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Kingault
11-27-2013, 09:10 PM
Edit: You can pretty much ignore all of my OP. I should have just said whether Bladeforged would work best with unarmed, TWF, or with a stick. Have +2 tomes in all stats, and a +5 from Mabar. Leaning on stick due to unarmed needing wis/dex, and twf needing dex more than the stick. The builds I linked to weren't the most suitable for what I have. Meh.

Basically, I'm not sure whether I should go Unarmed(such as the Munkenmo Woodfist build), TWF (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/424162-The-Ginsu-a-new-TWF-build-concept), or Stick (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/430398-The-Crimson-Bolt-A-selfhealing-metal-stick-build).

Each build has its own attractions to me, but also their own drawbacks, but I'm not sure how far they go. I'm basically looking for advice regarding... hm... which build would be best for which playstye.... solo ability(EH, don't plan on solo EEing... for now.).... and maybe a comparison of how big a difference in DPS they would have?
(Planning on going Bladeforged regardless of build due to the SLA)(Have only +2 tomes in all, and a +5 from Mabar, not used yet)
So far I've got(not counting EDs because chances are I'd go LD due to being level 4 in that and only level 3 in one other ED, Shiradi. Maybe GMoF for unarmed.):

Stick has:
Imp. Evasion, opportunist, and... crippling strike?, more sneak attack dice, CHA mod to damage + saves, uh.... cyrstal DR bypass(not like many enemies have that) due to Sireth?
14(I think? Would be 13 if the T5 LD thing worked?)-18 x3 crit, 19-20 x6(Mountain, Overwhelming, the LD crit thing) for crits
Due to rogue, can put points for traps?(If I got epic spare hand I guess)
Tomes not as important
3d6 sneak attack from epic feat if it's worth it

Downsides(to me):
Not as much benefit from doublestrike due to only getting 1 attack per "swing", whereas TWF/unarmed get 2
No ranged option
Uh.... not sure what else. Cleaves not as useful?

Ginsu:
Uh...... more hits so more chances at crits?
Has a ranged option

Going to require more tomes due to BF having lower DEX/WIS

Munkenmo Woodfist/Unarmed:
Better stun(6sec cd)
Instakill
Most # of attacks
Antipode + Shintao/twist + Good Augment = all DRs gotten. Then again, Grave Wraps is better for mobs.
Needs more tomes for BF due to -Dex/wis
Only 19-20 crit range, but instakilling probably makes up for that

I'm probably missing a lot of downs/ups for these builds, so... eh.
Leaning toward the stick build since I have Sireth from the box(and Pinion, but the build doesn't have ranged), and due to not being as tome intensive.
Then again, it's not like I ranged at all my first two lives(TWF).
Guess if I ever get better tomes, I'll try the other two out and see which one I like best.

I considered a fighter/mnk/pal build for THF, but I'd only take that if I had ESoS, and... I'm not going to be getting that any time soon.
Thanks in advance.

elg582
11-27-2013, 10:09 PM
The biggest problem with ginsu is that it is fighter/ranger/monk, and BF have to take level 1 as paladin :)

Munkenmo requires 3 +5 tomes, and Antipode is a terrible weapon.

Crimson Bolt is a little squishy; no incorporeal, low base hp, moderate saves even with paladin splash, although imp evasion helps with that. I would change it to 10 rogue/6 monk/4 paladin, for an extra feat and 25% incorporeal.


I went the THF route and just use Breach until I get my SoS :)

Kingault
11-27-2013, 11:05 PM
The biggest problem with ginsu is that it is fighter/ranger/monk, and BF have to take level 1 as paladin :)

Munkenmo requires 3 +5 tomes, and Antipode is a terrible weapon.

Crimson Bolt is a little squishy; no incorporeal, low base hp, moderate saves even with paladin splash, although imp evasion helps with that. I would change it to 10 rogue/6 monk/4 paladin, for an extra feat and 25% incorporeal.


I went the THF route and just use Breach until I get my SoS :)

Yeah, I forgot about Grave Wrappings. Those neg levels must help a good bit.

For Ginsu, I could get... 11 levels of fighter and 3 of ranger, then LR + 1 the Paladin level to fighter.
Then there's the fact that the Ginsu wasn't made with BF stats in mind, so... yeah. Tomes. Wouldn't be a problem if I was VIP for monthly points, but unfortunately I don't have that.
I could just not go bladeforged, but tbh, I'm not that fond of scroll healing.

