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Xianio
12-05-2013, 08:23 PM
Hey all,

I've been playing around now for about 2 months and have a level 12 Fighter. I'm very determined to keep it going all the way to level 20 sticking to the S&B theme. I've been doing some planning for the eventuality of EE content (which will take forever, but I'm okay with that).

Here are the defensive stats assuming powerful end gear:

115 PRR (45% DR)
135-140 AC
20% concealment
10% incorporeal (or reverse those two, I always forget which gets the 20%)
5% elusive
6% dodge
-------------
With a little bit of estimation: 70% net damage reduction from physical.
Then add another 12-14 DR (all types)

HP in the mid to high 900 range.
Elemental reduction between 40-55 depending on gear layout.

Improved Trip + Stunning Blow for CC with numerous + to tactics from Dreadnaught and Kensai

Offensively, you've got the full Kensai + fighter base damage bonuses.
I'm using Bswords (for First Blood) so I've also got all Two handed Weapon Fighting feats giving me 3 glancing blows doing 50% damage each.
I'm I also have all shield bashing feats + StD enhancement for 35% bashing (+ 20% more once I get Aegis)
Finally, the build centers around doublestrike, which once fully geared, rolls in at 54-79%
Also many many uses of Fighter Haste and Human Damage boost

Thoughts, critiques?

Pala-forged
12-05-2013, 08:34 PM
for EE - which you mentioned - the 14 DR is a joke.. Wouldn't care about it personally.

900 hp is okay.
Elemental reduction.. Eh, might help? For most things, evasion is much better.

What sort of DC will your tactics have?

Xianio
12-05-2013, 08:50 PM
14 is just on top of the 45% PRR is giving me. If the damage sits around 150 that 14 is equivalent to 18% more DR.

Yeah, evasion would be better, but it can't be done with a pure fighter (which is what I'm committed to :))

I'm not sure of the exact numbers on the tactics but it's a 28 point build with no past lives and 16 starting strength (although I have a +5 tome) and all points will go into it. With Kensai, LD and Combat Mastery (6?) I'm looking at +17 before strength bonuses. Unfortunately I don't know how high my strength will be (didn't both looking). I assume, maxed out from gear with another +8 from kensai. Maybe 56 or so?

If that's right (big if) that means 50-54?

unbongwah
12-05-2013, 09:26 PM
20% concealment
10% incorporeal (or reverse those two, I always forget which gets the 20%)
You've got it right: Blurry item is 20% concealment; Ghostly item is 10% incorporeality.

However, don't just throw out a bunch of numbers; plan exactly what gear you plan to slot. Oftentimes you'll find several items on your wishlist competing for the same slots. :(

Finally, the build centers around doublestrike, which once fully geared, rolls in at 54-79%
I presume this is the build you posted which is going for Kensei capstone; so it's 15% from capstone, 15% from EE First Blood, 15% from Legendary Shield Mastery, 25% from Block & Cut - what's your plan for final 9%? Draconic Ferocity + morale bonus?

Jasparion
12-05-2013, 09:28 PM
The problem with your build is that you will not really be contributing in any reasonable manner to the DPS of the group, meaning the mobs will be spending more time beating on you (I assume you keep aggro with Intim), meaning you probably need a dedicated healer to keep you up, meaning your group DPS falls even further.

As a 28 point build first life pure Fighter I would suggest that perhaps your goal should be to aim for EH or maybe TR a few times to build up your stats, build up your gear, change your mind on the class(es) you want to take.

You probably shouldnt be running the most difficult dungeons in the game. It seems a bit unfair on the other players.

Xianio
12-05-2013, 09:58 PM
I presume this is the build you posted which is going for Kensei capstone; so it's 15% from capstone, 15% from EE First Blood, 15% from Legendary Shield Mastery, 25% from Block & Cut - what's your plan for final 9%? Draconic Ferocity + morale bonus?

5% From Epic Two Handed Weapon Fighting
4% from Kensai Strike with no thought

The Draconic Ferocity was originally the plan but I dropped it for loot gen helm so I could max out either Protection or Deadly (I forget which off the top of my head).


However, don't just throw out a bunch of numbers; plan exactly what gear you plan to slot. Oftentimes you'll find several items on your wishlist competing for the same slots.

Didn't have the time (still don't) however we're looking at few things:
First Blood
Madstone Aegis (shield)
Black Dragon armor
Ring of Shadows
Epic Guardian Cloak
Goats Boots
The necklace that gives +15% melee altricity

That leaves the trinket, wrists, 1 ring, gloves, goggles, helm and belt. I can't remember these right now but I had some loot gen'd for gear that named content couldn't fill.

Once I get some time I'll write it all out but I'm currently building a marketing content calender for 2014 and this is what constitutes "breaks I shouldn't be taking" time. xD

PS: For the guy above me, I'll evaluate the damage numbers a little later but so far they're surprisingly good. Mostly because 80% doublestrike is pure insanity lol

maddmatt70
12-05-2013, 10:55 PM
No Self healing = lousy. A tank has to have self healing on epic elite it just makes for a much more powerful character. I cocoon and regenerate lay on hands myself all day long. The big problem with tanks is that they lack dps. They are just so painful and dreadful to level on epic elite due to their lack of dps.

Xianio
12-05-2013, 11:15 PM
Why couldn't I cocoon? Does it have a pre-req that I can't reach?

To give some dps perspective here;

First Blood (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:First_Blood_%28Level_27%29) hits pretty hard. Please keep in mind that has 54-79% doublestrike so that's LOTS of hitting power.

It's also getting 3 glancing blows with 50% damage per hit. Which adds up.

Then you've got a shield that can proc (55% per swing) 3 times per 4 swing cycle and Madstone Aegis (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Madstone_Aegis) hits -really- hard for a shield/off hand weapon. (shields get full strength bonus, full deadly bonus etc etc.)

Plus I'm looking forward to getting to hit 2 guys at once with the level 18 StD core enhancement.

The end result? Something that hits closer to a 2 weapon fighting toon with durability closer to that of a tank. Close to both but better than neither. :)

Pala-forged
12-06-2013, 12:59 AM
It's also getting 3 glancing blows with 50% damage per hit. Which adds up.

It has 3/4 of getting a glancing blow, if you stay still.

.75*.5 = .375

The way glancing blows work: Without THF, first and fourth attacks in a sequence (while not moving) get a glancing blow. With GTHF, first, third and fourth attacks (not moving) in a sequence will roll for glancing blows. So every 3 attacks out of 4 will throw glancing rolls, or 75%.

If I misunderstood what you meant, my bad.

LOOON375
12-06-2013, 01:22 AM
Why couldn't I cocoon?


Depending on a lot of different things, cocoon is nice, but might not be enough just by itself. On the toons that I run EE content that have cocoon twisted, they also have scroll healing ability, and I alternate the two.
I also have a monk thrower that uses both cocoon and healing spring, since it doesn't have scroll healing worthy UMD.

During the heat of a fight, cocoon. When you got a second or two, heal yourself up with scrolls to save what little spell point pool you have.

And cocoon requires spell points. there are numerous ways to get spell points.

You want to look for OVERALL survivability. Not just defensive stuff. You can build the toughest toon in the game, but if you can't do any meaningful damage, it will be a waste. You will eventually get killed before you can kill the mobs.

With what you are trying to do, you will do fine up to epic hard content. But you will probably hit a wall if you try to take it into EE.

Since it sounds like this if your first toon, just play the game and have fun. Learn as you go.

Good luck.

Xianio
12-06-2013, 06:43 AM
The way glancing blows work: Without THF, first and fourth attacks in a sequence (while not moving) get a glancing blow. With GTHF, first, third and fourth attacks (not moving) in a sequence will roll for glancing blows. So every 3 attacks out of 4 will throw glancing rolls, or 75%.

This isn't how glancing blows work. Glancing blows aren't a % chance of proc'ing. They're a guaranteed attack while standing still and going through your attack sequence. They occur on the 1st, 2nd and 4th attack (when you have gthf) and have a -5 penalty to hit and do 50% base damage with a reduced chance to do additional weapon effects (fire, cold etc).

There's no % chance of proc'ing them, each one is 50% damage and it occurs 3 times per attack sequence; adding the equavalent of another attack and a halves worth of base damage.


since it doesn't have scroll healing worthy UMD.

What's the req on those?

Pala-forged
12-06-2013, 07:17 AM
3/4 attacks are glancing blows, if you aren't moving and have GTHF. Fact. 1st, 3rd and 4th attacks, to be precise. (If it helps you understand my point, let 1 be a glancing blow, 0 be no glancing. 1011 - You can repeat it indefinitely, then count how many 1's there are and put it over the total rolls. In this case, it's 1+1+1=3 over 1+1+1+1=4. Or, 3/4.)

3/4 when converted to a decimal is .75 Or 75%. Statistically, 75% of your attacks are glancing - that doesn't mean each attack has a roll for it, but over 100 attacks, 75 will be glancing blows. If you'll disagree with that, I don't know what to say.

Now, .75*.5 = .375. That was the increase of dps compared to not having it. Wasn't exactly relevant to anything, but I like to have the numbers when I post things.

However, I wasn't sure if you knew how they worked - and my explanation was slightly confusing, though I blame it on medication.

By the quoted line, "It's also getting 3 glancing blows with 50% damage per hit. Which adds up.", I misunderstood what you meant; I thought you meant each attack would have 3 glancing blows.

Edit: Scroll healing UMD is 39 no fail. Arti *may* reduce it, but that's been bugged for me. Not too hard to reach with some sacrifices. And a bunny hat.

kned225
12-06-2013, 07:38 AM
Every day seems to bring more "make my tank useful in EEs" threads. Every build brings out numbers that seem impressive on paper, but equal very little in EEs.

