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KookieKobold
11-22-2013, 01:45 PM
Hey everyone!

We've just updated and opened the Lamannia server with the first part of our Update 20 Patch 1 build.

Squeak will post the release notes and known issues shortly when she is finished writing them up.


Keep your eyes on this thread for a bit more information to come.


See you online!

DrOctothorpe
11-22-2013, 01:46 PM
Hi all! Some changes to random loot are now live in Lamannia. Namely, a bunch of "classic" weapon affixes have returned to the pool. I would like to state this right out and as clearly as possible - this is an early glimpse of the first stage of our work to address the random loot diversity issue. Among other things, this means:


a) There are some affixes in here that we already know we're taking out. Ghosttouch and some of the old banes snuck into the Lamannia build, but they are already out back here at dev central.


b) You won't see any of the shiny MotU affixes. We're working on them, but due to some technical considerations, they couldn't just be taken off the shelf and plopped back in the game. We anticipate adding these as we can, soon.


So please bear with the couple of undesirable affixes I've mentioned, and let us know how you feel about the loot drop frequency and nature of the other re-animated affixes. And thanks - your feedback is appreciated!

Permian
11-22-2013, 01:52 PM
I win.

Teh_Troll
11-22-2013, 01:56 PM
So would it cost me flowers, a fruit-basket, or a big box of cookies to get you guys to put healing amp on yellow-slots?

Wizza
11-22-2013, 01:57 PM
b) You won't see any of the shiny MotU affixes. We're working on them, but due to some technical considerations, they couldn't just be taken off the shelf and plopped back in the game. We anticipate adding these as we can, soon.


Technical considerations? Like what? There were never been an issue with those affixes.

rimble
11-22-2013, 02:02 PM
Technical considerations? Like what? There were never an issue with those affixes.

Yeah, but the item system got modified at a low level since then. I would assume those enchantments don't play well with the 'auto calculated min level' stuff they introduced.

Avenir
11-22-2013, 02:26 PM
So would it cost me flowers, a fruit-basket, or a big box of cookies to get you guys to put healing amp on yellow-slots?

This ....a thousand times.

R1ncewind
11-22-2013, 02:49 PM
So would it cost me flowers, a fruit-basket, or a big box of cookies to get you guys to put healing amp on yellow-slots?
SOON in the ddo store,...

Scraap
11-22-2013, 02:53 PM
SOON in the ddo store,...

Shhh they'll Hear You.

Teh_Troll
11-22-2013, 02:55 PM
SOON in the ddo store,...

I'm okay with that, as long as they can still be earned in game.

Krelar
11-22-2013, 02:58 PM
I'm okay with that, as long as they can still be earned in game.

It will be the 6000 favor reward. :p

Scraap
11-22-2013, 03:04 PM
I'm okay with that, as long as they can still be earned in game.

Joking aside, something like, say: Store or 10/20/30 for each tier of silver flame favor would seem thematically appropriate and an acceptable amount of grind.

Vellrad
11-22-2013, 03:08 PM
I'm okay with that, as long as they can still be earned in game.

Does selling EE gear for codes counts?

HungarianRhapsody
11-22-2013, 03:09 PM
So would it cost me flowers, a fruit-basket, or a big box of cookies to get you guys to put healing amp on yellow-slots?

I will personally buy pizza for the entire development staff if you add healing amp, Greater Heroism and Immunity to Fear as yellow augments.

As much as I'd love to see FoM made yellow, I recognize that might be too much.

Contrex
11-22-2013, 03:10 PM
So would it cost me flowers, a fruit-basket, or a big box of cookies to get you guys to put healing amp on yellow-slots?

This. It's a joke how biased good augments are to blue slots. Heal amp would go a long way to fix that.

Krelar
11-22-2013, 03:12 PM
I will personally buy pizza for the entire development staff if you add healing amp, Greater Heroism and Immunity to Fear as yellow augments.

As much as I'd love to see FoM made yellow, I recognize that might be too much.

Fear immunity is already a level 8 yellow augment available from either the epic trader in the 12 or from collectible turn ins.

Teh_Troll
11-22-2013, 03:13 PM
Does selling EE gear for codes counts?

I'll let you know if I ever manage to sell something for a code. I really need to update The Troll Exchange.

Teh_Troll
11-22-2013, 03:14 PM
I will personally buy pizza for the entire development staff if you add healing amp, Greater Heroism and Immunity to Fear as yellow augments.

As much as I'd love to see FoM made yellow, I recognize that might be too much.

I'd chip in for that.

Since our lobbying doesn't always work I think we might have to go to straight bribery.

Kace
11-22-2013, 03:15 PM
It could always be a single named augment that drops out of a chest in the desert once inna million times. The 'bilestone'!

Vellrad
11-22-2013, 03:16 PM
I'll let you know if I ever manage to sell something for a code. I really need to update The Troll Exchange.

I sold 1 EE ring from WGU lately, so its looks like who sells is more important on what is beign sold.

Teh_Troll
11-22-2013, 03:18 PM
I sold 1 EE ring from WGU lately, so its looks like who sells is more important on what is beign sold.

I wonder what a Draconic Soulgem goes for . . .

Vellrad
11-22-2013, 03:20 PM
I wonder what a Draconic Soulgem goes for . . .

A single hjeal probably.

Erofen
11-22-2013, 03:26 PM
I wonder what a Draconic Soulgem goes for . . .
Looks like someone forgot the recent feature. XD

Teh_Troll
11-22-2013, 03:43 PM
Looks like someone forgot the recent feature. XD

To my knowledge that feature was not used for that item on my server. Though a quick check of the Shard Exchange can confirm that.

