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View Full Version : Also, Random Dungeons!!! a Re-Suggestion.



Certon
11-20-2013, 05:18 PM
Set up a Random Dungeon generator. Let people choose which environment to use, the difficulty, presence of traps, monster density, and shrine density. Each one of these factors tweaks the XP a marginal amount.

The dungeon is generated, and upon completion, the toon is awarded XP and perhaps some kind of collectible they can turn in for items on an ever-growing list.

Hafeal
11-20-2013, 05:24 PM
I think this is a bigger endeavor than you imagine using DDO's engine; but I am no software engineer.

I do wonder if it would be possible to create 1 dungeon that had an ability to have random elements to it; ala the magical witches' Hut from old AD&D days (what was the name of it?). So, for example, it could have a series of portals and the portals have random spawn rooms that you need to complete to get to the end. Just a thought anyway.

Darkvx
11-20-2013, 06:23 PM
Sounds great on paper but it ruin current quest.

Example

Ever quest is randomly generated and as such is a new quest. So every run would be elite for the BB. Players would pick a short quest no traps, low mob density and low shrine density, then everyone wait at the start while on monk speed runs to the end rinse repeat.

Now they could have several quest maps where there can be several layout with locked gates/doors like Dirty Laundry making it a changing labyrinth. There is already a random element in the game with rare encounters, random traps like Kings forest.

It be intresting but i dont think it could ever be 100% random (not even 50%)

droid327
11-21-2013, 04:19 AM
I don't think you could have random generated dungeons in the current engine....I suggested something a while back similar, though, and that was having prebuilt "mini-dungeons" that could be randomly strung together to make, basically, a linear adventure zone you could run through for Slayer deeds and random encounters.

ReaperAlexEU
11-21-2013, 12:00 PM
the key phrase here is procedural generation, and yes it is quite possible to do what you want, but you'd probably be disappointed with the results

there are many games out there with procedurally generated content, heck diablo has used that from the start! the new NWO game would be easy to convert due to its tile based level design. hellgate: london was a first/3rd person mix between FPS and MMO that was procedural.

the problem is the levels and quests feel samey very quickly. you don't get the same thrill of exploring a procedural dungeon as you get with a hand crafted one.

it's kinda hard to describe, but you won't feel like you are exploring a real place. it will feel like what it is, a set of rooms strung together.

now you can do a lot of work on a procedural algorithm to help make it feel interesting, but at the end of the day you will be relying on random luck to get that spark of interest, instead of paying a designer to create that spark of interest. sure it means we get content on a slow drip feed, but the chances of getting high quality content are a lot higher with hand crafted dungeons than they are with procedural content.

btw i have a lot of respect for the devs that make such algorithms, i'm a developer myself and that is quite a bit beyond me. i want to enjoy such content but despite my ability to appreciate their work the gamer in me is still coloured unimpressed.

Mjolnyr
11-24-2013, 05:42 PM
Set up a Random Dungeon generator. Let people choose which environment to use, the difficulty, presence of traps, monster density, and shrine density. Each one of these factors tweaks the XP a marginal amount.

The dungeon is generated, and upon completion, the toon is awarded XP and perhaps some kind of collectible they can turn in for items on an ever-growing list.

Completely objecting this suggestion.

There are already some quests with random locations of traps and/or of several different maze layouts. Turbine's level designers have provided sufficient variety, IMO.

There's no REAL random 3D dungeon ATM, especially in the scale of current DDO quests. Those so-called "random generated" maps would be either simply plain, filled with massive stuck points / glitches, and the progress would be of poor complexity.

Even a dungeon with fixed layout could be fun and worth re-playing in many different ways. Designers could put forked paths to the quest goal, or different approaches in the progress. The new quest in recent update: A Study of Sable, is a good example. The progress isn't single-lined, players have to interact with NPCs and make correct decisions. And, the maze is also semi-random. I'd rather like to see more quests designed in this great quality, rather than the random dungeon generator you mentioned.

bsquishwizzy
11-26-2013, 12:00 PM
I think this is a bigger endeavor than you imagine using DDO's engine; but I am no software engineer.

I do wonder if it would be possible to create 1 dungeon that had an ability to have random elements to it; ala the magical witches' Hut from old AD&D days (what was the name of it?). So, for example, it could have a series of portals and the portals have random spawn rooms that you need to complete to get to the end. Just a thought anyway.


They already kind of do it now, and it’s called King’s Forest. They have maybe 50 – 75% of what they need for a random dungeon adventure right there, with their spawning rare encounters.

I did a post on this a few months ago. The only thing they need to do would be to add mini-bosses, and an end-boss, which wouldn’t be all that hard to do. With a little ingenuity, they could even have encounters with connecting story lines.

I mean, it is easy to have a group run around in Kings Forest for hours dealing with those random rare encounters, and finding a new one every now and again that you haven’t seen before (or don’t remember encountering). It is really rather engaging.