Hm, guess my plan for now is to get this Monkcher I currently have to 20, then do epics for gear(including trying to get eSoS) and EDs(for Twists)... Now I wonder, maybe I could roll up a BF monkcher...

I did get the Cloudburst and Insanity greatswords, so those would help me. Guess I should've saved my second raider box until I figured out what build I wanted, eh? At least Sireth has x3 with that TA enhancement.

Just curious, could the eSoS be better at single target DPS than dual Balizardes?
You never cease to help me, eh, elg?
If tomes weren't an issue, which build(not counting THF, just stick, using the levels you suggested)) would you think is best for: soloing, damage, trash? Guessing TWF/Stick would be better in raw damage due to crit range, but then again, maybe the # of attacks(+doublestrike, and cleaves/Momentum/Lay Waste) would make TWF higher in that category. Woodfist seems better for trash due to stunning fist and quivering palm, especially on EE, but it seems to me the focus on the DCs makes actual damage lower than, say TWF. Course I've no clue for sure, but this is what it looks like to me.
To me out, of the three, stick has the highest numbers(maybe attack speed is close to twf as well due to the qstaff att speed enhancement?) and maybe highest fort bypass(due to the rogue feat that gives -10%), twf has the highest amount of crits due to offhand + attack speed, and Woodfist has the highest # of attacks(probably not crits due to 19-20 range instead of 13/14-20 like the others) and the instakills(and Grave Wrappings for neg levels) for trash.

In retrospect, I shouldn't have specifically said the Woodfist build for unarmed.
I'm thinking of going 16mnk/3rng/1fight or maybe 4ng(will get precise shot either way), but that wouldn't change the importance of tomes. If I had +3 or 4 in the stats needed, then I'd try it. Planning on stick for now, because really, I doubt I'll be getting eSoS any time soon.

elg582
11-28-2013, 09:44 PM
Yeah, I forgot about Grave Wrappings. Those neg levels must help a good bit.

For Ginsu, I could get... 11 levels of fighter and 3 of ranger, then LR + 1 the Paladin level to fighter.
Then there's the fact that the Ginsu wasn't made with BF stats in mind, so... yeah. Tomes. Wouldn't be a problem if I was VIP for monthly points, but unfortunately I don't have that.
I could just not go bladeforged, but tbh, I'm not that fond of scroll healing.

Hm, guess my plan for now is to get this Monkcher I currently have to 20, then do epics for gear(including trying to get eSoS) and EDs(for Twists)... Now I wonder, maybe I could roll up a BF monkcher...

I did get the Cloudburst and Insanity greatswords, so those would help me. Guess I should've saved my second raider box until I figured out what build I wanted, eh? At least Sireth has x3 with that TA enhancement.

Just curious, could the eSoS be better at single target DPS than dual Balizardes?

There you go :)

eSoS is about as good as balizarde + (insert epic light weapon here, eSting comes to mind), but much harder to get.





You never cease to help me, eh, elg?

Just OCD as ****, but you're welcome :)





If tomes weren't an issue, which build(not counting THF, just stick, using the levels you suggested)) would you think is best for: soloing, damage, trash? Guessing TWF/Stick would be better in raw damage due to crit range, but then again, maybe the # of attacks(+doublestrike, and cleaves/Momentum/Lay Waste) would make TWF higher in that category. Woodfist seems better for trash due to stunning fist and quivering palm, especially on EE, but it seems to me the focus on the DCs makes actual damage lower than, say TWF. Course I've no clue for sure, but this is what it looks like to me.
To me out, of the three, stick has the highest numbers(maybe attack speed is close to twf as well due to the qstaff att speed enhancement?) and maybe highest fort bypass(due to the rogue feat that gives -10%), twf has the highest amount of crits due to offhand + attack speed, and Woodfist has the highest # of attacks(probably not crits due to 19-20 range instead of 13/14-20 like the others) and the instakills(and Grave Wrappings for neg levels) for trash.

In retrospect, I shouldn't have specifically said the Woodfist build for unarmed.
I'm thinking of going 16mnk/3rng/1fight or maybe 4ng(will get precise shot either way), but that wouldn't change the importance of tomes. If I had +3 or 4 in the stats needed, then I'd try it. Planning on stick for now, because really, I doubt I'll be getting eSoS any time soon.


OK, first of all, forget those builds; munkenmo is a 437th life maniac with gear that you've only read about, ginsu is entirely wrong for BF, and the red arrow is a glass cannon.

Unarmed on a BF is just too tricky without serious tomes; the DEX hit is too great to get the feats without 11 ranger, which kills your unarmed damage. Munkenmo does it with +5 tomes in 3 stats; more, actually, but it requires 3.

