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View Full Version : Whats better? DI: Earth(T5)+Ice(T4) or Shiradi: Air(T5)+Fire(T4)



Xeno5k
12-04-2013, 03:03 AM
What's better:

5th Tier Earth Savant with a minor in ice in the Draconic Destiny and a focus on conjuration spells for webs and acid

or

5th tier Air Savant with a minor in fire in the Shiradi Champion Destiny and a focus on evocation spells.

thesnoman
12-04-2013, 01:40 PM
It all depends - what are you planning to do?


5th Tier Earth Savant with a minor in ice in the Draconic Destiny and a focus on conjuration spells for webs and acid

Fun to play - mostly a flavor build if you're playing end game. A blast to play while leveling 1-20 (and even up to 23-24). You'll want all the conjuration feats you can get, and then some - Cleric past lives help this type of build a lot.



5th tier Air Savant with a minor in fire in the Shiradi Champion Destiny and a focus on evocation spells.

This is much more of an end game build. Less reliance on past lives, more ability to solo. Feat selection is a toss-up, but in Shiradi you cast no-save spells, so don't worry about Evocation Focus. Max/Emp affect Shiradi Procs, so picking these up is a bonus. You could also go the Dodge/Mobility route and easily cap your dodge - get some incorp., perma-blur, and displacement and you become almost un-hittable.

Xeno5k
12-04-2013, 05:18 PM
I don't plan on doing anything in Shadowfell, my main EEs will be in Forgotten Realms (Pre-Shadowfell) and EE GH. Also with the Earth Savant built I can expect a DC in the low 50s before debuffs, and with the Air Savant built I can expect a DC in the high 40s before debuffs.

thesnoman
12-04-2013, 05:50 PM
OK - I'll give you my experience in this.

My favorite savant to play, pre-MOTU, was Earth Savant. I still think it is a blast to play while leveling to 20, and even in DI through the MOTU content.

For what it's worth, I prefer Acid/Fire to Acid/Ice

Once you hit EE Druid's Deep, there's too much that either:
a) is immune to acid
b) saves on your high DPS spells (acid blast, DBFB, first tick of Acid Rain, etc)

On to EE High Road, where:
a) everything saves for half
b) things start to walk through your webs (fort saves)
c) HPs are so high that you can't make it to a shrine without 1-2 pots

Next came Epic Gianthold - the final death knell of my life as an Earth Savant. In EE GH:
a) forget web for ANYTHING - fort saves are way too high.
b) think HPs were high in the High Road - the Devs squashed those numbers with the HPPs of EE GH mobs
c) you become slightly more viable again while soloing since there is a shrine right outside every quest - you can exit and re-enter quests as much as you need as long as you don't plan on getting any XP fo them. For group play, don't even think about it.

It's a good think you don't plan on playing anything in Shadowfell - High reflex save evasion mobs are the Devs' flavor of the month in this Xpack - no-save auto-hit spells are really the best way to go here, so say bye-bye to 50-75% of the damage you can dish out as an acid savant.

Of course, with a large investment into feats (SF:Conjuration, GSF: Conjuration, ESF: Conjuration), a twist from Magister (T2 Conjuration Specialist 3/3), and 3x Cleric Past Lives you can start to overcome the shortfalls of acid savant in EE content.

Additionally, Solid Fog is your friend to help overcome reflex saves.

Unfortunately for Earth Savants, most of your spells are conjuration - EVERY OTHER SAVANT USES EVOCATION - so by investing heavily in Conjuration you are crippling your ability to use Ice or Fire spells when saves are involved.


My current caster build is the Toaster of Vengeance in my signature 14Sorc/4Fvs/2Pally - Fire Savant/Angel of Vengeance with a splash of Eldritch Knight.
I run in Shiradi for EE content and in DI for EH and lower content (so I can get my Karma back up in the arcane sphere after an ETR)


Please keep in mind that most of the above post assumes a high amount of solo play. If you're in a well balanced group, an Earth Savant's shortcomings aren't noticed as much, but they are still there. Your DI Abilities (Energy Burst:Acid, Energy Vortex: Acid, and Black Dragon Breath) will work well with most groups - just remember to watch high reflex save MOBs and run everything into a Solid Fog before hitting those abilities)

unbongwah
12-05-2013, 11:33 AM
a) forget web for ANYTHING - fort saves are way too high.
Unless they changed it, initial save for Web is Reflex, not Fort; breaking free is a STR check, though, which I'm betting is insanely high on EE mobs in GH.

thesnoman
12-05-2013, 11:43 AM
Unless they changed it, initial save for Web is Reflex, not Fort; breaking free is a STR check, though, which I'm betting is insanely high on EE mobs in GH.


Yep - you're right - it's the STR check that renders it useless in Gianthold. Although I haven't built a Conjuration Focused Sorc since EGH was released, I'm betting the reflex save makes it useless against anything except casters in U19 - might be fun to try out though.

