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bree22
12-02-2013, 09:34 AM
Looking for an AA after my completionist lvling is done. I have played straight 20r AA, 11r/9m AA (loved this build back in the day w/tod) and 12m/6r/2ftr.

With all the changes to the game there are so many options now hard to settle on just one lol. So, I was trying to figure out some combos with sweet spots. After looking around 12m/6r/2-what ever seems to be the new thing. But as I was looking 11r/6m could work now that u can get master form with only 6 monk. Diff between 12monk n 11Ranger. Monk you get abundant step, improve evasion and higher fist (but should we be meleeing?). Ranger you get full twf line, 30Resist, a little more sp pts and all AA feats for free.

Now the big question. #1 self healing. lvl 3 pally gets Aura of courage, Divine health, Fear Immunity, lvl 7 monk gets Wholeness of Body to heal between fights. debating between these 2 atm. I would rely on LOH with twist of regen LOH or cocoon.
#2 combat archery - is this worth going for? It didn't work when i was an AA before.

Below is a quick first dry run thru an idea. I will be looking at another version where I go Helf 11r/6m/2 or 3 something else with a dilly of pally n dump dex.

Would appreciate feed back on ideas/adjustments. Looking into 2 or 3 FVS also. I like night shield and hate MM that much lol. not sure if spell craft works on AA arrows elements?


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.03
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 28 Lawful Good Human Male
(3 Paladin / 6 Monk / 11 Ranger / 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 408
Spell Points: 775

BAB: 18/18/23/28/28
Fortitude: 23
Reflex: 21
Will: 23

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28)
Strength 16 25
Dexterity 14 19
Constitution 14 19
Intelligence 8 13
Wisdom 16 30
Charisma 12 17

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 15
+5 Tome of Strength used at level 19

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 28)
Balance 6 35
Bluff 1 13
Concentration 6 37
Diplomacy 1 13
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 1 13
Heal 3 20
Hide 2 14
Intimidate 1 13
Jump 3 22
Listen 3 20
Move Silently 2 14
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 12
Search -1 12
Spellcraft -1 22
Spot 7 43
Swim 3 17
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device 3 25

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Artificer
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Bard
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Cleric
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Druid
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Favored Soul
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Sorcerer
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Wizard
Feat: (Human Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist
Feat: (Automatic) AC Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kama
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves
Feat: (Automatic) Flurry of Blows
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Handaxe
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Club
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Dagger
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Heavy Crossbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Light Crossbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Quarterstaff
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Unarmed
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) The Way of Air
Feat: (Automatic) The Way of Fire
Feat: (Automatic) The Way of Earth
Feat: (Automatic) The Way of Water
Feat: (Automatic) Unarmed Strike

Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Feat: (Automatic) Bow Strength
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Feat: (Automatic) Wild Empathy

Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
Feat: (Automatic) Rapid Shot
Feat: (Automatic) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 4 (Ranger)
Feat: (Automatic) Diehard

Level 5 (Ranger)
Feat: (Automatic) Precise Shot

Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Zen Archery
Feat: (Automatic) Archer's Focus
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
Feat: (Automatic) Meditation

Level 7 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Heroic Durability

Level 8 (Ranger)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Manyshot

Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light
Feat: (Automatic) Fast Movement
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves: Path of Harmonious Balance (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves: Path of Inevitable Dominion (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Still Mind

Level 10 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) Ki Strike: Magic
Feat: (Automatic) Slow Fall

Level 11 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) Purity of Body

Level 12 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Master of Forms
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Ten Thousand Stars
Feat: (Automatic) Adept of Forms

Level 13 (Paladin)
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Good
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Smite Evil

Level 14 (Paladin)
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Grace
Feat: (Automatic) Lay on Hands

Level 15 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Completionist
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Wild Empathy

Level 16 (Ranger)

Level 17 (Ranger)

Level 18 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Elf
Feat: (Selected) Grandmaster of Forms

Level 19 (Ranger)
Feat: (Automatic) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Precise Shot

Level 20 (Paladin)
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Courage
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Health
Feat: (Automatic) Fear Immunity
Enhancement: Human - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Human Adaptability: Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Sniper (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Sniper (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Human - Sniper (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Bastion of Purity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Protection from Tainted Creatures (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Smite Tainted Creature (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Skin (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Skin (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Skin (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Jade Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Dismissing Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Tomb of Jade (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Arcane Archer (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Morphic Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Metalline Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Conjure Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Energy of the Wild (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Energy of the Wild (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Energy of the Wild (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Force Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Force Arrows (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Inferno Shot (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Inferno Shot (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Inferno Shot (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Terror Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Terror Arrows (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Banishing Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Paralyzing Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Paralyzing Arrows (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Smiting Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Arrow of Slaying (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Shield of Whirling Steel (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Tempest (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Item Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Reaction (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Reaction (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Reaction (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Bleed Them Out (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Bleed Them Out (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Bleed Them Out (Rank 3)

Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical
Feat: (Automatic) Epic: Epic Skills

Level 22 (Epic)

Level 23 (Epic)

Level 24 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Arcane Prodigy

Level 25 (Epic)

Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Guardian Angel

Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Ruin

Level 28 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Doubleshot

Miow
12-02-2013, 09:52 AM
Just curious what does 3 pali give you over 12 rger

bree22
12-02-2013, 11:10 AM
Just curious what does 3 pali give you over 12 rger

lvl 3 pally gets Aura of courage, Divine health, Fear Immunity

lvl 12 ranger gets a 2nd lvl 3 spell and 15 sp pts and Aligned Arrows (4th of core abilities).

AtomicMew
12-03-2013, 12:25 AM
Level 3 benefits are worthless. You want to hit either 2 pally (cha to saves) or 4 pally (turn undead for divine might).

bree22
12-03-2013, 11:04 AM
Level 3 benefits are worthless. You want to hit either 2 pally (cha to saves) or 4 pally (turn undead for divine might).

yea that is what i was trying to figure out if lvl 3 pally or lvl 7 monk is better. also tossing around going back to 11r/9m for improve evasion or taking 2 fvs/clr n going helf n taking pally dill but tough there because then i have to put pts into cha to get pally dilly might be a waste of stat pts.

Arsont
12-03-2013, 10:30 PM
yea that is what i was trying to figure out if lvl 3 pally or lvl 7 monk is better. also tossing around going back to 11r/9m for improve evasion or taking 2 fvs/clr n going helf n taking pally dill but tough there because then i have to put pts into cha to get pally dilly might be a waste of stat pts.

Firstly, I'd like to apologize in advance if I seem patronizing or if I'm just rehashing things you already know. Since I'm not familiar with you or your toon, I'm going to try to keep my assumptions low, so please bear with me. That being said...

I'd suggest neither 3 pally nor 7 monk; 3 pally benefits are pretty weak. As noted earlier, you want 2 pally or 4 pally. While 7 monk is tempting for Wholeness of Body, I find that Cocoon makes it obsolete. If your goal is endgame, I'd stay away from 7 monk. I think 11/6/3 Ranger/Monk/Fvs or Cleric on a helf with pally dilly is your best bet; You could go 12 ranger, but really all that gets you is a couple minor spell benefits. 3 Cleric or FvS lets you pick up Divine Might and a couple other little goodies. I personally like FvS over cleric; More sp, more (Potential) uses of Divine Might and an extra +1 hit/damage from faith feats. Cleric does get "free" DM via turns, but depening on your playstyle there might not be enough turns. Both classes have their benefits though.