DemonStorm333
11-22-2013, 03:48 PM
any news on release notes yet I would like to read them before 6 pm est as I will be in eso for the night got my first beta invite YAY me

Thar
11-22-2013, 03:56 PM
Hi all! Some changes to random loot are now live in Lamannia. Namely, a bunch of "classic" weapon affixes have returned to the pool. I would like to state this right out and as clearly as possible - this is an early glimpse of the first stage of our work to address the random loot diversity issue. Among other things, this means:


a) There are some affixes in here that we already know we're taking out. Ghosttouch and some of the old banes snuck into the Lamannia build, but they are already out back here at dev central.


b) You won't see any of the shiny MotU affixes. We're working on them, but due to some technical considerations, they couldn't just be taken off the shelf and plopped back in the game. We anticipate adding these as we can, soon.


So please bear with the couple of undesirable affixes I've mentioned, and let us know how you feel about the loot drop frequency and nature of the other re-animated affixes. And thanks - your feedback is appreciated!

what was wrong with the old bane? greater evil outsider bane is one of the most used ever.

SqueakofDoom
11-22-2013, 04:06 PM
Release Notes ('https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/376774-Lamannia-Release-Notes-%28Last-Updated-11-22-2013%29?p=4503430#post4503430') and Known Issues ('https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/376772-Lamannia-Known-Issues-%28Last-Updated-11-22-2013%29?p=4503425#post4503425') have been updated.

Please note the following Known Issues (which should be fixed with the next Lamannia build):

If you die and then Release, you will remain dead. Using a Resurrection Shrine or Siberys Cake while in the quest or relogging after Releasing will solve the issue.
Commendations of Valor are currently not working. Double clicking on them does not bring up the Barter UI.

Additionally, I intend on running a script to fill the Auction House with Randomly Generated Weapons (of various levels) during the weekend.

Smiles,
Squeak

voodoogroves
11-22-2013, 04:08 PM
Does humanoid bane include monstrous humanoids?

Steam: 2 to 16 plus 8 ... is that just 10-24? Or is the expression 2d8+8?

Is there a save on Greater Sunburst, or is this like Blinding Embers?

Munkenmo
11-22-2013, 04:09 PM
The amount of bugs you guys have introduced to make "burden of guilt" is pathetic.

voodoogroves
11-22-2013, 04:15 PM
Nice that bards got a tweak, though unsure if it all will help. Of course, it's paired with a Spellsinger nerf.

Is there a cost for the Victory Song toggle? 1/song to turn it on?

If someone tests before I do, curious if WC doublestrike still doesn't stack with items or not (and thus, still redundant AND comes with a penalty).

Drwaz99
11-22-2013, 04:18 PM
Please note the following Known Issues:

If you die and then Release, you will remain dead. Using a Resurrection Shrine or Siberys Cake while in the quest or relogging after Releasing will solve the issue.



Seriously? So if a party I am in wipes completely - We all have to recall, relog and reform if we aren't near a shrine and nobody wants to use a cake?

That is beyond pathetic. It's incompetent. You can't fix something properly so you punish everyone in such a heavy handed manner. Way to be professional. That doesn't look childish and asinine at all.

*edit* was clarified after I posted this is only Lama for now. But we all know it doesn't take much for things seen here to go live. My opinion stands irregardless.

SqueakofDoom
11-22-2013, 04:37 PM
We are prioritizing previewing the adjustments to the Randomly Generated Weapons over the weekend. I know that the above Known Issues (particularly the death one) will be a pain to deal with (especially as you are testing out the mutations), but the alternative was to wait until after the weekend to open Lamannia.

The above Known Issues are only on Lamannia, and they should be fixed the next time Lamannia gets a new build.

I'd like to remind everyone that the standard Daily 2000 Free TP from Lord Poincelot ('https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/376759-Lamannia-Points-are-available-from-Lord-Poincelot') are available. I will also try to log in later tonight so I can spawn a bunch of Siberys Cakes in the Test Dojo.

danotmano1998
11-22-2013, 04:54 PM
If you die and then Release, you will remain dead

Wow, really?
That is special.

EllisDee37
11-22-2013, 05:10 PM
BOOOOOOO on changing metalline to suffix. BOOOO I say!

Please don't let this mess up the metalline shard in cannith crafting. Metalline of Pure Good is nice to be able to craft for lives when I feel too lazy to make specialized weapons.

HungarianRhapsody
11-22-2013, 05:24 PM
Release Notes (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/376774-Lamannia-Release-Notes-%28Last-Updated-11-22-2013%29?p=4503430#post4503430) and Known Issues (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/376772-Lamannia-Known-Issues-%28Last-Updated-11-22-2013%29?p=4503425#post4503425) have been updated.

Please note the following Known Issues (which should be fixed with the next Lamannia build):

If you die and then Release, you will remain dead. Using a Resurrection Shrine or Siberys Cake while in the quest or relogging after Releasing will solve the issue.
Commendations of Valor are currently not working. Double clicking on them does not bring up the Barter UI.

Additionally, I intend on running a script to fill the Auction House with Randomly Generated Weapons (of various levels) during the weekend.

Smiles,
Squeak

*NOT* cool. Don't mess with stuff that's working fine. If you want to do something about people who have inappropriate ML gear equipped, then do something about that directly. Don't punish people who aren't exploiting to take care of the broken code that you wrote. If Burden of Guilt isn't doing what you want it to do, then FIX BURDEN OF GUILT. Don't mess with stuff that isn't broken.

HungarianRhapsody
11-22-2013, 05:24 PM
BOOOOOOO on changing metalline to suffix. BOOOO I say!

Please don't let this mess up the metalline shard in cannith crafting. Metalline of Pure Good is nice to be able to craft for lives when I feel too lazy to make specialized weapons.

Holy of Metalline will still work fine.

PsychoBlonde
11-22-2013, 05:25 PM
I will personally buy pizza for the entire development staff if you add healing amp, Greater Heroism and Immunity to Fear as yellow augments.

Psst Immunity to Fear IS a yellow augment. GH is available as a clickie, potions, scrolls, an enhancement for humans, AND it's on the end reward Wheloon armor. So, really, just the healing amp is still difficult to obtain.

PsychoBlonde
11-22-2013, 05:26 PM
Holy of Metalline will still work fine.

