PDA

View Full Version : Eldritch Knight potential is not epic significant. EK makes your toon WORSE!



Twinkly
11-29-2013, 10:56 AM
Taking EK on a melee makes your melee worse (If you don't pretend that those EK levels don't otherwise exist).
Taking EK on a caster makes your caster worse.
Eldritch Knight offensive potential is not epic significant.
Discuss.




Considerations:

EK ranks give only half as much spellpower as Archmage ranks. Spellpower potential => Reduced.
Equipping a spellpower weapon instead of a dps weapon makes your overall dps much worse.
Eldritch strike does just a bit over 100 damage every 15 seconds (about 7 dps), including spellsword element. Not scalable by critting.
Eldritch strike costs 10sp.
Spellsword is not amplified by spellpower, damage boosts, master's blitz, spell crit, or weapon crit. It does not crit. Again, does not scale effectively.
Spellsword does not work with ranged weapons. No you can't multi-spellsword-shot something.
Average melee hit under master's blitz: 200 base physical damage + 10 spellsword damage. Total spellsword damage contribution is 5% and required investing the 18 arcane levels.
If you make 2.5 attacks per second, and spellsword costs 1sp/6s => 150 damage per spell point. Efficiency will probably be worse unless you're continuosly beating on the same target for ages (likely).
Eldritch strike (compared to a cleave), assuming 100 ES damage / 10 sp = 10 damage (per target) per spell point. I'm sure you can think of better ways of spending spellpoints.
Eldritch Tempest is not crowd control. 1s of KD every 40 seconds is not useful CC.
Eldritch Tempest (compared to a cleave)does about 150 additional damage for 30sp. Efficency: 150/30= only 5 damage (per target) per spell point. Ewwwww?
Eldritch Tempest does about (150 damage / 30s) = 5 damage per second if spammed. How long does it take to kill an EE/EH/EN monster with 5 dps?
Severely restricted damage amplification potential => No real synergy with any Epic Destinies. No synergies make for poor builds. (contrast: abilities that increase average base damage via crits synergizes with everything)
EK offensive potential does not hold its own, and is not in any way competitive with the synergized results of other offensive build strategies.
What could levels of kensei have offered instead?

Tested on a 18 wizard(EK/PM)/2 rogue (acrobat) with 140spellpower. Character has just average gear and numbers can be a bit improved, but consider points #1 and #2.

Vellrad
11-29-2013, 11:30 AM
EK's purpose is not to be for primary casters.
Its designed to be place where splashers spends few AP.

Lonnbeimnech
11-29-2013, 11:40 AM
5 wiz levels for permanent tensors, +6% double strike and +10 PRR might be interesting on a melee build that doesn't get full bab.

voodoogroves
11-29-2013, 11:49 AM
EK gets me another INT option on my pure wizard. SP is less important than DCs for him.

DaSawks
11-29-2013, 12:08 PM
I am currently working on a pure Warforged Wizard designed from the groud up to be an Eldritch Knight. I agree with the OP that there are some draw backs of having AP spent in the EK tree. Archmage and Pale Master are far and away superior for casters. If someone were to look to splash some Wizard for the EK enhancement line and some melee bonus there again I would say there are other superior options.

I took my Melee Wizard into normal eDA. With a Torque (sp) and 1 ConOp item I never fell to 50% spell points. The pure DPS is less than my Pure Fighter but very respectable. Without using a single SP to cast anything other than buffs or Reconstruct I was able to complete without any worries.

I know that normal eDA is not EE anything. This build is a work in progress. I think after some time and tinkering I will be able to sustain above average DPS. I just have to look at the toon as melee and forget about DC's and magic DPS. Until I max out Shiradi. Then I will try to add in the cheap Archmage spells.

AtomicMew
11-29-2013, 04:07 PM
Some thigns you may have missed:

1) tensor's transformation toggle and extended quickened displacement are approx 1-2% DPS boosts. Extended haste is as well, or at least saves an epic feat.
2) DDoor
3) Ice storm/acid fog for CC

Of course it won't be top DPS by any measure, but neither was juggernaut, an outdated build. A proper EK build is basically better.

DrNuegebauer
11-29-2013, 05:00 PM
Of course it won't be top DPS by any measure, but neither was juggernaut, an outdated build. A proper EK build is basically better.

How is Juggernaut outdated?

How is EK better than a Jugg?

I got lost somewhere, fill me in!

Xormax
11-29-2013, 05:31 PM
Here is a terrible video that I made on lammania showing how good EK can be. Currently running this build on Khyber with great success on my toon Tvux. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9FsGEZMmGA. At about the two minute mark is when I start winning?

I don't think it is terrible at all. I have tons of play room with the build too.

AtomicMew
11-29-2013, 06:22 PM
How is Juggernaut outdated?

How is EK better than a Jugg?

I got lost somewhere, fill me in!

Pretty much the only reason for the juggernaut 16 arti levels was quickened reconstruct as self healing. However, you can get quickened reconstruct through bladeforged, so taking 16 arti is obviously no longer optimal. Most common optimized U19 melee builds will be taking 8 fighter/2 monk as a baseline because of centered THF.

era42
11-29-2013, 06:35 PM
Taking EK on a melee makes your melee worse (If you don't pretend that those EK levels don't otherwise exist).
Taking EK on a caster makes your caster worse.
Eldritch Knight offensive potential is not epic significant.


Agreed. EK tree just isn't sexy at all.

I made a displaced acrobat from Bladeforged, pure melee. 10 sorcerer, 6monk, 4 paladin. Awesomely fun toon to play. OK DPS, though the lack of rogue attack-speed hurts a bit. Nice saves from paladin, and awesome survivability (displacement, monk incorp, reconstruct SLA), with some nice spells in the spellbook (haste, displacement, shield, pfe, invis, ddoor).