While you might think putting points in cha would be a waste, it's not really; With every cha mod, Divine Might is another +1 str, and +1 to saves with pally dilly, up to +5 (With max line). Assuming minimal cha investment, you can easily hit the 20 cha needed to cap out pally dilly (13+1 tome+6 item).

Let's play pretend. Assuming you want to pick up Combat Archery, pally dilly and have a decent 10k stars, it might look something like this:
13 str
16 dex (Enough for Combat Archery with +1 level and +4 tome)
14 con
8 int
16 wis
13 cha

While str seems low, you'll still be able to get it to a modest value:
13 base+6 level+1 exc+8 item+2 insight+5 primal+5 tome+2 rams+2 yugo+2 completionist-2 ocean=44
Add a gimpy +6 Divine Might and you should be able to hit 50 str easy. This isn't counting +9/10 str items, Alchemical/Tensor's, Titan's, +3 insightful, profane...there's plenty to go around.


On another note, looking at your epic feat selections...I'd suggest getting rid of Doubleshot and picking up either Perfect Two Weapon fighting or the thf variant if you have to choose from a primal feat. Otherwise, you could look at Spell Power:Positive or even Toughness. Reason being: Manyshot gives a -100% doubleshot chance for 70 seconds, starting at activation. 10k Stars does the same, but for 45 seconds. So depending on your rotation, you're going to be stuck with single-shot damage or melee (Might as well make use of those cleaves) for the downtime. Unless Turbine changes it, Doubleshot is pretty much ghostbaned for monkchers right now.

I'm assuming you took the sorc PL for the sp; 3 fvs should warrant dropping that in favor of something else. I'd suggest Combat Archery, which is currently WAI (+1[W], 2% dodge when ranged). I'd also suggest swapping Ruin for something; I find Ruin is weak without the spell power and metas to back it up. I'd highly suggest Empower Heal for the boost to Cocoon. Otherwise, Blinding Speed can be useful if you find yourself running solo or whatnot.

Anyhow, hopefully I've brought up something useful. I'll be glad to clarify if I've been vague on anything. Good luck with your build!

bree22
12-04-2013, 11:01 PM
[QUOTE=Arsont;5187447][color=lightblue]
Let's play pretend. Assuming you want to pick up Combat Archery, pally dilly and have a decent 10k stars, it might look something like this:
13 str
16 dex (Enough for Combat Archery with +1 level and +4 tome)
14 con
8 int
16 wis
13 cha

This is one of the things i was debating about also. My plan is to get Overwhelming Crit (OC) and was debating about CA. But it is tough to get both and also put pts into cha. Are you saying CA is better to have then OC? I have tier 5 fury so my Adrenaline regens. When i was an AA a few months back CA was broken so I haven't had a chance to see/feel it effects. I am assuming that it will be tough to get both and still maintain a high wisdom. and if I want to use pally/cha save then getting both OC & CA will be next to impossible. I only have +3 tome on each stat and a +5 on str.

As for epic feats I am really open to them because I haven't use any of them yet, being that i am only running from lvl 1-22 then TRing. (20-22 if to fill out some EDs and to finish off heroic sagas for skill tomes).

As for fvs over pally, it is one of the options i was looking at. I played with a 11r/6m/3rog yesterday and it was playing pretty nicely. I am starting to think those last 3 spots could be just a flavor thing, That player just relied on fast healing to stay alive.

Arsont
12-09-2013, 05:39 PM
[QUOTE=Arsont;5187447][color=lightblue]
Let's play pretend. Assuming you want to pick up Combat Archery, pally dilly and have a decent 10k stars, it might look something like this:
13 str
16 dex (Enough for Combat Archery with +1 level and +4 tome)
14 con
8 int
16 wis
13 cha

This is one of the things i was debating about also. My plan is to get Overwhelming Crit (OC) and was debating about CA. But it is tough to get both and also put pts into cha. Are you saying CA is better to have then OC? I have tier 5 fury so my Adrenaline regens. When i was an AA a few months back CA was broken so I haven't had a chance to see/feel it effects. I am assuming that it will be tough to get both and still maintain a high wisdom. and if I want to use pally/cha save then getting both OC & CA will be next to impossible. I only have +3 tome on each stat and a +5 on str.

As for epic feats I am really open to them because I haven't use any of them yet, being that i am only running from lvl 1-22 then TRing. (20-22 if to fill out some EDs and to finish off heroic sagas for skill tomes).

As for fvs over pally, it is one of the options i was looking at. I played with a 11r/6m/3rog yesterday and it was playing pretty nicely. I am starting to think those last 3 spots could be just a flavor thing, That player just relied on fast healing to stay alive.

The stat spread I listed is enough to get you pally dilly, Overwhelming Crit AND Combat Archery.

Str: 13 base+5 tome+6 levels=24 (Need 23 for OC)
Dex: 16 base+3 tome+2 levels=21 (Need 21 for CA)
Cha: 13 base (Last I tried, only your lv 1 stats apply to taking the dilly feat)

While 13 base str isn't MAX DIPS, it will let you get up around a sustainable 50 str with buffs and appropriate gear. Dex is the minimum required to qualify for CA. Wisdom is vital here; Ideally, you would have a +5 dex and wisdom tome, so you can use build/level-up points in wisdom instead, but you work with what you have. Even with a maxed 18 wisdom, you'd still be spending some level-ups in str, so you don't lose much here. Cha is miminum needed for pally dilly. You could dump charisma entirely if you weren't intrested in taking pally dilly, but with the current form of EE, I must suggest considering it. That being said, if you -were- to dump cha, it would still be worthwhile to take 3 fvs, for the Divine Might boost:

Cha: 8 base+2 tome+2 completionist+6 item+2 ship=20/+5 mod=+5 SUSTAINABLE str boost.

Anyhow. The goal in the base stats should be fristly to meet the bare minimum you need to qualify for any feats you want to take (After including tomes), then using the left over points to fill in gaps. As such, 13 str is the bare minimum (Since you already have a +5 str tome). Higher tomes=lower minimum=more build points/level-ups to spend somewhere else. Basically, you can easily fit in all three feats (OC, CA, Pally dilly) without totally gimping yourself.


You are correct in assuming that last 3 levels in this sort of split are for flavor; That being said, I'd advise against Rogue levels, unless you really wanted to do traps. You mentioned you played with a rogue variation of this build, and it relied on scrolls for healing. This is all fine and dandy, until you fail a concentration check. That's the main draw of Rejuvenation Cocoon; if has no concentration check (Another draw is the ability to use Empower Heal/Quicken on it for free). While leveling, this isn't as much of a deal, since in most cases if you fail a scroll you just try again. However, if you intend to run EE, this is a major deal, since you can take a lot of damage in a short amount of time. Here, failing a scroll can be death. Since you'll have a naturally high wisdom, you can easily pick up cleric dilly for scroll usage while leveling (Or fvs, if you plan on swapping to pally dilly at cap and didn't dump cha). So, if you aren't looking to do traps and don't trust scrolls to keep you alive (Like me), then I must again suggest looking at picking up 3 fvs levels. Same bab as rogue, better saves, a bit more hp, more useful enhancements for a ranged-focused build. I highly advise against taking actual paladin levels, since there's not much it gives you that you can't get from somewhere else. Also, 3 paladin doesn't give you Divine Might, or the other inherent weapon bonuses Fvs gives.