With the added benefit that you don't have to be good-aligned or have UMD to use it.

The main problem is that it will no longer be possible to do metalline + bane or aligned + bane. No more metalline of construct bane for construct beaters, not that people really need those any more.

nibel
11-22-2013, 05:28 PM
Seriously, people? Raging over a bug in the testing server that was said beforehand that it is annoying, but will be fixed on the next release?

Munkenmo
11-22-2013, 05:42 PM
Seriously, people? Raging over a bug in the testing server that was said beforehand that it is annoying, but will be fixed on the next release?

try to /death on the live servers.

The amount of BS the devs are pulling since they can't fix a particular item bug is pathetic.

If I expected this bug to be fixed on lam I wouldn't care, but history shows it'll probably make it to live.

The reason behind it's implementation in the first place though is what's truly disgusting and does warrant negative feedback.

Nobody new can make use of this bug, there's only a small subsect of players who are still abusing it, but go summon a hireling with burden of guilt, or try /death when /stuck is on timer. Their "fixes" are actually more game breaking and effecting more people than the exploiters.

Scraap
11-22-2013, 05:47 PM
<sticking it in the right place>

Wizza
11-22-2013, 05:47 PM
try to /death on the live servers.

The amount of BS the devs are pulling since they can't fix a particular item bug is pathetic.

If I expected this bug to be fixed on lam I wouldn't care, but history shows it'll probably make it to live.

The reason behind it's implementation in the first place though is what's truly disgusting and does warrant negative feedback.

Nobody new can make use of this bug, there's only a small subsect of players who are still abusing it, but go summon a hireling with burden of guilt, or try /death when /stuck is on timer. Their "fixes" are actually more game breaking and effecting more people than the exploiters.

Did I miss something? What's up with /death and burden of guilt? I'm seriously asking.

Drwaz99
11-22-2013, 05:52 PM
Seriously, people? Raging over a bug in the testing server that was said beforehand that it is annoying, but will be fixed on the next release?

The past has shown that more and more "non-WAI" items make into the live servers. Some would debate that number is actually growing.

One could also debate that if they can't make something work correctly, introducing another item, which as presented now, doesn't work correctly in an attempt to "patch the patch" isn't the proper way to go about things.

Since everyone here like analogies: Sure it's ok to patch a hole in a tire, but if that patch develops a hole, no astute mechanic will patch the patch. It's dangerous and bound to lead to even more, unforeseen problems.

Munkenmo
11-22-2013, 06:01 PM
Did I miss something? What's up with /death and burden of guilt? I'm seriously asking.

devs disabled /death after it was realized that burden of guild doesn't persist through death.

Now this.

danotmano1998
11-22-2013, 06:03 PM
Did I miss something? What's up with /death and burden of guilt? I'm seriously asking.


If you're really curious, there are other places to look for detailed info. Try googling it and see where it leads you. ;)

EllisDee37
11-22-2013, 06:07 PM
Holy of Metalline will still work fine.For crafted demon beaters it's hard to beat +5 Metalline Flametouched Iron of Greater Evil Outsider Bane. It will work well against regular demons (cold iron + good) as well as xoriate demons (byeshk) and is not possible to make if metalline becomes a suffix.

You're right that metalline of pure good is easily replaced with holy of metalline, so on that I stand corrected. But I wouldn't want to see demon beaters take a hit.

3dent
11-22-2013, 07:40 PM
For crafted demon beaters it's hard to beat +5 Metalline Flametouched Iron of Greater Evil Outsider Bane. It will work well against regular demons (cold iron + good) as well as xoriate demons (byeshk) and is not possible to make if metalline becomes a suffix.

You're right that metalline of pure good is easily replaced with holy of metalline, so on that I stand corrected. But I wouldn't want to see demon beaters take a hit.

It all depends on whether or not they're pulling the old metalline... If not (and if there is some code that prevents generation of metalline of metalline stuff.) this is actually a buff.

Silverleafeon
11-22-2013, 07:58 PM
So would it cost me flowers, a fruit-basket, or a big box of cookies to get you guys to put healing amp on yellow-slots?

http://trueclassics.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/wiggins.jpg

http://trueclassics.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/wiggins.jpg

thomascoolone64
11-22-2013, 08:18 PM
Can yall please activate the Winter Ice games here PLEASE???

IronClan
11-22-2013, 10:27 PM
Nice that bards got a tweak, though unsure if it all will help. Of course, it's paired with a Spellsinger nerf.

Is there a cost for the Victory Song toggle? 1/song to turn it on?

If someone tests before I do, curious if WC doublestrike still doesn't stack with items or not (and thus, still redundant AND comes with a penalty).

What changes did they do to bard?

HungarianRhapsody
11-22-2013, 10:28 PM
Seriously, people? Raging over a bug in the testing server that was said beforehand that it is annoying, but will be fixed on the next release?

As long as it's a bug that actually will be fixed, then we won't need to be unhappy with the change. If that's a new "WAI", then there's a MAJOR problem.

Every time I log in to DDO, it takes more than 5 minutes and I have to do it twice to get in successfully (the first time I try to log in EVERY time fails). If I have to take a few minutes to log in to play DDO, that's annoying, but not completely insane. If I have to do that EVERY time I die in a quest when I'm soloing (and I solo most quests because that's the way that I prefer to play), then I'm just going to stop playing DDO entirely. That's not a threat. That's not "if you don't do this for me, then I'm taking my ball and going home". That's just a simple acknowledgement that I won't be able to play DDO anymore if I have to take between 5 and 10 minutes to relog every single time I die in a quest. I don't die all that often, but I do die once an hour or so when I'm soloing.

Having to heal up and then run back into the quest after it resets is not a big deal. Having to relog every time I die *is* a big deal.

HungarianRhapsody
11-22-2013, 10:30 PM
For crafted demon beaters it's hard to beat +5 Metalline Flametouched Iron of Greater Evil Outsider Bane. It will work well against regular demons (cold iron + good) as well as xoriate demons (byeshk) and is not possible to make if metalline becomes a suffix.

