bards need love not nerfs.

Yes. This is a horrid change, and while bards are great general classes, this was something that helped them be a little better than average...

AzB
12-09-2013, 09:13 AM
It just means more time singing songs, which is something we don't need.

OTOH, song casting durations are reported to be shorter and the song of heroism now affects more than one target, so it's kind a of a wash.

Ah, the life of a bard in DDO. One step forward, one step back. I can understand it though... the balance of power needs to be maintained and great care must be made to be certain bards don't ever overpower monks.

LOOON375
12-09-2013, 09:21 AM
How is it a nerf when that's the way it's supposed to be, and it's how it used to be?

It wasn't WAI.

ric0
12-09-2013, 09:44 AM
NVM, brain fart.......

5chinoble
12-09-2013, 09:46 AM
1: First it was the song of capering, the duration for the song to land is so long now you're better off casting Ottos Irresistible twice instead, making it pointless

Fix: put it back the way it was you could actually use it to on beholders really well, now by the time the songs finished your about -9 neg levels, and disintrigrated

2: What was the reasoning that you put the SP song back to a single target ?

Fix: can we find the Dev that nerfed the bard and give him/her a big hug and say... its ok the world isnt all bad, you can now undo your torture of the bard class


but really... bards are not FOTM, bards arent the most popular class, if anything they're probably at the lower end of classes that are played, so why nerf them.. if anything you could undo these changes and they at least helped bards

nikos1313
12-09-2013, 09:51 AM
i dont even play my bard for long time now, but i totally agree with the title... Devs.. seriously?

Njohrd
12-09-2013, 09:51 AM
/signed

Atremus
12-09-2013, 09:52 AM
The change to Spell Vigor is annoying but it's not like people will notice in a party full of Sharadi casters and Monks.

5chinoble
12-09-2013, 09:57 AM
The change to Spell Vigor is annoying but it's not like people will notice in a party full of Sharadi casters and Monks.

and the devs decided to nerf the bard............


if anything its the shiradi casters and monks that need to be reigned in a little, not the poor little bards

5chinoble
12-09-2013, 10:06 AM
I really dont get it sometimes

There are combinations that really need to be looking into, abilities that are just silly, classes that every tom, **** and harry is making... yet its the bard that gets the nerf bat...

I mean really

AzB
12-09-2013, 10:36 AM
I was just on Cannith and saw an lfm for a lvl 27 pure bard soloing one of the new quests. The comments said "at boss, need help not enough dps to kill". And he was on casual. Sounds like a pretty freaking epic class there.

This is why bards need to be nerfed. They are waaaaaaaaaay too overpowered. ;)

And really, every class should be capable of soloing quests on casual. Either remove the stupid "red name blanket immunity" mechanic, or give the bard some real tools for dps. Gear, a better Warchanter pre, something.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
12-09-2013, 10:49 AM
/signed

Perhaps our bard songs were cutting into profits too deeply???

As for crowd control, the bard has long been shafted by the devs at Turbine. If gnome is truly coming... I want to see illusion spells FINALLY make their way into the game for bards. Its time to give bards a rework to put crowd control back in the class... and make it better than it was before.

Hendrik
12-09-2013, 10:58 AM
/signed

Perhaps our bard songs were cutting into profits too deeply???

As for crowd control, the bard has long been shafted by the devs at Turbine. If gnome is truly coming... I want to see illusion spells FINALLY make their way into the game for bards. Its time to give bards a rework to put crowd control back in the class... and make it better than it was before.

I disagree.

I do not know of any other class that can get 130+DC to crowd control abilities.

Not yet checked myself, but I hope that the Epic Bard blade, name escapes me atm, will allow for the mana song to effect multi allies at once like it does for other songs.

DDOisFree
12-09-2013, 11:05 AM
It wasn't a Nerf, it was a fix because it previously wasn't WAI.

kned225
12-09-2013, 11:09 AM
Sure they nerfed bards, but its not all bad. They managed to fix Master of Imbuement for those poor AAs

supott
12-09-2013, 11:12 AM
did they make song of capering cast time shorter?

ps. they didnt fix song of the dead yet and it isn't even on known bugs, but THESE are:


When wielding the +1 Starter Scimitar, the flaming effect does not disappear (like the weapon) when emotes are used.

When wearing the White Dragonscale Robe, dark-skinned female drow necks turn white.

Some armors cause a lighter skin color on a character's neck than intended.

Chai
12-09-2013, 11:20 AM
I disagree.

I do not know of any other class that can get 130+DC to crowd control abilities.

Not yet checked myself, but I hope that the Epic Bard blade, name escapes me atm, will allow for the mana song to effect multi allies at once like it does for other songs.

The DC doesnt determine the validity of good CC. Bards is the only one used at endgame where no one can even look at a mob the wrong way without breaking CC. Have to run with players who you know will cooperate with fascinate. None of the other CC types require group management.

For spell CC bards need to get mass versions of their hold spells just like arcane does. Spell CC is something that needs to be built for by flocusing on DC and spell pen.

marinerfan
12-09-2013, 11:30 AM
/signed

Hendrik
12-09-2013, 11:33 AM
The DC doesnt determine the validity of good CC. Bards is the only one used at endgame where no one can even look at a mob the wrong way without breaking CC. Have to run with players who you know will cooperate with fascinate. None of the other CC types require group management.

For spell CC bards need to get mass versions of their hold spells just like arcane does. Spell CC is something that needs to be built for by flocusing on DC and spell pen.

Really? DC does NOT determine the validity of good CC? You do understand to have valid CC, of any type, you must have a good DC in the first place.

Since you appear to be clueless about Bards, there is more the just Fascinate available to them - there is a Song the has a chance to break on damage and also adds a lingering debuff.

Again, really? No other type of CC require group management? Maybe if you only play with yourself.

Maybe you should get out and play with a Bard that knows what they are doing, or better yet, make on yourself so you will know what your talking about.

Your post only contains one truth, for a Bard to shine they need to cooperation of every party member and cooperation of any kind is hard to find these days for anyone of any class.

Kobold_Ranger_Black
12-09-2013, 11:43 AM
Sustaining song is now bugged as well, only working single target

Impaqt
12-09-2013, 11:45 AM
Another Update where my bard stays parked at level 16... Sweet.. I get to finish my Rogue at least.

Rendron
12-09-2013, 11:50 AM
I disagree.

I do not know of any other class that can get 130+DC to crowd control abilities.

Not yet checked myself, but I hope that the Epic Bard blade, name escapes me atm, will allow for the mana song to effect multi allies at once like it does for other songs.

have you ever played a pure bard? maybe he got the cc on high lvl but he is squishy in getting mobs hp down if he is no splash - if he is a splah he sucks at cc. so mostly bards are only good for group buffing and a bit of spot healing.

nerfing the spell vigor song to single target make it much more hader to buff up people in raids and help in healing the group. how it was befor was very good

/signed

blackdae
12-09-2013, 12:01 PM
I'm personally doing my bard life taking enhancements from AA, tempest and kensei.. :/
The pass, as for me, totally ruined the class..

nichefish
12-09-2013, 12:02 PM
Not yet checked myself, but I hope that the Epic Bard blade, name escapes me atm, will allow for the mana song to effect multi allies at once like it does for other songs.

elyd edge doesnt effect spell song vigor or any enhancement based songs at all.

Chai
12-09-2013, 12:12 PM
dp

Chai
12-09-2013, 12:13 PM
Really? DC does NOT determine the validity of good CC? You do understand to have valid CC, of any type, you must have a good DC in the first place.

Since you appear to be clueless about Bards, there is more the just Fascinate available to them - there is a Song the has a chance to break on damage and also adds a lingering debuff.

Ive played bards since day one. My knowledge of the class significantly outweighs yours, as indicated by you trying to harp that 130 DC somehow means anything. ~50 of that DC is overkill currently. It does not change the result of fascinate. The validity of fascinate has nothing to do with being able to get to 130 DC.

