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C-Shell
12-02-2013, 05:44 PM
im new to monks and would like to build one around the ninja spy dex boni for shortswords. featwise i thought about the twf line and the whirlwind attack line for more dodge. i have enough cleaving toons with overwhelming crit, so that can be cut out even if it hits my overall dps.

i have basically not clue about the all the monk special attacks. in a dex build, should i put my levelup points towards wisdom anyway, should i balance between dex and wis or only go dex?

its a first life drow.

thanks to anyone who can help out

inspiredunease
12-03-2013, 06:40 AM
I've also wanted to try a whirlwind dex-based for a while, but I definitely still want to fit in OC. What follows is a build I want to to try out in a future life on my main. Not sure how useful it will be on a first life tomeless toon, but it might give you ideas:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.03
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Stabby McStabberson
Level 28 Lawful Neutral Drow Male
(20 Monk \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 394
Spell Points: 1236592
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 25
Will: 16

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28)
Strength 16 23
Dexterity 18 31
Constitution 12 17
Intelligence 10 15
Wisdom 14 19
Charisma 10 15

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 15
+4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 15
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 15
+4 Tome of Intelligence used at level 15
+4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 15
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 15
+5 Tome of Strength used at level 19
+5 Tome of Dexterity used at level 19
+5 Tome of Constitution used at level 19
+5 Tome of Intelligence used at level 19
+5 Tome of Wisdom used at level 19
+5 Tome of Charisma used at level 19

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 28)
Balance 7 30
Bluff 0 10
Concentration 5 37
Diplomacy 0 10
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 0 10
Heal 4 26
Hide 4 18
Intimidate 0 10
Jump 3 16
Listen 2 14
Move Silently 4 26
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 10
Search 0 12
Spellcraft 0 10
Spot 2 37
Swim 3 14
Tumble 5 21
Use Magic Device 2 21

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness


Level 4 (Monk)


Level 5 (Monk)


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Mobility


Level 7 (Monk)


Level 8 (Monk)


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Monk)


Level 11 (Monk)


Level 12 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 13 (Monk)


Level 14 (Monk)


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Monk)


Level 17 (Monk)


Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack


Level 19 (Monk)


Level 20 (Monk)


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Whirlwind Attack


Level 28 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Elusive Target
Enhancement: Drow - Spell Resistance (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Drow - Drow Dexterity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Drow - Xen'drik Weapon Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Drow - Venom Lore (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Drow - Venom Lore (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Drow - Venom Lore (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Drow - Xen'drik Weapon Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Drow - Improved Dodge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Drow - Improved Dodge (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Drow - Improved Dodge (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Drow - Xen'drik Weapon Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Drow - Venomed Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Drow - Venomed Blades (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Drow - Venomed Blades (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Drow - Xen'drik Weapon Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Shadow Veil (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Poisoned Darts (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Diversion (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Master (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Impending Doom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Wave of Despair (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Unbalancing Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Agility (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Agility (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Agility (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sting of the Ninja (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Dexterity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - No Mercy (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - No Mercy (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - No Mercy (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Dexterity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Crippling Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Shadow Double (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Bastion of Purity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Skin (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Skin (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Skin (Rank 3)


The build would be run in Legendary Dreadnought with Dance of Flowers, Standing in Stone and Cocoon as twists (I believe you can still get a blue bar for it just with +sp items, if not, would have to drop standing in stone for endless faith or something). Playstyle will be to cleave, great cleave and whirlwind to apply lots of poison damage to groups. I ignore the DC based dark finishers and touch of death as in my experience even with a wisdom build they're difficult to land. Ki should all go into dark attacks, preferably spammed just after a great cleave to try and apply it to a group. The either use the neg level finisher, or the other one dependent on if you need a little healing and ki top up. Should be pretty survivable with improved evasion, ridiculous reflex saves, lots of PRR, 28% dodge and cocooon self-healing and should do reasonable damage with celestia + rebellion.

To modify for a first life I would probably drop overwhelming crit as you said, get whirlwind earlier, put points into int instead of strength. I'd still grab cleave/great cleave for the AOE, but pick up different epic feats. Possibly improved martial arts and blinding speed?