Bottom line, as others have said is....you're gonna get hit often and hard and wont have the dps to make up for it, or the healing ability to recover from it

There needs to be a game design change before these kind of builds will ever be viable in EEs. Tin cans need a SERIOUS boost in their damage mitigation abilities and a way to effectively hold threat while other players are doing thousands of damage

taurean430
12-06-2013, 08:34 AM
Pure S&B Fighter - Could this survive Epic Elite?

Sadly no.

You are building for physical damage mitigation. Even with the numbers you've posted, you will need to be tethered to a dedicated healer type to survive.

You are relying on elemental absorption to survive AOE, this will not work. Evasion is far more important. And must have a high reflex save to make evasion work.

You have almost no way to self heal. That directly translates to others being responsible for you. This will not help your relations with other players that run EE's frequently.

You have no significant ranged option. This is self explanatory.

You are relying on S&B dps and intim to hold aggro. This will only work in a boss fight situation (raid) and will require the entire raid party to stand around for 2 mins to allow you to build up some threat. Almost no one will do that.

You will lose aggro immediately to *any* other toon that attacks the same mob. This equates to you chasing mobs most of the time. Which means even less dps.


My best advice is to stick to EH with that type of build. EE's will prove to be very frustrating for you. Turbine supposedly made all of these game mechanic changes to help fighters. This is a fail. Not only have they killed ac/evasion builds of before that were quite effective they have also rendered turtle builds to very, very limited use in difficult content. Until the devs are willing to concede that they've failed in this area and try again, we are stuck with this.

The only place that I've seen tank builds do particularly well considering all epic content is in EH Fall of Truth. That's it. They can't survive EE and become a huge resource drain for everyone else.

Xianio
12-06-2013, 04:12 PM
I've been sneaking some time into my lunch/the odd break today to do some math on damage output.

I compared the Cetus build (first page - I didn't dig deeper for edits to it) with my build. I held some constants (Deadly 11, no Epic Destiny used) and I was happily surprised with the results.

After my companies (early) holiday party this evening I'll post the math but the 1 full combat animation (4 attacks + glancing) the damage played out like this:

Average damage (crits, glancing, shield procs all included)

Cetus: 1406 average in 4 hits.
Xianio: 1142 average in 4 hits.

ie: My "tank" build deals 81% of Cetus' damage (before Epic Destinies are applied)

Pretty cool, math to come.
edit: The primary reason for my build being even close was due to the 54-79% doublestrike vs Cetus' 18%.

Wipey
12-06-2013, 04:57 PM
Math never helps solve problems, it only further complicates them.
But if you dare to enter the world of such dark sorcery, don't forget to include Cetus's constant = over 9000 in your calculations.

bsquishwizzy
12-06-2013, 05:18 PM
Hey all,

I've been playing around now for about 2 months and have a level 12 Fighter. I'm very determined to keep it going all the way to level 20 sticking to the S&B theme. I've been doing some planning for the eventuality of EE content (which will take forever, but I'm okay with that).

Here are the defensive stats assuming powerful end gear:

115 PRR (45% DR)
135-140 AC
20% concealment
10% incorporeal (or reverse those two, I always forget which gets the 20%)
5% elusive
6% dodge
-------------
With a little bit of estimation: 70% net damage reduction from physical.
Then add another 12-14 DR (all types)

HP in the mid to high 900 range.
Elemental reduction between 40-55 depending on gear layout.

Improved Trip + Stunning Blow for CC with numerous + to tactics from Dreadnaught and Kensai

Offensively, you've got the full Kensai + fighter base damage bonuses.
I'm using Bswords (for First Blood) so I've also got all Two handed Weapon Fighting feats giving me 3 glancing blows doing 50% damage each.
I'm I also have all shield bashing feats + StD enhancement for 35% bashing (+ 20% more once I get Aegis)
Finally, the build centers around doublestrike, which once fully geared, rolls in at 54-79%
Also many many uses of Fighter Haste and Human Damage boost

Thoughts, critiques?

I know I’m gonna get flak for this, but your build is OK for EE…if it were a paladin. Otherwise, you’re going to get mauled, unable to self-heal, and not be able to put out enough DPS to smack down the mobs before they kill you.

I have a pally with less DR, AC, and PRR than what you mentioned, and he does OK in EE; not spectacular, but OK. This is mainly because he can self-heal, backup heal, and rez as well as put out minor DPS, and I can flip into Glorious Stand if I need to. The self-healing covers a lot.

If you are in a group with a dedicated healer (I tend to PUG most content) I think you’ll be fine. If you solo? Not sure how well your build will perform.

The CC may or may not work on the mobs in EE. I would assume they don’t.

I think the double-strike is probably the best feature you’ve got going there, though. And the comment atbout 14 DR being nothing? I think 14 DR is actually pretty good for what you got going there.

Zoda
12-06-2013, 06:00 PM
Pure S&B human fighter is one of my all time favorite builds, I used to solo all kinds of E/Es on mine before epic Gianthold aired (epic high road, some sands stuff, and most of my PDK favor I gathered solo as well), but times have changed a lot since then, a well built, played and equipped s&b character can still solo most of the e/e content, and contribute a lot in groups, but it is not nearly as appealing as it once was to some people (and I also doubt that s&b is the best way to go if you are building a tank these days, which saddens me a lot... Shadow Veil + high dodge with an alrighty prr is just better, and frees up both hands for dps). I posted my latest approach on a s&b build a few days ago in these sub forums, you can check it out if you change your mind about multiclassing...or just out of curiosity :). All in all, I doubt that pure fighter can still be good for e/e content, your saves are just not good enough, your dps is no longer great compared to other options, and you don't get evasion, hell, even Cetus struggled after the expansion came out before he finally managed to get his level split/alignment right on the 79th lesser reincarnation (lol).

A few advices though, regardless off your class split:
- use Duregar Waraxe instead of First Blood, it has more dps (plus headman's chop in LD), and also makes it easier to setup the rest of your gear, speaking of DPS - LD is probably your only choice if you wanna do reasonably well
- make at least one greensteel displacement clicky (it is fairly cheap, and once you have one you'll want more, simple as that), it is by far the best way to mitigate incoming damage
- if you are a fleshie, gather the favor for Silver Flame healing potions, if you don't have the UMD for heal scrolls - and if you can't slot the healing amp on your gear (switching to hamp offhander drops your stance, so it's not an option), they are absolutely mandatory in my opinion, even if you do twist coccoon, the save debuff is fairly irrelevant on e/e - on a pure fighter the only saves you might make are fort saves anyway
- test your shield bash on a dummy or something, it used to be buggy as hell, might not fully stack up to 55%, or you might need to interrupt your attack pattern with a tactical move to make it work properly - in which case you lose a lot of attacks on which you can proc it, since it can't proc on cleaves, etc - might not worth it to go for high shield bash value - alchemical crafted shield is a great overall choice, if the extra bash chance from Aegis doesn't work (keep an eye out for stuff like two bashes in a row, if you still can't bash twice in a row, it is pretty bad already - it used to be like that)

Nightmanis
12-06-2013, 08:34 PM
A few advices though, regardless off your class split:
- use Duregar Waraxe instead of First Blood, it has more dps (plus headman's chop in LD), and also makes it easier to setup the rest of your gear, speaking of DPS - LD is probably your only choice if you wanna do reasonably well
- make at least one greensteel displacement clicky (it is fairly cheap, and once you have one you'll want more, simple as that), it is by far the best way to mitigate incoming damage
- if you are a fleshie, gather the favor for Silver Flame healing potions, if you don't have the UMD for heal scrolls - and if you can't slot the healing amp on your gear (switching to hamp offhander drops your stance, so it's not an option), they are absolutely mandatory in my opinion, even if you do twist coccoon, the save debuff is fairly irrelevant on e/e - on a pure fighter the only saves you might make are fort saves anyway
- test your shield bash on a dummy or something, it used to be buggy as hell, might not fully stack up to 55%, or you might need to interrupt your attack pattern with a tactical move to make it work properly - in which case you lose a lot of attacks on which you can proc it, since it can't proc on cleaves, etc - might not worth it to go for high shield bash value - alchemical crafted shield is a great overall choice, if the extra bash chance from Aegis doesn't work (keep an eye out for stuff like two bashes in a row, if you still can't bash twice in a row, it is pretty bad already - it used to be like that)

^^ Pretty much this. Minus the "I'm always going to use a Bastard, because Die Zoda."

Also, you're going to need to plan all your gear. Currently the only way to get +6 to tactics from an item is the Adamantine cloak of the Bear. That's way better than the Guardian's cloak anyway, and the Mabar Cloak is better than that. The Epic Elite Jeweled cloak is also a good option, and best used as a swap in in heavy caster enviroments.

A good full setup that I would suggest (if we go with what you suggested vs what I think will be better) it'll look something like this:

Helm: Epic Elite Helm of the Black Dragon, +3 Ins Str
Armour: Flawless Black Dragonplate armour
Cloak: Mabar Cloak/EE Jeweled Cloak/Adamantine cloak of the Bear
Shield: Madstone Aegis/Alchemical Triple Fire Tower Shield (Seeker 10, +2 Alche str, No one really cares about tier 3)
Weapon: First Blood (Or the Duergar Axe, your choice)
Bracers: Greater Convalescent bracers (if using the axe, Skirmisher's Bracer's)
Ring 1: Dun'Robar ring, flavour of your choice
Ring 2: Defense: Guardian's ring, Offense: Skirmisher's, Survival: Ring of Shadows
Necklace: EE Jorgundal's Collar (that necklace you were talking about) Good alternative is to take the feat that does the same thing, and use a deadly item here.
Belt: I like the Guardian's belt, though a Str +10 HP +50 belt like Cetus has would be the most optimal.
Boots: Goatskins. Alternative is actually to have GS Min2 HP here.