Finally, epic feats. I'm assuming you meant that, up until the time at which you would TR into this build, you have only been running to 20ish, and not that you would only run this build to 20ish. If it's the former, then read on. If it's the latter, please clarify so I know to discard everything 20+. In order not to completly rehash everything I previously posted, I'll just summarize:
I like OC, CA and Empower Heal as epic feats for this build. I'd suggest two of Perfect Two Weapon Fighting, Toughness, Epic Spell Power: Positive, Guardian Angel and Elusive Target as Epic Destiny feats.

Anyhow, hopefully I've helped a bit more. As always, let me know if I'm unclear or you'd like further insight on something.

bree22
12-16-2013, 10:25 AM
[QUOTE=bree22;5188835]


Finally, epic feats. I'm assuming you meant that, up until the time at which you would TR into this build, you have only been running to 20ish, and not that you would only run this build to 20ish. If it's the former, then read on. If it's the latter, please clarify so I know to discard everything 20+. In order not to completly rehash everything I previously posted, I'll just summarize:
I like OC, CA and Empower Heal as epic feats for this build. I'd suggest two of Perfect Two Weapon Fighting, Toughness, Epic Spell Power: Positive, Guardian Angel and Elusive Target as Epic Destiny feats.

Anyhow, hopefully I've helped a bit more. As always, let me know if I'm unclear or you'd like further insight on something.


I will run this up to 28 being that this will be my final life. I haven't ran any of my characters past 25/26 atm being that I have been working on my completionist. I am looking into the FVS vs Pally for the last 3- I was leaning pally for saves n self healing via LOHs with cocoon. I do like the idea of FVS for more damage. Who knows I might play both once i get there lol.

Arsont
12-16-2013, 10:55 PM
[QUOTE=Arsont;5193662]


I will run this up to 28 being that this will be my final life. I haven't ran any of my characters past 25/26 atm being that I have been working on my completionist. I am looking into the FVS vs Pally for the last 3- I was leaning pally for saves n self healing via LOHs with cocoon. I do like the idea of FVS for more damage. Who knows I might play both once i get there lol.

That's what I had assumed, but I figured I should make sure.

As previously noted, I'm biased towards 3 Fvs. Getting Divine Might at lv 1 FvS is nice (Getting DM period vs 3 pally), but the real kicker for me is opening access to Empower Heal. I'm not going to say Cocoon is useless without Empower Heal, but if you don't have it you'll be wanting to slot some nice devotion and be running with a good bit of amp. Reason being: Once the 150 hp shield goes away, the healing stops, so you want as much healing as possible while the shield lasts. That being said, having the actual Divine Grace from pally for saves is nice, but pally dilly is still +5. Guess it really would depend on if you have the ap to spend to pick up the full line.

While LoH are nice, quick heals, unless you twist in Endless LoH or run in Unyielding, I can't see them being that useful with only 3 pally levels. Turns wouldn't really be an issue, but you won't have to worry about that since pally doesn't get Turn Undead until lv 4.

Anyhow, as you said, who knows. I highly suggest 3 Fvs over pally though.

Good luck regardless of what you decide. Looking forward to hearing about it whenever you get around to this.

Vengenance
12-17-2013, 05:08 PM
[QUOTE=bree22;5200238]

That's what I had assumed, but I figured I should make sure.

As previously noted, I'm biased towards 3 Fvs. Getting Divine Might at lv 1 FvS is nice (Getting DM period vs 3 pally), but the real kicker for me is opening access to Empower Heal. I'm not going to say Cocoon is useless without Empower Heal, but if you don't have it you'll be wanting to slot some nice devotion and be running with a good bit of amp. Reason being: Once the 150 hp shield goes away, the healing stops, so you want as much healing as possible while the shield lasts. That being said, having the actual Divine Grace from pally for saves is nice, but pally dilly is still +5. Guess it really would depend on if you have the ap to spend to pick up the full line.

While LoH are nice, quick heals, unless you twist in Endless LoH or run in Unyielding, I can't see them being that useful with only 3 pally levels. Turns wouldn't really be an issue, but you won't have to worry about that since pally doesn't get Turn Undead until lv 4.

Anyhow, as you said, who knows. I highly suggest 3 Fvs over pally though.

Good luck regardless of what you decide. Looking forward to hearing about it whenever you get around to this.

I've been playing with different end game ranged builds and the one I like most is the 11 Ranger / 6 monk / 3 Pally Elf Version. While I agree 2 pally is best, another level in ranger is useless while the third level gets you fear immunity, aura of courage and divine health. 11 Ranger gets you 30 resists, GTWF, and IPS. Saves are critical at current end game so I'm not overly impressed with the 3 FVS version. For divine might I just twist in bane of undeath from pally sphere.

I played the a monk version (12 monk / 6 ranger / 2 pally) and a fighter version (12 Fighter / 6 monk / 2 Pally) both to 25 and wasn't as happy as I am with the ranger version. I went elf for the elven arcane archer enhancements + extra damage with longbows. With the elven enhancements I can unlock the tier 5 core abilities. I working on my final life now and will post it once I hit 28 but at level 23 I'm really liking it. My char is a completionist with 3 ranger, 3 monk and 3 fighter past lives.

Arsont
12-18-2013, 11:55 PM
[QUOTE=Arsont;5201159]

I've been playing with different end game ranged builds and the one I like most is the 11 Ranger / 6 monk / 3 Pally Elf Version. While I agree 2 pally is best, another level in ranger is useless while the third level gets you fear immunity, aura of courage and divine health. 11 Ranger gets you 30 resists, GTWF, and IPS. Saves are critical at current end game so I'm not overly impressed with the 3 FVS version. For divine might I just twist in bane of undeath from pally sphere.

I played the a monk version (12 monk / 6 ranger / 2 pally) and a fighter version (12 Fighter / 6 monk / 2 Pally) both to 25 and wasn't as happy as I am with the ranger version. I went elf for the elven arcane archer enhancements + extra damage with longbows. With the elven enhancements I can unlock the tier 5 core abilities. I working on my final life now and will post it once I hit 28 but at level 23 I'm really liking it. My char is a completionist with 3 ranger, 3 monk and 3 fighter past lives.

We are in accord, the best split for this is 11/6/3, but I still beg FvS over pally.

3 pally benefits are pretty much useless, IMO. Everything 3 pally gives can pretty much be covered by items or buffs. As perviously noted, 2 pally is really where it's at, for Divine Grace.