TWF is in a similar state, except that 11 ranger/x paladin/whatever is certainly a workable platform, and gives you your ranged option. That's not my style, though, so I'll let someone else talk about that.

A good stick build needs 1 rogue, for 15% attack speed boost, 6 monk, for henshin (your damage) and ninja (your defense), and whatever else you deem best.

Give me a few, I'm building something up that might work.

Edit:

OK, bear in mind that it's Thanksgiving night and I might have drunk half a bottle of egg-nog mixed with brandy, so I'm not making any promises that this makes any sense at all, but here goes. I call it Batonmorte:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.03
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 28 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(6 Monk \ 1 Rogue \ 13 Wizard \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 368
Spell Points: 1325
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 13
Will: 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28)
Strength 16 24
Dexterity 14 14
Constitution 16 18
Intelligence 16 18
Wisdom 6 6
Charisma 6 6

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 28)
Balance 2 10
Bluff -2 6
Concentration 3 12
Diplomacy -2 6
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -2 6
Heal -2 6
Hide 2 10
Intimidate -2 6
Jump 3 15
Listen -2 6
Move Silently 2 10
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 3 12
Search 3 12
Spellcraft 3 12
Spot -2 6
Swim 3 15
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge


Level 4 (Wizard)


Level 5 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 7 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light


Level 8 (Wizard)


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 10 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell


Level 11 (Monk)


Level 12 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Master of Forms
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Precision


Level 13 (Wizard)


Level 14 (Wizard)


Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 16 (Wizard)


Level 17 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell


Level 18 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Grandmaster of Forms


Level 19 (Wizard)


Level 20 (Wizard)


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Blinding Speed


Level 28 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Elusive Target




Tier 5 Henshin mystic, 20ish AP in racial, 11 AP in EK, 11 AP in ninja, 4 in Thief -Acrobat.

Buff and utility spells; Knock, in particular, since it lets you dump Open Lock and you will be skill point tight. Reconstruct, Tenser's Transformation, and one open level 6 spell (Acid Fog, Disintegrate, Greater Heroism are all good choices here), and 2 level 7 spell slots.

Max staff DPS; Sireth will be better and faster than eSoS. Tenser's Transformation will have to be cast instead of toggled, but that is an option; there is no other way to get Staff Specialization, and the negative level strike is invaluable.

It will require a +1 LR for BF, although you could so something similar with 12 sorc/6 monk/2 paladin; better saves, but lower DPS and no trapping.

Kingault
11-28-2013, 10:54 PM
You terrify me, elg.
Yet, it's so... beautiful.
Question: If I go BF with that build, think I should swap some APs for Power of the Forge?

But yeah, I figured those builds weren't the best for what I have/BF, but eh. Figured it was better than just being overly vague. Maybe not.
Guess this will be the first time I'm going wizzy.
Forgot that Henshin also had the +1 staff crit range/multi enhancement.
Thanks, elg.
By the way... what ED would you recommend for this? LD?

Munkenmo
11-28-2013, 11:06 PM
I would actually recommend against my build for a newer player. (as much as i'm flattered btw, I'd also recommend against linking it, you could get in trouble)

I'll also agree antipode sucks. Fortunately I can equip my random gen shattering and EE thunder & lightning again now :D

Kingault
11-28-2013, 11:11 PM
I would actually recommend against my build for a newer player. (as much as i'm flattered btw, I'd also recommend against linking it, you could get in trouble)

I'll also agree antipode sucks. Fortunately I can equip my random gen shattering and EE thunder & lightning again now :D

Eh, was just linking that for some sort of comparison to what I wanted, even if I didn't have the tomes needed. It was the best example of what I was aiming for that I could find. But yeah, such a build would only really work with higher tomes, and alright, I'll remove the link. Thanks for warning me.

Completely forgot about Henshin. Heh.
I forget, is Antipode actually bad for its level, or is it just overshadowed by Grave Wrappings/EE T&L?

Munkenmo
11-28-2013, 11:15 PM
If you haven't gotten a lot of tomes yet and are dead set on a bladeforged (they're awesome btw), I'd look into something like an 8fighter, 9monk, 3paladin. (a variation of carpones Centred cleaver build)

If you've still got a raiders reward box, grab the cleaver and roll with that.

pros-
centred w. favored weapon
improved evasion
cha to saves
low tome dependance.

voodoogroves
11-28-2013, 11:19 PM
If you're making a stick build, isn't rogue 2 pretty much required for the latent attack speed boost?