The Trinket is now the really fun part. In some EE quests (mostly seems to be in Wheloon and the Stormhorns) you can actually pull lootgen trinkets. I have a Seeker 10 one, and a Wise 10 of Resistance 10 I use on my rogue. But there are so many other good options that anything would be ok. I'd use a Planar trinket for any stat you don't have (ins con +3 comes to mind)

TheLegendOfAra
12-07-2013, 12:53 AM
- use Duregar Waraxe instead of First Blood, it has more dps (plus headman's chop in LD), and also makes it easier to setup the rest of your gear, speaking of DPS - LD is probably your only choice if you wanna do reasonably well)
Zoda only says this because he's like 1 of 5 people on argo who have actually got one of these.

Xianio
12-07-2013, 11:22 AM
- use Duregar Waraxe instead of First Blood, it has more dps (plus headman's chop in LD), and also makes it easier to setup the rest of your gear, speaking of DPS - LD is probably your only choice if you wanna do reasonably well
LD is my only real choice. I will probably twist into Fury for Sense Weakness but that's really it. However the Duregar Waraxe really is a drop in DPS. While putting out more "raw" power the only way my build keeps up is through doublestrike.



- make at least one greensteel displacement clicky (it is fairly cheap, and once you have one you'll want more, simple as that), it is by far the best way to mitigate incoming damage
Already the plan.



- if you are a fleshie, gather the favor for Silver Flame healing potions, if you don't have the UMD for heal scrolls + (switching to hamp offhander drops your stance, so it's not an option),
I'm cross classing UMD, I don't know if I'll end up with enough. + No it doesn't. You can switch shields without breaking StD stance. My plan was to use Wall of Wood as a swap in for healing. :)



- test your shield bash on a dummy or something, it used to be buggy as hell, might not fully stack up to 55%
This works now. Already tried and tested to make sure that the old shield bashing mechanic was fixed.


You will lose aggro immediately to *any* other toon that attacks the same mob. This equates to you chasing mobs most of the time. Which means even less dps.
With a 50% increase to my hate gen from stance and 1142 being my "1 round of combat damage" I don't think it will be to much of an issue. While possible, I don't think that most can easily compete with 1713 effective damage for hate gen. - Prior to Epic Destiny material.

--------------------------------
Maths, cuz I promised thems:

Xianio/Cetus




11 Deadly
11 Deadly


26 Strength (62)
57 Strength (86 w2hand)


8 enhance
10 enhance


5 pow.at
10 pow.at


4 Fighter
2 Fighter


4 Avg. Medi bonus (Kensai)
4 Avg. Medi bonus (Kensai)


4 Kensai
6 Kensai


15 av. weapon damage
17.5 av. weapon damage


0 elemental
7 red slot


65 before crits
114.5 before crits


With Crits: 118.05
With Crits: 277.65


With Doublestrike: 225.5 x 1.665 = 196.55
With Doublestrike: 390.6 x 1.18 = 327.62


Glancing blows50%: 31
Glancing blows60%: 60


Shield: 35.79 95.45 damage base w crit * 3/4 attacks that can proc it * 55% proc chance
No shield


Total: 263.34
Total: 387.62


Or, an Xianio having 70% of Cetus' damage. That said, I probably did some math wrong so please check it out. The table format on this is HORRIBLE and I was doing this over 8 hours while at work. :P I probably missed something/screwed something up.

Xianio crit formula 17-18x2 19-20x3 / Bloodletter adds + 52 or 67.5 Formula: (Base+Seeker*Crit*%chance of critting) + Bloodletter. Then add them together plus the base for average damage with crit
Cetus crit formula 13-18x3 19-20x4 / elemental doesn't count Formla: same as above minus bloodletter

Edit'd to correct for some math failures (mostly in the crit area): End result is still something that can hold argo but 30% damage lost is still pretty notable. On the positive side, with regards to physical damage sources: Xianio is significantly tougher than Cetus. Elemental damage is the real concern and Cetus has this much better.

Well, I just did the math with Nightmare + Prowess Trinket the result was another 15 damage, not including successful mind thrusts as I don't know how often they would. This also increases my non-crit damage by a bunch and gives moves the total PRR from 115 to 130 - the cost from the trinket was probably 6 ac though. Hard calls all around.
- Makes the build do 72% of Cetus' damage.

Blerg, another Edit: Added in the Red Slot that I missed on the Nightmare originally and mind thrust being successful. The end result was a HUGE damage increase to 326.75 or 84% of Cetus' damage. The trouble of course being that Mind Thrust (from my understanding) NEVER works in EE content. When it doesn't work it's only - 75%

Seems that First Blood is just subpar. Oh well! I already own Nightmare so that's a plus for me :D

maddmatt70
12-08-2013, 11:33 AM
Why couldn't I cocoon? Does it have a pre-req that I can't reach?

To give some dps perspective here;

First Blood (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:First_Blood_%28Level_27%29) hits pretty hard. Please keep in mind that has 54-79% doublestrike so that's LOTS of hitting power.

It's also getting 3 glancing blows with 50% damage per hit. Which adds up.

Then you've got a shield that can proc (55% per swing) 3 times per 4 swing cycle and Madstone Aegis (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Madstone_Aegis) hits -really- hard for a shield/off hand weapon. (shields get full strength bonus, full deadly bonus etc etc.)

Plus I'm looking forward to getting to hit 2 guys at once with the level 18 StD core enhancement.

The end result? Something that hits closer to a 2 weapon fighting toon with durability closer to that of a tank. Close to both but better than neither. :)

I have a two weapon fighting 8 ranger 6 monk 6 paladin I leveled first as more of a tank build and second version was less tanky, but able to tank. I can self heal and even heal the group in a limited fashion with the unyielding mass lay on hands. The best asset I have is i get aggro on as many mobs as I can and reduce the damage others in the group take. I can do a lot of quests with other melee without a healer. The real problem with the character even the second version is I can not kill things extremely fast which can mean longer completion times on quests. You will find that your dps will be abysmal.

You will not be able to do what my two weapon fighting character can do to reduce the damage taken in the party because my cocoon can hit more then yours (my positive spell power and amp will almost certainly be much greater), I have lay on hands regenerating so my self healing is so much greater. I also take a lot less damage because I have no save lower then 50 and my reflex save is in the 60s with evasion.

Xianio
12-08-2013, 12:15 PM
I have a two weapon fighting 8 ranger 6 monk 6 paladin I leveled first as more of a tank build and second version was less tanky, but able to tank. I can self heal and even heal the group in a limited fashion with the unyielding mass lay on hands. The best asset I have is i get aggro on as many mobs as I can and reduce the damage others in the group take. I can do a lot of quests with other melee without a healer. The real problem with the character even the second version is I can not kill things extremely fast which can mean longer completion times on quests. You will find that your dps will be abysmal.

You will not be able to do what my two weapon fighting character can do to reduce the damage taken in the party because my cocoon can hit more then yours (my positive spell power and amp will almost certainly be much greater), I have lay on hands regenerating so my self healing is so much greater. I also take a lot less damage because I have no save lower then 50 and my reflex save is in the 60s with evasion.

This unfortunately doesn't actually tell me a lot. There's a lot of generic terms here that don't mean much to me. Perhaps you could lay out/link me to your build? I'd love to do a side-by-side comparison; at least for DPS.

I've established that at least in EH I will only do 15% less damage than Cetus' build (ED not included, which could change things). I don't have a 2 weapon comparison yet but if you're willing to provide yours it may be worth considering.

I don't know how much amp you have. Assuming they stack, I have access to 40% from my shield slot and human race enhancements. This is in addition to equipment 114 Healing Spell Power. I don't know if I'll need more but I could always grab Purple Dragon Gauntlets for another 30%, raising me to 70%.

Now, obviously evasion/reflex saves my toon lacks but like I said, I'm planning to have anywhere around 45-55 flat reduction with potentially more from absorption (as needed). I have no idea how much damage your "average" spell does but this is definitely the builds biggest weakness.

-- That said, I'm not trying to show that pure Fighter is better than Anything/Paladin/Monk: Everyone knows that slapping pally and monk on a build = instant power. It's just a question of being strong enough despite lacking the P2W/cheeseball class combo. ;)

maddmatt70
12-08-2013, 12:47 PM
This unfortunately doesn't actually tell me a lot. There's a lot of generic terms here that don't mean much to me. Perhaps you could lay out/link me to your build? I'd love to do a side-by-side comparison; at least for DPS.

I've established that at least in EH I will only do 15% less damage than Cetus' build (ED not included, which could change things). I don't have a 2 weapon comparison yet but if you're willing to provide yours it may be worth considering.

I don't know how much amp you have. Assuming they stack, I have access to 40% from my shield slot and human race enhancements. This is in addition to equipment 114 Healing Spell Power. I don't know if I'll need more but I could always grab Purple Dragon Gauntlets for another 30%, raising me to 70%.

Now, obviously evasion/reflex saves my toon lacks but like I said, I'm planning to have anywhere around 45-55 flat reduction with potentially more from absorption (as needed). I have no idea how much damage your "average" spell does but this is definitely the builds biggest weakness.

-- That said, I'm not trying to show that pure Fighter is better than Anything/Paladin/Monk: Everyone knows that slapping pally and monk on a build = instant power. It's just a question of being strong enough despite lacking the P2W/cheeseball class combo. ;)

My current positive spell power at level 24 is 142 (have done all ee sagas except stormhorns cant get in until level 25)which is not really high, but will be higher because not wearing item. I have 2 pally past lives, 30 and 20 amp items, vigor from of life from paladin for 10%, 15% from shintao enhancements.

To be clear. The problem with a tank on ee is two fold: first I dispute your numbers on DPS you will not contribute that much offensively, second is the utility a tank can provide can not overcome this dps deficiency.

I do not appreciate your personal slander. You can play any gimp you want on ee and complete quests, but the playerbase gravitates toward optimum characters. That is the perspective of me and a lot of the posters in this thread. A tank in general is not optimum on epic elite. This tank build is also flawed as pure fighter tank in regards to not being close to optimum tank type character for that matter.