I think it'd be worth comparing an elven 3 pally splash to a helf 3 fvs splash a bit more in-depth. All the following ap totals will be inclusive, assuming you take just enough enhancements to unlock the item.

Assuming both builds are going to be almost exclusively ranged, and both are spending:
-32 in AA (Minimum needed for slayers)
-11 in Ninja Spy (Minimum needed for Shadow Fade)
-17 in Racial (Elf only needs to spend 14 to unlock AA, Helf needs to spend 16 for full +5 dilly bonus)
=60 mandatory ap (Elf minimum could be 57, standardizing for), 20 free ap.


3 pally: 3/1/1 base saves, +30 hp (d10), +1 saves base aura. +1 to-hit w/ bows (SF)
-KotC gives +2/4 saves vs EO/Undead (Core 1/2), +10% heal amp (12 ap). KotC also gives DM (11 ap for tier 3), but as noted, would require a twist or taking the Turn Undead feat.
-Defender tree gives +3 LoH (3 ap), +6 saves boost with no-fail on a 1 (6 ap), +3 to saves aura (13 ap in Defender tree). Defender also gives +1 hp/ap spent.

3 Fvs: 3/3/3 base saves, +27 hp (d8). +2/+1 to-hit/damage w/bows (SF)
-Warpriest gives DR 5/ (Core 2), DM (3 ap), +15 hp (3 ap), +3 enhancement bonus to bows (12 ap), +10 PRR (8 ap), +4 Hit/Damage boost (8 ap, can be improved to give +4 saves for a total 11 ap. Can be further improved to give 15% energy absorbtion for total 14 ap).
-AoV gives +3 saves vs magic (3 ap).

As you can see, it's a lot more ap intensive for the paladin split in order to pick up everything you might want. I would probably be tempted to go with 13 ap in KotC to pick up the 10% amp, put 4 ap in Defender for the extra LoH, 1 point to Shintao for another 10% amp, a point in DWS for the first core, then the rest into AA.

For a Fvs split, I'd be tempted to spend 13 ap in Warpriest and get full DM, +15 hp and +3 to bows, then 1 in DWS and then 6 in Shintao for the second core. I'm not 100% sure what "saves vs magic" really means; I'm assuming it means all spells and probably some traps. Depending on what all it applies to, I'd be willing to drop some points out of shintao.

So enhancements are tight, but doable on both builds.


Now, the main point in considering 3 pally: saves.

A fvs splash w/ pally dilly is going to be at 8/8/8. A pally splash will be at 3/1/1, or 4/2/2 with aura, + cha mod. So yes, while a pally will have higher saves, you'd need at least a 24 cha to beat the fvs splash (More if the +3 from AoV is reliable). Shouldn't be too hard; 9 base+3 tome+2 completionist+10 item=24. Couple ways it could be changed, but you need to beat 24. Still doable. However, it begs the question: How much improved is it really going to be vs a Fvs splash? And at what cost?

I guess I just wanted to give a little more insight as to why I'm so fond of the fvs splash.

TheLegendOfAra
12-19-2013, 12:42 AM
Here's my current take on the 11Ranger/6Monk/3Pali split:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.03
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)


Level 28 Lawful Good Human Male
(3 Paladin \ 6 Monk \ 11 Ranger \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 370
Spell Points: 349
BAB: 18\18\23\28\28
Fortitude: 24
Reflex: 20
Will: 23


Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28)
Strength 17 25
Dexterity 9 13
Constitution 12 16
Intelligence 8 12
Wisdom 16 27
Charisma 15 20


Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 15
+4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 15
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 15
+4 Tome of Intelligence used at level 15
+4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 15
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 15
+5 Tome of Strength used at level 19
+5 Tome of Wisdom used at level 19
+5 Tome of Charisma used at level 19

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 28)
Balance 1 22
Bluff 2 13
Concentration 5 34
Diplomacy 2 13
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 2 13
Heal 7 39
Hide -1 9
Intimidate 2 13
Jump 3 17
Listen 3 16
Move Silently -1 9
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 9
Search -1 9
Spellcraft -1 9
Spot 7 30
Swim 3 15
Tumble 1 26
Use Magic Device 4 24

Level 1 (Ranger)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Cleave
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Giant
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack




Level 2 (Ranger)




Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot




Level 4 (Ranger)




Level 5 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Dragon




Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave




Level 7 (Paladin)
Feat: (Deity) Follower of the Silver Flame




Level 8 (Paladin)




Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons




Level 10 (Ranger)




Level 11 (Ranger)




Level 12 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons




Level 13 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider




Level 14 (Ranger)




Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Precision
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Zen Archery




Level 16 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Handed Fighting




Level 17 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness




Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting




Level 19 (Monk)




Level 20 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Ten Thousand Stars




Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Master of Forms




Level 22 (Epic)




Level 23 (Epic)




Level 24 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical




Level 25 (Epic)




Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting




Level 27 (Epic)




Level 28 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Human - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Human Adaptability: Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Action Surge: Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Action Surge: Strength (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Human - Action Surge: Strength (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Action Surge: Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Action Surge: Charisma (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Human - Action Surge: Charisma (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Human - Action Surge: Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Action Surge: Constitution (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Arcane Archer (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Morphic Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Conjure Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Energy of the Wild (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Energy of the Wild (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Dispelling Shot (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Dispelling Shot (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Dispelling Shot (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Force Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Force Arrows (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Force Arrows (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Inferno Shot (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Inferno Shot (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Inferno Shot (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Terror Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Paralyzing Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Rgr) - Arrow of Slaying (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Shield of Whirling Steel (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Reaction (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Reaction (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Improved Reaction (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Whirling Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Haste Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tempest (Rgr) - Haste Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Hunter of the Dead I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Shadow Veil (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Fists of Iron (Rank 1)





A couple lives ago when 25 was the cap I ran a similar build, but with 3Arti(Which was an amazing split IMO at the time, not sure about now.)
The thing I love about Ranger splits compared to any other is the versatility and having so many options on the same build.

Because I like having so many options I picked up THF feats, and spent 2 epic feats on melee options, and OC, which would help my ranged as well. I didn't bother taking CA, so that made the stats a bit easier to work with, but if you won't be melee'ing much, you could easily rearrange things to fit your style better.




As previously noted, I'm biased towards 3 Fvs. Getting Divine Might at lv 1 FvS is nice (Getting DM period vs 3 pally), but the real kicker for me is opening access to Empower Heal. I'm not going to say Cocoon is useless without Empower Heal, but if you don't have it you'll be wanting to slot some nice devotion and be running with a good bit of amp. Reason being: Once the 150 hp shield goes away, the healing stops, so you want as much healing as possible while the shield lasts. That being said, having the actual Divine Grace from pally for saves is nice, but pally dilly is still +5. Guess it really would depend on if you have the ap to spend to pick up the full line.

Anyhow, as you said, who knows. I highly suggest 3 Fvs over pally though.


While it's true 3 Pali, 7 Monk, or 12 Ranger don't offer much to the split, Pali is the obvious splash choice over anything else.
Dile's are dead now, and simply not worth the AP investment on 99% of builds. And the Pali Dile has always been an extremely poor version of an actual pali splash.