Kingault
11-28-2013, 11:21 PM
If you haven't gotten a lot of tomes yet and are dead set on a bladeforged (they're awesome btw), I'd look into something like an 8fighter, 9monk, 3paladin. (a variation of carpones Centred cleaver build)

If you've still got a raiders reward box, grab the cleaver and roll with that.

pros-
centred w. favored weapon
improved evasion
cha to saves
low tome dependance.

Funny story.... I kinda decided to use up my raiders boxes on Sireth/Pinion a few days ago for some reason... Heh.... Oh well, I could just run CitW on my current life once I reach the levels for it, if I decide to try this build out, maybe if I ever feel like trying something else again. (Not like there's any endgame yet, eh?)

Munkenmo
11-28-2013, 11:23 PM
Eh, was just linking that for some sort of comparison, even if I didn't have the tomes needed. It was the best example for what I wanted I could find. But yeah, such a build would only really work with higher tomes, and alright, I'll remove the link. Thanks for warning me.

Completely forgot about Henshin. Heh.
I forget, is Antipode actually bad for its level, or is it just overshadowed by Grave Wrappings/EE T&L?

Imo antipode is pretty garbage. I only keep them for the set bonus if I need to boost my PRR in EE's.

Gravewrappings are easily the better choice for trash, EE & TL Definately the better choice for non immune mobs.

Personally though, I've come to favor shattering wraps since my Quivering Palm dc needs more work than my stunning fist.

Kingault
11-28-2013, 11:28 PM
Imo antipode is pretty garbage. I only keep them for the set bonus if I need to boost my PRR in EE's.

Gravewrappings are easily the better choice for trash, EE & TL Definately the better choice for non immune mobs.

Personally though, I've come to favor shattering wraps since my Quivering Palm dc needs more work than my stunning fist.

Heh, yeah. No need to level drain trash mobs if you can just instantly kill them, right?

Munkenmo
11-28-2013, 11:43 PM
Hmm just noticed you're not overly interested in EE's and have a +5 tome.

If I may, the most irritating stat for me when building 2wf toons is dex, it's a stat I only ever invest enough into to reach pre-reqs. If you get to choose your +5 tome and are seriously considering 2wf over 2hf, choosing a +5 dex tome will be your most beneficial option.

assuming your bladeforged is a 36pt build you could do my build as follows:

17 base str +2 tome, +4 levels
12 base dex +5 tome
11 base con
8 base int
16 base wis +2tome +3 levels
8 base cha

If you could get your mits on a +3 str and +3 wis tome, you would be able to pick up vorpal fists and overwhelming crit (putting 3 levels up into str, rest into wis, then feat swapping at level 28.)

I wouldn't take my build into EE's without all the pastlives i've acquired though. But it'd be still be great in EH/EN.

Kingault
11-28-2013, 11:55 PM
Hmm just noticed you're not overly interested in EE's and have a +5 tome.

If I may, the most irritating stat for me when building 2wf toons is dex, it's a stat I only ever invest enough into to reach pre-reqs. If you get to choose your +5 tome and are seriously considering 2wf over 2hf, choosing a +5 dex tome will be your most beneficial option.

assuming your bladeforged is a 36pt build you could do my build as follows:

17 base str +2 tome, +4 levels
12 base dex +5 tome
11 base con
8 base int
16 base wis +2tome +3 levels
8 base cha

If you could get your mits on a +3 str and +3 wis tome, you would be able to pick up vorpal fists and overwhelming crit (putting 3 levels up into str, rest into wis, then feat swapping at level 28.)

I wouldn't take my build into EE's without all the pastlives i've acquired though. But it'd be still be great in EH/EN.

Hm, didn't think of that. Good idea.
Suppose I could try both elg's and your builds and see which one I have more fun playing as.

Question, would dual wielding balizardes be better dps than unarmed due to much higher crit range(and a +! higher crit multi), or would the greater attack speed of unarmed(and quivering palm, I suppose, for trash), make up for that? Then again, it's not all about dps... Looking at just dps when comparing builds isn't really wise, I think.
Then again, I suppose it's more of which I'd prefer playing...
I'd have to try all three to see what I like/enjoy the most.

I may have done THF in my first life and TWF in my second, but those were both as pure fighters a year or two ago, so... yeah, much has changed since then.

Thanks for the advice.