You also have no answer for the fact that I stated which makes that CC not as good as other CC - you completely glossed over the fact that the mobs cannot be damaged at all which breaks the CC. It wouldnt matter if the DC was hyperbolic in the extreme, as people will simply break the fascinates with AOE.


Again, really? No other type of CC require group management? Maybe if you only play with yourself.

Again you have no answer for this. Name some if you can answer it. Name other viable CC in EE that requires the group to not damage the mobs or they will no longer be CC.


Maybe you should get out and play with a Bard that knows what they are doing, or better yet, make on yourself so you will know what your talking about.

Maybe you should take your own advice. My knowledge of the class is far ahead of yours, as ive played it since the beginning. You quoted me yet have no answer for anything I posted, and are glossing over it all simply to toss out ad hominem insults. I will gladly debate you on this if you answer what Ive posted.


Your post only contains one truth, for a Bard to shine they need to cooperation of every party member and cooperation of any kind is hard to find these days for anyone of any class.

It contains more than that. Please, name viable CC in EE that other party members cant use AOE or it will cancel the CC. Dont worry, Ill wait.

Visual_Nobu
12-09-2013, 12:13 PM
i love bards... but not on DDO, they are all but not usefull at all. and now that they nerfed again are even more badly. A pure bard CC and heal should be able to buff the party fast in the raids or in EE quest. at the moment is a challenge to do that. before u need 1 song to make some spell point coming back overtime, now u need to buff with that song every single target and its a waste of time because u can ask ur selfe this in a raid: "i buff every caster and healer in the party with spellsong vigor wasting prolly 3 minutes, or help with CC heals and use scroll?" simple answer... Devs should think why a class is so unplayed, and try to get it better, and its not only because is an hard class to build and play... Even many enhanc. of the WC are not really usefull. So why nerf a class like this when is already not easy to play on SS CC version and not so played at all in general?


PS: level cap up to 30 im sure that now we can prolly toss in the gargabe the DC of the bard on that level... and the bard too maybe...

Bolo_Grubb
12-09-2013, 12:23 PM
Because of the way Song of Capering was changed, I TR'd my Bard to be a Arti/Rogue crossbow user. As a Bard he was just not any fun to play. Now I am even happier he is no longer a bard.

Teh_Troll
12-09-2013, 12:30 PM
ZOMG! We have a game with no class balance at all, mostly because of the insanely broken abilities of Pay2win monks, and Turbine decides to NERF BARDS!!!!!

Oh man . . . please tell me there's a hidden paladin nerf in here as well.

What an awesomely trollerific monday.

nichefish
12-09-2013, 12:37 PM
fascinate is great cc for soloing, but while playing in (decent) group it have generally no use, using it even slowers the quest progression. its most common use is for emergency handling. in most party-wiping situation i know i'll survive and could raise the party safely.. but that's all.

perhaps way-shortened enthrallment casting time may bring bards a little changes...

Teh_Troll
12-09-2013, 12:38 PM
Oh the poetic justice keeps rolling in . . . look what monks got fixed, piling on even more Pay2win goodness . . .


Other Changes

Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm now again properly charge Everything is Nothing.

In the same patch that NERFS BARDS!

This is awesome.

marinerfan
12-09-2013, 12:39 PM
Really? DC does NOT determine the validity of good CC? You do understand to have valid CC, of any type, you must have a good DC in the first place.

Since you appear to be clueless about Bards, there is more the just Fascinate available to them - there is a Song the has a chance to break on damage and also adds a lingering debuff.

Again, really? No other type of CC require group management? Maybe if you only play with yourself.

Maybe you should get out and play with a Bard that knows what they are doing, or better yet, make on yourself so you will know what your talking about.

Your post only contains one truth, for a Bard to shine they need to cooperation of every party member and cooperation of any kind is hard to find these days for anyone of any class.

RE: DC - yes bard SONG DC's are nice, I agree. It's frustrating that any other spell-based CC is (easily) trumped by wiz/sorc with minimal effort.

RE: Enthrall - "has a chance to break on damage and adds a lingering debuff" -- the debuff is minimal at best and the second a sorc throws a fireball, or barbarian uses cleave, 50%++ of the mobs are free. Maybe if the song kept things enthralled until "X" amount of damage (based on perform skill) has been reached, you'd have a meritable argument here.

RE: Group management - what kind of 'group management' is required for "mass hold monster" or "otto's dancing ball"?? [see enemies dancing, run over and whack them]

RE: "One truth" - Cooperation of an entire party is ESPECIALLY important for bard based CC -- if the entire party isn't on the same page, it isn't even worth TRYING to CC with a bard.

Hafeal
12-09-2013, 01:02 PM
RE: "One truth" - Cooperation of an entire party is ESPECIALLY important for bard based CC -- if the entire party isn't on the same page, it isn't even worth TRYING to CC with a bard.

Indeed.

On my Bard, it's the rare group I can even get to stick for buffing songs - while running. They don't 'need' them. *shrug* Bards are famous for piking anyway, so, when I feel like getting some xp and not really working, I login into my Bard. Throw a heal, pew pew a little, dance a runaway mob here or there and enjoy the show.

Chai
12-09-2013, 01:10 PM
Oh the poetic justice keeps rolling in . . . look what monks got fixed, piling on even more Pay2win goodness . . .


Other Changes

Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm now again properly charge Everything is Nothing.

In the same patch that NERFS BARDS!

This is awesome.

Yey!!!

Now bards can get back to work writing the monks super hero theme music.

""There once was this monk from nantucket....""

ThreeEyedBob
12-09-2013, 01:11 PM
"Stupid is as stupid does"

Actions speak louder than words.

etc etc...

Turbine....cake.....face....

Steelstar
12-09-2013, 01:14 PM
https://www.ddo.com/en/update-20-patch-1-release-notes:
Bards need love not nerfs.

We definitely agree that Bards are in need of some love. That was, in fact, a focus of this patch, in which we:

- Reduced the singing time of a lot of Bard songs, some by more than half (Including Song of Capering, which was an important one for a lot of Bards. The total singing time on SoC went from five seconds to two, and the effect should be kicking off faster). Most Enhancement-based Bard songs were affected by the reduction in playing times.

- Rebuilt Victory Song entirely, turning it into a toggle that provides full Base Attack Bonus at all times. Previously, it was supposed to grant it only for a few seconds when Inspire Courage was used.

- Fixed Musical Studies, which provides much-needed Bard songs in Heroic levels.

- Fixed Song of Heroism to apply in an AOE, as well as give the (much longer) duration it was supposed to.

- Fixed Inspire Recklessness, which was not giving enough Doublestrike in its third rank.

- Cleaned up a variety of bugs and feedback issues with various other Bardic abilities.

We recognize that some of you are unhappy with the fix to Spellsong Vigor; the intent was not to make Bards weaker, but to fix a bug in an existing ability that was not working as intended. Prior to the U19 Enhancement pass, it was single target, and the description has always indicated this, even between U19 and today's patch.

We also recognize that Bards are still in need of additional love, and we thank you for your continued feedback; we are currently weighing some interesting Bard-related things to see if they fit into plans for next year.

AzB
12-09-2013, 01:16 PM
fascinate is great cc for soloing, but while playing in (decent) group it have generally no use, using it even slowers the quest progression. its most common use is for emergency handling. in most party-wiping situation i know i'll survive and could raise the party safely.. but that's all.

perhaps way-shortened enthrallment casting time may bring bards a little changes...