I debated whether to spend 0, 1 or 8 points in EK, I ended up with 1. Single point for 1% doublestrike, it was pretty much wash with other similar low-gain points with the last spare points. I couldn't justify spending 7 more for 10PRR, the toon is already survivable, I'll rather take DPS from race.

And the core strike, 10sp for that, no thank you. I have it, but I won't use it. I tested it for a short while, ended up using more spell points to it than everything else combined. Without, I can keep haste/displacement permanently up, reconstruct carelessly whenever I take a bit of damage, it's way more carefree when I don't have to watch the manabar closely for a marginal damage gain. If I want to use sps for damage, I'll pop Ice-storm, even unboosted it does better bang for the buck and some CC to top it.

So, pure melee (no damage spells), 10 levels of sorcerer, total of 1 (one) point spent in EK.

AbyssalMage
11-30-2013, 01:19 AM
Here is a terrible video that I made on lammania showing how good EK can be. Currently running this build on Khyber with great success on my toon Tvux. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9FsGEZMmGA. At about the two minute mark is when I start winning?

I don't think it is terrible at all. I have tons of play room with the build too.
Thanks, I will have to direct a guildy over here. He's been thinking about a similar build.

Twinkly
11-30-2013, 10:29 AM
EK's purpose is not to be for primary casters.
Its designed to be place where splashers spends few AP.

Your perspective is backwards. Let's have a look. Why do people splash? A splash is advantageous when A: a class does not hold its own and B: the class is front loaded.

If B is true and A is not true, it will still be fully invested in.
If A is true then arguably B does not matter, because it is already a fail on its own. EK is a fail on its own. Therefore it is fail.

Intentionally designing something that does not hold its own is like making a leaky bucket with a hole on the bottom, to carry water somewhere. Perhaps if you dinged up your bucket by smashing a rock through the bottom, then you might be inclined to patch it back up. But buckets getting damaged is the wrong analogy here. If you were to design a bucket for carrying water, why the hell would you design one with a hole in the bottom (EK), so that it would HAVE to be patched/combined with something else (another class) before it is serviceable?

Paths should hold their own AND provide synergy with other paths. There should be a point to being 100% EK, as well as a point to being EK+whatever. What you basically said is that the point of there being a the [EK] bucket is the handle. That we should just make off with the handle; screw the bucket. :confused:

The fact that it is splashable effectively, has merit. The fact that it is only effective when lightly splashed, is a serious flaw.

Teh_Ghoul
11-30-2013, 10:34 AM
Your perspective is backwards. Let's have a look. Why do people splash? A splash is advantageous when A: a class does not hold its own and B: the class is front loaded.

If B is true and A is not true, it will still be fully invested in.
If A is true then arguably B does not matter, because it is already a fail on its own. EK is a fail on its own. Therefore it is fail.

Intentionally designing something that does not hold its own is like making a leaky bucket with a hole on the bottom, to carry water somewhere. Perhaps if you dinged up your bucket by smashing a rock through the bottom, then you might be inclined to patch it back up. But buckets getting damaged is the wrong analogy here. If you were to design a bucket for carrying water, why the hell would you design one with a hole in the bottom (EK), so that it would HAVE to be patched/combined with something else (another class) before it is serviceable?

Paths should hold their own AND provide synergy with other paths. There should be a point to being 100% EK, as well as a point to being EK+whatever. What you basically said is that the point of there being a the [EK] bucket is the handle. That we should just make off with the handle; screw the bucket. :confused:

The fact that it is splashable effectively, has merit. The fact that it is only effective when lightly splashed, is a serious flaw.
You just described paladins.

Twinkly
11-30-2013, 10:47 AM
Here is a terrible video that I made on lammania showing how good EK can be. Currently running this build on Khyber with great success on my toon Tvux. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9FsGEZMmGA. At about the two minute mark is when I start winning?

I don't think it is terrible at all. I have tons of play room with the build too.

Looks effective. But that build does not look like it is effective because of EK... and the nice 'ton of play room' is not because of EK, it is because of the arcane class! I know because I've been playing this sort of character for a while. That build looks effective because of the stacked Masters Blitz you've got going there from the LD destiny. EK is doing hardly anything.. this is exactly my point #4, go back up and read it. The offensiveness effectiveness of what you have going there is >95% due to dreadnought+falchion (+amplified by crits), and <5% EK (amplified by nothing).

Moreover, your build is a high damage per hit, low hit rate (compared to twf), which marginalizes the effect of EK's core abilities even more.
All you've shown is that master's blitz is very effective. And an arcane with master's blitz works great... and I could have told you that too. I've been playing a palemaster arcane melee for a couple years, and it has worked great. Then Legendary Dreadnought showed up on the scene, and all of a sudden it worked awesome. EK showed up on a scene, and honestly did not make much difference. I still have to rely on everything else, and so do you.

Your build is sweet, but not because of EK.





1) tensor's transformation toggle and extended quickened displacement are approx 1-2% DPS boosts. Extended haste is as well, or at least saves an epic feat.
2) DDoor
3) Ice storm/acid fog for CC

An arcane melee without EK will have those as well. Therefore, these have nothing to do with EK. You may have a point about saving a feat, if you don't care about casting extended spells, but that hardly has to do with EK either. In my experience, the most effective place to cast tensor's transformation is in between monsters while featherfalling in mid air.. you're running and hitting nothing thus losing no dps - problem solved. If your build is so bad that you can start AND end a tensor's spell on the same mob, then you may have bigger issues :/

I agree though, the toggle is quite convenient, and does save [a mostly insignificant amount of] sp, and is probably of most benefit to arcane splashes which are either too low level to cast TT or have a very short TT, but many builds like that will also not have 2) and 3).

