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FlaviusMaximus
11-21-2013, 10:50 AM
How effective are maxed out Turn Undead Clerics at turning EE undead and does Improved Turning from the Paladin KOTC tree stack with Improved Turning from the Radiant Servant tree?

Maxed out meaning 3x Cleric past lives, the appropriate gear and enhancements, and charisma based.

Not really interested in hearing about what Cleric builds are more effective than a Turn Undead build. It's flavor that I'm looking for. Just looking to get two specific questions answered so that I can determine if one would be worth rolling up.

Thanks

Panzermeyer
11-21-2013, 11:01 AM
How effective are maxed out Turn Undead Clerics at turning EE undead and does Improved Turning from the Paladin KOTC tree stack with Improved Turning from the Radiant Servant tree?

Maxed out meaning 3x Cleric past lives, the appropriate gear and enhancements, and charisma based.

Not really interested in hearing about what Cleric builds are more effective than a Turn Undead build. It's flavor that I'm looking for. Just looking to get two specific questions answered so that I can determine if one would be worth rolling up.

Thanks

Not sure about the Pally stacking or not. I suspect it should not, if it does, I would imagine that is not WAI.

This build seems to speak that a non turn maxed out cleric works great. So you max it out and then I would say it would work even better than great.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/418510-Silverdance-Advanced-TWF-Cleric-Build

FlaviusMaximus
11-21-2013, 11:15 AM
Not sure about the Pally stacking or not. I suspect it should not, if it does, I would imagine that is not WAI.

This build seems to speak that a non turn maxed out cleric works great. So you max it out and then I would say it would work even better than great.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/418510-Silverdance-Advanced-TWF-Cleric-Build

Unfortunately, since this build is before epic Gianthold and Shadowfell Conspiracy, it is difficult to tell if it can turn undead in those EEs. I'm guess since it says it turns undead in the 32-36 CR range, that's a no. I guess I should have specified that I'm wondering about the turn undead effectiveness in higher level EE content.

Panzermeyer
11-21-2013, 11:26 AM
Unfortunately, since this build is before epic Gianthold and Shadowfell Conspiracy, it is difficult to tell if it can turn undead in those EEs. I'm guess since it says it turns undead in the 32-36 CR range, that's a no. I guess I should have specified that I'm wondering about the turn undead effectiveness in higher level EE content.

Well give it a shot and report back to us =)

You can always do you free lesser out of the build if it does work.

guardianx2009
11-21-2013, 11:34 AM
Current maxxed out turn undead is around CR44, CR45 with feat thrown in. This is with Cleric Build.

With Morninglord, you can get as much as +6 levels from enhancement - that would push the limit up to 50-51.. assuming it stacks with the Cleric RS enhancement.

I do not know if the KOTC enhancement stacks, but you will be losing cleric levels by splashing, which lowers your turn level as a result.

Epic Gianthold skeles are around CR56 so they are basically un-turnable. There might be a some lesser EE CR undeads in stormhorns/wheloon, but I can't confirm that.

As it stands now, it looks like only Morninglord would stand a chance to turn the low CR50 mobs.

Enoach
11-21-2013, 12:12 PM
When considering the effectiveness of Turn Undead at any level from Lowest to EE you have to figure out the numbers based on Three aspects - Effective Cleric Level, The Highest you can turn and also the total amount of HD you can turn

1. Effective Cleric Level is based off How many Cleric Levels you have and Paladin Levels (Subtract 3 from the Paladin levels to get its conversion)
A Level 20 Cleric not in a destiny that raise cleric levels is 20, while in any ED of the Divine Sphere they would count up to 5 more levels depending on the ED Level

So considering MAX Levels on Class and ED
25 Base Levels
06 Cleric Past Lives (3x Cleric PL passive Feat)
01 Improved Turning Feat
03 Improved Turning (3 Tiers; Radiant Servant Tree) 2/4/6 to max HD
04 Spell Seek Eternal Rest
02 Eternal Faith or Sacred
---
41 Effective Turning Level

06 Bane of Restless (3 Tiers; Morninglord Tree) 2/4/6 to Max HD
---
47 Effective Turning Level

2. Turning check: A charisma check (1d20 + your charisma modifier) determines the hit dice of the most powerful enemy you can affect (see table below).

Here your Charisma Modifier comes into play, the higher your modifier the more likely you are to have a Higher "Strongest HD Creature" you can turn.