Xeno5k
12-05-2013, 03:28 PM
Well my problem was I was a Shriadi Sorc my last life before U19 and it sucked, I wasted tons of SP in EE just to kill one mob and it was utterly useless in EH where I could just use my regular spells and DI abilities to kill mobs which turned out more efficient. To me, and this just might be me, Shiradi just doesn't do good damage. I mean on average how much does one shot of MM do, for me it hardly did any damage which is why I stopped using it.

thesnoman
12-05-2013, 05:55 PM
Well my problem was I was a Shriadi Sorc my last life before U19 and it sucked, I wasted tons of SP in EE just to kill one mob and it was utterly useless in EH where I could just use my regular spells and DI abilities to kill mobs which turned out more efficient. To me, and this just might be me, Shiradi just doesn't do good damage. I mean on average how much does one shot of MM do, for me it hardly did any damage which is why I stopped using it.


Based on this response you either:
A) Didn't have the right gear
B) Didn't have the right enhancements
C) Didn't grab the right Shiradi ED Enhancements
D) Forgot to turn on Prism

I only say this because I could efficiently solo EE Tor with my Air/Fire Shiradi Sorc before the enhancement pass

If you didn't like the DPS of your pre-U19 Shiradi, try this POST-U19 Shiradi Build - The Toaster Of Vengeance (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/429261-Toaster-of-Vengeance)

I can Solo EE Von3 without shrining
I can Solo EE Tor (without Dragons) WITHOUT SHRINING
I can Solo EE POP - all optionals - WITHOUT SHRINING

Damage is much higher than the Pre-U19 Shiradi
Survivability is slightly lower, but still manageable
You'll almost never run out of Spell Points - unless you're heavy handed with DBFB

Seriously a fun build and if you have access to Bladeforged, it's even more powerful.

Xeno5k
12-05-2013, 07:12 PM
Pre U19 equipment and enhancements:

EE Bronze Ingot Arcanum
Abishai 5 Piece
Epic Ring of Elemental Essence
CON +8 Stone Heart

And

Earth savant tree
Ice damage line
Repair manipulation
WF CON
WF Tougness
Energy of the Dragon line

Wizza
12-06-2013, 03:39 AM
Well my problem was I was a Shriadi Sorc my last life before U19 and it sucked, I wasted tons of SP in EE just to kill one mob and it was utterly useless in EH where I could just use my regular spells and DI abilities to kill mobs which turned out more efficient. To me, and this just might be me, Shiradi just doesn't do good damage. I mean on average how much does one shot of MM do, for me it hardly did any damage which is why I stopped using it.

Shiradi was never about the damage but about efficiency. Things take longer to kill than DI/DC Sorc but you rarely run out of mana.

thesnoman
12-06-2013, 06:36 AM
Pre U19 equipment and enhancements:

EE Bronze Ingot Arcanum
Abishai 5 Piece
Epic Ring of Elemental Essence
CON +8 Stone Heart


OK - For EE here's what I was running:

Flawless Blue Dragonscale
EH Blue Dragon Helm (+3 Cha)
Lootgen Necklace - 25% Exceptional Fort/Con +6
Planar Focus of Erudition (+8 Charisma or +3 Int)
EE Jewe;ed Cloak
EH Girdle of Giants Brawn
EH/EE Ring of Shadows and EE/EH Ring of Deceit
Greensteel Gloves (Con-Op II)
Epic Rock Boots (Dex Slotted)
Lootgen Bracers - Healing Amp/???





Earth savant tree
Ice damage line
Repair manipulation
WF CON
WF Tougness
Energy of the Dragon line

Your enhancements look OK, but you didn't have Force Lines - which you need for Shiradi.


So...based on that you were missing 2 things - Gear and Enhancements - there's little wonder your Shiradi Sorc wasn't up to EE.

Still Pre-U19 is long gone - there are so many iterations of Shiradi Sorc out there now that it's ridiculous.

Pure Sorc
18/2 ( Warforged or Bladeforged Pally)
18/2 (Warforged FvS)
16/2/2 (Warforged or Bladeforged FvS/Pally)
16/4 (Half Elf w/ Paly Dill. FvS )
14/4/2 (Warforged 4 FvS/2 Pally)

And I'm sure I'm missing some. Add on top of that choices in Savant trees (Most stick to Air/Fire or Fire/Angel of Vengeance) and you've got so many choices that its ridiculous. Shiradi Sorcs (properly built) are still the way to go in EE - they''re just more powerful than they were before U19)

Axjl
12-06-2013, 08:16 PM
Well my problem was I was a Shriadi Sorc my last life before U19 and it sucked, I wasted tons of SP in EE just to kill one mob and it was utterly useless in EH where I could just use my regular spells and DI abilities to kill mobs which turned out more efficient. To me, and this just might be me, Shiradi just doesn't do good damage. I mean on average how much does one shot of MM do, for me it hardly did any damage which is why I stopped using it.

Every one else mentioned gear and epic destiny, but there is something else - you dont use metamagics in Shiradi, unless its on your SLA's and thus for free. If you use empower/maximize with Magic/force/chain Missiles you wont get more kills or save more sp than just using your normal spells. turn metamagic off and just spam those =)

thesnoman
12-06-2013, 09:54 PM
Every one else mentioned gear and epic destiny, but there is something else - you dont use metamagics in Shiradi, unless its on your SLA's and thus for free. If you use empower/maximize with Magic/force/chain Missiles you wont get more kills or save more sp than just using your normal spells. turn metamagic off and just spam those =)

Do you not know that Metamagics affect Shiradi Procs?? Your Metas should ALWAYS BE ON!!! (with a twist...I've posted it elsehere in the Sorcerer Forum and will not repeat it here)