Twinkly
11-30-2013, 11:10 AM
I am currently working on a pure Warforged Wizard designed from the groud up to be an Eldritch Knight. I agree with the OP that there are some draw backs of having AP spent in the EK tree. Archmage and Pale Master are far and away superior for casters. If someone were to look to splash some Wizard for the EK enhancement line and some melee bonus there again I would say there are other superior options.

I took my Melee Wizard into normal eDA. With a Torque (sp) and 1 ConOp item I never fell to 50% spell points. The pure DPS is less than my Pure Fighter but very respectable. Without using a single SP to cast anything other than buffs or Reconstruct I was able to complete without any worries.

I know that normal eDA is not EE anything. This build is a work in progress. I think after some time and tinkering I will be able to sustain above average DPS. I just have to look at the toon as melee and forget about DC's and magic DPS. Until I max out Shiradi. Then I will try to add in the cheap Archmage spells.

I agree, arcane melee with torc and concopp is a match made in heaven :). If you have good DC's, may I suggest taking enchantment archmage, and combining the hold person/hold monster SLAs with your meleeing, and twist Sense Weakness from fury, and be in either LD or Magister. That is some good fun ;)! EK not required (and probably won't make a huge difference either).


You just described paladins.
Sadly :(. I'm sure you don't need me to join the chorus of people who have already mentioned that paladins is unsatisfactory as a class. There's no need to present the current state paladins as a desired goal for EK.

Teh_Ghoul
11-30-2013, 12:15 PM
I agree, arcane melee with torc and concopp is a match made in heaven :). If you have good DC's, may I suggest taking enchantment archmage, and combining the hold person/hold monster SLAs with your meleeing, and twist Sense Weakness from fury, and be in either LD or Magister. That is some good fun ;)! EK not required (and probably won't make a huge difference either).


Sadly :(. I'm sure you don't need me to join the chorus of people who have already mentioned that paladins is unsatisfactory as a class. There's no need to present the current state paladins as a desired goal for EK.

Why would they take enchantment sla's on a non max int full spell focused toon, they're not going to land on a melee build in any content that needs cc.

DrNuegebauer
11-30-2013, 01:08 PM
Pretty much the only reason for the juggernaut 16 arti levels was quickened reconstruct as self healing. However, you can get quickened reconstruct through bladeforged, so taking 16 arti is obviously no longer optimal. Most common optimized U19 melee builds will be taking 8 fighter/2 monk as a baseline because of centered THF.

I think I'd disagree with that basic premise (only reason = quickened reconstruct). 16 Arti levels allowed the archery stuff to be put in. You get the +1W from deadly, damage boost, etc.

I would of course agree that the 8+fig 2+mnk builds are superior DPS wise, albeit not quite as survivable? But surely the Jugg >>> arcane melee options, so not so much "outdated"?

Anyway - it's off topic!

Twinkly
12-01-2013, 08:23 AM
Why would they take enchantment sla's on a non max int full spell focused toon, they're not going to land on a melee build in any content that needs cc.

You are correct, yes, don't do this if you dump int and spell focus.

Phaeton_Seraph
12-03-2013, 01:10 AM
From the thread title, I was expecting something very different. Assuming that the statistics given are true, then the OP is correct. And much more lucid than I expected.

Memnir
12-03-2013, 03:02 AM
My biggest complaint with the EK tree is, after playing one for a while and leveling up a bit, that the tree just feels half finished. Like there was more work to be done, a good deal more, but time ran out and it had to be rushed out the door and onto the servers. It feels to me like it was added as filler - a "Look, we're adding stuff!" sort of deal, that was only included for the sake of being able to crow that stuff was added. The tree has a bit going for it, but a lot more not going for it.


I'm hoping that EK will be like Pale Master, a PrE the Devs admitted was put out in a feature incomplete state, and it will get better over time as it gets tweaks. But, a big part of me is resigned to the fact that it'll be minor tweaks to the tree as it exists now, if anything, and the tree will become yet another forgotten bit of roadkill that litters the landscape that is DDO's added features.

Battery
12-03-2013, 03:22 AM
Here is a terrible video that I made on lammania showing how good EK can be. Currently running this build on Khyber with great success on my toon Tvux. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9FsGEZMmGA. At about the two minute mark is when I start winning?

I don't think it is terrible at all. I have tons of play room with the build too.

post a build!

Buffyanne
12-06-2013, 12:50 AM
I must say I disagree. I have a 14 Wiz/4 Barb/2 Fighter that just wrecks things at the moment. I call him the Ravager Wraith and he uses PM, EK and the Ravager trees primarily. Just starting in on epics so I will go into more details as I get into the higher up ones but will use Cleaver and synergy with doublestrike enhancements, force from Estrike and Etempest amped up and that will synergy with Ruin which has no DC saves. Displace and Wraith from make you very hard to hit and you can pump out 6 cleave attacks (estrike, etempest, cleave, gr cleave, mom swing and lay waste). Runs in tensors obviously. Ravager started off as flavor but the line is really nice and has synergy - Hate and cruel strikes do ability dmg that works well with necro ray,enervation and CoD. Aura of fear with waves of exhaustion gives enemies -8 str, you are causing massive con dmg with cruel cut to red/orange names. Between spell sword and ravager you are getting 4d18 extra dmg per strike. So to summarize, good doublestrike, self healing, hard to hit, tons of cleaves, excellent buffs, solid utility spell ability and good synergy with force spells that require no DC checks.

Pala-forged
12-06-2013, 01:49 AM
EK has some nice abilities (if you're planning on a melee sorc/wizard anyway), some gimmicks and a lot of concepts that would be great... in another game.