Xianio
12-08-2013, 01:40 PM
My current positive spell power at level 24 is 142 (have done all ee sagas except stormhorns cant get in until level 25)which is not really high, but will be higher because not wearing item. I have 2 pally past lives, 30 and 20 amp items, vigor from of life from paladin for 10%, 15% from shintao enhancements.

So, 75% + 142? I don't know what EE sagas do for positive spell power. I'll have to look that up. Can a Fighter get these too? edit: Having looked these up I don't know what this has to do with spell power. Was the purpose of the EE Sagas to establish credibility? I don't understand.



To be clear. The problem with a tank on ee is two fold: first I dispute your numbers on DPS you will not contribute that much offensively, second is the utility a tank can provide can not overcome this dps deficiency.

You haven't actually disputed my numbers though. You've just said "nope" and left it at that. Until you actually take the time to point out the flaws (the math is right there) your eyes wide shut approach doesn't interest me.


You can play any gimp you want on ee and complete quests, but the playerbase gravitates toward optimum characters. That is the perspective of me and a lot of the posters in this thread. A tank in general is not optimum on epic elite. This tank build is also flawed as pure fighter tank in regards to not being close to optimum tank type character for that matter.

Two primary things being said here: 1st that players gravitate to optimal characters, which is fine. The question never was "is this better than X." The question was "will this survive EE content." Please note the difference. It is critical to your responses being valued.

2nd: Your evaluation of my build relies upon a stereotype to which you have labeled me. You have defined it "as a tank" and thus applied your "tank don't work" paradigm without any interaction with the details of what I ask. In other words, you're working from nearly no hard information, rather only generalizations.

I welcome you refuting the original question, but currently you're being quite lazy about it. If you think my numbers are wrong, show me they're wrong. Otherwise I'll simply disregard you. Why would you expect anything else? If you expect me to respect your opinion, then I'm afraid you're going to have to give me the most minor amount of respect in return.



I do not appreciate your personal slander.


To disagree with you is now slander? Or to acknowledge that Paladin/Monk + Melee is the optimum of power (thus 'chessing' by definition) is slander? I do not know what has caused you to take personal offense to my build but if you it is making you upset, I suggest you simply ignore this thread.

The only other alternative is that you're trying to sound clever. However, if this is the case, you should be sure to use terms that you know. Slander refers to spoken defamation. The word you were looking for was libel, ie: written defamation.

Not that I did either, but that's neither here nor there, I suspect.

maddmatt70
12-08-2013, 02:19 PM
After your build has met wide acclaim and success in epic elite I expect to see your posts about how great this character build works on epic elite. Can we count on that? Anything less after this crowing that you do would be a disappointment.

Xianio
12-08-2013, 02:36 PM
Look, if you don't want to be bothered to go over the clearly laid out information that's up to you.

The only thing I have EVER asked of YOU is to link me to your build so I could compare it. Everything else, you've brought into this thread. Perhaps you're in a grumpy mood, perhaps you expected me to bow and kiss your toes, I don't know. Either way, you're the one that brought an attitude into this thread, not the other way around.

I have very clearly stated, several times now, that this will NOT be better than most Monk/Pally + Melee build. Never was that the intent, nor was it claimed. I asked if this would work and when you gave me generic "catch-all" answers I told you very clearly that you didn't actually tell me almost anything.

I have done nothing but hold you to an adult standard during a conversation. It seems that was a mistake.

Inoukchuk
12-08-2013, 03:12 PM
LD is my only real choice. I will probably twist into Fury for Sense Weakness but that's really it. However the Duregar Waraxe really is a drop in DPS. While putting out more "raw" power the only way my build keeps up is through doublestrike.


Already the plan.


I'm cross classing UMD, I don't know if I'll end up with enough. + No it doesn't. You can switch shields without breaking StD stance. My plan was to use Wall of Wood as a swap in for healing. :)


This works now. Already tried and tested to make sure that the old shield bashing mechanic was fixed.


With a 50% increase to my hate gen from stance and 1142 being my "1 round of combat damage" I don't think it will be to much of an issue. While possible, I don't think that most can easily compete with 1713 effective damage for hate gen. - Prior to Epic Destiny material.

--------------------------------
Maths, cuz I promised thems:

Xianio/Cetus




11 Deadly
11 Deadly


26 Strength (62)
57 Strength (86 w2hand)


8 enhance
10 enhance


5 pow.at
10 pow.at


4 Fighter
2 Fighter


4 Avg. Medi bonus (Kensai)
4 Avg. Medi bonus (Kensai)


4 Kensai
6 Kensai


15 av. weapon damage
17.5 av. weapon damage


0 elemental
7 red slot


65 before crits
114.5 before crits


With Crits: 118.05
With Crits: 277.65


With Doublestrike: 225.5 x 1.665 = 196.55
With Doublestrike: 390.6 x 1.18 = 327.62


Glancing blows50%: 31
Glancing blows60%: 60


Shield: 35.79 95.45 damage base w crit * 3/4 attacks that can proc it * 55% proc chance
No shield


Total: 263.34
Total: 387.62


Or, an Xianio having 70% of Cetus' damage. That said, I probably did some math wrong so please check it out. The table format on this is HORRIBLE and I was doing this over 8 hours while at work. :P I probably missed something/screwed something up.

Xianio crit formula 17-18x2 19-20x3 / Bloodletter adds + 52 or 67.5 Formula: (Base+Seeker*Crit*%chance of critting) + Bloodletter. Then add them together plus the base for average damage with crit
Cetus crit formula 13-18x3 19-20x4 / elemental doesn't count Formla: same as above minus bloodletter

Edit'd to correct for some math failures (mostly in the crit area): End result is still something that can hold argo but 30% damage lost is still pretty notable. On the positive side, with regards to physical damage sources: Xianio is significantly tougher than Cetus. Elemental damage is the real concern and Cetus has this much better.

Well, I just did the math with Nightmare + Prowess Trinket the result was another 15 damage, not including successful mind thrusts as I don't know how often they would. This also increases my non-crit damage by a bunch and gives moves the total PRR from 115 to 130 - the cost from the trinket was probably 6 ac though. Hard calls all around.
- Makes the build do 72% of Cetus' damage.

Blerg, another Edit: Added in the Red Slot that I missed on the Nightmare originally and mind thrust being successful. The end result was a HUGE damage increase to 326.75 or 84% of Cetus' damage. The trouble of course being that Mind Thrust (from my understanding) NEVER works in EE content. When it doesn't work it's only - 75%

Seems that First Blood is just subpar. Oh well! I already own Nightmare so that's a plus for me :D


I'd encourage you to run the #'s on duergar, I think you'll find they are as good or better.

As has been mentioned the lack of self heals + laughable saves and no evasion will make EE hard, and really only possible with a dedicated healer (hopefully you have guildies/friends that play healers). But then, a good healer (or 2) is great in any quest, especially against tougher bosses. We ran EE Sable last night and the boss does like 500 AoE force burst + 200ish melee, so 1 sweep can lay out the whole party (or melee portion of it) if your health isn't topped up.

Xianio
12-08-2013, 04:12 PM
I'd encourage you to run the #'s on duergar, I think you'll find they are as good or better.


Final D.axe numbers roll in at 299.29 (lets call it 300 even). So definitely better than First Blood AND marginally (9 points of damage) better than Nightmare in EE when Mind Thrust doesn't work. However, for 9 points of additional damage you're giving up 15 PRR, 2 AB and a significant decrease in normal hit damage. ie: You're much more reliant on critical hits.

Some caveats:
I didn't use LD but I DID give headmans chop because otherwise the numbers would have been affected a very great deal.
By going D.axe it would open up a Trinket slot (most likely for more AC) and potentially a ring slot as +10 stunning would be covered by the axe.
I also assumed that you'd be getting 9% doublestrike from another source, if not these numbers are significantly incorrect (ring/writs whatever)

I definitely see pro's for using the D.axe and can see why you like it. It would definitely be worth considering for EE.



As has been mentioned the lack of self heals + laughable saves and no evasion will make EE hard, and really only possible with a dedicated healer (hopefully you have guildies/friends that play healers). But then, a good healer (or 2) is great in any quest, especially against tougher bosses. We ran EE Sable last night and the boss does like 500 AoE force burst + 200ish melee, so 1 sweep can lay out the whole party (or melee portion of it) if your health isn't topped up.

For sure for sure - I'm also assuming that cocoon couldn't be enough to make up for this.

Cetus
12-08-2013, 04:38 PM
LD is my only real choice. I will probably twist into Fury for Sense Weakness but that's really it. However the Duregar Waraxe really is a drop in DPS. While putting out more "raw" power the only way my build keeps up is through doublestrike.


Already the plan.


I'm cross classing UMD, I don't know if I'll end up with enough. + No it doesn't. You can switch shields without breaking StD stance. My plan was to use Wall of Wood as a swap in for healing. :)


This works now. Already tried and tested to make sure that the old shield bashing mechanic was fixed.


With a 50% increase to my hate gen from stance and 1142 being my "1 round of combat damage" I don't think it will be to much of an issue. While possible, I don't think that most can easily compete with 1713 effective damage for hate gen. - Prior to Epic Destiny material.

--------------------------------
Maths, cuz I promised thems:

Xianio/Cetus




11 Deadly
11 Deadly


26 Strength (62)
57 Strength (86 w2hand)


8 enhance
10 enhance


5 pow.at
10 pow.at


4 Fighter
2 Fighter


4 Avg. Medi bonus (Kensai)
4 Avg. Medi bonus (Kensai)


4 Kensai
6 Kensai


15 av. weapon damage
17.5 av. weapon damage


0 elemental
7 red slot


65 before crits
114.5 before crits


With Crits: 118.05
With Crits: 277.65


With Doublestrike: 225.5 x 1.665 = 196.55
With Doublestrike: 390.6 x 1.18 = 327.62


Glancing blows50%: 31
Glancing blows60%: 60


Shield: 35.79 95.45 damage base w crit * 3/4 attacks that can proc it * 55% proc chance
No shield


Total: 263.34
Total: 387.62


Or, an Xianio having 70% of Cetus' damage. That said, I probably did some math wrong so please check it out. The table format on this is HORRIBLE and I was doing this over 8 hours while at work. :P I probably missed something/screwed something up.