I played with it on my 16Sorc/2Monk/2Fighter and it wasn't worth it.
Same with my 11Ranger/6Monk/3Arti life, I dumped it for Rogue ASAP.
+5 Saves simply doesn't compare to a possible +15~

In the end, 2Pali is IMO the best split option, and you have a free level to do with whatever you want. And out of the three options, 3 Pali is probably the best.

Also, Ranger levels alone open access to Empower Healing, and with Human as your race you can get plenty of heal amp. Making CLW/CMW/Heal Scrolls all you'll ever need. But Cocoon is added on top of those anyways.


I would highly recommend Human, or Elf as a race. Human for Dual boosting and saving AP in other trees, Heal Amp, and +3/+4Str/Con/Cha, As well as plenty of ranged sneak attack.
Elf for displacement.

Personally, I just don't see what any other /3 split offers that will stand against a pali's boost to saves, if you're playing in EE.
Not to mention with my split I was looking at something like 18 Uses of DM or so? More than enough to make it from one shrine to the next, and not a big deal if you run out, since it's really just a bonus on top of your already awesome DPS.

sephiroth1084
12-19-2013, 03:14 AM
Personally, I find that a minimum of 11 AP in Deepwood Stalker is a necessity for Sniper's Shot. It's effective as a minor defensive ability (turn something around as it's swinging, shooting, or casting at you, gain some distance, etc...) in addition to enabling Sneak Attack 2/3 of the time, and itself being a decent damage ability (+2 to threat range and multiplier is pretty nice). That you're also getting another 10 meters on your Point Blank Shot/Sneak Attack range, +20 Positive Spell Power, and +2d6 Sneak Attack (assuming you spend some of the requisite points in Stealthy III), that's a pretty nice return, I think.

Then you need 8 AP in Henshin for passive Ki regeneration.

32 minimum in AA, but really, 33, 35, or 37, since the other tier 5s are pretty good (Moonbow being the weakest of the 4).

1 in Shintao for 5% healing amp and Positive SP.

That's 55 AP spent before looking at anything else.

I'd vote for 4 AP in Ninja Spy for +3% Dodge (Shadow Fade isn't really usable if you're trying to keep up Ki for 10K Stars unless you've got multiple sources of passive Ki regen, or are meleeing between Manyshot and 10K).

Personally, I find the Elven AA to be rather expensive--you're sinking 4 AP just to unlock the tree, in addition to the prerequisite 10 AP in the elf tree (pretty good investment). Plus, the AA Core 5 and 6 are awful. You're never going to get any use out of the doubleshot on a monkcher.

A benefit of 12 ranger is that it would allow you to hit the DWS and AA Core 4s for +1d6 SA, +5 meters to PBS/SA range, +10 Pos SP, and Aligned Arrows (nice in that it allows you ultimate freedom in bow selection, and in red augment slotting, as you can combine any metal-type arrows with Aligned to bypass virtually all DR in the game, unless you need Blunt or Slashing). Not a huge draw, I think, but a point to consider.

On the 12 monk front, Improved Evasion is very useful, as is Abundant Step (sometimes you really need it, and sometimes it's the only way to accomplish certain tasks), +10% movement speed, and Diamond Body (mediocre).

Half-elf 12 ranger/6 monk/2 favored soul with the paladin dilly may be the best way to go.

Also, for starting stats, if you're going monkcher, and want Overwhelming Critical, assuming you have the tomes, I'd go (before racial modifiers):

Str 16 +5 tome +2 levels =23 for OC
Dex 16 +5 tome = 21 for Combat Archery
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 16 +5 levels
Cha 8 +3 tome +6 enhancement +1 exceptional +2 ship +2 insight = 22 (enough to fill out the dilly, and +3 damage if you're using Divine Might)

On an elf, you can change those to:
Str 16 +2 levels
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 9
Wis 17 +5 levels
Cha 8

On a half-orc:
Str 18 +5 tome =23 OC
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 6
Wis 16 +7 levels
Cha 6

[EDIT] Oops, forgot paladin dilly requires a 13 Cha. Hmm...that hurts if you want OC and CA.

Takllin
12-19-2013, 03:27 AM
I am currently running a 12 Monk/6 Ranger/2 Paladin Half Elf build with the Cleric Dille on my main, and it's an awesome build. I personally don't see a reason to dump dex, or go mostly ranger unless you don't have +3 tomes or higher. I grabbed OC, CA and Improved MA with my build, but I also went mostly DWS instead of AA. It is more sustained DPS imo, instead of the burst with slayer arrows, but I also use Shirardi not Fury unless it is a raid.

Having abundant step, improved evasion + martial arts is awesome, and the only build that beats it would be a Bladeforged with weapon attachment and improved power attack. I just personally refuse to turn all my characters into an OP race.

sephiroth1084
12-19-2013, 03:33 AM
I am currently running a 12 Monk/6 Ranger/2 Paladin Half Elf build with the Cleric Dille on my main, and it's an awesome build. I personally don't see a reason to dump dex, or go mostly ranger unless you don't have +3 tomes or higher. I grabbed OC, CA and Improved MA with my build, but I also went mostly DWS instead of AA. It is more sustained DPS imo, instead of the burst with slayer arrows, but I also use Shirardi not Fury unless it is a raid.

Having abundant step, improved evasion + martial arts is awesome, and the only build that beats it would be a Bladeforged with weapon attachment and improved power attack. I just personally refuse to turn all my characters into an OP race.

Uh, last I read, Improved Martial Arts was not working on bows. Has that changed? Can you test it? The easiest way would be to grab a mundane bow, reset your enhancements jump into an ED that isn't adding anything to your damage, figure out what your total bonus is, and what the minimum damage you could deal with and without IMA is, and plink the training dummy for a few hundred shots, checking to see if you ever dip below the w/IMA figure.

What good would Bladeforged do? Again, from what I've read, Improved Power Attack doesn't work with Heavy Draw (probably not WAI).

Also, while DWS is higher sustained damage, it isn't by all that much, and Slayer Arrows are dramatically better than anything DWS gets at tier V, even if you aren't in FotW. That it can crit is a big deal, and that's ignoring Improved Elemental Arrows, which can add quite a bit to what you're doing).

TheLegendOfAra
12-19-2013, 05:20 AM
I am currently running a 12 Monk/6 Ranger/2 Paladin Half Elf build with the Cleric Dille on my main, and it's an awesome build. I personally don't see a reason to dump dex, or go mostly ranger unless you don't have +3 tomes or higher. I grabbed OC, CA and Improved MA with my build, but I also went mostly DWS instead of AA. It is more sustained DPS imo, instead of the burst with slayer arrows, but I also use Shirardi not Fury unless it is a raid.

Having abundant step, improved evasion + martial arts is awesome, and the only build that beats it would be a Bladeforged with weapon attachment and improved power attack. I just personally refuse to turn all my characters into an OP race.

Because having the exact same boring build as every other player on the server gets old really quick? Monk builds aren't as fun? Helf is ugly as hell?
Because Cleric Dile is a waste of AP now, just like all other Dile's?

Everything the monk split has, the Ranger split can get?(Almost everything anyways.)

