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View Full Version : Wallace the warrior poet, pure spellsinger melee, dc, healing



Rush007
11-21-2013, 12:18 PM
Atleast that is the goal. Going pure for the casting and extra spells at capstone and because it requires choice and challenge. You don't get easy feats and saves with 2 paladin or 2 monk or 2 fighter. Here is what I'm thinking, 36 point build.

Human

16 str + 5 tome + 2 level ups to qualify for overwhelming
8 dex
14 con
12 intel
8 wisdom
18 charisma + 5 level ups

8 Skill points a level

Core group:
Concentration
Haggle
Perform
Spellcraft
Heal
UMD
2 spare yet

Partial points:
Balance
Jump
Tumble

Plenty of skill point at 12 int and human can be changed to 8 int with no drawback so personal preference here.

Feats:

7 +1 Human heroic feats (not in leveling order)
spell focus enchantment
cleave
empower healing
heighten
greater spell focus enchantment
quicken
power attack
improved crit

3 epic
great cleave
inspire excellence
overwhelming critical

2 destiny
lasting inspiration
elusive target

Here the hard choices come. The melee line of feats cost the build 3 DC to the tune of 1 from stat points, 2 from feats by not being able to take epic spell focus and past life wizard. The feat line works with sword and board when piking or two handers with masters touch. So the possibility exists of cutting the melee feats to gain that DC back.

Easy Charisma 18 + 5 level up + 10 item + 3 insight + 1 exceptional + 2 ship + 2 inspire + 4 enhancements + 1 human + 2 capstone = 48

DC Breakdown

Spell DC 16 + 19 charisma + 5 item + 2 feats + 3 enhancements + 1 song + 3 magister = 49

A bit low, debuffing is in order and it is a reality in EE that you need to debuff anyway. Could get another 3 from ED charisma. I could see leading with fascinate, into a wail to drop saves enough to get them dancing and held or charmed. Maybe in groups your role will just be to debuff. No glory there but when do bards get that anyway?

Temp debuffs not all stack with one another
2 Fascinate all saves
2 Enthrall will only
10 Magister 15% on will
5 Crushing Despair weakend effect
2 Crushing Despair failed save
3 Hypnotisim weakend effect
10 Mind Fog failed save hard to use
2-8 Wail of bansee negitive levels saves debuff
1-2 Human charisma boost

ED's I could see this going in LD, Fatesinger with twists from magister for DC's. Enhancements looking at 41 spellsinger, 31 warchanter, 8 human. Melee damage should be decent, there is a lot added from songs, some from warchanter tree and stacking haste boost with damage boost from human. Momentum swing, magister enchantment focus +3 dc, and 15% -10 will save debuff priority for twists. Unearthly reactions, cocoon tier 1. 3, 2, 1 twists recommended at least.

So how would you build a pure spellsinger? What changes could be done to make this better?

unbongwah
11-21-2013, 12:44 PM
You forgot to mention the other side of being an Enchanter: Spell Penetration. No Spell Pen feats means you'll be -8 behind a dedicated bardchanter.

elcagador
11-21-2013, 01:43 PM
If you want to meele the best I have seen is going with legendary dreadnought or Fury of the wild destiny, focusing on dps and hitpoints, forgetting spells dc, but keeping good spell penetration for ottos irresistable dance and keeping decent dc for your songs. From what I know, you can't multiclass a Bard with a Paladin or a Monk, so your better multiclass choices would be rogue and/or fighter. Another option could be a pure healer/buff/ cc support Bard but not experienced on that (I guess going spellcaster for max dc and sp with energy burst twisted could be a good choice there)

Rush007
11-21-2013, 01:46 PM
You forgot to mention the other side of being an Enchanter: Spell Penetration. No Spell Pen feats means you'll be -8 behind a dedicated bardchanter.

There is 5 spell pen in the spell singer tree, 2 from 1 past life wizard so 7 innate total. You can gain 8 for 3 feats, they would still ahead yep. Question is is it needed for anything but drow ?

Rush007
11-21-2013, 02:01 PM
If you want to meele the best I have seen is going with legendary dreadnought or Fury of the wild destiny, focusing on dps and hitpoints, forgetting spells dc, but keeping good spell penetration for ottos irresistable dance and keeping decent dc for your songs. From what I know, you can't multiclass a Bard with a Paladin or a Monk, so your better multiclass choices would be rogue and/or fighter. Another option could be a pure healer/buff/ cc support Bard but not experienced on that (I guess going spellcaster for max dc and sp with energy burst twisted could be a good choice there)

I want to melee, heal, and spell DC when possible not just melee. Switching cha lvl up to str yields 2 raw damage so negligible. You get +10 damage from one item now. What feats would change that would make losing the utility of casting as a pure build? A viable hold DC increases damage even if it takes a debuff. I got raked across the coals once for suggesting 3 spell penetration feats before for one spell which is what it is sounding like here too for otto's irresitible.