Xianio crit formula 17-18x2 19-20x3 / Bloodletter adds + 52 or 67.5 Formula: (Base+Seeker*Crit*%chance of critting) + Bloodletter. Then add them together plus the base for average damage with crit
Cetus crit formula 13-18x3 19-20x4 / elemental doesn't count Formla: same as above minus bloodletter

Edit'd to correct for some math failures (mostly in the crit area): End result is still something that can hold argo but 30% damage lost is still pretty notable. On the positive side, with regards to physical damage sources: Xianio is significantly tougher than Cetus. Elemental damage is the real concern and Cetus has this much better.

Well, I just did the math with Nightmare + Prowess Trinket the result was another 15 damage, not including successful mind thrusts as I don't know how often they would. This also increases my non-crit damage by a bunch and gives moves the total PRR from 115 to 130 - the cost from the trinket was probably 6 ac though. Hard calls all around.
- Makes the build do 72% of Cetus' damage.

Blerg, another Edit: Added in the Red Slot that I missed on the Nightmare originally and mind thrust being successful. The end result was a HUGE damage increase to 326.75 or 84% of Cetus' damage. The trouble of course being that Mind Thrust (from my understanding) NEVER works in EE content. When it doesn't work it's only - 75%

Seems that First Blood is just subpar. Oh well! I already own Nightmare so that's a plus for me :D

This is so misleading its not even funny

I don't have much desire to dissect this entire post, but let it suffice to say that you're missing the following perks my character has over the one you outlined, I don't know what you're doing with your dude or what destinies you are taking etc... but here's my profile:

Earth Stance monk + devastating critical + overwhelming critical = Esos: 13-18 x3 | 19-20 x6

Iron Fist attack every 3 seconds: +3 W = additional 6d6 base weapon damage + 12-20 profile with 12-18 x4 | 19-20 x7

Ninja Poison DOT: Every 3 Seconds ticks anywhere between like 100 and 145 or so (about an extra 40 dps roughly)

Manyshot Capability

My Strength is (on the bladeforged version that I've yet to post) an 80 = +35 strength modifier.

Warforged PA + 6 to damage

Your Doublestrikes advantage disappears on cleaves

Weapon Attachment: + 1d6 extra damage about 33% of the time (between tenser scroll casts)

50% glancing blow damage (no GTHF on bladeforged version)

Sense weakness makes up for loss of GTHF due to high fortification (otherwise, had brace for impact twisted in)

High Saves + 620+ per reconstruct + evasion + shadow fade + 16%/27% blitz dodge + displacement = Alive - so more dps over being dead.

Also, as I play - I cycle my fist of iron with the other two earth monk attacks - each of which add 8 and 12 damage respectively. (BTW, if you really want to get accurate you should incorporate the affect that my doublestrike has on these monk attacks too).

I guess I can include the +3 monk past life damage, the extra 3% doublestrike I have from my martial past life currently, and the 77 stunning blow dc / 82 trip DC with bladesmark docent on versus your nonexistant tactics that would further improve my damage when trash is concerned.

Oh, I also forgot to mention the sneak attack damage you didn't count either that I acquire from the monk tree + EE back stabbers gloves + 3 Rogue past live (which also procs on manyshots, so remember that one too).

Anything else?

Uhh...well the esos is a +10 weapon, first blood is a +8...so 2 there.

I guess if you use nightmares they're +8's too but with the conflux set theyre +12's, although then u lose the litany I have one so its like +11...but then you need to see if the loss of the profane str keeps you even or not...etc.

Oh - here's another one you forgot:

Dance of Flowers twist - an extra 3d6 base damage just for being centered...

I'm sure I missed more stuff, but there ya have it.

Xianio
12-08-2013, 05:19 PM
Of course there's a ton missing, much the same way I didn't count cleaves for both builds or the 3[W] damage on Cut and Block.

Nor did I count any ED material (something I've said in every post). I also stated that I was only using your first page build - ONLY.
I didn't add in the Earth stance because you weren't in earth stance. I didn't add in dev. crit because you didn't say which ED you were using.
I did include your glancing blows (at 60% no less as that's your first page build... again already said this a few times)
Enhancement is already counted.

You also seem to be going into defenses. Something we're not comparing. We could if you wanted but the answer to that is extremely obvious (so much so that I've said it outright in every post).

I didn't realize dance of flowers worked like that. Definitely worth adding.

So, yeah, you did miss a lot. Most of it being what I wrote down to give context. :)


I guess I can include the +3 monk past life damage, the extra 3% doublestrike I have from my martial past life currently, and the 77 stunning blow dc / 82 trip DC with bladesmark docent on versus your nonexistant tactics that would further improve my damage when trash is concerned.
Where's this coming from?

If we want to go into counting past lives (I mean, it's just a build anyone can use it if they want) - then you can put tactics for stunning blow up to approx. 70. Being Human is just because this is F2P, you could always drop the cash to make it Blademarked, which COULD give you 75 trip (or 79 but I suspect you wouldn't really care by that point).

Also, Manyshot CAN be added to this build - but it's first life without a +5 to tome of dex. Could easily fit this in without any trouble once you have it.

So yes, more things definitely needed to be added to flush out the DPS properly. I don't think I'll update the post, few will scroll up to re-read it.

I don't know how many sneak attack die get added from the Ninja levels (as the others could be held constant, given that EE gloves are still an open slot and past lives are universal).

The real difficulty though is the Ninja Poison. I would suppose that it's DPS potential is highly reliant upon the HP pool of the target you're hitting. You've suggested 40 a second but how long does that take to ramp up? Would that only apply to bosses or does it work with trash as well?

Cetus
12-08-2013, 07:05 PM
Of course there's a ton missing, much the same way I didn't count cleaves for both builds or the 3[W] damage on Cut and BlockCleaves hurt you A LOT more than me, since you are heavily depended on doublestrike damage. Figures you'd exclude it evenly although its impact for each build is UNeven. .

Nor did I count any ED material (something I've said in every post).Any? My strength has ED influence I also stated that I was only using your first page build - ONLY. I don't know what you're holding constant, you mentioned a s&b fighter - you might be going sentinel for all I know, yet claiming that you do like 75% of my DPS. This vagueness is part of what makes your opening post extremely ineffective.
I didn't add in the Earth stance because you weren't in earth stance. I didn't add in dev. crit because you didn't say which ED you were using. What are you talking about, given your supposed meticulous analysis of my build, you'd notice earth stance from the PRR in my screenshot, its presence in my buff bar, or its active status in my videos.
I did include your glancing blows (at 60% no less as that's your first page build... again already said this a few times)
Enhancement is already counted.

You also seem to be going into defenses. Something we're not comparing. We could if you wanted but the answer to that is extremely obvious (so much so that I've said it outright in every post).You're the one mentioning DPS difference, survivability is a variable that DPS depends on.

I didn't realize dance of flowers worked like that. Definitely worth adding.

So, yeah, you did miss a lot.What exactly...again your vague assertions bear no meaning in a discussion that compares specifics. Most of it being what I wrote down to give context. :)


Where's this coming from?

If we want to go into counting past lives (I mean, it's just a build anyone can use it if they want) - then you can put tactics for stunning blow up to approx. 70. Being Human is just because this is F2P, you could always drop the cash to make it Blademarked, which COULD give you 75 trip (or 79 but I suspect you wouldn't really care by that point). Your 70 will not do much in EE except against assassins and casters.

Also, Manyshot CAN be added to this build - but it's first life without a +5 to tome of dex. Could easily fit this in without any trouble once you have it. I'm aware that it can, but I'm going solely off of what YOU posted.

So yes, more things definitely needed to be added to flush out the DPS properly. I don't think I'll update the post, few will scroll up to re-read it.

I don't know how many sneak attack die get added from the Ninja levels (as the others could be held constant, given that EE gloves are still an open slot and past lives are universal).

The real difficulty though is the Ninja Poison. I would suppose that it's DPS potential is highly reliant upon the HP pool of the target you're hitting. You've suggested 40 a second but how long does that take to ramp up? Would that only apply to bosses or does it work with trash as well?

Comments in red

And did you really include shield bashes in your analysis? Lol

Pala-forged
12-08-2013, 08:01 PM
Comments in red

And did you really include shield bashes in your analysis? Lol

Not that I disagree with you, but 70 DC stun is fine for most EE. He's been playing for 2 months, if he can stun EE GH most of the time, that's half decent.

Now post that bladeforged version. I'm currently going through a melee sorc life, just for fun. Its stunning blow still works, sadly enough.

Xianio
12-08-2013, 08:19 PM
First, please stop typing with one hand. I'm not attacking your build or even claiming that I did it justice. In fact, -directly- under the table the very first thing I say is a request for others to check this as it is -most likely- wrong. Meticulous analysis are your words, not mine.

Survivability is the question of the day and one that has been repeatedly addressed Cetus. I was asked to provide meaningful DPS numbers, I aimed to to do so with the info I had concretely available: and on the side while at work (not meticulously I might add). If the goal was to provide the best "over all build" you'd bet your ass I'd start with Pally/Monk then work from there. This S&B is using your build as a comparison for the sole reason that it's readily available and amount the highest damage. (Plus everyone knows it works in EE). So please, dial it back.

Addressing your other concerns in order:
I've left out all actives as I wasn't willing to take the few hours it would require to fully realize the impact they had on average DPS. It's a distinct possibility that my build functions best without cleaves, while yours cleaves just fine. Is it uneven? Absolutely. Is that mentioned as a caveat - absolutely.