IMA didn't work with bows the last time I tested it

Takllin
12-19-2013, 12:44 PM
Uh, last I read, Improved Martial Arts was not working on bows. Has that changed? Can you test it? The easiest way would be to grab a mundane bow, reset your enhancements jump into an ED that isn't adding anything to your damage, figure out what your total bonus is, and what the minimum damage you could deal with and without IMA is, and plink the training dummy for a few hundred shots, checking to see if you ever dip below the w/IMA figure.

What good would Bladeforged do? Again, from what I've read, Improved Power Attack doesn't work with Heavy Draw (probably not WAI).

Also, while DWS is higher sustained damage, it isn't by all that much, and Slayer Arrows are dramatically better than anything DWS gets at tier V, even if you aren't in FotW. That it can crit is a big deal, and that's ignoring Improved Elemental Arrows, which can add quite a bit to what you're doing).
I don't have time to test it now but I can later on.

Bladeforged get Weapon Attachment, adding another .5[w] and I've heard to the contrary about IPA from a friend who is running a BF monkcher. I've also heard from a seperate friend that IMA works on bows, but I'll test it regardless.

Personally I just didnt like a lot of the stuff in the middle of the AA tree, and it was either go a bit into DWS and AA or mostly in one and very few in another. I played it with mostly AA, little DWS for a while, but now I am mostly in DWS with a little in AA.

Zoda
12-19-2013, 02:20 PM
I am currently running a 12 Monk/6 Ranger/2 Paladin Half Elf build with the Cleric Dille on my main, and it's an awesome build. I personally don't see a reason to dump dex, or go mostly ranger unless you don't have +3 tomes or higher. I grabbed OC, CA and Improved MA with my build, but I also went mostly DWS instead of AA. It is more sustained DPS imo, instead of the burst with slayer arrows, but I also use Shirardi not Fury unless it is a raid.

Having abundant step, improved evasion + martial arts is awesome, and the only build that beats it would be a Bladeforged with weapon attachment and improved power attack. I just personally refuse to turn all my characters into an OP race.

And I was sitting here thinking that you play a centered BF kensei!

On topic: my monkcher is 12R/6M/2P Bladeforged atm (I found 11/6/3 displeasing to look at lol, I just dumped the diesease immunity) and it is a major ez button toon, when I have the time, it is usually the toon to do my daily e/e Tracker's Trap and Break in the Ice solo runs for the easy loot (even though it is probably still faster on my blitzer). I play in DWS/shiradi as well for most stuff that I do, and I noticed/tested that imp BF power attack is not working on Heavy Draw (which is sad because that was one of the factors for me to go BF aside from the obvious). One very nice thing about this is that I have 800 SP without any SP gear, so I can keep the recons going for pretty much forever without chugging pots (or at least longer than most quests would require me to).

The greatest benefit from going BF for endgame players (Stormhorns) is the extra fort in my opionion, as not dying to random shadar-kai crits every once in a while gives me a feeling of safety.

Another huge thing is that you free up a twist slot by going BF (no coccoon required, neither Brace if you'd use that - I did not though when I was fleshie).

Weapon Attachment is very nice, since after scrolling a TS/GH you barely ever want to switch from your bow.

All in all I think BF is a tiny bit less dps than a fleshie with both OC and CA (I dump dex on mine, so no CA), but the extra fort, the immunities and the ez button healing are making up for it. Of course there are some extreme situations where being fleshie would be better, but those are very rare imo.

On the DWS/AA topic: DWS gets +3 favored damage that you probably wouldn't pick up if you go tier 5 in AA and it is very easy to cover the endgame with the 4 favored enemies you get (human, orc, gnoll, giant), and I'm loving the improved archer's focus stance for boss fights (usually some1/myself with recons can tank or I can find a safe spot). Then again, I'm not playing in Fury, like most monkcher players (my main is a melee monk with full ranged capability and I play it in LD, and my archer is shiradi), so that can be a huge factor in me favoring DWS.

Takllin
12-19-2013, 04:56 PM
And I was sitting here thinking that you play a centered BF kensei!

On topic: my monkcher is 12R/6M/2P Bladeforged atm (I found 11/6/3 displeasing to look at lol, I just dumped the diesease immunity) and it is a major ez button toon, when I have the time, it is usually the toon to do my daily e/e Tracker's Trap and Break in the Ice solo runs for the easy loot (even though it is probably still faster on my blitzer). I play in DWS/shiradi as well for most stuff that I do, and I noticed/tested that imp BF power attack is not working on Heavy Draw (which is sad because that was one of the factors for me to go BF aside from the obvious). One very nice thing about this is that I have 800 SP without any SP gear, so I can keep the recons going for pretty much forever without chugging pots (or at least longer than most quests would require me to).

The greatest benefit from going BF for endgame players (Stormhorns) is the extra fort in my opionion, as not dying to random shadar-kai crits every once in a while gives me a feeling of safety.

Another huge thing is that you free up a twist slot by going BF (no coccoon required, neither Brace if you'd use that - I did not though when I was fleshie).

Weapon Attachment is very nice, since after scrolling a TS/GH you barely ever want to switch from your bow.

All in all I think BF is a tiny bit less dps than a fleshie with both OC and CA (I dump dex on mine, so no CA), but the extra fort, the immunities and the ez button healing are making up for it. Of course there are some extreme situations where being fleshie would be better, but those are very rare imo.

On the DWS/AA topic: DWS gets +3 favored damage that you probably wouldn't pick up if you go tier 5 in AA and it is very easy to cover the endgame with the 4 favored enemies you get (human, orc, gnoll, giant), and I'm loving the improved archer's focus stance for boss fights (usually some1/myself with recons can tank or I can find a safe spot). Then again, I'm not playing in Fury, like most monkcher players (my main is a melee monk with full ranged capability and I play it in LD, and my archer is shiradi), so that can be a huge factor in me favoring DWS.
Yeahhhhh but hes being TRd as soon as I can be bothered to cap him and work on a new build to play him with. I've been having too much fun with Tokun. I've just been running daily von3s when I get bored so he is slowly making his way to 28, 800k left now I think.

I did forget to mention the expanded Archers Focus which is awesome, I'm hitting 140-200 an arrow while using it, the upper end is typically with +2/3[w] attacks. And those numbers get a lot higher when they are helpless. I've still got a lot of gear left to slot as well so I should be around 160-220 once I fit him with level appropriate gear.

sephiroth1084
12-19-2013, 06:22 PM
I don't have time to test it now but I can later on.

Bladeforged get Weapon Attachment, adding another .5[w] and I've heard to the contrary about IPA from a friend who is running a BF monkcher. I've also heard from a seperate friend that IMA works on bows, but I'll test it regardless.

Personally I just didnt like a lot of the stuff in the middle of the AA tree, and it was either go a bit into DWS and AA or mostly in one and very few in another. I played it with mostly AA, little DWS for a while, but now I am mostly in DWS with a little in AA.