Oh, and the Hut was that of Baba Yaga, who is also a character from Russian / Slavic folklore.

bsquishwizzy
11-26-2013, 12:18 PM
Sounds great on paper but it ruin current quest.

Example

Ever quest is randomly generated and as such is a new quest. So every run would be elite for the BB. Players would pick a short quest no traps, low mob density and low shrine density, then everyone wait at the start while on monk speed runs to the end rinse repeat.

Now they could have several quest maps where there can be several layout with locked gates/doors like Dirty Laundry making it a changing labyrinth. There is already a random element in the game with rare encounters, random traps like Kings forest.

It be intresting but i dont think it could ever be 100% random (not even 50%)

Nothing in software is ever 100% random, nor should it be.


the key phrase here is procedural generation, and yes it is quite possible to do what you want, but you'd probably be disappointed with the results

there are many games out there with procedurally generated content, heck diablo has used that from the start! the new NWO game would be easy to convert due to its tile based level design. hellgate: london was a first/3rd person mix between FPS and MMO that was procedural.

the problem is the levels and quests feel samey very quickly. you don't get the same thrill of exploring a procedural dungeon as you get with a hand crafted one.

it's kinda hard to describe, but you won't feel like you are exploring a real place. it will feel like what it is, a set of rooms strung together.

now you can do a lot of work on a procedural algorithm to help make it feel interesting, but at the end of the day you will be relying on random luck to get that spark of interest, instead of paying a designer to create that spark of interest. sure it means we get content on a slow drip feed, but the chances of getting high quality content are a lot higher with hand crafted dungeons than they are with procedural content.

btw i have a lot of respect for the devs that make such algorithms, i'm a developer myself and that is quite a bit beyond me. i want to enjoy such content but despite my ability to appreciate their work the gamer in me is still coloured unimpressed.

The biggest problem with Diablo was the fact that after you finished you could re-play the game…but it was basically the same experience – there was nothing that changed things around from the last time you ran the dungeon.

The key with implementing a random dungeon like the one being requested is:
1) You have to set a defined level range. This allows you to create an array of random encounters that are level-appropriate and somewhat connected.

2) You have to have a very large map so as to mix up where and when you can place certain key encounters. It has to have a wide range of geographic features to mix things up a bit and to make the random encounters immersive.


3) You don’t do it in a Rogue or Mines of Moria-like fashion. Randomly encountering and killing stuff in a non-repeatable maze gets very old, very quickly. Give it a purpose.

As I pointed out before, King’s Forest is almost a half-step between the old-time wilderness areas, and a full-blown random quest. It has a large enough map with enough geographical features to place a large number of “random” encounters that can be interconnected in a fairly linear story line. All they would need to do is add a couple of mini-bosses and a boss fight. Done.

Again, you can spend hours in Kings Forest just running around and doing the random rares that spawn. All you need to do it revise that a tad, add a somewhat connected story line, and you have something close to what everyone wants. It is possible. It can be done. And it can be done with what already exists.

I agree that a fully-designed dungeon is probably more immersive, but to be honest running the same immersive dungeon twice in a life, over the course of several lives gets just as boring.

snowdog13
11-26-2013, 12:46 PM
I think this is a bigger endeavor than you imagine using DDO's engine; but I am no software engineer.

I do wonder if it would be possible to create 1 dungeon that had an ability to have random elements to it; ala the magical witches' Hut from old AD&D days (what was the name of it?). So, for example, it could have a series of portals and the portals have random spawn rooms that you need to complete to get to the end. Just a thought anyway.

Having just the same thoughts about varied adventures, and it turned into a wish list quickly. But, I think they should have something along these lines:
1) Same dungeons already in place, same layout, but new monsters and new treasure types. Nothing affecting story arcs.
2) Single dungeon that can be run like "random dungeon" of medium length or so. No epic gear, just level appropriate coin and perhaps basic consumables.
3) A "OG" (Original Gamer) Island where you play classics like, "B2; The Keep on the Borderlands,"U1; The Sinister Secret of Salmarsh," and "G1; G1 Steading of the Hill Giant Chief" They could add on every few months or something. Even have XP party contests like tournaments.
4) Member submitted Adventures (on paper of course) that can be turned into ddo adventures. I'm not saying anything I'd make would be good enough, but I played a ton of d&d with DM's who made their own adventures, and many of these folks were brilliant and their adventures immaculate.
No offense at all to any of the current adventures and campaigns and everyone who makes ddo go. I like ddo more than any other rpg. It translates well, is fun and challenging, and I gladly pay the VIP premium for this game. No, this is nothing but nostalgia, and I think it would really attract the thousands like me, who played basic, then ad&d (up to 3.5), and are fondly connected to d&d's history to become life long ddo minions, passing it on to our kids.