This. I use fascinate and enthrall a fair amount soloing, but in a group? I can count the times on both hands and have enough fingers left over to flip off whoever it is at Turbine that hates bards. ;)

And it's not from lack of trying. I've tried many times to educate folks, but with all the pew pew and insta kills flying around, fascinate is just not viable in a group at all. (Except as noted above in emergencies, and in those cases where the party splits up individually to conquer objectives in different areas... ie, soloing ;) )

Volarr
12-09-2013, 01:18 PM
• Bard Spellsinger:
? Musical Studies and Advanced Musical Studies will now properly increase your Bard Songs per rest
? Spell Song Vigor now only affects a single target (as per its description)
? Most Bard songs granted by Spellsinger enhancements now have shorter singing times.

• Bard Warchanter:
? Poetic Edda now only requires 1 Bard level (matching its place on the Enhancement tree).
? Song of Heroism now works on all nearby allies, as intended.
? Song of Heroism now scales its duration at the rate listed in its tooltip.
? Ironskin Chant no longer triggers when using Inspire Courage
? All ranks of Inspire Recklessness now give their listed amounts of Doublestrike
? Words of Encouragement's hitpoint effect is no longer listed as "Rallying Cry"
? Victory Song is now a toggled ability that grants full Base Attack Bonus when activated
? The buff from Howl of the North now persists through death, rest, and zoning.
? Most Bard songs granted by Warchanter enhancements now have shorter singing times.

How you like this ( fix ) Bards are real killers now

Cannith
Finnikin

Thar
12-09-2013, 01:18 PM
We definitely agree that Bards are in need of some love. That was, in fact, a focus of this patch, in which we:

- Reduced the singing time of a lot of Bard songs, some by more than half (Including Song of Capering, which was an important one for a lot of Bards. The total singing time on SoC went from five seconds to two, and the effect should be kicking off faster). Most Enhancement-based Bard songs were affected by the reduction in playing times.

- Rebuilt Song of Heroism entirely, turning it into a toggle that provides full Base Attack Bonus at all times. Previously, it was supposed to grant it only for a few seconds when Inspire Courage was used.

- Fixed Musical Studies, which provides much-needed Bard songs in Heroic levels.

- Fixed Song of Heroism to apply in an AOE, as well as give the (much longer) duration it was supposed to.

- Fixed Inspire Recklessness, which was not giving enough Doublestrike in its third rank.

- Cleaned up a variety of bugs and feedback issues with various other Bardic abilities.

We recognize that some of you are unhappy with the fix to Spellsong Vigor; the intent was not to make Bards weaker, but to fix a bug in an existing ability that was not working as intended. Prior to the U19 Enhancement pass, it was single target, and the description has always indicated this, even between U19 and today's patch.

We also recognize that Bards are still in need of additional love, and we thank you for your continued feedback; we are currently weighing some interesting Bard-related things to see if they fit into plans for next year.

does this fire off as AOE with elds edge rapier from house D epics?

Paleus
12-09-2013, 01:19 PM
Yey!!!

Now bards can get back to work writing the monks super hero theme music.

""There once was this monk from nantucket....""

the Devs could have balanced the class but naww....

AzB
12-09-2013, 01:22 PM
Oh the poetic justice keeps rolling in . . . look what monks got fixed, piling on even more Pay2win goodness . . .


Other Changes

Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm now again properly charge Everything is Nothing.

In the same patch that NERFS BARDS!

This is awesome.

Yes, the irony was not lost on me either.

Although I hear that Turbine is working on a new bard ability achievable only at cap and only by pure bards. It allows bards to do the laundry of monks, giving the monks another +1 in everything they do.

AzB
12-09-2013, 01:29 PM
Sustaining song is now bugged as well, only working single target

I noticed that this morning. I was going to post a suggestion in the suggestion area that for epic levels the song would be allowed to scale healing more... maybe a Fatesinger enhancement that pumps up the healing a bit. But if it's only for one toon, it's basically worthless.

But they did shorten the casting time of some of the other songs, and that's pretty nice, even if the cooldowns still prevent singing some songs back to back.

So shorter singing times, and song of heroism affects everyone in range. And two other very popular songs have to be sung seperately for each individual member of the party. Every time Turbine attempts to help bards, they hurt them worse than they help. One step forward, two steps back.

nichefish
12-09-2013, 01:33 PM
bards are still very weak obviously, but at least not as *unplayably* broken as before... i see some hope

Chai
12-09-2013, 01:35 PM
Yes, the irony was not lost on me either.

Although I hear that Turbine is working on a new bard ability achievable only at cap and only by pure bards. It allows bards to do the laundry of monks, giving the monks another +1 in everything they do.

Aaawwww, you mean I cant multiclass a bard and still get the ability to do monks laundry? :(

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
12-09-2013, 01:41 PM
We definitely agree that Bards are in need of some love. That was, in fact, a focus of this patch, in which we:

- Reduced the singing time of a lot of Bard songs, some by more than half (Including Song of Capering, which was an important one for a lot of Bards. The total singing time on SoC went from five seconds to two, and the effect should be kicking off faster). Most Enhancement-based Bard songs were affected by the reduction in playing times.

- Rebuilt Song of Heroism entirely, turning it into a toggle that provides full Base Attack Bonus at all times. Previously, it was supposed to grant it only for a few seconds when Inspire Courage was used.

- Fixed Musical Studies, which provides much-needed Bard songs in Heroic levels.

- Fixed Song of Heroism to apply in an AOE, as well as give the (much longer) duration it was supposed to.

- Fixed Inspire Recklessness, which was not giving enough Doublestrike in its third rank.

- Cleaned up a variety of bugs and feedback issues with various other Bardic abilities.

We recognize that some of you are unhappy with the fix to Spellsong Vigor; the intent was not to make Bards weaker, but to fix a bug in an existing ability that was not working as intended. Prior to the U19 Enhancement pass, it was single target, and the description has always indicated this, even between U19 and today's patch.

We also recognize that Bards are still in need of additional love, and we thank you for your continued feedback; we are currently weighing some interesting Bard-related things to see if they fit into plans for next year.

With all due respects Steelstar you mainly fixed bugs... the bard community has been asking for more spells, since before "spellsinger" was uttered out of the playerbase's lips. I have a list of 3.5e bard spells missing from DDO floating around these boards somewhere, and I'd like to see you finally take on adding spells to the class. I think mob immunities also need another looksee, which can further boost bard and caster CC effectiveness.

Will you start a new thread asking for player feedback before the new year and commit to this new bard romance the developers are suddenly ... fascinated by? ;)

Aliss7
12-09-2013, 01:41 PM
Man, people really hate it when you take their toys away from them even when it's clearly not WAI. :P Queue up the hate when turbine fixes twists of fate!

Nahiz
12-09-2013, 01:44 PM
More love to bards, please!

And the thread being moved to "bard" forum only proves Turbine doesn´t want nobody but bard fanbois to read about it. C´mon, we want it to be a general discussion, it´s not like we are debating on specific builds or something.

Volarr
12-09-2013, 01:54 PM
My Bard as he was, never had the time to play all his songs before the others in the groups ran off to kill things and I would chase them and try to finish buffing them. Then I might be able to swing my blunt longsword or as I figured out later that it was a waste of time and went to ranging to do some damage. Then my songs would start to wear off and its a real pain to try rebuffing on the fly. no group will stop for bard songs midstream in a quest. un less its a shrine break.

So to help me out my songs get shorter lasting times. Now I get to spend more time running back and forth trying to rebuff.

I love this game, I waited my whole life to be able to play it.
When I started playing Korthos was swarming with new players. There were so many groups listed I remember that there was a problem between the Snowy side and the Sunny side. Its a lonely place there now. you have to solo there now and don't look for groups that are not there.
Just look at thre LFG's there are so few now

Turbine WAKEUP YOUR KILLING US. YOUR KILLING YOURSELF.

Death_Mystic
12-09-2013, 02:06 PM
We definitely agree that Bards are in need of some love. That was, in fact, a focus of this patch, in which we:

- Reduced the singing time of a lot of Bard songs, some by more than half (Including Song of Capering, which was an important one for a lot of Bards. The total singing time on SoC went from five seconds to two, and the effect should be kicking off faster). Most Enhancement-based Bard songs were affected by the reduction in playing times.