When the new enhancements rolled out I went mostly DWS with a mix of AA, because I had been looking forward to DWS--I like the idea of that better than AA (always have...back in the day, I stuck to the awful Sniper's Shot for a looong time before caving and swapping to AA), then changed over to mostly AA with a big chunk of DWS and liked it much better. Now, I tend to have only 11 AP in DWS--enough to just get Sniper's Shot, or 13 if I take +1 Wis--and around 37 AP in AA.

Even when I was still in Shiradi, I found Slayer Arrows, Improved Shock Arrows (Vulnerability), Inferno Shot, Paralyzing Arrows, to be better than anything DWS was really offering. I wish they'd do a little work on the enhancements in DWS 3, 4 and 5...Head Shot doesn't need to have such a long cooldown, Aimed Shot is kind of underwhelming, as is Improved Archer's Focus, and Favored Accuracy is too expensive at +2 per rank just to unlock Favored Damage.

I find the Archer's Focus stuff kind of underwhelming, because I very rarely find myself able to stand still long enough to build up and maintain even a 15 stack with any regularity. I really liked Leg Shot, but not enough to spend the addition 7-9 points in the tree to pick it up.

sephiroth1084
12-19-2013, 06:36 PM
Bladeforged huh? What do the stats look like on that with the -2 Dex and Wis? Do you dump Dex and Combat Archery, getting the rest of your archery feats from ranger 12? What does your Wis end up at?

Weapon Attachment, in that situation, ends up merely ameliorating the loss of Combat Archery (+.5W vs. +1W). What's your Dodge looking like at cap? And what gear do you end up with?

Having Reconstruct on the cheap, and every 6 seconds looks impressive, and freeing up a twist would also be nice.

Zoda
12-20-2013, 08:25 AM
Bladeforged huh? What do the stats look like on that with the -2 Dex and Wis? Do you dump Dex and Combat Archery, getting the rest of your archery feats from ranger 12? What does your Wis end up at?

Weapon Attachment, in that situation, ends up merely ameliorating the loss of Combat Archery (+.5W vs. +1W). What's your Dodge looking like at cap? And what gear do you end up with?

Having Reconstruct on the cheap, and every 6 seconds looks impressive, and freeing up a twist would also be nice.

I dump dex and combat archery, my wisdom is 48 (50 with pot) at the end with +4 tome and I do take OC. I can't look at my dodge atm, because Argo is down (!!!). Gear is pretty standard monkcher gear, just docent instead of robe, I have +11 and +2 insightful wis items atm (Livewood Core is also an option for BF, but I don't think it worths dropping the black scale).

When I designed the build, I was really counting with the BF imp pa line working on Heavy Draw (as per HD's description), but it doesn't, so I may not go for the same build in the reflection of that now, but the build works nice as it is, and the minimal dps loss is very well compensated by the boost in survivability (and I love Power of the Forge too). My monk archer is not my main, and its build hasn't been updated since u11, I just wanted to get another ez button EE farmer/soloer with minimal effort, and for that purpose, I think Bladeforged is ideal (I only have 3 ranger and 2 monk past lives on it, would want to grind pally PLs for fleshie at least, probably arti too).

Vengenance
12-21-2013, 07:12 PM
[QUOTE=Vengenance;5202094]

We are in accord, the best split for this is 11/6/3, but I still beg FvS over pally.

3 pally benefits are pretty much useless, IMO. Everything 3 pally gives can pretty much be covered by items or buffs. As perviously noted, 2 pally is really where it's at, for Divine Grace.

I think it'd be worth comparing an elven 3 pally splash to a helf 3 fvs splash a bit more in-depth. All the following ap totals will be inclusive, assuming you take just enough enhancements to unlock the item.

Assuming both builds are going to be almost exclusively ranged, and both are spending:
-32 in AA (Minimum needed for slayers)
-11 in Ninja Spy (Minimum needed for Shadow Fade)
-17 in Racial (Elf only needs to spend 14 to unlock AA, Helf needs to spend 16 for full +5 dilly bonus)
=60 mandatory ap (Elf minimum could be 57, standardizing for), 20 free ap.


3 pally: 3/1/1 base saves, +30 hp (d10), +1 saves base aura. +1 to-hit w/ bows (SF)
-KotC gives +2/4 saves vs EO/Undead (Core 1/2), +10% heal amp (12 ap). KotC also gives DM (11 ap for tier 3), but as noted, would require a twist or taking the Turn Undead feat.
-Defender tree gives +3 LoH (3 ap), +6 saves boost with no-fail on a 1 (6 ap), +3 to saves aura (13 ap in Defender tree). Defender also gives +1 hp/ap spent.

3 Fvs: 3/3/3 base saves, +27 hp (d8). +2/+1 to-hit/damage w/bows (SF)
-Warpriest gives DR 5/ (Core 2), DM (3 ap), +15 hp (3 ap), +3 enhancement bonus to bows (12 ap), +10 PRR (8 ap), +4 Hit/Damage boost (8 ap, can be improved to give +4 saves for a total 11 ap. Can be further improved to give 15% energy absorbtion for total 14 ap).
-AoV gives +3 saves vs magic (3 ap).

As you can see, it's a lot more ap intensive for the paladin split in order to pick up everything you might want. I would probably be tempted to go with 13 ap in KotC to pick up the 10% amp, put 4 ap in Defender for the extra LoH, 1 point to Shintao for another 10% amp, a point in DWS for the first core, then the rest into AA.

For a Fvs split, I'd be tempted to spend 13 ap in Warpriest and get full DM, +15 hp and +3 to bows, then 1 in DWS and then 6 in Shintao for the second core. I'm not 100% sure what "saves vs magic" really means; I'm assuming it means all spells and probably some traps. Depending on what all it applies to, I'd be willing to drop some points out of shintao.

So enhancements are tight, but doable on both builds.


Now, the main point in considering 3 pally: saves.

A fvs splash w/ pally dilly is going to be at 8/8/8. A pally splash will be at 3/1/1, or 4/2/2 with aura, + cha mod. So yes, while a pally will have higher saves, you'd need at least a 24 cha to beat the fvs splash (More if the +3 from AoV is reliable). Shouldn't be too hard; 9 base+3 tome+2 completionist+10 item=24. Couple ways it could be changed, but you need to beat 24. Still doable. However, it begs the question: How much improved is it really going to be vs a Fvs splash? And at what cost?

I guess I just wanted to give a little more insight as to why I'm so fond of the fvs splash.

My saves will be better with a pally splash than with a FVS splash. At 25 with only a +7 Char Item I'm at a 30 Cha and should be ~36 when I hit 28, which would be +6 higher on saves than with a FVS splash. As soon as I cap I'll post the build with final numbers.

bree22
12-29-2013, 10:45 AM
[QUOTE=Arsont;5203238]

My saves will be better with a pally splash than with a FVS splash. At 25 with only a +7 Char Item I'm at a 30 Cha and should be ~36 when I hit 28, which would be +6 higher on saves than with a FVS splash. As soon as I cap I'll post the build with final numbers.

Are the last 3 core abilities worth it or needed? The only reason I asked was with 11 ranger you have access to tier 5 AA and DWS trees.