You're right that metalline of pure good is easily replaced with holy of metalline, so on that I stand corrected. But I wouldn't want to see demon beaters take a hit.

For crafted beaters, I'd very much prefer +5 Holy Silver of GEOB. It's an extra 2d6 of damage on each hit and the enemies that have Cold Iron DR don't have a whole lot of it aside from Lailat.

Propane
11-22-2013, 11:22 PM
I have several flametouched blanks I crafted Metalline of Vampirism - don't mess these up -

Metalline of Righteous is a great DR beaker as well-

If metalline can be EITHER or suffix or Perfix - great!

If switching Suffix only - BAD...

Propane
11-22-2013, 11:38 PM
•NEW: Spell Song Vigor now only affects a single target (as per its description)

Bard need love!

This feature (1 song affecting entire party) was on small bit of Love for them -

Consider Leaving it the way it is on live or make it stronger (2 or 3 times at least)

Singing the song 6 times at the beginning of a raid in not fun...

Bards need love - it is the holiday season :)

EllisDee37
11-23-2013, 06:12 AM
For crafted beaters, I'd very much prefer +5 Holy Silver of GEOB. It's an extra 2d6 of damage on each hit and the enemies that have Cold Iron DR don't have a whole lot of it aside from Lailat.That's a devil beater. I was talking about demon beaters. Your weapon doesn't break the DR of any demons.

Vellrad
11-23-2013, 06:15 AM
That's a devil beater. I was talking about demon beaters. Your weapon doesn't break the DR of any demons.

I think he meant, outside of Lailat, there are very few with cold iron+good DR, or that their DR can be ignored.

Anyway, don't worry about crafting.

They won't touch it, they probably even forgotten that it exists.

EllisDee37
11-23-2013, 06:19 AM
I think he meant, outside of Lailat, there are very few with cold iron+good DR, or that their DR can be ignored.There are lots of demons with Cold Iron+Good, and even more with Byeshk.


Anyway, don't worry about crafting.

They won't touch it, they probably even forgotten that it exists.Changing an effect's prefix/suffix status in lootgen has always had the same effect in cannith crafting.

What this means is if metalline as a suffix goes through, craft up a +5 metalline of gtr evil outsider bane with +15 potential now, and then when it goes live and metalline converts to a suffix slap holy burst on it too for holy burst metalline of gtr bane. Hard to beat that and you don't even need a special metal.

It would be +15 potential, though, so maybe go holy instead of holy burst to squeeze in an ML20 red augment of electricity damage.

Vellrad
11-23-2013, 06:25 AM
There are lots of demons with Cold Iron+Good, and even more with Byeshk.

I just checked the wiki.
Majority of demons got DR/good, or DR/good or cold iron (one, not both).
Demons with good+cold iron DR are: reavers, renders, flesners, etc. and mariliths.
Their DRs (like most of DRs in game now) are considered to be ignorable- most of players nowadays prefer to pick weapon that will deal more raw DPS, even if it won't bypass DR.



Changing an effect's prefix/suffix status in lootgen has always had the same effect in cannith crafting.

What this means is if metalline as a suffix goes through, craft up a +5 metalline of gtr evil outsider bane with +15 potential now, and then when it goes live and metalline converts to a suffix slap holy burst on it too for holy burst metalline of gtr bane. Hard to beat that and you don't even need a special metal. (It's +15 potential, though, so sadly you can't also fit a red augment slot.)

Didn't noticed that any crafting shards got changed, unless the entire mechanics got changed, like spellpower or spellpen.

But on the other hand, I didn't put much attention to it- the only thing I crafted lately was pair of holy of pure good shortswords and pair of acid burst of pure good shortswords. They work as they always used to (holy 2d6, acid burst 1d6 per hit, plus 1d10 per crit, pure good 1d6 per hit).

EllisDee37
11-23-2013, 06:43 AM
I just checked the wiki.
Majority of demons got DR/good, or DR/good or cold iron (one, not both).
Demons with good+cold iron DR are: reavers, renders, flesners, etc. and mariliths.
Their DRs (like most of DRs in game now) are considered to be ignorable- most of players nowadays prefer to pick weapon that will deal more raw DPS, even if it won't bypass DR.Majority of demons by what measure? There are two whole adventure packs crawling with DR/Byeshk demons, for example. (Plus a raid and raid wilderness.) There's a bunch of DR/Cold Iron + Good demons in the level 10 range, though zergers likely never even see them. Those who one-and-done all content know that demons become a real enemy at level 10-12. (But then go away until level 17, oddly.)

Anyway, to suggest that a crafted demon beater doesn't need to bother with breaking demon DR is, IMO, silly.


Didn't noticed that any crafting shards got changed, unless the entire mechanics got changed, like spellpower or spellpen.I do pay attention to cannith crafting, and yes it does auto-update based on changes to lootgen. This is why, for example, natural armor and proof against poison have to be applied first or you won't be able to put them on your item.

HungarianRhapsody
11-23-2013, 07:59 AM
That's a devil beater. I was talking about demon beaters. Your weapon doesn't break the DR of any demons.

Holy Silver of GEOB does an average of 7 damage more than Metalline Flametouched Iron of GEOB against demons with 0 DR (i.e. most demons). Against demons with dr 5/cold iron, it still does an average of 2 damage more than your weapon. The only demons against whom it does less damage is any demon with more than DR 7/cold iron. Since there are vanishingly few of those in the game, a Holy Silver of GEOB will be a better weapon against a large majority of demons (even demons with DR) than a Metalline Flametouched Iron of GEOB.

And if you have a serious need to go personally kick Lailit's behind with the best possible crafted beater, then you can still make a Holy or Holy Burst Cold Iron of GEOB that will be significantly better than the Metalline one.