Song DC is a given, even split builds can hit max DC as it is based off a skill.

BoBoDaClown
11-21-2013, 03:56 PM
Honestly,

I don't think your CC (DC and Spell Pen) will cut it on difficult content (a top CCer will have DCs in the 60s).

It is hard to fit dps/healing/spell CC all on one bard - I think extra lives help by mitigating the SR problem.


Regardless, in terms of your original idea, would a PDK work? LRing the 1 fighter away? You lose overwhelming crit, but get better stat spead and can use cha for att and dam.

Rush007
11-21-2013, 04:13 PM
Honestly,

I don't think your CC (DC and Spell Pen) will cut it on difficult content (a top CCer will have DCs in the 60s).

It is hard to fit dps/healing/spell CC all on one bard - I think extra lives help by mitigating the SR problem.


Regardless, in terms of your original idea, would a PDK work? LRing the 1 fighter away? You lose overwhelming crit, but get better stat spead and can use cha for att and dam.

PDK could work but the gain would not be as much as one would think. The 5 stat gain from not dividing str and cha is 2 damage. Primal scream makes that a wash, +5 str, skaldic rage and plain rage mitigate it some.

BoBoDaClown
11-21-2013, 05:16 PM
PDK could work but the gain would not be as much as one would think. The 5 stat gain from not dividing str and cha is 2 damage. Primal scream makes that a wash, +5 str, skaldic rage and plain rage mitigate it some.

Sure. I can see that.

Also allows you to focus your stats more- gaining 1dc and some con. But for DPS str based is certainly better.

With the route your going, I' be tempted to just focus on dps and healing - fill those 2 party roles, and use songs and ottos for CC. Then you can focus on your melee, rather than splitting your focus.

Rush007
11-21-2013, 05:40 PM
Sure. I can see that.

Also allows you to focus your stats more- gaining 1dc and some con. But for DPS str based is certainly better.

With the route your going, I' be tempted to just focus on dps and healing - fill those 2 party roles, and use songs and ottos for CC. Then you can focus on your melee, rather than splitting your focus.

Dropping DC drops the reason to stay pure. But lets say we go with this. What does heighten, spell focus enchantment and greater spell focus change to ? Only 3 feats have been dedicated to DC's. THF I guess.

voodoogroves
11-21-2013, 05:43 PM
Dropping DC drops the reason to stay pure. But lets say we go with this. What does heighten, spell focus enchantment and greater spell focus change to ? Only 3 feats have been dedicated to DC's. THF I guess.

SF and GSF directly add +1 each.

They are also gating feats; the wiki doesn't show it but I swear the magister mastery ability was gated by SF feats (ie, you can only take 3 ranks if you have GSF).

Rush007
11-21-2013, 06:06 PM
SF and GSF directly add +1 each.

They are also gating feats; the wiki doesn't show it but I swear the magister mastery ability was gated by SF feats (ie, you can only take 3 ranks if you have GSF).

Nope only need the first one to unlock +3 twist from magister.

Sokól
11-22-2013, 03:31 AM
Honestly,

I don't think your CC (DC and Spell Pen) will cut it on difficult content (a top CCer will have DCs in the 60s).

It is hard to fit dps/healing/spell CC all on one bard - I think extra lives help by mitigating the SR problem.


Regardless, in terms of your original idea, would a PDK work? LRing the 1 fighter away? You lose overwhelming crit, but get better stat spead and can use cha for att and dam.

I think he just might pull it off by being a good debuffer.

When the cap was 20 I used to lie about my enchant dc´s to get into groups, on my first life sorc, never had a problem landing my cc because I was good at debuffing.

When things are breaking free there is always Otto's Irresistible Dance...

Spell pen will always be a problem.

Steevye
11-22-2013, 03:44 AM
I think he just might pull it off by being a good debuffer.

When the cap was 20 I used to lie about my enchant dc´s to get into groups, on my first life sorc, never had a problem landing my cc because I was good at debuffing.

When things are breaking free there is always Otto's Irresistible Dance...

Spell pen will always be a problem.

I do a lot of debuffing with my bard. Solo it means my cc lands on most everything, in groups it helps everyone else by weakening large mobs and allowing the "better" casters to land their spells. Maybe it's the new way of playing a bard, maybe not, but it generally works all right for me. It's not like bards have dps spells anyway so if you do the prepping, the deadlier casters can use their sp more appropriately.