Munkenmo
11-29-2013, 12:05 AM
Balizarde would definately fall behind wraps even with it's crit range. It's not that great a DPS weapon, and you'd need 8 fighter levels to be centered with it.

taking into account empty handed mastery and 16monk levels.
with no wraps your fists will be 3[1d8], and the balizarde will be 2.5[1d8]

The crits would slightly help balizarde for a while, but it wouldn't even take a good set of wraps to out do them.

Kingault
11-29-2013, 12:14 AM
Balizarde would definately fall behind wraps even with it's crit range. It's not that great a DPS weapon, and you'd need 8 fighter levels to be centered with it.

taking into account empty handed mastery and 16monk levels.
with no wraps your fists will be 3[1d8], and the balizarde will be 2.5[1d8]

The crits would slightly help balizarde for a while, but it wouldn't even take a good set of wraps to out do them.

Ahh, I see.
Just wanted to get reinforcement for elg's saying that unarmed is better, back in another of my threads about... uh, I think about what twf weapons were the best.. either that or my twf or monckher thread. Knew he was right but I wanted backing up of that, I suppose. Not sure what goes in my mind sometimes.

Now there's only 2 styles left. That makes things much simpler...
Not sure why I suddenly decided to consider a stick build, tbh.
The build elg posted would give me more sustain, among other things, but... fighting with your fists is pretty cool.(Brilliant reasoning here.)
Guess I'll just have to try both.

elg582
11-29-2013, 07:44 AM
I use EE adamantine knuckles on my unarmed monk most of the time; nothing says DPS like 8d8 fists at unarmed attack speed with 100% off-hand proc and 3 red augments :)

The staff, though; it's hard to beat Sireth with Staff Spec, now. You only need 1 rogue for 15% attack speed boost, since the Henshin line is otherwise as good or better than the Thief-Acrobat line. I actually use it (without tier 5 Henshin) on my monkcher for my melee option; Lighting the Candle also works on bows, and you can get staff DPS up with less feat investment than TWF/unarmed.

Anyway, you seem to be narrowing down your options; let us know how it turns out :)

Kingault
11-29-2013, 09:37 AM
I use EE adamantine knuckles on my unarmed monk most of the time; nothing says DPS like 8d8 fists at unarmed attack speed with 100% off-hand proc and 3 red augments :)

The staff, though; it's hard to beat Sireth with Staff Spec, now. You only need 1 rogue for 15% attack speed boost, since the Henshin line is otherwise as good or better than the Thief-Acrobat line. I actually use it (without tier 5 Henshin) on my monkcher for my melee option; Lighting the Candle also works on bows, and you can get staff DPS up with less feat investment than TWF/unarmed.

Anyway, you seem to be narrowing down your options; let us know how it turns out :)

Let's say I went unarmed but wanted to have some ranged when needed as well, do you think it would be viable to go 16mnk/4 rng or 16mnk/3rng/1fighter(don't know why I would pick those, tbh, same # of feats as 4 ranger), and sacrifice a feat or two to go manyshot? Would I be missing out on much other than .5 unarmed die and some saves?
As powerful as monckher is(sweet paralyzing arrows), part of me doesn't want to use a build(er, builds, since there are many monkchers), that's a dime a dozen.

elg582
11-29-2013, 07:45 PM
Let's say I went unarmed but wanted to have some ranged when needed as well, do you think it would be viable to go 16mnk/4 rng or 16mnk/3rng/1fighter(don't know why I would pick those, tbh, same # of feats as 4 ranger), and sacrifice a feat or two to go manyshot? Would I be missing out on much other than .5 unarmed die and some saves?
As powerful as monckher is(sweet paralyzing arrows), part of me doesn't want to use a build(er, builds, since there are many monkchers), that's a dime a dozen.


There isn't much synergy between unarmed and bow to begin with: They want different EDs, ranged is feat intensive, and unarmed is a huge AP sink. Then BF take hits to both DEX and WIS, both of which you need for that mix, and it's just hopeless.

Monkcher is top notch DPS with minimal investment, but difficult for the same reason that unarmed is tough: You need DEX and WIS to run it, and BF don't get those.

So ranged is never going to be more than your burst option; 11 ranger/whatever gives you full TWF and most of the major ranged feats, or go THF and either take the ranged feats or go without.

Kingault
11-29-2013, 08:16 PM
There isn't much synergy between unarmed and bow to begin with: They want different EDs, ranged is feat intensive, and unarmed is a huge AP sink. Then BF take hits to both DEX and WIS, both of which you need for that mix, and it's just hopeless.