On page one you left out your build progression for LD so I didn't take liberties guessing what they would be (This also applies to your sneak attacks from Ninja). I only took tangible information you wrote down. If that helps clear up where the constants are.

In the text above your screenshot it says Fire Stance. I assumed that Fire stance was the one you were using. I do not play, let alone own the monk class to be able to pick the buff out.

Answered above

You missed the proceeding conversation, which outlines that this isn't a "build" comparison but rather just a dps one. Nobodies disputing your "kingship" mate, there's no need to be up in arms. You also missed the fact that the question was "could this survive" - ie: an acknowledgement that there was a significant flaw in the build with the intent of seeking answers as to if it would be so strong as to be preventative. You also missed the enhancement on the weapon was taken into account. You also missed the fact that I was asking for a critique and improvement, not claiming expertise. There's a few more things but I think you get the point.

Go to know. That was a question I had asked earlier yet nobody had been able to provide the answer. Thanks. PS: When you say "won't work" do you mean 'no fail' won't work or that 70 isn't enough to EVER work? I ask because there's a significant difference between the two in my book.

I liked this comment, mostly because so was I. :) (albeit I missed stuff but I suppose we're both guilty of that).

Finally, yes I included shield bashes. Ever since update 19 (maybe 18 I'm not sure) the shield bash mechanic has been fixed to act correctly. The automatic bashes are properly added in between attacks 3 or the 4 attacks (I forget exactly which ones). Given that shield bashes are full strength, affected by deadly, power attack, seeker and can critically hit it adds a small but noteworthy amount to average DPS.
--------------------------------------------------

A few additional points:
To keep the numbers clean I also didn't add in StD's level 18 core ability, which lets my basic attacks hit 2 targets at once. This effectively doubles my DPS in specific situations. With LD this has a 100% up-time until exhausted.

I also didn't include LD's power attack bonus and action bonus to weapons. While something I suspect we'd share, I don't know if this affects shields. If it does that will add yet more damage, which would certainly be helpful.

Finally I wouldn't commit myself to Nightmare either at this point. As you can see a few posts lower, the idea of using a Deurgar Weapon Master Axe is also being tossed around.

Why do I point this out? Because this should show you how limited that analysis was and how it wasn't intended to be a true representation of your builds DPS potential. Rather, it was a modest guess. This is something you would have known if you'd read any of the sentences following the word "Total:"

Zoda
12-08-2013, 08:34 PM
Nobodies disputing your "kingship" mate

Now I'm offended.

Xianio
12-08-2013, 08:39 PM
*shakes fist* Arg politics!

Fine fine, Zoda questions your kingship. I certainly do not.

Lol (with a S&B pure fighter no less)

Edit: Is Tenser's a clickie or scroll? I didn't add that into my strength and/or tactics DC's. If so I guess that would make it 73 and 77; stun and trip respectively.

Cetus
12-08-2013, 09:22 PM
First, please stop typing with one hand. I'm not attacking your build or even claiming that I did it justice I'm not sure what drove you to clarify that you weren't attacking the build. I merely aimed to correct the misrepresentations of my DPS found in your comparison. That's all. . In fact, -directly- under the table the very first thing I say is a request for others to check this as it is -most likely- wrong. Meticulous analysis are your words, not mineWhich is why I prefaced that phrase with the word "supposedly". If you're going to do a DPS comparison, then meticulous analysis wouldn't hurt you. .

Survivability is the question of the day and one that has been repeatedly addressed Cetus. I was asked to provide meaningful DPS numbers, I aimed to to do so with the info I had concretely available: and on the side while at work (not meticulously I might add)You're doing it on the side as much as I am, so asking me to stop typing "one handed" may be a bit hypocritical here.. If the goal was to provide the best "over all build" you'd bet your ass I'd start with Pally/Monk then work from there. This S&B is using your build as a comparison for the sole reason that it's readily available and amount the highest damage. (Plus everyone knows it works in EE). So please, dial it back.You seem to be interpretting my post as aggressive, rather than me "dialing it back" I suggest you view these comments in a friendlier context.

Addressing your other concerns in order:
I've left out all actives as I wasn't willing to take the few hours it would require to fully realize the impact they had on average DPS. It's a distinct possibility that my build functions best without cleaves, while yours cleaves just fine. Is it uneven? Absolutely. Is that mentioned as a caveat - absolutely.

On page one you left out your build progression for LD so I didn't take liberties guessing what they would be (This also applies to your sneak attacks from Ninja)Well, I actually included the three tiers of sneak attack training under my monk tree AP expenditure . I only took tangible information you wrote down. If that helps clear up where the constants are.

In the text above your screenshot it says Fire Stance.It does not say fire stance. It says fire finisher. I assumed that Fire stance was the one you were using. I do not play, let alone own the monk class to be able to pick the buff out.

Answered above

You missed the proceeding conversation, which outlines that this isn't a "build" comparison but rather just a dps one. Nobodies disputing your "kingship" mate, there's no need to be up in armsOnce again, you seem to interpret my comments as hostile. My comments are directly aimed at the points - I'm not softening it with lol's and smileys, but this isn't meant to be demeaning. Thicker skin please. . You also missed I did? I merely commented on your posted comparison. I disagree here. the fact that the question was "could this survive" - ie: an acknowledgement that there was a significant flaw in the build with the intent of seeking answers as to if it would be so strong as to be preventative. You also missed the enhancement on the weapon was taken into accountNope, got that. All I did was rectify things about my build in your comparison to make it more accurate. . You also missed the fact that I was asking for a critique and improvement, not claiming expertise. I improved the accuracy of the comparison. There's a few more things but I think you get the point.

Go to know. That was a question I had asked earlier yet nobody had been able to provide the answer. Thanks. PS: When you say "won't work" do you mean 'no fail' won't work or that 70 isn't enough to EVER work? I run a 77-78 stunning blow DC and gaints, Orcs (notably the priests) rarely stun. Shadavers also rarely stun. No such thing as "never" work, since they can always roll a 1. I ask because there's a significant difference between the two in my book.

I liked this comment, mostly because so was I. :) (albeit I missed stuff but I suppose we're both guiltyYou still ahven't convinced me that I misssed anything at all, =D of that).

Finally, yes I included shield bashes. Ever since update 19 (maybe 18 I'm not sure) the shield bash mechanic has been fixed to act correctly. The automatic bashes are properly added in between attacks 3 or the 4 attacks (I forget exactly which ones). Given that shield bashes are full strength, affected by deadly, power attack, seeker and can critically hit it adds a small but noteworthy amount to average DPS. Yea, but I found it humorous.
--------------------------------------------------

A few additional points:
To keep the numbers clean I also didn't add in StD's level 18 core ability, which lets my basic attacks hit 2 targets at once. This effectively doubles my DPS in specific situations In theory...but practical situations will subtract from that. With LD this has a 100% up-time until exhausted.

I also didn't include LD's power attack bonus and action bonus to weapons. While something I suspect we'd share, I don't know if this affects shields. If it does that will add yet more damage, which would certainly be helpful.

Finally I wouldn't commit myself to Nightmare either at this point. As you can see a few posts lower, the idea of using a Deurgar Weapon Master Axe is also being tossed around.

Why do I point this out? Because this should show you how limited that analysis was and how it wasn't intended to be a true representation of your builds DPS potential. Rather, it was a modest guess. This is something you would have known if you'd read any of the sentences following the word "Total:Then why bother at all..."

Comments in red

Cetus
12-08-2013, 09:25 PM
Now I'm offended.

Stop interfering with my trolling!


Not that I disagree with you, but 70 DC stun is fine for most EE. He's been playing for 2 months, if he can stun EE GH most of the time, that's half decent.

Now post that bladeforged version. I'm currently going through a melee sorc life, just for fun. Its stunning blow still works, sadly enough.

Yea 70 DC is fine for most EE, I mainly had stormhorns in mind.

I've been trying to get with it, but its just too much fun as bladeforged atm. I'll try to start it tonight or tomorrow - most of it is the same though.

Xianio
12-08-2013, 09:52 PM
To go through in order:

The belief of an aggressive tone comes from the claim that I was being misleading and that I was holding my work to a meticulous level. To make such a claim is directly opposed to the sentence following the table, which suggests that it wasn't even read. Given the original post, the posts leading up to the table and posts following the table this was laid out very clearly - I would say outright. While I will certainly remove the sarcasm going forward, I don't think the reaction could be considered surprising given the contents of the quoted post.

*Jumping down to the sneak attack line* - You did, I misinterpreted that as 3 tiers of the tree. My mistake.

And one doesn't need to be in fire stance to use its finisher? Ah well, the more you know.

If you'd like to bring in survivability we can but I see little point. That was never in question and it's a significant stretch to connect the two given that the context of the table existing at all is "If this can survive, this is the dps it can do." I say you missed this as the very title of this thread is "Could this survive EE?" - to provide context.

Your words were "add two" when "two" were already added. This seems like a clear mistake to me, given that your stated goal was to list your builds missed points. Not that it matters, but that's where this comes from.

You certainly did. Unfortunately you did it under the context of being an intentional misrepresentation. I would have expected that the "mostly wrong" line would have covered that.

Why? It adds approximately 35 damage a swing (of the mainhand weapon). That's nearly equal to what Ninja Poison is adding. Might even end up being more depending on how it interacts with feats/ED's.

Yes of course, it's why it was removed. However, unless Epic Elite mob sizes differ significantly from Heroic Elite content I don't expect the average combat to be 1v1 (That's not to say the approach won't differ, but I still expect 2v1 to be quite frequent).

Because I was asked and because it gives those who know more than I the opportunity to point out the gaps in my knowledge. While I certainly learn a lot by "doing" it's far more practical to ask questions/explain my reasoning and have authorities point out the flaws in it. After all, I have yet to see another example of a S&B build that goes into that kind of detail (or nearly any build for that matter). It seems that it's something that is 'not done' here. - A habit I suspect comes from the fact that this is a PvE game. Were it a PvP one analysis would be far tighter, in my experience. :)

Theolin
12-08-2013, 09:58 PM
Let me relate a tale of woe .....