It has potential with some tweaks. As it stands, my melee sorc just dips in for some low hanging fruit thae GTFO to other trees.

LOOON375
12-06-2013, 02:00 AM
My pure WF Sorc is performing amazingly well in EE content. much better than I had hoped. It is a definite melee option in this game.

Yes, blitz makes it amazing. But that doesn't mean that it's not viable.

I stayed pure to try out the capstone, and I have absolutely no issue with it. As a matter of fact, I love it.

Im using sireth, so I am constantly having AOE procs going off. Whether they are from the weapon, or form the cleave attacks. Add energy burst + primal scream, you end up doing tons of damage across multiple possible damage areas. The elemental toggles are nice, because you just switch to suit the type of mob you are fighting.

Im still tweaking mine, and making changes as I go to improve upon it. It preforms damn well in fury of the wild, and for that matter, in the fatesinger destiny.

I keep seeing tons of posters stating that "the tree LOOKS like ****" I don't think it's nearly as bad as some are trying to make it out to be.

Different strokes.

poptolev
12-06-2013, 10:14 AM
DISCLAIMER - My max char. ATM is lv18 so I have no exp. in the end-game. Purely a suggestion.

Shouldn't the EK get a nice synergy with the Sacred Defender tree and the Dwarf tree, with all of them HP/CON/Shield goodies ?

Heck if you go with Stalwart instead of Sacred you can throw in some Barbarian in the mix for some extra dps.

DDOisFree
12-06-2013, 10:24 AM
I took the mage armour and shield SLAs, scroll and wand buffs plus the weapon thing just for +10 force spell power and -5% failure on my bladeforged sorc. Turns out that the shield SLA isn't that great, and I was hoping to use mage armour on allies but its self cast only.

Twinkly
12-06-2013, 10:51 AM
I took the mage armour and shield SLAs, scroll and wand buffs plus the weapon thing just for +10 force spell power and -5% failure on my bladeforged sorc. Turns out that the shield SLA isn't that great, and I was hoping to use mage armour on allies but its self cast only.



Since the shield reduces all damage and healing to you and only under 50% health, it looks to be effectively a maximum of +12.5% max hp for your character, which is.. alright? Since it doesn't let you heal for normal amounts, it doesn't confer any advantage to survival other than possibly saving you from a single spike of damage. Except when you take into account that you can have a maximum of 20/90=22% up time of the shield, which requires that you deliberately go and take massive damage every time the shield comes off cooldown, you end up with an average of 12.5% * 22% = 2.7% max hp.

The enhancement nets you a measly +2.7% maximum hp on average. Wow. :(

Twinkly
12-06-2013, 11:13 AM
I must say I disagree. I have a 14 Wiz/4 Barb/2 Fighter that just wrecks things at the moment. I call him the Ravager Wraith and he uses PM, EK and the Ravager trees primarily. Just starting in on epics so I will go into more details as I get into the higher up ones but will use Cleaver and synergy with doublestrike enhancements, force from Estrike and Etempest amped up and that will synergy with Ruin which has no DC saves. Displace and Wraith from make you very hard to hit and you can pump out 6 cleave attacks (estrike, etempest, cleave, gr cleave, mom swing and lay waste). Runs in tensors obviously. Ravager started off as flavor but the line is really nice and has synergy - Hate and cruel strikes do ability dmg that works well with necro ray,enervation and CoD. Aura of fear with waves of exhaustion gives enemies -8 str, you are causing massive con dmg with cruel cut to red/orange names. Between spell sword and ravager you are getting 4d18 extra dmg per strike.

1+1=2 is not synergy, that's just throwing random stuff together.
1+1=3 is synergy. You put two things together, and they interact to do something at least slightly more than just the two things alone together.



So to summarize, good doublestrike, self healing, hard to hit, tons of cleaves, excellent buffs, solid utility spell ability and good synergy with force spells that require no DC checks.

What you do have right is that ravager has some synergy with necro stuff, and that palemaster wraith form works well with melee. Unfortunately, both those have nothing to do with EK specifically.
EK does have some double strike. But if you take 2 rogue levels instead of 2 fighter levels, you can get 3x as much doublestrike. It just doesn't compare.
Self healing has absolutely nothing to do with EK specifically.
Hard to hit has nothing to do with EK. This is palemaster stuff.
Excellent buffs and solid utility spells has nothing to do with EK. This is because you are wizard (You get the same benefit from an EK-less wizard).
Force spells aren't the only thing that requires no DC checks, but EK offers a marginal benefit for force spells over Archmage at best, due to 0.5sp/ap 1sp/ap ratio. Assuming you invest 42 points in EK to get most of the T5 goodies, that is a 21 spellpower loss over 40 points in AM, to gain a bonus of +30 force spellpower. So you net +9 force spellpower.

So you get an extremely inefficient cleave with a really long cooldown, one very inefficient cleave with with a longish cooldown, +9 force spellpower, -21 universal spellpower, a few percent doublestrike, 10 prr, and 2.7% hitpoints, and ability to wear armor (your scrolls will still fail btw), all for a 42 AP investment. Honestly, I think the -21 universal spellpower will lose you more dps than you gain from +9 force spellpower in your eldritch strikes. Same with polar ray, ice storm, black dragon bolt, etc.

Buffyanne
12-06-2013, 02:57 PM
1+1=2 is not synergy, that's just throwing random stuff together.
1+1=3 is synergy. You put two things together, and they interact to do something at least slightly more than just the two things alone together.