Monkcher is top notch DPS with minimal investment, but difficult for the same reason that unarmed is tough: You need DEX and WIS to run it, and BF don't get those.

So ranged is never going to be more than your burst option; 11 ranger/whatever gives you full TWF and most of the major ranged feats, or go THF and either take the ranged feats or go without.

Hm, yeah, was thinking just many shot w/out slaying/fury, but in retrospect, I'd do more damage unarmed. Guess I'll just go 17mnk/3rng(tempest 10% offhand chance) if I go unarmed. Think a fighter level for the Kensai DC enhancement is worth it/the AP? Don't think +3 is worth the investment but I'd like to see what you think.
Remind me again, why does your Mad Monk build have 4 fighter/ranger levels each? Just curious.

elg582
11-29-2013, 09:20 PM
Hm, yeah, was thinking just many shot w/out slaying/fury, but in retrospect, I'd do more damage unarmed. Guess I'll just go 17mnk/3rng(tempest 10% offhand chance) if I go unarmed. Think a fighter level for the Kensai DC enhancement is worth it/the AP? Don't think +3 is worth the investment but I'd like to see what you think.
Remind me again, why does your Mad Monk build have 4 fighter/ranger levels each? Just curious.

4 ranger was for 10% off-hand proc and Ram's might (+3 damage/hit at the fastest attack speed...); 4 fighter was for feats, boosts, and a few more HP than 2 more levels of ranger, since I didn't have the feats to spare for ranged, anyway. Again, though, that's a 3rd-life monk with tons of gear, and would be crazy hard to pull off as a BF.

Kingault
11-29-2013, 09:29 PM
4 ranger was for 10% off-hand proc and Ram's might (+3 damage/hit at the fastest attack speed...); 4 fighter was for feats, boosts, and a few more HP than 2 more levels of ranger, since I didn't have the feats to spare for ranged, anyway. Again, though, that's a 3rd-life monk with tons of gear, and would be crazy hard to pull off as a BF.

Hm, good point. I have the third life bit down, but I've nowhere near a good amount of gear...
Forgot about Ram's Might as well. Heh.
Would 16mnk 4 rng work with BF then, or am I better off going pure monk or something?

elg582
11-29-2013, 10:57 PM
Hm, good point. I have the third life bit down, but I've nowhere near a good amount of gear...
Forgot about Ram's Might as well. Heh.
Would 16mnk 4 rng work with BF then, or am I better off going pure monk or something?

4 ranger is better DPS; pure monk has better DCs, but without high WIS, it doesn't matter, which means that you don't need 16 monk for Quivering Palm, so you can drop down to 12.

I don't envy your grinding out the gear for it, though.

Kingault
11-29-2013, 11:10 PM
4 ranger is better DPS; pure monk has better DCs, but without high WIS, it doesn't matter, which means that you don't need 16 monk for Quivering Palm, so you can drop down to 12.

I don't envy your grinding out the gear for it, though.
Is the -2 from BF that big of a deal?

Speaking of gear... What should I get then?

Tbh I was thinking of a EE Addy Knuckles slotted with 2 Mabar Neg level augments and either a third one, if I can farm enough or good dr. Course, it depends on whether we'll be able to do this next year, and whether I'll be able to get 9 signets(3 for another tome). Got 4 this year, 3 for tome, 1 that I wasted on festival solar for some reason, so meh.
Other than that, I've been working on the Epic Artifice Ring, have a level 20 Mabar cloak(not sure what would be be better. There's the eveningstar one for dcs, but you know), Epic spare hand(again for dcs, so... eh. Would be nice for a stick build if I wanted to put points for traps.)

elg582
11-29-2013, 11:33 PM
Is the -2 from BF that big of a deal?

OK, you need 23 STR for Overwhelming Critical (not really optional), 17 DEX for GTWF (this is not at all optional, and you have -2 here, too), and only so many points left over for even a hilariously low CON (munkenmo has a +5 CON tome, too, and is still a little low here) and WIS, which you would like to get to 23 for Vorpal Fists (optional, but REALLY nice).






Speaking of gear... What should I get then?

Epic Ring of the Stalker
Epic Brawling Gloves
ToD ring (be careful, the shintao set effect has a hidden threat bonus), add Holy Burst for DR-breaking
Adamantine Knuckles
Pick your set bonus: Sun Soul is easy to get and has a nice shield effect in earth stance; black dragonscale set gives 15% fort bypass, but sucks to farm.
Lootgen/skirmishers/greensteel for the rest.