I have 850HP, 155 AC, 134 PPR(~48%), 25% dodge, 25% incorp, 20% blur - and in the harder EEs I get hit right about 25% of the time or so for somewhere between 80-150 damage a hit, bad mobs can hit for about 220 still.

That ac is worth between 25%-50% miss in EEs depending on which one.

Any one mob is not an issue if you can heal, 3 mobs is about max before death happens. & I can stun often enough so really its only 2 causing damage & I can heal myself easily.

--- granted EH is a complete cake walk

sephiroth1084
12-08-2013, 09:59 PM
Grabbing and maintaining aggro on a S&B tank isn't all that difficult if you can land intimidate reliably. Get some swings in, let someone else build some aggro, then hit intim. He has more DPS going than my paladin does, and I was holding aggro fine any time I wanted it.

That said, you're going to get destroyed in EE content without a babysitter. My paladin was running with 1,200 HP, ~150 AC, ~150 PRR, 4% Dodge, Displacement, much better saves, self-cast Quickened CSW for 180-250, Lay On Hands for ~450, and the ability to use Heal scrolls for around 200 I think, and was still struggling much of the time without some outside healing. Cocoon isn't going to cut it on its own on a build designed to be the focus of attention. If you're a caster or archer staying out of harm's way as much as possible, sure, but not as a melee aggro-magnet.

Pala-forged
12-08-2013, 10:08 PM
Yea 70 DC is fine for most EE, I mainly had stormhorns in mind.

I've been trying to get with it, but its just too much fun as bladeforged atm. I'll try to start it tonight or tomorrow - most of it is the same though.

Figured, you once said 70 was fine for anything except EE stormhorns, in which case you just want as much as possible.

Yeah, most would be the same, I'm just curious about enhancements - you might see options I don't. Heck, I pretty much stole your build (minus manyshot) and threw it onto a sorc platform and called it a day. Not as good, no. But it's amusing to watch pugs cry when a melee sorc has the most kills.

Xianio
12-08-2013, 10:19 PM
Let me relate a tale of woe .....

I have 850HP, 155 AC, 134 PPR(~48%), 25% dodge, 25% incorp, 20% blur - and in the harder EEs I get hit right about 25% of the time or so for somewhere between 80-150 damage a hit, bad mobs can hit for about 220 still.

That ac is worth between 25%-50% miss in EEs depending on which one.

Given your numbers I'm getting you mitigating approximately 82-88% of all incoming damage. You're not using displacement though - do you not or was this forgotten?

This is great info all the same. When Displacement is being used in my build my best estimations were leaving me with 78% mitigation. With your numbers however, I can make better guesses on the value of my AC. Against the easier content I was undervaluing my AC by almost 15% so that's a huge buff. I was about right on the hard content though, which is to bad.

Against the easier content that actually lets me match you (when using displacement) at 88% mitigation. Which means that we actually share the same amount of physical damage mitigation. Unless you have displacement, then you're better. :)

LOOON375
12-08-2013, 11:05 PM
4+2-1000/p=&%$-235+kitchen sink

Which in the end, doesn't mean squat.

Forget all of the numbers and spread sheets and all of that garbage. You stated yourself that this is your first toon and it's level 12. Don't worry about how it's going to perform in epic elite.

It doesn't matter at this point.

Just play the game and learn. Play the game and have fun. Experience for yourself what ACTUALLY works and what don't.

It doesn't matter what formula's you can calculate on paper. The results do not EVER translate properly when physically putting them into action. 2+2 does not always = 4 in this game.

You have been given tons of great advice. Follow it or don't.

good luck

Xianio
12-08-2013, 11:07 PM
Can't ever turn off that stuff I'm afraid. It's just who I is. Plus it's fun ;)

sephiroth1084
12-08-2013, 11:26 PM
It doesn't matter what formula's you can calculate on paper. The results do not EVER translate properly when physically putting them into action. 2+2 does not always = 4 in this game.



I hate these kinds of responses, this suggestion.

You don't disregard calculations and formulas because they don't always pan out in game, you merely take them with a grain of salt, with the understanding that there are a lot of other variables in the game making the on-paper stuff not the only criteria to measure or pass judgment on something. However, it is a very strong starting point, and the numbers often do get reflected fairly accurately in the game.

If you look at someone's DPS calculation that indicates 500 damage per minute, and another showing 300, both on a melee character, would you discard that saying it's irrelevant? Maybe if the 500 number were a rogue, and the 300 a fighter, you would add an asterisk to the first saying, "When you have sneak attack," but it's still an important and relevant data point. D

Ditto for AC, PRR, DCs, Dodge, etc... You take all of that and apply it to the actual game experience and make adjustments. For instance, if the 500 vs. 300 discussion were melee vs. ranged, you could say that, while you're going to deal more damage in melee, due to the often constant motion of some combat in DDO, being able to hit your target's hitbox (if not necessarily their AC/Dodge/Concealment/etc) can bridge the gap somewhat in some encounters.

The idea is to get a sense of what you should be seeing in-game, use that to make decisions about build and gear, then find out through play how close you come to the projected results. Simply suggested someone discard the calculated values isn't helpful, and sounds ridiculous, like Shade's constant assertions that the math is irrelevant or inaccurate.

Theolin
12-09-2013, 08:44 AM
Given your numbers I'm getting you mitigating approximately 82-88% of all incoming damage. You're not using displacement though - do you not or was this forgotten?

This is great info all the same. When Displacement is being used in my build my best estimations were leaving me with 78% mitigation. With your numbers however, I can make better guesses on the value of my AC. Against the easier content I was undervaluing my AC by almost 15% so that's a huge buff. I was about right on the hard content though, which is to bad.

Against the easier content that actually lets me match you (when using displacement) at 88% mitigation. Which means that we actually share the same amount of physical damage mitigation. Unless you have displacement, then you're better. :)

- I like how "I get hit right about 25% of the time or so" and "That ac is worth between 25%-50%" - turned into the numbers above :)

Hopefully the example below will explain why these numbers are worthless

Assumptions: as a bad example:
you are standing there attacking 3 mobs
1 of which you can keep out of the fight for 6 out of 12 seconds (stun/trip however)
each swing causes 100 damage (low end of what I see)
each mob has 20k HPs (its just a nice number that is good enough for below)
each mob will hit you 25% of the time (this is an average of what I see, regardless of how you recalculated my numbers)
each mob swings once per second (this is also a low number)
you do 1k damage per swing @ approx 100 swings per minute
yea, I know there is no such thing as 1/2 a swing, deal with it

Given the above: This means you kill a mob in about 20 swings which is 1/5 of a minute or 1 kill every 12 seconds
... If you stop to heal you will take more damage from what is in the example below.

Example:
Round 1: 12 seconds
first 6 seconds: 2 mobs swing 6 times each - 12 swings @ 25% hit rate - 3 hits - 300 damage
second 6 seconds: 3m mobs swing 6 times each - 18 swings @ 25% - 4.5 hits - 450 damage
.... so after 12 seconds you have killed 1 mob & you have taken 750 damage

Round 2: 12 seconds
first 6 seconds: 1 mob swings 6 times - 1.5 hits - 150 damage
second 6 seconds: 2 mobs swing 12 times - 3 hits - 300 damage
.... after round 2 if you actually lived you have killed 2 mobs & you have taken 1200 damage

Round 3 : 12 seconds
first 6 seconds: 1 mob swings 0 times - 0 damage
second 6 seconds: 1 mobs swing 6 times - 1.5 hits - 150 damage
.... after round 3 if you actually lived you have killed 3 mobs & you have taken 1350 damage

congratulations you have not even survived one fight .... most encounters are 4 mobs :)

LOOON375
12-09-2013, 09:40 AM
I hate these kinds of responses, this suggestion. .I used to argue with fricken engineeres on construction sites, that used to make the same type of assertions.

"if it works on paper, it will work in the real world" It would take hours of delays to get them just to come outside to look. And then when you physically show them how it doesn't fit and it never will, they will still argue till they are blue in the face screaming about how it works on paper. These types of guys never had one actual day of putting the stuff they designed together..............in the real worid outside of their office.

The OP is arguing with people that have been playing the game for years, which is fine, but not fine when he has absolutely no experiences whatsoever in playing in those levels. with that toon, with that gear.

The point of my post was to just direct the OP to just go play the game, and learn for him self what actually works and what don't work.

Don't forget to have fun.

sephiroth1084
12-09-2013, 10:35 AM
I used to argue with fricken engineeres on construction sites, that used to make the same type of assertions.

"if it works on paper, it will work in the real world" It would take hours of delays to get them just to come outside to look. And then when you physically show them how it doesn't fit and it never will, they will still argue till they are blue in the face screaming about how it works on paper. These types of guys never had one actual day of putting the stuff they designed together..............in the real worid outside of their office.

The OP is arguing with people that have been playing the game for years, which is fine, but not fine when he has absolutely no experiences whatsoever in playing in those levels. with that toon, with that gear.

The point of my post was to just direct the OP to just go play the game, and learn for him self what actually works and what don't work.

Don't forget to have fun.
Ok, that's fair. I hadn't read all of the back and forth the OP was having with Cetus.

sephiroth1084
12-09-2013, 10:50 AM
Xianio, discounting Epic Destinies' contribution to survivability and DPS is going to give you a very misleading picture--we're getting so much DPS from destinies it's hard to compare a build with them and one without. As Cetus pointed out, Cleaves make a rather large difference, as you can be swinging with +2 or +3[W] fairly constantly, and both Momentum Swing and Lay Waste are significant sources of damage. All of the goodies in LD, like Improved Power Attack, Crit Damage, Advancing Blows...also contribute quite a bit to DPS. Finally, you have the epic moment, Master's Blitz, which you simply will not be able to take advantage of with your much lower DPS, because you won't be killing enemies fast enough to keep it rolling. You're not counting the differences in base weapon dice sufficiently, either--there are a lot of +[W] effects around, which can count for quite a bit of extra damage. Momentum Swing, for example, is +5[W] (on 2d6, that's +35 damage) plus an expanded threat range.