What you do have right is that ravager has some synergy with necro stuff, and that palemaster wraith form works well with melee. Unfortunately, both those have nothing to do with EK specifically.
EK does have some double strike. But if you take 2 rogue levels instead of 2 fighter levels, you can get 3x as much doublestrike. It just doesn't compare.
Self healing has absolutely nothing to do with EK specifically.
Hard to hit has nothing to do with EK. This is palemaster stuff.
Excellent buffs and solid utility spells has nothing to do with EK. This is because you are wizard (You get the same benefit from an EK-less wizard).
Force spells aren't the only thing that requires no DC checks, but EK offers a marginal benefit for force spells over Archmage at best, due to 0.5sp/ap 1sp/ap ratio. Assuming you invest 42 points in EK to get most of the T5 goodies, that is a 21 spellpower loss over 40 points in AM, to gain a bonus of +30 force spellpower. So you net +9 force spellpower.

So you get an extremely inefficient cleave with a really long cooldown, one very inefficient cleave with with a longish cooldown, +9 force spellpower, -21 universal spellpower, a few percent doublestrike, 10 prr, and 2.7% hitpoints, and ability to wear armor (your scrolls will still fail btw), all for a 42 AP investment. Honestly, I think the -21 universal spellpower will lose you more dps than you gain from +9 force spellpower in your eldritch strikes. Same with polar ray, ice storm, black dragon bolt, etc.

For this build you need the 2 fighter levels, (and being human) for the feats. This build has extend, mental toughness and maximize from Wiz, insightful reflexes, PL Wiz, then the full THF feats to qualify for OC and toughness to qualify for epic toughness. Ruin will be the other epic feat. What you are missing is that EK takes a wizard and turns him into a melee beast. I don't get where you think they are not good cleaves, they are in fact VERY good cleaves and the force dmg is significant. Have you even tried them out yet on a melee spec'd wizard?

Synergy - doublestrike from EK with Cleaver
Synergy - force based non DC casting with twin EK cleave attacks and ruin
Synergy - Ravager stat dmg with PM. This isn't just PM because a casting PM can't take advantage of wading into battle and using them, same goes for displace and wraith form. Almost all casting PMs are in lich form anyway.

Twinkly
12-07-2013, 09:35 AM
For this build you need the 2 fighter levels, (and being human) for the feats. This build has extend, mental toughness and maximize from Wiz, insightful reflexes, PL Wiz, then the full THF feats to qualify for OC and toughness to qualify for epic toughness. Ruin will be the other epic feat. What you are missing is that EK takes a wizard and turns him into a melee beast. I don't get where you think they are not good cleaves, they are in fact VERY good cleaves and the force dmg is significant. Have you even tried them out yet on a melee spec'd wizard?

Synergy - doublestrike from EK with Cleaver
Synergy - force based non DC casting with twin EK cleave attacks and ruin
Synergy - Ravager stat dmg with PM. This isn't just PM because a casting PM can't take advantage of wading into battle and using them, same goes for displace and wraith form. Almost all casting PMs are in lich form anyway.

That's kind of like saying a cha fvs can't use blade barrier.
The solution is to that is play a wis fvs.
Here, the solution is a PM with melee investments, not a pure caster pm trying to wade into melee, because that would be moronic. And really a melee pm is almost the same as what you are describing. You haven't tried a geared melee 18PM/x in LD destiny have you?

I'm not missing that a solid investment in EK turns him into a melee beast, because he would already have to be a melee beast before you invested those points into EK, because EK just does not make that much of a difference to any decent epic character, and epic is where the game is now.

And saying that EK rocks on a naked level 28, against level 15 elite, or mows through level 20 epic casual like winning the special olympics.

poptolev
12-07-2013, 04:09 PM
TBH the SLA's feel kind of counter-intuitive.

+4 armor bonus and +10% AC, but the +4 armor bonus is pretty much useless because you'd want to get as much AC as possible (so you can capitalize on the 10%) which means you'll get a medium/heavy armor. Same thing for the shield. With the Shield Striking and whatnot you'd like to equip a shield so that +4 shield bonus is useless as well. They could've at least make them a stackable (untyped ?) bonus. We have 4 abilities + 2 cores that reduce the AF so you'd think you are actually supposed to use Heavy armor and a shield. So what purpose do those 2 +4s serve ? A Henshin/EK hybrid ?

And all that Force SP yet only 2 abilities that use it*. Are we supposed to make an Eldritch Archmage Knight using the force SLA's from there ? Add BB as a Tier5 SLA (with all that AC and whatnot you might as well start kiting xD) or at least add it to the spellbook and it will make more of a sense. Or at least add a Force equivalent of the Spellsword cores as a T5 or something.

*And let's face it ... no one sane is going to use Eldritch Tempest - 6 AP for a 30 cooldown ability ... REALLY ?!

Elibolas
12-07-2013, 04:33 PM
I was thinking of trying a Rog 2 (Th/Ac) Wiz 18 (Archmage-Evocation) build, and thought that EK tied the two together nicely. EK pumps the damage of the staff damage when I want to polish something off in melee, and the Force damage pumps the SLAs of the Archmage line. I don't think we're talking about an EE build, but sounds like it could be fun.

-- Elibolas

Pala-forged
12-07-2013, 11:03 PM
DISCLAIMER - My max char. ATM is lv18 so I have no exp. in the end-game. Purely a suggestion.

Shouldn't the EK get a nice synergy with the Sacred Defender tree and the Dwarf tree, with all of them HP/CON/Shield goodies ?

Heck if you go with Stalwart instead of Sacred you can throw in some Barbarian in the mix for some extra dps.

No... no, not really.

1) Sacred Defender is pretty bad in general. Shields are a gimmick. Health is so easy to get as is. I have 500 by level 16, 400 by 11 and 1k by 28 on my wizards.

2) Barbs just aren't worth it currently. Hardly gives more dps when your hjealz are dead.