- Rebuilt Song of Heroism entirely, turning it into a toggle that provides full Base Attack Bonus at all times. Previously, it was supposed to grant it only for a few seconds when Inspire Courage was used.

- Fixed Musical Studies, which provides much-needed Bard songs in Heroic levels.

- Fixed Song of Heroism to apply in an AOE, as well as give the (much longer) duration it was supposed to.

- Fixed Inspire Recklessness, which was not giving enough Doublestrike in its third rank.

- Cleaned up a variety of bugs and feedback issues with various other Bardic abilities.

We recognize that some of you are unhappy with the fix to Spellsong Vigor; the intent was not to make Bards weaker, but to fix a bug in an existing ability that was not working as intended. Prior to the U19 Enhancement pass, it was single target, and the description has always indicated this, even between U19 and today's patch.

We also recognize that Bards are still in need of additional love, and we thank you for your continued feedback; we are currently weighing some interesting Bard-related things to see if they fit into plans for next year.

These are awesome to hear. While I am disappointed that vigor in now WAI I can hope you will transfer it back to mass at some point :)

Also I would love it if there was an Upgraded (ML 25 to 27) Elyd Edge style weapon for bards. Took over 16 months just to get the Shard to epic it that now at level 25 I still refuse to take it off.

voodoogroves
12-09-2013, 02:54 PM
Oh the poetic justice keeps rolling in . . . look what monks got fixed, piling on even more Pay2win goodness . . .


Other Changes

Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm now again properly charge Everything is Nothing.

In the same patch that NERFS BARDS!

This is awesome.

The comedic value in this patch is awesome.

My bard is now a monk, so whatever.

AzB
12-09-2013, 03:00 PM
Man, people really hate it when you take their toys away from them even when it's clearly not WAI. :P Queue up the hate when turbine fixes twists of fate!

Actually, they went one further and made sustaining song single target only, and it is supposed to be a group thing. And technically, they're not taking my toys away from me, they're taking them away from everyone else in the group. I can always sing to myself, but rarely is a group going to stand there and let me sing individual songs for each person.

And yeah, kinda hard to compare twists at low levels to a freaking bard song. That's like comparing racing a minivan against a formula 1 car.

Steelstar
12-09-2013, 03:03 PM
Actually, they went one further and made sustaining song single target only, and it is supposed to be a group thing.

This is a bug, already fixed internally, and targeted for an upcoming patch.

rest
12-09-2013, 03:17 PM
This is a bug, already fixed internally, and targeted for an upcoming patch.

Fix challenge XP while you're at it.

AzB
12-09-2013, 03:19 PM
This is a bug, already fixed internally, and targeted for an upcoming patch.

Cool, thanks for the info. I won't bother bug reporting then. ;)

Thar
12-09-2013, 03:20 PM
elyd edge doesnt effect spell song vigor or any enhancement based songs at all.

it should, it's a pain to get and the other songs were added afterwards so hey dev's a little help here?

LrdSlvrhnd
12-09-2013, 03:21 PM
We definitely agree that Bards are in need of some love. That was, in fact, a focus of this patch, in which we:

We recognize that some of you are unhappy with the fix to Spellsong Vigor; the intent was not to make Bards weaker, but to fix a bug in an existing ability that was not working as intended. Prior to the U19 Enhancement pass, it was single target, and the description has always indicated this, even between U19 and today's patch.

And once again, a "bug" in the players' favor gets "fixed". If this had been the other way around - if the description had stated AoE and it was proccing as single-target - I guarantee that the "fix" would've been a change in the description. Why couldn't you have done that this time? Bards are not so OP that AoE Spellsong Vigor breaks the game. Now when my bard finally gets flagged for CitW, I suspect she's pretty much going to NEED to both switch out Magical Studies (for that sweet, sweet SP and Echoes of Power - for Musical Studies *and* run in Fatesinger rather than trying to level another ED, simply for the extra songs for SS Vigor.

While I appreciate the faster songs and other bard fixes, this was NOT one that needed doing. Some kind of multi-song, yes. This, no.

voodoogroves
12-09-2013, 03:23 PM
We definitely agree that Bards are in need of some love. That was, in fact, a focus of this patch, in which we:

- Reduced the singing time of a lot of Bard songs, some by more than half (Including Song of Capering, which was an important one for a lot of Bards. The total singing time on SoC went from five seconds to two, and the effect should be kicking off faster). Most Enhancement-based Bard songs were affected by the reduction in playing times.

SoC was originally instant, and with a much longer range.


- Rebuilt Song of Heroism entirely, turning it into a toggle that provides full Base Attack Bonus at all times. Previously, it was supposed to grant it only for a few seconds when Inspire Courage was used.
You mean Victory song. This is potentially a good chance, as before no serious player I knew ever freaking bothered with it.

Give the state of to-hit, AC and similar - it maybe is gratuitous. I suppose it does affect attack speed.


- Fixed Musical Studies, which provides much-needed Bard songs in Heroic levels.
Yep, definite bug.


- Fixed Song of Heroism to apply in an AOE, as well as give the (much longer) duration it was supposed to.
k


- Fixed Inspire Recklessness, which was not giving enough Doublestrike in its third rank.
Does it still not stack with items? I don't have a bard currently (as I said, I've TR'd the only one I had into a monk).


- Cleaned up a variety of bugs and feedback issues with various other Bardic abilities.
Good.


We recognize that some of you are unhappy with the fix to Spellsong Vigor; the intent was not to make Bards weaker, but to fix a bug in an existing ability that was not working as intended. Prior to the U19 Enhancement pass, it was single target, and the description has always indicated this, even between U19 and today's patch.

See the above about Song of Capering, if we're saying the standard is Pre-U19.


We also recognize that Bards are still in need of additional love, and we thank you for your continued feedback; we are currently weighing some interesting Bard-related things to see if they fit into plans for next year.

You really need to group songs. I'm a bard-fan, but honeslty waiting for a bard to sing their songs is horrid. They aren't necessary, and don't make anyone better in a meaningful way given the opportunity cost of everyone sitting around waiting for that Spell Song Vigor to be cast 6 times (say). "When you Inspire Courage you also ..." needs to be the mantra.

And/or you need to make sure all single target buffs work appropriately w/ the Eyld Edge and hit all in an area.

And, you guys should really clearly articulate exactly how the fascinate adders (enthrall, etc.) are supposed to work. Duration is fixed, many mobs still seem to be immune or ignore crazy high saves, etc.


Aside from bugs, these things are the largest problem areas for bards.

- Buffs take way too long to cast. Minutes if you're handing them out individually, etc. and people don't like to stand around for 3 minutes waiting for someone to sing a bunch of 3 minute duration buff songs. Group them, speed them up, let them hit multiple people at once.
- CC with songs while cool, is really stupid easy to break. Fascinate has an awesome DC but the "hit once and break" makes it largely useless in practical mixed-group settings ... and the way damage scales, Enthrall DC to hold after taking damage simply can't last either.
- Marigold crown is nice, but carry that same bonus over to Prodigy, and maybe add spells so that spell-focused bards can truly specialize ... carry it to the capstone and instead of adding Wail, add a choice of Wail, Mass Hold Monster or some sonic DPS spell.
- The Warchanter freeze DC is laughable.
- Oh, and the Warchanter crapstone doesn't stack with competence (ie, deadly) items, which every serious melee would have strived for previous (GH goggles) and now has +10 competence bonus to damage slotted they got in a random chest drop or on the AH. Warchanter +6 is piddly. Capstone should be as strong as evasion ... or as strong as a fighter 1 / FVS 1 dip for divine might, a feat, haste boost and extra action boost.