C-Shell
12-03-2013, 09:49 AM
thanks a lot so far.

am i right that when i would take the epic feat vorpal strike (http://ddowiki.com/page/Vorpal_Strikes), also handwraps would be considred slashing thus profiting from improved critical slashing and profiting from the +dex to hit and damage from ninja spy core 1 and 2?

i know i would get vorpal from tier5 ninja spy, but this could maybe be a good reason for pumping wisdom and having the option to be decent with monk special attack dcs? but then again, this would mean i had to use kamas instead of shortswords or get 2 improved critical feats

inspiredunease
12-03-2013, 10:49 AM
thanks a lot so far.

am i right that when i would take the epic feat vorpal strike (http://ddowiki.com/page/Vorpal_Strikes), also handwraps would be considred slashing thus profiting from improved critical slashing and profiting from the +dex to hit and damage from ninja spy core 1 and 2?

Nope. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way, improved crit: bludgeon is needed for handwraps, as vorpal strikes doesn't alter the original damage type. None of the enhancements work for them either (they used to for Ivy wraps but they've been nerfed, and relegating yourself to a sub-par set of wraps is not good anyway). If you're not going shortswords I wouldn't recommend going drow. Or full ninja spy. The whole point is the synergy between drow shortswords and the ninja spy enhancements. That and all the fun poison procs, which also don't work with handwraps.


this could maybe be a good reason for pumping wisdom and having the option to be decent with monk special attack dcs?

Nope. You will not have good DCs with the finishers unless you have a lot of investment in wisdom. Even then they'll not be great (DC = 10 + Monk level + Wisdom modifier = 10 + 20 + 30 (requires 70 wisdom) = 60 DC, not enough for EE). The DCs that are worth working for with monks are QP and SF, these can have great DCs because they are affected by stunning/shattering/combat mastery items (you can theoretically get +20 QP DC from gear) and tactics enhancements (can get +3 from dwarf/bladeforged/warforged, +6 from legendary tactics +2 from tactician and +3 from gmof innates). If you want a DC based build, I would suggest you do a dwarf unarmed build. With a lot of work you should be able to get a 70+ DC for QP/SF on a first life toon on a dwarf unarmed build. Otherwise, just forget DCs.

C-Shell
12-03-2013, 11:08 AM
understood sir. i dont want DCs that are just good in enorm, so i will pump dex.

Todkaninchen
12-04-2013, 02:43 PM
One thing to remember on build points...

You get AC bonus from DEX and WIS! As a monk, you can also get a reasonable amount of AC which--in combo with a blur item, dodge, and your 25% incorp from shadow fade--can mitigate a lot of damage while you DPS.

So WIS boosts both DC's on things like stunning fist, quivering palm, etc. and AC in addition.

Also, some abilities (like stunning fist and quivering palm) can also be gear boosted as well as mentioned. (stunning fist by stunning and quivering palm with sunder). While stunning fist won't work with short swords, quivering palm does...

Oh, and consider getting Fists of Iron. ALSO works with weapons.

Another possibility is Whirling Steel Strike for longs words...

...which--with the Ninja core--makes them also DEX to hit and DEX to damage.

Todkaninchen
12-04-2013, 02:47 PM
Nope. You will not have good DCs with the finishers unless you have a lot of investment in wisdom. Even then they'll not be great (DC = 10 + Monk level + Wisdom modifier = 10 + 20 + 30 (requires 70 wisdom) = 60 DC, not enough for EE). The DCs that are worth working for with monks are QP and SF, these can have great DCs because they are affected by stunning/shattering/combat mastery items (you can theoretically get +20 QP DC from gear) and tactics enhancements (can get +3 from dwarf/bladeforged/warforged, +6 from legendary tactics +2 from tactician and +3 from gmof innates). If you want a DC based build, I would suggest you do a dwarf unarmed build. With a lot of work you should be able to get a 70+ DC for QP/SF on a first life toon on a dwarf unarmed build. Otherwise, just forget DCs.

Part of that is tactics...

Are you going to be able to stun/QP everything?

No.

What you will usually be able to stun/QP with a moderate build most of the time are enemy casters...

...and you should have the mobility to get to them, dispose of them, and then go back to beating down melees. If you're in a party and the (other) melees go straight to the enemy melees, this also gives them time to pull aggro and let you add in your sneak attack damage as well.

So, just saying, play to your strengths, eh?

inspiredunease
12-04-2013, 05:27 PM
You get AC bonus from DEX and WIS! As a monk, you can also get a reasonable amount of AC which--in combo with a blur item, dodge, and your 25% incorp from shadow fade--can mitigate a lot of damage while you DPS.

No. It can't. Ac is completely meaningless in any and all end-game at the moment. This has been proven to the point where even Therigar has shut up about it. High reflex saves however are worth shooting for. Wisdom does not help with this.