3) You really need more dps than sacred defender - or EK - can get on their own. Destinies are the greatest source of dps on DDO, sacrificing masters blitz for a tiny amount of survivability seems pointless.

To be honest, I do see your point, and I'd try it if DDO was a different game.. but it's not, sadly enough.

poptolev
12-08-2013, 09:38 AM
I had a 12 wiz/6 barb laying around already. Wraith form (for self heal and well fighting on melee range, it boosts the damage as well) + Frenzy and the STR boost from the Rage, some decent AC and PRR ... I don't have to worry about the "no casting" part of Rage as well - just buff myself, cast a Death aura and rageeeeeeee xD.

I have no idea what is to have a good char. TBH but comparing to the people I find in the PUGs I have to say it's pretty good.

The problem with the people playing DDO is that they don't realize - not every item, class and etc. has to be end game viable. A lot of people don't reach the end-game. Someone might want to just play mid-level with a spell casting slashbuckler and cleric might not be up to their taste. Some stuff is just there to add variety to the game.

Buffyanne
12-08-2013, 11:58 AM
You haven't tried a geared melee 18PM/x in LD destiny have you? .

Why would I? My build is far superior in melee abilities.

dunklezhan
12-08-2013, 03:24 PM
I just LRs my pure fighter S&B to a kensai EK (12 wiz 8 fighter).

Now, I didn't expect amazing DPS to result by diluting a L20 fighter with 12 levels of wizard! But I do find it is only marginally better than the S&B wielder, and it's not for lack of attack bonus, y'know?I've gained a few ranks in LD since then, which has helped hugely - but its the ED, not the EK making the difference. The crits are of course way bigger on a GA than a BS and this is where the DPS increase is coming from, but the average damage per swing is about the same with similar special effects on the weapon, and I was able to put a lot more into str on the LR.

Now there's not nearly enough information in the above claim to know whether i'm making a fair comparison - but I still hit what feels like the same amount. That speaks volumes for how much better they've made S&B of course, which I'm actually very pleased about and would not want to see reversed again, but note this: my AC has not changed very much since swapping from stalwart, and I no longer carry a tower shield. It's made a 5% difference maybe to how much avoidance the tooltip says I have, except now I have some self healing and higher DPS.

So no, I do not think EK needs massive amounts of tweaking. I think I'm getting pretty good mileage out of it. However, it would have been a nightmare to level that build I think, it's only really worked because I came straight in at L20.

I feel like the tree needs a lot more front loading. The standard T1 magic cleave needs to have either it's damage raised or it's SP cost lowered massively - 3SP is just about worth it's current damage output. Even on a L20 wizard with so many more SP, the current cost would be way. Too. Expensive, it should be on a par with an SLA in terms of cost at this damage level. Double it, at least. Triple it, if possible. Honestly, 30 elemental damage in a small burst and less than that in force at L20 is nothing. It could also probably benefit more from universal spell power rather than forcing you to have the different elemental spellpower types all available to swap in depending on which spellsword you are using.

The T5 force AOE is also too expensive on the SP. It has a long cooldown and you can't put metas on it but like the Eldritch Strike it *feels* like a SLA in terms of it's effect. Its' also based on character, not wizard level, so I can only assume the 100 or so force damage it does is pretty standard unless you've got great +impact gear (which I'm working on) and frankly that's more in line with what I'm expecting from that Tier 1 ability. It certainly shouldn't cost 30SP with a 30 sec cooldown after 3 points of investment, that's where it should be starting. Or keep the long cooldown but boost the damage output. Either way, drop the SP hugely. That sort of SP investment is maximised fireball territory and the damage output there is way higher, even accounting for the damage from the weapon swing itself.

I also don't understand why the actual EK SLAs (mage armour, shield) can be metad (extend quicken for giggles) and the T1 core and T5 EK melee strikes can't. At the current SP price of the EK T1 & T5 Eldritch Strike, not being able to have a free maximise just feels like I'm being ripped off. Incidentally, the PM necrotic SLAs - no metas is weaksauce there too especially since they can't self target for heals.

Additionally, FAR too many AP are consumed for my liking in EK reducing modifiers for being what this tree is supposed to be - a melee wizard. I shouldn't need to actively invest so much directly in ASF except for the extreme ends of things (e.g. heavy armour and shields). Those 4-6 extra APs that are required make a big difference. The enhancements themselves should certainly be included - they'd be ones that a pure wiz would invest in to get the armour/shield proficiencies themselves. But ASF should come with the tier core abilities, at each level of spellsword so that multiclassers aren't quite so penalised. Shallow multiclassers would still be limited by the number of core abilities they could reach based on wiz level, but could still invest in those proficiency+ASF AP if armour was particularly important to them.


Just my thoughts from a mere few days playing an EK. That's from the point of view of a wiz-heavy build anyway.

poptolev
12-08-2013, 05:57 PM
Is it me or they forgot Heavy Armor Proficiency on the 3rd rank of Still Spell ... It makes no sense to be able to cast spells with 0% AF with Heavy Armor while NOT having the proficiency for it ... or they expect us to multiclass (or waste 3 feats) to get it ?

AtomicMew
12-09-2013, 04:09 AM
I just LRs my pure fighter S&B to a kensai EK (12 wiz 8 fighter).

Now, I didn't expect amazing DPS to result by diluting a L20 fighter with 12 levels of wizard! But I do find it is only marginally better than the S&B wielder, and it's not for lack of attack bonus, y'know?I've gained a few ranks in LD since then, which has helped hugely - but its the ED, not the EK making the difference. The crits are of course way bigger on a GA than a BS and this is where the DPS increase is coming from, but the average damage per swing is about the same with similar special effects on the weapon, and I was able to put a lot more into str on the LR.