Vengenance
01-07-2014, 05:59 PM
[QUOTE=Vengenance;5206069]

Are the last 3 core abilities worth it or needed? The only reason I asked was with 11 ranger you have access to tier 5 AA and DWS trees.

My Ranger is currently level 28 and mostly complete now (still working on a few gear items). My version is Elf and I use the eleven arcane archer enhancements and not the ranger enhancements. I get everything later but I get everything including Tier 5 core abilities at level 25. At 28 my saves are all over 60. My wisdom is 42-46 depending on stance for 10K stars. Strength can be self-buffed to ~60 using divine might. I'll post the build as is later this week, pretty sure I have everything laid out in excel from my last Epic TR.

UurlockYgmeov
01-07-2014, 06:41 PM
Firstly, I'd like to apologize in advance if I seem patronizing or if I'm just rehashing things you already know. Since I'm not familiar with you or your toon, I'm going to try to keep my assumptions low, so please bear with me. That being said...

I'd suggest neither 3 pally nor 7 monk; 3 pally benefits are pretty weak. As noted earlier, you want 2 pally or 4 pally. While 7 monk is tempting for Wholeness of Body, I find that Cocoon makes it obsolete. If your goal is endgame, I'd stay away from 7 monk. I think 11/6/3 Ranger/Monk/Fvs or Cleric on a helf with pally dilly is your best bet; You could go 12 ranger, but really all that gets you is a couple minor spell benefits. 3 Cleric or FvS lets you pick up Divine Might and a couple other little goodies. I personally like FvS over cleric; More sp, more (Potential) uses of Divine Might and an extra +1 hit/damage from faith feats. Cleric does get "free" DM via turns, but depening on your playstyle there might not be enough turns. Both classes have their benefits though.


While you might think putting points in cha would be a waste, it's not really; With every cha mod, Divine Might is another +1 str, and +1 to saves with pally dilly, up to +5 (With max line). Assuming minimal cha investment, you can easily hit the 20 cha needed to cap out pally dilly (13+1 tome+6 item).

Let's play pretend. Assuming you want to pick up Combat Archery, pally dilly and have a decent 10k stars, it might look something like this:
13 str
16 dex (Enough for Combat Archery with +1 level and +4 tome)
14 con
8 int
16 wis
13 cha

While str seems low, you'll still be able to get it to a modest value:
13 base+6 level+1 exc+8 item+2 insight+5 primal+5 tome+2 rams+2 yugo+2 completionist-2 ocean=44
Add a gimpy +6 Divine Might and you should be able to hit 50 str easy. This isn't counting +9/10 str items, Alchemical/Tensor's, Titan's, +3 insightful, profane...there's plenty to go around.


On another note, looking at your epic feat selections...I'd suggest getting rid of Doubleshot and picking up either Perfect Two Weapon fighting or the thf variant if you have to choose from a primal feat. Otherwise, you could look at Spell Power:Positive or even Toughness. Reason being: Manyshot gives a -100% doubleshot chance for 70 seconds, starting at activation. 10k Stars does the same, but for 45 seconds. So depending on your rotation, you're going to be stuck with single-shot damage or melee (Might as well make use of those cleaves) for the downtime. Unless Turbine changes it, Doubleshot is pretty much ghostbaned for monkchers right now.

I'm assuming you took the sorc PL for the sp; 3 fvs should warrant dropping that in favor of something else. I'd suggest Combat Archery, which is currently WAI (+1[W], 2% dodge when ranged). I'd also suggest swapping Ruin for something; I find Ruin is weak without the spell power and metas to back it up. I'd highly suggest Empower Heal for the boost to Cocoon. Otherwise, Blinding Speed can be useful if you find yourself running solo or whatnot.

Anyhow, hopefully I've brought up something useful. I'll be glad to clarify if I've been vague on anything. Good luck with your build!

just a thought - FvS - Battlepriest with Silver Flame as Diety - Longbows become favored weapons and with a few enhancements you get divine might and up to +30 spell power (favored weapon tier 2) and a stacking +3 enhancement to longbows

sephiroth1084
01-07-2014, 07:04 PM
[QUOTE=Vengenance;5206069]

Are the last 3 core abilities worth it or needed? The only reason I asked was with 11 ranger you have access to tier 5 AA and DWS trees.

Not really. Aligned Arrows from AA is nice, but not necessary, since we have ways to do that (Good red augment, Holy Arrows, Flame Touched Arrows, Silver Flame Arrows, buff from an artificer). The problem used to be hitting 2 types of DR, but with Metalline and Morphic Arrows, that isn't really a problem. Then Shadow arrows and the capstone are worthless on a monkcher because you'll basically never be seeing doubleshots unless you're being lazy about 10K Stars and Manyshot.

This is why I wouldn't bother spending the extra 4 AP to unlock Elven AA--you just aren't gaining anything truly significant for that extra AP you're spending.

As for DWS, I think the last 3 cores look pretty good, but they just don't stack up against the benefits of 6 monk/2 or 3 something else.

Raiderone
01-22-2014, 10:32 AM
Definitely Elf or Half-elf for the improved archery in the Core Enhancements. I think going 11 ranger/ 6 monk/3 pally versus 12monk/6ranger/2 pally is just a matter of personal choice.

You want to have more skills, then 11r/6m/3p. If you want more versatility in dps, then 12m/6r/2p. I like 3pally but wouldnt take it in the 12monk build.

You might even want to the 11ranger build to be 3fvs for longbow enhancement boost. Maybe even Pally Dili for those extra saves, if needed. But focusing only on AA not TWF.
I was even thinking of a 9monk/7ranger/4pally or 4 fvs...

bree22
03-12-2014, 11:33 PM
So I finished my last life on 1/26/14, but had to take a month off for work. I finally have time to do my final life. I decided to do 11ranger/6monk/3fvs H-elf with Polly dilly. I ended getting +5 tomes for str, dex and was, so I can take O/C and C/A. I started with 16 str and dex and 14 was. I will put 2levelups into str and rest into wis. I will update when I get higher up. I will post the build in detail in few days.

bree22
02-01-2015, 11:56 AM
returning to the game on a limited basis. I had to take 5 months off for RL and really don't have as much time to play like I use to.

So my question is this, is my 11r/6m/3fvs h-elf pally dil still viable? Breee is still a completionist til a new class is added and then i will have to do that life when it is time.

AbyssalMage
04-24-2015, 01:29 AM
returning to the game on a limited basis. I had to take 5 months off for RL and really don't have as much time to play like I use to.

So my question is this, is my 11r/6m/3fvs h-elf pally dil still viable? Breee is still a completionist til a new class is added and then i will have to do that life when it is time.
Yes, its still viable.

unbongwah
04-24-2015, 09:47 AM
So my question is this, is my 11r/6m/3fvs h-elf pally dil still viable?
While it's still viable, the latest FotM among monkchers is monk 6 / pal 14 for Holy Sword (+1 crit range & multiplier). Because of feat shortage, there's no room for Bow Str, so this either needs to be an elf with Grace for DEX to dmg or elf/HE with Harper for INT to dmg. See this build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/117232-Request-a-Build-Get-a-Build?p=5583148&viewfull=1#post5583148) as one example.