Tbh I was thinking of a EE Addy Knuckles slotted with 2 Mabar Neg level augments and either a third one, if I can farm enough or good dr. Course, it depends on whether we'll be able to do this next year, and whether I'll be able to get 11 signets. Got 4 this year, 3 for tome, 1 that I wasted on festival solar for some reason, so meh.
Other than that, I've been working on the Epic Artifice Ring, have a level 20 Mabar cloak(not sure what would be be better. There's the eveningstar one for dcs, but you know), Epic spare hand(again for dcs, so... eh. Would be nice for a stick build if I wanted to put points for traps.)

Yea, I use the mabar cloak; grab the skirmisher's helm if you want combat mastery. I use Sun Soul, so no spare hand for me. Neg level augments don't work on bosses, though, so maybe 2 sets of addy knuckles :)

Munkenmo
11-29-2013, 11:38 PM
Is the -2 from BF that big of a deal?


No.

Bladeforged get +3 tactics for 3ap, and effectively an extra +2 dc from the shaken enhancement.

your tactics on a bladeforged will be better than any race except helf.

and maybe a longsword wielding pdk, but that's ridiculous.

Munkenmo
11-29-2013, 11:50 PM
OK, you need 23 STR for Overwhelming Critical (not really optional), 17 DEX for GTWF (this is not at all optional, and you have -2 here, too), and only so many points left over for even a hilariously low CON (munkenmo has a +5 CON tome, too, and is still a little low here) and WIS, which you would like to get to 23 for Vorpal Fists (optional, but REALLY nice).


It's not 2011 anymore, the 30hp per base con bracket is not worth more than 4 build points imo.

Despite my low con, I've got 900hp and a reconstruct SLA that hits me for 510hp.

Your right, 23wis/str and 17dex are required, a serious investment in con, not so much.

Kingault
11-30-2013, 12:15 AM
Hm...
Guess I'll try to get +3 tomes for... two of DEX/WIS/STR(whichever one I don't use the +5 in). Would help with the hole -2 thing. Would say -4 but I doubt I'll ever get even one of those.
Reason why I want to use addy knuckles for trash instead of Grave Wraps, other than more hit dice, is because I'd rather not spend TP on an alignment change. Then again, I might have enough TP just from favor by then... And the +10 stunning from Grave Wraps does look quite appetizing, should I decide to try for DCs after all..
Hum.
For rings, I suppose, if i was willing, I could farm +10 sunder(for quivering) Run Robar(trash) and ERotS, and swap to the ToD ring for DR.
Was planning on Epic Ring of the M.A. for the recon bonuses and Archmagi, but a red augment would give more repair spell power... Unfortunately, Grave Wrapshas no slots if I decide to use those after all...

...Stick build sure looks appealing. Seems simpler in terms of gear.
...............I think.

Munkenmo
11-30-2013, 12:31 AM
Hm...
Guess I'll try to get +3 tomes for... two of DEX/WIS/STR(whichever one I don't use the +5 in)

I wouldn't build a 2wf bladeforged without a +4 dex tome, even with all my gear and pastlives.

If you're going for the stick build I'd definitely use that +5 tome on strength though.

elg582
11-30-2013, 08:09 AM
Hm...
...Stick build sure looks appealing. Seems simpler in terms of gear.


That's what I've been trying to tell you :)

That's also why I have 3 stick builds and only 1 unarmed character.

Kingault
11-30-2013, 09:53 AM
That's what I've been trying to tell you :)

That's also why I have 3 stick builds and only 1 unarmed character.

Why must Turbine make it difficult to beat up foes with your fists.


Eh I could just ignore the stunning/quivering dcs like you said. No point putting effort in getting them to almost good enough if they're still not good enough.
What are the DCs like on EH, anyway?

And yeah, guess I'll be going stick after(just as I planned), for now, unless I get seriously lucky with tomes/etc on my monkcher.

Thanks.
The main problem is whether I can stomach leveling nowadays.
Not much PUG activity when I'm on, and low quality groups generally.
Not much point for me to make these builds if I can't really enjoy the game in general, huh.
Knew I should've stayed back in 2012 instead of quitting because I disliked what I TRed into...

By the way, elg, the build you posted kinda has low HP.

elg582
11-30-2013, 08:33 PM
By the way, elg, the build you posted kinda has low HP.

OK, you know that the listed HP is without items or enhancements, right? :)

Kingault
11-30-2013, 09:22 PM
OK, you know that the listed HP is without items or enhancements, right? :)

Eh.

elg582
11-30-2013, 10:01 PM
Eh.