More important than any debate over crafting, however, is the fact that /death isn't going to work and that we're going to have to relog every time we die if we're soloing. Since every odd numbered login I make results in a disconnection after several minutes (and it takes a few minutes for me to get into DDO even on a successful login), that's a problem. Forcing me to relog every time I die while soloing is the first completely 100% game breaking bug that has personally effected me.

And the fact that it's being introduced in order to fix Burden of Guilt which is a buggy workaround to punish exploiters is a problem. If you're going to punish exploiters, then punish the exploiters and leave the clean players alone. Don't mess with my game just to take care of a few people who are wearing gear with an inappropriate ML.

EllisDee37
11-23-2013, 08:30 AM
Holy Silver of GEOB does an average of 7 damage more than Metalline Flametouched Iron of GEOB against demons with 0 DR (i.e. most demons). Against demons with dr 5/cold iron, it still does an average of 2 damage more than your weapon. The only demons against whom it does less damage is any demon with more than DR 7/cold iron. Since there are vanishingly few of those in the game, a Holy Silver of GEOB will be a better weapon against a large majority of demons (even demons with DR) than a Metalline Flametouched Iron of GEOB.

And if you have a serious need to go personally kick Lailit's behind with the best possible crafted beater, then you can still make a Holy or Holy Burst Cold Iron of GEOB that will be significantly better than the Metalline one.Almost none of this is correct.

HungarianRhapsody
11-23-2013, 08:40 AM
Almost none of this is correct.

The part where Holy provides an extra 7 average damage per hit above what Metalline does is correct.
The part where anything with DR 7 or less will get *at least* as much damage from this as from a weapon with Metalline is correct.
The part where anything that has DR/Good or no DR at all will get 7 more average damage per hit is correct.
The part where most Demons don't have significant amounts of DR is correct.

What specific part do you think is incorrect?

Edit: I should have mentioned that anything with more than DR 7/Cold Iron or more than DR 7/Byshek would take less damage from the Holy than it does from the Metalline instead of just mentioning DR 7/Cold Iron. So I suppose that is a mistake. But the analysis in general is still valid.

LightBear
11-23-2013, 12:18 PM
a) There are some affixes in here that we already know we're taking out. Ghosttouch and some of the old banes snuck into the Lamannia build, but they are already out back here at dev central.


b) You won't see any of the shiny MotU affixes. We're working on them, but due to some technical considerations, they couldn't just be taken off the shelf and plopped back in the game. We anticipate adding these as we can, soon.




On a):
Don't take em out entirely, we just want more options.
And taking affixes out of the game will give us less choices.

On b):
I would love to see the shiny MotU affixes on the update 19 and 20 named items for the randomness on them.

EllisDee37
11-23-2013, 01:37 PM
What specific part do you think is incorrect?First you dismiss the value of a demon beater at all, and then you establish this by only looking at demons for whom demon beaters aren't needed. So, pretty much all of it.

How about Lailat? You know, the epic raid boss?

gnarledmaw
11-23-2013, 02:16 PM
And the fact that it's being introduced in order to fix Burden of Guilt which is a buggy workaround to punish exploiters is a problem.

There was absolutely NO EXCUSE for breaking the loot tables by raising ML on some items to ridiculous levels. Then with no warning or even any real conversations punishing players then labeling them exploiters!
Players are punished for something they broke? Something that has no real effect? I have some low level toons that are almost entirely geared with "exploits". Do they honestly think I intend to play to endgame wearing an ml6 item that they broke to be ml8? So what if a level 28 is running around with a lvl 30 item. It has no effect in the grand scheme of the game. Eventually that toon will TR AND NOT BE ABLE TO USE IT UNTIL THEY REACH THE NEW ML.

In my time playing this is honestly the issue that has me closest to quitting. At this point Im not sure if Im more mad at the devs or enraged at the shortsighted players who support this stupidity. If Turbine really wants to know why people quit playing then maybe they should take a look at their own actions and stop with the ham fisted administration.

Its not like they hadn't grandfathered other things in the game. Its not like they have fixed the problem with unusually high min ML on some items from some quests, I just picked some these up in Menechtaren two days ago. For years some quests generated unusually low ML, they broke all of those banked (like ml6 holy burst) items by raising ML making my effort to acquire them entirely wasted. Now they just want to screw over the players who have an item that is now below ML because that player played by the rules?

Vellrad
11-23-2013, 02:28 PM
How about Lailat? You know, the epic raid boss?

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't bring cannith crafted weapons to epic raid.

Propane
11-23-2013, 03:38 PM
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't bring cannith crafted weapons to epic raid.

Why not? You can "tune" the weapon for the type of DR the end boss has and be very effective. ESP with augment slot.

Changing Metalline away from a prefix mades no sense... after all the loot changes that I needed , I can not fathom why changing Metalline is even a thought.

If metalline can be EITHER or suffix or Perfix - great!

If switching Suffix only - BAD...

Vellrad
11-23-2013, 03:50 PM
Why not? You can "tune" the weapon for the type of DR the end boss has and be very effective. ESP with augment slot.

Changing Metalline away from a prefix mades no sense... after all the loot changes that I needed , I can not fathom why changing Metalline is even a thought.

If metalline can be EITHER or suffix or Perfix - great!

If switching Suffix only - BAD...

OK, maybe I would on new undergeared alt, but not with metalline.
If I'd have to craft a weapon for epic ADQ it would be holy burst cold iron of GCB.

HungarianRhapsody
11-23-2013, 04:41 PM
First you dismiss the value of a demon beater at all, and then you establish this by only looking at demons for whom demon beaters aren't needed. So, pretty much all of it.

How about Lailat? You know, the epic raid boss?

You mean the Lailat that I mentioned when I said that there was only one demon who actually deserved a DR beater? And that I already mentioned that you could easily craft a Holy Cold Iron of GEOB (or GLOB since that's cheaper) for her if you can craft a Metalline of GEOB? That Lailat?