SisAmethyst
12-09-2013, 03:36 PM
I really appreciate that you fix bugs, I really do. So if this wasn't WAI, well done. However I in this case I would have expected you think twice and maybe make this functionality WAI instead. Bards really didn't deserve to get hampered by this singing ten times the same song over and over again. It's already a pain to do the other single target buffs...

Atremus
12-09-2013, 03:49 PM
This is a bug, already fixed internally, and targeted for an upcoming patch.

Thanks for the heads up on this. Appreciate that we know that you know that we all know that was broken.


Suggestions:

1) Sustaining song needs to be useful in epic fights. Mobs hit for 100+ now and healing needs to make it possible to Melee somehow

2) one song to rule them all.... Let us put a selection of songs in a custom song to make bards talke less time at quest zone in.

Kyodaemon
12-09-2013, 04:10 PM
We definitely agree that Bards are in need of some love. That was, in fact, a focus of this patch, in which we:

- Reduced the singing time of a lot of Bard songs, some by more than half (Including Song of Capering, which was an important one for a lot of Bards. The total singing time on SoC went from five seconds to two, and the effect should be kicking off faster). Most Enhancement-based Bard songs were affected by the reduction in playing times.

- Rebuilt Victory Song entirely, turning it into a toggle that provides full Base Attack Bonus at all times. Previously, it was supposed to grant it only for a few seconds when Inspire Courage was used.

- Fixed Musical Studies, which provides much-needed Bard songs in Heroic levels.

- Fixed Song of Heroism to apply in an AOE, as well as give the (much longer) duration it was supposed to.

- Fixed Inspire Recklessness, which was not giving enough Doublestrike in its third rank.

- Cleaned up a variety of bugs and feedback issues with various other Bardic abilities.

We recognize that some of you are unhappy with the fix to Spellsong Vigor; the intent was not to make Bards weaker, but to fix a bug in an existing ability that was not working as intended. Prior to the U19 Enhancement pass, it was single target, and the description has always indicated this, even between U19 and today's patch.

We also recognize that Bards are still in need of additional love, and we thank you for your continued feedback; we are currently weighing some interesting Bard-related things to see if they fit into plans for next year.

None of that classifies as 'love'. Bug fixes. The class is at the bottom of the pile and it seems that it's Turbines lowest priority? Even after these changes you still say it needs love.. this thread is *full* of the changes that players actually want to be made :P It's there to see.

Some of those bug fixes were pointed out during open and, I do presume here so correct me if wrong, closed beta?

You lose Bard players day by day. Start changing the 'enhancement' songs to simply add effects to Inspire Courage, and you'll be on to a winner.

Victory song doesn't count as anything special, it was the right thing to do. But it's months late at this point. "Fixing" spell-song vigor has angered more people than any of those changes has helped out :P

More mass songs.. should any song actually be single target? Doesn't make any sense to me.

On another note, do bards get free Enhancement changes to go pick up the stuff that now works properly? :/ I've wasted more than 1mil plat respeccing out of broken stuff already lmao.


Good to see the communication, keep it up.

Sgt_Hart
12-09-2013, 05:12 PM
We recognize that some of you are unhappy with the fix to Spellsong Vigor; the intent was not to make Bards weaker, but to fix a bug in an existing ability that was not working as intended. Prior to the U19 Enhancement pass, it was single target, and the description has always indicated this, even between U19 and today's patch.

We also recognize that Bards are still in need of additional love, and we thank you for your continued feedback; we are currently weighing some interesting Bard-related things to see if they fit into plans for next year.


Fix: The description then.

Until you can plausibly sing in a full room, and let one person hear you.. It's quite apparent where the bug was.

Systern
12-09-2013, 05:18 PM
This is a bug, already fixed internally, and targeted for an upcoming patch.

Will you fix its duration as well?

Song of Arcane Might says it lasts 24 seconds and 6 seconds per level. After all the Duration increases of my currently level 12 Bard, it lasts 4:07 when sung.
Sustaining Song also says it lasts 24 seconds and 6 seconds per level. It lasts 3:04 when sung.
Spell Song Vigor also has a duration of 3:04 when sung, and no duration listed in the ability.

Thank you for cutting the play times to 2 seconds, however, all the cooldowns of the songs are still 10 seconds. This actually doesn't decrease buff times at all since you're waiting for shared cooldowns. This will actually increase parties running away before the bards done, since they'll see the bard standing around for 6 seconds waiting for the next song to be ready to be performed. Please cut the cooldown to 5 seconds which is enough time for the animation to end.


Also, since my bards aren't currently Epic... has anyone tested whether Epic Elyd Edge makes the single target songs AoE?

Silken-Akira
12-09-2013, 05:38 PM
Thanks for the fixes (I do mean it). Now on the other hand let's indeed see that love you were talking about and make bards a class that counts among the others.

Cahira
12-09-2013, 10:01 PM
Also, since my bards aren't currently Epic... has anyone tested whether Epic Elyd Edge makes the single target songs AoE?

Prior to the enhancement pass, the Epic Elyd Edge's Inspiring Echoes worked with Spellsong Vigor. I used it all the time, and I loved it.

However, after today's patch, I found that the Epic Elyd Edge no longer functions that way with Spellsong Vigor. It also does not make Sustaining Song area effect. Per the text in the Inspiring Echoes, it appears always to have listed only 3 songs that it should work on. But it's always seemed to work with all of the songs that were single target for allies. If this was not WAI, then it would have been nice to have THAT mentioned in the patch notes...not to just totally take away something that we've assumed was working correctly for over a year (that's how long I've had my Epic Elyd Edge...not how long it's been in the game).

I didn't really care about the changes when I read them and logged in to see how everything worked. My husband and I jumped into epic Wiz King, and I did my buffing. As soon as I saw that my Epic Elyd Edge no longer works they way it has for as long as I've had it, I became fully disgusted and had to log out. I've got other stuff to do...like some tv to watch...and a Santa costume to sew...things that I'll enjoy more tonight than I would DDO after this change.

(note: this is not a rage-quit. I'm just irritated and need a few days to calm down. I've gotten irritated at this game lots in the past 7.5 years that I've played...and I keep coming back. But I am very frustrated by this new change and disappointed. It seems that somehow the devs have it in their heads that bards are overpowered and must always be reined in. Don't get me wrong...I do all right in quests...and I love playing bards--I have 6 in this game--but it does feel that we get shafted or outright neglected more than most other classes.)

Steevye
12-09-2013, 10:36 PM
Sustaining song is now bugged as well, only working single target

Yeah seems like when they changed SV, they did the same changes to this song.

I'd like to see the SP bursts back with SS if it's going single target. Sustaining song is described as an aoe and has always functioned as such, now it's really not worth using.

But hey, song of heroism is aoe again, and while there is negligible difference in song casting time, it was an attempt.

stoerm
12-10-2013, 12:05 AM
Actually, they went one further and made sustaining song single target only, and it is supposed to be a group thing


This is a bug, already fixed internally, and targeted for an upcoming patch.


And once again, a "bug" in the players' favor gets "fixed". If this had been the other way around - if the description had stated AoE and it was proccing as single-target - I guarantee that the "fix" would've been a change in the description.


What else can you guarantee?

I guarantee the Unending Song of Hyperbolic Whine on the forums. :D

jackabat
12-10-2013, 11:22 AM
- Reduced the singing time of a lot of Bard songs, some by more than half (Including Song of Capering, which was an important one for a lot of Bards. The total singing time on SoC went from five seconds to two, and the effect should be kicking off faster).
To reiterate what another has said, pre enhancement pass song of capering was instant cast. It's why the relative few that took virtuoso did so--even shortening it to 2 seconds is terribly worse than it was before the pass.

Shmuel
12-10-2013, 08:07 PM
WAI is irrelevant if intended way for this to work sucks.

The aoe spellsong vigor was a less than adequate replacement for the real major bard nerf - which was the complete removal of spellsingers mass spellpoint regen to the entire party as a percent chance of their perform with EVERY SONG they sang.