So WIS boosts both DC's on things like stunning fist, quivering palm, etc. and AC in addition.

SF is irrelevant on a weapon build. Good QP DCs could be attainable, but as you state in your second post, they're situational at best.


Oh, and consider getting Fists of Iron. ALSO works with weapons.

Fists of iron is nice if you can fit it in. AP are tight with a ninja spy build unfortunately. Having to put 40 points in to get the capstone is constrictive.


Another possibility is Whirling Steel Strike for longs words...

This doesn't make sense on a drow build.


{The rest of your second post}

Can effectively be filed under: "learn to play a monk". Which is solid advice.

Todkaninchen
12-04-2013, 07:03 PM
No. It can't. Ac is completely meaningless in any and all end-game at the moment. This has been proven to the point where even Therigar has shut up about it. High reflex saves however are worth shooting for. Wisdom does not help with this.

All I know is the combination works for me to the point I can self-heal with wholeness of body and the GMoF insta-heal every 5 minutes while I see a whole chain of "Blurry" "Miss" "Dodge" "Incorporeal". You're not going to have everyone miss you all the time. But the combination of a 50% defense or 68% defense or whatever at level, a 25% incorp chance, a 28% dodge chance, and 20% permablur means you don't have to have a very high AC to be valuable because it only has to work after something gets past the other 2 or 3 (2 if an enemy has true seeing) miss rolls.




SF is irrelevant on a weapon build. Good QP DCs could be attainable, but as you state in your second post, they're situational at best.

Like you said, learn to play monk. Being able to pick a single target, knock them in the head, and tear them down with blades may not be the simplest way, but it can be very effective situationally.




Fists of iron is nice if you can fit it in. AP are tight with a ninja spy build unfortunately. Having to put 40 points in to get the capstone is constrictive.

40 points is half your total AP. Fists of Iron shows up in all three monk enhancement trees and--of the other three elemental strikes--one's a DC-based one anyway. It's a 5ki spammable attack that gives you +3[W] damage, and boosted crit range and multiplier on a 3 second cool down. Unless you're doing a QP build or other means of insta-kill, it's a big DPS jump, especially if you chain it with Shadow Double.



This doesn't make sense on a drow build.

Depends on the blade. If you have/need/get an exceptional longsword (Oathblade, perhaps, or Tinah or Threnalian War blades at low level) or something else that offsets the +4 damage from Xendrick weapon training, it might be worth the feat. Otherwise, stay with short swords

inspiredunease
12-05-2013, 05:33 AM
All I know is the combination works for me to the point I can self-heal with wholeness of body and the GMoF insta-heal every 5 minutes while I see a whole chain of "Blurry" "Miss" "Dodge" "Incorporeal". You're not going to have everyone miss you all the time. But the combination of a 50% defense or 68% defense or whatever at level, a 25% incorp chance, a 28% dodge chance, and 20% permablur means you don't have to have a very high AC to be valuable because it only has to work after something gets past the other 2 or 3 (2 if an enemy has true seeing) miss rolls.
All enemies have 5% miss chance against you. Regardless of AC: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425602-AC-Dodge-Concealment-Incorporeality-and-you. Please read this thread and notice that Therigar has fallen strangely silent. Maybe he's testing whether he can get 5 or, gasp 10% mis-chance in EEs. Either way. It's effectively meaningless and not worth building for. I'm disappointed too, I used to have an untouchable monk with icy raiments too, but AC has been nerfed to oblivion for end game. Accept it.

40 points is half your total AP. Fists of Iron shows up in all three monk enhancement trees and--of the other three elemental strikes--one's a DC-based one anyway. It's a 5ki spammable attack that gives you +3[W] damage, and boosted crit range and multiplier on a 3 second cool down. Unless you're doing a QP build or other means of insta-kill, it's a big DPS jump, especially if you chain it with Shadow Double.
I would agree with you here. It is great DPS. So is unbalancing strike. The build i posted can't fit it in, but I agree with you, it's worth getting if you can.

Depends on the blade. If you have/need/get an exceptional longsword (Oathblade, perhaps, or Tinah or Threnalian War blades at low level) or something else that offsets the +4 damage from Xendrick weapon training, it might be worth the feat. Otherwise, stay with short swords
Again, we're talking about optimising an end-game Drow shortsword build. Why would you use longswords? Celestia and rebellion are both better DPS than Tinah without even taking into account that you would have to waste a feat to use it.