Here it is again for easy reference:

For crafted beaters, I'd very much prefer +5 Holy Silver of GEOB. It's an extra 2d6 of damage on each hit and the enemies that have Cold Iron DR don't have a whole lot of it aside from Lailat.
and

Holy Silver of GEOB does an average of 7 damage more than Metalline Flametouched Iron of GEOB against demons with 0 DR (i.e. most demons). Against demons with dr 5/cold iron, it still does an average of 2 damage more than your weapon. The only demons against whom it does less damage is any demon with more than DR 7/cold iron. Since there are vanishingly few of those in the game, a Holy Silver of GEOB will be a better weapon against a large majority of demons (even demons with DR) than a Metalline Flametouched Iron of GEOB.

And if you have a serious need to go personally kick Lailit's behind with the best possible crafted beater, then you can still make a Holy or Holy Burst Cold Iron of GEOB that will be significantly better than the Metalline one.

If you're going to bring a crafted weapon to an Epic raid, then bring the right one. Why would you throw away 7 damage per hit? If you're Lailat hunting, then make a weapon for her. If you're not going after Lailat, then don't worry about the Demon DR since she's the only one who has a DR that you're going to need to really worry about.

EllisDee37
11-23-2013, 04:51 PM
You mean the Lailat that I mentioned when I said that there was only one demon who actually deserved a DR beater? And that I already mentioned that you could easily craft a Holy Cold Iron of GEOB (or GLOB since that's cheaper) for her if you can craft a Metalline of GEOB? That Lailat?Just so I'm clear, demon beaters are a pointless waste but you'll devote a weapon just for lailat?

I do not "hunt lailat," whatever that means, but my guild does the occasional ADQ guild run and it's nice to have a weapon for that. We also occassionally do elite HoX runs and it's nice to have a weapon for that too. What's even nicer is that they're the same weapon, reducing inventory clutter.

EllisDee37
11-23-2013, 05:01 PM
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't bring cannith crafted weapons to epic raid.So what's your LOB beater? Or Lolth, for that matter? How do they stack up to my +5 holy burst adamantine of greater construct bane and +5 holy burst of greater aberration bane weapons, I wonder?

Vellrad
11-23-2013, 05:33 PM
So what's your LOB beater? Or Lolth, for that matter? How do they stack up to my +5 holy burst adamantine of greater construct bane and +5 holy burst of greater aberration bane weapons, I wonder?

For LoB I'd bring my eAGA, if I'd ever bother with flagging for raid.
For Lolth, I stay behind rock because of idiotic mana drain mechanism, but I'd use Cleaver with cold iron buff from artificer, or eAGA if there would be no arti.
On alt, I'd use 2 celestias on Lolth, and wouldn't bothered with killing LoB.

And yes, if I'd have to, I'd craft specialised beater: +5 HB <apprioprate metal type> of [greater apprioprate bane], but I would not craft metalline.

Teh_Troll
11-23-2013, 05:39 PM
For LoB I'd bring my eAGA, if I'd ever bother with flagging for raid.
For Lolth, I stay behind rock because of idiotic mana drain mechanism, but I'd use Cleaver with cold iron buff from artificer, or eAGA if there would be no arti.
On alt, I'd use 2 celestias on Lolth, and wouldn't bothered with killing LoB.

And yes, if I'd have to, I'd craft specialised beater: +5 HB <apprioprate metal type> of [greater apprioprate bane], but I would not craft metalline.

Lolth has no DR.

Celestia FTW for eveything else.

LOB? LOLz . . .

Farayon
11-23-2013, 06:02 PM
•NEW: Spell Song Vigor now only affects a single target (as per its description)

Bard need love!

This feature (1 song affecting entire party) was on small bit of Love for them -

Consider Leaving it the way it is on live or make it stronger (2 or 3 times at least)

Singing the song 6 times at the beginning of a raid in not fun...

Bards need love - it is the holiday season :)

I very much agree with this observation. Bards most certainly don't need any form of nerfing whatsoever.

Grecan
11-23-2013, 06:27 PM
NEW: Waterworks Exit Waypoint is now correctly labeled "Stormreach Harbor"


Finally, i'll be able to get out of WW

8-D

Nascoe
11-24-2013, 02:10 AM
Seriously? So if a party I am in wipes completely - We all have to recall, relog and reform if we aren't near a shrine and nobody wants to use a cake?

That is beyond pathetic. It's incompetent. You can't fix something properly so you punish everyone in such a heavy handed manner. Way to be professional. That doesn't look childish and asinine at all.

*edit* was clarified after I posted this is only Lama for now. But we all know it doesn't take much for things seen here to go live. My opinion stands irregardless.

I guess its time to use those Poincelot points to stock up on Cakes for this weekend!

Nascoe
11-24-2013, 02:20 AM
What changes did they do to bard?

From the release notes:
Bard Spellsinger:

NEW: Musical Studies and Advanced Musical Studies will now properly increase your Bard Songs per rest
NEW: Spell Song Vigor now only affects a single target (as per its description)
NEW: Most Bard songs granted by Spellsinger enhancements now have shorter singing times.

Bard Warchanter:

NEW: Ironskin Chant no longer triggers when using Inspire Courage
NEW: All ranks of Inspire Recklessness now give their listed amounts of Doublestrike
NEW: Words of Encouragement's hitpoint effect is no longer listed as "Rallying Cry"
NEW: Victory Song is now a toggled ability that grants full Base Attack Bonus when activated
NEW: The buff from Howl of the North now persists through death, rest, and zoning.
NEW: Most Bard songs granted by Warchanter enhancements now have shorter singing times.
Fixed typo in tooltip for Words of Encouragement.

Nascoe
11-24-2013, 02:56 AM
There was absolutely NO EXCUSE for breaking the loot tables by raising ML on some items to ridiculous levels. Then with no warning or even any real conversations punishing players then labeling them exploiters!
Players are punished for something they broke? Something that has no real effect? I have some low level toons that are almost entirely geared with "exploits". Do they honestly think I intend to play to endgame wearing an ml6 item that they broke to be ml8? So what if a level 28 is running around with a lvl 30 item. It has no effect in the grand scheme of the game. Eventually that toon will TR AND NOT BE ABLE TO USE IT UNTIL THEY REACH THE NEW ML.