On the defensive front, saves matter a lot. Cometfall will get you killed while you're lying on your back. My barbarian got ripped apart in EE PoP wearing 33% elemental absorption items appropriate to the room I was in with a dedicated healer with us. You just take far too much damage if you're failing Reflex saves.

You aren't going to get missed as often as you think you will; your AC isn't going to contribute all that much, and you have no Dodge to speak of.

Finally, Cocoon simply isn't going to cover your healing needs, and it didn't look like you were going to have enough UMD to reliably use scrolls (not to mention, you will need to get distance between yourself and enemies when you want to use them, because you're going to fail the Concentration check while you're being hit).

This isn't all to say that you'll be useless in EE, just that you're not going to perform anywhere near what you think you will, especially without a real healer in the group (good luck with that). In EH, you'll probably do very well. Believe me, I'd love for a S&B tank to be more viable in the game right now (although I prefer paladin over fighter), but it just doesn't stack up.

Xianio
12-09-2013, 03:37 PM
This isn't all to say that you'll be useless in EE, just that you're not going to perform anywhere near what you think you will, especially without a real healer in the group (good luck with that). In EH, you'll probably do very well. Believe me, I'd love for a S&B tank to be more viable in the game right now (although I prefer paladin over fighter), but it just doesn't stack up.

Don't worry about me "not reading" or "discounting" anything that anyone has said. I never did nor did I expect my final numbers to be correct (much like I said multiple times). The %'s were given at a time when not all the information was available and a caveat was included each and every time as an attempt to mitigate for this.
--- It would seem that writing "This could change the numbers significantly" is not enough. Next time I shall bold the text stating caveat information.


- I like how "I get hit right about 25% of the time or so" and "That ac is worth between 25%-50%" - turned into the numbers above
Hopefully the example below will explain why these numbers are worthless

Perhaps I should explain how the math works because what you're describing is an aside rather than a counter to what I wrote.

Mitigating 88% of all incoming damage doesn't mean surviving an encounter. They're not connected. One just describes one piece of the puzzle.

Lets use Toon X vs Toon Y as our examples. Toon X only mitigates 70%, of the damage coming his way, while Toon Y mitigates 90%. However, Toon X also does 10x the damage Toon Y does. If it takes Toon X 10 seconds to kill a monster it'll take Toon Y 100 seconds. It doesn't take someone good at math to realize that even though Toon Y mitigates 90% of the damage that he's still going to die FAR more often than Toon X. After all, he's trying survive 10x the incoming damage.

Damage mitigation is just a single piece of the puzzle and highly dependent upon other factors. It's a % and %'s are only valuable when put into context of actual numbers.


You aren't going to get missed as often as you think you will; your AC isn't going to contribute all that much, and you have no Dodge to speak of.

Migitation != missed. They're different things. I placed AC at 15% (which Theolin's numbers corroborate) then you (multiplicatively) work with elusive, dodge, incorporal and concealment. That's how you find "miss" chance. After that you pull in PRR-based damage reduction and that's how you reach the 88% number.


The OP is arguing with people that have been playing the game for years, which is fine,

I would ask you to quote me arguing with someone about the validity of their numbers. The ONLY exception to this was madmike (or whatever his name was) as I was requesting more specifics and he wouldn't provide them.

You'll find that I'm not arguing with ANYONE giving me more information about the information they're giving me. I asked for it, it wouldn't make much sense to argue it.


I used to argue with fricken engineeres on construction sites, that used to make the same type of assertions.

Despite the fact that your engineers were too proud to admit when they made an error, that doesn't change the fact that the hundreds of other calculations they did were correct. I'm all for experience over theory but I'm at the beginning of my career, just became a husband and have just begun fixing my home. Video games, while fun, are not a luxury I get a lot of time to actually gain experience in anymore.

Yes, there are 100,000 variables that come into play every time you do anything. That doesn't mean that the people who understand the mechanics of the system aren't better informed and generally perform better.

After all, for some, poker is just a game of luck. While for others it's a skilled competition with an element of luck involved.


sephiroth1084... additional comments

Yes I know, I absolutely accounted for the fact that my numbers were "left-click" only and likely wrong in any case. It has been stated (by me) many, many times. Further the additional questions were the original purpose of this thread before it got side tracked by page 2. They've been answered, no worries.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As I've said previously but will reiterate now; I suspect that an exchange of ideas like this (with a heavy dose of math involved) is something DDO'ers are unused to. My experience comes from a NWN arena server, LoL and some shooters where the difference between 1 second or 10 flat damage can change the outcome of a fight. When numbers were wrong on those forums people would point them out, you'd adjust the numbers and continue working from the new basis.

Here, there seems to be significant difficulty moving past the original assessment, or even acknowledging the original stipulations which brought about the numbers in the first place. Different stroke for different folks I suppose.

sephiroth1084
12-09-2013, 03:58 PM
I think there is a problem in your presentation. When you spend 250 words saying one thing, and then append that with a one light disclaimer, the latter isn't going to hold much weight. It's misleading to say, "I'm reproducing 85% of this DPS-centric build's DPS on my S&B character," and then stick "but I'm not including X, Y, Z, 1, 2, 3 in these calculations," at the end.

You're presenting your calculations and conclusions in a misleading fashion, even if you are including the disclaimer. That little bit at the end doesn't mean you can put whatever you like over a page. In this case, you're talking about running Epic Elite content, but not talking about Epic Destinies, even though, really, no one should be running EE without EDs.

And as for your reply regarding "mitigation" and AC, my point was that you've mentioned trying to fit in some more Protection or other AC boosts, and I'm telling you that it's a waste, because it won't be contributing to your mitigation. In this case, getting missed is mitigation. You'd be better off replacing all that AC with DPS, unfortunately. The PRR, concealment, and incorporeality is good; the Dodge isn't, because you don't have enough to be meaningful. Someone with an 80 AC, but 25% dodge is going to be better off than you will be (not to mention, they probably have Evasion).

It sucks, I know, that the end game has gotten skewed in this way, but that's the reality of things in DDO at present.

Xianio
12-09-2013, 04:05 PM
One would think that saying;

"Check these numbers, they're most likely wrong" directly following final numbers would suffice. It certainly has in the past. I strongly suspect that it's the introduction of "significant" numbers themselves as part of a conversation that is causing so much trouble.

People here don't seem to mind them as a conclusion but as part of the conversation there is a significant loss back and forth.

I say this only because an old standard I had gone by was that creating a side by side chart is fantastic for capturing flaws. It's how I caught the first error myself that dropped my dps by 7%. In my mind that's the purpose of a chart.

But none of that matters. Old habits must be thrown aside for new norms.

Aside:

Someone with an 80 AC, but 25% dodge is going to be better off than you will be (not to mention, they probably have Evasion).

Oh they definitely will, by 10% exactly. 80 AC is the same as 0 in EE, while 135 is only good for about 15%. But this isn't a matter of trying to fit a square block into a circular hole. I just like S&B and wanted to know if it could survive in EE, not if it was optimal, competitive or even a good idea.

I wasn't presenting a new "Cetus" or "Juggernaut." I was asking a question about a build I intend to build and to get others opinion on how far it would go. My take away from this is that I "could" survive some easy EE content with a dedicated healer but over all the lack of saves/evasion/self-sustain will be far to much for even a dedicated healer to manage.

I'm not "hurt" by this it's just the reality of the game. This wasn't a build competition, it was just a build. ;)

Feithlin
12-10-2013, 01:57 PM
Believe me, I'd love for a S&B tank to be more viable in the game right now (although I prefer paladin over fighter), but it just doesn't stack up.

This the main point IMO. OP would like that S&B would be effective in eE end game, and sadly, they're not.
I have a S&B too I would like to convert efficiently, but that doesn't cut it. My plan was originally F12/P6/M2. I could reach the required saves, but dps would still be pretty lackluster.

That being said, eE doesn't say that much. My actual build (the one I had, i.e. the Immortal -- F18//Ro2, with only enhancements changed) can solo eE, but only the little ones and not very efficiently in terms of time spent. I'm pretty sure my saves won't work for hardest content, and my build plan would most probably not be enough for end game. You only need to be conscient of the limits of your build. I will be happy if I can make him fine for eE high roads & GH. More importantly, I would like him to be a good contribution for raids, which are lacking today.

My advice would be to forget about AC: you would need to invest a lot for very little return. PRR should be high enough (around 120 I would say), but remember it has diminishing returns, so there's no need to sacrifice dps to gain +20 for example, when you already have 120. Dodge need to be high, because damage is so high that you'd better escape it. Your saves need to be very high. Today, the target seems to be 70 Reflex. For easier content, you could probably be fine with 60. Evasion is a big plus, especially if you can save on a 1 (i.e. have high enough saves and eReflexes). A tank cannot focus only on physical damage.
Now, the main defense is actually to not be taking hit from enemies. This is why it's very useful, if not required, to have a ranged option. Fury manyshot is such a big burst dps that it's hard to pass, and the problem is that defensive stances are pretty ineffective in Fury.
This is only the defensive part, and many builds can reach that without loosing much dps. If you want to be efficient, you need a similar dps, which implies some strong investment into the build and EDs. Even with all the boosts on doublestrike, dps is still miles behind because of unavailable options for S&B (no monk stance, no fury if you're in stance, no headshop if you're using BS, or a drop in doublestrike if you use DAxe, etc.).

In fact, I may well TR my S&B into some kind of monk splash, and forget about shields. It's not such a big deal, as the first version of my char (I switched to BS & Shield when they changed the AC system) was TWF khopesh switching to shield when needed.