Turning check result Highest hit dice turned
up to 0.......ECL - 4
1-3.............ECL - 3
4-6.............ECL - 2
7-9.............ECL - 1
10-12.........ECL
13-15.........ECL + 1
16-18.........ECL + 2
19-21.........ECL + 3
22+...........ECL + 4

Using the above with a 30 Charisma (+10 Modifier) as a starting point the Lowest result with d20 + Charisma modifier would be an 11, highest 31

What this means is:

Roll of 1
41 Effective Turning Level
00 Result of 10 to 12 is a +0 to your Adjustment
02 Eternal Faith or Hallowed
---
43 Is the Highest HD creature you can effect

Roll of 12+
41 Effective Turning Level
04 Result of 10 to 12 is a +0 to your Adjustment
02 Eternal Faith or Hallowed
---
47 Is the Highest HD creature you can effect

For both of those numbers add +6 if the Morninglord Enhancements are present making this 49 and 53

3. Turning damage: Total number of hit dice you can affect is 2d6 + effective cleric level + charisma modifier

41 Effective Turning Level
10 Charisma Modifier
06 Silver Flame (Equipment)
06 Improved Turning (3 Tiers; Radiant Servant Tree)
---
63 Base HD Turnable

Lowest Roll of 2 means total of 65 HD Turnable
Highest Roll of 12 means total of 75 HD Turnable

Morninglord with 3 tiers of Bane of Restless will be 6 higher (71/81 respectfully)

Using the above you can plug in your own numbers (PL, feats, enhancements, and gear [of which you only need Eternal Faith and Silver Flame to max gear]) and determine if you are going to be capable of turning anything at those levels.

However, I will also point out that at higher levels there are Turnable Undead that are shielded with a Deathward that will need to be Dispelled prior to a Turn being effective.

FlaviusMaximus
11-21-2013, 12:34 PM
3. Turning damage: Total number of hit dice you can affect is 2d6 + effective cleric level + charisma modifier

41 Effective Turning Level
10 Charisma Modifier
06 Silver Flame (Equipment)
06 Improved Turning (3 Tiers; Radiant Servant Tree)
---
63 Base HD Turnable

Lowest Roll of 2 means total of 65 HD Turnable
Highest Roll of 12 means total of 75 HD Turnable

Morninglord with 3 tiers of Bane of Restless will be 6 higher (71/81 respectfully)


Thank you for the information.

So by total number of HD affected, does that mean per enemy or spread out among enemies? In other words, if there are three CR 50 undead enemies nearby and Turn Undead is used, will only one of them be turned if you have 81 HD turnable (50 of the 81 turnable goes to one enemy, the leftover 31 isn't enough to turn either of the other enemies) or can all three be turned (81HD turnable per nearby undead)?

guardianx2009
11-21-2013, 12:43 PM
A Level 20 Cleric not in a destiny that raise cleric levels is 20, while in any ED of the Divine Sphere they would count up to 5 more levels depending on the ED Level


This is incorrect. Unless they stealth changed it, ED's do not increase your turn level.



So considering MAX Levels on Class and ED
25 Base Levels
06 Cleric Past Lives (3x Cleric PL passive Feat)
01 Improved Turning Feat
03 Improved Turning (3 Tiers; Radiant Servant Tree) 2/4/6 to max HD
04 Spell Seek Eternal Rest
02 Eternal Faith or Sacred
---
41 Effective Turning Level

06 Bane of Restless (3 Tiers; Morninglord Tree) 2/4/6 to Max HD
---
47 Effective Turning Level


Eternal Faith grants total of +4 for purposes of turn level. Correct numbers are:

20 Base Levels
06 Cleric Past Lives (3x Cleric PL passive Feat)
01 Improved Turning Feat
03 Improved Turning (3 Tiers; Radiant Servant Tree) 2/4/6 to max HD
04 Spell Seek Eternal Rest
04 Eternal Faith
03 Radiant Servant TOD Ring Set
---
41 Effective Turning Level

06 Bane of Restless (3 Tiers; Morninglord Tree) 2/4/6 to Max HD
---
47 Effective Turning Level

04 Bonus from Turning Check
--
51 Maximum Turning Level


Turning Damage:
In EE, turning damage almost doesn't matter, the CR is so high that you are only going to turn 1 undead at a time.

I should point out that undead trash in EE FoT are CR42. As a result, can be turned.

guardianx2009
11-21-2013, 12:46 PM
Thank you for the information.