In my time playing this is honestly the issue that has me closest to quitting. At this point Im not sure if Im more mad at the devs or enraged at the shortsighted players who support this stupidity. If Turbine really wants to know why people quit playing then maybe they should take a look at their own actions and stop with the ham fisted administration.

Its not like they hadn't grandfathered other things in the game. Its not like they have fixed the problem with unusually high min ML on some items from some quests, I just picked some these up in Menechtaren two days ago. For years some quests generated unusually low ML, they broke all of those banked (like ml6 holy burst) items by raising ML making my effort to acquire them entirely wasted. Now they just want to screw over the players who have an item that is now below ML because that player played by the rules?

While I find it hard to get as emotional about it as you seem to be, I completely agree that introducing burden of guilt to deal with all the (largely lower lvl) players that had items equipped that suddenly became higher ML items because Turbine changed them is really the wrong way to deal with this. I have some lower lvl guys who I was happy to have my crafted shield/armor with invulnerability on them and then had to remember not to change armor/weapon set when the ML were changed. Then came Burden of guilt and I have refrained from playing with most of those, because I was upset about having to make new items for them, because of a retroactive change by Turbine (invun. is now pretty useless at the higher ML). I now just tumble over to the daily token give with these guys, in the hope of getting a reason to play them.

Grecan
11-24-2013, 10:40 AM
While I find it hard to get as emotional about it as you seem to be, I completely agree that introducing burden of guilt to deal with all the (largely lower lvl) players that had items equipped that suddenly became higher ML items because Turbine changed them is really the wrong way to deal with this. I have some lower lvl guys who I was happy to have my crafted shield/armor with invulnerability on them and then had to remember not to change armor/weapon set when the ML were changed. Then came Burden of guilt and I have refrained from playing with most of those, because I was upset about having to make new items for them, because of a retroactive change by Turbine (invun. is now pretty useless at the higher ML). I now just tumble over to the daily token give with these guys, in the hope of getting a reason to play them.I don't really understand your point. If you were playing with those toons of yours that had higher ML items than their level equiped, after they raised that ML, but before the Burden of Guilt (BoG) was introduced, wouldn't you sooner or later outgrow them as you leveled up and unequip them in order to wear more powerful gear?


It wasn't fun for me to see that the ML of various weapons i had (probably all of them upgraded in the Risia event some years back) went up by 2-4 levels, and certainly not nice to discover that some other weapons i had used a lot in the past and i have made BtC are now completely impossible to use by that very same character, because they changed the required alignment (True Chaos of Pure Good req. alignment changed from Chaotic to Good). If i had one or more of these equiped while the changes were made, perhaps i would try to keep them on me, but the truth is they weren't so powerful as to make or break my char...
The truth is, only one toon of mine was burdened by an item he was wearing, but i unequiped it even though he's only a mule, cause i still want him to run when going from the bank to the auction house. And of course, being a mule, he didn't need it anyway.


So, i think that the people who are really troubled with the BoG are those who don't want to give up on gear/weapons that are truly much more powerful than the stuff they should be able to use going by the rules. And probably either most of those players are at level cap already, so they're never gonna outgrow that gear/weapons, or those items are of very high level - which has the same result.

I also think that a portion of them must have unequiped the items that burdened them, so probably it's not a very large number of players who continue to defy the BoG.
If that number is really low, maybe the devs shouldn't be trying too hard to rectify them - i mean, maybe it's not worth risking to introduce serious bugs that affect every player in order to bring to the correct path a small minority... Maybe they should be aiming their efforts exclusively on those few, and i wonder why it's so difficult for them to do so (if it's really a problem worth spendiing dev-time on).

afroblue
11-24-2013, 05:53 PM
I agree that the "Spell song vigor" fix is unnecessary. Bards already are one of the weakest classes of the game, if not the weakest. WC capstone is useless: it only lasts 12 seconds, if you cast it again during a fight, you'll end dead before the song is over. Fatesinger capstone is also useless, since it does not work against bosses.
Why bards have to be punished more? I love to play them, but I am not surprised when I see a first time sorcerer can be more effective than my completionist bard. In particular, in the SS tree you have to spend many useless points to be able to get SS vigor and Sustaining song.

There was only one reason to be a SS: the spell song vigor working on party. If it will be fixed, SS will be dead again, like it used to be before the enhancement revamp.

HungarianRhapsody
11-24-2013, 07:19 PM
Just so I'm clear, demon beaters are a pointless waste but you'll devote a weapon just for lailat?

I do not "hunt lailat," whatever that means, but my guild does the occasional ADQ guild run and it's nice to have a weapon for that. We also occassionally do elite HoX runs and it's nice to have a weapon for that too. What's even nicer is that they're the same weapon, reducing inventory clutter.

Demon specific beaters in general are a waste of time aside from Lailat since Devil beaters do exceptionally well against most Demons and most Demons don't have a meaningful amount of DR. Any Demon with DR 7 or less will take just as much damage (or more) from a Holy Silver [whatever] of GEOB than it will from a Metalline Flametouched Iron [whatever] of GEOB. There are many weapons that would do well against Lailat. If you want to craft a weapon to go after Lailat, then craft a good one instead of crafting one that's mediocre against both Demons and Devils.

As for whether I'll personally devote a weapon just for Lailat, a lot of that depends on whether they allow the "don't come back to life when you release" to go live. If it goes live, then I'll be leaving the game because I just completely can't play like that. Just starting DDO is a massive chore and if I have to do that every time I die while soloing in a quest, then I just won't be able to play anymore.