Now there's not nearly enough information in the above claim to know whether i'm making a fair comparison - but I still hit what feels like the same amount. That speaks volumes for how much better they've made S&B of course, which I'm actually very pleased about and would not want to see reversed again, but note this: my AC has not changed very much since swapping from stalwart, and I no longer carry a tower shield. It's made a 5% difference maybe to how much avoidance the tooltip says I have, except now I have some self healing and higher DPS.

So no, I do not think EK needs massive amounts of tweaking. I think I'm getting pretty good mileage out of it. However, it would have been a nightmare to level that build I think, it's only really worked because I came straight in at L20.

I feel like the tree needs a lot more front loading. The standard T1 magic cleave needs to have either it's damage raised or it's SP cost lowered massively - 3SP is just about worth it's current damage output. Even on a L20 wizard with so many more SP, the current cost would be way. Too. Expensive, it should be on a par with an SLA in terms of cost at this damage level. Double it, at least. Triple it, if possible. Honestly, 30 elemental damage in a small burst and less than that in force at L20 is nothing. It could also probably benefit more from universal spell power rather than forcing you to have the different elemental spellpower types all available to swap in depending on which spellsword you are using.

The T5 force AOE is also too expensive on the SP. It has a long cooldown and you can't put metas on it but like the Eldritch Strike it *feels* like a SLA in terms of it's effect. Its' also based on character, not wizard level, so I can only assume the 100 or so force damage it does is pretty standard unless you've got great +impact gear (which I'm working on) and frankly that's more in line with what I'm expecting from that Tier 1 ability. It certainly shouldn't cost 30SP with a 30 sec cooldown after 3 points of investment, that's where it should be starting. Or keep the long cooldown but boost the damage output. Either way, drop the SP hugely. That sort of SP investment is maximised fireball territory and the damage output there is way higher, even accounting for the damage from the weapon swing itself.

I also don't understand why the actual EK SLAs (mage armour, shield) can be metad (extend quicken for giggles) and the T1 core and T5 EK melee strikes can't. At the current SP price of the EK T1 & T5 Eldritch Strike, not being able to have a free maximise just feels like I'm being ripped off. Incidentally, the PM necrotic SLAs - no metas is weaksauce there too especially since they can't self target for heals.

Additionally, FAR too many AP are consumed for my liking in EK reducing modifiers for being what this tree is supposed to be - a melee wizard. I shouldn't need to actively invest so much directly in ASF except for the extreme ends of things (e.g. heavy armour and shields). Those 4-6 extra APs that are required make a big difference. The enhancements themselves should certainly be included - they'd be ones that a pure wiz would invest in to get the armour/shield proficiencies themselves. But ASF should come with the tier core abilities, at each level of spellsword so that multiclassers aren't quite so penalised. Shallow multiclassers would still be limited by the number of core abilities they could reach based on wiz level, but could still invest in those proficiency+ASF AP if armour was particularly important to them.


Just my thoughts from a mere few days playing an EK. That's from the point of view of a wiz-heavy build anyway.

Well said.

Scrag
12-09-2013, 08:56 AM
Is it me or they forgot Heavy Armor Proficiency on the 3rd rank of Still Spell ... It makes no sense to be able to cast spells with 0% AF with Heavy Armor while NOT having the proficiency for it ... or they expect us to multiclass (or waste 3 feats) to get it ?

I have mentioned this a few times, but really, you need to diversify. Bard/cleric/sorc takes advantage of all cha (I realise this is a wizard thread...). Cleric gets you unlimited divine might, bard gets you massive + cha, and starting with a fair bit of str gets you overwhelming crit pretty easily. You are a bit feat starved, but if you focus on warchanter instead of spellsinger, and dipping into spellsinger only for the songs, you get a pretty beefy fighter that gets lots of bonuses in combat from skaldic rage, the spell rage, inspire heroics, inspire (the noob damage one), and +damage from core warchanter. I split 14/5/1 bard/sorc/cleric, and mash through things pretty well in an entirely solo capable manner. This also gets me heavy armor proficiency and lots of devotion and generic spell power (heavy blue dragon armor, elite shamanic totem w/ spellcraft diamond, elite stolen necklace). You can chose to go empower heal, twf or thf route +pa and cleave and maximize or empower, or some mix of feats with s&b as an option. S&b gives you the slight 12 point heal, which is better than nothing. Personally, I am considering using balazarde and epic elyd edge for weapons w/ twf, and swapping balazarde to min2 rapier if necessary. Moreover, you can twist in siren song and go pure legendary dreadnaught for tactical bonuses, lay waste, momentum, crit bonuses, and extra con (which really helps with the slim bardic hps).

Do I think I can solo some of those insane prison quests on elite? Uh, no. But then, even on a really well built char, some of those can be hard on an equally well prepared _team_. For instance, the second to final quest where mobs spawn endlessly in the sewer. -_-

You can definitely find synergy.

Twinkly
12-09-2013, 01:18 PM
Why would I? My build is far superior in melee abilities.

Well, that right there says it all. Go and actually try. =p
You'll probably do very marginally less melee dps in lich form, and extremely marginally less dps with maxed LD, self heal better, and cast better.
Far superior? Hah....






I just LRs my pure fighter S&B to a kensai EK (12 wiz 8 fighter).

Now, I didn't expect amazing DPS to result by diluting a L20 fighter with 12 levels of wizard! But I do find it is only marginally better than the S&B wielder, and it's not for lack of attack bonus, y'know?I've gained a few ranks in LD since then, which has helped hugely - but its the ED, not the EK making the difference. The crits are of course way bigger on a GA than a BS and this is where the DPS increase is coming from, but the average damage per swing is about the same with similar special effects on the weapon, and I was able to put a lot more into str on the LR.