I pointed this out to at least 3 separate developers during the enhancement pass preview, so it was no oversight.

Bards have the potential to be lots of fun. as they are now, they are no fun. sing your songs dance a couple individual mobs, maybe backup heal a bit. even with an epic sword of shadow and PDK charisma to damage enhancements a bard cannot get meaningful damage at endgame. Not a single spell they cast which has a save will be effective at endgame. The one major bard ability- fascinate - breaks when the first time someone hits the mob with an aoe effect, which are increasingly common on basic weapons.


Here is how to fix bards without making them OP(making them OP being nearly impossible without remaking the entire game):

1. Change the bard party buff songs: make bard songs aoe and make them additions to the basic inspire courage rather than separate songs so we only have to sing once. Double the bonus values for all of them once the bard hits level 21 (ie. inspire courage grants +8 damage instead of +4 at epic levels)

2. Make bardic (and arty while at it) DC casting potentially relevant at endgame. make an epic feat that requires 20 bard or 20 artificer class levels that gives a +5 DC to evocation and enchantment spells.

3. add to both bard capstones the ability for mobs to remain fascinated until they are down to 50% of their original HP, not just until they are hit at all, or make an epic feat which makes them remain fascinated no matter how much damage they take (i suggest calling this feat "death metal mosh pit frenzied fascinate" or some such)

4. Add more spells to the spellsinger line. Wall of sound is still good (if you are not too busy depositing money from ottobox sales to create the spell), mass hold monster, prismatic spray, and some other appropriate choices.

5. grant 2 class feats at levels 10 and 20. make them the same as wizard or fighter class feat choices.


OK I've said my peace, now you can go ahead and never read this and redo the entire feat system from the ground up instead of making any new content for the next two years.

Silken-Akira
12-11-2013, 03:01 AM
WAI is irrelevant if intended way for this to work sucks.

The aoe spellsong vigor was a less than adequate replacement for the real major bard nerf - which was the complete removal of spellsingers mass spellpoint regen to the entire party as a percent chance of their perform with EVERY SONG they sang.

I pointed this out to at least 3 separate developers during the enhancement pass preview, so it was no oversight.

Bards have the potential to be lots of fun. as they are now, they are no fun. sing your songs dance a couple individual mobs, maybe backup heal a bit. even with an epic sword of shadow and PDK charisma to damage enhancements a bard cannot get meaningful damage at endgame. Not a single spell they cast which has a save will be effective at endgame. The one major bard ability- fascinate - breaks when the first time someone hits the mob with an aoe effect, which are increasingly common on basic weapons.


Here is how to fix bards without making them OP(making them OP being nearly impossible without remaking the entire game):

1. Change the bard party buff songs: make bard songs aoe and make them additions to the basic inspire courage rather than separate songs so we only have to sing once. Double the bonus values for all of them once the bard hits level 21 (ie. inspire courage grants +8 damage instead of +4 at epic levels)

2. Make bardic (and arty while at it) DC casting potentially relevant at endgame. make an epic feat that requires 20 bard or 20 artificer class levels that gives a +5 DC to evocation and enchantment spells.

3. add to both bard capstones the ability for mobs to remain fascinated until they are down to 50% of their original HP, not just until they are hit at all, or make an epic feat which makes them remain fascinated no matter how much damage they take (i suggest calling this feat "death metal mosh pit frenzied fascinate" or some such)

4. Add more spells to the spellsinger line. Wall of sound is still good (if you are not too busy depositing money from ottobox sales to create the spell), mass hold monster, prismatic spray, and some other appropriate choices.

5. grant 2 class feats at levels 10 and 20. make them the same as wizard or fighter class feat choices.


OK I've said my peace, now you can go ahead and never read this and redo the entire feat system from the ground up instead of making any new content for the next two years.

Like this suggestions.

I actually have a challenge for the dev team in mind. Let's make the next iconic a bard oriented one that is up to par with other builds at epic levels.I guess this will maybe force them to actually take action on some points mentioned in you list above and other people their remarks, because I can't believe they can all cram it in the race to make it any decent.

AzB
12-11-2013, 01:53 PM
Some terrific ideas S.



2. Make bardic (and arty while at it) DC casting potentially relevant at endgame. make an epic feat that requires 20 bard or 20 artificer class levels that gives a +5 DC to evocation and enchantment spells.



I would prefer to see this added to the enhancement tree. There's plenty of room for it if you get rid of some of fluff, and it would allow multiclassers to get some, or most of the plusses to DC as they level. It would be easy enough to lock out other casters from taking these by making the level requirement high enough that they're only available to actual bards... like maybe the first +1 to DCs at lvl 12, another at 16, then 18, with a final +2 dc available with capstone. This would give part time bards a little more incentive to be more bardlike, and still give pures a boost.

samthedagger
12-14-2013, 02:08 AM
We recognize that some of you are unhappy with the fix to Spellsong Vigor; the intent was not to make Bards weaker, but to fix a bug in an existing ability that was not working as intended. Prior to the U19 Enhancement pass, it was single target, and the description has always indicated this, even between U19 and today's patch. But why??? Just... WHY??? Allowing the "bug" to continue is one of the best things that ever happened to spellsingers. Do you have any idea how long it takes to apply spellsong vigor to every caster in a raid group? It's not about lack of songs, it about the sheer amount of time it takes to sing the songs and wait for the 10 second cooldown. Long after everyone else has cast all of their single-target AND mass spells, the bard is still there, singing away. And when spellsong vigor duration expires, you have to hunt down each player to sing it for them... and Host forbid they move our of range while singing. It was so much easier to simply say "group up for spellsong vigor" and let it go at that. You should have left the "bug" in and changed the description.

Bards don't want to be running around singing single-target buffs the whole time. It isn't fun. ALL bard songs should be balanced to affect an AoE.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
12-14-2013, 04:22 PM
Ive been asking for this one for years:

Medley: One song does it ALL! All available bard songs buffages are available in one (slightly longer) song. Additionally, you can check off which songs are part of your stack. Naturally, you can still sing each song independently.

~~~~**~~~~

When it comes to playing a bard right, time is of the essence. "Not having time" to sing a bard song should never be an acceptable excuse. Turbine needs to address this once and for all.

Wanesa
12-14-2013, 04:46 PM
I don't have problem with time. If there is sufficient count of the DPS toons and the healers I am playing a support toon being able to cast and/or to sign the songs during a fight without any interruption (including Fascinate, regardless on how many THF firghters are in the group). Why buff only at the start or at the rest shrines? You can walk or run during the signing. Running phases are the best for the buffing.

voodoogroves
12-14-2013, 04:53 PM
I don't have problem with time. If there is sufficient count of the DPS toons and the healers I am playing a support toon being able to cast and/or to sign the songs during a fight without any interruption (including Fascinate, regardless on how many THF firghters are in the group). Why buff only at the start or at the rest shrines? You can walk or run during the signing. Running phases are the best for the buffing.

Because all you're doing is singing constantly and trying to stay with the fast people.

I've long wanted to add effects to existing songs instead of adding new songs. Give us more single-song short-term things (like capering - and convert the action-boost WC things into songs) - sure ... make them quick-cast like an action boost. Hell, make sustaining song a quick-cast vigor instead.

Othrewise though ... stack everything on fascinate, inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire heroics - whatever.

Wanesa
12-14-2013, 08:13 PM
Because all you're doing is singing constantly and trying to stay with the fast people.

And you did find that this is not fun. Because everybody want to play self sufficient selfhealing high DPS killers (with evasion ability to disable traps) That is why healers don't want to heal, and bards don't want to sing.

BoBoDaClown
12-15-2013, 03:43 AM
And you did find that this is not fun. Because everybody want to play self sufficient selfhealing high DPS killers (with evasion ability to disable traps) That is why healers don't want to heal, and bards don't want to sing.

I enjoy healing - there is some challenge.

I like support - I don't think bards should have the same dps as everybody else.

That doesn't change the fact that cycling through a bunch of songs is boring.

Add all buffing songs to Inspire Courage (with a metamagic style toggle). Length of songs will also need to be standardised.

Catclaws
12-16-2013, 11:12 AM
Is Sustaining Song still broken?

jackabat
12-16-2013, 11:38 AM
And you did find that this is not fun. Because everybody want to play self sufficient selfhealing high DPS killers (with evasion ability to disable traps) That is why healers don't want to heal, and bards don't want to sing.

I have some sympathy for what you're saying, but there's no depth to that gameplay in the bard as is. People are fighting, so inspire courage. We're in a quest at all, so inspire excellence. There's at least one spellcaster in the party, so spellsongs. Outside of a song or two, all the buffing bard songs you kind of just want up all the time, to the limits of your number of songs per rest.

(Fascinate/enthrall/capering are all exceptions to this, of course.)

sgz
12-16-2013, 04:05 PM
Because all you're doing is singing constantly and trying to stay with the fast people.

I've long wanted to add effects to existing songs instead of adding new songs. Give us more single-song short-term things (like capering - and convert the action-boost WC things into songs) - sure ... make them quick-cast like an action boost. Hell, make sustaining song a quick-cast vigor instead.

Othrewise though ... stack everything on fascinate, inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire heroics - whatever.

Agree on this one.
Yea, adding in toggle-able stacking effects onto IC is probably the simplest way of cleaning up the buffing process (for melee) and a different song for the spell/casting buffs.

A quick fix to the DC based disparity is adding in a bonus class feature to Bards, something like getting +1 to enchantment based DCs for every 6 Bard levels so it ends up being +3 by L18 to cover the Level6 vs Level9 spell gap.

Another quick fix to spell based options would be to use a Bard's forte in music and the spoken word by adding in say Power Word spells at various enhancement tiers (which is more optimal and keeping in lore). This is how I setup my Sublime Chord Bard char in PnP under 3.5 (seems to be more in theme than say Meteor Swarm/Evocation type spells). The various higher level hold spells also fit the motif.

Seems like there's any number of "simple" tweaks/changes which can dramatically improve the Bard class features and quality of play time if they really wanted to do it.

TDarkchylde
12-17-2013, 02:11 AM
We definitely agree that Bards are in need of some love. That was, in fact, a focus of this patch, in which we:

- Reduced the singing time of a lot of Bard songs, some by more than half (Including Song of Capering, which was an important one for a lot of Bards. The total singing time on SoC went from five seconds to two, and the effect should be kicking off faster). Most Enhancement-based Bard songs were affected by the reduction in playing times.
This one specifically annoys me. Yes, you reduced the time required to sing these songs, but it is absolutely no help when all of them share a ten second cooldown with themselves, much less with Inspire Greatness. All it does is leave me more time to twiddle my thumbs while waiting on these shared cooldowns to conclude. No one is going to wait for me to sing six Vigors, a Trance, a Song of Arcane Might, six Sustaining Songs (please fix this), an Inspire Greatness, an Inspire Courage, an Inspire Heroics, and an Inspire Competence for all except me - and that's just in a six man group! In a raid? Bard songs are useless. By the time you're done singing, assuming you can get eleven other people to actually wait for songs, the songs on the first person are expiring!

Which update do we get to await the unchaining of cooldowns that's needed to come since Spellsinger and Warchanter were first introduced?


- Rebuilt Victory Song entirely, turning it into a toggle that provides full Base Attack Bonus at all times. Previously, it was supposed to grant it only for a few seconds when Inspire Courage was used.
Barely noticed, Warchanter is still underpowered compared to Spellsinger, much less other Arcane PrEs. With the introduction of Eldritch Knight, it needs a serious rework.


- Fixed Musical Studies, which provides much-needed Bard songs in Heroic levels.
About time.


- Fixed Song of Heroism to apply in an AOE, as well as give the (much longer) duration it was supposed to.
About time.


- Fixed Inspire Recklessness, which was not giving enough Doublestrike in its third rank.
About time, even though some people still won't take the song, especially with the Fortification changes.


- Cleaned up a variety of bugs and feedback issues with various other Bardic abilities.
Which?


We recognize that some of you are unhappy with the fix to Spellsong Vigor; the intent was not to make Bards weaker, but to fix a bug in an existing ability that was not working as intended. Prior to the U19 Enhancement pass, it was single target, and the description has always indicated this, even between U19 and today's patch.

We also recognize that Bards are still in need of additional love, and we thank you for your continued feedback; we are currently weighing some interesting Bard-related things to see if they fit into plans for next year.
To be honest, I thought y'all had finally got the point that Bards were weaksauce and fixed Vigor, without changing the description. You know, a stealth fix? To give Bards some love.

Wasn't really surprised that it got taken away though.

Here's a hint I'd suggest for future development of Bards. Once an update, if it seems just a bit too OP for Bards? It's probably perfect, let them have that slightly OP shiny. They need a few. Including AoE Vigor. Or at least code it to work with an Epic Elyd Edge's Inspiring Echoes so it can become AoE.

Don1966
12-30-2013, 06:09 PM
We definitely agree that Bards are in need of some love. That was, in fact, a focus of this patch, in which we:

- Reduced the singing time of a lot of Bard songs, some by more than half (Including Song of Capering, which was an important one for a lot of Bards. The total singing time on SoC went from five seconds to two, and the effect should be kicking off faster). Most Enhancement-based Bard songs were affected by the reduction in playing times.



reducing the singing time is great and all, but the majority of my bards songs share the same cool down timer. i can not conceive of any reason why any song should share a cool down timer with another song. give each song its own timer and i'll be a happier.

AzB
01-01-2014, 06:31 PM
reducing the singing time is great and all, but the majority of my bards songs share the same cool down timer. i can not conceive of any reason why any song should share a cool down timer with another song. give each song its own timer and i'll be a happier.

To go one further, why should any song have a substantial cooldown? Now that vigor and trance have become single target spells, it takes bleedin' forever to cast them on multiple party members. How about a raid? It's enough to make a bard run screaming into the darkness.

The good news is that most other players aren't too worried about any bard songs anyway, so if you don't sing them they simply go unnoticed.

I mostly just sing for myself now anyway. My bard needs the buffs, most of the monkcher/wf arcanes, etc don't need any of them anyway. They obliterate everything nearly instantly and are completely self sufficient and immune to most everything.

Phot
01-06-2014, 09:03 AM
Bards are not meant to get love but to give some. And if they give some they'll get some in return. A "pure" spellsinger hardly ever kills any monster, is unable to solo any quest but it's value increases with party size and quest difficulty. In "endgame" EE quests he's the capstone of the party, the party's most important member.