It's listed as 368; my Mad Monk is listed as 397, but buffs to well over 1000hp. I think ~1250 is the highest I've seen, with positive energy infusion, primal scream, and triple rage.

Kingault
11-30-2013, 10:55 PM
It's listed as 368; my Mad Monk is listed as 397, but buffs to well over 1000hp. I think ~1250 is the highest I've seen, with positive energy infusion, primal scream, and triple rage.

Yeah, I figured.

Kingault
12-02-2013, 06:05 PM
Hm, think, for EH, if I somehow got +4 tomes and decided to go unarmed, that 16mnk/4rng would be good for both dps AND fist/palm DCs? Considered 16mnk/3rng/1fght for the +3 DC enhancement, but then I'd lose Ram's Might.
Course, this is in theory because, you know +4 tomes.

Now, this isn't related to BF as they use docents, but do you know whether the +1 die from VoSS/Caparison stack with the bonus dice from Addy knuckles?
If I decided to go monk, I'd probably go half elf due to lack of tomes, tbh, and frankly, that wouldn't be so bad. Even with BF, problem is that I'd only have like 200-300 SP with an unarmed build, for the recon SLA. Power of the Forge is tempting, yes...

Eh, whatever, good thing I don't have the race yet, so I'm not all "but I need to make a build using BF so it wouldn't go to waste."
Stick build still viable.
I'll figure out what I want once I reach epic levels and get more gear/etc, and see what I can do and what I can't.

Munkenmo
12-02-2013, 06:54 PM
Hm, think, for EH, if I somehow got +4 tomes and decided to go unarmed, that 16mnk/4rng would be good for both dps AND fist/palm DCs? Considered 16mnk/3rng/1fght for the +3 DC enhancement, but then I'd lose Ram's Might.
Course, this is in theory because, you know +4 tomes.

If I decided to go monk, I'd probably go half elf due to lack of tomes, tbh, and frankly, that wouldn't be so bad. Even with BF, problem is that I'd only have like 200-300 SP with an unarmed build, for the recon SLA. Power of the Forge is tempting, yes...

If you want DC's you'll want fighter for +3 tactics.

regarding the SP: It's why I went 2wizard
80sp Magical Training
145 sp Mental Toughness: wiz bonus feat
75sp 2 wizard levels
250sp Yellow augment crystal
66sp int modifier (20int)
--------------------
616sp More is possible but this is enough for 24 recons per rest. (24*500 = 12000 points of healing per rest)

Power of the forge is indeed awesome, It's especially good when coupled with kensai hasteboost and extra action boosts ;)

Kingault
12-02-2013, 11:36 PM
If you want DC's you'll want fighter for +3 tactics.

regarding the SP: It's why I went 2wizard
80sp Magical Training
145 sp Mental Toughness: wiz bonus feat
75sp 2 wizard levels
250sp Yellow augment crystal
66sp int modifier (20int)
--------------------
616sp More is possible but this is enough for 24 recons per rest. (24*500 = 12000 points of healing per rest)

Power of the forge is indeed awesome, It's especially good when coupled with kensai hasteboost and extra action boosts ;)

Fair enough.
Course, I could try to make do with a 250 crystal and consider putting 4 points in AA for the SP while keeping 16mnk/3rng/1fght or 4ng(tbh I probably wouldn't notice the boost from Ram's and I'd probably keep forgetting to buff with it.) and stock some SP pots... Hm
Or I could stop acting like BF is the only option... even if it seems to be the new EZ Mode race for some builds with the built in recon. Then again, soloing ability.
Meh.

Kingault
12-04-2013, 11:11 PM
Hm, still considering a centered GS build, even though I'm not sure what advantages it has over a stick build, other than glancing blows. Even then, I'm not sure whether those deal much. Don't remember how much my glancing blows did in comparison to main attacks two years back...

Meh. Still want to go unarmed even though it would be more difficult, both lootwise and statwise, as we're gone over multiple times already.
Eh not like it's that big of a deal for EH.


Anyway...
Leveling from 17-20 always seems to be slow for me once I've elite cleared Vale and Kolbold. Guess I'm still used to just running quests once each... That and the whole "PUG scene much less lively nowadays" thing...
Guess I should join one of these guilds....
Wait this has nothing to do with BFs....

Think BF Shuriken thrower is a good idea? Guessing not due to -dex which is important for the bonus %, and -wis for the same reason... and lack bonuses for Shurikens that Drow get...

Tscheuss
12-04-2013, 11:59 PM
this is not the thread I thought it would be. :)