And this is exactly it. The ED's effectiveness dwarfs that of EK, and doubly so as none of the EDs improve the effectiveness of EK specific stuff.


So no, I do not think EK needs massive amounts of tweaking. I think I'm getting pretty good mileage out of it. However, it would have been a nightmare to level that build I think, it's only really worked because I came straight in at L20.

I feel like the tree needs a lot more front loading. The standard T1 magic cleave needs to have either it's damage raised or it's SP cost lowered massively - 3SP is just about worth it's current damage output. Even on a L20 wizard with so many more SP, the current cost would be way. Too. Expensive, it should be on a par with an SLA in terms of cost at this damage level. Double it, at least. Triple it, if possible. Honestly, 30 elemental damage in a small burst and less than that in force at L20 is nothing. It could also probably benefit more from universal spell power rather than forcing you to have the different elemental spellpower types all available to swap in depending on which spellsword you are using.

The T5 force AOE is also too expensive on the SP. It has a long cooldown and you can't put metas on it but like the Eldritch Strike it *feels* like a SLA in terms of it's effect. Its' also based on character, not wizard level, so I can only assume the 100 or so force damage it does is pretty standard unless you've got great +impact gear (which I'm working on) and frankly that's more in line with what I'm expecting from that Tier 1 ability. It certainly shouldn't cost 30SP with a 30 sec cooldown after 3 points of investment, that's where it should be starting. Or keep the long cooldown but boost the damage output. Either way, drop the SP hugely. That sort of SP investment is maximised fireball territory and the damage output there is way higher, even accounting for the damage from the weapon swing itself.

I also don't understand why the actual EK SLAs (mage armour, shield) can be metad (extend quicken for giggles) and the T1 core and T5 EK melee strikes can't. At the current SP price of the EK T1 & T5 Eldritch Strike, not being able to have a free maximise just feels like I'm being ripped off. Incidentally, the PM necrotic SLAs - no metas is weaksauce there too especially since they can't self target for heals.

Additionally, FAR too many AP are consumed for my liking in EK reducing modifiers for being what this tree is supposed to be - a melee wizard. I shouldn't need to actively invest so much directly in ASF except for the extreme ends of things (e.g. heavy armour and shields). Those 4-6 extra APs that are required make a big difference. The enhancements themselves should certainly be included - they'd be ones that a pure wiz would invest in to get the armour/shield proficiencies themselves. But ASF should come with the tier core abilities, at each level of spellsword so that multiclassers aren't quite so penalised. Shallow multiclassers would still be limited by the number of core abilities they could reach based on wiz level, but could still invest in those proficiency+ASF AP if armour was particularly important to them.


Just my thoughts from a mere few days playing an EK. That's from the point of view of a wiz-heavy build anyway.

EK is alright in the leveling up range.. provided you just ignore that eldritch cleave ever exists, as it is as good of an sp waste as ever. At least in mid levels, EK is less marginalized than at epic levels. Still nothing spectacular though.

Yeah. I agree these are exactly some of the major problems with EK. But I don't think EK needs even more front loading, as it is already pretty darn front loaded, sort of. Let's say you start with 18 wiz levels, unspecced. For just 6 points into EK, you have a the signature EK cleave (that still needs tweaking), AND you also have full 4-16 on hit elemental! In other words most of the offensive contribution of the entire EK. If that's not extremely front loaded already, I don't know what is. :( The real problem is that EK doesn't scale past the front loadedness very well at all. Even pally might do better at this here. Patheticness :(

As far as AC goes, an extra 10% of useless is still pretty darn useless. Perhaps it was intended to adjust the current metagame? Trying harder would be needed...

That's not to say that I think EK should be merely redistributed, as that would make a 'meh' class just plain suck, but rather the investment/effectiveness curve should be reconsidered, taking into account both low geared characters and well geared characters as well as characters with EDs, using a minimal investment in EK as a baseline. Also, upper tiers desperately needs some non-fluff cool factor!



... but really, you need to diversify....
Because EK as a PrE really rather sucks. We have a different view of the same coin. I'm glad you agree. :P

Scrag
12-09-2013, 02:11 PM
Because EK as a PrE really rather sucks. We have a different view of the same coin. I'm glad you agree. :P

No, we don't. You clearly state that the prestige class sucks, right there, in your subject. I am saying it does NOT suck, and can be pushed to do all sorts of fun things, like so many other options in this game.

Why is it that the eldritch knight "sucks" because diversifying gets you more, whereas monk/fighter/whatever minmax class combos do NOT get the same suck statement? Fact is, everything in this game can be made better or worse through diversifying. My example there is simply because some people are looking at the prestige class with narrow blinders. A narrow focus and inability to look at broader posibilities inherent in something just because it isn't what some people might want or understand how functions does not mean that something sucks. It certainly does not make your toon worse, unless you so choose to hobble yourself with poor feat or enhancement choices.

Lifespawn
12-09-2013, 02:45 PM
post a build!



https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/432347-EK-Build-that-works-and-is-raid-worthy

Ancient
12-16-2013, 11:23 AM
Because EK as a PrE really rather sucks. We have a different view of the same coin. I'm glad you agree. :P
EK is fantastic.... just not for what it was intended!

Six points for
Core 1
Core 2
Battle Mage 3
Toughness 1 (5 hp for 1 AP is not a horrible filler point)

That gives you
3 Universal spell power
3 Spell Craft
10 Force

And removes the need to spend a point under the warforged tree for inscribed armor.

If desired, the point in toughness can be moved over to the mage armor SLA so that 5 more AP provides 10 PRR. I have mixed feelings on this.

As a bonus, you get the weapon toggle that makes your quarterstaff glow!