I'm disapointed they nerfed it because bards were rather rare in game and now it will be even more rare. DDO needs social builds because it's more fun to play with balanced and inter-dependant parties, and not parties which are merely an addition of big-DPS-high-saves-self-healing clones.

NovaNZ
01-11-2014, 09:43 PM
We definitely agree that Bards are in need of some love. That was, in fact, a focus of this patch, in which we:

- Reduced the singing time of a lot of Bard songs, some by more than half (Including Song of Capering, which was an important one for a lot of Bards. The total singing time on SoC went from five seconds to two, and the effect should be kicking off faster). Most Enhancement-based Bard songs were affected by the reduction in playing times.

- Rebuilt Victory Song entirely, turning it into a toggle that provides full Base Attack Bonus at all times. Previously, it was supposed to grant it only for a few seconds when Inspire Courage was used.

- Fixed Musical Studies, which provides much-needed Bard songs in Heroic levels.

- Fixed Song of Heroism to apply in an AOE, as well as give the (much longer) duration it was supposed to.

- Fixed Inspire Recklessness, which was not giving enough Doublestrike in its third rank.

- Cleaned up a variety of bugs and feedback issues with various other Bardic abilities.

We recognize that some of you are unhappy with the fix to Spellsong Vigor; the intent was not to make Bards weaker, but to fix a bug in an existing ability that was not working as intended. Prior to the U19 Enhancement pass, it was single target, and the description has always indicated this, even between U19 and today's patch.

We also recognize that Bards are still in need of additional love, and we thank you for your continued feedback; we are currently weighing some interesting Bard-related things to see if they fit into plans for next year.

Bollocks!

Zongen - Cannith

Steelstar
01-12-2014, 06:32 AM
This one specifically annoys me. Yes, you reduced the time required to sing these songs, but it is absolutely no help when all of them share a ten second cooldown with themselves, much less with Inspire Greatness.

Which update do we get to await the unchaining of cooldowns that's needed to come since Spellsinger and Warchanter were first introduced?


In Update 21, almost every Bard Song has been given its own cooldown timer. In addition, several single-target songs now have shorter cooldowns.

katz
01-12-2014, 12:56 PM
...

.


...
!!!
.
...


~!



....


i love you >.>
!

Missing_Minds
01-12-2014, 01:08 PM
In Update 21, almost every Bard Song has been given its own cooldown timer. In addition, several single-target songs now have shorter cooldowns.

Ok, rather than make an overly disparaging remark because players have bug reported this quality of life issue for 9-10 years... (and we are very grateful that it is FINALLY being done)

Why did it take so long? Is there a high overhead on timers?

Oxarhamar
01-12-2014, 03:49 PM
In Update 21, almost every Bard Song has been given its own cooldown timer. In addition, several single-target songs now have shorter cooldowns.

this is great news!

on the topic of cooldown timers the Artificer spell Deadly Weapons (which in most situations every melee character is going to ask for) cooldown is too long. Its a buff with a single target. What is the issue that it must be so long? Its not like being able to buff the party faster is going to break the game.

please give Deadly Weapons a shorter cooldown timer also.

Thanks again for the Bard songs!

sirgog
01-12-2014, 11:56 PM
this is great news!

on the topic of cooldown timers the Artificer spell Deadly Weapons (which in most situations every melee character is going to ask for) cooldown is too long. Its a buff with a single target. What is the issue that it must be so long? Its not like being able to buff the party faster is going to break the game.

please give Deadly Weapons a shorter cooldown timer also.

Thanks again for the Bard songs!

Deadly is not worth pre-casting; a good artificer will throw one on zoning in and will cast the rest while moving with the party.

If you are waiting at the start of the quest for someone casting Deadly, you would be better off running without it.

That said I think all spells that are primarily cast out of combat should not have cooldowns.


On Spellsong - yes I think we all know that Vigor being AoE was a bug, but it was an example of a bug that made the game better. Please return it to AoE, and make it cost 2 songs if you feel that there is a balance issue.

Kobold_Ranger_Black
01-13-2014, 03:02 AM
Vigor is suppose to be aoe, the bug is now it is not. If you look up vigor you can see that its description talks of mass cure and how it is for the entire party. I brought this problem up within the first hour of the last update and they have said a fix already exists but will only be implemented in the next update.

Silken-Akira
01-13-2014, 05:43 AM
In Update 21, almost every Bard Song has been given its own cooldown timer. In addition, several single-target songs now have shorter cooldowns.

I had to admit that when it was said there will be additional love for the bard I was hopeful but skeptical at the same time. But thanks for not losing your attention for bard and trying to re-balance this class.

Krelar
01-13-2014, 09:48 AM
Vigor is suppose to be aoe, the bug is now it is not. If you look up vigor you can see that its description talks of mass cure and how it is for the entire party. I brought this problem up within the first hour of the last update and they have said a fix already exists but will only be implemented in the next update.

You're confusing spellsong vigor with sustaining song.

LrdSlvrhnd
01-14-2014, 05:59 PM
In Update 21, almost every Bard Song has been given its own cooldown timer. In addition, several single-target songs now have shorter cooldowns.

While this is truly awesome and my bard thanks you VERY much for it... she seriously misses the AoE Spellsong Vigor. Please reconsider re-flipping the switch that put it back (and added Sustaining Song) to single target, and change the description to match.

AzB
01-15-2014, 12:44 AM
Bards are not meant to get love but to give some. And if they give some they'll get some in return. A "pure" spellsinger hardly ever kills any monster, is unable to solo any quest but it's value increases with party size and quest difficulty. In "endgame" EE quests he's the capstone of the party, the party's most important member.

I'm disapointed they nerfed it because bards were rather rare in game and now it will be even more rare. DDO needs social builds because it's more fun to play with balanced and inter-dependant parties, and not parties which are merely an addition of big-DPS-high-saves-self-healing clones.

That's nice and all, but some of us like to play our bards more aggressively. If you want to stand back and "help" and consider that to be the end all of your existence, that's great. But please don't suggest that you are speaking for everyone.

I agree that balanced and inter-dependant parties are fun and that the game is supposed to be social. I always prefer to play in parties when I can. But sometimes, when I have time to play, there are no parties. So I'm supposed to log off and do something productive? The reality is that good or bad, the days when co-operative parties were common is gone. You are expected to have some degree of self sufficiency, and by my standards my toons should be able to solo as well as contribute in party.

The other side of the coin is that this is a video game that is derived from Dungeons and Dragons. A bard translates very poorly to a video game because most of the bard skills are based on interaction with other players and npcs. 99% of the interaction in DDO is hitting someone else over the head with something heavy and sharp. The subtleties don't exist.

So be prepared for the bard tin DDO to be significantly different than PnP bards. Open you mind a bit and see the possibilities rather than only seeing what you want to see.

Ailaesaedol
01-15-2014, 08:54 AM
In Update 21, almost every Bard Song has been given its own cooldown timer. In addition, several single-target songs now have shorter cooldowns.

That is awesome! Cant wiat, since you guys combined SS and Virt... *ugh* (why?! but anyways...) getting the songs out has been an absolute chore.

Any chance on having Sustaining Song influenced by either Sonic or Positive spell power? This would help with making scale to epic levels, even if it only counted half your perform ranks or half overall sonic spell power, it'd be a great addition.

Sephiroth_k2
01-23-2014, 11:10 AM
I think a good way to improve bard would be to allow them create a song from blank song.

let me explain, it would be a clicky that you can create by combining song.

For exemple combine
-spell song trance
-Inspire courage
-Ironskin Chant
-Inspire Recklessness

this clicky ability will cast the 4 song in same time to allow bard to buff without wasting player time and still doing the job. Of course this ability will expand the same amount of song as if you where casting the song one by one.

Missing_Minds
01-23-2014, 12:17 PM
I think a good way to improve bard would be to allow them create a song from blank song.

let me explain, it would be a clicky that you can create by combining song.

For exemple combine
-spell song trance
-Inspire courage
-Ironskin Chant
-Inspire Recklessness

this clicky ability will cast the 4 song in same time to allow bard to buff without wasting player time and still doing the job. Of course this ability will expand the same amount of song as if you where casting the song one by one.

Won't happen. Turbine doesn't want to open the door to bot programming, even in a limited fashion.

You are dependent upon 3rd party software in order to do this type of thing.

Other wise, I wish they would allow programmable aliases, such that we could call out hotbar and button to string together hot bar actions. This would be easier and much more flexable than a click button setup as that would also require additional GUI menus which the engine may or may not allow.

Engine development is separate from DDO or LOTRO, which is the reason why it took so bloody long for a new mouse pointer and the like to come about. (incase you didn't know.)

whereispowderedsilve
01-23-2014, 08:25 PM
In Update 21, almost every Bard Song has been given its own cooldown timer. In addition, several single-target songs now have shorter cooldowns.

Holy _____ I think this is working as intended I just tested this on Lama. O_O! I'm so happy! Wheeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!

katz
01-23-2014, 10:09 PM
Woot!