When all else fails, there's always fascinate, enthrallment, dirge, song of capering, siren's, and chains of fate. That and a TWF bard (while not ideal) works well in minute long bursts with Turn the Tide. All in all, I've started viewing my bard's main role as a buffer, both for comrades and against enemies.

BoBoDaClown
11-22-2013, 10:55 AM
Dropping DC drops the reason to stay pure. But lets say we go with this. What does heighten, spell focus enchantment and greater spell focus change to ? Only 3 feats have been dedicated to DC's. THF I guess.

Yeah, probably THF, but also allows you to raise str and con, since you will no longer care about DCs. There is still value in staying pure because of the Heal spell. Dps/heal orientated bard would be cool.

You could also go 3xTWF, which synergises well with inspire courage and fatesinger, but I'm not sure how that stacks up against the synergy you have with cleaves and a Two Hander.

Maybe I'm showing my bias - I just don't find filling a secondary role that useful. I want to be able to go in and say with absolute confidence I can CC for the party, or heal the party.

Rush007
11-22-2013, 12:20 PM
I originally considered having hellball, ruin with feats of max and empower added instead of melee, maxing Cha. Mana expenditure was a big question mark if the bard sp pool could handle that. Has anyone tried this?

BoBoDaClown
11-25-2013, 04:15 PM
Sorry I have no experience with Helball.

Thinking about your build goal of DCs/DPS/healing, I would:

3xwizzy pastlife to make up for a lack of spell pen feats. This may be a bit of an effort, but seems the only way I can see your idea work in epic elite content.

Then I would:
Purple Dragon Knight (use a LR1 to get rid of the fighter level)
20 Bard


Cha: 18 + level ups
Con: 16
Dex: 15 +2 tome = 17 GTWF
Str 10 +3 tome = 13 PA


1 Human Feat: Empower Healing
7 Heroics: TWFx3, Heighten, Quicken, Power Attack, Improved Critical
3 Epics: Inspire Excellence, Spell Focus, Wizzy Pastlife

Other feats: Spell Pen, Spell Focus. Either of these could be swapped in for Improved Critical if you wielding keen weapons.

This would put you
Drow enhant= 1dc
+3 cha = 1.5 dc
Spell Focus and Bard Life = 2dc
4.5 dc behind a dedicated caster.

Gearing the character out, twists, destinies etc, should be able to get you to around 60DC, which would be very useful.

Spell Pen be 50odd, geared out, in the right destinies/twists (not at the same time as pushing you DC), so even lower than that should be fine for most things bar drow.

Healing would be solid.

DPS would be ok (nothing to write home about). High Charisma, TWF play nice with songs and fatesinger, Power Attack and Improved Crit.

That would be my idea.

Rush007
12-01-2013, 11:46 AM
Forgot to add cha tome so that is another 2-3 DC depending where it lands even so lower 50's. Another way to hit the DC's needed is the actual weapon itself. Consider Giant's Fist, not bad for dps, lowers will on hit. Hit the mob 5 times you have 5 more DC and that can be applied AOE with the cleaves. Also opens the door for improved sunder which doesn't care if you succeed, all you have to do is hit and get -3 to fort which would help wail and maybe shout which is a fort save. Its a stretch to make those work probably but is an interesting option. Don't know what feat to take out anyway.

On spell pen, not everything has it and spending three feats on it is expensive considering bards don't even have hold monster. End game right now does not have it. Hardest stretch is vale through MOTU, which has absurd amounts. Bards have tools to deal with this in fascinate, maybe greater shout. Make a cursepewing of improved shattermantle weapon, hit the mob with the spell pen once, try the hold. Can't rule out everything that is possible and not using this just lazy play.

Steevye
12-01-2013, 10:52 PM
On spell pen, not everything has it and spending three feats on it is expensive considering bards don't even have hold monster. End game right now does not have it. Hardest stretch is vale through MOTU, which has absurd amounts. Bards have tools to deal with this in fascinate, maybe greater shout. Make a cursepewing of improved shattermantle weapon, hit the mob with the spell pen once, try the hold. Can't rule out everything that is possible and not using this just lazy play.

Bards get hold monster, just not the mass spell. I use it frequently due to the added dps it offers (obviously).

As far as spell pen goes, I haven't noticed a lot of problems with my bard's rolls to overcome it. There are quite a few items and twists available to add to the score and therefore prevent the need to expend feats, or it seems that way at least. It's still nice, though, to be able to add an additional +8 from three feats if you fit them in, but depending on your build, it may not be necessary.