So by total number of HD affected, does that mean per enemy or spread out among enemies? In other words, if there are three CR 50 undead enemies nearby and Turn Undead is used, will only one of them be turned if you have 81 HD turnable (50 of the 81 turnable goes to one enemy, the leftover 31 isn't enough to turn either of the other enemies) or can all three be turned (81HD turnable per nearby undead)?

Spread out. The higher the CR, the less you'll be able to turn at time.

FlaviusMaximus
11-21-2013, 12:56 PM
Spread out. The higher the CR, the less you'll be able to turn at time.

Thanks for the info. Well that about kills that idea then. If turning isn't even going to be effective in those rare situations that I was hoping it would be, then this type of specialization wouldn't offer much. That's a shame, because I'm wanting to roll something flavorful right about now.

I am a bit surprised that destiny levels that raise Cleric level are not raising some of the turn numbers with it, since the two are linked. This is a bug I'm assuming?

guardianx2009
11-21-2013, 01:05 PM
Thanks for info. Well that about kills that idea then. If turning isn't even going to be effective in those rare situations that I was hoping it would be, then this type of specialization wouldn't offer much. That's a shame, because I'm wanting to roll something flavorful right about now.

I am a bit surprised that destiny levels that raise Cleric level are not raising some of the turn numbers with it, since the two are linked. This is a bug I'm assuming?

It's never been acknowledged one way or the other. 5 turn levels are significant.

Enoach
11-21-2013, 01:24 PM
This is incorrect. Unless they stealth changed it, ED's do not increase your turn level.

...

I was sure they counted when I was watching the numbers on my last life - I'm currently in the process of Leveling up the same character as a Morninglord so I'll have to check this again once I get to level 20 and can activate the ED (which is maxed out).

I forgot that the Radiant Servant Ring in TOD was +3 with over 60 tries and 3 end reward lists I've simply written that one off :)

If it is true then the max would be -4 to the Effective Levels I've outlined (-5 for the ED and +1 for the Radiant Ring)

redoubt
12-14-2013, 02:07 PM
I've not run a caster in a while, so I wasn't really thinking on it, but do epic levels NOT increase your effective caster level? Thus, you only get caster improvements from ED?

guardianx2009
12-15-2013, 09:05 AM
I've not run a caster in a while, so I wasn't really thinking on it, but do epic levels NOT increase your effective caster level? Thus, you only get caster improvements from ED?

Yes. Epic levels do not increase your caster level and you can only increase that via ED.

Turn levels on the other hand, cannot be increased via Epic Levels nor ED.

EllisDee37
12-15-2013, 09:49 AM
To clarify, there is very little benefit to going charisma-based on a turn build. The maximum possible charisma benefit is a 21 mod, since 1 is the minimum roll and 22+ is the best you can do on your charisma roll. This means that 52 charisma is "capped" for a turn build. More than 52 charisma is wasted.

But consider the following charisma totals and how they affect turning, keeping in mind you're rolling a d20:

52 charisma:
1+: ECL+4

40 charisma:
1-3: ECL+2
4-6: ECL+3
7+: ECL+4

28 charisma:
1-3: ECL
4-6: ECL+1
7-9: ECL+2
10-12: ECL+3
13+: ECL+4

I could see aiming for 52 cha on a turn build, but geez, even 40 looks reasonably sufficient to me. Heck, 28 is probably functional.

I'm speaking purely in terms of the mechanics of how charisma affects turning, not specifically about effectiveness on endgame EE undead mobs.

sirgog
12-15-2013, 05:33 PM
Whilst turning isn't particularly useful on EE (as stated, you can't realistically turn more than one undead at a time and a 20/day Power Word Kill for undead is not worth building around), it is absolutely, positively insane for heroic levelling.

The turning radius is enormous - it seems larger than DBF radius - and in heroic elite content, once you pick up the tier 2 Radiant Servant enhancements, you will kill everything in radius unless its CR is significantly higher than your level. In Delara's part 4 with 6 cleric levels I could kill everything except the Skeleton Arcuses and Wight Priests every time (and those died more often than not), and in Bloody Crypt (7 cleric levels) you can kill everything.

Last night running Bloody Crypt I kept annoying the party by orange or red alerting the place - then 'turn, turn' and alert is gone completely. It's rare to see one person with 125+ kills in a full group zerg of that quest (usually it's ~60 per quadrant).