Aelonwy
11-25-2013, 08:34 AM
•Bard Spellsinger:
•NEW: Spell Song Vigor now only affects a single target (as per its description)

Change it back please. You are very swift to change the description when it is less helpful to players rather than fix it to be truly useful or helpful. Spellsong Vigor working as it has been was thought to be a good thing for bards, especially bards that group, in a multi-player game, so put it back the way it was please and do the usual ... fix the description.

Thank you.

Wipey
11-25-2013, 08:49 AM
As for whether I'll personally devote a weapon just for Lailat...., .
Well, if you care about best dps on Lailat then you are in fury which has cold iron or you have it twisted.
When Cannith crafted was good, I made pair of Holy burst cold iron Greater Evil outsider bane, pair of HB silver lawful bane khops.
Then recrafted when we get 2w on ml 20 weapons. Then we got Citw weapons and number of weapons just became ridiculous.
If you gonna craft something, then better go for the best ( HB of Greater evil outsider bane on silver blank ). I agree with you, the rest is waste of bank/ inv space and materials.

voodoogroves
11-25-2013, 09:23 AM
•Bard Spellsinger:
•NEW: Spell Song Vigor now only affects a single target (as per its description)

Change it back please. You are very swift to change the description when it is less helpful to players rather than fix it to be truly useful or helpful. Spellsong Vigor working as it has been was thought to be a good thing for bards, especially bards that group, in a multi-player game, so put it back the way it was please and do the usual ... fix the description.

Thank you.

Bards are too strong; need nerf. Quit talking; you're supposed to sing - not spoken-word ranting.

Saravis
11-25-2013, 09:36 AM
Bards are too strong; need nerf. Quit talking; you're supposed to sing - not spoken-word ranting.


I have to wonder, how in the world do single target songs even work? Is everyone but the target holding their ears? Is the target using headphones?

Krelar
11-25-2013, 10:38 AM
I have to wonder, how in the world do single target songs even work? Is everyone but the target holding their ears? Is the target using headphones?

The song is tailored to the person you are singing it to? If the bard is sining a song about how great Bob the barbarian is, Sue the Sorcerer probably isn't very interested.

eecsman
11-25-2013, 07:00 PM
•Bard Spellsinger:
•NEW: Spell Song Vigor now only affects a single target (as per its description)

Change it back please. You are very swift to change the description when it is less helpful to players rather than fix it to be truly useful or helpful. Spellsong Vigor working as it has been was thought to be a good thing for bards, especially bards that group, in a multi-player game, so put it back the way it was please and do the usual ... fix the description.

Thank you.

Yes, please change it back so that this song is a group effect. Spell Song Vigor is one of the few really worthwhile enhancements in either Bard enhancement tree.

Drwaz99
11-25-2013, 08:21 PM
•Bard Spellsinger:
•NEW: Spell Song Vigor now only affects a single target (as per its description)

Change it back please. You are very swift to change the description when it is less helpful to players rather than fix it to be truly useful or helpful. Spellsong Vigor working as it has been was thought to be a good thing for bards, especially bards that group, in a multi-player game, so put it back the way it was please and do the usual ... fix the description.

Thank you.

I don't even play a bard (but have thru 3 tr lives) but this is another bad change. Make it a group song please.

moo_cow
11-26-2013, 02:21 AM
No fix for wand and scroll mastery from Eldritch Knight? I checked through the release notes and it doesn't look it's in there at least.

oradafu
11-26-2013, 03:17 AM
I have to wonder, how in the world do single target songs even work? Is everyone but the target holding their ears? Is the target using headphones?

Bar scene in Top Gun.

afroblue
11-26-2013, 01:51 PM
Do you plan to fix Inflame from the warpriest tree? It is not mentioned as well, if it won't be fixed in the future, just let me know, I will remove it from my build and forget about it.
By the way, I took 2 favored soul levels to be able to use it... can I have a free lesser +1 heart to fix my build, in case you do not plan to fix the enhancement?

Gremmlynn
11-26-2013, 02:08 PM
Changing an effect's prefix/suffix status in lootgen has always had the same effect in cannith crafting.It did until the new lootgen system came about. Now they seem to be two different systems. Lootgen holy, for example, is nothing like crafted holy.

Grecan
11-26-2013, 03:16 PM
It did until the new lootgen system came about. Now they seem to be two different systems. Lootgen holy, for example, is nothing like crafted holy.You know what?

The game has always had a certain degree of complexity, which i like. But it looks like it's becoming more and more a real mess!

Complex is one thing, and mess is another...

It's a fact that i've been away from the game for much too long of time to adapt to all the changes and learn all the new stuff easily. But adding new systems and changing the old ones every now and then is only working well when it's well thought-out imo. And i'm sad to say that i'm having doubts that this is the case in general.

I'll give just one simple example, the change that was made from Striding items to Speed items. Not a major one, but imo it was one of the many changes towards the direction of messinesss, making things a bit more confusing - at least for myself. And i use this example cause i read they're thinking of retro-actively adjusting the old Striding items to become Speed items instead. This is a step towards fixing a (not very important) part of the mess imo.

And about crafting... If you go to the relative ddowiki page, you can see 11 different crafting systems.And if you take a look at one of them, the Augment crafting, it says "This crafting system introduced in Update 17 replaced the two older augment systems - Epic Augments, and Guild Augments (both older systems can still be used on legacy items that no longer drop in game)." So you have 3 different systems (old and new ones) co-existing in it. Now tell me, does this look a bit messy to you or not...?

Granted, it's tougher for a returning player like me... but should it be this way?

WilliamBraveheart
11-27-2013, 07:21 AM
BOOOOOOO on changing metalline to suffix. BOOOO I say!

Please don't let this mess up the metalline shard in cannith crafting. Metalline of Pure Good is nice to be able to craft for lives when I feel too lazy to make specialized weapons.

What do you mean boooo now make Holy of metaline

Scrag
12-04-2013, 03:21 PM
I don't even play a bard (but have thru 3 tr lives) but this is another bad change. Make it a group song please.

50 bucks says if its single target, you can't target yourself. And that blows chunks, because already we cant self-target with the skill boosting songs.